Jerk CBS interview

Sight Zilla interviews Jerk CBS. Jerk killed the streets in her time. She can do it all, tags, bombs, burners, and pieces. If you saw Jerk in her prime you saw how dope she was. This humble and unsung writer shares her perspectives on crews, toys, and more in this interview. Enjoy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Here we go. I got uh I got we're live and uncut. I'm over here in South Central. Uh I got the legendary, the OG, the the jerk. Um y'all, y'all, man. This is the this is the interview I've been always been looking forward to do. She is she's the dopest. She is like she is one of the dopest, one of the she's in my top five of female graffiti artists. So I mean, it's an honor. Jerk, what's up? How you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

What's up? Thank you. Doing good.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Got you on the phone. I'm good. We got you on the phone. Um, like, what city do you represent? Where you come out of?

SPEAKER_01 0:57

I come out of northeast Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Oh, okay. All right. So, like, when when did you start? Did you start graffiti before me? I know you did, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I don't know. I mean, I I feel like we're peers, but we were also on opposite sides of town. So we probably simultaneously started, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Yeah. I I started in 2000. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Oh, I started a little bit before that.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Okay, okay. What year?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Um, like when I actually got my graffiti name, I think it was like oh, I want to say 98.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

98. And your first and you would start as a winner, or did you get into like a crew or no?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

I was just a wonder, and you know, I think a lot of it was contributed because I grew up um along the the Arroyo Seco um river. So I like spent a lot of time, you know, messing around with my friends in the river, picking up cans that people left behind and started tagging sort of thing. Um, there was definitely like a huge muralist influence on that side of town. A lot of Chicano murals, you know, up and down that wash. I I remember seeing it as a memory, I do remember seeing some of Chaz's like stuff down there, but I didn't really resonate in like, oh shit, that's Chaz. You know, because you're a little kid.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

And all you see is like avenues on there, so I I didn't really resonate it at as that legend at that time or anything. Um, but I remember seeing like a lot of like uh Peter Q murals.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

It's a lot of large images, so it was basically like to me. I I didn't really think of it like I'm doing graffiti, you know. I just thought I'm just picking up a can and like painting on the wall making art, you know, or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

I mean, like, so why why the name jerk though? Like, you don't seem like a jerk, you seem like a real sweet girl. Like, where's it where's the name jerk come from?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Well, I'm sure some people would would uh differ from that opinion, but um, I originally once I started to understand the graffiti culture and I started to get a little older, it's even before graffiti or the introduction of graffiti, I think it's very obvious socially the the the lack of like of just like acknowledging women and their existence and their capabilities and all the above, you know. So once I did to get into the graffiti and I started to understand the culture a little bit more and what it was about, and you know, you first you start as a tiger, then you go bombing, then you do the X, Y, and Z. You know, I I understood that there was a different almost like um criticism wavelength for women.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

So for me, I didn't want that to be the first thing on people's minds when they saw my graffiti. I didn't I didn't want them to, I guess I didn't want the viewer to be like, oh, that's just a girl, or my name reached further based on um that's a graffiti girl. You know what I mean? Sometimes people's names are more in in conversations based on like for social reasons, not really because they saw your work or they recognize you because of your work.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

So I I think that that's that was a a big reason for choosing that name.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Okay. No, no, you were man. I I will see you up and I'll be like, damn, I need to step my game up. I need to step my game. Cause I was like, damn, she's dope. And I was like, I want to run into her, I want to bomb her. Cause I was just like, I bomb with envy, a bomb with um jail and them. And but you were just like elusive, you were getting the right spots. Like if people know, if that people know they know. I was just like, damn, like I just wanted to meet you to just figure out what kind of mindset you had because you were you were on it. I felt like, and I I I don't know disrespect to the JWs out there, but I felt like you were the best JW ever at that time. At that time. At that time. I felt like you were like, like if I would have got a JW, it would be because of you because of you. If I if someone wanted to ask me around that time, hey, you want to get a JW? I'm like, yeah, oh yeah, because of jerk. Only because of her. That's it. Huh?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

That's definitely what it is about to inspire people.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Oh, I was inspired. I mean, but like, so like how did you get into JW? Like, how like did you they just you just ran into them up like random or like they so it was uh I believe like like '99.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

I met Blossom. She had just came back to Los Angeles from her out of town vacation. And um her, I believe Pedro actually might have been the the organizer of it. They were putting together a girl wall. And they, you know, that the those girls are old school, so they're they're old friends with like the older JWs, and I believe they had contacted Deuce.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

And he kind of let the hey, I got this wall, you guys can use it if you want to, sort of thing. I really don't know how the details of it, but I know that that was the connection. So we had all the girls out there at the time. We had um charm, fuss, diva, petal, blossom, um, who else is there? Jade. Uh I feel like I'm missing somebody. And um they that's their wall, so they were there anyway. That's how I got JWs.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Okay. That's dope. I mean, like, man, like what is there a JW? I mean, like, recently I was looking you up and I saw that you don't even you don't hit up JW no more. So I don't know if you like like walked away from the crew. I see you hit up CBS, but I don't know if you're still JW.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

No, I'm not. I haven't been from there for a while. Those basically a fallout.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

So okay. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sorry to hear that. Um, how's how's CBS life?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

I actually, you know, when I got in in uh JW that same year, I had actually got it in CBS. A lot of people don't know that.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

So, but then at that time I was more interested in making art and make and painting graffiti and not really being about the politics or anything else. And they were going through their own conflicts. So I um just drifted away from them.

SPEAKER_03 8:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

And then I was able to reconnect with them years later.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Does it do is that a big is that an issue? I know it's an issue for me, the graffiti politics. If it's too much politics, I'm I'm fading away, I'll disappear. Like, I don't I just want to paint and express myself. But what it is, what is it for you? Like, how does a graffiti politics ex affect your your um avenues of of expression?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Um I think in terms of crews, it does affect me to kind of just isolate, but I think I naturally like that anyway. You know, um I'm pretty selective of the people I'm around and who I paint with and who I talk to and who I kind of choose to be around. So if you if I feel like your character, something you said, the way you said it, maybe in your like maybe the way you you kind of conduct yourself. If those are if I feel that there is something that doesn't align with something that I like or can be around, then I probably won't I probably won't fuck with you. And that's just in general, so that's probably why I don't have like a ton of people I you see photographic.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

You know, um as of lately, it's really more because of responsibilities.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

So where um how do you feel about graffiti back then versus now? You see any differences? Any pros or cons? I mean, uh I mean it's it's easier, it's easier. I feel like it's a little bit easier to do versus our time because I was getting shot at and I was getting, you know, we're getting caught up. We weren't getting tickets when we got caught. We got taken to the station. So, like, how's it? Do you see any differences between now and then?

SPEAKER_01 10:38

I wouldn't know about that because I don't really talk to too many young graffiti writers. Um, I really don't know what their experience is right now. I do hear that a lot, that it is a lot easier that people get let go, they're just getting tickets and then they get dropped at the the courthouse.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Um but even for me back then, I think it felt pretty selective of the spots I painted and who I painted with. And I I really wasn't big on letting people like introducing myself as a jerk to anyone. So I I avoided a lot of that of that back then. Um from an outside perspective, just seeing the quality of work, I think it's um it's I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

You know what? Like you articulate yourself so well. How were you always like this? Or do you read books? Are you like just some natural prodigy? Because you know you articulate your thoughts so good. How are you able to do that?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Uh yeah, I've always been like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

But I do read.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

What what what have you been reading? Are you into fiction, nonfiction? What are you what are you into?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Uh I've been uh I don't know. I don't know really to fiction. I do do some fiction. I don't know. Um I recently did an art show for very well read okay uh art show that's going on in downtown LA right now at the Museum Conservatory. Um the and the the thing about the art show was over 400 artists, it was basically make a cover for your favorite book. I didn't choose my favorite book, but it was definitely the first book that came to mind, and it was um open veins of Latin America. It was written it was written in the 70s, it was banned a couple countries for many years. Um, but I I it was just the first book that came to mind, just given the the political climate going on now. Okay, and just everybody all of a sudden they don't want Mexicans around, you know, or yeah, everybody of any Latin descent, yeah, or anybody that doesn't look like white America.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

So I mean I love that about you. I love that you're you're real connected to your roots and your heritage. And um were you were you like who taught you to be like that? Like were you just born like that? Like born like a warrior, warrior Xena, or Xena Warrior, or like or did someone influence you or mentor you, or does it there's someone that inspires you to be like because so uh there's a lot of people that are not connected to their roots and not connected to their heritage, they can care less, but it I feel like it's so important to um stay connected to your your ancestors and and the people that came before you because they laid they paved the way for us to be here today, you know?

SPEAKER_01 14:00

So who um I'm gonna say was just being just growing up in northeast Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

You know, there's a lot of murals, there's a lot of Chicano murals that were that were up. Um I had actually as a youth and into my teens, I attended Plaza de la Raja. It's a cultural center. They do they they do all kinds of artist stuff, but they're pretty focused on the Chicano um movement type of artwork. You know, um so there was always like Aztic dancers there. Um I mean even the Lincoln Park at one point had playgrounds that that mimicked like Mayan and Astric uh pyramids as slides.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

So there's there was always things around that make you search into your history. I mean, Lincoln High School in Lincoln Heights has such a huge history of the Chicano movement and and the parts that they played and the students there with with the uh walkouts. You know. So it's just like I guess as a kid I was just interested in those things, and if I get little snippets of little things that I thought, oh man, that's cool. Like I would I would go to the library and just look it up. Sometimes you find books and sometimes you don't, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Oh, that's dope, man. That's that's dope. Like, you know, you don't there's not too many people around like you. Um I mean, there's a lot of women in the graph game right now, um, different personalities, uh, different perspectives. Um how important is is it for I guess women to be in the graffiti game?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Well, it's kind of weird that there isn't more women than men. I mean just I mean, we it's usually what is it, the the ratio of five five women to two men or one man?

SPEAKER_02 16:16

I think you know what, I think there will be more women in the game of graffiti in this culture, but there's a lot of uh toxicity in the culture too, right? So it's that kind of like pushes women away sometimes. I can't really speak on it because I'm not a woman, but from an outside looking in, like there's a lot of women that really want to learn, they want to evolve through graffiti and grow with it. But there's a lot of dudes out there that they're kind of like gatekeepers, or they can be kind of patriarchal or misogynistic where they want them to be either from their crew or they want them, they want to be in a relationship with them, or they just want to like objectify them, you know what I'm saying? So um what would be like and I've run into a lot of women that are interested in graffiti, like do you have any like advice on how to coexist with the toxicity that does exist in graffiti culture? Um, because it's not just America, it's it's a whole it's a worldwide thing. So, like, you have any advice on how they would approach graffiti?

SPEAKER_01 17:29

I don't I don't know because I feel like it's not the same thing, for example, in Mexico. I feel like there's a lot more graffiti girl crews, okay, and there's a lot more women in in graffiti, yeah. Um, I don't necessarily know if in if they're like here, there's so many like barriers, or all of a sudden, like, well, you don't do this enough, so therefore you're not confede.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Or you know what I mean, all of a sudden all of a sudden have selected standards for certain people, but not all.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

So you think like you think like more girl crews will be kind of balance it out out here in America? Because I only think there's I only know of like one or two, like back in the day they had FDS, right? Females are showing society, and I know like right now there's mom's crew. Um, so I don't know if that's the answer, but would you like to see more girl crews pop up and emerge?

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Um, I don't know. I don't know if I really care about crews like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Right? Um okay, so look, look, so maybe you can vibe with me. I don't know how you feel about this, but uh people ask me to get in their crews, right? Like, I think like last year they asked me to get in their crew, and no disrespect to crews and all that, but I question it now. Like, why why should I give why should I be from a crew, right? What what will a crew do for me at this point in my life? When it was younger, it didn't like I had a reason for it, but now that I'm older, I barely even hang out with my crews. I'm mostly I'm by myself. Most of the time I go paint by myself 99% of the time. So it's I just I not that I isolate myself, I just my circle got my my way of thinking got changed, my perspective changed, my vision changed, who I was a as a person changed that doesn't really resonate with those crews at the moment. So I don't know if that's similar to what you're feeling, or is there a certain what's your perspective on crews and joining crews right now and kicking it with crews?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Oh, I I don't know. I I I just don't care to to do any of that. I think it falls very much in line like with what you're saying. Yeah, you know, I I mean I'll I think back then people would get in crews, you know, to because everybody was young.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

And so it's kind of like the people you're growing up with or you're friends with, or people that kind of uh took you under their wing a little bit. But I um I'm not I'm not likely to do that for anybody at this point.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

No, I get it, I get it, I get it. Like, I mean, so like what what what is jerk doing now? Like, what do you do now as far as like artistically speaking, graffiti graffiti speaking, like what are you doing now?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I I haven't done anything now. Okay. Um, it's not because I don't want to.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Um what is it then?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

I think I lost uh some sense of motivation when quite passed.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

With what?

SPEAKER_01 21:14

When quite passed?

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Oh, rest in peace, quite that's my boy. He's still alive, he's still with us. Oh, he's such a good guy. Um shit. How did how did quite because a lot of people don't know who quite is.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Like dope.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

What was what was quite to you? How how do would you describe quite? Because quite would love hearing this. What would you do?

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Um quite was dope. Uh you know, I really appreciate he was one of the few people that would actually I think a lot of people have this story where he would randomly call you and see how you doing.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:59

How's it going? With the nuts or just wanted to stick in.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

It was always very genuine, you know? Yeah. Um, so he was just he was just the best soul.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

He was. He was. Like, okay. So what kind of what kind of motivation do you need, man? Like, I I I think I can take a crack at it. I can see if I can motivate you to like like come on, like, let's go hit the back of a building or something. Like, this is 10 minutes. Like, um, I really the game really needs you because um I don't want to make it look like I'm like you're like, you know, like this ancient hero that's tucked away in a cave somewhere and we're trying to get you back into the in the movement, but the game does need you for your wisdom, for your heart, your love, and the balance that you have. It it speaks more than what you know, you know. Um and then as a woman, and as a jerk, no, I mean I mean a woman, as a jerk, you have a perspective that a lot of people could learn from and set a spark in, you know what I'm saying? So but I know you'll be back. I know I'll be back. I know it's I know you'll be back. Because the way you are in the shape of your heart, you can hear it, you can feel it. So I just want to say I appreciate you for everything you've done uh in the game. And it man, I I wish people could see what you did. Maybe they can Google you and see all this stuff, you know. Um so like who what writers back in the day were your top five?

SPEAKER_03 23:52

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

Like who inspired who were who were back then where you were out active, who was out, like who was like the people that stood out? Like who were like three people that stood out and you're just like, damn.

unknown 24:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

When I was when I was active, I don't I don't know if I really went into graffiti with that mindset.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

No, I mean like did anybody stand out? Like when you're out there that you can remember. Um cuz it's like because I know you were all city. You were all you were all city, bro. Come on, you're all city, bro. I see you everywhere. People don't even know, man. Like, I sound like a hype man right now, but if people know jerk was wow, like whoa. I think the only person that I thought that came close to you that can rival you was maybe Sherm.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

I love Sherm.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Sherm had a crazy style too. And and we're and this is and you guys are you guys are part of this story of graffiti and evolution of it that people need to know. You know, so um, do you have a like a Mount Rushmore of graffiti artists all time?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Uh not really.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Not really. That's you know what?

SPEAKER_01 25:32

You know, I you know someone who I thought was so cool that I would see up all the time and uh have all these old scribes from like '95, yeah, 96 was necess WAI.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

And then the same week, or the same, yeah, I think the same week, I saw a scribe of hers at a King Taco at Lincoln Heights, and then that later that week I had seen like a 95 tag of hers at uh in Pomona.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

I was like, oh shit, this is dope because it was like four or five years later, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

So I thought that was cool. I don't know. I I think everybody offers different things, and it's kind of hard to pinpoint, like, man, like like this, this is my top three, or this is my top five, because everyone offered different things and inspired you in in in different ways. I'm what different things, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

I'm gonna say one for you. I'm gonna say one for you, and that's quite yeah. Because you know, I interviewed Rogue from MF a couple weeks ago, and he said something that kind of blew my mind. And he I was I asked him the same thing. What's you know, Mount Rushmore? Who are the people you look up to inspire you? He said his crew, his crew members, those is what inspired him. Those are the people he looks up to, the people in his circle. And I was like, damn, that's a cold answer. Because most people don't say that. So for you, I'd be I believe one of those is quite.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Yeah, but I feel quite was um aside from graffiti, he was just a really good person. He's a very genuine person, yeah. And that that's almost like a different type of um inspiration, you know?

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah. Nah, he's he was dope. I mean, I I didn't I didn't kick it with him that much. I I kicked it with him. I invited him, well, like, we met later, and he was trying to kick it, and he wanted me to, I think, be from ETI or no, no, no, I2W or something like that. But um I invited him over to my house for a little black book session. Because back then, back then I was doing black black book sessions for all artists, sculptors, architects, um, got you know, everybody. If he did art, you were there. It wasn't just a graffiti artist bench, it was a bench for everybody. And he came through, he brought a bottle of wine, and uh we and he was there, he was life of the party. He was dope. And I wish I got to kick in one of them more, and I wish I got I wish I could go paint with him. So, I mean, this is so important. Just paint with the people that inspire you, the people that why they're here. Because we don't know our expiration date. Yeah, you know, so and you're a hero, man. You are a hero. Unsung, though, but people know, man. We're gonna do your name. We're gonna me and Menace, we're gonna do your name. When we do this, when this interview, we're gonna do your name. Yeah, uh, Menace is gonna have fun. Menace is a big fan of you too. I'm a fan, Menace is a fan. So we looked up to you. You came before. I don't know if Menace, I think you and Menace many came before you, but I know I can't.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Yeah, I think so. Or I think it might be the same.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Yeah, but yeah, I came after y'all, so I'm like y'all like my like my low-key elders and shit, you know. So um, but yeah, man, like so what like I know you I know you kind of turned down right now, but like what what's next for you?

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Um I think I just need you know, sometimes life gets hard. And it's just like trying to deal with you know, home life responsibilities and it just kind of draining sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah, yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

So right now, um me personally, I'm just looking for like some form of clarity, okay, some form of feeling well rested and just kind of get back into the rhythm of ideas and creating ideas and seeing how far I can take those. Whether it's in my artwork or whether it's in graffiti. Because right now, like I can open my black book and I'm just like staring at the page for a while. Like I know to do what I what I know to do, but when before I felt every time I opened the page like I was trying to create something new, I was trying to do it a different way, and I don't feel that at the moment, you know. But I think that's just part of the growing pains as an artist and as a person. You know, you have your still moments.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

You'll get you'll get back there, man. You'll get back there. No, for real. Because I I had that moment. I was in prison and I had a black book in front of me, and I and I didn't want to do nothing. My whole my I didn't want to do anything. I I wasn't, I wasn't in, I I was writer's block sitting in prison trying to figure out, trying to remember. But um we'll get you out there, man. Like, just I just want you to know that like in this community of graffiti, you're not alone. And just take a leap of faith with the right people. So you know. Um I got a few more questions for you before we wrap it up. What is what is your what is your tool of choice? Is it a scribe? Streak or spray can? What what would you choose first and why?

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Um I guess a spray can. I mean that's the first thing that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Why the spray can over the streak in the in the scribe?

SPEAKER_01 32:17

I don't know. I guess that's just part the primary tool I've always used. Like I've I've you know, I would yeah, I think even when it came to tagging, I would always use a can over a streak. Even though a streak is more discreet.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

I mean, is there a certain kind of brand? What's your favorite brand of spray paint?

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Oh, I don't got a brand. Oh, you just you just you just I'll just use whatever is available and I everything has different pressures, different um and some coat better than others. Yeah, and it's just about using whatever you have at the moment, the best the best advisability. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

That's good. They got a word for people like you.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

What's that?

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Flexitarian.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Um I don't know anything to be honest about tips either.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Is there is there a city that you've always wanted to go to to do graffiti in?

SPEAKER_01 33:22

No, I love LA.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

Okay. Straight hardcore Angelina over here. Okay. Alright. So you never thought about Germany, Berlin, New York, none of that?

SPEAKER_01 33:36

No. I mean, I would love to visit and vacation there, but if that's not the priority. I mean, what am I gonna do there anyway? I don't live there, so it's not like I'm not gonna run nothing there. You know what I'm saying? I'm looking at it as a bomber's perspective, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 33:53

We gotta go to Berlin. We got no, I'm for real. You got a passport?

SPEAKER_03 33:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Let's go to Berlin. Let's set it up, go for a week. I'm telling you, you'll be inspired. It is like the graffiti capital. This it's the second graffiti capital of the world. I think the first one is in Chile. You'll be inspired. Trust me. I went there and was brain farting in Berlin, and I was like, I don't even know where to start.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

It will take me a year to make a dent in Berlin. That's how much graffiti is out there. That's how much is accepted. That's how much it's just common and regular out there.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

But yeah, we'll we're gonna go to Berlin. Just put that put that on your bucket list. For real. All right, we're gonna go there. Um, but uh I want to ask you, I don't know if you're able to answer this question. And you don't have to answer it if you can't, but graffiti, is it more at this, at this from all the years at this point in time, is it more if it's is it more religious or more spiritual?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

What what do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Like, is it is it a is it, you know how religion in religion it's more ceremony, ceremonious. And a lot of people do it for the ceremony and for fellowship, right? But spiritually speaking, that's for people that just they do it because of like it just it moves with them, it speaks to them, and is a part of their life. They don't necessarily do it for the for the fellowship or for the ceremony or for the they do it because it's just yeah makes them feel some kind of way.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

I think it's always been spiritual for me, okay, but it's always kind of intertangled with with my art. Okay, it's just something I've always done and something I've dedicated a lot of time into and developing, and I put a lot of thought into my ideas, and I think that's why my graffiti kind of translated the way it does to you, because I was also a lot of thought into the spots that I caught. So I think it's always been spiritual for me. Um, I I definitely don't like people enough for it to be religious.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

You know what? I've been doing a lot of research on graffiti, and it's not that much different. Well, I don't want to freak you out, but it's not that much different from indigenous uh magic, right? So when you whatever you do, you put your energy into it, and whatever energy you're feeling at that moment, where it's cooking, dancing, art, whatever it is, whatever mood you're in, you're programming it, you're putting that energy into it. So when people see it, embrace it, and take it in, they're feeling exactly what you're feeling at that moment. So that's why I trip out like a lot of people see graffiti. Some people see some graffiti, they're like, oh, that's ugly. And I'm like, I don't think you're seeing the ugliness, I think you're seeing what that person was feeling at that moment they were doing it.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Versus is that my feeling when I see some toy shit?

SPEAKER_02 37:30

I I guess some toy shit. I mean, toy, you give me this guy. Okay, you got the okay. Look, toy, there's different levels of toy, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

So what level of toy are you talking about? Because there's toy.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

I'm not talking about toy, you brand new toy, you still learn a curve, you know what I'm saying? But you can't five years in deep, you still can't fucking do a straight line and save your ass, and that's pretty fucking toy. I don't know. You can't have the same fucking bubble 20 years and still and get it right.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

It I don't you know what? So how do you feel about how do you feel about anti-style then? Because anti-style anti-style is you know, the people have been doing it for years, but it's not anti-style.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Would that even constitute as a style?

SPEAKER_02 38:19

Is it just look, ooh, okay. Okay, okay, all right. We're getting philosophical here. Um anti-style, look, graffiti, graffiti's gonna evolve, right? Right, everything evolves. Bottom line. I use the example of generations of people, right? Your parents will say, you kids don't know shit. You guys don't do it right. Their generation before them will say the same thing. Because there's evolution, but the evolution, like graffiti's gonna evolve, and it's gonna evolve in ways that are does not make sense. It's dumb. We're and then you start feeling like those parents, those old the elders, like, oh man, nope, no, no. You need to stick to structure, you need to stick to form, you need to stick to this. But everything evolves, you know. I think there's always gonna be that classical approach, that classical perspective, but we're also gonna see mutations and hybrids of something. I can't stand fucking hybrid cars and electric cars, they annoy me. But that's evolution. It's evolution. I'd rather stick to the old school shit, carburetors and all that. But but here we are, same with music. Hip hop is not the same as it used to be. Hip hop is not the same.

SPEAKER_03 40:00

Well, according to me, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

But the new generation be like, that is hip-hop. But I'm like, nah, bruh. Nah, that's not what moved me. But it it does something for them. It it basically evolution is important and it helps that person in that dimension in that time of existence.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

But I understand what you're saying. Yeah, but I also feel like when I look at somebody's work, I can kind of see the direction that they're going each time. But if there is, but if I see your work and I follow you, and I don't see it going anywhere, then that's when that's when you're just simply existing. Well, like it's just not a it it no longer becomes a spiritual journey in your graffiti.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Yeah. Well, but it's all energy, right? So, like it goes back to what you're saying. Maybe that person's a toy, not because they're just a toy, they're not destined to be a toy. They just you're looking at there's something in in inside them that's not changing, not evolving. They're stuck. It's a reflection of that person's personality, their spirit, their soul. They're not, they're not evolving, they're not growing with this, right? And I think like graffiti, like there's a there's a thing where you can study handwriting and it reveals, I forgot what it's called, but it reveals their personality, your destiny, etc. And I think it's the same with graffiti, like you can tell how a person is and how they express themselves through that, through the through the streaks, the tags, and all that of who they are, who they're becoming.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

You can see but with that said, does that mean free form is not uh just I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

No, no, this is this is dope. This is dope shit we're talking about. We're talking about some shit that's probably never been touched on but thought about, but I think it depends on in that moment where that person's at. And then we look at the the pattern. Are they uh going up? Are they going down? Because there's some sometimes people are going in a upward, uh they're they're ascending, right? But then they then they run into something, they experience something in life, or something happens to them, though they just drop, they hit rock bottom, they fall, which is common and normal. Yeah, especially in the society that we live. The society we live in is not normal. We're over we're overworked, we're overstressed, or and then we came and nurture and love properly. We uh we we came in, we came in and build community properly because we're so stressed out about surviving. We're in fight or flight mode, yeah, and it sucks. Shouldn't even be like this. We should be more connected, but we're we're fighting over crumbs. We don't even know how to love no more, and then the technology comes in and is it's making blur lines. People don't even know how to greet people no more. You got young kids that don't even know how to start a conversation anymore. They just tell you what they treat you, they talk to each other like computers. My I s I I swear, I swear, my daughter talks to me like I'm Google. That's it. She just comes to me when she wants something. Or my my my son doesn't know how to like it's just it's it's it's we're evolving, we're experiencing, and we're changing. But it's up to us to be to have that self-awareness and bring that medicine that our ancestors and Taught us and bring that back to the people.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yeah, but I don't think freeform does that.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

Freeform? What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 44:11

It sounds like uh yeah, freeform graffiti. But with all that said, it just sounds like freeform graffiti. The conclusion would be it's just a cop out for not trying or not looking to evolve. I understand like people fall stagnant, or perhaps that was the end of their line in graffiti. They tried it, this is not for me, and moving on.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

It's a great point, but I think it's a reflection of the times. How many people are out there don't know who the fuck they are, they don't know where we're going. They're just existing.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

There's a lot of people out there like that. It's sad. Because during our time back in the day and before that, we had a direction of where we're going. We had direction. You still have direction. I still have direction. But this new this generation that's coming after us, they're just existing. Well, I the ones I see. I don't want to just be put absolutes out there and put that kind of spell out there and shit. But um, yeah, I understand.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

There's those there's a loss of uh culture.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

That's a little big loss of culture. We've been we've been assimilated. Shit is not even real no more. This computer AI is a low-key, like an undercover terminator. Shit is killing everybody's heart and souls and culture. But it's up to, I mean, I don't want to make it sound like some kind of hero's journey is up to us to save the world, you know?

SPEAKER_03 45:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

I think it's just important that we we connect with ourselves and we save ourselves first, build ourselves up, and then that energy will radiate. We lead by example. And you're the you're the Xena Warrior Princess. I'm coming for you. I'm coming for you. We need you out here. You're so important. But I'm gonna wrap up this interview. Um, you have anything, any shout outs you want to give to anybody?

SPEAKER_00 46:26

No.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

No?

SPEAKER_00 46:29

No.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

I love it. I love who you are, dude. I love it. I love it. Um I just want to say, we gotta paint. I wanna I wanna pick, I wanna pick your brain later. Um I feel like you have like wells of wisdom that you're kind of being stingy with right now. And and I want to learn from you. I feel like you have a lot to teach, not only me, but the community.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Well, there's definitely a lot to think about.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Okay. All right. I like this. Um well, thank you, jerk. Um, thank you for this interview. Um thank you for everything, man, that you've done for the culture. And thank you for risking your life and your freedom all those times. It really made it, really made a difference.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Well, I appreciate you. I don't know if I feel that way about myself, but no, keep keep talking to me.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

I won't make you I'm gonna have you feeling like I'm gonna have you feeling that way for sure.

SPEAKER_03 47:49

Um okay, man.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Thank you.