Jonathan Wilson - Part 2

The second part of my chat with football writer Jonathan Wilson. Here, Jonathan talks about reading as a superpower; alternative definitions of talent; the challenges facing journalism and newspapers; the thirst for long-form content; the "camaraderie of the pack"; and a man with an alarming facial tattoo.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to the Ender Moment podcast to tell stories of remarkable careers. My name's Paul Howard. This is part two of my conversation with the football journalist and author Jonathan Wilson. So far, we've heard about Jonathan's early days in Sunderland. We've heard about him teaching in an Indian monastery. We've heard about him cutting his journalistic teeth at the news of the world. And we rejoin him now just as he has had his first book Behind the Curtain published. Okay, so you released your first book, so that that's a that's a s a signal moment in a career, I should imagine. Talk us through that.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Yeah, I mean, it was loads of fun to do, and it sold pretty well without selling brilliantly well, but it got good reviews, and that got me a second book. And that was well, the second book I was contracted to do was Inverting the Pyramid, which is a history of all tactics, which has been by far my bestseller. Yeah. Before I'd finished that, I got contracted to do a book on Sutton's promotion under Roy Keane, which I tossed off in six weeks. Yeah. Uh which is it's fine, but it's it's a book written quickly for a specific moment. Yep. So Inverting the Pyramid comes out and that actually changes everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Yeah. Suddenly, I mean, you know, that's made a fair chunk of money, but it more importantly, it's it gave me a reputation that I was suddenly taken seriously by people who hadn't taken me seriously before.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Okay, so which new doors is that opening?

SPEAKER_03 1:29

Well, suddenly newspapers are saying, Oh, could you do a tactical piece on this? Or um that's when Sports Illustrated first got in touch and asked me to do stuff for them, and all of that was was tactics-based. Um it just gave me an international reputation that I hadn't had before. And that that opened a load of doors, and and I started doing well, I actually started doing a column on Eastern Europe for the Guardian, and that sort of morphed into a tactics column.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

And then that sort of gradually morphed into more and more mainstream work for The Guardian, which I you know, I've I've had a contract at the Guardian for just the fifth year, I think. But it's an annual contract that has to be renewed every October, so it's it's not a staff job. And so, yeah, that's I got on the treadmill of doing books. That makes it sound slightly as if it's a chore, which it's not. Uh I was on the pathway of doing books, yeah. Which is a freelancer really handy because they basically yeah, a book's a bit like water, it just sort of fills up all the spaces in in your schedule. And and also it yeah, I mean my book on the World Cup's just come out, but off the back of that, I've had a load of work from the US because US newspapers are we want somebody to write about the World Cup who's not an American, yeah. Who should we get? Oh, this bloke seems to have some kind of expertise in the World Cup, we'll get him to do it. So just on a piece of Boston Globe and a couple of pieces of Bloomberg. Yeah, I've been interviewed in the LA Times and in the Washington Post while it still existed. Yes, just just snuck that in under the radar. So yeah, books are always in some ways a bit of a loss, lady. It's not in terms of in pure purely financial terms, it's not really worth the effort you put it in, the money you get out of it, but you get a load of indirect work off it. Yeah, and yeah, I think a book, maybe this is an old-fashioned way of thinking, but I think the books are the legacy, they're the things that you're proud of at the end of a career.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

So thinking about the totality of your career, then I want I want you to think about like what you think you have that others don't, you know, what skills or knowledge or character traits do you think have helped you to be successful that others may not have done?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Well, I think reading a lot of books, studying literature definitely helps with the writing. I think I I you know if you read enough and you're halfway competent, you will have a natural idea of how to turn a sentence. I also give you a range of reference. And I'm lucky as well, I think that you know I'm not sure I was ever a full-on believer, but I certainly had a Christian upbringing, and a lot of the early literature I was interested in, things like Paradise Lost, led me to investigate religion more. So I I've got a good grounding in the Bible. I mean, I'm I'm I'm this is a purely literary point, I'm not talking about this from any kind of spiritual point of view. But I mean, parts of the Bible are incredibly beautifully written, and it's a great the best bits are a masterpiece of brevity and succinctness. The lengthy descriptions of the interior furnishings of a tent to host the Ark of the Covenant, less so.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

But so are they are they are they well written or are they well translated?

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Well, that's a good question, and I uh yeah, uh I have not gone back to the original Greek, so I I I guess probably both, but the translation, absolutely, you have to give credit to. Um, no, that's that's a fair point. And I think the other thing, just let's be clear here. I am not comparing myself to Mike Atherton completely. But Mike Atherton was asked, and he was asked specifically about his innings and famous innings in Johannesburg where he bats for a day and a half to save the game, yeah. Um, against some incredibly good and hostile bowling. And it's one of the great rear-guard actions, and it's one of the great things about cricket that's you know, you can block and block and block to save a game, and that is in in many ways more heroic than blasting 50 or 20 balls. And he was asked why do you think it is that you've got this determination or this grit that means you succeed more than more talented players? And he's like, Because you're defining talent wrongly, you know, that there are many different types of talent, and playing a beautiful, fluid, aesthetically pleasing cover drive is great, but it doesn't make him more talented than the bloke can concentrate for nine hours. And I think stamina stickability is probably the thing I've got more than other people, uh, which is a tedious talent to have, but it does mean you maximise the other bits of talent you might have.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Some would say it is tedious. Can you can you think about an example of where that sort of stamina or stickability, as you call it, has helped you?

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Uh 35 out of 137 balls forton-esque.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

But you're right. I mean, that that in that innings, um maybe both innings, um, really sum up the the author of those innings um particularly well. That Mike Atherton was that sort of character, that sort of player, and that for that to be his kind of pinnacle pinnacle and um arguably the thing that he's best remembered for as a player, I think is perfectly in keeping.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

Um, I mean we should say he got 170 odd in our innings, didn't he?

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Um hundred and eighty odd, maybe. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

So he he got rather more than I did. I mean, I was very pleased to note that mine was the the slowest innings um in terms of runs per ball of any innings over 20 balls in the Essex League, the entire Essex League that season.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

It's true. Oh, that season. Um and what about professionally, Jonathan? What how how would you say that stickability has helped you professionally?

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Uh the capacity to work without having to sleep, sort of being prepared to put the hours in, uh being prepared to get up early to get work done, probably prioritizing the job a bit too much over other things.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Is that right about the not being it not not having to sleep?

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Tell us about that. Well, no, I do, I do have to sleep. I was gonna say uh but I I yeah, I I I can cope on for a couple of a couple of days I can cope on four hours of sleep a night.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Yeah. Um feel myself on coffee. Yeah. And yeah, if I have stuff to do, get it getting up at sort of five, four in the morning. And most Mondays I get up at four in the morning now. Do you? Just to get a I need to I have a uh newsletter due for the US. Yeah. Uh Guardian US. So if I get up at four, I can get that done yeah, before breakfast.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

That is a hell of a hell of a work ethic.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

And then yeah, what it means is if I've then got podcasts something to do on the Monday morning, I can be doing them by 8, 8, 15 without having to sort of break stride, really.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Do you want to tell us a bit about the various podcasts you do? Because uh they're all very good.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Oh, thank you. So yeah, I do it was what it was, which is a football history podcast, which I do with Rob Draper, and that is part of Gary Neville's overlap stable.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Oh yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

And that's a lot of fun to do. We just lost launched our Patreon, and that is is now going well, um, which is one funding model, and yeah, it seems to work. Uh uh, and but we also was um me and six other journalists plus a producer set up a podcast called Libro in well, almost exactly a year ago. Um and that is twice a week. It's one on an advertising model. I suspect we will move to a a members model at some point, and that fundamentally is just seven late to work in football journalism who feel there are big themes to be discussed that aren't being discussed in other podcasts. The the the the football podcast market is pretty saturated, yes, but that that is an obvious gap. But there's a lot of podcasts, some of which do it very well, it's not really criticizing them, but you know, go through the weekend's results and you know look ahead to the midweek games or or whatever. But in terms of actually grappling with with big themes, so yeah, I think arguably our best episode we've done was is the Premier League Margaret Thatcher's greatest legacy, right? Yeah, which whether you agree with that or not, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we end up sort of semi-agreeing with it, that it clearly grows from thatcherite principles and sort of lust for constant growth and your devil take the highmost economics. And and that was just a it was a an interesting discussion that I don't think you'd find in many other places. So yeah, uh some of it's a bit more mainstream. Uh, why is Thomas Frank been sacked and our Tottenham doomed?

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Um, but yeah, it's it's it's a mixture. So and it's just fun to do because you work with my mates.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

And it's seven of you, you say, is is the kind of the stable, is it?

SPEAKER_03 10:08

And then you have yeah, so it's three out of seven, and we've got producer as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah, yeah, okay, got you.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

And then the good thing is that I think I think the best podcasts, they well, maybe it's different when you're having guests on, but when it's a sort of core group of people, what you're looking for is something that sounds like really informed people in the pub. You're the kind of conversation you want to be part of, or you want an earwig on. And so what you want is that listeners feel like they're part of your circle, and therefore, you know, within reason, in jokes, and for yeah, this is obviously a term that's become slightly toxic in recent years, but but banter, uh, the ability to take the piss out of each other, yeah. People people relish that and relish being part of that.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Thinking back over your career again, I mean you are the hero of your own story, but every story has an anti-hero as well. I don't want you to name names necessarily unless you particularly want to, but can you think of people or things or prevailing ideas that have been barriers to your success that you've had to overcome?

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Well, I think there's a journalism clearly is going through a difficult period at the moment, and it feels like it has been for 20 odd years. People haven't quite worked out how to deal with the internet, and the way I dealt with it for a long time, and when I say a long time, I'd say probably up to about 20 years ago, is to try to sorry, up to about five years ago, was to try to ignore it and try to pretend the internet wasn't important, and uh you know internet journalists would be shut out of briefings and things, but that sort of protectionism just ultimately doesn't work, and yeah, there's been wave after wave of redundancy at uh yeah, major newspapers, uh not just in sports departments. It's a really difficult landscape, but at the same time, there are a lot of online avenues now that weren't there 25 years ago, just nobody's quite worked out how to use them. Uh so podcasts are part of that. Podcasts seem to be the one bit of the industry that's making money at the moment, and I think it's as simple as people are kind of forced to listen to at least the start of the adverts before they hit fast forward, whereas you can put your pop-up blocker on your on your website and never see it.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah, can you can you just expand on that point about no one's worked out how to use the internet? What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Well, so you know, newspapers are hitting bigger audiences than ever before and they're making less money from it than ever before. Oh, right. That internet advertising is just worth a lot less than the old newspaper advertising was worth.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

And if people so you know if you're the newspaper producer and you're not getting that ad revenue, and also your sales decline because everybody's getting it for free online, what are you doing? And people put up paywalls, but I mean, particularly with things like football, there's so much content out there. Yes, it's quite easy. So I don't really need to pay my five quid a month or whatever for to hear you know to read this writer. Um, I'd much rather read the free stuff over here. And you know, the the the sort of the I I think what we've seen in the in the internet era is what works is being an absolute mega massive supergiant like Amazon or being very niche. And the middle ground, which is to say all British newspapers, uh that they're not doing they're not sort of market dominant, you know, you're not so dominant that you have to use them, yes, but equally they're not supplying a niche where you have to use them because they're the only niche doing that. So there's there's an example. There was a journalist recently laid off by the Huddersfield Examiner, who was their only yeah, he was the he covered Huddersfield Town for them, and he's a very good journalist. He's called Stephen Chicken. He was very popular with Huddersfield fans, he seemed quite popular with the club, the club respected him and liked him, and he set up his own his own thing. I was about to say his own feed, but then chicken feed sounds that's what you should call it for sure. Um and I I don't want to speak of his filaments because I don't really know, but he he seems to be doing very, very well, yeah, because he's got a market that trusts him, and you know, he's the sort of the the conduit between the club and and the fan base. Yeah. He's doing the job local newspapers used to do, yeah, but he's just doing it alone rather than having the the framework and structure of the newspaper behind him, sort of direct to market kind of stuff, which is I think is fine in many ways good until the point comes at which he has a legal problem, and then I'm not sure what happens.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Okay, and hopefully he doesn't have a legal problem. But you know, you can be a very good journalist and have legal problems that are not your fault.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a note of caution there.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Oh, so so the the point I was I was sort of very slowly getting there was the the thing I've sort of had to I I find myself opposing all the time is the idea that people only want bite size.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Oh, yeah, we can't have a thousand word piece, cut it down to three hundreds. I see, yeah. And look, then for there may be some logic to that on some area of the market, yeah, but I I think it massively simplifies oversimplifies and in many ways disrespects the reader. Yeah. And the the greatest example of this is the rest of history.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

And Tony Pastor, the you know, who he runs that, he was interviewed, I don't know, was it last week or week before? And he made this point that everybody from the BBC downwards has been dumbing down history or been they've been doing history in a very preachy way, which is another, yeah, one of the reasons why I got quite disillusioned with academia that the whole thing seemed to be the whole point of reading books seemed to be so you could tell the patriarch it was terrible. Um don't worry, I'm not one of these anti-woke people, but I just don't how much of preachiness is good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, maybe one of the reasons why people are stopping doing a subject is because they've been told they're terrible people, and that's quite a turnoff for quite a lot of people. Maybe just reading books and sort of enjoy it and ask what it's saying. You don't have to sort of squeeze it through the cookie cutter of some ism.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

And yeah, so the rest history is massively popular, yes, and it does six hours selling the story of the fall of the Incas. I mean, yeah, yeah. People want that. People are not stupid, people have not got thicker, their attention spans may in some cases have got shorter, but not everybody. And there is an audience that's just not being served by very preachy history programs or you know, other humanities, or by yeah, dumbed down bite-sized nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Um and a lot of the stuff I guess you've done in in the second half of your career, particularly, speaks to that um long form sensibility, if you like.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Yeah, yeah, we we set up Blizzard in 2011, which was specifically to do long form, and that that was yeah, I'd there's a there's a South African footballer called uh Steve McCourney, who uh grew up under apartheid, he got a deal at Coventry City, uh came over to Coventry, Coventry with a third division team in those days, and he he didn't do particularly well in Britain, uh moved to the Netherlands, ended up moving to Canada. Very bright bloke. He ended he becomes a professor of I can't remember, he's either psychology or psychiatry in Canada, then moves down to New York, and while he's in New York, he he gets divorced, it's pretty acrimonious, and acid is thrown in the face of both his wife and his wife's lawyer. Oh, Jesus. And he ends up being jailed for 11 years for it. Now, I I'm not presuming to say I know whether he's guilty or not. However, there is correspondence between Boss, the Bureau of State Security in South Africa, and the CIA, where boss say, Can you take this guy down? He's a really annoying pro-ANC activist. So, at the very least, that's interesting. I'd interviewed him just before the 2010 World Cup, which is obviously in South Africa, which is why he was the first black South African to play professionally in the year. But I interviewed him, he was struggling with Alzheimer's, it wasn't a great interview, but still there's enough there, and he'd spoken enough before, and I could it's a good story, it's an interesting story, but not many people know. And went to a leading British football magazine who said, No, we're we're only on the positive stories ahead of South Africa World Cup. Christ, I mean that's not journalism, that's I don't know what it is, but it's not journalism. Yeah, and I ended putting it in the FT, and that was fine, but the FT couldn't really give me the space that the story deserved. You had a story to be told over two thousand, two and a half thousand words, and they gave me 1400 or something. So it's fine. But it was like, why is it not a place for these stories? Yes, if surely people are interested in in this and other stories of that type. So I spoke to a lot of other journalists, and they were like, Yes, yeah, you're you're right. We we've all got our version of that story. So I was like, well, why don't we set up our own magazine? Why don't we cut out the middleman? You we and we do it on a profit share, and if we make no money, we make no money. But if we make you know, if we make if we make a profit, we divide it equally between or divide it pro rata between us. Yeah, and so that was how Blizzard began. And unfortunately, pretty quickly everybody realised I was right, and um I'm almost certain I had nothing to do with it. But long form then suddenly becomes a thing, and we've lost our USP, which is quite annoying, yeah. Uh, but it is good that long form is now seemingly bad, at least to a to an extent.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

So, yeah, conversely then, who are the people and groups that have helped you along the way? Who who have been your allies, would you say?

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Oh, they've been very fortunate that the the Guardian have been very supportive. Um, generally, just I mean, the Guardian they're quite hands-off in air editing, so I'll just let you do what you want, essentially. Right. And they they they're a very good sports to work for. And I've worked now 24 years since my first piece for them. Right. Uh, so that that's been good. My agents have been very helpful. Uh various publishers have at times been helpful, at times been less helpful. But actually, it's it's other journalists, it's a camaraderie of the pack. And the pack used to be a really sort of hostile, voracious beast. Yes. So and again, I'm glad I saw the start of that. Though I was very much on the outside of the pack in those days, yeah. It's a much gentler beast these days, but still, yeah, the the especially things like World Cups, major tournaments. Major tournaments are the most fun thing you do because you have a month, yeah, combinations like two and a half, three weeks. I only go for the knockouts. Euros four weeks, World Cup five or six weeks.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

Where you go to a country where you're totally absorbed in the tournament, where you're not thinking about anything apart from the tournament, where you're spewing out work for 14, 16 hours a day, seven days a week, you're constantly on the move, constantly traveling, you're eating crap, you feel terrible. And the only thing keeping you going is adrenaline. Yeah. And you really need your mates there.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

And those occasional nights where none or yeah, a couple of you maybe are working and the rest aren't, and you can go to a bar or go to a restaurant and watch a game together. Yeah, that's what the job's all about. Yeah. And having sort of four or five beers. And those conversations you have then, they they're great for providing ideas. Yeah. And it's a bit like being back at university, depending how dedicated you were to your course. Um to be clear, I was not working 16 hours a day, seven days a week at university. Yeah. But it it's sort of everybody in it together. Yeah. And when you get a big story breaks, um, trying to think of an example of this. Uh the Louis Suarez biting issue with Giorgio Uccellini. And suddenly everybody, or or more recently, Varga, the Hungarian forward, who had that terrible head injury in Scotland in the Euros. And and so you suddenly have people like, okay, I know this book, I'll call him, you call him, you get in touch with the the Scottish FA for comment.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

And everybody is Pooling everything and you're working together and it's under high pressure. And then the Christian Erickson cardiac arrest. I mean, these are all terrible things, obviously, but the or the um in your undead, the couple nations, how when was that 2021 when there was the eight people killed in the crush and everybody on the phone, everybody googling, everybody just trying to get more information and pooling it, often sitting around a table in a bar, or in uh 2015 in uh Mulabo in Equatorial Guinea, when there's the riot. I think you you maybe you may maybe uh remember this because the helicopter that the government used to clear the rioters had been bought from Suffolk Police, and so you can see property of Suffolk Police still still written in that.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

You do not remember that.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

No. Well, I was sitting with with uh Nick Ames from the Guardian, who is also an Ipswich fan. Yeah. And um we see the helicopter come down, and we're uh everybody's running away from it. Uh it gets really low over the over the standard, there's paper flying up, and everybody's running. And Nick's going, I I think that's the logo of Suffolk Police. I think I think it's a Suffolk Police helicopter. And sure enough, a bit of Googling finds yeah, Suffolk Police have have sold a helicopter to the uh government agitorial game.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

As you do. I'd love to hear more about because because it's really interesting what you say there about that. Where you're like at major tournaments, you're there with your with your comrades, you you pool your resources when it comes to certain stories. And I found that really fascinating because from the outside it what you do can look like a pretty individualistic pursuit, can't it? You know, you you sit there for hours, you write stuff you in your own little bubble. So to hear you talk in such fond terms about the group or the pack, as you call it, is um it's kind of really interesting. How many of those major tournaments have you done, by the way? Do you know?

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Well, I've done 13 cups of nations. Uh I've done six, ten, fourteen, uh, five world cups, twelve, sixteen, twenty two, six euros. Wow. Uh two Cups of America, an Asian Cup, an under 20 World Cup. I don't know how many that is, but that's about it's about 13 plus six plus five plus thirteen plus six. Uh 28, I think. 28.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Amazing. And you got one coming up this year, of course. So what's what's the plan there?

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Uh I'm gonna be based in Mexico City to start with.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

So I'll do I think you can do nine games in Mexico. Was it like um so I think there's 11 group games in Mexico, I think. But you can only do nine of them because uh some of them on the same day. Yeah, so uh I'll yeah, I'll be darting about Guadalajara, Monterey, Mexico City. Not not that much time in Guadalajara, thankfully, given given the narco-violence there.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Oh, indeed, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

After the uh for the killing of El El Mencho, yeah. And I have to say, having seen the hotels, the one in Guadalajara is significantly the least attractive. So I'm quite glad. But Guadalajara is a city, I I kind of have been lobbying for four years to get the get the garden to let me do Mexico.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

Just because I wanted to a game Guadalajara, because I think that's the most world cuppy of all cities.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Where Brazil beat England 1-0 in 1970, and where France beat Brazil in on penalties in the quarter final in 1986, two of the greatest World Cup games in a city that let's be honest, we would not have heard of if it hadn't been for those games.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Was that the pitch in '86, the one that had the kind of a shadow of the flooding. No, that's Azteca. The big spiders in Azteca, yeah. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

But looking forward to going there, I've never been there, and that's obviously another.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Is it the only stadium to host two World Cup finals? The Olympico in Rome, did that host in 34?

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Marican R obviously hosted in 14 and 50 was the final game, but not the final. Yeah. Uh but anyway, our second two World Cup finals. Um the Olympic in Rome posted in 34.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

And so you've you said you you've never been to Mexico, is that right?

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Never been to Mexico, so looking forward to that. And one of the things you've got to kind of force yourself to do it because you feel a bit guilty doing it. I'm I'm gonna force myself to do some tourism. I just try and do an hour or two a day. Uh, when certainly non-travel days and non-match days, partly because I think you your brain just needs a rest, it just needs things to spark off. Uh, partly because it it actually provides a bit of context and content.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

And the problem is, and I found this in uh in Brazil, particularly in 2014. I was like, Oh, I'm really busy early in the tournament. Uh, but yeah, when the game's thin out towards the end, I'll have time to to go and see you know Christ the Redeemer and you know chuckle ofe and everything. Trick is by the end of the tournament, you're so exhausted. If you've got any time off, all you want to do is lie on your bed and look at the ceiling.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. And so, apart from the World Cup, obviously big thing. Uh, what what's coming next for Jonathan Wilson? What's next in the near or the far future for you?

SPEAKER_03 27:01

So I've got a documentary coming out soon-ish. Um, certainly an Argentinian Netflix. I don't know if that means it's an all Netflix or not. I I don't really understand how these things work. Okay, but it's a documentary on River Plate going from relegation in 2011 to promotion, winning the league, winning the Libertadores in 2015, and then the Libertadores in 2019 when they beat Bocker in the final in the game that famously didn't happen at El Monumental and has to be moved to Madrid. Okay, which um yeah, symbolically to take a tournament called the Libertadores, yes, and then play it in the old colonial metropole is uh problematic. Yes, yes, I think I think that's probably the word. Yeah, so yeah, we we filmed all that back here in October, November time.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Um was that was that filming in Argentina?

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Yeah, I did a little bit in London, did a bit in London actually in January, but uh yeah, mostly over in in Buenos Aires and Puerto Madero, um back in October, November. So and River gave us great access. Got a lot of time with uh Hoggy Brito, who's at the time was the president, he stood down before the elections. Uh and D'Nofrio, the the guy he succeeded as president, and then Francis Scoli, who's the sporting director at River, who was a huge hero of mine in the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

So one of those really rare occasions where I got got really nervous before an interview. Uh which these days I'm sort of quite blasy about it because it's part of the job.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

But so yeah, I could interview Erling Holland tomorrow and it wouldn't really bother me. Yeah, obviously I'd I'd prepare for it properly.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

And there'd be a little bit of adrenaline, but it I wouldn't I wouldn't sort of be struggling to sleep the night before. Whereas I don't know, I had this had this terror that Enzo Francescoli would would not think I was a good bloke. Oh and I mean, I mean, I don't think I did anything terrible in the interview, so hopefully, yeah, we we haven't we haven't burned our bridges.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Maybe you should meet your heroes then. That's great. And that's uh that's exciting. What's uh what's the documentary called?

SPEAKER_03 29:00

Uh it's called The Curious Case of Riverplate.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Right, and we can find it on Argentinian Netflix. Yes, and hopefully more widely than that.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Yeah, there's um I should stress at this point that I was I was asked to try and play a confused Englishman as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

So if I come across as an overly doddery confused Englishman, and so there's a bit where I I I mean this is incredible access. I mean, yeah, I try to do this for years and they've not been able to, but before every game in Argentina, the the barra, the the the ultra groups, yeah, they do the sort of march into the stadium. Yeah, and so the behind one of the goals on the terrace, the the a space will be left for them.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

And I I was I joined in this march. Oh wow, uh with with cameras and everything. And I'd been told you'd dress as dressed in the most English way possible. So I was wearing an Oxford shirt and a nice overcoat. And um and I was like, are you sure this is safe? And then no, no, it's all been agreed. And every now and again, somebody would come up to me and like, what are you doing? Like you can't be here, and then yeah, somebody would would step and go, Oh no, it's all been it's all been sorted out with. Yeah, and then there'd be sort of very masculine handshakes and hugs, yeah, yeah. And there's one bloke I was saying, this very masculine handshake with he had a tattoo on his cheek, and it was a coffin with a number eight in it.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Bloody hell.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

And I was like, I'm not sure what that can mean, other than he's killed eight people, right? But then I thought, at least that probably means he's stopped.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

You don't want to be having to change your tattoo on your face. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

Because 18 you can probably change it to, but like you're not making that into a nine, or you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Bloody hell. Um, so thinking about your your life outside of work then, and we'll take as Red, your lovely wife, friends and families, other loved ones, we'll take it as Red, they're important to you. What what other things are important in your life, your kind of passions and hobbies and interests?

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Well, I I used to play a lot of cricket, I've had a load of problems with my shoulders, so I've had to give that up. Um and actually the weird thing, I'd I'd been a mediocre off spinner.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

So I I'd normally I'd sort of bowl my overs and I'd bat down at sort of seven or eight.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

And then had the first surgery on my shoulder. When was that? 2000, 2019, I think. Yeah. Yeah, 2019. And as I was coming back from that, I couldn't bowl.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

So I got pushed up to open the batting.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

And turns out better opening batter than I ever was off spinner, which is a little bit frustrating. And so then it was kind of you kind of I started scoring 50s, which I'd never done before.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Uh yeah, 44 and I would have been my top score for a long, long time. And then I yeah, you got my first 50, got up to 70 odd, got up to 70 odd again. I was like, scoring a century at that level, yeah, is quite difficult, not because the bowling's great or anything, yeah, but probably because the pitches are terrible. So you're always waiting for the ball that just does something stupid you can't do anything about. Yeah, but also the games aren't very long.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Given I'm not blasting 100 or 30 balls, I'm just not the type of player. No, I need to open the batting and I need to be able to have like a you know nice long slow innings.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

And then it happened on my 46th birthday. Wow. We were we were second bottom of the league, we're playing second top of the league. Happily it was Eid, so their three best bowlers weren't available to them. And we we bowled them out for 194, which I thought we'd done pretty well. I think it was a good pitch, as it and we bowled pretty well. 40 over game? No, it was a timed game. Oh, okay. So I think it was maximum 90 overs in a day. So you could bat up to 40. Sorry, bat up to 46.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

And yeah, we we knocked it off non-down. And uh as you know, the numbers 37 and 73 are some couple of years, and are therefore very important to Sutherland fans.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

I brought up my 50 of 37 balls, and I thought I've got my century of 73 balls. That's pretty quick. Yeah, and um I then had to slow down because the other opener never scored a 50, so I had to slow down to let him get his 50. And yeah, we won it by 10 wickets, and it was the most sort of fabulous. It was weirdly anticlimactic because it was such an easy win. And I then found that my my sort of that scoring a century had been my real sort of drive to keep playing and keep practicing. And so I don't think I've even played 10 games since. So in my next innings, I went out and I smashed 63 really quickly, play off like 30 odd balls because of playing with complete freedom. Yeah. And then yeah, sunk back to sort of mean level um of sort of scratching out 20s and 25s. Um I found that that actually wasn't enjoying as much as I had, and then with all the shoulder problems, um, I've sort of basically given up. But um you used to play a lot of hockey as well, didn't you? Yeah, I had to give that up because of a hip injury, but yeah, I played a lot of hockey. Um when I gave that up in my mid-30s. Uh I know when I gave up football. The very day. Yeah, that was during the World Cup in 2006. Uh just trying to think which game it was. And we I played for the England media team against the uh British Parliament.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

In I think in it's either Cologne or Frankfurt, those two stadiums are really similar. It's quite hard to separate in my head. Yeah, certainly on the inside, they're quite similar. And I I mean I'm very right-footed, but I was playing left back.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

And we won 4-0. I set up the third goal. They had for some reason they had James Cracknell, the Olympic rower in goal. He is not a man, yeah. He definitely rowing was definitely his sport. Yes. Bad at all sports, I suggest, James Cracknell. Yes, very good at uh propelling a boat in a straight line, but um, yeah, not a ball man. And it was just a really weirdly violent game. Oh, and I was sort of space spent the whole game trying to avoid the fights. Yeah. I don't understand why this is so touchy. I'm really enjoying this. Yeah, and so I came out with the chapter. I I'm not really sure. I'm not sure why I play. I really didn't have much fun there. Um, so I'll just stop. And I have I I stopped.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

So age 30, uh, I retired from football. Hung your boots up, like uh like Eric Cantor.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Very similar in so many ways.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Yeah, so basically Dickens and Canton, I'll put them together. This is what you get.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

That's it. That's that's that'll be written on your gravestone. Um, finally, finally, Jonathan, if you wouldn't mind. We've spoken a bit about this and you've mentioned a few podcasts, but since we are on a podcast, I'd like you to give us one podcast recommendation, please. One that I'm not on. That can be one that you're on. Wait, maybe one that you're on and one that you're not on.

SPEAKER_03 35:39

Like obviously, I can't choose between the two that I'm on. So libero, yeah, uh, if you want sort of what I like to think of is intelligent, informed, in-depth discussion on big issues in football. Yeah, it was what it was, if you want football history. Yeah. And then probably the podcast I look I'm gonna give you two for this as well, but two I look forward to the most.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

And I I would have said rest is history, but but Dominic was very rude about our title for it was what it was. So, you know, he's not getting this one.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

I think it's a good title.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

I think it's respect. You're wrong.

unknown 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Um so football cliches podcasts, okay. Um, which is but yeah, they're they're they're they made somebody do it, but they who are they? So it's run by Adam Hurry and then Dave Hawker, Charlie Eccleshair, Nick Miller, other sort of three uh main other people on it. Yeah, and they it used to be on the athletic, and some reason the athletic stopped it. I mean, but which seems like I'm madness well, seriously, reasons, but anyway, they've gone from strength to strength as part of Limica's stable, and they're just very good at sort of picking apart oddities and quirks of how we look at football. It's not it's not it's not about picking apart you know, sick as a power and things, it's it's more nuanced than that.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

So that's football cliches.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

Football cliches, yes. It's it's funny, it's informed, it's smart. I mean, you maybe have to be football obsessive to enjoy it, but yeah, many people are. And then the other one is uh Sherlock and Co. which is a it's sort of a Sherlock Holmes stories done as if it was a true crime podcast. Okay, uh right, right. Uh and that's it's it comes out once a week, it's it's only 30, 35 minutes long. Yeah. And it's sort of, you know, it's all the sort of mystery elements of the Sherlock Holmes stuff. Yeah. But it's quite funny as well because of because of the way they've they've updated it.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Very good. Well, thank you so much, and thank you even more for being so generous with your time and for telling us lovely stories about your fascinating and brilliant career.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

You're very welcome. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Join me next time on the Amber Monument when we'll be hearing another story of another remarkable career. Until then, day Amber.