010 Telling Donors You Got It Wrong | HOPE International President & CEO Peter Greer

Everything was up and to the right. Hope International had just received an award for innovating in a post-conflict setting. Peter Greer the biggest champion of more.

Then the cracks started to show.

Peter had to stop, own the mistake, and go tell the donors who had believed what he told them.

Peter is one of the most intentional leaders I've interviewed about building a personal network of advisors. He also names something I think every CEO should wrestle with: not whether you and your organization has cracks, but where they are and who can see them.

Peter also shares a family decision that he nearly got wrong, and what it revealed about what most nonprofit leaders are carrying.

Peter Greer is President and CEO of Hope International, an international development organization operating in about 30 countries, with $41 million in revenue in 2024.

Transcript

Introduction to Hope International and Leadership Journey

Adam Jeske 0:04

Nonprofit CEOs are constantly making consequential decisions, often under pressure or in isolation. I'm Adam Jeski, the Nonprofit CEO Advisor, and this is the Nonprofit CEO Podcast, where CEOs talk about the decisions they carry. Today, our guest is Peter Greer, president and CEO of Hope International. Peter, welcome to the show. Thanks, Adam. Why don't we start by you sharing with the listeners who might not know about Hope International who you are and what you do?

Peter Greer 0:33

Yeah, so we're an organization that's focused on microenterprise development through savings groups and microfinance institutions and small and medium enterprise trying to provide investment capital, coaching, training, and discipleship to entrepreneurs around the world. So that's our mission. That's our model based in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, but serving in about 30 nations around the world.

Adam Jeske 0:54

And you've been doing this a long time. How long have you been leading at Hope? 21 years. So I imagine you have a large reservoir of stories. Tell us about a consequential decision you've made during your leadership tenure there. I think that's that's such a nice way of saying it, Adam.

Peter Greer 1:15

You've been around a long time and you've probably made a bunch of mistakes. Uh all of that is indeed true. And uh yeah, I mean, some of the some of the, when you look back at some of the pivot points, I think one of the most uh consequential ones was when we were growing really fast in one of the uh places where we were serving, and we actually uh received an award um in the way that we were innovating to serve in a post-conflict setting. And uh all of our numbers, all of our charts looked good. They were all up and to the right. And if you grow without underlying quality, all that means is you've got a bigger mess on your hands. And in this particular case, that's exactly what happened. There was not underlying quality, there was not underlying systems to support the growth. It was one of the most incredibly challenging times. And I think in my mind, that's where we reprioritized what we're all about as an organization. And I think it is so easy not to even make an explicit decision, but it's so easy to pursue growth at the expense of health, at the expense of impact. And so we in that moment really reprioritized who are we as an organization and said it's all about the mission first. It's all about excellence in how we implement, and then and only then will we earn the right to grow when those first two things are happening. Are we achieving our mission? Are we operating with excellence? And then let's think about growth. And uh before that time, I think we had the order of operation switched. Let's grow, let's grow, let's grow. And then we'll figure out quality and missional impact and all those other components. And I think that was the wrong decision uh for us then. And I know it's the wrong decision for us now as well. And the great irony is then when you focus on mission, when you focus on organizational excellence, growth does tend to happen, maybe not as quickly, but it has been a wonderful journey. And I think that's one of the most consequential decisions of saying growth is not our ultimate goal.

Adam Jeske 3:17

Give me a sense of the growth trajectory at that season. When was that in time? Give us a little bit more picture of when this was and the and the growth trajectory.

Peter Greer 3:27

Yeah, so that would have been around 2008-ish uh time period. And again, we just we built this whole campaign. We're raising money about this particular campaign, about this particular place and expansion plans, and uh, we were putting more and more capital to work, uh, but just without the the right uh systems and support and and staffing. And did the cracks start to show? Yeah, you know, hindsight is a wonderful gift, isn't it? Where you in retrospect you can see that. But I think the reality is at the time we weren't paying attention. We weren't seeing the cracks. I think the cracks were there. I just don't think we saw them. And so I think your point is very well taken. Uh, what have we done from that point to identify cracks? And uh a couple things. One is uh I'm a huge fan of Ethics Point or whatever your system is to make it as easy as possible to remove friction for people to identify when that they see something that is going off the rails or seeing something that is not happening. And that has been a wonderful tool that we have implemented. Uh, we dramatically increased our uh level of compliance and function and standardization. I think at that time we basically had every country was doing their own thing, and uh we've done much more of standardization of some of the core uh procedures, some of the core models and methodology, invested in better systems, our core banking uh software. We were underinvesting in some of those systems. So yeah, systems matter, accountability matters, uh, the ability for people to spot any level of the organization. Hey, I don't know if we're heading in the right direction. Those have been some of the things that we've implemented and I know have saved us from future times of uh yeah, going off the rails and much more earlier spotting, much more early uh able to shift to identify and address uh challenges that we have. Yeah. So that's a question. The question is not do we have cracks? The question is do we know about them? Can we see them? Are we inspecting the bridge often enough to identify those cracks before the collapse?

Adam Jeske 5:38

And as you considered, uh,

Identifying and Addressing Organizational Challenges

Adam Jeske 5:40

go back to that point, the mental landscape, the emotional landscape, the social landscape of that decision season. Was there friction or resistance, uh, real or anticipated, real or imagined, uh, to pumping the brakes a little bit and looking at systems?

Peter Greer 6:01

Uh internally, no, because we knew we needed it. Internally, this was not like an aha. This was this was widespread. Our model isn't working. We need to radically rethink who we are and what we do. The other side of it though, and what I was uh also considering is we had some generous supporters that had given to this initiative and to go to them and say, this isn't working. Um, and the growth that we had told you about, it's not gonna happen. In fact, we're actually gonna be shutting some places that we had expanded into. And I thought that was gonna be the end of these relationships. And the exact opposite happened. Many of them, I remember one conversation in particular. Um, his name was Terry, and he said, you know, in my career, I've learned the real work is in the climb. And this is going to be an important moment. So, what have you learned? What are you gonna do differently? And how can we continue to support you? And I almost cried in that moment of just that feeling of feeling like I had failed, feeling like we had going in the wrong direction, and then to be met with just kindness and empathy and understanding that this is hard work. And what do we learn? What are we gonna do? And uh, how can how can they continue to support? That was that was a moment I will not forget.

Adam Jeske 7:24

How long did you have to sit with this decision before you actually made it and started taking tangible steps to to make the move?

Peter Greer 7:36

Oh, I mean, it w it was it was immediate, Adam. Like we recognized we we've got problems. So in in some ways, that was the benefit that it was not like a long drawn-out. It was like this isn't working. It was uh the ability to immediately course correct was maybe the silver lining. And uh again, you asked about defining moments and and significant decisions. Um, that's why this was such a defining moment because that changed everything from that point onward, that point to today, what we measure, what we celebrate, how we build, all of those things are radically redefined, um, reimagined as a result of that experience.

Adam Jeske 8:18

One of the things that I've noticed in my conversations with leaders throughout the sector is that often the CEO role is pretty isolated. There's some things you can talk about with your board, some things that you can talk about with major donors or peers in the for-profit sector or the public sector, uh, some things you can talk about with your executive team, but then ultimately things sort of boil down to the things that you hold as the principal leader alone. You you have to make some decision. Along the way, in this decision, it sounds as if there were a good deal of internal conversations. Did you also feel free to comment on that? But did you also have outside perspective coming to bear on it from other leaders that you knew in other organizations, people who had gone before with something similar?

Peter Greer 9:06

Yeah, I like um Henry Kasner with the faith-driven entrepreneur has this line. He says, uh, leadership is lonely, but it doesn't have to be. And I really resonate with that. I think that uh oftentimes it is this. Um there are some unique aspects of leadership. And it can, it often does feel lonely, but it doesn't have to be. And I remember reading a book and radically redesigning some of the things of my own life and relationships, and it talked about this idea of constellation mentoring and being much more intentional about our relationships. And my guess is most leaders, we're really intentional about our goals and about our plans and about what we want to do and what we want to accomplish and what we want to read and what we all those things, but we're not often as intentional about the people in our life. And so this idea of constellation mentoring is basically saying look at the areas that you want to learn and grow. And don't ask for this general term of mentoring. Identify the issue and the person and ask with specificity. So for me, it was a 222 ask. Would you guide me two times a year for two hours each for the next two years? And not in some general, but one individual. He had grown an organization and I wanted to learn how he had done that. So would you teach me from your experience what it looks like to build a world-class organization? And I didn't realize this in my role, but I suddenly realized, you know, fundraising is part of my role. I had no idea. I wasn't in the job description. I thought I hired someone for that. Uh, I'd never done that. And so who's someone who's learned how to do that effectively? And would you mentor me in what it looks like? You've done it with another organization. And then to look at your core four. Who are those friends that you're going to do life with? That there's nothing out of bounds, those individuals who love you enough to be totally unimpressed with any accomplishments that you have, and to be on the journey with you for life. Um, and then those people that you're pouring into. And then for me also, who are the people that are on a prayer journey as well? And that core group of friends that uh a safe place to say, would you uh join me uh in praying for this particular issue or, you know, whatever personal challenges is uh of that season. So again, all that to say is like the intentionality of relationship has been so incredibly helpful. And then in addition to that, I'm a huge fan of peer groups, those opportunities to be with other leaders in similar spaces and places. And I know you have a similar heart for this, Adam, but getting individuals together and uh basically saying, what are the challenges? And finding solidarity, finding friendship, finding advice and counsel uh from other individuals that are in similar type roles, facing similar type decisions, being on the journey together. So I'm part of a couple peer groups, and those have also been uh wonderfully life-giving.

Adam Jeske 12:01

Yeah, unfortunately, it seems that a lot of CEOs don't have not found those quick models or have not exercised that intentionality of relationship. I find a lot of sort of desperation for that. Um, so it's good that you have that. And it does seem like that would tie into your longevity, the aforementioned longevity in the in the role in the sector, but um, but also the growth that you've managed and and sort of building a substantial organization. Going back to the the decision-making season of

Navigating Difficult Conversations and Transparency

Adam Jeske 12:35

uh that particular um field location and building for health and sort of uh being honest, uh going back to donors and uh talking as a staff team. Uh was there a part that was really tricky? Was there a part that was very difficult in that?

Peter Greer 12:55

Yeah, I mean, the tricky part is we tend to minimize weakness. We tend to not talk about failure. We love in the nonprofit space to talk about all the successes and we love to show graphs that are up and to the right. And uh, I think that what that can unintentionally do is miss out on the identification of things that aren't working, of learning from failure as one of our greatest teachers, and unfortunately can cause an organizational culture of saying it's not okay to share your challenge. So minimize, minimize. And I think that as we grow, I mean, this is something not in past tense, but in present tense, how do you create a place where you do celebrate wins, where you do have forward momentum, where you do still not be shy about talking about what's going well, and invite candid feedback in appropriate ways, um, and to have a culture where people feel safe uh to share what's not going well and to learn from that. And um, I think that's something that every organization faces. And it's difficult when you're small. It uh does not become less complex as you grow to find those ways uh to really listen well. And so that's where I feel like there's a culture piece, but then there also is a system. There also is a tool. So what are you doing to listen to all staff? Um and for us, we use Best Christian Workplace as a as a tool. We have another uh survey that we uh implement uh as well as Ethics Point and other channels that really are designed to make sure we're trying to listen well to all of our stakeholder groups, especially our global team.

Adam Jeske 14:39

As you made this decision and got honest as an organization about the uh the the way we uh we have been going is is actually needing a correction. How did that process feel for you as the leader?

Peter Greer 14:59

Oh, I mean, the first part was just I mean, I felt uh a high level of responsibility and and failure. Um and I remember one particular kind of global staff gathering, I just felt that I I needed to apologize to the team because the biggest champion of growth was me. The biggest champion of like unfortunately, grow no matter what uh was me. And it's because I believe in the mission, I believe in the need, I believe in the opportunity. And I think that I led the organization in a way uh that was directly correlated and uh directly led to some compromises in systems and didn't pay attention to the cracks. Uh so yeah, no, I felt I felt a high degree of of core responsibility. But then the question is like if we're not careful, that can paralyze us because then we're not gonna move forward again. Then we're gonna just play it safe, then we're gonna just check out, we're gonna tune out. And so I think that that that two aspects of own it, learn from it, and move on. And I think that's why that comment from Terry really struck me. It's like, what do we learn? What do we do? And how can we keep moving forward? I think that's why that was so freeing to me to hear that from someone who had invested heavily in this initiative. Um, and I think that is the right attitude because otherwise, our failures cause us to just shrink. They cause us to just go internal, they cause us not to risk again. And I think that also is a way of being sidelined and to minimize. Uh so yeah, own it, learn from it, and let's go.

Adam Jeske 16:50

Uh, move on. Peter, as you look back over your time leading at hope, what's something that you wish you had known at the start? Like if someone had given you a piece of advice.

Peter Greer 17:03

Yeah, I I think oftentimes our timelines uh influence our behavior. And what I mean is if you are feeling so much pressure to what can I do for the next board meeting, there's gonna be a ton of pressure. We got to accomplish this, we got to show this, we got to do that. And I wish someone had said, look at a longer time horizon. And that classic line of we way overestimate what can happen in the short run and way underestimate what can happen in the long term. I think there is the law of compound interest when it comes to finance. And I think there's the law of compound impact when it comes to nonprofits. And so I think like focus on health, focus on trust, focus on the programmatic design, and extend your timeline a little bit longer. And that might actually cause you to make better decisions. And it also, ironically, might allow you to last more as a leader. I wish I had been told early on when your family has a crisis, make up your mind ahead of time that you're gonna choose to be with your family, even if it means you feel like you're sacrificing something for the organization. And uh, one of the moments that I uh missed that is uh my wife was waiting for a surgery that was gonna be a big deal. It was gonna help relieve some pain. And uh the doctor called and said, We've got a new date. The date has been moved up. There's a would you like to have this? And this would have meant a couple months earlier. The problem was that that date was when I was scheduled to go on a very important trip with a very important group of people. And so my response to my wife was, Well, do we really have to move the date? Can we can we not, Adam? That was the wrong thing to say. Yeah. A hundred percent. That sent a very clear message, and it was not the right message. And so I wish that was the other thing that someone had said. Uh, make up your mind ahead of time of those decisions when you feel that tension that inevitably we all feel. Inevitably. And in that particular moment, I ended up not going on that trip. So I ended up making the right decision. But after already causing the harm, it was the like a lose-lose, someone else went on that. And guess what happened? That trip went just fine. I think we have to actually get over the myth of our own importance that actually builds a healthier organization and allows us to make better decisions in terms of re-prioritizing what really matters. So we all have these roles, we all have these titles. And I love the title that I have at Hope International. I love the work that I get to do, but I love even more a better title of the title of husband and dad in my life. And I sometimes get those uh titles mixed up in order of prioritization.

Adam Jeske 19:51

Yeah. Uh, thank you for that, that, Peter. It's the the wisdom of having made mistakes. It's hard, hard one. Uh let's go to some some quick response, sort of lightning round questions. You're an author. I imagine you're also a reader. What are a couple of books that have been formative for

Books and Unconventional Wisdom in Leadership

Adam Jeske 20:11

your leadership journey?

Peter Greer 20:12

Oh, so many. The one that I just was picking up again that I hadn't read in a little while was the uh Starfish and the spider, because I'm I'm I'm fascinated with this idea of what happens if we think beyond the bounds of our organization and actually do more uh kind of collective impact thinking, do more movement as opposed to organization thinking. And uh that's that's an interesting one. That's an interesting message. So uh that sparked my uh imagination uh recently. But uh I also just read a great book on contentment uh with the title Contentment. Uh that was a really fascinating one. It comes out soon, and just the big idea of uh what would it look like if we actually uh discovered uh that line of from uh the Apostle Paul but godliness with contentment is great gain? What would that look like in our lives? Uh so anyway, I I I do love reading and I do have a big stack in my office and at my home and uh love the journey of learning with and from other authors.

Adam Jeske 21:17

Is there a piece of conventional leadership or management wisdom that you disregard, that you ignore?

Peter Greer 21:28

Hmm. No, I don't I I wouldn't say categorically disregard. Um no, I uh nothing nothing comes to mind. I think with everything, it's this attitude of curiosity and application. Curiosity to interrogate ideas, not to be afraid to try them out, and also to assume that in every book there are things that will be ill fitting when practiced in my life or with my organization. So I don't know. I've I feel free from the need to create. Critique. I r I really do. Like I've I've I feel free from the need to assume that everything in something that I'm reading or something that I'm learning is going to have wholesale application within the organization and and and to have a curiosity of what in that would be helpful. And not to be too quick to dismiss and not to be too quick to fully adhere to whatever the next uh ideas. And, you know, I think about um, yeah, there just have been a number of different leadership bads, techniques, and there's some good things in in all of them. So I don't know, curiosity and interrogation, uh, and find what works and let go of what doesn't let's extend that question then.

Adam Jeske 22:43

Is there a commitment or a belief or a practice that you have that seems unconventional to other people that you think should be more conventional?

Peter Greer 22:54

Oh, I mean, the recent one, Adam, is uh with Cameron Doolittle and uh Ryan Scoog and Jill Heisey. The we wrote a book called Lead with Prayer. And that is unconventional, right? I mean, what does it look like to bring prayer and leadership together? And most of us, we probably, you know, have a bunch of leadership books. And on my bookshelf, I got some other ones on prayer, but actually bringing those two together and actually to believe that it can make an impact in the workplace. It actually can be incorporated into the way that we think about making decisions. And so I would say that's maybe a little bit unconventional, but it's been powerful in my life. It's been powerful uh in the work that we do. And uh that's that's maybe one uh area of exploration currently.

Adam Jeske 23:42

Peter Greer, president and CEO of Hope International, you said earlier in this interview that you love your work. What do you love about your work?

Peter Greer 23:54

I mean, what initially drew me is that uh the idea of using business and entrepreneurship to break the cycle of poverty, to strengthen churches around the world so that they are loving their neighbors in a very real and practical way, not waiting for people to come to the church, but going out into the marketplace. I just love that idea and the opportunity a number of years later to still love the mission, the promise of what we do as an organization, and to actually love the colleagues that I get to work with. Incredibly capable and competent individuals with hearts to make an impact in our world. So the mission, the people, uh, it's been a tremendous gift to be on this journey together.

Adam Jeske 24:40

Peter, thank you for joining us on the Nonprofit CEO podcast. Thank you so much, Adam. Really enjoyed the conversation. If you know a nonprofit CEO who's carrying something significant, send them this episode. And if you want more of the patterns that I'm seeing across hundreds of CEO conversations, you need the Nonprofit CEO briefing delivered weekly at nonprofit CEO.com. I'm Adam Jesky, the Nonprofit CEO Advisor. Thank you for what you are leading.