Introducing Ducklings To Water & East Indie Ducks | Episode 6

Welcome to Episode 6 of the Duck Ladies Pondcast with Host Krissy from @DunkinDucks and Emily from ​@CheeseandQuackersHomestead ! In episode 6 we discuss when you should introduce ducklings to water, answer follower questions, and feature East Indie ducks as our breed of the week!

Table Of Contents: 
0:00:00 Intro
0:00:22 Homestead Updates
0:09:41 Can You Incubate Shell-less Eggs?
0:14:10 When To Introduce Ducklings To Water
0:55:18 Breed of the Week: East Indie Ducks
1:07:21 Answering Follower Questions: Introducing Ducklings To The Flock | Duckling Friendliness & Feather Growth
1:12:00 Wrap Up

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone and welcome to the Duck Ladies Podcast episode six. I'm your host, Chrissy from Dunkin' Ducks, here with Emily from Cheesa Quackers Homestead. And today we have a very exciting episode, especially for Emily, who has been waiting to talk about this topic for so long. We are gonna be talking about introducing ducklings to water, featuring the East Indie duck as our breed of the week, and answering some more questions sent in by our followers. But before we get to that, Emily, do you have any updates on your homestead this week? Yeah, we're dying over here.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

And if anybody's wondering, we're not okay. Um, we are exhausted with spraying. So, like people think that me and Didi have like an insane work ethic because of all the projects we've been doing. We don't. We just hate working in summer heat. So when we make our projects for the year, we just kill ourselves in the spring. So this week has been psycho. We started our new breeding flock, which I talked a little bit about my channel. I'm so excited about that. Me and Chrissy are definitely gonna talk about it more on here than I'm probably even going to on my main channels, just because I am not really a breeder. This will be my first experience, and I'm gonna be learning as I go. And this is very much our like learning as we go platform. I do not need a bunch of people online telling me, I you're wrong about this, because I probably am. Because I probably am, because I don't know. So that's why we'll talk about that on here. But I'm very excited. We moved the ducks that were gonna be moved over to that breeding flock over. They're so happy in there. We finished that build. One of the worst days of homesteading I have ever had was finishing that build. I'm not even kidding you. It was pouring rain, it was freezing cold. We had to get it done because Cashew had moved, so Omelette needed to get out. He was in the little separation area that day, and I felt so bad for him. So I was like, we need to get these ducks moved over. So we finished it in the pouring rain. It was absolute torture. I remember by the end of the day, we were both just soaking wet and just like staring at each other like this sucks. We got it done. And then, because I'm crazy, I decided to start redoing all of our floors with Trex decking, which seems weird, but that stuff is so rot resistant. And I got so sick of replacing floors because the duck's water rots it out that I was like, nope, all these coops are getting trexed. I do not care how much money I spend. And so I just finished the call duck cabin is now fully Trex floored. I can't ri I think you should do it, Chrissy. I genuinely like even if you just do it over top of your floor, you don't have to replace your floor.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Like sheet vinyl over my floor in my coops. So like the wood underneath it doesn't get wet. And I imagine at all. It's does anything ever chew through? I have not had that problem, but I also have hardware cloth underneath the whole coop and then I like screwed it up and around. I have broken the sheet vinyl in my pigeon coop. Like I was shoveling out their poop, and I just like took a whole chunk of it out. So if that ever happens in the duck coop, it will need to be replaced. But so far, so good because the floor doesn't get wet at all.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I tried to get DD to go with me on the sheet vinyl because I thought that too. And then he was like, no, because it's only it's only waterproof to a certain extent. Like water can still leach through. And so he was saying, like, you don't have to run to replace it now. But if it ever, I would say if you ever have an issue, go for the trucks because you know you're done. It's like nothing, it's really chew-proof for rodents. I did the hardware cloth underneath too, because I was like, I'm done replacing these floors. And then I did the trucks over top, and quite literally, that that's gonna last me for the rest of my life. And so when I when I did it, I just felt so much better because I was like, yep, this can't rot. Wood has like that pliability. So like I'm always stress testing wood because I'm worried that like weather will do something to it. The Trex has nothing. There's no flex, no anything, nothing can push through it. Trex is number one fan. But I've been going and buying the ones that are like in the junkyard pile at Lowe's, and I'm just stockpiling them until I can do all of the floors. Because I don't care if it looks like crap. Like I just want it to be in. So actually, their floor is like rainbow. I was saying it looks like we took a bunch of samples and like put them out because it it's working though. And so I'm so excited. And it keeps the bedding so much nicer because the wood holds this moisture and the trucks doesn't.

unknown 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

The trucks doesn't allow moisture to permeate, but it keeps the bedding drier because the wood always stayed like a certain level of damp in the coops. So that's why I hate it.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

I actually, when my parents were moving and I was like fully cleaning out that coop that I had my ducks in originally, um, I broke through the floor because it had rotted out. Yeah. And that is why I was like, I will never have a wooden floor, just plain wooden floor again. Because not doing that. That was not safe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah. I've tried so many things and it also when it rots out, it doesn't rot out slowly over time. It's like, I swear to God, one day it's fine, and then the next day it's like boom, throw. And so I haven't had too many issues with it actually getting to the point that it rots out, but that's because the minute that I start to feel it bowing or feel weak enough that I could pry it, I I rip the floor out. So I've replaced floors quite a few times, and I'm just, I'm done. I'm putting this trucks in. I'm gonna spend my entire bank account on it, and I don't care. Because my ducks I feel like they're so safe right now. Like I genuinely feel like that was a big stress off my back. But as far as updates, that's pretty much it. My ducklings have moved outside. Thank God I'm so happy they were getting really gross in here. Just in time for me to get some new ducklings. So I will have some new ducklings tentatively this week. Hopefully, if everything goes okay with hatching over at Metzer Farves, I did place another order because we're trying to expand that breeding flock that I'm working on because I don't love the ratio in there. It's going really well though. I haven't had any issues. That's because he's the only he's the only Drake. So like there's no competition and he's being a little angel. So I'm not like super stressed about it. However, just in case I would like there to be more females. Just in case he he might not be a bad Drake, but even if he just overpicks a lady, that's my biggest concern. So I'd like enough ducks that I can like divide out the groups if I need to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

So that's what's going on. What about you? What's to do with you? So I have a potential, very, very, very exciting project that will make the ducks incredibly happy coming up. And in order to make this happen, a lot of things have to move around. So this past weekend, Duck Dad and I spent our whole weekend basically clearing this like small section of our land that is like overgrown with weeds and dead and dying tree stumps and a whole lot of poison ivy. And we've been clearing that area because it was basically like woods, but there was nothing actually like there was no trees there because they hit but they were all just stumps. And so we're clearing the area because I need space to move things around for this secret project that I can't tell you about. Do I know? Do I know? Okay, it's that one. You guys are gonna love this. I'm still waiting on an official contract, so that's why I can't share it yet. Yeah. But even though I don't have a contract yet, I still have to be preparing for this because it can happen quickly and things need to move around. So we worked on that, and then a friend of mine um is unfortunately moving away, but she gave me her old bird aviary, so we got that set up this weekend, and I'm probably going to move some of my pigeons in there because I think my pigeon cage is it's a good size for four pigeons. It's really nice. Then I rescued another one, and now I'm like, yeah, I think I should like give them a bigger cage. Pigeons are getting an upgrade soon. And in other news, my chicks have officially moved outside because they are finally fully feathered, and Bubbles and Sugar laid their first egg of the year, which I was really hoping they weren't gonna do. I was hoping they were retired because sugar doesn't lay eggs with shells. She's never laid eggs with shells, she's a very unethically bred duck, and I just wish she didn't have to do that. I feel bad for her. But because she's always not laid eggs with shells, it's actually like not as big of a concern for her as it would be if like one of my other ducks laid an egg with no shell, if that makes sense. But I just wish they would retire.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Yeah, oatmeal is kind of like sugar in that sense. This morning I went out to go collect one of her eggs, and it was like the stupidest. Like it had like a shell, but it was super thin and it was busted open, and it was just like, and I was like, Yeah, she can't lay eggs. And I actually called Chrissy earlier this week, because Chrissy's had sugar a lot longer than I've had oatmeal. And I was like, hey, when sugar is like dying because she had just has to lay an egg, how long do you wait before you get concerned? Because oatmeal for an entire day, she literally was just standing by a pond, like straighting, just like with her like squinty eyes, like just suffering. And so I was like, is she binding or is this just her laying a normal egg because she's just bad at laying eggs? And Chrissy was like, usually I just don't worry about it for a little bit longer with sugar. And so I was like, okay, and guess what? The next day, oatmeal popped out her crappy egg.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So because sugar has never been eggbound, even though she doesn't lay eggs with shells, which is wild, first of all. But she will literally look like she's dying for like a whole day, possibly even two days, before she lays the egg. Yeah, like sugar's always unhappy, so like that's just how she is.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

I have a weird question that I've never even remotely considered. Could you incubate potentially a shellless egg? No.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Okay, and I'll tell you why, because Okay, I'm so curious. People have asked me this question a lot. So here's the sitch. If you have a shellless egg, it's going to dry out. I have kept them. And they just crumple up into a little hard ball. So now that you mentioned it, I've done that too. However, there is a woman I follow on TikTok who had done like really in-depth, very cool experiments with like hatching eggs not in a shell. So like I've seen it. Is it possible in a controlled scientific environment? Yes. But also an egg with no shell has no protection from bacteria or anything. Yeah. I think it's still different from using an egg with no shell versus cracking open an egg, taking the shell off, and putting it in like a cup to incubate.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Because she would put like something over top still, right? Yes. I think it was like a series. I think it's just sarangram. I haven't seen her in forever, but I used to watch her too. I wouldn't ever try it. Just like, yeah. If you're ever questioning whether or not to incubate something, that woman's doing it for the sake of science power to her. Yes. But if you're doing it for yourself in your backyard, if it's questionable, just don't incubate it. You know what I mean? Because I get people asking about all these weird things. I was asking that because I just wondered if it was ever possible. But like when you get, we're getting on a weird topic right now all of a sudden, but when you get like double yoke eggs, people always ask if they should incubate those. Don't. They don't have room to develop. Because you could hatch out a duck that's disabled or a chicken that's disabled if you incubate an inappropriate egg. Because sometimes the best case scenario isn't always the best case scenario.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

To be the most humane and eliminate the possibilities of hatching a duck with lifelong issues and potentially painful conditions, I really recommend only hatching eggs that look normal. Eggs are the way they are for a reason. They are that shape so that the ducklings and size have the appropriate amount of room to grow. They, if they're misshapen, like you have an oblong egg, how is the duckling going to like rotate to find the air sac or air cell and get that first bit of air to hatch? They're they're not. You have all these issues that could come from that. So really hatch eggs that look like normal eggs.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Yeah. I've thrown some smaller ones, not fairy eggs, but I've thrown some like because I have some ducks that just lay smaller eggs and they're consistent with their size. It's more for me, if I have a duck who is a small duck and she always lays small eggs, I'll incubate her eggs. Does that make sense? Because that's probably the size. That's probably the size of her offspring. Right. And sometimes that's what it is. If I do hatch them out, they're just a smaller duckling that catches up really quickly. So it's not that extreme that you can't like, yeah, Chrissy's totally right with like the shape and stuff. You definitely don't want to be hatching like anything slab-sided or anything really pointy.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

When it comes to fairy eggs, a lot of times fairy eggs don't have a yolk, so there's no possibility they're not even able to hatch. But sometimes you will get a fairy egg with a yolk. And people think that you can incubate those, but the problem is the size of the duckling is determined by the DNA of the parents. So there's not enough room for a duckling to grow and hatch out of a fairy egg. So you're basically just setting it up for failure, which isn't fair.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

So do you know that I we talked about this before, but that's one of the reasons why it's so bad to keep standard ducks with standard sized drakes with bantam hens because it drives them to lay larger eggs because they have to accommodate for the large DNA baby. Yeah. Which I th I never even thought of that.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Which I thought that was really interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that because my concern would always be a standard sized drake mating with a call-sized hen is just dangerous to begin with. Yeah. But that is interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Yeah, I learned that I think it was last year. I feel like you were the first person I texted when I read that. Because I was like, I've never even thought of this. I didn't even think it was a thing. Which I have a bantam Drake in my standard flock right now. And ever since Beans lost his ween, because like now my bantam Drake is probably being the preferred sperm of that group because it's kind of the option that they have. My eggs are smaller. Holy. Yeah. Wow. I noticed that this year. It's actually great because my eggs used to be so large that I couldn't fit them in the cartons. Solved that for me because like I'm like, oh, this is kind of nice. But isn't that weird? Great job to him. Yeah. Thank God. Before we even get started today on swimming and preening, I need you guys to understand what swimming and preening is to me as a topic. Like early and late, like what time to introduce ducklings to water? It's my Roman Empire. Like, this is the most, I don't know why. This topic sends me into such a spiral that like DD actually limits the amount of time I could spend researching this because it's ruined some of our date nights. Me and Chrissy had to not talk about it because Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

I specifically, there was like, I mean, Emily and I have had this specific conversation over the phone multiple times for hours long. But more recently, once we started the podcast, Emily would call me to talk about it. And I'd be like, Emily, you can't keep save it from the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

We can't keep having this conversation. I don't know why this like does something to my brain. Like I find it the funniest thing ever was if you guys know Savannah from Hot Mess Homestead, Chrissy had just cut me off from talking about swimming and preening because she wanted to save it for the podcast. And like not even 30 minutes later, Savannah from Hot Mess Homestead messages us about swimming and preening, an introduction to water timeline. And I was like, Savannah, you have no idea how funny this is right now because Chrissy does not let me talk about this anymore. Until you get to talk about it. Yes, finally I get to get this off my chest. So, first of all, I've talked about swimming and prening a lot on my channel. And when I say swimming and prening, I'm talking about that's the topic that I kind of title the concept of when do you introduce ducks to water? And for the longest time, I had always been under the impression that in the wild, a mama duck, and some of you actually might, I think Chrissy, we talked about the fact that we both thought this. Yeah. A mama duck gets her pren oils all over the babies, and then that's what causes wild ducklings to be able to be introduced to water earlier than incubator hatched ducklings. And then I was introduced to a research article that said that that's basically not true. However, it's not not true. That's what I've learned. Because the reality is, well, a mother duck, and this this throws off a lot of people, a mother duck does not directly preen the babies, like I think a lot of us are imagining, right? So when we picture that, when I say like a mama duck rubs her oils on the babies, you picture the mama duck taking her head and rubbing the babies down with oil. That's not what happens. The babies receive the oil from the mother via brooding. So they're the brooding directly transfers some of the oils from the mom to the baby. However, what you're gonna learn today and what I've learned throughout obsessing over this topic is that preen oil is largely irrelevant to this conversation. And it's really interesting that that's the case because it's what you hear people talk about mostly, and what I also used to talk about mostly when it comes to what makes ducks able to be in water safely.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

When do you think is the safe, safest time to introduce an incubator hatched duckling to water? Two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

I think after so I'm gonna give you guys, I'll break it down and I'm gonna give you guys why I've come to this conclusion after literally immersing myself in this topic for as long as I have. And I've gone as far as try to make people argue with me. Yeah, I've read all of these. I I made a post, if you guys remember, I was like, argue with me on this topic. Literally prove me wrong. I need you to. Two weeks is the safest bet. Uh a preen gland isn't functioning until its optimal potential, until three weeks. Early introduction might promote the gland to start firing up sooner, but however, it doesn't matter. The reason why preen oil does not matter is because the most important element of buoyancy and thermoregulation in water is the interlocking of adult structured feathers. Ducklings start to develop some adult feather structure at about three weeks of age. That's when you start to see some of those really good adult contour feathers coming in. That's gonna be especially this is so cool to me, but do you notice, ever notice that your birds feather out on their underbelly first? That's for water. That's so that they can function better and thermoregulate better in water. It's also around the same age that you're gonna start to notice that loons stop back riding. Because loons backride, because this is what confuses people, is because the mama duck takes the babies out onto water right away, right? The thing that they don't know is one, she's doing that to survive. They're not doing that because there's anything about the water other than safety and food, which we're providing safety and food in a domestic setting. So when everybody compares it to nature, it we're we're ruling out, like, honestly, in this environment, a mama duck might not even go out onto the water if you could somehow teach her that she was safe and fat. They're not gonna know that because their instincts tell them otherwise. Same thing, that's why our domestic ducks still take their birth their babies out onto the pond. But they're doing that for no reason but to survive. Additionally, down feather structure is not actually capable of being waterproof even with preen oils applied. The structure does not have that interlocking component that adult feathers do. And so, what a mama duck is doing that you're not probably realizing, is she is pulling those ducklings out of the water very instinctively and very often. So that's actually why we have such a high mortality rate in female ducks in the wild, is because the mama duck is spending so much time on land because she can't spend all that time on water because the ducklings will drown and die. And just like in our domestic settings, which is very common that duck keepers experience drowning or hypothermia-related loss from early introduction, it does happen in the wild. People think that this stuff doesn't happen in the wild. One of the leading causes of death in wild waterfowl and wild ducklings, which have a terrible survival rate, I think it's like 10 to 50%, make it to fledging. Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Which is why a lot of people, like when you use oh, well, that's how they do it in the wild, it's not really a good argument because survival rates in the wild are so low.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

It's so bad. So I'm like, yeah, a lot of it's predation, but another one, big one is hypothermia. And I think that really speaks a lot to the fact that their feather structure is not adequate against water. It's not adequate against preserving their body temperature against water, which is why waiting is so important. Now, so that's why I like the two-week mark. Because two weeks is the perfect amount of time. You know they're staying warm and dry through their most fragile days. Start doing very gradual increase of water exposure at two weeks. There's a few reasons I like two weeks. One, because one thing that you can accidentally do in an early introduction setting is you might have a weaker tuckling, or if you have shipped birds where thermoregulation is really important because they already are chilled and coming off of that and they're already behind in their hydration and nourishment. Swimming is very metabolically demanding. So the more exercise you're actually putting through those birds through, the more they're burning through resources that they're already trying to catch up on. And so that's why I like at least like that covers you for the first week. That's my reasoning behind don't do it the first week. The second week, I like the idea of not doing it because one, that downfather structure makes it so that it's it keeps them warm by air trapping, which means they're becoming chilled before we can necessarily see it with our eyes as humans, because we don't have the mama duck instinct that tells us that our babies need to come out of the water right now. And also, by the second week, you start to know the status of the ducklings that you have. You know if any are a little bit weaker, you know if any are, you know, possibly going to be failure to thrive. Honestly, any failure to thrive cases have probably gone down and died off. And so, one thing that I think is really commonly happening to a lot of people is not so much that they're introducing early, it's that they're introducing early and they don't know what birds are capable of handling that early water. So, our goal in a domestic setting, because the mama duck probably takes babies out on the pond, and the ones that are slightly compromised die from thermoregulatory issues all the time. Yeah. But in a domestic setting, our goal is to optimize our outcomes. It's not to recreate the wild, because as me and Chrissy were just talking about, the wild is a dangerous environment and they usually die. So I think that holding off for two weeks, it allows you to make a secondary mistake. It allows you, if you're a very beginner, to maybe not have a perfect brooder tent, maybe not have perfect feet. But since they're not having that additional exposure in that cooling, like being cold causes them to shiver, which you probably speak to the fact that all ducklings coming out of water are going to be shivering. Shivering burns a lot of calories because they're getting wet. And so I think that it's the safest way. Honestly, it's the way that I practice, even at this point, where I've introduced on day one, I've introduced on day whatever, I've introduced on every spectrum of the pull. And I think if I was just gonna pick a pack practice and stick to it, I would go two weeks every time because I know that I've gotten through the most fragile window. I know that the birds that I have are strong and they're ready. I know that they have some of their contour feathers starting to come in and they could probably handle a little bit of shivering and loss of nourishment. They've recovered from their shipment okay. And I think for all of those reasons, two weeks is the most solid point, and especially the most solid point to teach to beginners, because this is how I worded it to Chrissy when I was trying to pick a time. I said, if you have two groups of people, and I think you guys could probably think about this too. So if you take two people, one person has improper nutrition, a good brooder setup, but they're doing early introduction to water with cooling and warming period, then we have another person who has improper nutrition, did not introduce to water and kept their birds warm and dry, and has a good brooder setup. Who do you think is gonna have a better outcome? And it's always gonna be the person that did not introduce to water. So that's why, for that reason, that is, in my opinion, the safest practice you can take. And I think that that is the standard that we should be teaching, which actually aligns a lot with the information that Metzer Farms hands out. I think they do it for a good reason. At the end of the day, some people push really hard for early introduction to water, but there is no scientific evidence to promote the fact that there is any benefits in a domestic setting to that early of introduction to water. Granted, there's not enough research done to prove that there's pit pitfalls or not. I have never seen them, but I'm a small population. It doesn't really matter what I see and don't see. When I've raised birds with early introduction and late introduction, they're all fine. So it's like it means nothing. But we every year, every year we have ducklings drowning in domestic settings from improper early introduction to water. And so that's why I think at the end of the day, this is the safest possible practice that we could teach.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

So Emily has definitely changed my opinion on this because I have always introduced my ducklings to water early. One of my like most popular video series is every time I get a duckling, or ducklings, I should say. Um, I actually have a picture right behind me on my calendar. I introduce the ducklings for their first swim in a watermelon. Obviously, they have to be little to make that happen. And, you know, I've never had any issues. It's something that they can easily get in and out of. I fill it with warm water, etc., etc. But you bring up a great point of best practice would be to just wait two weeks. And I think that you also see a lot of mistakes when people introduce ducklings to water, which is why places like Metzer also probably recommend holding off and waiting, because this is a very sad example, but somebody that I know before I knew them had gotten pet ducks. They were having so much fun, they put them in the bathtub, and the ducklings were just loving it so much that they left them in the bathtub and left the house to go out to dinner. And when they came back, all the ducklings had drowned. In that scenario, the ducklings probably got tired and they had no way to get out of the bathtub. But they look like they're having so much fun, so of course you would just leave them there. So I think in a lot of cases, people aren't introducing correctly to water, whether it be at a day old or two weeks old. So I think that's something else we have to talk about is when you introduce ducklings to water, you need to ensure that they have a way to get out that the ducklings can figure out. Like the watermelon is small enough they can literally just hop out of it. If you have like an actual pond, they can swim right to the edge and walk out of it. But if we're talking about a bathtub or something, you need to have a way for them to be able to get out of it. Because if they get tired and waterlogged and cold, that's not gonna have a good outcome.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

So even if you're just like it happens, it happens fast. And I think that's what people don't understand. People think that it is like this slow progression. Like the reason why you hear so many stories of this happening isn't because people are idiots. You know, because people say this all the time in my comment sections on this topic. It's really easy to tell when they're tired. If you can tell because of the way that down structure works, if you're noticing that the duckling is tired and cold and wanting to get out of the water, they are already losing thermoregulatory status. And that's what I learned because of how air trapping works. So the duckling is losing condition before the duckling knows. The mama duck would pull them before that even happened. So realistically, I think for a advanced caretaker that's been doing this for a while, understands these concepts well, do your watermelon bowls. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think you should do them. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't do them. I think you're totally fine and it's so controlled, and it's realistically, is it gonna be fine? I think so. I've introduced really early too, and it's gonna be fine. But as far as like what to teach the common public is don't do it till two at least two weeks. Two weeks is even early, and I think like Chrissy was just talking about is how to introduce, which we're gonna have to also discuss because even at two weeks, it's extremely important that you're introducing gradually at that point. It's not you get to two weeks and they're all good to go because at two weeks we're still not getting. And I cannot drive this to you enough how important that interlocking structure is to waterproofing and buoyancy and temperature control for ducklings in water. The example is like ducks have or chickens have pren oil, right? All birds have pren oil. Ducks don't have magical pren oil, their pren oil is a little bit different. However, it's not doing some magic trick, and you notice that your chickens go outside and they get soaking wet in the rain, and ducks don't, and it's because of feather structure. That's what's causing that waterproofing. So everybody obsesses over the preen gland and when it's developing and when it's doing whatnot. But preen oils on ineffective structure mean nothing, which is really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Another common mistake that I see is people will introduce their ducklings to water with, say, throwing them into a kiddie pool with a hose. And even if they do have a way to get out of that kiddie pool, if the water is too cold, that is putting them at an incredibly high risk because depending on what age they are, they need to be kept at a certain temperature. So if you're throwing them into cold hose water, that's not even like maybe a slight temperature difference. Like that's a big jump from say being in your 90-degree brooder to being thrown into cold water. And that can that's bad. What what sh uh how do I say that? And that can really very quickly put your ducklings in a dangerous situation. So if you are going to introduce your ducks to water, regardless of what time it is, I recommend introducing them in a small area, like say a sink, um, a shallow dish, something shallow. Use warm water, not cold water. Ideally, you want it to be like similar temperature to your brooder, but obviously it's kind of difficult to get an exact temperature of water to come out of your sink or your hose or whatever. And make sure that they can get out of it. Because that I think will significantly reduce the chances of something going wrong, as well as waiting that two-week period.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Three to five minutes is my rule. You know? I put them in, they get three to five minutes, pull the water, they're done. I like the and the entire time during those three to five minutes, they're able to get in and out of the water. They still seem like they're having fun by the time I pull the water, but the water's getting pulled. That's my rule. Like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna risk chilling a bird. And another thing to add to what Chrissy was just saying is that make sure it's not a windy day. If you're introducing outside, that too, wind is a huge thing. Have you ever gotten out of a pool? You guys need to understand how chilling it is for a duckling to go into the water and get soaking wet like that. When I get out of a pool, I'm on my deathbed. I hate that. You know, you're running to the towel and you're trying to warm up, and that's because the water is evaporating and you're losing your body temperature and all that, and that's what the ducks are going through. So that's why it's important that immediately after you get them out, you put them straight back under heat, and you put them back into the brooder and they're there to warm up. I like to make sure that everybody's okay. So I like to watch them while they preen and dry off, make sure everybody's drying off and getting good okay, and moving back to being like eating and running around and acting like themselves, acting like a warm duck, not a cold duck, which will be huddled up together. But wind is gonna make a huge difference. So if you're introducing outside, you want to do it on a non-windy day or in a wind-blocked area, because cold, wet, and windy is a nightmare. And by the way, because somebody said this to me the other day, they said, Oh, well, the ducklings in the wild are dying of wet and cold conditions. There is no, there's nothing involving water that's not cold and wet that you're gonna do. You know, like being wet is being cold, especially when you're soaked in water the same way that we are, when we get right out of the shower. You don't feel like a toasty, warm, like that's that's awful. That's what they're going through. Remember that. So anytime you're introducing water, you're introducing some form of a risk of hypothermia. Even if it's warm outside, still happen. I mean, it's better if it's warm outside, it's better if it's in a warm environment, it's better if the water's warm. But at the end of the day, it's that chilling that can happen from being wet.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

If you think about it, even when it's like warm outside, a big lake, the water's still gonna be cold. Unless it's like yep, the peak of summer, it takes a while for water, especially larger bodies of water, to actually warm up. And another thing that I don't think people realize is that in the wild, ducks are hatching eggs at a very specific time. In our at-home incubator setting, we can hatch eggs in the middle of winter if we want. Would you throw a duckling out on an icy pond? No, but neither would a mama duck because she wouldn't be hatching her eggs during that time. Yeah, and like I like we were talking about earlier with nature.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Remember that nature is the worst option to because guess what? Birds die all the time. Clutches are lost all the time. If we were having the same loss rate in our brooder setups as Mama Duck's experience in the wild, I'd have a lot less ducks.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

You'd be doing something wrong.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Yeah, it's not the goal, and there's another argument that a lot of people make is like, oh, but isn't water like so important? Like being submersed in water, and this is like so important to their like immune systems. What what is what is what does clean water do for them? First of all, what in the hose water in your sink water is like really beneficial? Like, sure, like the ponds and the mucky water, there's all kinds of different things in it, but we're supplying we're supplying their nutrition via feed. There's nothing, I mean, other than H2O, which they're also getting it in their water, there's no difference of it absorbing via skin contact. Right. Like, I want you to, I know like that's that's a very appealing thing to say because I don't I don't know. Some people like it just feels right. I think it's just a statement of emotion. You know what I mean? Like, oh, it's doing something because they like it. Realistically, no, that doesn't make any sense. There's no there's nothing in your hose water that's like not they're not getting through their water by digesting it.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

How many ducklings are getting sick from not being exposed to dirty water at a young age? Ducks are immune to a lot of illnesses just in general. Yeah. Like, there's there's I don't think there's anything that no, I mean introducing them early to would help.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

No, it's it that I think it's I like I said, I think there's a lot of the topics when it comes to this are arguments of emotion. You naturally want to put this animal into the environment that you see it in the wild, and that makes sense, and I get why people do that, but you have to understand that first of all, us as humans are at best a bad mother duck because we don't have we don't have the instincts that they do. We don't have the our brains aren't working. I like to think mine is because I would literally throw myself under a bus for my duckling, but I'm still a bad mama duck. You have so many cues that we don't have as people. Like I said, if you're starting to notice that your birds look cold, they're already chilled, it's already past the point where a mama duck would have intervened. If you're starting to notice X, Y, and Z, the mama duck already would have been there because of the way that they're in tune. So that's why I always say when people try to compare this, like how a mother duck raises it, we're not Mama Ducks. And so we have to raise differently. So me and all did a test on ducklings where they restricted water access to about six weeks and they use nipple waterers, which I think this is different than typically, because like I don't believe in that, period. Because water is very important to feather health. And so, especially after they get to the point where they're developing those adult feathers in order to maintain them and function normally, they need more than a nipple water, period. Like that, like I think we can all speak to the fact that like when we're raising domestic ducks with like a water, if we're providing them enough water to clean their eyes, nails, and head, they're getting wet. Like it's not like the duck like it's not like I'm saying you shouldn't have your you should have your ducklings' water so restricted that they're not getting wet at all, period. I'm just saying that we need to be careful about the volume of water that we're introducing, especially at very young ages. But what me et al. The thing that's missing is did the preen gland bounce back? I would be very curious, and I think you would be curious about this too, because knowing what we know about feather structure and how in order to maintain feather structure, it's incredibly important for ducks to do something called wet preening, which is where they're wet and they're doing all that stuff where they're rubbing the oils on their feathers and preening their feathers, how important or how much did like feather damage play a role in what they saw? You know, like I'd like to see like, did a molt change this? Like after that six weeks, did they molt? And then with the reintroduction to water, did the preen gland start producing more or developing more? Um, I would imagine that since development is so critical at that point, it would be still important that they had access early, and maybe that bird would actually never have as effective of preen function as a duck that's been exposed their entire life. But this was like long-term withholding. Like, this is not the kind of withholding where it's like the first two weeks of life. This is like you're getting that duck to almost adulthood and still not introducing water and introducing such limited amounts of water that it's below the standard of care. Like this is like they're not getting enough water to dunk their heads, splash water down their backs. Like we provide in a domestic setting. So those are the limitations of the study. However, I do think it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

I would love to see it expanded on further and see more studies done on this topic. I think we would both really love to dive deeper into that.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Yeah, because I do think, like I said, there's nothing to prove that prior to two weeks there's any impairment to the development of the pre and gland if you don't introduce it early. I think that introducing early could speed it up. You want to know what I think, though. Can I be honest about something? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Because I'm I like I feel like I'm always doing like a little science experiment when it comes to what introduction changes like the waterproofing. Because you know, okay, I swear to God, some people say that they swear that when they introduce earlier, their ducklings become waterproof. Okay, important thing about air trapping is that the beating that you see occurring on a duck's back when it has down feathers is not the same kind of beating you're seeing on an adult duck. It is because of air trapping, which is a different form of insulation than the interlocking of feathers with the perennoil on top. A duck's feathers are so strong that like when they dive, they come up and they're still waterproof, right? But you'll notice a duckling, that's not the case. They'll start to soak the more they apply some level of like pressure, like water pressure to those feathers. It's not what that is, is not actually waterproofing. And so that's why it doesn't last long. You'll you could probably see that like the the beating off a duckling's back doesn't last nearly like it does on a duck. A duck could be in there doing that all day. And it's not true, it's not truly an indicator that they're not getting wet like it is in an adult duck. And so people always say to me, they always say, when I introduce early, I could see that my even my incubator hatch ducklings, they're starting to bead water off their back. And like they're waterproof, and I could see the prenua glands functioning. So I the last batch of ducklings I had, I introduced them at a day because we I was in the thick of trying to understand this topic better. I didn't notice a damn difference. They still got wet.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Yeah, I was just gonna say, when we were having this conversation, I like went back through because every batch of ducklings that I've raised, I've done that watermelon thing, and I obviously record the whole thing. So I have all of this like evidence of them beating water off their backs. And so I'd be like, but Emily, they they they don't look like they're wet. And then as I would pr progressively look through more and more photos, the ducks would in fact get wet. Yeah. Even if like sometimes it was like their back would be beating feathers, but their underbelly would be sucked when they came out of the water. Yeah. And I think that's really important to note because even though they look waterproof, they're not.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Yes, they are not. And they will not be. And I think that's something that I think everybody, there's one thing that I need to like, if I could break down a wall in this conversation, it would be the prenoil part of this conversation. I I want people to stop looking at this as a concept of when does the prenoil start kicking up or when does it start working? Because it literally does not matter. What we really want to see is contour feathers. We want to see adult feather structure so that they can utilize those prenos appropriately. Um, and that's when I think water is the safest. And that was like after all of my research, once I finally hit that point, I remember I hit the point in my research where I was asking myself, what's more important? Pren oil or feather structure? Because once I broke it down into these two components, I was like, I didn't even think really. I thought down structure could handle pren oil and do the same things. I honestly thought that pren oil is like this magic wax coating, which is what I I think a lot of people think. And then I started it all started to click to me. I was like, oh, but like other birds preen and they're not waterproof. And they still beat water off their back sometimes, but like they don't they can't do it like ducks do it. So then I started to get deep into this realm of like, oh, it's the feather structure. And so that's why I think when you start to think about it, your safety should come from starting to see that adult feather structure. That's when you should start to be like, okay, I could start introducing the water, I could just start kicking up the amount of water they're getting access to, especially as they start to feather out on their bellies. That's when you can start to be like, you know, kind of use that as your guide. Like as you start to see more adult feathers, start to ramp up the water a little bit. Let them have access to a little bit more, maybe a little bit longer, still providing that early, like that easy exit constantly. Guess what? They need that through their whole life because even as adults, they still can be in the water for too long and get waterlogged. And now that all those components that help keep them buoyant start to degrade. And so they still, you need to do that for their entire life. They have to be able to get out easily. But use the bird feathering out as your guide. And I think that if you use that method, it brings you to two weeks anyway, and then you can start doing the gradual introductions with pans, slowly ramp it up. I think usually by four weeks they're in a bathtub, and I'm like, I'm always around, but I'm maybe not like locked in on them by that point. Because once I start to see that they get their full little canoe of feathers like right on, I think it's so cool that they feather out in that way because it makes so much sense. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Right. Once they're big enough to really be like full-on splashing water out of the tub, I'll like leave them in the tub and sit in the bedroom. So like I can still hear them. That's when I'm not like in the splash zone where I'm getting soaking wet from them.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Yeah, usually I'll be like in here, like right, like I think of what's the four-week marks hits. They're in the bathroom, which is like directly next to me, and I'm cleaning out the brooder because of like my bathtub where they swim is like right next to my brood, and I'll be cleaning out the brooder and they're fine. And I don't really stress out like that something's gonna happen at that point because Right. I think honestly, one of my favorite indicators for this, this was the moment that this like the whole belly feather thing clicked for me, was when I started thinking about like other water birds. Because when I was learning about this, I was like, loons spend their entire life on water. How come their babies aren't dying? Because their babies have down structure, right? And so I was like, now that makes no sense to me now that I've been thinking about this a lot. And then I that's when I learned that loons stop back riding. They they backride. So that's why the babies do that. So because they don't they don't go onto land, that's what a mama duck does. You don't see a mama duck. Some some species, I think, do throw babies on their back, but they throw the baby on their back, and at about three weeks, when or whatever it is for a loon, when they're when their babies have full belly feathers, they're not back riding anymore. And I think that that is so cool. And so that's my game. And I was wondering. You'll probably find this interesting because I thought of this too. Why can loons stay on water all the time and not waterlog? Like, why? You know, I thought that was crazy. The reason is they have like, you know how ducks have really tight interlocking structure?

unknown 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Are you having feathers?

SPEAKER_00 44:17

This is my guess. My guess is that their feathers are incredibly dense. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Like astronomically, astronomically more dense. And also, like, so much more rigid in that like zipper aspect. I wish I had a feather right here. Do you have a feather? Shh. Yeah, I have a bag of feather. Did you show the like zipping?

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Do I have a feather? Oh, I have a feather here. I think this is probably from maple. Hopefully you can see it well enough.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

It might be hard. Go like this, go down the reverse side of the feather. So pull the feather in the opposite direction that it wants to be. Like all the barbs.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

So this is the correct feather structure looking as it should. But if I pull down like this, look how ruined it is. So that's what I think you want me to do.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yes, that is what I wanted you to do. Now take your finger and pull it back up and show how everything zips cleanly back together. Do you see that? So that is one of the core elements of what helps a duck not only utilize its prine glands appropriately, but repel water appropriately. And that's why the feather like zips back together. And it's because it's not just a little puffy stick, it's like a stick with a bunch of like velcro-y bits, and they all lock in and they create this smooth surface.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

And they're way better at like fixing a feather and getting it to perfectly lock in than I am. You can actually, if you pay attention to your ducks while they're preening, you can kind of see them do that. Like when they run their mouth through it, they like just get their feathers to like perfectly lock back in. Ask me if I can waterproof sugar's feather feathers for her, because sugar, her neck and bill are too short. She can't reach all of her feathers. So she has basically perpetual wet feather. And she's like, isn't there like an oil that like you could pour on her feathers? And I'm like, no, even if I could harvest the natural preen oil of a duck, I cannot apply it the way that a duck would.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Also, when it comes to so how kind of how we were talking about how down feather is not adequate structure and is that adult structure that's most important when it comes to being able to utilize that pren oil, it's the same thing with wet feather. So if there is structural damage to the feathers, so if like sugar, for example, isn't able to preen certain parts of her feathers and she's not able to organize them in such a way and preen them in such a way that they're getting that interlocking component and they might have some fraying. So structural damage in a feather will look like fraying. Like your ducks, if you look at your ducks after a drake mates the hen, if you look at their back, their feathers might have become all uninterlocked. And the minute you see that interlocking, you'll start to notice the feathers become wet. It doesn't necessarily mean they have wet feather, it just means that the feather structure was disbroken up and now it's temporarily a compromise in their waterproofing abilities. So just like if even if we could give sugar the pren oil to support it, if sugar's not preening effectively, she cannot utilize and use that preen oil to its function. She can't, she doesn't have the interlocking component if she's not able to preen her feathers or if she has some form of structural damage from lack of preening.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Happen to have on hand. So these are my I keep I keep organized bags of molted wing feathers. So like this is from 2024's molt. So we have a perfect example here of a Mr. Whip feather, which is perfect because he knows what he's doing. Actually, it's a little frayed on the ends, but that's because it's multi-seasonal. He grows back nice ones, so it'll be good. This is a sugar feather, and I can actually tell because sugar's feathers always look bad. They look like they're frayed. They're thinner, they're frayed. And obviously it's white, so with my ring light, you probably can't even see, but like this is this is not adequate. This great. This, it's just not, it's not and there's nothing I can do to fix that for her because I'm not a duck.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

And this is really like weird for people because when they get wet feather, they always think like, huh, how can I make it better? With structural damage, there is nothing you can do except wait for a molt. Like that is it. There is nothing you could do to waterproof this duck, it's gonna have wet feather, period. Because, like we said, that is the key ingredient to the formula of waterproofing is that feather structure. So if you have a duck with structural damage based wet feather, that is how it's going to be until it molts and gets new feathers in. Chovy, my duck and Chovy, she has like a ton of structural damage to her feathers right now. I don't know why. I think she's getting picked on, but I've never seen her get picked on, so I don't know who's picking on her. She might also just be like hormonal and fighting, but I also haven't seen her do that. It might be from Cashew, because Cashew was mean. I don't know what it's from, but she has a lot of structural damage. Ironically, she has V-shaped, you know, the V-shaped feather splitting. Yeah. That doesn't that doesn't cause the wet feather like the scratching does. Like of that kind of structural damage. So she doesn't have wet feather or anything right now. But I'm tempted to show you guys because she has some feathers that definitely look like structural damage. Maybe I'll make a video. We maybe we'll even put it up on the podcast page to show you guys the differences. I'm also hoping to get into a lab so I could look under a microscope at some different feathers and apply water and show the difference of how it's permeating between down an adult feather that's healthy and an adult feather with structural damage. I'm probably gonna try to do something on that so I could show you guys.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

It'd be really cool if you could use your upcoming batch of ducklings that are coming to like not do a fully controlled study, but if you were able to like introduce some of them to water early, wait the two weeks on the others, and prove through what you see with the microscope that there is no difference in the down feathers. I could do that.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

I could totally do that. I have no reason why I couldn't. Like I said, and I think a lot of people need to understand this. When we talk about this, like and like I was saying to Chrissy earlier, go ahead and put your ducks in their little watermelon bath. The vast majority of you are not going to see losses when it comes to introducing earlier than two weeks. The goal with everything that we put out is what is the safest practice that we can give to the general public. And so that's why I I don't care. I I'll introduce early, I'll introduce late, I'll introduce whatever. It doesn't really matter to me. And after doing all the research I did, I don't think it makes that much of a difference here nor there. I think to some people, it's gonna make a huge difference if they don't. Because if they have a few errors, like beginner mistakes that we all make, if they introduce later, the warm and dry element that they had introduced to that duck's environment might have been the point that saved their lives.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

I think you could also, I've seen videos of people where they like go to the farm store, they impulse by ducklings, and the first thing they do when they bring them home is put them in water. And that's probably because oh I did that when I first got ducks. And that's probably partially, in fact, due to the fact that people see on social media ducklings introduced to water so fast and just ducklings in water so young. And if we can change that so just the general public knows, hey, waiting until they're two weeks old is a good idea, hopefully that would stop people from just getting ducks, immediately putting them in water before they're even able to warm up after going on a drive, which could hopefully actually save lives.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Yeah, 100%. And okay, before anybody pisses me off, don't you dare come in here with your survivor's bias BS. I've never lost a duckling ever to early introduction. I could still acknowledge the pitfalls of it. I do. You know, I had no issues. I could very easily say, well, I've never lost one to that. My backyard population is way too small for it to be relevant in the conversation. It does not matter. It doesn't matter what's happened here, it doesn't matter what I've seen. Even if I do this little control study, if science proves me wrong one day, guess what? It proves me wrong. Throw me in the garbage. It doesn't matter. And that's the biggest thing I it drives me mad because we hear stories all the time of people losing ducklings, especially beginners, and it's very, very sad. And it's very hard on them because they usually are so excited and then they have this horrible loss. Right. So do not because their experience is happening just as much as yours is. So do not throw, I did it and it was fine into the conversation when it comes to this topic, because so did I, so did many people, but it also wasn't fine for a ton of people, and survivor's bias is very, very real. I think you're entitled to have an opinion that counters like what I believe on this. I think everybody's entitled to that. However, I did it and it was fine, is never enough of an opinion for me. I will just throw your opinion in the trash if that's what you have for me. Quite a few people that have a completely opposite opinion on me, on this than me, and I think you should definitely get their opinion. I think they have a lot of really interesting things to say on the topic. Um, and it's not just grounded in my like, this is my experience, this is what happened here. But they're not people that just say, I did it, it was fine, you know? Because if I I if I went by that, I would disagree with myself completely.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

I mean, like we always say, we're just two people that really love ducks, and we want to see more research research done on everything we talk about. We want things to change to be better for ducks, and we want our knowledge to expand. So things that we say today, if new research comes out tomorrow, could change our opinions. But, Emily, I know you could talk about this all day long. But I think I really do need to cut you off so we can move on to our next topic. That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

I feel like this is gonna be such a long episode, I don't even want it to be. Before you cut me off, we'll do a quick breakdown just so that everybody knows, at least where I stand. And I think we're in agreement on this after talking about it so many times on how we think the best practice is when it comes to introducing the water. So, first one to two weeks, goal is warm and dry. Just have them in their brooder environment, keep them well fed and rested. At about two weeks, start introducing in a very shallow pan with easy access for them to get out, three to five minutes only. Um, immediately after they're done with their bath and playtime in the water, put them back into their environment with the heat source. So, in their brooder, whether it be their brood plate or their heat lamp, whatever you're utilizing. As they start to get more and more feathers, you can gradually up that water amount until they're about, I would say, four to five weeks, and you're starting to notice that they're really feathered out strongly, and then they can start to have access to water freely without you feeling like you have to watch over them like a helicopter mom. I think that's optimum. I think that's the safest practice. I think that everybody can follow that cleanly without seeing massive pitfalls on either side of the spectrum. Um, and I think that's just the standard of care that I think after all this research. Checks out the cleanest with the least risk. So I think that's no ducklings that I can find have ever died from not having early access to water, but some have died from having it. And that's all I have to say out that. All right. I'm since we're gonna move on, or else I will literally keep all of you for the next four days. Like I've tortured my husband. My husband now knows way more about swimming and printing than he's ever wanted to. I kind of feel bad for him. He's like, shut up. Anyway, so we're gonna move on to breed of the week. This week we're doing an East Indie, and I'm actually so excited because I have no experience with this breed, so Chrissy's about to be teaching me all about it because I haven't done a deep dive on them.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

I am super excited to talk about East Indies because they aren't as common as other bantam ducks. And I love my East Indies for their own unique ways, but I took a lot of notes on this, so I am gonna be reading off of them because there's a lot of things that I have to say about this breed. So, East Indie ducks are known for their striking beetle green plumage. They're a bantam breed whose origin is a bit of a mystery and sometimes argued about. They were first written about in the US, and while some people believe that they were developed from mallards, other people believe, like, some people believe that they were developed from just mallards, other people believe that the black gene actually came from the American black duck, and nobody knows for sure.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

I'm not a fan of the American black duck at all, like plumage-wise. Like, so for example, if you don't know what an American black duck looks like, it looks like uh mallard. Right. It's so annoying.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

I don't know why I probably couldn't tell the difference between an American black duck and a mallard.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

You know why I hate this bird? Because it looks like it looks like a Costco mallard, is what it looks like. It looks like it looks like a a crappy mallard. I don't know why. And I hate it because whenever I'm trying to ID an American black duck, I'm always like, what the heck is that? Is that like a juvenile mallard? It look looks weird, but what's kind of interesting about that, now that you mention it, with like all of my time spent staring at American black ducks, is I they do have like an iridescence to them, kind of like the East Indie. And I cannot recall now if it has that green, because that green is very unique to the East Indie. That like continuous green throughout its body, whereas a Cayuga kind of shifts to like a purple or bluish tint, which actually, interestingly enough, that depends on the amount of sun exposure that the Kyuga has. I don't know if that applies to East Indies as well.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

It's also something that is bred for. So if you're breeding East Indies or Cayugas to the standard, you are breeding for them to have the most beetle green appearance possible.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Oh really? So the purple and blue on the Kyugas actually are desirable. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Which I think is kind of silly because if they had like purple East Indies, I would love that. And yeah, sometimes they do appear like more of a purple blue, but for the most part, like there are pictures of East Indie ducks where they just look like a fully green duck. And I'm like, that is so cool. Especially like from more exhibition lines.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Yeah, now that I've now that I'm hearing about this potential American black duck at play in this, I'm gonna have to like stare at them a little bit more to see what their iridescence looks like. Because I'm wondering if it actually has more of a green hue. I actually think the speculum on an American black duck is like very vividly purple compared to a mallard. I could be wrong. I hate that bird. I really do hate those American black ducks.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

Every time I see them, I'm like, nah, I don't like it. They're sometimes referred to as miniature cryugas because they have similar plumage, but this technically is not true as both breeds were developed separately. They were admitted into the American Poultry Association's standard of perfection in 1874, and black is the only recognized color. However, although hard to find, East Indies can come in blue. I have seen those before, and they can also come in what is sometimes referred to as silver and sometimes referred to as splash varieties. And what I find really interesting about this is that some breeders have said that the blue black splash gene doesn't work the same in East Indies as it does in other breeds. And that I find very interesting because with like call ducks, if you are breeding blues and blacks and silvers, it's you would know the outcome of what percentage of blues, blacks, and silvers you're going to produce based on the parents. But apparently it doesn't work that way with silver East Indies, and I find that very interesting. You know who would know a lot about that? Scott and Evan. Scott Nevin! I wish, I wish we could I wish we could call them right now because I guarantee you they know all about that. Hey, we're on the podcast, you're live on air.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

If you guys don't follow Scott Evan, I first of all I love them. They're amazing, and they know so much about birds. Like, I feel like a toddler that's like in their first day of science class every time I talk to them. Like, yeah, they're so smart, and like I just I love them so much because they don't make you feel dumb too. You know, like I said to Evan, I was like, I was talking to him recently when I was starting my breeding project, and I was like, I want you to know that I'm really stupid in general, but like when this conversation is at play, like when it comes to genetics, like treat me like I'm dumb. And he really does explain things. That's why I want to have him on here so bad. Yeah, and Scott, too. Both of them really explain things in a way that like it made it so simple. And I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

I so I've had the pleasure of actually meeting up with Scott and Evan like in person a couple times before. And I think what we're gonna need to do is we're gonna need to invite them on the podcast, and it's gonna have to be like a two-hour podcast special because I talk to them the same way I talk to you. We just go on and on and on and on and on, and I think that would be great. So if you guys want to see Scott and Evan on our podcast, comment below.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

We're all gonna have to set like a timer to like cut ourselves off because I think I talked to Scott and Evan for like four hours or something the other day. And I think all of us, when we start talking about birds, we could just go and go and go. Yeah. And so we're gonna have to have like the screen shut off so that it's just gonna end abruptly, so that we all stop so that we're not here all day.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

I love them. We're gonna have to like break it into two episodes. Okay, so back to East Indie ducks. As females age, they will begin to develop more and more white feathers after each molt, just like Cayuga ducks. They also lay dark gray or black eggs early in the season, but the color fades to light gray or white as the season goes on, kind of like they're running out of ink. They have primarily been bred for exhibitions, so they're not great egg layers or meat birds. East Indies are known to only lay 40 to 100 eggs per year, and some strains lay as little as 20 to 25 eggs per year. And I can say from experience, Raven really does not lay a lot of eggs. Like, she has very low egg production.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

How your experience with Raven has been? Because she's your only Indy East Indie you've ever had. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

So I actually bought a trio of East Indies. It's actually kind of funny the story how I got East Indies because I got them like seven or eight years ago, I want to say. Can't remember exactly, but I was in 4-H at the time, and I really wanted show ducks, and so I went to a poultry show and I was determined to get myself some show quality call ducks, right? Well, it turns out that like 16, 17-year-old Chrissy could not afford show quality call ducks, and so I happened to pond East Indies, and I saw one in the cage who was just looked like a perfect Oreo blizzard. She was black and white all over, and I was like, I want that duck specifically. And I had told the seller, like, I really want to have, you know, show quality ducks for my 4-H project. Um, and I even like I asked him, I was like, are East Indies, you know, recognized in the standard of perfection? He was like, Yeah, but you don't want that one. Because that one, you can't show them once they start to grow those white feathers. Um, and I was like, no, I I do want that one. That one's adorable. I want that one. And so he made me a deal. He sold me Oreo for five dollars if I bought a male and a female pair. So Oreo was actually the mother of Raven and my other East Indie Lackey. If you've been with me, following me for a very long time, you will remember Blackie. Sad story. Blackie actually drowned. That was a very odd situation. And she like gets stuck. So Blackie was a Drake, and I think he wasn't able to get out of the kiddie pool, which it was one of those like turtle kitty pools. Like he literally could have stood up in it and been above water.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

You know what probably actually happened? Is he probably had some kind of event, and then you found him and it looked like a drowning. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

I was wondering that. I was like, did he have a just stunned attack or something? Yeah, probably. So he was actually pretty young when he passed, but then I had just Raven and Oreo for a while. Right. I've talked about this before, but Oreo was my blind duck. Raven acted as her seeing eye duck. Um, and I have loved my experience with East Indies. I took Raven to the Ohio National Poultry Show. It was the only time I ever actually competed in the Ohio National Poultry Show, and she did the best out of all of my birds, even my much more expensive call ducks. And I love East Indies because they don't have the exaggerated traits of the call ducks, but they're still a bantam breed. I don't know how to explain this, but East Indies are much less, in my experience, much less dense than call ducks. Like they're, I believe, supposed to be between one and two pounds, but they almost they just feel very light. Are they kind of like the spotted? See, some of my spotteds are like bigger body bodied and heavier, and some of them are very light. Like Peaches is a thick girl. She's dense. Honey and lemon are like very similar to the Raven. They're like, I describe them as being light as a feather. So Raven definitely laid more eggs when she was younger, but I never particularly got a lot of eggs from her. And I know I've been able to track her egg-laying specifically because she's been my only duck that lays black eggs. She actually doesn't lay eggs at all anymore. Last year I got one fairy egg that I think was from Raven, but she is officially retired from egg laying. Happy for her. Good for her. And one thing I will say that I have seen other people talk about is that they do find the breed to be shy and flighty. And I can say in my experience, that is true. And Raven actually makes a very good alert duck. So, like, if they're supervised free ranging, she is always like looking to the sky, looking for predators. And she has, she's kind of like the elder, like the mom of the group who will like spot something and then yell at everyone to like take cover. And I love that about her. I love Raven.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

I love these. I'm jealous. I'm jealous. I'm gonna try to weasel my way to get some of Scott Nevada's East Indies one day. I always say that I'm gonna do it. Yeah. But if I ever if I ever get to finally meet up with them, I'm trying to get some East Indies. I also want one of their great calls because they have gorgeous call dogs. Yes. And I really, I really do want one of theirs. I'm so jealous that you have East Indies. I really do wish that. Uh that was a breed that I actually started with when it came to Bantams. I I always wonder if I would have become like an East Indie Australian spotted girl instead of a Calduck girl if I didn't meet the Calduck personality before I got Call Ducks. Because the Call Duck personality really just is unmatched. And so that's what pulls me to them now. But I love Australian spotted. I love the look of Australian spotteds and I love the look of East Indies. So I feel like I might have fallen into that category first.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

Love having all three together together because it's like I get a little bit of each different personality. Like my call ducks, I I feel like most of them don't have a lot of brain cells. So they're not really like none of them would be a good guard duck. None of them are like looking out for predators while they're supervised free-ranging. Raven, Raven was like hired for that job, and we need her. She's like an important part of that aspect of the flock, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

My flock beads are Raven because they they don't look out for anything. Luckily, I've secured them into Fort Knox so that they don't die, but that's the only reason that they're still here, I promise you. That about wraps up Breed of the Week for us. I think it was so cool to get your experience on East Indies because I honestly haven't had that many conversations. I forget that you have East Indies. I do because I'm so used to talking about like Australian Spot Eds and Caldecks and even some of the standard breeds you've kept in the past, but we've really never talked about East Indies together before. We're good to move on to a couple follower questions. We're only going to be answering a few this week because we are running long again today.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:28

As per usual, Oak Pond SC asked, How old are you ducklings when you start introducing them to the flock? And how long do you expect before they become fully integrated?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

And honestly, I kind of hate answering this question because it is so kind of have no good answer for you. I the only thing I have a good answer for is when to start introducing. Once they're fully feathered, start introducing. Once they're ready to move outside, move them in. And what you do is you put them in a separate area, put them in a separated off area where they could see the flock, but not necessarily make contact. I like to use an X pen for that. So mine are in X in an X pen right now. I actually just started introducing my baby ducks to my flock yesterday. So they'll be in there for some times. Actually, this is weird, because you know how it's mating season right now, and like usually everybody's like crazy. My adults didn't even go to see the babies. Not a career world. I was like, is everybody okay? They were all just like whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:19

I was like, all right, sick. So I was like dynamic. I think the dynamic changes a lot when you have more ducks. Because I found that like when introducing ducklings to like a smaller group, they're like all very, very determined to like save their spot in the pecking order. But now that I have a larger flock, I feel like I have a couple ducks who like it's it's a Raven. Raven is a bully when new ducks are introduced, and she puts the new babies in their place. But like some of my other ducks don't interact with them at all. So I think like your flock dynamics really make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:53

Yeah, because my ducks were like whatever, they did not care. Um so those those ducklings actually might integrate earlier than some other times where I just felt like the flock was maybe a little bit more apprehensive. It's between how long it is when they're integrated enough to be with the flock, and we could definitely turn this into an entire episode. Right. It would actually be a good episode. There's a difference between how long it takes for them to be with the flock full time in the coop overnight, no issues. I never worry about it, then like integrated for daytime, where there's like a lot of space, so they can like really easily get away. The coop overnight is like the last thing to happen. Typically, honestly, like sometimes it even takes a month. And it I do a lot of me daytime supervising and being like, okay, the adults are they seem to be getting over it. I start to see the adults looking more mixed in with the babies than before when the babies were kind of always over on one side of the pen and the adults were over on the other, or they were all kind of separated. Once I start to see that diffuse, that's the point where I start to introduce everybody to like sleeping in the same space overnight. But it takes, I would say probably honestly, a realistic expectation is like a month. If you have a Drake that's going after your ducklings, you can expect it to take five to six months because you don't want your Drake duck mating any juvenile hens. Me and Chrissy have talked about this before. We typically don't see that in our flocks, but if you are seeing it, that means guess what? No integration until they are fully reproductively mature and ready to be with the flock.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

Yeah. I think that's we'll have to, we'll have to go like dive deeper into this on a full. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

We have a that's a big topic. Stephanie asked, do ducklings like being handled less while their feathers are coming in? Are ducks are very loving until the last, I think they let's say week. Until the last week when I'm wondering if the new feathers are coming in, and that's the reason.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Say yes. It's almost similar to how when your ducks are molting, you don't want to handle them too much because those pin feathers are very sensitive. But like I haven't noticed a difference in friendliness when just like those contour belly feathers that we were talking about earlier are coming in. But when we're talking about like their wing feathers and their like larger pin feathers, it is very uncomfortable for them to be touched and poked and prodded. So in that sense, I would say yes, they would prefer to be handled less. However, I also think just in general, when you raise ducklings, they do tend to be very loving and sweet when they're super small. And then I like to say they go through their teenage phase and they're like, I'm independent, I don't want to deal with you, I'll only talk to you if you're giving me treats. That's at least been my experience. And just know that you can get them to come around again once they're done with their teenage phase.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:28

I was about to add that exact same thing. Think about it in the sense I kind of think of it like fledging, you know? So they're really attached to their mama bird, which they're viewing you as the mama bird in the beginning, and they're all over you, and then they start to fledge essentially, and they start to be like, no, I'm I'm my own duck. I don't need you. I'm gonna go do my own thing, and they don't care about you for a little bit, and they hate you, and then they start laying eggs and they love you again. I don't know why that's the pattern that I always see, but mine hate me right now. I'm going through that phase right now, and they'll they'll come back.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

So keep a lookout on our socials for our weekly do you have questions for the duck ladies post? Because we would love to answer your questions on next week's episode. But for now, I just want to share before we go that we have new merch that has been released by popular demand. As you can see, I'm wearing the Duck Ladies logo merch. Emily is wearing the crazy duck lady shirt, and we want it to be inclusive and this give the people what they want. So we now have crazy duck dude shirts. I have to get one for Didi. I know I got this for Duck Dad, and I'm gonna make him wear this the same days that I wear my crazy duck lady shirt, which can be very cheesy and matchy, but I don't care. And I also got something, I ordered something else that I think you didn't have this one, right? Well, I don't. I need to order myself one. So yeah, you got the mug and I ordered this one. So this is the insulated tumbler, and it's so I love this. If I want something insulated, this is the one for you. We will have the Duck Ladies Podcast merch as well as Cheese and Crackers merch and Dunkin' Ducks merch linked in the show notes if you would like to support our show and support our homesteads and help us be able to keep putting out free content so you guys can continue to learn more about ducks.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

Thank you guys so much for listening. It's been a blast hanging out with you today. I'm so glad I got to talk about swimming and pretty because it's on my mind every day. Let us know what you guys are really interested in hearing about next. Don't forget to leave a comment and a review on wherever you chose to watch or listen. It helps out the show so much. And I think that's all we got for this one. You have to say bye, guys. Oh no, I forgot.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:33

That's all I got for this one. Bye, guys.