019 The Mud Floor Test | Mennonite Central Committee U.S. Exec. Dir. Ann Graber Hershberger

Ann Graber Hershberger spent nearly four decades connected to Mennonite Central Committee before she led it: first as a worker in Nicaragua and El Salvador, then through years of board service, alongside a 33-year career as a nursing professor. She is retiring this summer as its executive director.

When she set out to address racial equity at MCC, the question wasn't whether to act. The organization had tried before, more than once, and those efforts had ended up on a shelf. The hard part was how to do it so something would actually change.

This conversation covers how she chose a process built for quiet, lasting change over public declaration, and what it felt like to hold that decision as a white woman with institutional power and no personal experience of what she was trying to address. She also talks about the decisions a CEO has to carry without being able to explain them, the mental test she set for herself years ago to stay grounded, and what she wishes she'd understood about technology before taking the job.

Ann Graber Hershberger has served as Executive Director of Mennonite Central Committee, a relief, development, and peace organization that has worked through Anabaptist churches for over 100 years in approximately 45 countries.

Transcript

Introduction to MCC and Leadership Journey

Adam Jeske 0:04

Nonprofit CEOs are constantly making consequential decisions, often under pressure or in isolation. I'm Adam Jeski, the Nonprofit CEO Advisor, and this is the Nonprofit CEO podcast, where CEOs and executive directors and presidents talk about the decisions they carry. Today, our guest is Dr. Ann Graber Hirschberger, Executive Director of the Mennonite Central Committee. Anne, welcome to the show.

Ann Graber Hershberger 0:27

Thank you. It's good to be here.

Adam Jeske 0:29

First off, what is the Mennonite Central Committee or MCC?

Ann Graber Hershberger 0:33

Mennonite Central Committee, known as MCC Around the World, is a relief and development and peace organization that is supported by Anabaptist churches, Mennonites, Brethren of Christ, and others around the world. And we work in to be their service agency as opposed to mission agency. So we work in about 45 countries around the world.

Adam Jeske 0:58

Roughly how many employees or volunteers? Give me a sense of the people involved.

Ann Graber Hershberger 1:03

Employees between the Mennonite Central Committee, MCC Canada, MCC US, and the provinces, regions, and international program, we're about 1,200 employees around the world. There are different parts of MCC. So there are actually 11 MCC boards, which gets a little complicated, but that's how we work.

Adam Jeske 1:28

How did you come to lead at MCC?

Ann Graber Hershberger 1:33

I began with, well, I grew up knowing about MCC. It's over 100 years old, and uh I'm not over 100 years old, although I'm getting up there. But but I grew up as this being part of uh what we did as a church, providing um material resources such as comforters and and different kits, meat canning. And so then when I went into service or following following graduation from college, um was my husband and I worked with MCC in the 80s in Nicaragua and El Salvador, and again in the 90s a bit. And following that in the 90s, I began working as a part of the board structure, first on the East Coast, then the national board, which related to international programs. And then meanwhile, I was in academia teaching at a Mennonite University. And when I retired from that position, then moved from being board chair uh to a staff. I applied for a staff position as associate director and moved into the director position about a year later. So I've been now staff six years.

Navigating Racial Equity Decisions

Adam Jeske 2:45

Tell me about a consequential decision you've had to make as the executive director there at MCC.

Ann Graber Hershberger 2:52

I think the one that I would like to uh highlight is this next steps to make related to racial equity. MCC has had a checkered history in terms of starts of trying to value or wanting to value racial equity and doing well in some cases and very badly in other cases. And throughout history, there have been reviews and uh assessments. And it was time to do another one when I first began in as a staff person. And probably the the consequence of that why I look at that is that I was very particular about the kind of review that we did. I was very uh wary of a review that you would just say, here's the report card, you're doing well here and that here, and this is and a few recommendations, and then it gets put on the shelf and nothing happens. So I looked very carefully, both for for someone who understood an MCC that we are coming at this from a faith perspective. This comes out not just because it's a it's a value, but it's deeply held, formed value that that comes out of our faith. So I was looking for a reviewer that would understand the faith perspective, as well as have a whole change management plan, not just the report.

Adam Jeske 4:23

I imagine with something like a contentious topic, an important, like heartfelt topic like racial equity, and then also what you just mentioned in terms of a checkered history and a pattern of trying to make some progress, but not really making progress, it sounds like what were the internal forces kind of pushing for that personally or amongst the leadership team throughout the organization? And were there any external forces uh in terms of the timing of that next process on that important question?

Internal Dynamics and Diversity in Leadership

Ann Graber Hershberger 4:58

Actually, when I think about that, I don't think there were external pressures so much. It was all internal. It certainly had nothing to do with funding. Um and when I say internal, I mean both who we are as staff, boards, but also including constituents. Uh many, many churches of color are part of our constituency in the U.S. I'm speaking primarily from the U.S. Uh so the internal, yeah, it was more internal. Uh like we want to do this because it's the right thing to do. How do we do it in a way that has integrity and and and goes into the system? I think probably what has helped me in this is this started way back when I was on the board. So um our board has become racially diverse over the last 20 years, and I have been deeply formed and um counseled and uh called on the carpet, and uh I've I people have been a sister and brother to me who have helped me understand my own racial blindness often. And so it was a share, a shared mission. There were also a variety of approaches to racial equity, and within the board, we were looking at one trying to say, how can we do this in a way that that most speaks to where people are and their faith understanding?

Adam Jeske 6:38

It sounds like the board had increased in diversity before the time period you're talking about.

Ann Graber Hershberger 6:46

Correct. Uh before we started this particular uh there had been many evaluations and assessments before I became staff when I was on the board.

Adam Jeske 6:55

How did the board increase in racial diversity uh before starting this season you're describing?

Ann Graber Hershberger 7:05

Our board is a not an expert board, it's a representative board. And so in the U.S., we are represented there uh the each region, regional board sends a representative. Each of the seven supporting denominations, um, Mennonite and Brethren in Christ and other uh send a send it send representatives. And then we have at-large positions. And about 10 years ago, maybe actually probably 15, we changed the bylaws to include three of the six at-large positions must be reserved for people of color.

Decision-Making Process in Racial Equity

Ann Graber Hershberger 7:43

The whole idea of quotas is uh is problematic in in many ways, has some problems, and yet there is no other way often to get something started and make it a deeply held value unless you work that way. And that has that that helped help shape us.

Adam Jeske 8:01

I certainly know of lots of organizations that would like to increase the diversity of their board racially, on gender lines, areas of expertise, affinity or connection with different parts of the organization. So that's interesting to hear a little bit. As far as the actual decision process, once you were in leadership and decided to enter into uh questions around uh improving racial equity, was the crux of the question whether or not to engage that or what to actually do about it?

Ann Graber Hershberger 8:34

The crux of the question was who's going to what kind of person or agency is going to do it? What positionality do they come from? As well as what are you going to do about it? So those were the two.

Adam Jeske 8:49

But but the first the first one I had to deal with was who and what were the options in that set, and how did you make that part of the decision?

Ann Graber Hershberger 8:58

Probably the some of the tensions within staff and board would be how you approach as a follower of Jesus, how do you approach this need, this um actual blindness within particularly white, white folks. We sometimes, a number of the board members and I came to when I was still on the board was some people need a Damascus Road experience, and some people need an Emmaus walk experience. And we were looking to perhaps increase the Emmaus walk experience. So you start with not just a scarcity mindset. If the group that's working on this is a multiracial group, you're look at both what strengths you can build on and where the gaps are. Each year we have a day of learning in MCC that has to do with racial equity themes. And this year, uh the team that worked on this talked about um use the image of having a lamp that's that has oil. How full is our lamp?

Challenges in Leadership and Decision-Making

Ann Graber Hershberger 10:17

And what oil do we already have, and what oil do we need to add? Uh it was so so trying to work at it from that point of view. Uh, where are we starting with? What can we build on? But clearly saying there are gaps and we want to work at those, but not uh focusing only on the gaps.

Adam Jeske 10:40

And how was the decision made about what to actually do coming out of this season early in your leadership?

Ann Graber Hershberger 10:48

There was a racial equity director by that time. Well, there had been, but the person that I and I actually had not hired that person. She was there when I came in. And she and I worked very carefully to vet uh about three different companies to um consultants to work at this. So the decision, while we went broader with um uh trying to get input on who would what kind of group would do this, the decision was ours. The decision was a bit contested, in part because the the particular consultant that we wanted to work with was not seen as being on the cutting edge of diversity issues, naming, not seen as somebody who can name things very, very boldly, but someone who saw ways to work in on the inside of changing approaches and parts of the system that are unseen but have long-term consequences.

Adam Jeske 11:58

And was there a moment that was particularly difficult for you personally in this decision-making process?

Ann Graber Hershberger 12:06

I can't recall a moment, a particular moment. It was more like the ability or the um perhaps the tenacity to keep driving forward with what what I believed was the right approach for MCC and its broad uh constituency and its uh broad employee uh population in the U.S.

Adam Jeske 12:33

You

Personal Reflections on Leadership

Adam Jeske 12:34

obviously were talking to the uh racial equity director that you mentioned in in this process of making this decision. Were there other people that you spoke with yourself in terms of incorporating one-to-one advice or a small group just for you as you were going about your leadership of the decision-making process?

Ann Graber Hershberger 12:56

I would have talked to the to the to my board chair uh about this approach and this decision. Also, some of the the senior leadership staff um yeah, particularly an HR human, the human resources director.

Adam Jeske 13:15

And what made this decision difficult?

Ann Graber Hershberger 13:20

Probably disagreements about the kind of voice that MCC should have. Should we have a very public, strident declarative voice about racial equity? Or should we work more at matters of the heart and try to work behind the scenes? I was quite sure that what we needed was not more public declare declarations, but we needed to do the inside work. And part of what was attractive uh and difficult and and it took a lot of long-term work, was were things like slowly but deliberately working at bias in hiring for one thing. So while we shared out the the report and the plan, and we worked with it with all of our leaders and still do some of those very specific things. So as I look back now five years later, it's five years, what I see is a completely different way of approaching hiring.

Adam Jeske 14:34

And how did it feel to make this particular decision?

Ann Graber Hershberger 14:39

Well, I'm I'm a white privileged female, and I am making decisions about a value that I hold, but I have no uh internal, no personal experience of what it feels like to be treated in a racist manner in an agency?

Consequential Decisions in Nonprofit Leadership

Ann Graber Hershberger 15:03

It's a difficult uh something that you hold knowing you have the power and you're making this decision when it's not your life.

Adam Jeske 15:13

In your experience, both as a board member and then as the executive director, what areas of leadership in a large nonprofit like MCC consistently produce the hardest decisions?

Ann Graber Hershberger 15:28

Well, I would say one one of the one thing that comes to mind in response to that is the fact that you know I've already mentioned there are 11 boards. And there's there's a history and culture in MCC that says everybody gets to speak into every decision. That obviously cannot be true in the size of agency that we have, but it does mean that when I actually think about a decision that I have had to make, it's not always easy to determine what a decision was because it's so collaborative and so back and forth and takes a long time. If I think about the specific quick decisions, it would have to do with COVID. We have to do this now. And even that was contested because so-and-so need to speak into it and so-and-so need to speak into it. So there aren't lots of those kinds of things, of those kinds of questions that aren't collaborative. If we're talking about international program, everything has to go through both myself and my Canadian colleague, the ED of Canada, because together we manage international programs. There aren't many things that I can point to, but probably in response to your question, it it's those things that we have to decide that are not public, but we have to do something and decide something that people don't know about, and we have to carry it. We have to carry the pain and the heaviness of that when it's not a public decision. We can't explain ourselves.

Adam Jeske 17:08

Are you able to share examples, not necessarily even specific, but general uh topics of those decisions? Financial things, personnel things, um, programmatic decisions, strategic moves?

Sustaining a Long Career in One Organization

Ann Graber Hershberger 17:22

Programmatic, and what comes to mind is programmatic moves um in terms of where we are, what how we approach things. Uh some, of course, there's always personnel decisions, uh, but that's that's true in any any agency. Um if I think about what's most important and what I pay most attention to and the little tiny decisions that are then consequential, it has to do with mission. Does this fit with our mission? Uh does this keep us following our mission, vision, our identity mission, and vision? So there are probably a myriad of tiny decisions along the way that I cannot point to as a consequential decision that have to do with guiding in a particular way toward staying with our mission and vision.

Adam Jeske 18:21

And those questions, those those decisions that are needed often involve saying we're not going to do that because it is not resonant with our mission. Aaron Powell Correct. Right. What do you wish someone had told you before you took this role leading at MCC?

Ann Graber Hershberger 18:40

I had a pretty good idea what I was getting into, having been on the field as well as in board leadership for decades, literally decades. I'm I'm I think I'm around 40 years altogether. So I knew quite a bit about what I was getting into. Um probably has to do with how much uh technology I would have to learn and relearn and relearn and relearn as things change. Uh not so much the leadership issues.

Adam Jeske 19:13

For the lightning round, Ann, uh what is a book or a couple of books that have been formative for your leadership?

Final Thoughts and Reflections on Leadership

Ann Graber Hershberger 19:20

Uh The Color of Compromise by Jamar Tisby. We spent a year uh studying that book in in uh in MCC, and that has been very useful. Another book that was very key for me in this in this journey was is The Minority Experience by Adrian Pay, PEI. Um that was very helpful.

Adam Jeske 19:44

Is there a piece of conventional wisdom that you ignore?

Ann Graber Hershberger 19:48

That you have to portray a particular image as a leader.

Adam Jeske 19:53

Tell me more.

Ann Graber Hershberger 19:54

If there would be another consequential decision, uh it it it's it's long term, but it's basically remaining who I am. I have to remain who I am. When I was considering a doctoral degree, I was afraid it would take me away from grassroots. And I cared deeply about grassroots. I started out as a public health nurse, international health nurse. And um I wrote an article called Carrying Tortillas into the Ivory Tower, remembering who I am, and I set up a mental image for myself that if I ever find or realize that I cannot sleep, visit, or sleep in a house with a mud floor, then I have lost my way and I have to stop whatever I'm doing. I'm a farm girl, I'm a grassroots person, I have to stay who I am. You remember in The Lord of the Rings, uh, the elf Queen Galadriel, when when Frodo offered the ring, she thought about it and then she said, I must remain who I am and I must diminish and go back.

Adam Jeske 21:24

That's lovely, Anne. Dr. Anne Graber Hirschberger, executive director of the Mennonite Central Committee, what do you love about your work?

Ann Graber Hershberger 21:37

Oh, so many things. I love traveling to see how many people around the world see themselves as MCC, whether they are staff working in their own country, staff working in another country and learning the language of that country. Whether it's our partner, partner staff who say, Well, I'm MCC. Uh, you know, you don't pay me, but I'm MCC, participants, hundreds and hundreds of volunteers in material resource centers around the US and Canada who create comforters, pack school kits, uh relief kits. Um, how many people talk to me about how they found their way, or as they would put it, how God led them to work for MCC. Uh, the people who I meet when I speak in churches who have a long history or just found out about MCC and say, I really trust this organization because of XYZ. I love most of it, to tell you the truth.

Adam Jeske 22:52

And you've had a really long career with one organization, seeing it out in the field as a staff worker, as a uh board member for a long stretch, as the executive director for a number of years. How do you reflect on this very long career within one organization? How do you think about the longevity piece of your career?

Ann Graber Hershberger 23:19

And how have you sustained that one can be uh part of an organization for way too long? And in part, uh, that's that's partly why I'm well, I'm 72, so it's time to retire, and I am retiring this summer. But um I also, if you can remain agile and curious about what God is doing in the future, then you can bring history to bear in a useful way. You might want to know that we did it this way, or this was what the board decided because of that, but that only is as background for the future. Does it not mean, well, we can't change because we've always done it that way? I'm deathly afraid of that phrase. You always share history in terms of context and a platform from which to make a decision. And I think you need both brand new voices. I brought in voices, I brought in staff members to MCC who did not grow up hearing about MCC, who it's brand new to them in many ways. That has also been consequential and uh sometimes contested, but it's the only way MCC can stay vibrant for the for the years ahead. And that is, I have not always been deeply part of MCC. I had a 33-year career as a university professor, always connected via a board or via my own uh volunteer work, but I'm not only staff for that many years. And I think that would have been a disaster.

Adam Jeske 25:09

Why would it have been a disaster?

Ann Graber Hershberger 25:11

Because I I would have gotten brittle and hung on to too many things, but because I was in and out in different ways, I could bring in new perspectives for myself.

Adam Jeske 25:22

And what kind of CEO are you? What kind of executive director are you?

Ann Graber Hershberger 25:28

I do not fit any of the theories. I taught them, I know them, and I think you use parts of them depending on the time and your point in life and what the institution needs and the very particular set group of staff and constituents that you have. So I don't know that anybody can pin me down.

Adam Jeske 25:57

Ann, thank you for joining us on the Nonprofit CEO podcast. It's been great talking with you today.

Ann Graber Hershberger 26:02

What a delight to be with you, and thank you.

The Complexity of Executive Roles

Adam Jeske 26:06

If you know a nonprofit CEO or executive director who's carrying something significant, send them the episode. And if you want more of the patterns I'm seeing across hundreds of CEO conversations delivered weekly, you need the nonprofit CEO briefing at nonprofitceo.com. I'm Adam Jeski, the nonprofit CEO advisor. Thank you for what you're leading.