S1 Ep17: 3 Years Later He Died Again / Jonathan Ashford & Elise Phipps (Part Two)

In Part One, Jonathan Ashford described being a driven tech executive who had a powerful near death experience (NDE) — and came back changed beyond recognition. In Part Two, the story goes further than anyone expected. Jonathan reveals the messages that started arriving months in advance, pinpointing an exact time and location: 4:30 a.m., deep in the Moab desert, on the third anniversary of his death. He walked in not knowing if he'd walk out.

Jonathan says, during his second death, he was somewhere else entirely — a place he calls "the space between spaces." When he came back, so did pieces of his humanity he thought were gone for good: taste, desire, the ability to fall for someone. 

That someone is Elise Phipps, who joins the conversation to tell her side — how she found her way to Jonathan through a small Idaho town, a wave of second-hand recommendations, and a first meeting that left her without a single question left to ask. Together they trace the eerie synchronicities that followed, and a bond that developed without it ever feeling like a choice.

It's a story about surrender, about what's left of a person after everything material has been stripped away twice — and about what starts to grow back. 

Jonathan Ashford 

https://www.jonathanashford.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Then he had another experience.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

You died again? I see both heads turned. Like what? What was his other experience at least he's referring to?

SPEAKER_01 0:16

I had an experience in the Moab desert where I came out kind of changed. Out of the desert changed. What happened? I ended up dying again.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

You did. I was right. He died again. So you died again?

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

Our world is magnificent. Filled with life in every imaginable form. But what if at the root of all of these diverse forms there was one energy? One conscious energy that created everything we know by becoming everything we know.

SPEAKER_04 1:05

Including you. Come with us as we peek behind the curtain of what we call reality and explore the limitless wonders of consciousness in the realization lab.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Set the scene on broken man.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

In part one of this episode, Jonathan Ashford described how he was a successful tech executive who was driven by his own ambitions.

SPEAKER_05 1:33

And then he suddenly died of sepsis.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

During his death, innumerable secrets of creation were revealed to Jonathan, and when he came back, he was a changed man. But things were about to get even crazier. Jonathan's significant other, Elise Phipps, was planning to just observe the podcast, but Jay pulled her into the session to get her side of the story.

SPEAKER_05 2:06

However, so far, Elise's role in this amazing story has yet to be revealed.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

So Jonathan Ashford, you have died. Still does. But your life has changed enormously. Yes. So I want to talk about those changes, and I want to talk about how Elise Phipps fits into your life and into this amazing story. So uh David. I was going to I've seen you before. Are you how are you doing with the story so far?

SPEAKER_03 2:57

I've worked through the panic. Okay. In all I'm gonna see. Um so but I've made it through.

SPEAKER_04 3:03

Well, he had a very pleasant experience. You just heard the story and had a terrible experience. All right. So what I'd love to explore how you've changed now that you've come back and what's going on in your life now. Yeah. All the mysterious elements in this room and elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Okay. Uh some of the more immediate changes. Um within three days, I started seeing orbs of light in the sky at night.

SPEAKER_04 3:26

What does an orb in the sky at night look like? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Uh imagine a star, but much bigger. Uh-huh. Um a silvery, bluish, whitish light that manifests and moves across the sky. What is it? Do you know? I recognized it immediately through feeling. Um so again, on the other side, everything for me was feeling. The closest word we have might be called consciousness. Okay. So you could say consciousness manifests in the sky in a way that I could communicate with and experience. It's kind of like the first night I saw them, it was kind of like, oh, hey, hey guys. Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

Um Are they coming to check in on you or is this happening all the time?

SPEAKER_01 4:12

I recognize that they're always around, they're always out there. Yeah, they communicate with me, they've given me things, um, knowledge in some ways, even blog posts at times. But I have a constant communication with what I experienced on the other side. That's just one of the ways it manifests.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

Would you call those orbs or those presences uh spirit guides? Would that be a term that would apply?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I would say it's more beyond uh identity. Like what would you look like as a soul? It doesn't have a look, right? It doesn't have a name.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

Uh oh, so spirit guide feels like an uh an individual, a a specific thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

It would probably disappear if you called it that. But it it's sometimes I call them the fingertips of God. You know, it's like this light shows up in the darkness and then it disappears, kind of just to let you know that it's there. I feel love when I experience them. Do you only see them at night? I don't. I see them during the day. I've had them in rooms as big as people. I've had six-foot orbs in the room. Um, I've experienced them in visions, dreams, basically always.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

It's a part of your reality now.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Yeah. Again, it's not foreign to me because it's more of a feeling that I experienced on the other side. So when I see an orb, I don't yes, it looks like an orb of light, but it's more about the feeling that I recognize from it.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

Right. And it feels like this connection to the experience you had. Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

Well, that's pretty fascinating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

What are the other what I recognized one of the big changes right away, like first day kind of thing, was I could never go back to a job, specifically that one, where I manipulated other humans for my personal gain. Uh-huh. So it's like you have a team of people, you move them in certain ways in certain directions, so that you make your bonus kind of thing. I need to grow a company a certain percentage, so I will I don't care if you're going through divor uh divorce, I need you here, right? It's just this knowing that that life that I had lived no longer applied. So walking away from everything immediately. Career is over that day. I had boats and toys and money and a house and uh all the gear, outdoor gear I could shake a stick at, and it was kind of like none of this applies anymore. It was just recognizing that that life had been lived materialistically to fill a hole, which you could say is the lack of love. So find it in all the experiences, find it in all the things, and realize that the hole is bottomless because you're filling it with all the wrong stuff.

SPEAKER_04 6:45

That that's sort of the bottom line of life. Everyone is out there trying to fill this hole because they want to fill it with love, correct. And they're putting all this other crap in it. Yep. And that's just everyone.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

I was the epitome of the song Looking for Love in all the wrong places. I just looked everywhere but the space that I should have been looking at. Uh so I just started eliminating everything. I started removing everything. Um, interestingly, I had changed so much. Friends dropped off, even family members. Uh, everyone recognized something had happened, and I was not that person anymore. And it was kind of like too weird for them. Uh, I still experienced that in a grocery store. I'll walk by people I hung out with for years and they'll they'll look away and look down the aisle just so they don't have to make eye contact.

SPEAKER_04 7:33

They don't vibrate with you at in this.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

You know, I was the guy who would rip off his shirt in a club or dancing on top of a bar doing shots with a bunch of people, and it was like, where's that guy? Right? Where'd he go? It's just too much for a lot of people. So, you know, like 99% of the people walked away, and I don't blame them. Um, I'm not that same person, but yeah, life changed immediately. Um, there was this period of maybe a year to a year and a half of acclimating to certain gifts. Dreams weren't dreams anymore. I was getting visions during the day, um, psychic messages, predictions were coming true. Um, things like I predicted the L LA wildfire three days before it started. How would that information like take the wildfire? That one in particular, I was in a a very small meditation with maybe like six people, a private meditation, and I walked out of that and I just said LA's about to burn. I just knew it. It just this this cognizance washed over me, and I said, LA's about to burn.

SPEAKER_04 8:37

And you were you weren't even in LA.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

No, lives in Idaho. And it was like I would receive things like that, earthquakes, you know, an avalanche in I think it was Switzerland that devoured an entire village a few months back. I get information like this, not to be like, oh no, pick up the phone, call 911. Like if I had called, who was I gonna call in LA? Get me the mayor immediately. You know, it's like, what do you do with that? But there was somebody who was sitting in that room who had family in LA. I know now that that person may have called their family.

SPEAKER_04 9:09

So you feel the purpose of this information is actually to help people?

SPEAKER_01 9:13

It's both. For example, earthquakes in Thailand, off the coast of Maine, things like that. Who am I calling? Right. Right? It's all just information. If you're supposed to do something, you'll be guided to it. Right. I say the experience is the message. You experience that, which means you're still plugged in. You're right where you need to be. Don't change anything. Right. You're still seeing kind of behind the curtain. You don't need to adjust. It's not all rainbows and kittens. Like there are dark things. I know when people will pass, I know when friends are gonna pass, you know, I know how they're gonna go. Some of it's wonderful and I can help people with, and other it's just like this knowing that you have to sit with.

SPEAKER_04 9:49

A lot of people I hear say when they get this kind of information, they learn to shut it down because it's too much. Are you feel do you feel inclined to do that?

SPEAKER_01 10:00

No, I kind of I'm not supposed to. I'm supposed to feel it all like being here for the last few days in Los Angeles has been very difficult because of what I feel. I feel a lot. I feel a lot on a lot of people, I feel a lot in areas. I we drove by Malibu, you know, where they're the skeletons of what would be homes. Uh you just feel and I feel a lot of sadness and things passing through these areas. So I'm not supposed to mute myself to it. I'm supposed to use it in a way to help others. Right. And if I did shut it down, I would be protecting myself. Right. And I was told on the other side that you're returning without a self. It's don't reach for anything. Very specifically, the message was receive only what you are given, take nothing for yourself, which was a multi-dimensional message because if I start reaching for myself, like, oh, I want something, I'm rebuilding a self that has died. Right. So I just have to sit in this place and you know, it is a shit sandwich every once in a while. It's like it's not all great, and it is taxing quite a bit. Um, and you know, I have a lease to help me manage that now, but it is a process to live and try to be normal, right? To try and fit in in society when I feel everything. So you do have a lease now. I do.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

How did Elise show up? So Elise, you guys showed up at my house. You seem uh incredibly connected, you know, very, very bonded on a very deep level. And yet, from what I understand, uh you haven't been together all that long. How does this story uh intertwine with your with your life?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

I moved to Idaho last October.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

When I was there, I kept hearing Jonathan's name from a number of friends. Like, yo, you should go talk to this guy. And at that point, he was still doing a lot of one-on-ones. He's stopped doing that since. And I heard it maybe for a good month. And you know when you hear it enough times where you're like, okay, I guess I guess I'll listen to this. Wait, let's back up for a second.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

So you moved to Idaho. Why did you move to Idaho?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

When I when we came over your house, I mentioned I lived in Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

What were you doing in Costa Rica?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

I had moved down, I went on a on a surf trip and three days into the surf trip bought a house and was like, Oh my god, this is the way to live. I was working for the Department of Defense at that time.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

And tried to do that life for a little bit, eventually decided to go back to school. I'd always had a lot of passion for health. Uh-huh. So I started an integrated medicine program. Oh, cool. And I started a clinic down there.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

You started a health clinic in Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Wow. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

But after coming back from Costa Rica to the States, after that chapter ended, it was after COVID, and the States was a very different place. It was very isolated. There's a lot of fear. Uh, I was trying to replicate what I experienced in Costa Rica in a place, trying to find a place. So I was looking for a lot of nature, I was looking for a community, I was looking for neighbors who depend on one another. And I visited a girlfriend out in Idaho. And as soon as I got to the town that he and I both live in now, it was like, wow, this is everything I've been looking for.

SPEAKER_06 13:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

And it's surrounded by water and mountains and just very small town.

SPEAKER_04 13:27

And you're hearing Jonathan's name is getting bandied about, people are trashing it left and right. And uh horrible.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Avoid this person at all costs. Yeah, he kept being recommended to me.

SPEAKER_04 13:39

Recommended because now that now that you've had your experience, you're actually helping people and you're Yeah, it took took a good year and a half before I stepped out to do that.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Uh I actually waited to be a part of two of the world's largest research studies to kind of get yes, you had it. I just felt this weird responsibility that I wasn't going to speak about it until I knew for sure a thousand percent. So I started stepping out and just giving small talks. I I think I've given 70, 72 small talks in a spiritual bookstore for 30 to 50 people. And of course, everyone would come, the those who just lost a spouse or you know, the cancer person just diagnosed with cancer, afraid of dying. And I would just sit with people, I would just help them by donation only. You know, I would uh turn it down half the time. I just knew that I could help people just by speaking about what I experienced. So I was in the small town trying to talk to basically anybody who wanted to, and I would meet with anybody. So my name was getting around as hey, this guy had this experience, he's local, you should talk to him. And uh that's where I had ended up meeting some of Elise's contacts.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

I had reached out to him to schedule a one-on-one because I'd heard his name so many times, and at that point I didn't know what he did, and his website still was listing just kind of like psychic reading. So I was like, sure, I'm between things. I just moved to Idaho. Like, should I should I live in this place or this place? Should I rent this place? Should I take this job?

SPEAKER_04 15:11

And it was also you couldn't like the universe is throwing you in that direction, and you're like, I I I'm not an idiot, I'm gonna go go have a session.

SPEAKER_00 15:18

Yeah, yeah. We met at a park in Idaho, it's very cold by November, you know, it's freezing. And we both come in parkas and are shivering. And I had my list of questions ready. And I sat down and I didn't know how to start. And he was like, How about we start by I'll tell you my story? And I think it was a bit of a shorter version, but somewhat of what you know he shared with you guys. And at that point hearing that, I was just like, I don't I don't have any questions anymore, you know. After you hear about the experience of everything.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

Just like David, he's got no more questions. I'm good, I'm good, I'm good now. I'm ready. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

And I just felt so at peace during that time and not knocking people I've worked with before, just been in the corporate world with, but it was also such a rare experience to sit with a man as a female and just feel like this person wants absolutely nothing from me. Like this person is just here to help and to share. And that alone was very healing for me and comforting. But the story, and I remember going back to my rental place afterwards, and same thing as what he said, just kind of staring at the wall or laying down on the couch for hours and feeling so complete and at peace. And and going back to the one-on-one when we were walking away from our time together, I turned around, I was like, Oh, I never asked you what you died of. Like, what did you know, what happened? And he said, Sepsis. And I was like, What? Like, that's what I do for a living. Like, you know, was it mold? Was it what happened? And I just in that moment offered. I was like, Are you are you getting help now? And he said, No, I've been told that I'm gonna be healed. And I was like, I will help you. Like, do you want help? I'm here to help. And he didn't take me up on it and I I kept offering and was sincere, and he knew the sincerity of because he can feel everything, of me not wanting anything in return. And when he came back from his experience, you know, he didn't have the desire we've mentioned for boats, for life, for money, for companionship. He there was no it it was so pure of just wanting to support one another. And it was slow moving, but just this trust and friendship that emerged slowly over many months. Eventually he took me up on the like just let's talk and share, and he shared some of the emails he gets in return of how people how people's lives are changed that you know he he never shared with other anyone before. And that was nice to hear, and we would sit and just talk for hours. I would come over and the ex you know, we were just gonna spend a little bit of time, we'd look at the clock, and like four hours went by. My girlfriends would ask, I'd be like, What you know, what did you do yesterday? And I was like, Oh, I I hung out with Jonathan, like, who? I'm like, Oh, he's my monk friend. Like, you know, it was just that. It was just he was my monk friend, and we spent time. Then he had another experience.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

You died again. I see both heads turned, like, what?

SPEAKER_04 18:31

What was this other experience Elise is referring to?

SPEAKER_01 18:34

I had an experience in the Moab desert, and uh it was the third anniversary of the near-death experience. And I had another experience where I came out kind of changed out of the desert, changed. Um, I suddenly had uh I knew I would be in a relationship. I was given a bunch of information. Um you're you're why were you in the desert? I was told to go to the desert.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

How were you told to go to the desert?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Psychically. Um started in fall of last year. I started receiving messages, something's gonna happen on the third anniversary at the exact time, 4 30 in the morning. And I said, Okay, interesting. And then those messages continued to grow until I knew I would be in the Moab, Utah Desert, two miles into the middle of nowhere at 4 30 in the morning to have an experience.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

It told you to go there. That's how you knew you would be there. Yeah. And so you went to the desert and at 4 30 in the morning, did you set your alarm to wake yourself up?

SPEAKER_01 19:31

I mean, how yeah, I was there. I had to take a four by four. I took um I'll say a witness, I can't reveal. Okay. Um, somebody very well connected, um, to also experience orbs and a number of other things. And yeah, I set an alarm to wake up at 4 30 in the morning. However, I didn't sleep that night. This other individual slept. Um I knew I was going to have an experience. I knew I was walking into something. I knew there was a big change about to happen. And I walked into the desert at 4 30 in the morning. Something happened, and then uh Wait, what happened? I ended up dying again.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

You did. I was right.

SPEAKER_04 20:11

He died again. You died again? Yeah. Was it traumatic or scary?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Or no, it was very different from the first one, I guess, because I knew I was going into it. It it I call it it because it's beyond any name. Um it was feeding me things all along. It was saying, okay, you're going here, then it would give me pieces of it. Here's a location, you're getting closer. Um, and one of those messages was that I would pass from a heart attack in the desert. And it was no big deal. I figured I had come here for three years. I had given everything I had to get became homeless. I was sleeping in a forerunner for seven months in two sleeping bags because it was 30 degrees out, was down to my last hundred bucks, and it would always tell me don't worry about money. And I was just I I'd given everything at that point.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

And I figured you had burnt burned through all your money. Everything was gone. Because you were just giving, you were just meeting people and taking no, you weren't even taking donations.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yeah, I'd sold all the furniture, the house was still for sale, hadn't sold at that point. But I was sleeping in the truck, and then I did sell the house and I had a little bit of money, but it was kind of like don't do anything with it. Right. And it was just it would always tell me don't worry about money. Yeah. And I would be, okay, I won't worry about money.

SPEAKER_04 21:28

So um, yeah, I was homeless for Were you truly not worried about money because you had seen what you had seen and you couldn't deny that.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

And if something's saying don't worry about it, I didn't come back very human, so there was no worry. Like I have no fear of anything. It's just there was no worry. Like once you meet it and you're integrated with it, you know it's literally standing here right now, kind of thing. And it's just like if it says turn left, you turn left, you don't ask why am I turning left? So you just say okay, and you turn left.

SPEAKER_04 21:55

I want to live like that.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Yeah, it's a it's a form of surrender. That you can get to, but it took me death, right? So good luck.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Alright, so let's get to your second death. So it's led you into the desert. You have virtually nothing to your name at this point. You're in you you've wandered into the desert at 4 30 in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Literally walking to his death.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

It's totally you knew you were about to go have a heart attack. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

This is well, I was told that uh it told me that I was going to die again. And the funny thing is, I have these back and forths with it sometimes, and it's got a sense of humor. Uh-huh. So it would tell me, first it told me, okay, you're gonna have an experience, 4 30 in the morning, third anniversary. It was like, yeah, great. Then it's like, oh, by the way, the next message like two weeks later is, oh, by the way, you're gonna die. And I'm like, well, wait, what? Right? So it's like it would build up, and then I would say, okay, well, it's only death. Like, am I returning? Uh-huh. And then it would say, Okay, you're returning. But then I was like, Well, wait, am I returning to this? Like, am I another life? Like, what's happening here? So it then it would be like radio silence and just let you sweat a little bit. So you have no idea what's going on. And I knew I was going to the desert to die. I didn't really know if I was coming back. I gave myself a 50-50 chance, and I figured I'm fine either way. I knew that if I die again, I'm going home to this incredible experience. And I knew if it was going to allow me to come back, that it it it just had to do with what I was doing. Like it would give me something that would help others. I set the alarm. I was already awake at four, I think it was like 4 05. I got the message, okay, stay, stay in the truck. Then at 4 15, it was like, tell this person to stay.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

Oh, the person came with you. Oh, yeah. I had a witness there.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Oh. And then uh the next message was at four, I think it was like 423 or something like that. The time's all jumbled. It was like, get out of the truck. And I knew it had given me the vision of the place, where it happened and what was happening. It was showing me glimpses of it before I had gone out to the desert. So I saw the place. I'd scouted the location. I saw the place the day before, and I said, That's it. That was in the vision. So I knew I was supposed to walk into the desert, maybe like 20, 30 yards, right? And something would happen. So I blindly walked into the desert at 4:30 in the morning.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

Congratulations, by the way. That's really brave.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

It would be if I hadn't had the first experience, right? And it's kind of like I'm speaking with this all the time. I'm not alone. So anyway, I go out into the desert and I have an experience, and this person witnesses it. I come back from this.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

Oh, no, slow down. So the experience is death.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

Is it a heart attack? Yeah. Did it feel like I'm having a heart attack and dying?

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Yeah, in fact, it was something really eerie happened. I was checking the phone. Um, this this particular phone, it was like 427. I'm like, okay, I have three minutes. It was interesting. I as soon as I stepped into the spot, I knew it was the spot. I had never walked to it before, but it was like this mag like, click, you're in the spot. And then I remember checking, the phone was 429. And at 429, I figured, okay, I'm not checking again. Something's about to happen. You just feel it, something's about to happen. And sure enough, there are orbs in the sky everywhere, thousands, just everywhere. Thousands of orbs. Thousands. And this person behind me is witnessing all of this from the vehicle. They're just everywhere. I, of course, and feel them and I communicate with them. And the next thing I know is the wind picks up. Wind just went crazy. Uh, and I yeah, I will just say my heart beat at a rate that had never beat before, and I've been like professional level athlete fitness beat quickly or slowly, very quickly, but on a scale that I recognized I had never felt before. Right. And I remembered there was this point where I was almost like convulsing. Um, I was convulsing very heavily. Uh but I just remember and it was like I couldn't fall, it wouldn't let me fall. So this is all happening standing up, which uh it was in very interesting. It was like I the energy's holding you up. It's just holding me up, and it wouldn't let me fall into the dirt, which I was like very thankful for. But I remember there was this moment where I just knew I I was done. Like there's I'm not coming back from this. It's I'm I'm now at the point where I can't breathe. My teeth are chattering, my body's shaking, um, I can't control any of my limbs, and my heart literally feels like it's coming out of my chest when it's beating. And I just I looked at all the orbs and I said to it, I said, Thank you. And the next thing I know, I'm out, and there's missing time. I don't know how long. In fact, the witness isn't sure how long either. But I came back, and the next thing I knew, I was back in the body. I had received some information, some things, and there were twice as many orbs. It was like the entire sky. Imagine looking up at the darkest sky you've ever seen, millions of stars, and watching the whole thing moving, just everywhere, every direction, fast, slow, zipping, moving, flashing, everything going on all three sides of me.

SPEAKER_04 26:59

And then um Did you have a recollection of where you had when you left? Do you know where you went?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I do know now a little bit, which I'm not quite ready to share. Okay. Uh, but I'll just say I wasn't in that body. Okay. Uh I was somewhere else. And I will say it wasn't where I was the first time. It was a different it was a when I asked, I was told it was the space between spaces. So it a timeless place um in which I was able to receive things. So I received more information, and some of that information was I would end up in a relationship, uh, how my work was going to be affected, what I'd be doing in the future, what's in here, what I'm connected with, why, my connection with all of this uh in the sky. And I walked out of the desert, walked back to the vehicle. I was told to go back to the vehicle. It's kind of interesting. It was like a light switch was hit, everything's moving around me, and then the light switch goes to off and everything's gone. Just disappeared just like that.

SPEAKER_04 28:06

All the orbs and everything, everything, all at once.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

It was like incredible. And all this stuff disappears, and you're standing there. The wind has died down, it's like you're back, and I'm like, okay, and it tells you to go back to the truck, and I'm like, okay, go back to the truck, and I'm trying to catch my breath. It feels like I've been kicked in the chest by a horse, right? Like it, I'm a mess, I'm crying, like I'm a disaster. And I get back to the vehicle and I'm like, Did you see it? Like, you know, what'd you see? I'm like trying to catch my breath. And she's like, Oh, like, oh my god. Had she seen the orbs and everything? Or no? Yeah, she did. Yeah, we saw two different things. We both psychics, and we both received a message that day that we would see the same thing and see different things as well. So I saw more. Uh-huh. Um, but this person saw plenty and saw what happened to me, and also had an experience, didn't realize that they were having an experience while I was having one. Uh-huh. So it took weeks for that to come around. That's why she couldn't tell how much time had passed either. Yeah. So we left the desert, and coming out of the desert, I had received a text message, and it happened to be from Elise, who remembered that I was going to the desert to possibly die, because we had the conversation about it because we were friends. We were sharing this information.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Right before we went to Moab, he gave me uh like a box of things. He was like, I don't think I'm coming back.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

So here you but that happens with a lot of your friends, right? Yeah. And I didn't think anything of it. I was just kind of like, you know, I'm going. I think my time here is done, and what I've done, I've impacted, you know, hundreds of thousands of people in countries all over the world. And it's like I knew that's what I was here to do. And I figured, okay, I'm free of this.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

And not so fast. Not so fast.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

Exactly. So when I when I drove the vehicle out and we were in cell service, a message pops up, and I I think it was 6 a.m. by that time I had seen it, but she had sent it exactly at like 4 30 a.m. when I was going to die. Had you done that on purpose?

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Not knowingly.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Oh. Man, I gave you credit for waiting up and like, oh, 4 30, it must be happening now.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

My higher self, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Yeah, and it was this thing. I was like, oh, yeah, she she really does care. It was like something got flipped on in that experience that wasn't able to be flipped on before, which was the boyhood in me. It was like I was giving it back because I came back with no desire for anything.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Yeah, so you got a little bit of humanity back. Humanity back.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

It was like it was like a reward in a way. It was like, you know, I was eating meat, you know, I was meditating, no friends, no socializing, no movies, no television, no radio. It was complete monkhood. Right. And I just understood that I was to give until I died. Right. And here I was being given things back, like chocolate and coffee, and then feelings for Elise and going. I remember driving out, making her first right-hand turn where the dirt road finally hit the pavement, and I was like, I need to get back and talk to her. Like I just need to get back to talk to her.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

So prior to this moment in the desert, when you guys are hanging out, had you felt any sort of like human, like, boy, this is a beautiful woman, and nothing.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Nothing. It was 100% service. In fact, we used to joke, she would ask me, you know, about love, and I would be like, Well, I unconditionally love you. And she goes, Yeah, but you unconditionally love everybody. You know, like it was just like an inside joke between us because I just I didn't have it. Like I didn't have that ability. It was taken. And here I am coming out of the desert and feeling this pull. Like, I I need to talk to her, like I need to get in touch with her.

SPEAKER_04 31:50

And this is such a great story. I love this.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

This is amazing. And uh sure enough, it took me after that experience. I ended up spending three days in a van in the Moab uh desert, kind of recovering because psychically I just couldn't be around people. It was too much.

SPEAKER_06 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

And I had enough food and water to not leave that van for any reason, not even go to the bathroom. There's a bathroom in it, and I literally did not step out of this van for three days to just try and find my equilibrium again.

SPEAKER_04 32:21

Your your witness wasn't was no longer with you.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Nope, went back, and um it was just such a profound experience like the first one. I mean, the first one took me a year and a half to integrate, and here I was with another experience just trying to find that point where you're like, okay, I'm all right now. I feel I feel yeah I can walk in a grocery store, I'm okay.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

What was the emotion though? Was it ecstatic or was it like debilitating? What would what were you feeling when you're sitting in a van for it was debilitating?

SPEAKER_01 32:52

It was so potent and so powerful, and some of the information I was shown, and there was also like these new feelings like I'm gonna have a cup of coffee tomorrow. I'm like, I wasn't allowed to have coffee. Like it was no coffee, no chocolate, no sugar.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

When you say you weren't allowed, you you couldn't I get that your body wouldn't tolerate it, but did you also have the message that we're not doing that?

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yeah, no stimulants of any kind, it was no alcohol, literally nothing. It put me in a position where I could not taint anything I was given. Not even a cup of coffee. If I have three cups of coffee and I'm speaking really fast and now I give you a really short answer because I'm just short on time and I need another cup of coffee, the information has now changed.

SPEAKER_04 33:31

They were making you as a vessel for the message as clean and clear as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

1000% and uh transparent. Not even television, nothing. I mean, literally silence. I was a monk for three years without calling myself a monk. Right. But I lived that way. And coming out of the desert, it was all of a sudden like things had changed. I was given some things back, and it was like interesting because it's that sense of humor that I can't quite explain. It's like, well, we're gonna make you live this way because we know we're gonna give you something back, and when we do, it's gonna be so big. And it's like, you know, you give me a lease and all this other like the coffee.

unknown 34:11

Coffee.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

And it's like I was stuck on the coffee three years with no coffee? I know.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

I remember my first cup of coffee in Moab, and I was on on a text message with uh thread with the lease, sitting in this van, just staring at a cliff, going, I'm drinking coffee right now. And she's like, I'm so happy for you. And it's just like, you know, this this whole new aspect of life returned, but it returned in a way that was unfamiliar to the way it was before. So it wasn't just coffee, right? It was I was drinking the sun that grew the crop, right? I was drinking the rain that fed it. It was like infinite.

SPEAKER_04 34:49

Dude, you're so you you're it's so much going on in there. There's so much experience getting filtered into your life. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah, and it's the funny thing is uh it's a gift, and I feel incredibly blessed, but I also know none of it is for me. Like none of it is for me. This is all for others.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

So that you can share this with others so that we can understand.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

I share it with everybody as often as I get asked to share it.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Why is it important for you to share it? Like, here's my question, right? If we're all gonna return to source, yeah, we're all gonna go there, right? And we're here just fucking around, you know, and we're supposed to have experiences. Yeah. Why are there messengers?

SPEAKER_01 35:30

You could say we've reached the bottom of the barrel. And there are some of us here to help us climb out of that.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

And do you think we will?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

I think some of us will. I would love to say it's everybody, but I was m was not shown that. There are you could say if you're really paying attention, there's a big split happening and you're either on one side of it or the other. Yeah. And you could say I'm here for those to push them across the line to get them closer to one side of it.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

You're here for the middle group who needs a little shove, or you're here for the people who are moving in this direction and and and need a way shower?

SPEAKER_01 36:07

I'm here uh you know, the push is probably the wrong term because I can't, as it was shown to me, I am here at a fork in the road to provide people the free will choice through an awareness that they don't currently have. So if I speak to you and your awareness grows about what existence is about, you sit in this place to give yourself a loving chance to choose that for yourself or for somebody else, which puts you on one side of this.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

Could you also say that by you just holding this experience and being an embodiment of this experience, it just almost vibrationally has a magnetic value to others to help uh draw them in that direction.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

It does. There are people that feel things in my presence, but I I'm not here for that. And it's like you don't need me standing in the room. I tell everybody what you need is a mirror and look in the mirror and love what you see. Love every bad decision you've ever made. Love, you know, every desire you have that you don't want to tell anybody about. Love that person because when you start to recognize that's the thing just here for the experience, there's no judgment of that thing. If you love it unconditionally, you're walking in the state of love, which is all we're here to do. You're not here to change anything, you're not here to stop drinking or stop doing what you're doing. You're here to experience life as you're supposed to experience it, but experience it consciously through a state of love. I love myself at the fact that I want to eat an entire pizza today. But I love myself enough to let myself only eat half. Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

Okay, so you you've been in a van for four days. A van down by the river. Pretty much. I wish there was a river. And so now you're you're able to get back in the world, and then what what happens in terms of you and Elise?

SPEAKER_01 37:55

At the third day when I knew it was okay, I had a choice to make. I had to talk in Dallas that was two weeks out. Uh so I could either go to Dallas and wait or return home and then drive to Dallas two weeks later. And it was like, I'm going home. And the whole ride home is like, I need to talk to her, I need to talk to her, I need to talk to her. Which is a brand new experience for me. All new. Yeah. The butterflies, the whole thing. Oh, really? Like, oh yeah. That's so human. Like, should I talk to her? Like, is she the one? Is she into it? Like, what's going on? Like, it just all it's the divine joke. It's like, we're gonna give you enough to wonder and not tell you anything. So I remember getting home, it was really funny. I'd pulled into a friend's driveway um to stay at her house, an older friend, and it was 4 30 in the afternoon. I'm like, oh, she's probably but should I text her? No, I shouldn't text her.

SPEAKER_04 38:44

Maybe I should wait till tomorrow all over, right? What was the exact message that you were given in terms of like it you'll have a relationship in your life? Is that what it was, Toby?

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yeah, it was more detailed than that. But yes, I was shown relationship serious relationship and some other things. Okay. So I knew that I would be getting into a relationship. I didn't know when it didn't show me when, didn't show me, right? Okay. All right, so you're in the driveway. I'm in the driveway having this argument with myself whether I should text her or not. I'm like, oh, she's probably busy. Like, I'll wait till tomorrow. And I didn't text her. And sure enough, first thing in the morning, I get a text message. Hello, are you alive? Did you make it back? And I was like, oh shit, I should have texted her. So um I was staying in an Airbnb in town and because I was still homeless. And so I run an Airbnb and I said, Hey, you know, I have some stuff to talk to you about. I want to share some stuff. And, you know, you're welcome to come here, or I can meet you somewhere. And she said, Yeah, I'll come over, you know, we'll talk. And I figured one of two things was gonna happen. My plan was to share everything, like all the stuff, literally everything. She'll be the only one that hears everything. Right. And every experience, every detail, every message, and one of two things was gonna happen. She's either gonna run out of the house or she's gonna be okay with it. So I'm gently trying to explain things and the experiences and the messages and the contact and all the stuff, and I'm waiting. I'm like, okay, she's still good. And she by the end of it, she's like, Oh, yeah, that seems totally normal. That's okay. And I was just like, Oh, it is her. It's it's her. Uh-huh. And then I recognized, and as we started to talk more, it was another one of those four-hour conversations. But as we started to talk more, and I was sharing more and more, we realized all these synchronicities. We ate the same way, we cooked the same way, we liked the same music. Like it was just like all this the door had opened now, and everything and all the synchronicities were there, and then I just recognized it was divinely placed.

SPEAKER_04 40:51

It'd been planned like long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Like her, I I said something to her recently. What are the chances the two of us end up in the smallest small town in Idaho to have all these synchronicities and be a part of each other's lives? And I just recognized the divine hand in it, and uh when I said that to her, she recognized it too. It was just too obvious, and we just knew. We just knew in that moment it was divinely supposed to happen, and here we are.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Well, there was there was the long-term divine hand, and then in the couple days around you coming home, there were there were a number of things that happened. Like why? So I'm staying at a girlfriend's house, renting a girlfriend's house. Her mother passed recently, uh-huh, and I was two maybe two days before you got back or three days, and she has this room, this meditation room, and I was in there and I was up later than normal. I'm a like an 8 p.m., nine p.m. bedtime person.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

That's there's not there's a lack of synchronicity that's oh no, I'm with Jonathan, old Jonathan.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Um, I was in this meditation room at the very end of it, and it's again later than I'm normally staying up. I just heard the word sage.

SPEAKER_05 42:07

Sage.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Sage, like the place needs to be saged. I hadn't been feeling as like easily connected during meditation and stuff. It's like, oh, like there's an energy here, I just need to clear it. But it was late and I was lazy, so I like half saged the place. I didn't open the closet doors, I just did a couple rooms, and then I went to bed. And then the next night came around, and in the middle of the night, all of the fire alarms are going off. And I'm like, I you know, like I pissed this thing off. Whatever it is, I didn't get it, and now it's mad.

SPEAKER_04 42:36

Some energy is in the house that's going on. You tried to sage me, you didn't get me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

And the second the fire alarms went off, I knew it wasn't like I'm this isn't a fire, this isn't the battery is going out, this is this is something else. Yeah. And so I call eventually call the non-emergency fire alarm. I'd walked around and none of the like the battery issues were going off. And I asked them, I'm like, would you send what would you do in my situation? Would you send someone out? I don't think there's a fire, I don't think there's the CO2 is an issue. They decided to come out. They checked every single fire alarm, they, you know, broke into the attic, no CO2, no fire, disassembled every single fire alarm, took the battery out of every single fire alarm, found nothing, and the alarms were still going off. Yeah. And then they stopped and the fire department left, but I knew. So 20 minutes go by, nothing's happened. I go back to bed. The second I fall asleep, everything starts going off again.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Wait, wait, like they had taken the batteries out of it, and it's still going off. And then how do you explain that? You can't. You can't. It's and the the firemen are looking at this thing going, that shouldn't be happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

I can explain it.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

And so at that point, the second time I knew it wasn't the fire people weren't gonna be able to do it. It wasn't about them.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

You needed an exorcism.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

So I walked over, one of my girlfriend's mothers lives down the street, and I knocked on her door. She wasn't home. Um, drove 15 minutes to a girlfriend's house. Everyone in Idaho has guns, you know? So you're like, exactly. And so at two in the morning, my friends let me in. I stay there for a night. The next night, Jonathan's finally back. I go to his Airbnb Airbnb for this conversation. It's a three-bedroom Airbnb. We have the talk. And then at the end of the night, I'm like, well, I don't want to, you know, like I'm scared to go home at this point. I have nowhere to go. And he offered a room. I stayed in one. He basically sat with his shoes on, ready to fight whatever darkness came into the house in the kitchen or in the living room.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Because you knew you had a sense from her telling you what had happened, you had a sense what was going on. I knew what was going on. What was going on?

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Well, it was kind of funny. Before I left Moab, she had texted me what had happened, and the second she did, I got a psychic hit. Um it, I said, Did you visit her? And it said yes. Uh-huh. So it set off the alarms. I didn't know why it set off the alarms until we were back and I had the Airbnb. So she needed a place to stay. Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

They're like, We're not gonna let you fuck this up.

SPEAKER_06 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:13

Right. You're you're all nervous, you're gonna mess it up. So we're we're we're we're stepping up.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

When I say the relationship is divine, I don't say that lightly.

SPEAKER_03 45:25

By the way, what a wingman.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

I don't say it lightly. So she ends up staying. We have super long conversations. That's how we started finding out. You know, we eat the same foods, we have breakfast together, we had coffee together. It's like she left, and I was like, oh no, she left. Is she coming back? And then she's like, Yeah, I'm coming back. Like, we're and it just pushed us together in a way that was kind of like, Well, we're gonna share space. And when we shared that space, we just found out like it was easy. It's like two people in a kitchen either bump into each other or they glide by each other, and it's like we're gliding by each other the whole time, and we're just looking at each other like this is meant to be in a way.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

At what point did you guys verbally acknowledge, like, okay, this is we're meant to be?

SPEAKER_01 46:12

It was that week. By the end of the week, I had the Airbnb for a week, and then I had to go back and do another talk. Dallas. Yeah, and start driving. And we spent the week together, and we just knew. I think we knew at the end of the week, I was a little bit nervous because there was a part of me that has the memories before death, but I only have them as memories, I can't feel them. Uh-huh. And it's like I knew what a relationship looked like, but I don't I can't remember what it feels like. And here I am in basically a first relationship, right? Going, okay, what happens now? I'm leaving. Like, I'm going on the road for possibly the next two, three months to give talks. And I'm like, what just happened? Like, are we gonna continue? And it just kept aligning things to the point where she ended up flying to Dallas, and it's like these things kept happening. She was a house sit, right? And then the house disappears, and then it's like, I guess I'll fly to Dallas. I'm like, yay, right? And it just kept putting us together, and then we did the tour together, you know, it's like five states, and it's just always put us, it's never been something we'd have to point at and go, are we in a relationship? Right?

SPEAKER_04 47:20

You just know, like she might say it differently, but I love those stories when when the universe is sort of like plotting everything out. It's so comforting to me because it makes me feel like, well, then I'm obviously in the right place at the right time. Because if I weren't, it would organize it otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

It was so interesting because we skipped like the dating thing where you would get dressed up and go to dinner and be like, okay, I'm gonna meet this person at dinner and then we're gonna talk about all the stuff. Yeah, living in the same area. And it was just like we skipped all of it and just recognized it was something greater. And she knew it because I told her when I come out of the desert with I'm supposed to be in a relationship, so you know.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

So uh in your previous life, before death, I guess you have an AD and a we call it actually she's claimed before at least and after release.

SPEAKER_04 48:15

Oh, okay. That's that's much better. I like that much better. But the relationships you were in as the C CEO or C O O C O O and the the the dude, yeah, um, were you good to women?

SPEAKER_01 48:29

No. Yeah. No. I it was how many people can I date as fast as possible? Yeah. And just keep going.

SPEAKER_04 48:36

Yeah. And you may have seen some of those in the life review, some of the uh replicas. All kinds of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Yeah, it's uh all of it.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

And it's were you scared at all that you might be that person still in relationship to her?

SPEAKER_01 48:49

I came back so loving. Um you have to remember there were three years where I was just literally, and I still do, I just walk in unconditional love for everybody, and it's just the only difference was coming back from the desert. Now I had unconditional love plus, and it was like I had something special for her that I could only share with her. And it's like there's a relationship, but it isn't a relationship, it's something else, right? It's something deeper. Um, it's a connection you could say we have beyond time in a way. Yeah. Um, so it's like, yeah, it's a relationship. Yes, we hold hands, yes, you know, we do a couple things, but it were a lot of our talks, like in a car, are spiritual talks. Like we're talking about what does it want us to do today?

SPEAKER_04 49:36

You know, what what do you think your I mean, he's got such a clear mission. Your life has now sort of intertwined with his in a very real way. What do you think your mission is?

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Is is is clear for you or I would say this point it's not not clear. All the details have not shown.

SPEAKER_04 50:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

There were parts of what he was shown in Moab and he shared at the talk the other day, and tends to share that um the way that he was helping, and please feel free to take over at any point, was um perfect in what it was, but part of the next evolution of it and how it will help more people is is that there's it's two parts of a circle, two halves of a circle, and it's uh the masculine and the feminine.

SPEAKER_06 50:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

And so what he and I are together and what we can share with others together, or you know, just even how much more he complete he is now in a relationship and I myself as well, but how the message is more potent with that.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

Yeah. When you arrived earlier and we said, Oh, would you like to be part of the podcast? I invited you to come in to be a parcast, not knowing exactly why, but I just had had the hit now I see much more clearly that you are part of the message. I mean, you are you are the uh the the yin and the yang of it. And I suspect that Elise is going to play a much bigger role than uh maybe you're aware of, Elise, or um or that you bargained for.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Yeah, yeah. We let we really do let everything be guided by it.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

So how do you trust, like I understand why you trust whatever messages you receive, because you you're either getting real messages or you're insane.

SPEAKER_04 51:34

By the way, for for David at this point, it's still a 50-50 whether you're totally getting it.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

I thought you'd have more questions at this point.

SPEAKER_03 51:42

Probably, yeah. You know, but like so, like, how do you trust like so like I get a message and I'm like, I don't trust you because I don't trust my own brain, you know what I mean? So, like, how do you trust yourself?

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Yeah, I um I mean all of my life I've certainly been on a spiritual path.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

So you've been sort of practicing this.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

I've been practicing, but but there's still a lot of learning. I trust our relationship, I trust Jonathan. I'm learning to trust myself differently because I've always done things to allow myself to then have that super connection. You know, done a practice, been in nature, done a meditation, access these things. Where I am now, and Jonathan's been the beautiful influence of this, is just is is that removing that illusion that I'm not just already that?

SPEAKER_04 52:30

You don't need the outer structure, you can just be it right now.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

It's the messages are more obvious than than what I I had looked for before. I thought there was had to be something really profound in this like voice of God coming through. And it's just always in front of you, always guiding you.

SPEAKER_04 52:48

Okay. First of all, that's an incredible story, and it's a story that is just beginning. And by the way, I feel so excited and honored to in some way uh have the opportunity to kind of announce it a little bit into the world a little bit. All right. Well, this has been absolutely incredible. I am I am so blown away by your experience and your I know you wouldn't even call it knowledge. You're just you're just you're just sharing what you've been told, but it's it's tremendous. And Elise, I'm so excited to have your contribution now to this energy and it's building and it's growing and it's becoming something greater. And I just I just had such a great time.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_04 53:36

If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe to Realization Lab.

SPEAKER_06 53:41

It makes a big difference for us. Thank you.