Episode 4 | The Duck Ladies Pondcast | Wing Clipping, Aerial Predators, & Runner Ducks

Welcome to Episode 4 of the Duck Ladies Pondcast with Host Krissy from ​⁠  @DunkinDucks and Emily from ​⁠  @CheeseandQuackersHomestead ! In episode 4 we discuss updates on Mr. Whip, wing clipping, aerial predators, and feature runner ducks as our breed of the week!

Table Of Contents: 
0:00:00 Intro
0:00:20 Homestead Updates
0:08:05 Mr. Whip Update
0:10:46 Wing Clipping
0:32:00 Aerial Predators
0:42:20 Metzer Farms Sponsorship
0:46:06 Breed of the Week: Runner Ducks
0:55:04 Answering Follower Questions | Protecting Against Predators | Broody vs Laying Hens | Aggressive Drakes In Mating Season | Our Opinions On The Prettiest Waterfowl
1:08:24 Merch Announcement
1:10:25 Wrap Up 

Special Thank you to Metzer Farms for sponsoring this episode. You can check out their wide variety of ducklings and goslings available here: https://www.metzerfarms.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everyone, and welcome to the Duck Ladies Podcast, episode four. I'm your host, Chrissy from Dunkin' Ducks, here with Emily from Cheesin' Quackers Homestead. And on today's episode, we're gonna be discussing some health updates on my Duck Mr. Whip, Wing Clipping and Ducks, featuring the runner duck as the breed of the week and answering some questions sent in by our followers. But before we get started on all of that, I just want to check in. Emily, do you have any updates for us on your homestead this week?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yes. We have been doing like some projects. I just pulled out the duck pond. Do you remember how my coop had the duck pond and then the ground pond? Yes. I pulled the ground pond. So I pulled it out and I'm filling it in and I'm turning that into like a little nap area. That's like a soft surface with like good shade. And then I'm giving them a bigger pond in the deck, and I'm really excited about that. We did build a Drake separation coupe. It's in use. They've been in it. The ladies have been using it as a daytime nesting box, which is actually awesome. Jelly Bean was fake sick. Chrissy already knows about this, but you guys don't know. Jelly Bean was, she scammed me. She had something in her eye, and she had like, she freaked out about it so bad that she was like donking her head in the water so much that she gave herself full body wet feather. Like she was like so spazzed out. And so when I went out there to check on her, she had foamy eye. She had wet feather. And I was like, why does she look super sick? Like I FaceTimed Chrissy and showed Chrissy, and Chrissy was like, whoa, she looked so bad. I pull her inside. I'm like crying, which is so funny. I'm crying because I've been going through so much with my birds. And Chrissy was literally like calmed out. Like it might just be an eye infection. We're talking about teramycin, and I leave her in the basement. I luckily did not start the teramycin. I left her with a dunk bucket to keep washing her face. Do I not come downstairs the next morning to a perfectly healthy goose that's just sitting in the basement fully dry? Nothing wrong with her. Perfect eyes. So she was just being insanely dramatic about having something in her eye. And that was the whole thing. And I texted Christy and I was like, I feel like an i favorite part about this whole situation.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Well, I shouldn't call it my favorite part, but I just think that we need to normalize freaking out and immediately being like, obviously, all my birds have bird flu and they're all gonna die and panicking because like always do that. And you did that with Jelly Bean. But me not me looking at Jelly Bean on FaceTime, I'm like, Emily, you don't have bird flu. But like when you're in the moment and your bird is sick, you're like, obviously it's bird flu.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

It has to be like worst case scenario. My brain was immediately like, she has foamii, this is bird flu, where there's like a hundred other causes for foam eye. And I was like, no, but she has it. Like, there's no way. And I'm like, there's no respiratory symptoms, which, in order, just so everybody knows, the only time you have to worry about foamia is when you have respiratory symptoms. I didn't have respiratory symptoms or really any symptoms other than foamii. And the WEF other, which it was raining that day anyway. So sometimes they just get wet. And so yeah, I had no reason to wing out. And Chrissy kept on saying that, but I also felt in my soul, you knew that I needed to just have the panic attack. Like and you, because you were just like, you were just like letting me rip it. You were gently reminding me like it's all good, it's gonna be okay. And then the next morning I texted you, I was like, I'm so dramatic.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I get it though, because jelly bean is very important to you. And like, yeah, when when things happen here, I immediately think the worst too. A hundred percent. Sometimes you just need to talk to somebody else who can think clearly through the situation.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Oh, yeah. I was like, she's just gonna die. And it's because also when, especially when you've been having a lot of bad luck, like you've just been having a lot of situations go bad, you get so in your head, and you're like, that's all that is ever gonna be. And that's what happened with Jelly Bean. It was right after beans and polka dot. And I was like, of course, of course, she's gonna die this week. That would be it. That would be what happens.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

And it it's always like as soon as you spent all of your vet fund, somebody else is dramatic, and you're like, clearly they're dying, and I don't have the funds for the vet.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

She's fine, and she's back outside, and I just rolled my eyes. Other than that, Cashew's been driving me mad. I'm over Cashew. I'm ready to not get rid of him because I literally will not, but I'm ready to give up on him formally. Like, stop trying to make his life better. But I'm trying one more thing. I was telling Chrissy I built that Drake den in the thing, and the minute I brought in a second Drake, because there needs to be two Drakes in order for them to use that isolation pen, because I don't want him to be alone in the coop overnight, but he can't be with a woman because he's a psychopath. So I wanted to bring the Drakes back up to a two rotation so that they got more time in the female coupe. And the minute that I brought in a second Drake after building that and being like, everything is lovely, mind you, he lives with the Drakes. He lives with the Drakes in the Drake pen. He is fine with them in there. The minute I bring him in with another boy around the ladies, he just starts beating everyone up. Not just the other Drake, everyone, universally in the pen. Anybody that comes near him, he like has a it's like a temper tantrum. It's so bizarre. So I was like, I said this, I said, I'm done with you. I just built this, I'm sick of spending money on this duck. So I took him, I threw him back in the batch flock, and I put him with Goku, who he gets along with, brought two new boys in, and I'm gonna see if maybe him being in that group with the boys, and then moving him in unison with only ever Goku into the lady pen, and that will be his rotation forever. If that makes him not have this meltdown every time.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

I'd put him in in permanent Drake jail too. He sounds awful.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Moral of the story permanent Drake jail seems to be his future, which I'm not happy about. That's it here. I feel like those are those are the big updates. The babies are getting huge. I'm ready for them to move out. And other than that, how about you?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Actually, I'm feeling the same way about my baby chicks right now. I am ready for them to move outside. They're getting big, they're starting to smell really bad. And so we actually just built a like integration area for the chicks. So underneath my poop shelf, there's just like empty space that the chickens don't use because they don't really walk on the floor in the coop. So we put like gates on it so that the chicks can live in there and be separated from the adult chickens so they can like integrate for a while. Because my chickens are like really aggressive when I try to integrate new chicks. And because they currently still have a size difference, even though mine are almost fully feathered, I just want to play it safe and integrate them slowly. So, probably in about two weeks, once the weather starts to get like a little bit warmer, my chicks will be able to move outside, and I'm really excited about that. I've actually been, I started a chicken account a few months ago. It's called Chrissy's Chickens, and I've been having a lot of fun with it. So I'm excited to like be able to film more with the chicks when they're not just like stuck inside my house.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Big fan of the Chrissy's Chickens page. If you guys aren't following it already, please make sure you're following it on all platforms. I think it's awesome to get your perspective on chicken keeping, especially coming from such a duck background. I'm not a big chicken person like Chrissy. You definitely like chickens more than me. Your page has inspired me to be better friends with my chickens. I've been going out there and sitting with them every single day and having treat time, and I'm trying to find the connection. I'm trying to feel like they like me back. But I don't think they do.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

I feel like chickens are a lot easier to win over their love compared to ducks. And I'm having so much fun like posting on Chris Chrissy's chickens because it's just like very carefree for me, and I can just like post whatever, and I'm having a lot of fun with that. And I'm also just having fun sharing the chickens and like getting to chat with other chicken people. I'll always be a duck person at heart, but I really am enjoying my chickens, like more than I thought I would be. They're like, I love them. They're so cute and they're so fun. And they do all have like individual personalities, and I just love them so much. But besides the chickens, the only other update I have for my ducks is about Mr. Whip, and that's gonna be one of the core topics for today. So I figure we'll just get into that and I'll start talking about Mr. Whip. So if you remember from last week's episode, I had suspected that Mr. Whip was going blind because he was flying into things, crash landing. At one point, I think he flew into the wall in the coop. He flew out of the coop one morning and hit a rock really hard. And I was worried about him because his eye looked very bad. It didn't look like cataracts, it didn't look like any blindness I have seen before in ducks. It looked completely different. His pupil was not dilating. The eye almost looked like it was like watery inside. It wasn't like a typical cloudiness, but it it was like a bit cloudy. It was very strange. It wasn't something I'd ever seen before. And I had talked about how I didn't want to talk about it online until I took him to the vet. And I'm so glad I did that because what ended up happening once I took him to the vet is that so they were able to do like the dye test just to like get a better look at what is going on in his eyes. And the vet, you know, took a look at him, did some well, I don't totally know exactly what she did, but she took a very good look at his eyes, and it turns out he has a detached retina. And one of the reasons I'm glad that I didn't post about Mr. Whip um and his eye before going to the vet is because I still, even after posting about him having a detached retina, have not heard from anyone else who's gone through the same experience. So it's almost like I know that if I had posted about it, so many people would have been like, oh, he has an eye infection, like give him this medication, or oh, he just has cataracts, you know, but it was something completely different. And I'm really glad that I was able to get an expert vet opinion and not like freak myself out with all of these other things without actually knowing what was going on. And I really badly wish that I could find someone else who has a duck with a detached retina because I found that it's more common in birds of prey and in pheasants, apparently, but I haven't found anybody who has gone through this with a duck. And usually they get a detached retina by severe head trauma. So I Mr. Warp has always been kind of I've always described him as being a duck that doesn't have a lot of brain cells. So it wouldn't really surprise me if he like crash-landed into something in the first place and that caused his retina to detach. And now because he has a detached retina, he doesn't really have any depth perception, and because he can't see well, he's crashing into things way more often. So I'm glad that I know what's going on. There's no fix for this. He's just gonna live with it for the rest of his life. I did discuss with a vet if I should like take his eye out because I was like, well, what if it's painful? And we don't think it's causing him any pain, so that's good. So he's just gonna be a blind guy for the rest of his life, but that's okay because I've I've like I've said in the last episode, I've had a blind duck before, so I know how to approach this situation. And thankfully, Emily also reminded me, hey, you should probably clip his wings. And then I did discuss that with my vet, and my vet also agreed I should clip his wings because he is continuing to further hurt himself because it's like Mr. Whip doesn't fly a lot. Actually, none of my ducks fly a lot, but every single morning when I open the coop door, I'd say like half of them fly out of the coop and into the pond. And they always, most of the time, gracefully land in the pond. But Mr. Whip is not doing it anymore. He's falling, crashing, and he'll go from like being six feet up to just straight down on the rocks, which is of course not safe. So I had to make the decision to clip his wings because it was what was gonna keep him safe. And I ended up posting a video about how I clipped his wings, like how to do it the right way, because a lot of people were asking me when I mentioned that I was gonna need to clip his wings. Like, what is wing clipping? Does it hurt them? Why do you do it? Are there alternatives? Like, I had a lot of questions, and so I made like a five-minute long video and posted it the other day explaining wing clipping, explaining the nuances of wing clipping, explaining why you probably shouldn't do it for like a parrot-type bird, and how there's research to back that you shouldn't be doing this to a parrot-type bird for both their physical exercise needs as well as their enrichment needs, as well as just the emotions of a bird who is meant to fly all the time not having that ability. But it's very different for ducks and chickens than it is for parrots. And so I tried to do my best to explain that in this video, which is why it was so long, because I wanted people to really understand that you shouldn't just be clipping a bird's wings for no reason, right? Mr. Whip has a medical need for it. I know how to do it safely. If I don't do it, he's gonna continue to get more hurt. And he's also a duck, so a domestic duck at that. So flying is not a big part of his day or his life, really at all. Like I said, he flies out of the coop in the morning into the pond, it's maybe like 10 feet, and that's it. He doesn't fly at all for the rest of the day. He doesn't even fly back into the coop.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

One of the reasons, so if you ever observe wild ducks at like large scales, like I go out every year and I watch migrations and I see, like I go for the waterfowl, so I see all the wild ducks. One thing that's just very in ingrained in their survival instinct, and this is one of the very few times you'll actually see your domestic ducks actually fly or even attempt to fly if it's an unflighted breed, is something called flushing. So when one bird takes off in an urgency, it triggers all of the other birds to attempt to take off in an urgency. So what probably happens when you open the coop door is one bird gets excited and flushes, not for the same reasons that wild ducks flush, they flush out of excitement.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Oh, Male gets so excited. She's always the first duck in the pond. She like flies from the very back of the coop and like shoots up, and she's like almost at the top of the door. Like she could literally barely make it through the door because she's so high up, and she is always like multiple seconds ahead of all the other ducks getting into the pond because she's so excited.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

So when you get one duck that flies, it and you can you probably can see this in your flock, it triggers a chain reaction, and all the other birds start popping up into the air. And so, with Mr. Whip, especially, like living in a flock, it might be different if you had a solo duck, which you shouldn't have already. But say you have a solo duck indoors, you could probably get away with not clipping a duck, to be honest. That's blind. You could probably get away with it. But if it's living in a flock, he's still gonna hear and feel or whatever degree of vision he still has from that one eye, the urge to fly, um, and the urge to do that reaction that they have. And so you can't get away with not clipping in that case, because he's gonna, he's gonna fly. Even though ducks are very grounded animals compared to other birds, they still will have that response.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

It's just a really interesting topic to compare why wing clipping a duck is so different from wing clipping a parrot, because I think you actually taught me this when you made a video on it, like at least a year ago. The recent Yeah! You taught me that it's not just the fact that heavyweight duck breeds are large-bodied. That's not why they can't fly. There are other large-body birds, like, say, pelicans, who can fly. It's more about the body proportions in comparison to the size of their wings. And we have bred ducks, you know, for meat purposes or egg-laying purposes, to have large bodies, but we did not account for larger wings to be able to have them sustain flight.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Super interesting is that's actually completely unique to the mallard. So all of those mallard-derived breeds, that's why it didn't happen with muscovies, because when we bred muscovies to be larger, they're still much larger than their wild ancestors, really big ducks, but they have huge wingspans. So their wings grew with their body size, where that just for some reason didn't happen with the mallard. It's really cool because you can actually see this. So if you ever go look at your bantams, you'll notice that their wingtips go all the way to their base. So right to the butt of their tail, and it covers their full body. And if you actually think about it and go look at standards, which I do this all the time, you'll notice that their wings are not making it. They have the same size wings as the bantams. So their wings are not strong enough to carry their body weight. And I think it's have you ever seen the wingspan of an albatross? Yes. It's crazy. Like it's a when you pay attention to wingspans across various birds, you'll notice that underbody birds have really, really large wingspans, like shockingly large. Usually like, and so a domestic duck with that weight would need massive wings. And muscovies do have that. They have really big wings, which is super cool. And they have different, I'm gonna be I'm gonna geek out for a second. Because I don't know if you knew this, the mallard type ducks have wings that are designed for like long distance and fast flight. And muscovy-type birds, because they're roosting birds, have wing types that are designed to help them navigate through trees. So there's actually a completely different shape to their to their wings. I'm not doing this justice because I read about this years ago and I thought it was the coolest thing. But uh they have more rounded tips. So I think their I think their flight is slower but more navigated. Whereas mallards can fly very far for a very long time, and they're very effective with migration with their wings and that point. That's really interesting. I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

I think I don't know a lot about muscovies just because it's not a breed that I would own. But a muscovy people come at me. It's not because I think they're ugly, they're just very large birds, and I prefer very small birds. Like you were saying, with with the fact that mallard ducks migrate. The only the two, I would say the two biggest reasons, besides flushing, that you would see wild ducks flying is either migration or to escape a predator. And those aren't things that our domestic ducks have to do. My birds live in a predator-resistant aviary, so Mr. Whip is not flying to get away from predators, and they don't migrate because they're domestic ducks, so they don't even have the instincts telling them to migrate, nor are they physically capable of migrating, even if they wanted to. So clipping a duck's wings in that sense is just not equivalent to clipping a parrot's wings who really needs flight for exercise and mental stimulation. It's just that's just not a part of a duck's daily routine the way it is for a parrot.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

You also, this is something that I think is silly because people get so caught up on the migration thing. I and for those of you that don't know, I am a big bird nerd. This is my realm. I I am a geek when it comes to birds. They're my whole life. So I love migration and I I get excited for migration. I actually do have a birding profile, chirps and waffles. If you follow me on that platform, you know that you get to hear more about my birding antics and studying migration patterns and all of that. But this is so everybody obsesses over the fact that ducks migrate. Ducks migrate this, this, and that. Ducks are still partial migrants. They do not migrate. Cause like you there's you will see ducks in the winter, even in freezing cold places. And it can be a variety of things that make them stay. So it's not like, and I think that a lot of people that don't understand migration obsess over the concept of migration and migration instinct as like this beautiful thing that the birds look forward to. Migration is insanely metabolically demanding. Flight is insanely metabolically demanding. And so everybody obsesses over this concept of flight, especially for a bird like a duck. And I t I'm telling you, go outside and watch a duck fly in the sky and tell me if it looks fun to do for an extended period of time. They look like they are working their butts off. They're big birds, they gotta flap like crazy, they can't coast like some other birds can. Incredibly demanding of their bodies. And really interesting, they did a study on domestic ducks, just like you were, you know how you were just talking about their predator flight response? Because that is true of wild birds. Wild ducks are the worst things to photograph because if you get, if you breathe air in the neighborhood of a wood duck, that thing is gone. Like I I flushed ducks, and people are always like ethical photography. How the heck are you not flushing ducks? Is my question because I didn't even know the ducks were in this area and they're in the sky the minute that I'm like I crunch a leaf, they're gone. So wild ducks really depend on that flight to escape predators and they're flying constantly, and that's the reason for it. They did a study on domestic ducks, and I think I was talking to you about this the other day, where they were studying if domestic ducks still utilize or prefer that flight response in domestication settings and how their behavior has changed by being domesticated and not being exposed to the same threat levels as the wild. And they found that in domestic settings, and also this is very unfortunate because this is why a lot of our birds die in predator attacks, even flighted birds. I hear all the time about call ducks getting taken by predators and stuff like that. They prioritize walking or running over flight, imminently threatening situations. So that's why if you have some ducks that are skittish, right? You go to approach them and they start running or walking away. They don't take off like a wild duck does. If you pay attention to a wild duck, there's no run-walk. It's in the air, you know? And so that's really interesting that they actually have lost that instinct to take to the air and they prioritize running and walking. And I think that really speaks to how grounded these birds are compared to their wild ancestors and how much less meaningful it is for them to maintain their ability to flight because they don't want to use it. And I think that it's funny to try to preserve it and it's hilarious when this conversation comes up and they're like, they want to fly. No, they don't. And guess what? I don't want to run a marathon. I probably could if I trained for it. I'm not gonna like if you took away my right to run a marathon, okay, go for it.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Uh just that comparison in my book, Raising Ducks for Beginners and Beyond. I was like, your domestic ducks are not going to migrate even if they wanted to, because they can't. They don't, they don't have that ability, they haven't trained for it, they they don't do that kind of flying, they're not capable of it. No. And another thing that you just reminded me of is you know the phrase sitting duck. I have had ducks that when approached by a predator, just sit. And hunk her down somewhere and don't.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Peanut, peanut, peanut will fully let you kill her. Like she would embrace it and embrace death because she's that lazy. Like, Didi, when you walk through my call duck pen, you have to drag your feet. Cause they will literally let you hurt them and they will just yell. And Didi, one time he stepped on Dumplings' tail. This was I almost got a divorce. I almost left my husband. Because she, it's her fault. She watched him do it. She was sitting there with her head tucked behind her head, watched his foot go all the way down, was so lazy, didn't want to get up. He stepped on her tail. She started screaming, bloody murder. There was like a bunch of little feathers pulled out. I was like sick. I picked her up and I was like, How dare you? He was like, they need to move. They need to move. And that's how our domestics can be with predators because you think about we're predators to them. We really are. And so by constantly exposing ourselves to them, we are constantly exposing them to predator stimulus. So of course that behavior is going to be reduced because they've learned a thousand times that we're not going to hurt them. And so that applies to many animals. My ducks will walk straight up to my dog's mouth and they will be like, Yeah. They don't care.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

We I had a situation a long, long time ago, like back when I was living in my parents' house. And back then I did free range ducks, which was a hard lesson to learn. But I had a duck, it was actually Munchkin's sister, Kava, and we had a black bear just straight up walk into the open door of the coop. That's terrifying. So the ducks are free-ranging. I don't actually know if there were any ducks in the coop at the time. I actually wasn't even home. But my mom or my sister like caught pictures of the bear as it was exiting the coop. And so I rush home and all the ducks are accounted for except one. But the bear like didn't have there was no evidence that the bear got this duck. So I'm like, where could she be? She was just hunkered down, sitting in the woods. Like it was almost like she saw the bear and just decided, I'm just gonna sit here like a sitting duck and hope that no one sees me. And because she was so quiet and so still and like trying to make herself small, I just had to like search and search and search for her in the woods. Because like she wouldn't come out. Like it's not like she was far away. She just wouldn't come out of the woods because she was scared.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

This brings up, because I'm very I don't clip. I don't come down on duck keepers that clip at all. No matter your circumstance, I do not come down on you. One, because it's although there's not been direct studies on how clipping affects ducks specifically, like there has on parrots. If you look at the behavioral studies of ducks, and I know you've looked at those too, like 95% of their enrichment behaviors are on land or in water. So it's like, what am I risking 5% of their life for this clipping thing if I especially because there's a lot of risks to keeping a flighted bird outdoors, like an astronomical amount of risks. And people aren't accounting, like a parrot, I I have parrots. I would literally never clip them unless, like, if it was medically necessary. And in that case, I would actually consider euthanasia because I would consider the quality of life diminishment of them not being flighted. But they're living inside my house. I can control this environment. Whereas ducks can fly into the middle of the road and get hit by a car. And one thing, like Chrissy was just saying, one thing that ducks do and fear responses still, like we were talking about that flushing, sometimes even domestics will flush if they're flighted and then hunker down in the woods. And then you run into a predicament of if they hunker down in the woods, they're out past dark, really high predation risks, you might not be able to find them. They might not come back. Usually they have good homing instincts, but not every duck comes back. And so if you're not going to be able to provide a full closed aviary, me and Chrissy both like to, we prefer to keep our flighted birds unclipped if we can. I actually do keep a flighted bird unclipped and free range, which is crazy. But that duck has proved to me over the course of years that he can responsibly maintain his ability to fly. So he will do a lap, he's an angel, I love him. He'll do a lap, he'll go far too, and then he will return right back into the area that he is supposed to be when he's done. He will not, he won't land in various places, he won't land in the road, he only ever lands in the area that we have fenced off for the big ducks. So he's like, if he started risking his flight, I would clip him down. And it would not be super concerning to me that I would be making this massive impact on his life because of the behavior of ducks. It's not the same as parrots. You own, actually, you've owned both. You own pigeons, you own parrots. Ducks are a completely different animal behaviorally. Parrots and pigeons are not as efficient walking on land, even. Walking is more exhausting to them than flight. That's why junkos, you know, dark-eyed junkos, they hop instead of walk because walking is more tiring to them than hopping. So that's why they like bounce around. A lot of songbirds will do that. So ducks, if you ever watch a duck walk, they're like very efficient. They like stroll like honestly, like a person would. They walk so well. So that's why they prefer it. It's not, it doesn't, it doesn't cost them a lot of energy to walk. That's what their preferred method is swimming or walking, and then it's flight. So it's like the opposite of other bird species, and that's what confuses people.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

And that's also why, like, I totally understand if you get flighted bantam breeds of ducks and you just clip them when you first get them, or you keep them in a pen when you first get them. But if you plan on free ranging them, it makes sense to clip them when you first get them so they learn where home is, they learn where their food is, and then you probably never have to do it again because they will learn their surroundings, know where they're safe, know where they can get free food. But like I had a friend who got her very first call ducks and just put them out with the rest of her flock, and they flew away like the next day because they didn't know where home was. I mean, it sucks to say this, but like they probably didn't survive because no, no, definitely not. The predator risk is so high, and they have livestock guardian dogs, so they would have been safe free-ranging in her situation. But domestic ducks don't fare well in the wild, and if they had just been clipped temporarily one time, they probably would still be alive. And I like feel bad saying that, but that's why I'm not gonna judge people who let their birds that are free ranged. I mean, like mine are in an aviary, so I know they can't fly away, but I still give them supervised free range time, and when they're free ranging, like you said, the only time they fly when they're free ranging is if they flush, which is usually because they get like scared by an airplane, like they think it's gonna eat them, and then they're like, Yeah, let's all flush. This is so terrifying. Except some of my older ducks seem like they might just understand what an airplane is at this point. Like Raven doesn't really she's just like, really, guys, you flushed for that. It's just an airplane.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

I always watch and peanut chooses to just hunker down in place in an open field if something happens. Like she will just fully let it go. Like she's willing to die at any point. There's something wrong with her. This is how I would do it. Say I really I was worried about my bantam ducks flying away. I keep my bantams in an aviary so I don't run into this, but say you have like an open top aviary, you have a fence or something like that. Free ranging clipped bantams is like putting out a meal for hawks. I'm going to warn you. It's insanely like there's such a balancing, and that's why my that's why my bantams are in an aviary. Call ducks, Australian spotted ducks, they're so, so small. They're a carryable weight for most of the aerial predators that you're gonna be dealing with in your backyard.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

I always recommend keeping bantams in an aviary just for their own safety.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

But at the end of the day, I do know that people are going to free range them. If you have a livestock guardian dog, it's it's a completely different circumstance. Like, I think you're much safer free-ranging clipped bantams, but I also do want people to understand that like you're gonna, as an owner, every single person has to balance all of these risks and make their decision, right? And that's up to you. I just want to make sure you guys understand that these ducks, these flight, if you're getting a flighted breed, unless you have a mascoby, that's a different story. But if you're getting a flighted breed and it's mallard derived, it's going to be a very small bird because of that wing, that wing thing. And the only way you can get a flighted mallard-derived domestic breed is if it's small. And so usually if you have a flighted bird, it's going to be a small bird. And when you take away their ability to fly specifically, then you run into the situation of I just created a buffet for an aerial predator. And I was actually talking to someone about this today. Uh, so it's fresh on my mind. There's a couple things that I would recommend. I think Chrissy will like these ideas for free ranging bantoms. Don't free range them the first year. If you wanna, it you could clip them, but I think you should just don't free range first year. Keep them in a run first year. Make sure that they know where home is, and then do supervised free range with their flight ability, and they'll know where food is by that time. A lot of the times when people see bantams fly away completely, the situation was that they never did a homing period where the birds learned where home is. They put them outside from inside, and that bird said, This is a new place, I'm out of here. And that's very normal. So if you do a period of like integration where they they're locked up, they're safe, you can clip them at that point if you really want to, but you probably don't need to. And do a year, then get into free ranging. Try, if you're gonna free range, try to keep that flight ability if you can. It is at the end of the day, one of their escape routes, especially for aerial predators and stuff like that. Ground predators, to be honest, they might not take off in time anyway. Give it a shot. And then if they really aren't behaving, I think the only I think the only way to safely free range bantams is clip them and get an LGD in a lot of cases. I think that I would not feel comfortable free ranging my bantams. So this time of year, I actually don't free range my bantams at all because of hawk behavior this time of year. They're the hawks are so hungry because it's end of winter. And hawks are bold as heck. Like, you think you being out there is gonna stop a hawk from taking your bird and uh-uh. They'll come down right next to you.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

It's you also have like a much more open area for your birds to free range. Whereas, like when I supervise free range my birds, they're like in between the coop and the house and a fence on one side. So it's like way less risky because a hawk needs enough space to be able to come down, potentially pick up the bird, and fly back out. Where like you can't really do that if there's not space to fly. Obviously, it's still a risk though, and it does freak me out. Like, I am constantly looking for hawks when I'm out there supervising them because I would be horrified. But they just I feel bad. They just, they just love going out in the grass so much. I'm just like, I have to let them out sometimes, but most of their life they're in the aviary.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah, I let mine this time of year it's snow. When it's snow, I'm like, whatever. You're not you're not missing anything out here. No, they're good in there. But studying is actually interesting you brought up like all of the clutter because studying hawk behavior, I've like, because I go out and I photograph hawks all the time. And I'm kind of okay, this kind of might make me a scumbag, but sometimes like there'll be a hawk up by my big duck area, and I'm kind of letting it do its thing. Like I'm kind of like studying it a little. Like as I'm like, you know what, like I'm right here. If it comes down, I'll I'll get the bird. I'll be I won't let it kill the bird. But I was curious. This is why I was doing this little experiment where my ducks felt like bait for me for a minute, because hawks, quite literally, they'll crash into the top of my call duck aviary and they do that, but they will not go after my standards. It's never happened. They've never they've been, I've watched them like literally flying up and around my standards. And so I started to get curious because for a hawk to go for it uh for prey, what it likes to do is it likes to flush the birds and then pick out the weakest one and take that one. It doesn't like to attack a large flock, so large flocks naturally gives you some level of aerial protection, and they don't like to swoop unless they have a big clearance. And so I was thinking, I wonder if the reason that they're not coming in is because of the clutter. They don't have a clean path to make an escape. Granted, hawks are very, very agile, they're incredible hunters, but you'll notice that hawks like to hunt in open fields. So my hawks, I worry about them a lot less now because I've been studying my hawks that come to my land so much for so long. They hunt in my open field. And I know if I let my birds into that open field, God. I know that they would be, the hawks would be coming in for it, but they don't like the fenced-in areas because they don't have a clean sweep. They don't have a good way out of there. Yeah. And so I realized that that's why they don't hunt it.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Yeah, and I think also hawks are more likely to go for something that's an easy catch. They don't want to expel all their energy fighting a pecan-sized duck, right? Because with something small like a rat or a mouse, the hawk can come in, swoop down, catch it, and then carry it away to somewhere where it's safe to eat its prey. When hawks can only generally carry their own body weight, right? Right? You're the bird person, so that's why I'm asking you.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

I fear, I fear they can carry more than their body weight. Let me check. A red tail is like the most common. Let me check the carry weight for a red tail.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

So funny enough, the way that I like learned about that is that I swear to god, every time I like go to like a raptor show, right? They always say, like, everybody says that hawks eat chickens, but they don't because hawks actually can't carry chickens. And I'm like, well, that's not true because hawks can't attack a chicken without carrying it away. Which is the thing. Chickens are very light. The ducks.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Chickens are very light. So it's actually a four-pound hawk, like a large, that's a big hawk, can carry roughly two pounds easily. Hawks will try, like, it's not like they have a scale. So, like, they'll they'll see something and they'll pick it up and they'll try to carry it. I've seen them do it with like bigger animals or or roadkill. Hawks have I'm gonna geek out too far into the whole hawk conversation because I love I love raptors, carry off a lot of roadkill and stuff. So you'll see them carrying animals that are like much larger than you'd expect. But so a red-tailed hawk specifically can carry two to four pounds. So chickens fall cleanly into that category, which is why I think chickens are so often a target, and a domestic duck isn't nearly as appealing. Right. Because we're typically riding much higher in any category other than bantams, but that's why bantams are like picked off so easily when clipped, because they're like, that's a perfect snack, you know?

SPEAKER_01 36:53

So it's not that a hawk can't kill a full-size heavyweight breed. It's that it it's a lot more work for them and they have to be able to eat their prey where they catch their prey. Which, if they don't feel safe, or if there's, say, a goose around that's gonna attack the hawk that's attacking the duck, that's not really a safe situation for them. And your duck might have a better chance of actually getting out of that situation.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

I don't really worry about my standard size. They live in a just a fenced-in area. They free range way more than my other breeds. But when you're running the most risk, if you're keeping all of the birds in an area, like our fenced-in area, the hawk is gonna see the facts that those birds are all right there. So if it sits and stays to eat its prey, it's gonna have to sit there with all of these birds. Whereas, um, especially geese or something like that, it's not gonna want to mess with the geese. Whereas if you're free-ranging, the birds kind of branch out and are in a bunch of different places, in which case a hawk would have a much easier time flushing a small group of birds. Say there's like a group of three, it could flush that small group of birds and sit and eat, and that might be more appealing. Additionally, there's just certain seasons where hawks are much, much bolder. And that happens to be right now. So there's juvenile hawk season when there's a bunch of juveniles. That is the worst season. And that is the juvenile hawks don't know how to hunt. They're learning their carry weight, they're learning everything, and they just are killing things. And it's chaotic. We always get Cooper's hawks during juvenile hawk season, and I get stressed about them maiming my bird, like hurting my bird, because they they literally hang out like right above the big duck area. People would be so nervous if they saw my chillness around hawks, but it's because I really do understand their hunting behaviors because I know the Cooper's hawk is not going to be able to do anything. I also know Goosey Goo, she would mess up a Cooper's hawk. That goose is a protector at heart. Like she protects my ducks like nothing else. I trust her more than I trust myself to take care of it. So the Cooper's hawk's a very small hawk, definitely not a threat to my ducks, really. But I am worried, I do worry about it hurting my ducks or coming down on my ducks, especially during juvenile hawk season. So I'm just a little bit more careful that time of year. Um, then when it comes to the red tails and stuff, I they just they can do it. And this time of the year when they're desperate or when they're learning to hunt, they're definitely a concern. But your biggest concern is owls. Owls are insane. We have a great horned here, and I was stressed about that. Now, a great horned or an eagle, so eagles don't really hunt farms much at all. You hear about it every once in a while, but it really is people that have like beautiful plots of land. Congratulations, I'm very jealous of you. Because it takes quite a bit for an eagle to take to a hunting area.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Only see eagles like around the river or around a massive like lake. They're not just hanging around.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

They fly. We have a couple that live down the road and they fly overhead at my house. And I never really worry when I see them, they coast over. They're not gonna hunt that little tiny.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

And they're like so high up, like when they fly over. They're not like yeah, looking down at our birds.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Maybe, but not to hunt them. If you have like a really gorgeous river or pond on your property and your ducks are out on that, yeah, I'd be worried about eagles. But here in like in a farm setting, you don't typically see eagles hunt that much. I I can't, you can never say never because these birds are in a survival situation. They do things that blow everyone's mind. But it's not a typical behavior of them. Owls, though, uh, put your birds away when it gets dark outside. Because great horns, a great so to put it into perspective, you probably don't worry about much with aerial predators with a goose. A great horn can kill my geese, and I have a great horned. And they're silent, and I know that. Their wings are silent. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

When they flap, they don't make sound, which is very cool. But like you wouldn't hear them coming, which is yeah, horrifying.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

They're they're insane. Owls go crazy, and great horned owls specifically can carry so much more than they weigh. It's insane. They kill like small mammals, like yeah, not when I say small mammals, not like tiny mammals, like mice and stuff, like they'll kill a skunk, they'll kill like a like a full. It's creepy. It's crazy what they could do. I'm afraid of a grey horned owl is gonna beat the shit out of me one day. So they're insane. And they have such strong talents. And that's like a lot of people worry, um, just so that people, I feel like this is comforting to a lot of people. I know it's comforting to me. So that people know when it comes to raptors, I don't know. First of all, I don't know how we fell down this rabbit hole of aerial predators, but I guess we're adding that to our topics for today because we're like in it now. Just so people know, when it comes to raptors, a lot of people think that death by raptor for their livestock is like this really torturous death. It's genuinely one of the quickest and kindest deaths that could happen to your animals. A domestic cat is way worse. Like if a domestic cat did something like have you ever seen a cat with its prey? Or like any cat toying around with it, they just toy around with it, they keep it alive. Um, dogs, they're typically not as quick. A raptor is very, very quick. Get in there and they completely neutralize it, and then they go, and it's over. And so it's really just for the peace of mind of anybody that's lost a bird in that way, just know that it's not, it looks horrible. It's not nearly as horrible for the animal that went through it as you would expect a predator attack to be. If I lost a bird on my property and it was a raptor, it would be a relief to me compared to some other animals.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

As much as we would love to talk about wing clipping and aerial predators all day, because we could go on for hours. I think it's time that we get into our next segment. But before we do that, we have a message from our sponsor, which we are very excited about because today's episode is sponsored by Metzer Farm.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

I think I speak for all of us when I say that some of our most beloved babies that we have here on our farm come from Metzer Farms. They are truly the best when it comes to waterfowl. And even though this episode's sponsored, I genuinely can say that from my chest. I have had the luxury and the pleasure of talking to Katie and Mark and the Metzer Farms family. They're incredible people. They genuinely care so much about the animals that they work with, which, as a waterfowl lover, it means so much to me to have access to a hatchery that cares as much as we do. I have a Metzer Farms baby right here, right now, and some of our most beloved ducks come from Metzer Farms. You guys all probably know Peanut. Peanut is a Metzer Farms baby, and so you can imagine how much that hatchery means to me. I love their birds. I have a variety of breeds from them, and they're all gorgeous. Their uh Welsh Harlequins are stunning. Like I cannot hype up their Welsh Harlequins enough. We have peaches. Gorgeous, gorgeous birds. Such an incredible experience going through Metzer Farms to get your birds. I've ordered from other places in the past, and I've never had quite the same experience as I have with Metzger Farms. And once I started going to Metzger Farms, I never looked back. It was the place to go for a waterfowl. They're truly the waterfowl experts. We love them so much. Chrissy, I'm sure you've had similar experiences with them.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

And one of my favorite things about Metzer Farms is that you can order sexed ducklings for them. And Emily and I are always talking about you have to have a good ratio of male to female ducks. So if getting a certain number of females is important to you, like it is many of us, ordering through Metzger Farms is the way to go. I have called ducks and Australian spotted ducks from Metzrofarms. Farms, and I just adore all of them. And they also tend to have very, very great personalities. One of my call ducks from them, Blackberry, is the sweetest and friendliest and most outgoing duck in my flock. She's actually duck dad's favorite duck. And it's just incredible to see how friendly she is. Receiving her as well as blueberry and pancake was just so incredible. I had a great experience with them. Shipping times were fast, and everybody arrived happy and healthy, and they're still happy and healthy to this day. So I love Metzer Farms genuinely from the bottom of my heart, and I'm so excited that they are sponsoring today's episode.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

So awesome that they're getting birds to us this quickly. Like it gives me so much more confidence. I feel so much safer shipping when I know I'm getting the birds for Metzer than I have in the past, getting shipped birds because they've been so quick with their shipping time. It's wild.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

We're gonna have to like really get into it in another episode about why Metzer Farm shipping times are so fast and why their hatchery is located where it is to make that happen. But I think we didn't have a canyon marked on for that to like really get into that.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

So it could be the whole topic. The 17 hours, the last time I ordered birds, they literally spent 17 hours total in transit. That's it. From Metzer's door to my door. The box was still hot. Like it was incredible. I was like, I I it was blown away. And I it has been that way ever since they made that awesome change, which just that alone uh like speaks to how much they care about their birds and what they're doing. And it's so soup, soup. There's nowhere to go up there. It's just really an awesome experience. I love getting birds from them. I get in my feels when we talk about Metzger. I get like very I'm so passionate about that hatchery. I truly love them so much.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

And we're real Metzer Farms customers too. And I think like we were obviously Metzer Farms fans before they sponsored the podcast. So thank you so much, Metzger Farms, for sponsoring today's episode. We love you. If any of our listeners are in the market for ducks, you can check out MetzerFarms at wwwmetserfarms.com. We'll have Metzger Farms website linked in the show notes. So while we're on the topic of Metzer Farms, it just feels right to now move into our breed of the week, which is the runner duck. And I know, Emily, you ordered the runner duck assortment from Metzger Farms last year. So can you tell me about your experience with that as well as your experience with the breed in general?

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Yeah, okay. I love runner ducks. I got my runner ducks because it actually last year, was it a year before? I think it might have been the year before. Maybe I'm a liar. Maybe it was the year before. It might be two years old now. But we got the runner duck assortment. And when you order the runner duck assortment with Metzer Farms, we got all females. You're able to get gender-specific runner ducks through them, and you get a mixture of whatever colors hatch that day. Now, for their runner duck assortment, you're not always guaranteed to get all of the colors. If you order a minimum of six, they guarantee you to at least get two different color variations. They offer a bunch of color variations. We have the fawn in white, the blues, the black, the chocolate, and the silver, which is the newest one that you're of the silver. That's the newest one that you're able to select. Love it. It's the prettiest one. That's a Le Mans. We call her Le Mont. It's like French lemon. I don't know. It's what we call her. Fun fact about their chocolate runners, by the way, is they're the most likely to lay true blue eggs. Their eggs are gorgeous, gorgeous, beautiful. It's they're so rich in color. I wanted another chocolate runner last year, but I ended up not adding it and I regret it. But runner ducks are a fantastic breed. We love ours. One of the things that runner ducks are really prized for is their foraging abilities. So the reason that they actually have that upright stance is because they were originally bred for pest control. And the thing that that upright stance allows them to do that other duck breeds can't do is it allows them to move very, very fast and ridge very high on plants. And so they don't really waddle. They exclusively run. It's kind of funny looking and they look like little bowling pens. So they were able, the reason that that stance was so cherished by like vineyards and stuff that were utilizing them for pest control, they were able to cover large distances in a short period of time while providing a larger scale of pest control on the plant. So this is this breed is your breed if you are a gardener. This is the breed that you want. Absolutely. Wonderful breed. I think they make a fantastic pet breed. They're a little bit more skittish than some other breeds, but in the same note that they're skittish, they're incredibly charming. They're absolutely hilarious to watch. They're very fast, so you might not be able to handle them like some other breeds, but they're so funny and so curious that it makes up for that skittish nature. They're decent egg layers. There's some runner ducks, like some traditionally bred runner ducks that can lay like a crazy amount of eggs. I think it's like 250 to 300 eggs a year. Talked about this in the podcast before. Whenever you're looking for egg production of your birds, you need to go to the breeding stock. You don't need to know the general population. You want to know what the breeding stock that you're buying from is seeing as their averages. So I believe Metzger Farm's egg production on their runner ducks is like 100 to 180 eggs per year. Let me double check myself. I just double-checked myself and I was right. Metzer Farms reporting their runner ducks to be laying between 100 to 180 eggs per year, which is really good for a duck. That puts you steadily into like the higher production category. Eggs are a little bit smaller than some of my heavier weight breeds, but I wouldn't say it's significant. I think they're more on par with like a khaki-sized egg. Their assorted runners are fun though. And actually, when I added them, that's when I started to have the most fun egg collecting because their assorted runners did give me like a nice variety of egg colors, which is hard to get with ducks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

So it's so fun.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah, I love this breed. I always say that if I could only own one duck breed for the rest of my duck keeping days, it would be runner ducks. I think it's awesome that you can get a wide variety of colors within one breed. And that way, if you do want to do like breeding projects or hatching eggs, this is an awesome breed for you to still have a very ornamental flock within just one breed.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

One thing that I've heard a lot from runner duck owners is that they swim less than other mallard-derived domestic duck breeds. Do you find that to be true in your experience? I don't find that to be really true in my experience at all.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

I only have seven to eight or six. I think I have six or seven. So I can't like promise you that I'm right. I don't, I don't know. I haven't done research on it. That's what I've been hearing. But no, I if anything, if anything, they swim more. So I don't I don't want to accuse anybody that holds that opposite experience that I do of this. My concern with people when they say that, because this is just something that happens a lot with duck care, is that they're actually trying to find a reason to give their ducks less water.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

See, but I've only ever heard it like with runner duck people. And they're they'll often tell me that like they have a pond and their runner ducks don't use it. And they're like, what am I doing wrong? Why are my runner ducks not using the pond?

SPEAKER_00 50:58

My runner ducks are always in the pond. Like more, like like all the time. I I don't find them to be a non-aquatic breed at all. I don't know. This is what's interesting to me. And again, I'm not trying to discredit, like, I'm just talking this out loud. I'm not saying that everybody is lying. Does that make sense? I don't want people to come for me, even if you hold the opposite stance. Like I said, I only have six of these birds. I'm spe I'm purely speaking from experience. We're all good. You're allowed to have your own personal experience. I'm scared. Why would they would they have that? What in what in their nature? Like they're still a maladrived breed. What how would how would us breeding for this stance, and like there might be something that people have here, but how would breeding for this stance reduce their interest in water?

SPEAKER_01 51:42

So I had wondered, yeah. So I had wondered if it had something to do with the fact that they're generally known as a more skittish breed. Are they like afraid of their pond? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

It could also be something like that, because one thing that a lot of people don't account for, and this could be a whole episode in itself, so I'm not gonna get too far into it, is domestic ducks are often afraid of large bodies of water. And people are shocked by that. They'll have these beautiful, gorgeous large ponds. Yeah. And they'll be like, why aren't my ducks using it? And it's because ducks can perceive the predator threat within deep water. And so sometimes they don't like ponds. So if you put out a kiddie pool sometimes, you'll actually notice that your domestic ducks prioritize the kiddie pool over the large pond. So that also might be why some people, with the that's a good point. The runner ducks being more skittish might be more afraid of large ponds than other breeds. I have a small earthen pond that mine use all the time and that they're in there. I I bet you they're in there right now.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

So that also could be part of it. Also, your runner ducks have other duck breeds with them to like show them, hey, this water is safe. Whereas I find that a lot of people who I think have asked me that question, like, why are my runner ducks not swimming? They only have runner ducks. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:51

That another instance. That makes more sense. I wasn't sure because there is a tendency in the farming realm to try to find an excuse to give birds less water. So I I've only heard of this narrative from a few people, and I wasn't sure if it was coming from a group of people that were like, they need less water because of X, Y, and Z. There's no, and my point was saying it's not an excuse to give them less water, is because biologically, there's nothing different other than stance that they were bred for. There's no like difference in their need for water when it comes to maintaining that feather health. So they shouldn't require less water in that sense. You don't want to restrict their water in that sense because they still need it to maintain their feathers the same way as any other mallard-derived breed would. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, because I also don't know that much about muscovy. We need to have like a Muscovy expert on so that they could talk about Muscovies. I know a Muscovy expert. Muscovies don't require water at the same caliber as mallard-derived breeds. Are their feathers stronger? I believe that's true. I think that's true too. I feel like I've heard that before. I don't, I haven't dove really far into it, but I think that is the case. And geese actually have a stronger feather structure that requires less wet preening. To my understanding, I'm again spitting this off with like surface level research done in this concept because this is something that I'm curious about. But geese, their feather structure is slightly different and requires less overall like water involvement to keep their feathers strong.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

It makes sense, because don't geese find more of their food on land than in water, whereas dabbling ducks are more likely to find more of their food like dabbling on water.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Yeah. Geese actually, yeah, in their land, they're much more of land animals than ducks are because they're always grazing. If you're interested in runner ducks and you're looking for an awesome place to get some runner ducks, check out Metzer Farms. You can check out their assorted runner ducks option. I love that option. I think it's so fun to get a variety of colors that you don't know what you're gonna get because it's like opening a mystery box. I love it. Check them out. They do have the option to select your colorations as well, and they do have that option to select gender-specific ducklings so you can make sure that you get your ratio right from the start, which is fantastic. Um, you can check them out at MetzerFarms.com, and I can personally speak for their runner ducks being awesome. I think you'll have a great experience, and I think it's an awesome breed for beginners and beyond, really.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

So, to close out this episode, we are gonna be answering some questions that were sent in from followers on our social media channels. First question I have for you, Emily, is the Waddle on Inn asked, How do you both protect your flock against predators?

SPEAKER_00 55:15

It's a good question. So, my big duck flock, we have geese. Some people get mad when you talk about geese as protection animals, but real realistically, geese are they are good alarm systems. They're gonna let you know if there's a predator coming. And the sad reality of geese is they'll go down loudly. If you if it's something is affecting your flock, you're gonna hear the geese go down. You might not hear the ducks go down. And so we have geese for that. That's to protect my big duck flock. And we also have perimeter fencing that is hardware cloth. And the reason that I do hardware cloth on perimeter fencing, I don't expect my perimeter fencing to be incredibly secure, but it's gonna stop any daytime predators from doing the grab, from reach in the fence hole and grab the bird and try to pull them through the fence. So it's an added level of deterrent. And the big thing about the perimeter fencing, and why I think perimeter fencing is so important, is stray dogs. Stray dogs take out a lot of people's flocks, and a perimeter fence is incredibly effective against a stray dog. Foxes also are gonna be deterred by a fence because they're not gonna want to be trying to get around that fence during the daytime, especially if they're desperate and out during the day. Put your birds away before it's dark. Like, please. It's so important that your birds are locked up at nightfall because once nightfall hits, that's when the predators come out. So that's the biggest and most important thing I think you will ever do to keep your flock safe is making sure that your birds are always put away at dark. In our aviary for our bantam, since our bantams are more vulnerable, they have a closed top aviary, they have a roof on their aviary because we have a bigger ale predator concern with that flock than we do our standard duck flock, and they also don't have geese running with that flock. So that's why they're in there. And the same thing for my chickens, they have a closed top aviary. Anything small gets closed top, and that's that's the main things that I do. I think you could add some things here too.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Yeah, for my bantam flock, I do the same thing. Everything, including the roof and three feet underground, is covered in hardware cloth. I went a little what some people would call a little bit overboard, but I think it was necessary when I was building the duck's pen, and I did both quarter inch hardware cloth and half-inch hardware cloth because the half-inch hardware cloth was really strong. It was like 16 gauge. Um, but the quarter-inch hardware cloth is what keeps mice out as best as I possibly can because the mice can't fit through the quarter inch. And then I also have like this is a silly, like, this is more of a silly thing that I do, but I have those like fake decoy owls out around everywhere and I move them around sometimes. That's not really like a you're definitely not gonna get aerial predators if you have decoy owls, but why not? Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_00 57:44

It might work. I I used to do that and then I stopped because I have real owls. So yeah, I was like, all right, if that's not if the real owls aren't working, then this probably isn't gonna work. Don't use chicken wire. If I could like tattoo this on my chest, I would beg you not to use chicken wire because the thing about chicken wire is it keeps your birds in, but it does not keep predators out. I quite literally would rather free range my birds full time than keep them in chicken wire housing because all you're doing is creating a little meal in a box where the birds can't get away and it's a nightmare. Please don't use it. Use the hardware cloth. You're gonna save yourself, even if you haven't had a predator attack yet. It's gonna happen eventually with that chicken wire, and you're gonna end up replacing the wire, which is gonna be expensive, and all your birds. So just go ahead, even if you just skirt it, you don't have to do a lot. Me and Chrissy go hard. We love our hardware cloth. We're like hardware cloth's number one clientele base. Please, please no chicken wire. It's the best thing, it's the best investment you'll make. It's slightly more expensive, but at the end of the day, it's way cheaper to do it right the first time and cover it than to replace your flock and the wire at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Yes. And I have to hold myself back a little bit here because I I could really go on about the specifics of what kind of hardware cloth you should be using. But in the same breath as using chicken wire, hardware cloth comes in different gauges, which is how thick it is. Like 23 gauge hardware cloth could be ripped by a claw. It's not strong. Yeah, you could if you can cut it with scissors, it is not strong enough to protect them from predators. And I think that's where a lot of people go wrong when it comes to hardware cloth, and why people some people are like, well, hardware cloth doesn't actually do anything. And I'm like, if you are using the cheapest, highest gauge, which is the thinnest wire you can find. No, it's not hardware, it's not predator proof. I say use a 19 gauge as a minimum, but the stronger you can find, the better. Do you want to hear my hardware cloth story?

SPEAKER_00 59:40

That's so funny. Yeah. How I know our hardware cloth is good. By the way, though, mice have little razor frickin' blade, stupid teeth, and they can't chew through hardware cloth. I know a lot of people say that they can't. They freaking can! I've seen them do it. I hate them shits. And it's like 19 gauge too, and they'll they'll just work on it. And if anything works on it, it's gonna make a little hole and then they can fit through the smallest hole. But against ground predators and larger predators, that stuff is solid. Now, the uh so I have the hardware cloth test of the year because when we were building my rabbit run, because we used hardware cloth on my rabbit run, I had left it out on my back porch, and I forgot that every morning my dog, because my dog books it out the front door, and I had left it out, and since it was like clear, because it was dark outside, and like you can't really see the box of hardware cloth, because that's what it was. It was fully hardware cloth. My dog took off my porch, apparently. I didn't know this happened because I woke up later and saw it because I was letting it out in the dark and must have hit the the hardware cloth full throttle, like full sprint, face first. Because I looked at my dog later in the day and I was like, why is her nose like cheese grated? Like her nose was all cut up, and I was like, what the heck happened to her? So I thought she fought something in my yard. And then I went outside and I looked at the rabbit thing. There was a dent in her nose pieces in the thing. And so I was like, oh my god, I did not even think of that, you poor thing. I was like, I did not think of you sprinting into this because you could see it during the day. But yeah, guess what? That thing did not, it did not give. So she ran into that full force big dog, and that stuff held up. So that's why it is the gold standard when it comes to keeping predators out. Absolutely. Quacks in the city asks, how can someone tell the difference between a laying hen and a broody hen?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

Well, that's a good question. So a laying hen is simply one of your ducks is laying eggs actively, usually every day, every other day. Sometimes some of my older ducks only lay an egg like once a week. They're just laying an egg. You will be finding eggs in nesting boxes. Um, you might be finding eggs just around because ducks don't always use nesting boxes, but you're just finding eggs around. That's a laying hen. A broody hen is actually sitting on those eggs. So broody hens tend to be a bit spicy behaviorally. Um, if you were to approach a broody hen sitting on her nest, she is probably not gonna be a happy with you. She's gonna hiss at you, she's gonna have a very loud, honking, broody quack. And I always say once you've heard the broody quack, you know the broody quack. It's a very distinct duck quack that only really happens when ducks are broody. So if they're actually physically sitting on their eggs, then they're broody. If they're not, they're not broody.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

And they will make a really disgusting poop every morning. Because they don't poop when they're on the nest. They hold their poop. And so there's the brood poop every morning when they come out, because they'll typically come out and get their water and their food because they'll leave the nest once a day. And that is disgusting. It's the most disgusting thing you will ever smell come out of your ducks. So you'll know. I fear that will be your moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

So Jenna asked, What do you do about aggressive boys during the spring? And I know you touched on this a little bit earlier.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

I did touch on this a little bit. Jail for all of them. It depends. So every Drake is different, and I always tell people to not immediately panic when you get drakes because sometimes you get blessed and you have some good boys and you don't have issues. And some flock dynamics change everything. I think the four to six females per male rule is totally just this ballpark recommendation. Don't ever expect that to be a magic number. It's not always gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

So I always have jail set up in some degree. The only time I don't have jail set up is for my big duck flock, but that's because my big duck flock, my drakes are older and they're not as much of a problem. And what I do for the Drake jail is once they start to be bad, I just reduce my Drake number in my in my flock to smaller numbers. Right now we have two Drakes in, and then my boys are on a rotation. So two Drakes are in right now, and then they'll get about a week in the pen, and then I'll go get my other two boys. Those two boys will go to jail, and then the new two boys will get time in, and I just rotate them around. And then I adjust that ratio based on how everybody's behaving and how my females are looking. So I look for signs of overbreeding. If the girls look stressed and they look like they're being overbred, drop the ratio back down to one to 22, which is like insane. But bantam drakes sometimes need it because they're the devil.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

So that's how I deal with them. If you can, just if you're gonna keep Drakes, make sure you always have something set up to separate them out. Even if you just give your girls like an hour, say boys are in jail for an hour, the girls get a break, let the boys back out. Sometimes that's enough to just give the ladies a break, give them some time. And also, huge thing that I really, really think helps is having a separation inside your coop, whether it be you setting up an X-Pen, which is super low cost, just inside your coop and making the boys sleep separate, then the females that does so much because ducks don't sleep through the night. So all of those hours that the ducks are locked up in the pen, the drakes are harassing the ladies. So if you give them an overnight break, that makes a huge difference. Um, that's one of the things we were actually just doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

Breeding on land is a lot more rough for the females than breeding on water. So we always want them to be breeding on water. So that's another reason why it's better to just separate them at night.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Yeah. By the way, if you have drakes, duck mating looks horrible. If you're new to duck mating, it looks really bad. But if they're doing it in water, it's actually the safest place they could be doing it. People panic about their drakes, thinking they're drakes. Ducks can hold their breath for a long time. Everything that they're doing in there is natural. It looks terrifying. Sometimes I still freak out when they're like really committed to the bit. Yeah. And I'm like, Didi was freaking out the other day because Goosey Goo was getting freaky with pumpkin in the pond, which I don't really like when my geese mate my ducks, but it's they're all females, and it's gonna happen. They're gonna do it. Didi was like, I think we should do something. Like, Goosey Goo's really committed to drowning pumpkin, and I was like, no, it's fine, like the pumpkin will be okay. If a pumpkin's little head would pop up and it looked like help me, and I'm like, shall be alright. Like they can hold their breath for a lot longer than you expect.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:42

Also, when it comes to ponds, if you have a pond that is deeper, the female ducks can dive to get away from the male ducks. Which, if you have like a just a really shallow kiddie pool, they won't be able to do that. I have one more question that I added on here just because I thought it would be fun for us to. Answer. Dope Ducks asked, What do you think is the prettiest waterfowl?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

This is hard, but I love them all.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

I can answer this so fast because I think the prettiest waterfowl is silver wood ducks. I think they're gorgeous. And I mean wood ducks in general, with all the colors, but I'm partial to silver. Silver is one of my favorite color variations that ducks can be. And so the silver wood ducks just they just get me. They're gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

So I love wood ducks, and for the longest time I would say wood duck. I think I just have beef with wood ducks, to be honest with you, because I love I love wood ducks, but I really hate photographing them. Because they're so freaking flighty. It's like and they also are so they're like so gorgeous that they don't look real. And whenever I edit a photo of them, I feel like I'm editing like a decoy photo. And I'm like people definitely think that wood ducks are a look like AI, and I just like never like my pictures of them. However, I'm a big fan of buffal heads, their iridescent head. I love buffal heads. And I recently saw a common golden eye for the first time in my life in person, and I got to photograph it, and I was like, this duck is gorgeous. Like it there's something subtle about the golden eye, but there's also something so sleek and beautiful about their just like all black appearance, with just that yellow eye. I think they're really, really pretty. Northern pintails are also really pretty.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

That's so funny because I was also gonna say northern pintails, they just look so sleek coming to that point on their tail. Same with long-tailed ducks.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

They're all honestly all wild. That's why I always tell people because a lot of people really love ducks and they don't get into birding. And I'm like, go birding. The prettiest birds are out there. Like when you when you start to learn wild ducks in the wild species, you're gonna start to think that our domestic ducks are so boring. Because they really are compared to some of the insane colorations you get in wild waterfowl. It's so awesome. I love going and looking for them.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:59

So if you want to dive a little deeper into birding and all the different birds of the northeast, make sure you check out Emily's page, Chirps and Waffles, for all the fun bird content.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Come hang out with me on the birding side of things. It's fun over there. It's I do love it. It's like my little escape from the domestic realm, and I get to talk to the wild bird people. So I do love that page. It's super fun. We're on all platforms with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

So before we end this episode, we have some very exciting news that we've been working hard on. The Duck Ladies Podcast officially has a merch shop. I will have it linked in the show notes. But Emily, can you please show us our new merch?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

Yes, so I've been showing you some of the mugs that we have out. We have hoodies. I'm obsessed with this hoodie. It is so soft, and me and Chrissy are so excited about having specific Duck Ladies Podcast merch. And then these are some of my favorites. I think a lot of you will like, is we have this crazy duck lady design. We know that there's a lot of crazy duck ladies listening to us. And if there's crazy duck men, let us know. Let us know if we should add some crazy duck men. I don't feel like crazy duck man doesn't work as well as crazy duck dad, maybe. Let us know. Come up with a good idea, and maybe we'll have to add some stuff for the guys in here as well. Because we do have some duck dads that I'm sure are listening. We also have stickers. I've added our stickers to my my laptop here. You can see this one and this one are from our merch line. We are so excited about this. It's gonna be so fun to share some of these designs with you guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

And I love that if you guys haven't realized, our logo features Mr. Whip and Oatmeal, and I just think they're so cute. So you could you can have a little bit of Dunkin' Docks and Cheese and Quackers homestead and wear it all at once. Support both of us, which I think is so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:41

And this is a great way for us to get support for the podcast. Uh, because being a newer podcast and obviously being a smaller niche, we're gonna be looking for ways to make sure that we could keep giving this to you guys because we love doing this. We really do. We love having this resource for all of you to learn more about waterfowl. And so these are really fun ways for you guys to support us and support the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

Of course, you can also check out our individual merch lines. I'm actually wearing my brand new lucky ducky t-shirt featuring Frosty the Duck. And Emily has it is I just Emily got together. Really? Emily has some of the cutest duck merch ever. I love her merch line, and we will have all three of the merch lines linked in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:24

Thank you all so much for watching the show and hanging out with us for Waterfowl Wednesday. We are so excited to do this again next week, as long as all of our animals stay chill because we've been struggling to keep everybody chill around here. Um, if you like the show, please leave a comment and review on wherever you chose to watch or listen. It helps us out so much. Don't forget to subscribe if you're watching us over on YouTube. We did have to start a new channel, so we're trying to move everybody that started on the first channel over to there. So make sure you're following the newest and most up to date YouTube, which, if you're watching this, you're on the right one. Follow our social channels. You can find us at the Duck Ladies Podcast across all platforms. And that's all we got for this one. Bye, guys. That's my line.