011 Prophetic or Pragmatic? | Bread for the World President & CEO Eugene Cho

Eugene Cho started at Bread for the World two days before the COVID lockdown. In his first week, a tweet of his went viral, landing in the Washington Post. He had to figure out how to lead and how to speak, in real time. And this is while stepping up to lead an organization that had been led by the same person for 29 years.

Our conversation covers the three goals he holds in constant tension: building proximity to power, speaking truth to power, and building power in ways that reflect the organization's values. He also walks through how he led a yearlong rebranding of a 50-year institution without producing grief, and what the difference is between being listened to and being acquiesced to.

Eugene also talks about why he doesn't "enjoy" his work and why purpose is a better word than joy for what keeps him going in the current moment.

Eugene Cho is President and CEO of Bread for the World, a Christian advocacy organization with a staff of 60-plus working to end hunger.

Transcript

Introduction to Bread for the World

Adam Jeske 0:04

Nonprofit CEOs are constantly making consequential decisions, often under pressure or in isolation. I'm Adam Jeski, the Nonprofit CEO Advisor, and this is the Nonprofit CEO Podcast, where CEOs talk about the decisions they carry. Today, our guest is Eugene Cho, president and CEO at Bread for the World. Eugene, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Adam. Great to be with you. For the audience who may not be familiar with Bread for the World, tell us a bit about the organization.

Eugene Cho 0:34

Yeah, Bread for the World is a Christian advocacy organization committed to seeing a nation and a world without hunger. Our mission is somewhat unique because, in case you missed it, we deploy all of our energy and resources and mission around advocacy. So we do policy research and analysis. I have a government relations team. I have organizers all around the country. And all of it is trying to be upstream to engage lawmakers so that decisions are helping downstream. And how long have you been leading there? It has been six long years. And I say it feels like dog years. So what is that? Like 42 years. I began two days before the lockdown during COVID, which really contributed to some of the challenges that maybe others face as well.

Navigating Consequential Decisions

Adam Jeske 1:36

So these are years of much consequence. I imagine that you've had to navigate a lot of changes, changing policy environments, uh different pressures on the sector, on things that the people that you serve need, and thus how you're advocating and how you're working for better policy. Tell me about a consequential decision you've had to make in these years, something you've navigated.

Eugene Cho 2:07

Yeah, it's a great question. And even as you ask it, just numerous things come to mind. And this is a hard one because I don't think there's a singular penultimate consequential decision. It feels like there were just dozens of decisions that felt consequential. And I think one of the challenges of these past six years is that there's just been so many of these consequential decisions, both internal, both external. But I would say just a couple come to mind, both internal and external. One is this is so simple, but making a decision to completely rebrand the organization, again, might not seem consequential in the scope of the larger mission of the org. But when you're a 50-year organization and your predecessor was here for 29 years, that feels consequential and guiding and walking the organization through that. That would be one. And I'll share one more and happy to hear all your follow-up questions. But I think the second one, which is not a singular decision, but one that just seems to be pervasive, is how do I, as a CEO of a faith-based organization, during what many would say is some of the most challenging, maybe even adversarial context from a policy perspective around administration related to especially hunger-related programs? How do I, what kind of posture and position do I hold during this time? Balancing that tension between pastoral, prophetic, and pragmatic. So that's not a singular decision, but it's the one that I think about almost every single day.

Adam Jeske 4:05

Let's start on the first one. Uh, when did you do this rebranding process?

The Rebranding Process

Eugene Cho 4:13

Well, it happened in my mind when I was interviewing. And then probably in the first year, we started that process.

Adam Jeske 4:22

And uh what did it all entail? How deeply did you dig into this? I've done branding work in an earlier part of my career. Was it down to name? Um, like how how extensive was this?

Eugene Cho 4:35

Yeah, that's a great question. I think the name was something that I was not interested in touching, just because I think there is obviously some sort of a grounding and foundation and gravitas, even though like every single CEO desires to continue to spread awareness of their particular organization. Um, but I think it really goes back down to um revisiting our values, why we exist. Uh, obviously, as things like uh colors and logos and website uh and how we communicate ourselves. I think every organization understands that while our mission may remain the same, how we articulate our mission and our presentation ought to change and be fluid. And so those are some of the aspects to it. But again, when you're in an organization that's been around for decades, it's a little bit more challenging uh to address all of the various stakeholders that exist.

Adam Jeske 5:36

And as you went through that process, you had some ideas, even in the interview process of what you might want to change or where you felt there was some growth opportunity. As you went through the process, were there ideas or you mentioned values that surfaced that were uh new dynamics for you to hold and think about how to steward as the CEO and president?

Eugene Cho 6:03

You know, I think the fundamental question that I wanted to wrestle with is um what brings us together? What's the common language? Um every organization, I'm sure, they create lots of windows and doors by which people are entering into the mission or if you will, the ecosystem of the organization. And uh Bread for the World, certainly, even if we have a specific lane, we're trying to be as inviting and inclusive as people join our work, especially acknowledging that not a lot of people, in my opinion, still understand or believe in the critical necessity of advocacy work. It's either too political or it's not direct relief, and as a result, it's a waste of our time. So I'm trying to get as many people involved, but also acknowledging that in its 50-year history, many people have come to join Bread for the World. But I think there's different reasons why they've joined. So I think creating a set of values helps explain to our large board, to our staff, to our constituents, uh, to members of Congress and the administration that we engage with that this is who we are. Uh, this is why we do what we do, and these are the means by how we want to do these things. Uh, not so strict that people feel like, gosh, there's no room for me, but at the same time, it creates the boundaries and parameters by which we want to do our work.

Adam Jeske 7:40

And how long did the discernment process of what to emphasize, what to lean into, what to downplay or leave behind from uh the previous season, how long did you work in this process?

Eugene Cho 7:56

You know, I don't quite know the exact time frame, but I would say just generally speaking, it's probably a course of about a month. I'm sorry. That that that sounds very consequential. Uh it was probably a course of a year uh where that took place. And um uh even though my um role at Bread for the World is not a pastor, uh, even though I spent 30 previous years prior to bread, I found it helpful to utilize some of those pastoral muscles, if you will, uh, because there's always a level of attachment or sensitivity to colors or to logo or how we describe things. And so uh I think it it took about about a year plus from beginning and then certainly to rolling out uh aspects of our branding.

Adam Jeske 8:53

Mm-hmm. Uh in an another conversation on the podcast, I was talking to Curtis Chang from Good Faith, and he talked about the way CEOs need to hold grief, sort of be a chief grieving officer when there's a significant change. Sounds as if there may have been some grief around the change, given the longevity of your predecessor. I imagine there's some long-term staff. How did you experience the change and did you have to hold any grief along the way? Take us inside that dynamic.

Managing Change and Grief

Eugene Cho 9:25

Yeah. That's interesting. I I would not articulate it that way. Um, to my knowledge, uh, there were no uh sackcloth and ashes uh as we're recording this. You know, we're in Holy Week, and so I'm trying to put that little aspect in there. But no, I I don't think there was any intense grieving per se. But I think part of that is how we went about doing it, to make sure that there's room and space. As someone that feels as if I've had some good experience around communications and branding. Certainly I could have come in and saying, here's one, two, three, four, this is exactly what we're gonna do in one month, as an exaggeration. But um, we certainly wanted to make sure that we employed as many opportunities to engage and to listen. And I do think that oftentimes the task, the art of leading as an executive isn't just the what of the decision. That obviously matters, but it's also the how. So I'm really proud of our team of going about the how in a thoughtful, uh, engaging, inclusive way, so that even if people may not have liked the fact that we were rebranding, they felt heard and seen and understood. And this is uh the line that I often share is that my pledge to you as a as a president is um I will always make room to listen to you. I may not acquiesce, uh, and you'll have to make sure that you understand the distinction between being listened to and being acquiesced to. And so I think we did a really good job creating spaces. And so as a result, I think that's what contributed to no grief. People may have disagreed, or they may not have liked the ultimate decisions or the colors and what have you. Uh so I'm really proud of that.

Adam Jeske 11:24

Sometimes in a branding process there, a leader may have strong preferences. Uh, sounds like as a you're thoughtful about communication and you may have had some strong opinions. Was there anything that you needed to listen to the the branding team, the research, uh audience research that you needed to sort of set aside out of your preferences? Did anything surface of that nature?

Eugene Cho 11:54

Hmm. Uh, you know, to be honest, I think it's the whole process. Um and not to say that I'm not process-oriented, uh, but I think in the world that I come from, um I'm grateful for my opportunity to lead bread for the world, but uh it's also a new world. I'm also learning as well. And I suspect that other CEOs, if we're all being honest, there's an element where we're still struggling with the imposter syndrome. These are new spaces and places. This is definitely a new space and place. Uh, and I know that not all of your listeners are coming from the faith uh angle, but I I worked as a senior pastor of churches for about 30 years. And while there is some process, it wasn't as robust as this. So when you're working with uh an agency, uh uh they have a process. And I'm not sure who's the originator of this uh quote, but there's a line that says, you've got to trust the process. Certainly, I think I had to kind of yield myself to that, even though in my mind I had a particular outcome that I thought we were going to get to.

Adam Jeske 13:12

Along the way, you have uh recently entered the organization and begun leading the organization. You're working with an agency. I imagine there's other internal stakeholders, you're getting to know uh longtime supporters of the organization, peer organizations, others that that work in adjacent lanes. Were there folks uh within the organization and without the organization that you ended up asking for input on where that you sought counsel from uh on the branding process on the brand one?

Eugene Cho 13:50

You know, I mean, we have so many various stakeholders that I think just engaging them, and so the answer is yes, right? We have uh I have a board that's over 30 people, I have a staff of uh 60 plus people. And so I think just engaging these two communities in itself feels like a lot of voices, which is good. I think they they need to be informed and engaged, and so uh, and of course, certainly uh we have to kind of whittle that down as we move through the process, right? You start large in the funnel and then you begin to hone in. Um, but certainly also working with uh an agency that's uh well known and well respected, they had their team as well to make sure that uh there were multiple voices. And then certainly uh one of the parts that I love is having clarity on how the decision-making process takes place. Sometimes when you have too many voices and there's a lack of clarity on how decisions are being made, and that's probably a microcosm of just decision-making, period, whether it's branding or anything else, is how do you listen? How do you make sure that there's uh on-ramps to that discussion and conversation, but also providing clarity along the way so that uh people who understand that they're stakeholders also know how the decision will ultimately be made. In some ways, I think as I look back and as I'm reflecting on it, even right now live, that was a tremendous real-time learning lessons about decision making for our organization, because every single organization, again, has different unique nuances of how things and decisions are being made.

Decision-Making Dynamics

Adam Jeske 15:42

Was there a moment in this decision process around the branding of the organization, what you would emphasize, what needs to drive uh Bread's language and look and feel and how people experience the organization? Was there a time where you thought, uh-oh, this is not going well? This is not what I thought we were navigating, um, where you started to experience some of the um uh negative emotion uh as you're newly leading in this, talking about a very consequential change for the organization you've begun leading. Was there a time where it felt like maybe this is going sideways?

Eugene Cho 16:24

I don't think so, but I also know that it felt long, even though a year might seem short. All of it is it's relative, right? But it certainly felt long to me when you're working on so many other important, consequential matters. But I think that was one of the questions that came up is when there's so much happening and so much need and so much important work to be done, is this the best utilization of resources and time? Uh, that was probably a lingering question that came up. You know, it's it's hard to respond to someone when someone says the logo served us fine for decades. Why are we utilizing energy and resources? But I think the part that helped us tremendously is beginning the entire process. It wasn't part of the branding, but it indirectly became part of the branding. And that was an exercise before we started the branding, which was basically a values exercise that we conducted as an organization. Like, what are the values for us as an organization? Because I noticed that multiple people had different reasons why they were part of Bread for the World. There were multiple reasons why they joined the board or are on staff, and the list goes on. And all of that obviously is legitimate and credible and small t true. There's different reasons that motivate people to join. But I wanted to make sure that in addition to that, there was a set of common language. And that's why I think our value exercises. And so I'll give an example of that. One of our values, um, you know, there's there's numerous, but one of the values is that we value uh working as a nonpartisan organization, working in bipartisan ways. And so our language, our branding isn't meant to sound partisan. Like one shouldn't come onto our website and go, oh, this is a left-right, or this is extreme one way or the other, uh, because it's a reflection of how we uh see ourselves in our identity and how we want to do our work. So that's an important example. Sometimes when you have many, many stakeholders, you and I both know language matters, and language is also changing so rapidly in our time. Uh, what used to be a word five years ago that maybe even preachers used or leaders may have used uh now sounds like an incredibly polarizing word. Just think about an example is the word woke. I mean, it is shocking how that has gone through a roller coaster of meaning. And uh so that's an example of how our values help shape how we went about our branding exercises.

Engagement and Advocacy Strategies

Adam Jeske 19:25

That seems like a good moment to hop from the decision around branding to some of your reflections on the series of decisions around your posture, your position around engagement and presence as the CEO at Bread for the World. Tell me a little bit about that family of decisions. I don't know if there's one to drill into or if it's generally a collection that you can talk about in the aggregate.

Eugene Cho 19:57

Well, I hope it's okay for me to share this. Uh, Adam, you've been gracious and generous to host convenings in different places where we've been at similar spaces. And um, there was a um a gathering that you hosted about six months ago or so with a bunch of other CEOs. I guess that's like uh the in-person podcast that took place that wasn't recorded. Right. And uh it was really life-giving because I think in vulnerability, people just shared about some of the stress points. And I think for me, uh what continues to be a both an opportunity and a challenge is prior to coming to bread, again as a pastor, um, I also saw my role being a public theologian, as someone that was trying to exegete uh and speak to some of the tensions of our times. And I think in my previous role or in my previous hat, I would be certainly opining on lots of the things that are going on. And what I now understand, six years into it, and not just right now, but part of my role at Brad is that there are three goals that I as a CEO am trying to wrestle with on a regular basis. And the three goals that I have is all contributing to the ultimate mission, is how do I build relationships and have proximity to power? Um, this is probably not the most dominant thing that other CEOs think about, but because as an advocacy organization, having access to tables where decisions and discussions are being made is one of the three most important things that I wrestle with. And so I've got to be incredibly careful with my words. And I don't like it. I don't like it. And I've often said that if I could publish all of my unpublished tweets, I'm going to still use the word tweets for Twitter. I could probably write a book. But that's one of the goals is how do I, how do we at bread build relationship, build proximity to power so that we can advocate for those who may not have power. The second goal that I have is how do we speak truth to power? So I want to make this really clear. That first thing that I listed is not the ultimate goal. I think there are folks that could just be drunk on just having access to power. And our motivation is we want to be able to speak truth to power through education, through advocacy, through bringing along our friends with lived experiences, bringing leaders from other continents who are deeply impacted by the executive orders or the demise of USAID. But that's also very important. And the third one, obviously, well, I'm not sure if it's obvious, but the third one is how do we build power in a way that reflects our values as an organization? So members and fundraising and speaking to our constituents, and the list goes on. That tension is the tension that I that I seek to be effective and impactful on a regular basis.

Adam Jeske 23:40

Yeah. An organization that is dealing with such a tangible need as food insecurity, malnutrition, but doing it through this advocacy lane, advocacy practice does create a particularly befuddling dynamic where you're trying to invite people to participate by helping you influence decision makers and people with power. But it's on behalf of people who are in tremendously vulnerable states.

Eugene Cho 24:21

Yep. Yeah, I think you you nailed it. But also the dynamic of we're also doing this in what I think many would say, you certainly could argue. I speak with folks that have been doing this work for decades. And a common phrase or narrative is this is the most polarizing time in American politics. I have no reason to question that. And it's also some of the most pettiest time in American politics. And so, how do we do this work in a way that reflects our values? So we don't want to lose our prophetic ability to speak truth to power. And I often tell folks that feel like I'm not being vociferous or vocal enough. I mean, I could easily get on the news if that was my motivation. I can just walk into Congress, do something absolutely insane, and make the news and bread for the world would get some attention in the media. And I could then say, you know what, there is no such thing as bad press. We'll use everything. But the danger of it all is that we have to be at these tables and at these offices. And unfortunately, without naming names, there are organizations who, for at times befuddling reasons, don't have as much access. And for us as an advocacy organization, so imagine a water organization not having access to building water wells. It would be the demise.

Stewardship and Balance in Leadership

Eugene Cho 26:16

So that's how and why I steward that with such care. And it's hard. And you know, I'm I'm just basically coming on here. You're not my therapist, Adam, but I'm basically saying don't hey, don't send me a bill. Don't don't charge me. This is you said this was a pro bono podcast. But but I do think that's the part that I still wrestle with. Yeah. Because there's no perfect balance.

Adam Jeske 26:45

As you go through uh you're constantly in this balance, you're in this negotiation with yourself, you're in a discernment posture a lot. Do you have, and then this can extend beyond this particular topic to decision making generally. How do you make decisions? Do you have uh rules of thumb or heuristics when you feel stuck? What do you do?

Decision-Making Processes and Heuristics

Eugene Cho 27:13

Yeah, man. Nah, you do sound like my therapist. Uh so so uh this is uh you you've got to start a different uh you've got you've got pop you've got podcast A and you've got a podcast B, the underground therapy sessions for CEOs. I mean, you know, I I don't have a linear systematic way by which I make a decision. I don't have a checklist. And but I think generally speaking, um, like others, there's certain things that I have as part of my, I guess, tool belt or process. But the first one is I'm a processor. I'm not interested in placing myself or being forced into spaces where I have to make an instant decision. I can count on my hand, feeling that kind of pressure. And some of the best decision that I've made is to say, relax, back off a little bit. I need some time. And letting people know here's the time that I need. But I would say being a processor, I'm a big walker. I need my steps, not just for my goals of getting my 10,000 steps, but I think these steps are part of my mental balance and wellness and space that I need. I have my executive team that I try to utilize and covet their advice, their wisdom, their expertise. I want to keep ensuring that I'm never the smartest person in the room. Uh and I mean that sincerely. I've got tons of people on my team that are much better in policy, much better in government relations, are better in organizing. So I want to surround myself with that. And then, of course, I've got my board. And sometimes having a large board is not necessarily the most conducive to making decisions. And so we've made a decision as a board to have an executive team within that board by which I can come to for assistance on some decisions.

Influential Books and Sources of Hope

Adam Jeske 29:27

Let's uh move from these really large decision processes into some other terrain, some quick responses, uh, sort of a lightning round. Tell me about uh a book or two that have been uh particularly formational for your leadership that have been helpful in these six years leading at bread. And bonus points if it is an uncommon title.

Eugene Cho 29:58

Well, I'm not gonna get those bonus points, unfortunately. Um this is your version of March Madness of uh CEO guests. This is not necessarily very popular, and it's not a leadership decision or a leadership book per se. And it's a very common answer because I have it on my uh on my office and I resort to it regularly, but it's a compilation, and again, I'm not trying to make folks that are not coming from a faith perspective feel unwelcome, but there's a book, a compilation of writingslash sermons, written by a gentleman by the name of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. called A Testament of Hope. And the reason why it's been particularly important to me, and I chuckle because I think hope has been the biggest challenge.

Adam Jeske 30:56

Yeah.

Eugene Cho 30:57

If I'm just being honest. Now, as a person of faith, I'm supposed to say I have faith, but it doesn't mean that we don't struggle with hope and encouragement or discouragement and despondency and disillusionment or cynicism. And so that book has been an incredible source. And I like it. I like when things are broken up where I don't feel like I need to go through the entire book to find out rays of glimmers of encouragement. So that's that would be my answer.

Adam Jeske 31:31

When we were together a few months ago, you got to meet my wife. She's uh a professor of anthropology, and she has a course called How to Hope. Um, so I'll I'll have her pull the syllabus and I'll send it your way to it's been a very popular course at this particular juncture. I think not just our generation and not just leaders, but it it sounds like she needs to start a podcast. I've told her this.

Eugene Cho 31:59

Okay.

Adam Jeske 32:00

Right right now, she's on other people podcast uh other people's podcasts promoting her uh her book, but um yeah, she does write regularly, and so people can subscribe to that. Um Christine Jeski is her name. I'll give the plug. Eugene, uh, what is something that you wish you had been told before you started leading at Bread for the World?

Eugene Cho 32:24

I

Unexpected Challenges in Leadership

Eugene Cho 32:25

I don't have a I don't have a good answer. Um that's fine. You can pass. So let me just say, yeah, I don't have a good answer. It but there were so many unexpected curveballs. I mean, so many. And so the reason why I have a hard time answering that question is who in their right mind would have had the foresight to say, Eugene, on day three, you're going to be in a lockdown and you'll work for about four 14, 16 months from your office at home.

Adam Jeske 33:02

Yeah.

Eugene Cho 33:03

Uh, who would tell me that? Well, I guess I I did not know the constant turnover of staffing that happens in Washington, D.C. Yeah, has the highest turnover rate. And so in my first six months, um, I lost my two, four, and six because of transitions and retirement. And again, they reassured me, Eugene, we love you. This is not you, it's not personal. But that transpired. Who would have told me that I wrote a tweet on my first day on the job that went viral and made it to the Washington Post and the New York Times. So, speaking about that situation, about trying to be really, really careful, I guess I failed to share that it was also in part because of this um one tweet that I had shared really carefully about asking then the president uh to be really careful about how he was uh utilizing the phrase Chinese virus. Um as an Asian American, I could tell you unequivocally that even before anti-Asian sentiment became mainline or mainstream news, my family, my children, people that I know very personally were being, I was seeing it with our own eyes and feeling it, and I was concerned. And obviously that went viral, that tweet, because there was a headline that said, evangelical pastor condemns, you know, the president. Uh I didn't know that. Um, and so there's lots of things that I could not have foreseen. But I think that's the lesson that I keep learning again and again is that even as we try to be as informed, as uh thoughtful as um uh to be as uh leaders with tremendous foresight, there are just going to be surprises that we just don't know.

Finding Purpose in Nonprofit Work

Adam Jeske 35:03

Eugene Cho, president and CEO of Bread for the World. What do you love about your work?

Eugene Cho 35:12

I love this question because uh my board recently asked me this question. Um and I'm gonna just be as honest as I can because you know what? I'm gonna get my money's worth from this therapy session. Sun's gonna be uh so I don't typically use the word enjoy for the work that I'm doing. Um and I think some have found that to be a little concerning or problematic. Because I think in our in our ideal scenario, we want to be giddy, we want to be singing our songs, and I'm this makes me so happy and joyful. But my framework is that this gives me tremendous purpose, and that's I guess you could say the rooting of my joy. But I don't go around saying, man, I'm having so much fun. I I have so much delight meeting with the administration or Congress. And I'm not trying to demonize anyone, but that's not the motivation. But if you were to ask me, does this give you purpose? Does this wake you up? Does this wake you up in the morning or sometimes keep you up? The answer is yes, because it gives me purpose. I know that it might not seem like it because there's so much chaos in our world as you and I are speaking. But you know, about a month ago, uh, after a lot and lots of work and advocacy and meetings and briefings and constituencies, all of the above, uh, and I know it's not just read, many of our coalition partners, but the president signed into law a bill that added $19 billion to the sort of the larger international package. $19 billion above what the administration originally proposed in what they call a PBR, a president's budget request. Now, it's still below significantly what it was in years past. But you know what? That gives me lots of purpose. Yeah. And I am grateful because you and I, and I'm sure many of your listeners will know that it's not just about the $19 billion. What that translates to is more women having access to maternal health care, more children in schools, more food, uh, more ready-to-use therapeutic foods, more hospitals, more medicine, more vaccines. It means more people created in the image of God are going to have an opportunity to have life-saving aid and hopefully a pathway to flourishing.

Adam Jeske 38:09

Yes. It's difficult to lead a nonprofit that deals with such uh raw, uh stark human need because you're always in this place of knowing that there's more uh and knowing that there are people who could help. And it's uh it's an uncomfortable spot. Thank you for your leadership.

Eugene Cho 38:33

Yeah. And Adam, I'll just add this, and I don't know if this will resonate with any folks, but um, because I've been engaged in this work even as a pastor, but in other ways, you know, I think part of the reason why this work has been so challenging for me, and maybe for others doing this work, is at times it doesn't feel there's a tangible evidence or expression of progress. So, for example, I don't have water wells to stand next to and go look at what we all did. And and please, I hope no one who's listening to this thinks I'm taking a little bit of a slight against people that are doing direct relief because I know they also have tremendous challenges as well. But there's I don't have a school that I can stand next to. I don't have a uh a student's desk, I don't have a hospital. That's why I think working upstream, where on a regular basis, my impact is the number of meetings that we're having with members of Congress. And it's not just one meeting, it's two meetings, it's just a constant flow of meetings where uh impact can sometimes take years. Yeah. Uh we passed a bill in year three of my term, and it was called the uh the Global Malnutrition Prevention and Treatment Act. And it took three years to get that one bill signed. And I remember speaking with other CEOs about just bemoaning and complaining how long it took. And somebody asked me, Well, how long did it take you? And I said, three years. And I was stunned by their reaction. Her mouth dropped, literally, she it dropped, and she said, Eugene, that's quick. And I think that's when I realized, oh, this is this is a different, it's a different ballpark. It's a different game. I'm not here trying to, again, get sympathy points, but I think it's part of the challenge of how do we keep uh ongoing in this

Navigating the Complexity of Nonprofit Leadership

Eugene Cho 40:50

work.

Adam Jeske 40:52

Eugene, thanks for what you're leading at Bread for the World. And thank you for joining us on the Nonprofit CEO podcast. Thanks so much for the free therapy. And everyone, if you know a nonprofit CEO who's carrying something significant, send them the show. And if you want more of the patterns that I'm seeing across hundreds of these CEO conversations, you need the nonprofit CEO briefing delivered weekly at nonprofit CEO.com. I'm

Future Transitions and Succession Planning

Adam Jeske 41:17

Adam Jesky, the Nonprofit CEO Advisor. Thank you for what you're leading.