Hatching Call Duck Eggs

Welcome to Episode 9 of the Duck Ladies Pondcast with Host Krissy from @DunkinDucks and Emily from ​@CheeseandQuackersHomestead ! In episode 9 we discuss hatching call duck eggs & answer questions sent in by our followers

Table Of Contents: 
00:00 Intro
Hatching Call Duck Eggs
Metzer Farms
Closing

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everyone, and welcome to the Duck Ladies Podcast episode 9. I'm your host, Chrissy from Dunkin' Ducks, here with you from Cheese and Quackers Homestead. And today we're going to be diving into a topic that you guys have been requesting a lot on our socials. So we're going to be talking about incubating call duck eggs.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yeah. Good, the bad, and the ugly. Going into this is like the perfect timing because I've had the worst year of incubated call ducks I've ever had.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

It's so-makes this bad timing because I felt like last week when we said at the end of the episode, like next week we're going to talk about incubation. I was like, yeah, this is gonna be great. We're gonna reassure people that it's not as difficult as they think and to like breathe and it'll all be okay. And then you have this terrible hatch. And now you're I feel like your vision is clouded. My vision is so clouded. So at least we have both sides now.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah, it's true. I mean, I haven't, I've only done two hatches this year. It's kind of like a skewed population. Like I had really, really great hatching experiences last year. And this year, those two incubators were running at the same time. This room could have had issues, it could have been something else that was affecting it. One of my incubators, I knew I had been telling Chrissy, I don't even know how this hatch is gonna go because my humidity, like that incubator, just wanted to be at 60%. Yeah, it's so weird. Oh, I hate that. I was like, what the heck is this? I pulled all the water out of it too, and it just it wanted to hang out high, like it just was pushing humidity. So a lot of the issues that I had, we'll talk about all of them because I'm sure that's what you guys actually honestly, it's kind of a good thing that this happened to me because I'm sure what people want to hear is how to manage the crises that calducts can throw you because they are a breed that is predisposed to some complications.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yes, especially depending on your lines and how big or small your Calducts are. So, as we get started, do you want to just talk about what your standard procedure is as far as temperature, humidity, misting, candling, lockdown? And I'll talk about what I do because I do want people to know that we do might not necessarily be what works for you when it comes to incubating any eggs. Some people have a lot of success dry hatching, some people are very specific about their humidity. I found what works best for me here in this specific room. I've tried hatching eggs in a different room, didn't work. I think the humidity levels just, you know, it's just so things can change, if that makes sense. And depending on how much sunlight they're getting and stuff. So this is just what we do. But if you have a method that works for you, great. I think if you have if you try one of our methods and it doesn't work for you, try something else.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

So I am what you would call a lazy hatcher. Like I I do not I do not treat the eggs like they are a science experiment. Like, I mean, I did this time, to be honest with you. My eggs were a science experiment, but that's that's for later's discussion. I do just the routine procedure of the first, like day one up until lockdown. I do like around 45 to 55% humidity, and then I crank it up for lockdown, and if they make it, they make it. I don't do any of the crazy like misting, the like dry hatching is something I've considered trying, and I'm actually thinking about doing more now that I've been having air cell issues, but I'm not sure. I need like a control group because the small air cells that I was seeing in my last hatch, which for those of you that don't know, when you have really, really high humidities throughout the especially the beginning portion of incubation, one thing that you could see is smaller air cells. And that's something I saw. They weren't critically small though, which is why I'm kind of like, I still don't understand why my hatch went so bad because I seem to recover it towards the end. But um, so that's one thing that has been making dry hatching kind of like I kind of want to try it, but I'm doing another group that didn't have those humidity issues, and I want to see what happens there first before I'm like, all right, I'm gonna throw a batch in and see how a dry hatch goes.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

But I think that would give more favor to allowing the air cells to be a little bit larger if smaller air cells are something that I'm seeing consistently. Yeah. Um I don't I don't do all the crazy stuff. I don't do the misting, I don't do I try to be kind of hands-off with my incubators. I don't like to open them a lot. I like to keep things the goal is stability. I just want things to be stable. It's better that your hatch is stable and slightly incorrect than it is for it to be going up and down and all over the place, which is what I feel like can happen, especially with like misting methods, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

So I am kind of the opposite. And it also depends for me. Like, if I'm hatching eggs for a friend, I can be more hands-off. And if I'm hatching eggs for myself, I'm extremely meticulous. And I like I could candle them every day, and it still wouldn't feel like enough. But I haven't had actually a difference in hatch rate in either way that I've gone. But my method, I have it all written down for um. I guarantee you, Chrissy, it was harder than me. When I incubate call duck eggs, this is my what I'll call my tried and true method that I do majority of the time. It's at the temperature to 99 and a half degrees Fahrenheit, the humidity is at 55 to 60% for the beginning of the hatch, which I know is higher than what you just said.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Wait, that is higher. Yeah. How come then okay, so if that's working for you, why did my last hatch go so bad? Because that was the only flaw was that I sat at 60.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

But I don't know. I really feel like like the room you have it in can change so much. Maybe that's just that's just my crazy theory.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

That's kind of like reassuring to me though, because I was like, you know. Like, why was it such a big deal? Anyway, I was like, why was it such a big deal if it sat at 60 very stable? Because I do think stability is extremely important. And I was like, 60 isn't even that high. Did we go over if it's possible that your hydrometer was reading incorrectly? No, because I put like 70,000 hydrometers in in each of my incubators. So the the first hatch that I had was actually at 97. I feel bad for anybody listening to this because now we're just like on a tangent about like things. But uh my first hatch that I had that went bad, and I was like, that one was really, really bad with like wrong end pips, like weird issues. Yeah. That that was reading incorrectly. That was at it was reading 99.5. That was in my nurture right 360, and it was actually at 97 degrees the entire time. Oh, and so that's why that hatch was going so bad because it was too cold and the ducklings were weak, so they weren't able to flip and turn. Because I was like, why am I seeing not like one wrong end pip, I wouldn't think of much of, but multiple was very weird. And I was like, whoa. And that was why. That's when I actually ended up putting hydrometers. So actually, after that happened, I put like I got like a big pack of hydrometers, I put them in all of my incubators. So I have like multiple check systems right now.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah. I would actually recommend to everybody to have a secondary hydrometer and thermometer within your incubator because like I have two Nurturite 360s, and I loved the first one, so that's why I ended up buying a second one. But the first one ended up the hydrometer on that thing, like doesn't work at all. So I was getting really weird numbers one time, and I was like, you know what, let me just go buy a hydrometer and I put it in there, and it was like way off, and I was like, oh, so that's not great. I don't know if you can, I don't think you can recalibrate them within the incubator. So I would really recommend getting I prefer the Govi brand, hydrometers and thermometers, because you can like connect them with Bluetooth to your phone to like see so many people were telling me about that.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

I've never used that.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Yeah, it's really cool actually. I didn't like research that myself, I just heard it from other poultry keepers that were like, I really like this brand. And I was like, okay, I'll trust what you say.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah, yeah. I heard good things about it too.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

So my only problem with putting like hydrometers and thermometers in there is that sometimes it's like hard to fit them in the smaller incubators, like the nurture when like there's the egg turner in there and like it can't stand up. Yeah, so it's like it can be annoying, but I had an issue.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

I actually sold my nurture right. I I had trust issues with nurture. Granted, I've only had one and I do firmly believe that I had a faulty machine, so I can't really formulate my opinion on nurture rights, but I was about to set it again, but the next eggs I had were from my breeding project, and I was like, I'm too scared. Like, I don't want to put them in there. And so I ended up just selling that and grabbing another chick cozy. I used chick cozy's. I had really awesome hatches with them last year. I mean, I didn't just have an awesome hatch with them, I had a very bad hatch, but like uh, like we were saying, it's probably I actually really want to try a chick cozy because you said they have a handle, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Exactly. That would make everything so much easier. It's so nice. I'm gonna have to try that.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

I really I really like them. I've had pretty good luck with them, and right now, like I have two running. And I have hydrometers in both of them, and they seem to be reading fairly consistently with like the actual top numbers. So that's always nice because I trust those incubators more in general. Whereas the nurtureite, the minute I threw the hydrometer in, it was so off. Um, it was reading 99.5 through the entire thing, but yeah, I was like, I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna feel safe trusting a nurturite again.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

So my my second Nurturite 360, though, has been working completely fine and accurate. So that's good. With the nurtureite, there's two water trays. So I always fill the first one, keep it full all the time, the smaller one, and that does keep my humidity pretty consistently at 55 to 60 percent, which is excellent. Um, and then at day 10, I start spraying the eggs with water and just like misting them every single day until lockdown. So the theory with that, I guess, is that Mama Duck, when she sits on her eggs every single day, she gets up probably only once a day to eat, drink, and take a brief swim. And she comes, she goes out, takes a swim, and then there's water on her belly, she walks back into her nest, and the eggs get a little bit of water on them. So I had read that the first time that I was hatching call duck eggs, and I had an amazing hatch, my first ever experience hatching them, so I've just continued doing it.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Wait, so you start misting at lockdown?

SPEAKER_02 10:17

No, at day 10.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

At day 10, okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yes. And then if you don't have an egg turner, this might sound a little bit nuts, but I have an egg turner, so I don't worry about it. But if you don't have an egg turner, I recommend rotating the eggs like at least three times a day, and always an odd number because if you you don't want them resting overnight on the same side, so that's why you always want to do an odd number. And then two to three days before they hatch is when they go into lockdown. I drop the temperature to 98.5, so one degree lower, and then I increase the humidity to 80%, and I do that by filling up the second water reserve and also adding a saturated sponge to bring up the humidity, and I and you also have to take the egg turner out at that point. And I really like adding the sponge, not even for the humidity benefits, but truly, the ducklings always rest their head on it after they hatch, and they look really comfy. And I really like that because newly hatched ducklings just look so rough, they look like they're dying.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

They're not ready for the world, they look like they're not ready. They look horrible. I always think they're dead, they die. Like at one point, like they get up and they're like all decrepit, and then they like flop over and I'm like, oh, it's gone, or yeah. I actually I are sort of interestingly, our processes aren't terribly different. No. You just do things as more of a strict law than me. I kind of go with the like, like if I get the humidity to where I want it without adding, because I do the sponge thing too. And if I get the humidity to where I want it without the sponge, I don't add the sponge. If I don't really like where my humidity is or I have any reason that I want it higher, I add it. Yeah. Um, I don't do the misting. You know what? You're convincing me. Maybe I'll try it. Maybe I will. Try it and see how it goes. I think I'm gonna set another incubator maybe today, and maybe I'll give it a shot and see if it improves my hatch rates this year. Because last year, and the reason that my method has been so lazy is because I know that like call ducks are a breed that's like notoriously difficult to hatch, and people talk about that all the time. But last year my hatch rates were so good that I didn't feel the need to change my process and adjust them. Yeah, if what you're doing is working, right? Keep going, like why change? And then this year is the first year that I'm like I've been I've been feeling that I need to do something to change these outcomes because I think my first hatch was a 50% hatch rate, and both of these hatches for the record. So, like, if I had had a 50% hatch rate on my first hatch this year and had it be like 50% hatched independently without me getting involved, I would have been fine with that. 50% hatch rate for Caldex isn't even honestly really an awful hatch. Like, that is actually that's a that's an acceptable situation. But one of those ducks came out on their own. The rest were me. And so that's why it was a terrible hatch. Yeah. Similar situation with my last hatch, I think I had, I think I had like a 42% hatch rate, probably less. And again, it was three hatched organically and independently, and the rest were me intervening.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Question for you, because some people do calculate these differently, when you talk about hatch rate, are you specifically talking about the number of eggs that made it to lockdown and that percentage, or the percentage of total eggs that you put in that hatched?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Good question. I'm doing it based off of fertile and developing eggs. Okay. Perfect. So not I don't do if it if an egg was infertile, and the reason that I do it that way, especially, is because I have some birds that like, say like cannoli, for example, that like I separate from the drakes or like I do stuff like that. I don't necessarily find cannoli's eggs or like throw out cannoli's eggs because sometimes they are mixed in if like the way that my flock is broken up and stuff. So cannoli is almost guaranteed to be infertile. And also, like, I always give oatmeal a shot. And that thing doesn't like anything substantial. But like I always try to get an oatmeal baby just to see if I can, because I would like to keep it. So I set weird eggs in my incubators sometimes that I know are probably not fertile. So I do it based off of what developed. So that was my what developed.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Like, yeah. I feel like the fertility rate should be based on how many eggs were fertilized when you put them in, and the hatch rate should be based on how many were fertile and hatched. Was there anything else you wanted to add about your methods before I bring up candling? They suck, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

No, I mean, I think that Chrissy has had call ducks longer than me. This is like my second year hatching call ducks. My first year was great, my second year, because I've only had my call flock. I mean, I've had ducks and incubated ducks for longer, but I've only had my call flock for I almost want to say maybe three years. So maybe this is my third year. I don't know. But I I have not been doing it for as many years that Chrissy has. So overall, I have probably not I've probably hatched more volume than you. Because I think you do smaller hatches and I do more, but I think I've had less like years of hatching than you in total. So my like when it comes to standard ducks, and if you're watching this and you're interested about hatching standard ducks, you don't need to try hard at all. Those things are coming out of the egg. They are like whipping out. I guess somebody sent me a picture of a Rowan hatch the other day, and I'm staring into their incubator and I'm like, yeah, why don't I just go hatch for my big ducks to give me some massive confidence? Because they had like 12 ducks in the little 12 egg incubator, and I'm like, must be nice, must be so nice. And so I haven't hit the point, and that's why I think my method, and this is actually why I don't teach cold duck egg incubation very much, is because my methods are still developing. And I've been very like, I add things as I see fit, you know. So last year I had no reason to add things, and so I just did everything the same way I did last year, and then now I'm like, I've been talking to Chrissy about adding 75 different things to my hatch process because I'm like traumatized from how bad these hatches went. Yeah. So I think honestly, and I think that this is a good starting point too, because I think all of us when it comes to incubation want to do the least work possible. But we want the best hatch rate. You want the best hatch rate with the least work possible. Like I think that's overall everybody's goal. My vote is try your first round, especially if you're like us and you have pet quality call decks and you're not necessarily hatching from show lines that could tend to have some of the attributes um that can lead to lower hatch rates. Hatch like you would any other duck and see what you feel. Another thing, egg topsies help you a lot, uh, learn what went wrong and stuff like that, or being a little bit more hands-on if you're starting to have issues. If when I started to have issues with my last incubation, I ended up candling way more during lockdown than I would like to.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Because I was like, I want to know why they're dying. I want to know what is going wrong because I knew all these eggs were alive going into lockdown. So something's happening in this window, and I want to see it.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

And I think you could you could figure out, because like you were saying, like the room can have value. Like if your room conditions are peak and you're you don't have to do that much to get good hatch rates throughout, don't kill yourself. You know what I mean? So, and also mama ducks don't try very hard with their eggs. If you've ever seen a mama duck with her eggs, they're not that great. They they they are not doing all of the things that we have to do. Granted, we're doing it in an environment that's artificial, and I always think there's something to be said about that. Whereas like a mama duck's body is quite literally built for her eggs and it's a system that we can't perfectly replicate. But if you get stressed, like when there's small fluctuations, um, because a lot of people worry about like if you're sleeping and your humidity drops a little bit, the mama duck gets off the nest once a day. When we incubate in the environment that we're we do we completely eliminate that part of egg incubation. So you don't have to freak out about every little drop and twist. As long as it's not prolonged, you're good. Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Also, a lot of times, like, say your power went out for like an hour, you're probably fine. Yeah, like that's probably gonna be fine. That could happen to a mama duck too. Now, like I just recently did a hatch where my power went out overnight. That did not end well. So I have my lone duckling. Well, she's not a l- or he actually, we did get the D DNA test back. Jelly Bean is a boy. So Jelly Bean was the only duckling in that batch that hatched, and then I got some friends for jelly bean from Metzer Farms. So they're all doing great, but unfortunately, because of the power outage, I only had one duckling hatch. So, but I also wanted people to know that like if you have your power go out, you don't have to give up completely because sometimes people get lucky and they still have a great hatch rate, even if you know power goes out for a short amount of time, things like that. And one thing that I really want to talk about with you today is candling eggs. I want people to candle their eggs to know what's going on, to be able to remove ones that are bad so they don't negatively affect your hatch rate. But I don't want to encourage people to overly candle eggs. However, I have to be fully honest and transparent. When I'm hatching eggs, I typically do film every single day of what candling looks like simply for educational purposes to make content with it. If I wasn't filming it for educational purposes to make content to show people this is what each day of development looks like, this is what you should be looking for, I would have no reason to do that. Typically, I can spot development at day three or day four. I would say most for most people, I would recommend opening the incubator for the first day on day four to check and see if you can see anything in there.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah, you can even hold off if you're incubating. I mean, especially if you're not doing it for educational purposes, hold off till day seven so you don't feel the need to open the incubator twice. Right. You know, if an egg is not developing by day seven, throw it in the garbage. It's not going to. If my hens are sitting on an egg. So if I have my hens brooding, I actually check fertility at day three or four. And that's because I'm gonna break her brood if these eggs aren't fertile. Right. Because I don't want, I don't want to deal with her getting further along into the brooding process and me not being able to let her finish it out. So with a hen for sure, I candle day three or four. If it's in an incubator, I wait until I sometimes if I'm nosy, I check at day three or four. But day seven, especially if you're not that you really know what this looks like in person, because the pictures do great. Actually, let me grab one. I saved this for when we did this episode because it came in my chick cozy. This is a chicken chart. Perfect. This is a chicken chart, but I mean it's really similar for doctors. Yeah. So you can see day four, it's just very minimal. Day three and four is very minimal. So, like when you're comfortable looking for veins and looking for like like even it even starts as just this tiny little red circle. When you're comfortable looking for that, this is easy. But to some people, like if you're nervous and it's your or it's your first time, waiting until day six or seven, it's unmistakable. You're gonna know what exactly what's going on. And I think that that's better than and also sometimes eggs are just like later bloomers and you get it's you might miss or accidentally toss an egg that could have potentially developed if you chuck it at day three or four. Yeah. So even if you are checking at day three or four, I wouldn't necessarily throw out eggs at that point. I would give it another day to see if something develops more clearly, especially because there's like dark shells that can make the three to four development harder to see. So that's why I think day seven's awesome for beginners. Yeah. The first candle. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

So what do you when do you do your second candle?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Whenever I feel whenever the air hits me to do it. I don't do it. I want to do it. Do you wait until lockdown or do you do one in between? So typically I do one in between. So I typically do. It I would say probably like uh I wish I had I usually write down a little tag and I have my dates on it. I feel like I do it maybe like a week after my first candle, so it's day seven, and then like the following week I do another candle, but I actually typically candle pre-lockdown, so I actually do three candles throughout my process. Yeah, so I do like it's probably it probably totals to be just about one per week. Um then lockdown.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

So you know what I mean? Yeah. So at on your second week, when we do a your follow-up candle, so we know our fertility rate because we've candled the first batch to see how many of them were developing. When you do that second batch, you're candling to look for early quitters. So ducklings that started developing and then unfortunately did not continue developing. Typically, what you'll see in the early stages is just a blood, so just one circle of blood. There's no veins. There could be a dark spot in there if they're further along, but what you'll see as they're further along is that you won't see veins until you get up to that possibly third weak candle, because the duckling is taking up so much space in the egg, it's mainly dark shadows, and you might not be able to see veins as well, even though they could be there, or if you're just like looking at the wrong angle or something. Sometimes it can be a little bit trickier to actually see them.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

But is there anything else that you look for when you're candling so oddly, one thing about call ducks because I have been candling more aggressively this year, yeah. They're not often early quitters, they quit at the very end of the process. Yeah, they they make it so like this year for I I didn't have any early quitters or anything like that or any issues, but all of my issues happened after lockdown, so it was super frustrating because they were all alive, and then that's when they all went. And I've actually found that to pretty much always be the case with my call deck egg incubation. Even last year, the eggs that I did lose died at the very end stage of the incubation process, which is super frustrating because it's like, why? You made it all the way here. Um that's pretty much what I look for. Um, is just early quitters and I'll pull those. I don't yeah, I can't think of anything I look for past that.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Yeah, and then like right before lockdown, I look to see that their air cell is expanding. So when you candle, you want to put the egg on a super bright flashlight. A lot of egg incubators come with candlers built into the incubator, so you can use those too. You want to hold the end with the air cell at the end of the flashlight so you can see well into the egg, and you'll notice that as the egg gets closer and closer to hatching, that air cell will start to expand because that is the air that your duckling is going to survive off of after they break through that internal membrane. One thing, now, see, I'm a little nuts with this, but when I'm doing like a small batch of ducklings, so say there's like, I don't know, four to six eggs in my nurture right, because it has that like clear dome top, sometimes I will position the eggs on the edges of the incubator so that I can hold a flashlight up to it while they're in lockdown and see what's going on. And I like doing that because then I can see if they have internally picked or not, which means they're progressing to that next stage. And then I get all excited and I watch the incubator like a hawk.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

I've done that too. I actually was doing that uh with my nurture right because it doesn't really work with the chick cozy because of the way the chick cozy is designed, which sucks because that was nice with the nurture right. I was actually able to do that and get in there and kind of see where they're at because you don't want to be opening the incubator at that point too much to handle. One of the things that people primarily discuss with Caldocks being such a difficult hatch, is their inability to pip and zip. That's their big like failure. And so, uh, like me and Chrissy have always talked about, and that's why she was saying she's so bad that I've been having such bad hatches, because it took me away from the fact that like both of us really had the help strong in the opinion that pet quality call ducks are typically easier to hatch because of their bill and neck proportions. Because one of the reasons that some show lines have difficulty is for those physical attributes of like the very short neck and the very short bill. And I had always found that they did a great job pipping and zipping. And so when I was having all of these losses in the second incubator I did this year, it looked like I actually candled. So I candled before lockdown, everybody was alive. At that point, the only way you can tell if they're alive is you wait for movement, and the movement is so subtle, it's really hard to see, but everybody was good. One was actually like doing the drawdown where it's like about to internally pip when I was moving into lockdown. And so I was like, okay, cool, everybody's alive. And so I put them all into lockdown, and that's when I started to have losses. So I was actually having, which this also checks out with high humidities. I was having losses after internal pip. So they would internally pip successfully, they were not externally pipping successfully. And the reason I'm like, maybe this isn't me, maybe this is just a call duck issue is because that's very typical of call ducks. That's actually the behavior that most people complain about. Yep. And so this is me and Chrissy have already discussed this because then I actually called Chrissy and I said, Hey, I think I'm gonna try that whole rescue hole thing. Yep. I think I'm gonna do some rescue holes. And I've heard of people doing this as like a religion, like a full practice that they do every single time.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Exactly. Some people put a rescue hole in every single call duck egg.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yes. And I still didn't. And after doing it one time, what I did, Chrissy, do you remember what I did? Because we were on FaceTime. Did I just start ripping through the eggs and trying to pick out ones that were internally pipped? Because it was like, I think I was at day 28, and they were still just sitting at internal pip, and I was like, I don't like it.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Yeah, because they were dying. At first, you had your phone just like so, I was just like facing the ceiling, and you're like telling me, and I'm like, no, I don't see the internal pip. And then you like moved your phone, and I was like, okay, yeah, let's let's put a rescue hole in that one. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Because I was like rushing so bad because I didn't want to be in the incubator too much because I also had external pips that I was waiting for them to hatch. So I didn't want to drop my humidity because you a hundred percent can open your incubator far too much during lockdown, and you'll shrink wrap the ducks. And and when you shrink wrap them, it's just such a nightmare to get them out. It's a whole mess. So I was trying to do it so quick, but I also wanted Chrissy there because I had never done that before. So I put, I think I put rescue holes in two eggs, and I as much as I do think that it's entirely possible that call ducks have more issues with externally pipping and zipping uh compared to other breeds. I don't believe in the concept of inserting a rescue hole in every single egg, even after doing it. And the reason for that is because I actually did it like later than people are proposing that you insert these rescue holes. I did it at day 28, which I, from my understanding, people propose that you do it with lockdown, basically. Right. So or just internal pimp.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yes. So with more show line call ducks, it does seem like they do tend to hatch at day 26. Most commonly have my ducks hatch at day 27, which I think is because they're just a little bit bigger, being that they are pet quality. So, like my lockdown day is technically a day after what you know most showbreeders probably do. But I do believe they just, you know, put a rescue hole in every egg typically at lockdown.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, and I didn't because I found that it actually caused more significant shrink wrapping on a duck that could have potentially just externally pipped slightly late. Yeah. And so the shrink wrapping, I mean, it was a trade-off, right? I'm offering you more air and I'm putting this hole in the egg that's gonna risk drying out the membrane. Well, the hole is really small, so it's not like horrendous, but shrink wrapping at any caliber is just more inconvenient because then I think it really reduces, like, you're basically committing, in my experience with the rescue hole, to a full assist. Like now that bird is going to be an assist for you because the membrane will get dried out at some degree. Yeah. And that was my issue with it. So that's why I don't like the idea of just putting them in every egg unless you plan on assisting every egg, which also seems to be the practice of the people who put the rescue holes in. It seems like they're always planning to have an assist every time. So even now, going into my next hatch, I will not be doing that. I might keep an eye on internal pips that are late and still alive and offer it then. I haven't decided yet. I don't know how I feel about it because this is like my first time doing it.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Assisting with hatch and teaching to assist with hatch is a very difficult subject because personally I'm in the boat of if it can't hatch naturally, is it destined to be on this earth? Is am I going to be doing more harm than good? Am I going to be bringing a life into this world that is only going to experience pain and suffering when I do hatch it? That's really difficult for me because there are absolutely circumstances where people have assisted ducklings to hatch out of an egg of any breed and they just needed a little help, and now they have gone on to live long, healthy lives. But there are also lots of circumstances where people will help ducklings out of an egg and potentially they weren't hatching out of that egg because they had some kind of deformity. And now you've hatched it and you've prolonged the suffering when they end up passing away within days of hatch anyway. And it's hard because you can't see what's going on inside the egg. So it's hard to make that call of should I assist, should I not? And so for me, I don't tend truly, I've only ever had to assist with hatching coconut. And that was one, a tough call for me. Two, I tried to prolong as long as possible to allow her to hatch on her own. And three, there were specific circumstances around it. So the reason I had to help coconut hatch was because she was pipped on the wrong end of the shell, which is not super common, but it can happen. And it could be caused by improper turning, but like with coconut situation, they were all all the rest of the ducklings in that batch.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

It happened to me because of low temp.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

I had it twice because of low temp. Just a weaker duckling that can't properly position. They might just pip wherever they're at.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

So I tried to give coconut as much time as possible. And I was reading like every forum and every Facebook paste post I could find of other people who had ducklings pipped on the wrong end of the shell. And a lot of the time they were like just give them extra time and they will come out on their own. I gave her extra time, I think it was somewhere between the 48 hour and the 72 hour mark after she had externally pipped. When I was like, okay, I need to, I need to get in there and do something about this. So what I had done was I took the whole incubator into the bathroom. I turned the shower on, on hot, full blast, so that the room would get hot and steamy because I was like, I could just partially assist her and maybe let her try and come out on her own. So that's what I started off doing. I, you know, went in there with tweezers and I was slowly picking away at um the shell. And then I was really hopeful that she would be able to like actually pop out on her own. So I like made the hole bigger, put her back in the incubator, and she didn't, she still didn't come out. So when we hit that 72-hour mark, I went back into the bathroom with her. I don't know why I put the shower on that time. Like the humidity didn't really matter at that point because she was going to be hatched and then put back into the incubator and then moving on to the brooder. So I ended up completely hatching her in my hands. And I will say she was definitely weaker at that point. I don't know if it was because she was trying so hard to break out of that egg or if she was just a weaker duckling in general. But coconut is now three years old. I think she's three years old. Coconut is actually the yellow duckling on the cover of my book. I was specifically hatching ducklings because I wanted ducklings for the cover photo shoot of my book. And I those are the other two that hatched just before her. And I'm glad I assisted coconut hatching because she grew up to be a happy, healthy duckling, and it was just that she pipped on the wrong end of the shell. However, this is like a little bit off topic, but like years ago, I had let one of my ducks hatch eggs. Like, this was a long time ago, like we're talking like nine years ago, probably. And she kept kicking one egg out of the nest, and I kept putting it back in, and it hatches, and she kicks it out of the nest, and I put it back in. And come to find out the duckling was born without a vent, it didn't have a way to defecate. It's so crazy that they know. I know, you know, it's like I feel guilt over that because Mama Duck knew that that egg shouldn't have hatched, and truly, I did make the situation worse by continuing to put the egg under there. Because if she had just kicked it out of the nest, it would have passed before it hatched, but instead it did hatch, and then I loved on it and I fell in love with it. I called him bean. And I mean, I hate to say it, but the duckling suffered because it was eating food and unable to defecate. And I didn't realize that at the time. You don't like hatch a duck and immediately be like, oh, let me look for a vent. Like it's I mean, unless you're vet sexing them, then I guess you would, but yeah, you know, I just, you know, thought, hey, you know, this is a really cute little duckling, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's eating, it's drinking, just so happens to not be pooping on me every time I hold it, which is great. But um, it ended up passing away, I think, two days old. And I had discovered then, like very shortly before that, that the duckling had no vent. And so that's why I'm very hesitant to assist, because I'm like, am I bringing something into the world to make it suffer? I don't want to do that, so it's tough. And I also think I don't want to teach people to assist because they can also do it wrong and say rupture a blood vessel and harm a duckling who possibly could have hatched if they hadn't tried to assist too early. So there's like a very fine balance. And it's tough.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

I used to never assist. Like I before this year, I had assisted two ducks out of the egg, and all the ducks have ever hatched. And with call ducks specifically, because of their just bad hatch rates, I feel like I'm a little bit more inclined to assist, but even then, it's not at the caliber that is taught. I don't like the idea of assisting. Going into it, if you go into the hatch with the mindset that you're gonna need to assist, you're not gonna allow your birds enough time to progress on their own. Yeah. I'm more inclined to assist if I knew something was off. Like, say like I'm having a lot of losses for two reasons. One, I kind of want to know what was going on. And if I can save a few birds along the way. So, like the last hatch, for example, this is a perfect example of it. The last hatch, I knew that they were all alive and well going into lockdown. And so then I was like, I should not be having this many losses, something's wrong. And those birds were strong, like moving strongly prior to lockdown. So, like, that's why I was assisting more. And like, I had those wrong egg pips too, and I assisted with those. Yeah. Like, if I know there's like an issue that I can see, like the wrong egg pips. Remember I FaceTimed you at one point? Because I had never FaceTimed. FaceTime me a lot. I had a wrong end pip, and I had never had one before, and I knew Chrissy had coconut. And so I called her because I was about to assist one. And I was literally about to ask her, do you did you pull coconut fully out of the egg? Remember I had the duck in my hand, and by the time you answered the FaceTime, it had shot out into my hand because a lot of the time, like, and this is why you don't there's really no circumstance ever that you need to pull the bird out of the egg. Does that make sense? And I see that a lot online, people pulling them out. You you want the because they want to trust me, because I just dealt with the freaking external yolk sack nest and some Vikes. And those birds actually pushed themselves out prematurely. It was a whole nightmare. We could do a whole podcast episode just on each of my individual assist cases because it was awful. But that was because I was having some weird, I'm having some issue with my hatches that is beyond the standard. Like something is wrong. This is like now twice, if that makes sense. So, but this one that I had that was wrong on pip, I go to call Chrissy and I'm holding the egg and I'm working on it. And then as she answers the duckling, I got a little bit. I basically, and so when you assist, especially in a case where you know that the bird is going to hatch out for themselves, you don't always just make a big hole in the egg. I actually try to zip for it. So if it seems to be having an issue zipping, I'll help you zip. Yep. And then you finish the process. It's not, I make this giant hole in the egg because that's not how they hatch. I try to recreate the environment in which they naturally hatch and I just progressed them slightly. And so that's what I was doing for the wrong egg and pip. I was basically going in a little line so that it would stay in the egg and not flop out and letting it push out when it was ready. And the minute that I started zipping for it, that thing was ready and it shot out of the egg and that it was in my hands. And I was like, never mind, I don't need help, I guess, because it just needed that little bit of help. And so, like, typically when you're assisting and it's a bird that's already externally pepped and done a bunch of like work, and especially if it's a breed like a culduck that has known issues with potentially hatching, I think you can assist and get a strong bird. I do think you can. I think a lot of them can be born out of assist and do well. I have a variety of examples right now of assisted ducks. Like, for example, the last hatch I did, I think one hatched naturally and four were assists, and they're all thriving. They're very, very healthy. Could and that that hatch, like that was a situation where those ducks had slightly less than ideal circumstances, potentially making hatch slightly more difficult. Like for a good example of a time where like shrink wrapping. Shrink wrapping is not an indicator that a duckling is having issues. It's an environmental issue. Right. In which case that duck will be otherwise fine if you correct the environment and you save the duck from that circumstance. In this incubator, I was making some decisions that I don't typically make, to be honest with you. I was making some decisions to assess birds that I typically would let die. Which sounds really harsh, but it's not I wouldn't let that it's because if if nature wasn't gonna let them be here, sometimes there's a reason for that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

But you wanted to know what was going on.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

I wanted to know what was going on. I was being a little bit of a a little bit crazy, and it was honestly to learn. Part of it was to learn. Sometimes you have to do things to learn. That was so bad. My assists were so chaotic because of the fact that I was being so proactive because I was so sick of losing all these birds. That I had an ICU incubator and I had a step-down incubator for when they graduated from intensive care, where I was here like 24-7 working on them. I would never do that typically. It was just because I needed to know what was going wrong and when they were dying, and I was like, if I'm already in here, I might as well see if I can get these birds to live. And uh, so it's interesting, and I think you'll find this interesting too. And we haven't really talked about this. One of the internal pip babies that I assisted is thriving. Completely fine duckling that would have otherwise died for no reason, other than the fact that it didn't externally pip. Yeah. And it's like, it's so healthy. Like it's it's in the brooder right now, living its best life. And then one of them I think is gonna be failure to thrive. So it's a hard bet. You know what I mean? Like it's a hard bet to decide at this point, or like when you're in the middle of assisting, what's a good call and what's a bad call. It's one of the reasons that I don't really like teaching assisting either, because I think there are a lot of people that will just try to assist everything. And you don't need you, you don't want to do that. You're gonna have a lot of very fragile birds, you're gonna have a lot of failure to thrive, you're gonna have a lot of issues when it comes to those birds.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

What I see a lot of just on people asking for help, like on Facebook groups and stuff, is situations where people try to assist too early. They'll be like, Well, it externally pipped 24 hours ago, so now I'm trying to hatch it and assist hatching it, but now it's bleeding everywhere because it hadn't absorbed its yolk yet. And I think people need to realize that it can take more than 24 hours after that initial pip before they start to zip. Pipping takes an incredible amount of energy for a duckling to do. So typically what happens is they will pip and then they will take a nap. They will go to sleep for a while, they will regain energy and they need a lot of energy to continue to zip that egg and come out. So oftentimes I'll see them like pip and then they might like put like one or two more little pecs into the or little cracks into the egg, um, like 24 hours later, and then somewhere between like 24 hours after internal pip and 48 hours after internal pip is when I typically see them actually come out.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Here's another problem with assisting and the whole like too early, too late, how do you know when to move kind of thing is this one, it's just very difficult. It's extremely difficult to know when. And like when you're actually assisting, you could be like moving the egg shell, all good, all good, and then you hit blood, and it was all fine for like half the experience, and then you're like, whoa, okay. And then you put it back and you wait. And when you're assisting, it's so hard to move on their timeline that like, like I said, like, and it it's it also it's so it's hard to move on their timeline. Additionally, you're screwing up their timeline. Like, one of the things that was happening to me is these these ducks were really late developers and they were like just really doing bad. But like, I'm following the yolk sac absorption, and I'm following that, and I'm following what the membrane's indicating to me. And this was like one of my crazier assists. Remember, I was telling you I had that one in the shrink, because shrink wrapping messes with how the membrane looks, so it's therefore harder to see the vasculature. So it harder to track it with your eyes and now you're really just going by a clock which is totally out there. So I had one that was one that I was assisting. I was zipping for it because it did not it internally pipped, never externally pipped. I want to say it was 36 hours post rescue hole or 24 to 36 hours post-rescue hole. And at that point if you have a rescue hole you kind of have to do something because it's just going to shrink wrap it. And when I opened it up that's exactly what happened it shrink wraps. But the top the half of the membrane on the bottom of the egg there was no vasculature right and so I zipped for it. And when I zipped for it it gave that duckling the strength to push out. So when I put that duckling back into my incubator it pushed itself out and I said we're good. It just did its thing whatever I go to look in the thing and there is just full vasculature in the bottom half of the egg. And I was like oh and so then I had to make it easy. I had to make it like but like for example that's super weird like that it's weird that it it like it wasn't on the timeline. Like you would think of the time like it's all receding within at once but like it was crazy that half of the egg could be so receded but then the second half was so alive. Yeah. And so I had to make it a donut nest. I had to sit here and make sure that it didn't move so it would finish absorbing the oak sac outside the body it was awful. And then that duckling is doing great. Every single duckling that I had in ICU which was chaotic because anytime you start the assists or do anything like that, you're fighting shrink wrapping. You're fighting it. It's like a battle where it's shrink wrapping and you're you're hydrating the membrane. The membrane doesn't want to stay hydrated. It keeps drying out and it's just like and then you go to move more because the shrink wrapping makes it look further along than it is and it's not actually far it's awful. And that's one of the reasons why I really really hate assisting. But um it's just it's a really hard thing to play the time game because it's it's nature and it's not going to be as clean as you want it to be. It's not going to be as perfect as you want it to be. Just thought of another tip that I completely forgot about before.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

If you can see your duckling's bill in the egg whether it's just pipped out enough that you can see it. No. If the bill is like moving a little bit almost like it's like happy because it ate something tasty it's absorbing its egg sack egg sack? Yolk sack at that time. So do not assist if it's still doing that. If it's just sitting there with its mouth closed well it's probably potentially done absorbing the yolk sack but hard to t hard to say but if it's still like moving its bill just a little bit that's because it's absorbing the yolk at that time.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

And you can also like when I was assisting this time I was able to like watch the duckling's intention the duckling isn't going to come out of the egg if it doesn't want to and so if it's not trying or like trying to push really hard leave it. Let it be yeah you know I had like I had like quite a few like quite a big period of time with the last assist I was doing where I just had eggs that were absorbing yolk sac and sitting there and my only job was just hydrating the membrane. And I just did that for like an extended period of time.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

With coconut I could tell that she wanted she wanted out of that egg so badly because she was so intense with her movements that she would rock the egg a just a little bit and she was like screaming at me every time I talked to her because she took so long to hatch that I had to take the other ducklings out of the incubator and move them to the brooder. And so then she was alone and every time I would talk to her she would just like scream chirp at me because she was like I'm trying to get out of here and I can't do it. And I was like okay I'll help you out.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

And I like so with all my assists that I just did there's one of the group that I think is going to be failure to thrive. I was actually just telling Chrissy before we kicked on the recording for this podcast I was like I don't think that bird was ever meant to get out of the egg. And it sucks like and that's why you don't want to because like I feel like crap that I did all that with that bird and I worked so hard to get it out. And I don't think it was ever meant to survive. I think it made it to the end of incubation and then I intervened and I brought it into the world and it's weak and tiny and but it's it's so tough to make that call. Yeah. I think it's just really really difficult. And I think if you trust nature to make that call for you, it's gonna save you a lot of hardship and it's gonna save the duck just like this one that I'm with right now. Actually I should probably check to see if it's on its feet. This one that I have right now for example like it's it's just sad. You know it's like yeah and if I had known that it was so strong through the assists and everything like that came out strong. Um this one I actually think is gonna die because when it pushed itself out and this is another issue with when you're assisting is like we don't pip the way a duck pips. We don't have the ability to push this way. And when they push this way they're moving the eggshell away from them. And when we go in we're going this way right and we're peeling it. And so what happened to this duckling is because of just the nature of the raggediness of the shell and the cyst and everything like that, when it pushed itself out it actually ripped its umbilical area open and it hemorrhaged and so I was sitting right there because I watched this thing hatch and so I was able to stop the hemorrhaging but like that's a significant hemorrhage when that happens that was like I was I was at a I was at my friend's bridal shower and Emily's sending me pictures of blood and I'm like I'm trying to live in the moment and not be on my phone right now and like hang out with friends and family and I'm getting blood pictures. I'm like but literally what happened was I was watching this duck hatch and I was so stoked because it was a silver and I'm saving silver for my breeding project and then I look beneath it and I just see a blood pool starting and I'm like what is happening and then I like grab it out and I like have it in my hands and I see that it's like hemorrhaging and so I'm like holding pressure which holding pressure on something like this big so you're like and so I'm like doing I'm like holding pressure I'm yelling to Didi like we're in the freaking like you know like it's a war it's a war scene in a movie and I'm like yelling to him I'm like get up here we need to control this bleeding.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

It's amazing how such a they have such a small amount of blood too. So like losing that much on a duckling was like whoa when I DNA test the ducklings I do a a blood test and so you just like clip their nail just a little bit too far back and sometimes it's like a struggle to get like three drops of blood. Yeah I feel like they have no blood. So when you sent me that picture with a lot of blood for a duckling I was like is it dead? No like description of what's happening. I'm like reading this in the bathroom of the menu like I don't know if I should get involved with this right now the little thing my text were like I was good.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

I was just showing you because I was like holy shit like that was like a substantial amount of blood loss for like and I was like that was you know it's a substantial blood volume loss when I'm sitting right there and that much came out and like it was like 10 seconds before I saw it and pulled it um that duckling's still alive the umbilical hemorrhage duckling is still kicking I don't think it's gonna make it because I do think that like even though I was right there and stopped the bleeding I mean they only have so much blood like and I it's not like I can start a blood transfusion on that bird like we gotta stop talking about blood.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Like my elbows are starting to feel weird.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

I feel like I'm getting I feel like I'm getting blood drawn right now. That's like I think setting uh when you're setting when you're doing a lot of assists or like I was just doing a lot of assists you're really setting up a lot of just complications. Like a lot of things can go wrong with assisting. Granted I mean some of these things can even happen if they hatch normally I've had birds hatch naturally that come out with the yolk sac still attached like they just pushed out and they or they were like moving faster than their body was that can all still happen. I just had a bird die post zip and I was like what the hell is wrong with you? Why would that happen? Um and it could have been that because when I actually opened that egg and peeled it out that bird on its own externally pipped zipped and pushed like started to push out of the egg and it had not finished absorbing its yolk sack. So I was like why would you do that? Like why would you do all that? So like weird things can happen independently of assisting so you still need to understand them and still be be ready for them. But it's astronomically more common to see those complications when you are assisting and you're operating on your timeline and the clock whereas when they're they're doing what their body is telling them to do. But like like anything else those those those like they can function incorrectly and be improperly triggered to do certain things like that one maybe if I had a small air cell and it was running out of air so its body was saying more air but it wasn't done with the yolk sack like that can screw up their timeline and that might have been what happened with that one.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Who knows? Yeah so I think that's all we have to talk about call duck and incubation but if you have any additional questions feel free to leave them in the comments below.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

But now it's time for a message from our sponsor Metzer Farms can I tell you guys a Metzer Farm story like a little okay so I if you guys follow my follow me on my main channels you know that I just got some geese in from Metz or farms and I got to be in their packing video. Do you know I I was so I saw that I was so excited oh my god I was like this is my dream I love when they do the packing duck videos I'm always so cute and it's like so cute.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

It's so fun to see your birds before they see you that first time when you unbox them.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Yeah and we got one of Didi's dream breathes so he was like extra excited to like get that package and so I got to be like do you want to see your baby I was so excited if you're watching this you need to make more you need to do more packing videos like we want this day daily I think they actually posted like today or yesterday and they were like comment your order number if you want us to potentially pack your order next yeah guys go pack your order every week do it. You guys need to make sure that you go comment on that and get maybe your chance at a little packing video because it's so it was so fun. Because then I got to see them and I was like yay they're on the way oh it was so wonderful. I loved it so much and then they they actually reached out to me to see if I would film when they got home. So we got to do like a full story whereas like then I got to show them because they made it to my house literally less than 16 hours in transit. They were here so fast amazing it was so great. Oh my god and I love them so much geese we got geese and they're just they're our babies like we love our little geese so much oh my god I love them so much I can't wait to play so happy it's been freaking cold outside and usually the best part about having geese is taking them out onto the grass and like playing with them in the grass and letting them graze and it's been too cold. I'm like what the heck I'm so sad.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

My three call ducklings well I technically I have four call ducklings the one that I hatched jelly bean and then I have the three from Metzer Farms right now and they are so like itching to just like run around it's currently like 50 degrees outside though I'm like I'm so sorry I can't take you outside to play in the grass. But they're I'm so energetic yeah like I feel like these are some of the most energetic ducks ducklings I've ever had like I open up the brooder and they are jumping out into my hands like they they adore me. I think it's because of Jelly Bean like jelly bean's obsessed with me so now the whole like gang is obsessed with me and it's it's amazing caught them.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

It was like that is our leader.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

You gotta going with today's topic of the day if you do not want to deal with all of the problems that can come with hatching call ducks we highly recommend getting your call ducks from Metzer Farms. Emily and I both have call ducks from them. Emily also has lots of standard breeds from them and even some geese from them and we have both always had an incredible experience with the Metzer Farms family. They are wonderful they have incredible healthy birds and they offer call ducks in I think six different colors I have their blue black and pastel and I think you have all of their colors don't you I do I have all of their colors of course I needed them all. Yeah and they also offer them just as an assortment so you could get a surprise order of call ducklings but they're just incredible and they don't I believe it says right on their website they don't they want to breed their ducks to standard as close to standard as they can but not breed them to have some of these health complications that some call ducks do have.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Yeah my call ducks from Metzer to be super healthy like they're all doing so so well. And almond is like perfect and your your pancake like they're like perfectly proportioned little ducks. They're miniature they have like all of the things that we love about call ducks but they don't come with the complications that you could sometimes see when the when those traits are bred to extreme. Yeah. And so that's one of the things I love about their birds.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

I know that personality can be part genetic and part how you raise them but my Call ducks from Metzer Farms truly do have the best personality. Like Blackberry and Frosty are by far the two friendliest ducks in my flock and they both came from Metzer Farms.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

So Peanut Peanut came from Metzer and Peanut is wife she has the best personality best personality of all time.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

So if you are interested in adding ducks of many different breeds that Metzer Farms has to offer or getting some call ducks of your own we will have Metzer Farms linked in the show notes and thank you again so much to Metzer Farms for sponsoring this video and making sure that we can keep doing these podcasts and putting out more and more episodes.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

I'm gonna use them doing the packing videos as an excuse to get more birds. I need my order featured again I loved it I'd be like GD I could get in the video I was like it's such like a it was such a fangirl moment. I was like this is so exciting. But yeah also if you're getting if you're getting ducks I feel like people always are obsessed with like picking out their colors I've been like doing assorted way more granted it's because I have colors so like I don't really care and so I just want like surprise me. But it's so much fun doing assorted options. Like it's seriously my favorite because like I like opening the box and having a surprise that's my favorite. And it also allows you the opportunity to get like the genetic mishaps. So like that's how I got my duskies was assorted. So like I got like frost yeah so that's another reason I love the assorted because like that's where they could put those if they have them in hatches is like that's your best chance of getting one like either the silvers that me and Chrissy have or the dusky that I have like I love those.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

So yeah like genetics are so crazy. Who knows what could happen? You could get yeah a really cool looking duck. So before we end this episode we are finally back to answering questions sent in from our followers and I really like this question that Meg sent in she asked what is the most underrated domestic duck breed underrated that's a good question. I have thoughts on this I have a lot of breeds that I feel like are underrated you know I actually had a feeling you were gonna say the buff duck.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Yeah mine's the buff I think the buffs are severely underrated they're really good layers and they're just a really great breed and they have they're beautiful. Like I think they're so pretty I love them. I'm gonna go with Ankonas.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

I believe anconas are on the watch list for the livestock concerns. That's a good one too and I think they're just more uncommon. I feel like if there were more breeders of them then you would see them be more popular. And I also feel like East Indies too but that kind of falls under the same boat. East indies are just hard to find I feel like if more people had access to them they would be a more popular breed.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

I almost got Chrissy knows this I almost grabbed myself some East Indies this year but I was like nah there's like I just have too much going on I just was like maybe next year. Yeah someday. But I wanted them. Yeah someday hopefully but I think buffs are awesome. I really think that if you're looking for a breed that's really just a great multi-purpose breed you'd be very happy if you added some buffs and I don't really see a lot of people get them. I've seen more people get them this year than I've ever seen which is cool. Well that's good. Somebody messaged me and if you're this person and you're watching I loved your order they messaged me their exact order list this year. They were like this is what I'm getting from Messer Do you have anything to add and I was like no you did perfect. And the only thing that I was checking to make sure they had was buff ducks. So cool. That's why I think that's the only break because the rest of the ones I feel like they do get the credit they deserve. So I'm like Yeah. All right my turn to pick. We're actually picking these in real time guys so this is very exciting. I want to ask you this question because I actually think we have a different opinion. Gabby Moore asked at what age is it safe to introduce treat varieties to call ducklings also what types of treats do you suggest at various ages?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

So starting out I do not give my ducks treats at all until they have been able to have grit because they aren't able to digest treats as well until they have grit in their system. I have introduced treats pretty young like probably at a week old but very specific treats like I'm talking very tiny pieces of cucumber chopped up not mealworms which are gonna throw off your protein ratios but like cucumber has like water in it. It's like 90% water. So it's like they think it's this great thing that they love and then they're willing to like acclimate and become friendlier with you because you're hand feeding them treats but really it's just like you're hydrating them. And once they're out with the adult flock they can kind of just eat what the adult flock eats. If the adult flock lets them because usually they're uh they go a little crazy for treats out there and they're not really too keen on letting the new guys in.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

You just made me think because I have juveniles that are integrating into my standard flock and I gave everybody peas yesterday and I honestly did not usually I watch to see if the juveniles actually take interest and I don't remember now if they actually got any. But my juveniles are now pretty like regularly integrated so maybe they were in there in the mix and I didn't even notice because I wasn't paying close attention. So what what's your rule of thumb for that? They don't get them until six weeks I'm evil I'm evil because I don't I just don't I don't trust because you know how when you give ducks traits you kind of like just give them yep I don't trust the strongest of the group to not eat the most in and then maybe fill up on that and then throw off their ratios of nutrition.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:07

And then they don't know the treats are thing no I don't feel the need to offer that definitely does not make you a bad duck mom. When I really wanted to like test to see like how friendly can I make ducks and I also wanted to see how smart ducks could be when I got blueberry blackberry and pancake from Metzer Farms. And so that's what I did like really heavy on the cucumbers because we were training them to ring a bell tap a xylophone go up and down an A-frame and the treats were huge motivators for that. And blackberry still or not blackberry blueberry will still ring a bell to get a treat and I think that in order to make that happen I had to start it at a young age. Yeah I don't think I could train any of my ducks now because they're just too distracted by life. Yeah I've just always done it that way. I wouldn't do like honestly I really like the cucumbers because I know that they're just like mostly water whereas like bug protein treats even like peas like it can just be a lot and throw off their nutritional balance.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

Peas are actually really high in protein a lot of people don't realize that but peas are great they're like a very strong protein vegetable or whatever the heck a pea is another thing that people don't realize about peas is yes peas have niacin but they would have to eat so much peas to respect their niacin levels. Yeah do not count on peas as your niacin source like a lot of people will be like I'm worried about niacin levels so I'm giving them tons of peas. That's not that's not how you fix that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:41

You need to that's exactly how you throw off their protein levels. Yes. Especially as ducklings. So another question for you I think you'll know the answer to this Carolina, this is such a sweet comment she says podcast I listen to you guys every week in my tractor while working on my fields here in Sweden and I love what you're doing. So I have a question about color genetics. I have two white call ducks but can their offspring be other colors than white is the white gene dominant I would be so happy if you could dive a bit deeper into the color genetics of the ducks which we would love to dive way deeper into color genetics but we're gonna have to bring on a friend of ours like Scott and Evans who we need somebody started with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

I'm getting into genetics for the first time this year. So they have a white so it depends on your white like where is your it's it depends on a lot of things because your white can have a lot of hidden colors behind that. So it's it's so hard to answer without knowing the history of your like you could get grays grays would be something that I would expect if you're you know that's something that could definitely be hidden like in many colors right is the unexpected grays.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:46

If your ducks have come from someone who is breeding generation after generation after generation of only white ducks yeah you're probably going to hatch white called ducks but if you your ducklings came from someone who has a mix flop like Emily or I, two white ducks does not guarantee white ducklings because the white can mask other things. Yes and they can have some cool hidden genes in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Like for example when I started my white breeding project the thing I care about the most is color. So to start my white breeding project I ordered birds from Metzer because they've already done layers of generations of work. So I just I can pretty much promise you that I'm gonna get white birds out of that breeding pen. And then I can refine it from there. Whereas with my silver breeding project I'm starting that from scratch and that's a lot harder because when I put two silvers together they're technically I mean silver's a little bit easier than white as far as what silver's masking. Like the genetics are just fairly cleaner. So I'm pretty confident that I'm gonna be able to get to the point that I want to with color in that breeding project quicker. But white really isn't as like the blue black splash genetics are very simple to follow. Like that's that's really easy whereas white doesn't really fall into a category like that where it's just kind of like Like it's the dilution gene basically works as just like a lightning. And so like you could like backtrack where this bird came from, especially when they're coming out of my own flock, where you can't really do that with white. So we're gonna have to bring on a guest to dive way deeper into genetics on a future episode. We definitely have to bring on a guest because the guest that we would bring, which is hopefully Scott and Evan from Two Guys and Some Land, is exactly who I text when I have any genetics question. I'm like, yo, should I do this? I don't I don't know. So yeah, I'm not I'm barely scratching the surface on genetics. Trust me, you don't want to learn from me what can happen. But thank you for your super sweet comment. That was so nice. Yes, thank you. I'm sorry that I'm not gonna genetics, but we'll find somebody that is. Or Matzer would know. Matzer would know a ton about it too, because that's what they do. Yeah. So yeah. All right. One more. I'm gonna answer this so quickly just because I saw Sydney's comment and I can answer it fast. Can a watch goose be in the same coop enclosure as your ducks? Sydney, yes, they can be, but you need more than one goose. I know you just I don't know if you just said goose singular in the comment, but like you, if you get a goose for your duck flock, you need to get geese. You need to get plural geese. The geese are still considered a separate animal, they still need to have companions the same way ducks do. They're a different species, so even though they're very similar, they don't speak the same language. So I just wanted to answer that for you real quick. So yeah, get your geese, they can live with your ducks, but make sure you also get more than one goose. All right. Let me pick one for you. Abby Moore asked about the deep litter method. Me and Chrissy have the same feelings about the deep litter method.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

I am not a fan of the deep litter method, but we have to do it in the winter where we live because we have no other option. So in the winter, I I think I speak for both of us. We put our litter down, we can't clean it, we just keep adding more so it's fresh and clean on the top. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:50

Yeah, realistically, the moisture level at waterfowl bring really destroys the deep litter method from actually being super effective. Yeah. So for waterfowl, it's more of just the lazy method. It's not so much a deep litter method. It's just it's just a survival of the winter. One thing that both me and Chrissy do, I think, with our deep litter in the winter for waterfowl, is we have a dry section of the coop and a wet section, and we keep the wet section, we actually clean out the wet section, and the dry section we can accomplish some form of deep litter with, but don't expect your deep litter process to be as wonderful and magical as it is with chickens when it comes to ducks.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:24

As soon as there is a day that's like above 32 degrees, I am out there with a shovel cleaning the wet section. Because I want to clean that as often as I possibly can because yeah, they just splash water and then it freezes, and then you can't clean it because it's frozen. It's a whole thing. Ducks are mixed. Ducks suck. I mean, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

They're my favorite. But this this aspect of ducks very much is difficult and it's very frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

So keep an eye out on our socials for our next post when we ask if you have any questions, because we just might answer them on the next episode of the Duck Ladies podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:01

Actually, ask a lot of questions because we're planning on doing an episode where we just answer follower questions just so that we can keep up and do all these. Plus, I think it would make for a really fun podcast because me and Chrissy, it's spring around here. We have a lot going on. We are not organized, both of us have like a million things going on at once. So it's gonna be really fun to not have to plan, just sit down, kind of like we did today. We didn't really plan this episode out, we just sat down, had a conversation. Um, and we're gonna do that, but answering all of you guys' questions. So hammer in those questions. We need them.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

Before we go, I just want to remind everybody that we do have our own Duck Ladies Podcast merch line. I'm wearing the shirt with our logo on it. And we also have I have two different styles of our mugs. I have the little coffee mug and the travel mug. I love them both. I have a mug too. We also both have our own merch lines, so we will have all three merch lines linked in the show notes below. And purchasing our merch really helps us keep this podcast going, and we appreciate it so much when you guys support us through that.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

And if you loved the topic of call duck hatching, I will be hatching throughout the season. I'm sure I'm gonna be wanting to chat with Chrissy again more about call duck hatching as it happens and things I learned along the way. And so we will talk about it more, don't worry. I know it's something that people really want to hear about. So we'll probably talk about hatching more on this channel than we do on our main channels, just because the main channels, it's a it's a lot. Everybody wants you to keep all the birds, and you're like, I can't.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

Oh, thank you guys so much for watching episode nine of the Duck Ladies Podcast. Make sure you're following along with our socials to stay up to date on when the next episode comes out.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:30

I would like to add that I did not have any chaos to add to the to this episode. My my host is finally giving me a break, so everything's been chill around here. So I would like to add that. I would like to note that I am no longer the problems. Everyone, clap for Emily. Woo! My birds are alive and well. But that is all we got for this one. Bye, guys.