Philippa Roberts

Philippa is the co-founder of PLH Research and co-author of Inside Her Pretty Little Head and Brandsplaining. Here, she talks about "larky" school days; fulfilling the scripted role of "the good girl"; the lack of understanding of female audiences in advertising; work for the Conservative Party and Tesco; the magic of partnership and "the power of pairs"; celebrating "quiet virtues"; and taking on "difficult projects for nice people".

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Amber Moment, a podcast that tells stories of remarkable careers. My name's Paul Howard. Joining me today is Philipper Roberts. Philipper is the co-founder of PLH Research, the UK's leading research agency specialising in female consumer audiences. Alongside business partner Jane, she published the book Inside Her Pretty Little Head with the intention of helping the marketing world to understand female audiences better. Philipper and Jane have been described as the pioneers of marketing to women, and a second book, Brand Splaining, followed in 2021. Philippa, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

I feel so well. Thank you so much for having me on. This is really good.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Genuinely my pleasure. So look, what I'm trying to do here on the Amber moment, as you may know, is just to tell some great stories of people and their and their remarkable careers, which yours undoubtedly is in my eyes. And you know, every story starts somewhere. Every leading character, which of course, for the purposes of today is your good self, has uh has his or her origin story. So I'd love it, Philippa, if you wouldn't mind, if if we could start by hearing a bit about your early days, your childhood, your upbringing, education, and any early influences.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yes, of course. Well, my my childhood was was so amazingly lovely and lucky. And I I we I um I read this thing the other day that that said that people who who say that they had really lovely childhoods are really avoidant. But I genuinely don't think I don't think I am, because it really, I mean, it was one of those those really nice 1970s childhoods where where everyone was just kind of left to go out into the garden and and um get on with it. And my dad was a vet, so we lived in we lived in the countryside, and my dad was a vet, and so he had that really nice sort of blend of he was really he's such a kind person, but he's sort of the kind the kind blended with the medical sort of thing. And then and then my mum was an amazing person, she's really one of those people, really accomplished people who could do who could do more or less anything, but incredibly sort of just did it without any thinking that there was anything to it or thinking anything about it from her point of view. So she was just like she was like a really musical, amazing cook, and just very creative, and she was a teacher and she read a lot and she went to the you know brilliant to the theatre. She just did loads and loads of things, but just did them completely naturally and without any sort of showiness at all. Yeah, so she was and and just like the sort of person who's really consistently caring and engaging. So that was incredibly nice. And then there then there were there were four of us, four children, yeah. Uh of which I was the second. And and I really believe in that thing about you know your your place in the family and what what place you know, what order you are, yeah, um, and the sort of script that that means that you you adopt. And so in our family, there was my sister who was the oldest, and she was classic oldest, boldest, the sort of really daring, yes, um, adventurous one who pioneered everything. Then the then there was me, then there was my brother Peter, then there was my youngest one, brother, who was the sort of lovely angel who everyone loved and could do no wrong to me. And so that meant that that um I think that meant that my my place in the family was to be the the sort of good one. And yeah. And so that the that was my that was my little script. And and so that's what that's what that's what I I was. I was a sort of a very um good girl. I was quite quite shy. And so I suppose a lot of my childhood was about coming out of my shell, but I guess that's the the definition of childhood, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 4:13

But yeah. Tell us about your your school days then, if you don't mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I went I went to two really nice schools. Yeah. They weren't, they were, they were the most unacademic schools, right? Really. But they were amazing they were just really larky places. At one school it was the sort of pupils against the teachers almost. It's really, really traditional, really old school in every sense of the word, girls' school, where the girls basically ganged up on the ganged up on the teachers, and it was it was a whole the basic. We just spent our whole time trying to um you know outwit them. Um I had no idea this was a tradition in girls' schools, but yeah, we have I don't think it is now, I'm sure it isn't now, but it definitely was then. So, yes, so that was that just felt like a really, really, yeah, basically very larky experience. And and then I went to a boys' school in the sixth form, and that too was just seemed to be like a massive laugh. So oh, you know, and I suppose that we I think I mean, I do think now when I think about childhoods, I feel so sorry for children, all their you know, how tightly managed everything is, and how parenting in inverted commas has become this professional thing, and and everything is orchestrated and organized, and and and mine was basically the opposite of that. It was Larky and and uh Larky and really lovely, and uh sort of with a t with a a tinge of uh as it always is in the 1970s, of sort of benign neglect going on.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Visions of you in your bucolic idyll just roaming free across these incredibly verdant fields and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Was it like that? Well, it was slightly it was slightly like that, at the uh definitely at the best of times.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

It was incredibly sort of free range, and I definitely never felt any any sort of pressure about anything, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Which part of the world was this again? Where did you grow up?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Oh, it was in in a place called Marmsbury, which is in Wiltshire.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Lovely Wiltshire, of course. Yes, yes, yes. Of course. So you went to two I love your larkey school, couple of larky schools.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

You know, learning to uh to have a good time is as much part of childhood and as learning to work hard or whatever. So I went back I went to these two really larky schools, and it was quite in a way it's quite lucky because they were both pretty unacademic, but I was I I was quite um quite I've always really liked working hard, going back to that thing about the script and my place in the family. So I so I I was quite a hard worker, but and and I and I really liked and I still really do like uh working hard. So I I sort of I it was quite that good thing where I was I was sort of at the top of the class, yes, just because the rest of the class was a bit yeah, yeah. But so yeah, so it stood me, yeah. I really enjoyed both of the both schools really a lot.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

I'm really intrigued to to hear uh that your your term the script about being that second child, and therefore the script is written. Yeah, I mean, genuinely, how much would you ascribe your kind of work ethic to that your place in the family?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

I think quite a lot, actually, because I think my it was that was definitely the case that my sister was this really confident, very kind of gregarious. She still is still like this really competent, really gregarious, gen, generous, of outgoing person. And then my brothers had their their roles. So really the the going to the the sort of place of the good girl was was really the the the best place for me to to you know to carve out something of my own. And and actually when we when we and I'm not doing this as a clumsy segue into my own work, but um when we when we um when we um Jane and I rate brand splaining, one of the one of the big sort of themes in that is about is about the good girl and the sort of cultural pressure on women, yeah, and particularly in the 20th century to behave in ways that are really sort of pleasing and industrious and supporting and supportive and and not not to create waves and to to be obliging and all those things. And I think probably a lot of that was was what was what I what I was was like or or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

And then and then so from there on to university and and beyond, can you tell us maybe maybe about how how that took you towards your career?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Yep. Um I was uh yes, I went to Cambridge, yeah, and and that was quite that was uh quite interesting because when I got there, I I sort of got there and I sort of immediately realised that I was quite out of my depth and that everyone else was way more accomplished and brainy and had done a lot more work probably than I had. And I I had this, I think I might have told you this story before, but I had this terrible thing in my like my first couple of weeks I was doing history and I um and it it was they had to write about it's medieval history. So we and so it was about it was about the Magna Carta. And so and I and I wrote about it, and I wrote Magna Carta and I spelt it wrong. I spelt it M-H-E-N-E-R.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Oh right.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Like the cyber like the cyber, it's had a successful because you remember that's when Magnus first launched. Tremendous, I thought it was like Magnus. So I quickly realized that I came back with these big red loops all over it.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

I quickly realized obviously I needed to do a bit more, um, a bit more work. And so I had a br you know, and it was a really brilliant, brilliant three years, but I did I did work have to have to work pretty hard to to keep up and yeah, not to really fall behind, keep or catch up and then keep up.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

And tell me a bit about how that was it was was a bridge towards what became your career then.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

What what early sort of um so so so that so no, it was all it was all quite haphazard um uh in in the way that these things often are. So it was literally was nothing more really than it bec it was whatever it was, 1980 mid 80s, and and advertising was like you know at the height of its powers in those days, and certainly at the height of its kind of glamorous lurking around best. So I uh my friends and I, you know, we all kind of thought, oh, something like a career and something like that would be really good. Yeah. And and so yes, I just applied and I got and I got I got a nice well, one of those nice milk ram places. Yes. So so that's yeah, that's how I started. I really had no real idea of what I was getting, what I was getting into at all other, and then I just thought that this sounds like it's a good combination of of what I've got.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

That's true of many people who start their career at advertising, you just sort of fall into it, don't you? Um so then can can you give us maybe a little a little potted synopsis of of your career? Like, you know, yeah so for one one thing I like asking people actually is yeah from from your early days in advertising. Yeah, were you were you aware of of having something like a plan in your head of of wanting to get somewhere of having some sort of mission or anything like that? Did you like it? No, it's funny isn't it? What drove you?

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Yeah, it's it's it's uh it's well I just I I just really really enjoyed it and I really really enjoyed the and the the fact that you know where we where we were well where we both worked at BMP, you know, was was quite it was a brilliant combination, wasn't it? Of really good, really really really demanding and really brilliant, fun and amazing people all around. And so I just uh so I I really really just enjoyed enjoyed it on ever on every level, so intellectual, creatively, socially, all all of it. And so I didn't have a plan at all. I just was really enjoying it and really liking making progress in it. And I think I think it was only sort of it only later when Jane and I worked together, who you know, Jane Jane, who, as you said at the beginning, I now work with and founded PLH with. And it was so it was only sort of right at the sort of latter part of my time in advertising agencies that we began to notice this thing about the female audiences being a less understood than male audiences, and that a lot of the all adult assumptions that were happening at the time about actually m masculine assumptions dressed up as all adult assumptions, and that the the the you know, all the briefs in the that were given the most creative energies and interest were all in masculine categories of you know, cars and beer and electronics and all those things. And and and that all the everyone in the creative department more or less was male, and you know, all those kind of biases and and blind spots that we hadn't I hadn't really noticed for for a a lot of time began to sort of slowly dawn on on Jane and I at the at the at the same time. And so I suppose then we then we we did then have a plan, if if you could could even call it a plan, a loose kind of idea that that it would be a good a good idea at some at some point to kind of get a specialism in that but in that place.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

We'll definitely come back to your plan. I want to hear more about it. But just as you're talking there, and I was thinking the the the famous research groups that advertising is famous for, and quite often it would be spoken about oh, we need to go and speak to some housewives in Doncaster or whatever it was. I know so there was quite a lot of that going on for certain brands, wasn't it wasn't there? Talk to me a bit about that, and and you've talked about this kind of huge gap in in the whole industry, yeah. So that's I mean, even that was talked about in fairly derogatory terms, isn't it? Housewives in Doncaster. I know, the word housewives, even.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah, yeah. And and media in lots of media is still sold and bought like that, uh, you know, under as as housewives with kids, whatever. But I think uh the the best way to describe it, and it's not my words, but they're quite good words, you know, is it was is the idea of the male glance as opposed to the male gaze. And I suppose the male gaze, you know, this sort of objectification of women and sexualization of women is very obvious. But the male glance is is what we encountered a lot then and characters encounter a lot now, which is this very sort of curse and cursory, yes, quite dismissive oh, we better ask, you know, we better look into what they want type type approach to things, where actually you know there isn't a tremendous sort of appetite for really understanding the audience in in in depth and detail, but it's more perfunctory and and where there isn't often there isn't just a you know the deep levels of interest that that you find when people are looking at categories that aren't domestic, that aren't to do you know that aren't uh have to feel like they've got much more glamour and and interest. So yeah, so so so our sort of uh intention and was was to prov you know to put to provide some and this is what we still try to do, to provide uh you know really exciting and interesting perspectives on uh women and how they see the world and their hopes and ambitions, and to do that in a way that that is is genuinely uh stimulating and interesting.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

And yeah. So talk to me a little bit more then. So you you and Jane almost from what you're saying, sort of simultaneously discover this huge gap. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in a very derogatory way of going about the so you sort of coalesce around that at that point, and then and then you form this plan. Talk to me more about the plan and how you got to where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Oh well, again, the plan was the plan is probably too strong away, but we we got and it's it's amazing that this happened when I look back on it, but we got commissioned to write this this book about marketing to women. And so we left our jobs and and wrote the book. Yes, and and uh and we and neither of us really could kind of I mean we were pleased about doing it and really enjoying doing it, but we and we thought, oh, we'll do we'll uh set up uh an agency on the basis of having got this expertise and having set out some new models and ways of looking at things and bringing because there's quite a lot of stuff in the academic world at that time about different you know decision-making preferences and styles, and yeah, it was there was a much more open kind of discourse around masculinity and femininity, suddenly. So there was quite a lot of stuff in the academic world that we could bring to the subject, and and and and yeah, so we so we yeah, pulled pulled this this, wrote this book together, and it got published in it, and it was really well received, I think you know, largely because no one had really looked through that lens before. Because it was a good idea, yeah, and and and so then we yeah, so then we had a uh had a really great time going around promoting the book, but also the book was getting quite a lot of interest from from clients who and at the time, and this is still kind of largely the case, but it was largely the case then that it was mostly men who were mostly in in charge most of the time, and they mostly the the ones that came to us of recognized that they have probably had blind spots and biases in the way their companies were arranged and thought, and the systems that they employed and the way they they viewed the audience, and and yeah, so we got so from quite early on, actually, we we were lucky enough to have get to have lots of interest in what we what we were doing.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

And do you remember sort of uh to use one of the phrases you used a minute ago? How much of that do you think was genuine interest and a genuine desire to do things better? And how much of it do you think might have been to do with the male glance?

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Um I think probably most of it was about uh people wanting to do things better.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

That's good to hear.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Um, yeah, I I I mean, some of some of it was, oh, can you, you know, go on this panel and be the woman on the panel, or can you come and talk at the conference? And and some of the stuff that came out of the more corporate culture stuff sometimes felt a bit uh box ticky. But the consumer stuff, the consumer stuff always felt always felt really uh qu quite heartfelt, and and that the you know, based on recognition that there was a need to understand it better and there was an opportunity in doing it better. So what wasn't it wasn't really it was I suppose it wasn't really political in that in that sense, it was it was just oh here's our here's our audience. We're probably underserving them by under understanding them. Here's some people who've got some new ways of looking at it. Let's let's see how we get on.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

And can can you tell me a bit about some of your sort of early victories in that in that area then? Can you remember any particular stories, any particular clients or any particular brands where it it really sort of went, oh yeah, that's that's what I'm talking about. That's that's a great um you've you know you you've sort of got the most out of this and a great sort of execution of it, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, oh yeah. Well we had um one of our one of our first uh clients was the Conservative Party.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

And um and that was really like a ri that was such a amazingly fascinating piece of work because obviously the all the all that uh bias is is incredibly strong and and uh you know almost sort of 18th century in some of the ways in which they uh viewed the female voters and certainly the way that the the the commons and the parties get run. So that was that was a sort of an amazing first project, really. And helped inform actually what turned out to be a massive call de Casak, but it was at the time when the two we remember when the conservatives sort of realized they were the nasty party, or so if they were the nasty party, and then Dave Dave Cameron did the compassionate conservatism, which was obviously their effort to to bring in some bring in more humanity and empathy and understanding uh to the thing. So we did a lot of work on that project, which was which was uh both amusing and uh and uh brilliant. We did uh loads of work for Tesco at the time.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

And they they were they were really they really understood the thing about organizations. It can get so uh systematic in the way in which they operate, and particularly a massive operation like that, that it can become almost like a you know, like a machine and devoid of of human humanity almost. And so they were but they were always incredibly interested in in our our work. work and and hopefully we helped them quite quite a lot at that time with helping them understand their audiences and and be less machine like in the way in which in which they worked.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

And what was what were some of the outputs of of of that thinking and and you know the using your tools if you if you like what what did they do differently?

SPEAKER_01 22:25

So um well most of our our findings are the most of the work that we do is strategic. So for so for them we helped them with segmentation we helped them redesign the value their value range which at the time was sort of very dismissive of of you know you know the execution of that range was very dismissive of of low value women as I think they may have been called. Excellent um and we helped them with lots of yeah lots of stuff around the sort of in-store experience and trying to make that less clinical and cold and bright light lighty and sort of masculine the way in which it all got operated. So yes so yeah lots and lots of lots of stuff which was yes but all came back to this idea of trying to put a bit of a mind into the machine of a of a giant giant corporation.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

But I should imagine that work had an enormous commercial benefit for them as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah I mean I think that they were they certainly were very appreciative of it and and pleased about it and it was the that time when they had that massive sort of surge of of success and kind of became the number one grosser and all of those things. I mean that was certainly wasn't down to us by any means but anyway it was a nice to be part of that of course journey. And what the other the other thing that was happened with with pl which has been brilliant is that we have had these incredibly supportive clients who have sort of over the whole time really that we've been working have seen the sort of benefit of the way that we look at market and have have gone with us to and bought us with them on their on their different journeys so there's a a really amazing client of ours called Leonie Foster who we first met at Tesco when she was sort of starting out and we were starting out and she was very successful at Tesco and then she went to Dunm and now she's the chief operating officer at Selfridges but she's always like she's you know she's always been like a really big fan of our work and has always been you know given us these really lovely projects and breaks really and that's been and then we put the we have another really lovely guy um at a company called Born Leisure called John Dunford was always you know again really supportive of what we did and so we so we've had these but these very nice kind of champions of our yes of our work. They're often women and they can often see in their businesses that the audience is misunderstood or underunderstood and culturally the way decisions get made doesn't perhaps give them yeah that give the audience um sufficient weight and and and have gone about being massive sort of champions of sorting that out.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

We you need champions in yeah you need allies and whatever along the way yes yeah yeah yeah but which you know we all we all need a bit of that but I'm gonna ask you to think about you personally now this is where you have to park your modesty I'm afraid because you obviously you've done incre you you you are you know I think if you you're brilliant and and you're fantastic and successful but I want you to think a bit about as your career trajectory is concerned you know what are the you might call the magic tokens what are the what are the characteristics or the skills or the knowledge or the talents that you have that have helped you to get where you got that others perhaps don't have well I do I think you might resist this answer because it isn't really isn't really about me exactly but I one of the things that I think is so I have always found incredibly rewarding and I think is amazingly rewarding for anyone in business is the idea of partnership yeah working with a partner and it's really sort of under under discussed isn't it as a thing I mean people kind of talk a load of old stuff about teams and teamwork and then people talk a load of old stuff about themselves but people really rarely discuss the the thing of of working in a in a pair and in partnership.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

And I think it I I really think it is has is amazingly powerful when it's right because I think that it partnerships they correct each other they challenge each other they bring different ways of thinking and looking at things they you know they stop complacency they s they they stop ideas getting fixed and trammelled you know this is them them and they're really really supportive and make the thing really good fun. And you know it's why producers need directors and art directors the copywriters and and and why why Lennon and McCartney you know I think just genuinely really really believe in the power of of pairs and working in partnerships and I've been so lucky that all my life I've had these really lovely partners you know when I go back to school when I was at school I had this really lovely friend who was with me all the way through I've I had my sister who you know who's the most brilliant has been and continues to be the most brilliant sort of partner throughout my whole life then when we you know at BMP I had all the lovely partners that I work with there. And then I've had this incredible partnership with Jane which has been you know so amazing has been going on for 20 years or whatever. Yeah and and I did and I do think it I do I do think it's an incredible way of working. And so I suppose if I was to say something something that maybe I'm really I I'm good at or mind about a lot it's it's about maybe being a good partner and and really really valuing partnership.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

So why why I'm really interested in this idea of partnership and particularly with with Jane I guess but so what do you what is it do you think that that makes the two of you complement each other so well?

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Because I think we've got we've got really different preferences and and tendencies and ways of thinking about the world she's Irish and I'm English she's a she's a driver and loves moving things forward and gets incredibly restless if things aren't moving fast. And I'm much more sort of slow thinking and like to really reflect and mull on things. She is sort of blindingly insightful about situations and and people and notices things that usually that other people don't notice. But I'm quite good at working out what the connections are between what she has seen and and maybe what the sort of need behind that is or the trend in that is she's pr she's quite uh very sort of analytical often about looking at data. I mean she's brilliant brilliantly analytical but I think I'm probably quite good at extrapolating meaning from it and thinking oh what might you do with that?

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

So maybe a little bit more of the what you could do differently a bit of it maybe. So we have these differences but we're also really which are incredibly helpful in the work we do but we're also really really brilliant friends and so whenever anything goes wrong we can cheer each other up when um when we're when we can't solve something we can have a really good untense kind of conversation in order to get to the bottom of it. And and we really sort of understand each other and can yeah be I suppose be quite sort of vulnerable about not knowing the answer or not being able to get it right or not feeling happy with where we've got to or whatever and for it not to and for it not to matter.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

I remember hearing people when I was young say oh we should never go into business with your friends badly or whatever but it sounds it sounds like for you and Jane it that friendship is a is a real uh integral part of the power of your relationship your partnership yeah I I think it I think it really is and it's certainly what has made having uh you know a big part of what's made PLH such an sort of enjoyable thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

I think quite early on we we we found ourselves slightly in that thing you know you get I think you get it a lot in family businesses where everything becomes far too sort of embeshed and and the and and lots of things that perhaps should need to be say said that get said or or other assumptions get made about things.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

So quite early on I think we discovered that and and may and this again this is thanks to Jane we we sort of made quite a big effort to put in place some sort of light structure to make quite sure that we that we kept it on the kept it on the road and it didn't all um you know descend into great great big like a family everything communicated through the subtext I think you'll find that we in this house we take brandy in the drawing room that's brilliant so thanks so much for sharing that I mean that that is that is a brilliant um description and insight into that the power of partnerships and and I I've really loved hearing that and hopefully uh our legion of listeners will will do so as well thank you genuinely that's that's fantastic so you we've spoken a bit about your kind of skills and characteristics and the partnerships etc we've spoken a little bit about kind of your plan if you want to call it that if that's not too grand a word but it you know in every story if you're the you're the hero of your own story of course you are but every story also has an anti-hero and at this point I don't want you to name names unless you particularly want to you're welcome to do so and it doesn't have to be individual people but it might be it might be I'm talking about the things that you've had to overcome I suppose to be successful to get to where you've got to and it might yes of course it might be people but it might equally be systems or structures or prevailing ideas.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

What are the things you've had what are the barriers you've had to overcome would you say I think it hasn't been that easy going in on the on the female platform honestly because people bristle around it they think that the they they think that they're going to be criticised or they think that there's a political point that's been made or they think that they're it it's well all the all the usual kind of sexist tropes of of why women often haven't been listened to in the past I suppose. So I guess I guess if we had to be uh you know I think Shane will probably agree with this we have had some quite some experiences and I won't name names but we have had some quite some some experiences where people have been quite have you know been quite dismissive from the outs outset and right sorry sorry to interrupt would that be people who have actually engaged with you and got you in you know ostensibly to offer what you say you offer and then been dismissive or or other people? Um I think I think people in audiences quite often okay so we do we do do quite a lot of speaking stuff around the book and there's there's almost always there's almost always quite a lot of shallange and and then then quite often when we when we go into when we go into companies to talk about what we do I mean there's a ch not minding challenge at all but but quite often there's a sort of a subtext of oh god here but here we're going and we're going to be criticised and so it has that hasn't all that hasn't always been easy at all but again going back to the partnership thing because we've always been in it together it it's it's that it's been fine you know we can support each other through it and that's that's been so it hasn't it hasn't been too painful or it hasn't felt too personal.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Right. But have you ever felt like an existential threat to to what you offer or what you do or or your business ultimately because of those attitudes or I now I think we feel a bit of an existential threat because uh not not not to the not to the business I don't think but because because just over the last yeah 18 months that because the the you know the everything has swung so far against the sort of prevailing winds of DEI and and people genuinely wanting to make workplaces more diverse and have deeper and more representative understanding of their audiences and doing good for customers all those all those things now that now it feels that the slightly the cultural tide has gone swung quite quite aggressively the other way and that that sort of stuff now is being disparaged a bit and so I think we do we do feel that the culturally that there is a a yeah quite a quite a dark cloud over things.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

And that and that may well and hopefully is just the nature of the the of feminism you know that it comes in comes in waves and you have a big surge and then it falls back and then surges forward and then you know never quite goes back to the same baseline each time. So hopeful hopefully it is it is that but it doesn't for age for for most of the time we've felt that the cultural winds have been in our sales and and now it it doesn't feel it doesn't feel like that.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Would you say Philippa that you live your life and particularly your career by certain rules any kind of principles or behaviours or we talk about values a lot don't we in marketing that you that you particularly kind of treasure I think I'm I think I'm a massive fan basically of the sort of quiet virtues I think right I I I I really really value thoughtfulness I really in the in in the in the both senses I value qu really value quiet people and and I think that the world often thinks they haven't got much to say but they've normally got the best and most interesting things to say I I sort of I think I really I I really value gentleness I'm not very keen on showiness so yes I think that I think the the those the more those quiet virtues probably and I really like quiet as well actually I think that the that quiet is a I shouldn't be saying that on a podcast should it should I but I really dead air is a crime I'll have you know I I I um I really like I I like quiet too. And and can you think of uh an example or some example of of where you sort of live those where where they come to life those those sorts of values I think we're quite unshowy.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

I think we're probably to our detriment but I d I think we're quite unshowy probably about our business and our selves really both Jane and I we really to the point of being incredibly babyish actually don't like don't like putting stuff out there and and and yeah quite reticent about about all that stuff so I think we I think we're both yes both prefer to let our the work speak for itself and and and that that isn't always the best way to fame and fortune is it got you staying true to to those values though and and you you've also mentioned I'm gonna ask you a bit more about allies now you've mentioned some longstanding clients and and some of those people who've supported you can you think of other other people or groups who who have been real allies along along the way well we've yes we've had these lovely longstanding with clients personally I've always had these really really lovely partnerships. And I think that that yeah I think I think that those probably are the are the the the the those people who've been at the top of companies who've who've been who've been really encouraging have have me you know meant so much to us and have kind of gone out of their way to make sure that we get seen and heard when it would have been often off probably much easier to to make a more conventional choice.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Those people have been have been amazing for proceeding led and and have yeah you know powered us through really yeah and I I want you to think now about with with all of the sort of stuff and the and the theory and some of the practice that we've spoken about as well I want you to think about a kind of a happy ending and I don't by any means heaven forbid mean the end of your career I'm just talking about when it all comes together, when it all goes right what does what does that happy ending look like?

SPEAKER_01 40:07

What does the world look like when when it all clicks yeah we Jane and I really can really really well the thing that matters to us more than anything now is we really like doing quite difficult projects for quite nice people. Yes and that's and and that's that's what we really like. And we don't so things that are intellectually challenging or require a lot of insight and understanding for for people who want to listen is is our are ideal and that's that's all we really mind about now. We you I think probably in the early days we had to mind about a lot more because we had to get the business set up and launched and then established and then the reputation and then build our equity but now that's now that's what we that's definitely the thing that makes us both happy.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

That's lovely. So what what if someone comes to you with a really easy problem?

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Do you just go no it's not for us that's we don't norm normally we would say no well I hopefully we wouldn't we would I think normally we would say oh well this is what our answer would be yeah and and not make a big project out of it or make a big deal of it we'd just say oh I think this is probably what's happening go and look at that. Just just do just try and think of some um advice and and see them on their way.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

I love that difficult problems for nice people that's really as an encapsulation of great work. And what's what's next for you then what does what does the near and far future hold for Philippa Roberts?

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Well I I really hate it when things flatline right so and I re and I really like having having plans and and a sense of progress so and there's there is this very nice thing which happens in female lives to a greater extent than in male lives I think when children of all that very sort of intensive childcare stage is gone and you know that all that stuff of having to as you know to hold together hold up the sort of sky basically of the family and work at the same time is is is as you know like an immensely absorbing and it could makes it very difficult to look forward often I think you're just literally just keeping going and so I'm now at that quite nice stage that I can and can can be thinking about what's next and and new chapters and I haven't quite defined exactly what that is going to be but I what I don't want it to be is like the old life but a sort of flatter version of it.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

So well you'll have to come back and and let us know all about that then. Yes can I ask you a little bit more about I mean we'll we'll take family and friends and and loved ones as red that they're important in your life out outside of work what other things are important what sort of hobbies interests passions.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Yes well I'm trying again as part of this new new chapter thing I'm trying to do lots of new things that I haven't haven't really done recently or haven't certainly haven't been able to do in the in the full on white heat of of children and work. So so I'm doing a history course which is really oh wow nice and obviously having not done any history since Cambridge that's really lovely. Magna Carter again Magna Magna spelt right this time and and I'm trying to learn to paint quite unsuccessfully oh wow and I um what's your medium oils waters it is it is oils actually well sludgy sludgy looking oils sounds great and and also I'm learning to meditate going back to that the thing About quiet and learning that. So yes, I'm trying I'm I'm I'm wanting to do lots more learning, yeah. Learning things now, life feels it can be a bit more flexible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

How are you finding the meditation? Can I ask?

SPEAKER_01 44:14

I I I I love it.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

I'm hopeless, I'm hopeless at it, but uh it's fine because you're allowed you're you you you the thought that you're hopeless at it comes into your mind that you just let it flow.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Can you be hopeless at meditation? Surely not.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Well I think you can uh well I think people who are who are the uh are what do they call what do they call it, realised, who've been meditating for decades, yes, do have this incredible sort of presence about them and calmness about them. And so I definitely think it's possible to be really good at it. I see I don't know whether that means it's possible to be hopeless at it, but it's certainly possible to be incredibly good at it, I think.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

I I love it. We've known each other for a long time, haven't we? But I've learned so many things about you today, which I find fascinating. I don't know other people will do as well. Uh one final, final question for you, which is given that we are on a podcast, would you by any chance have a podcast recommendation for us?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Oh yes, I would. Oh, is that do you know the who I mean by John Tueser, who used to, he's like a BBC sort of legend. Okay. He's he's 90.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

All right.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

And I think he was like the founder of Newsnight, um, or certainly one of the maybe the founding presenter, and he ran the world service for ages. Anyway, he's 90 and he's just uh launched this podcast, yeah, which is all uh talking to 90 year olds. And it's the most and it's it's the most uh it's honestly it's the most uh impressive and heartwarming and uh inspiring things because obviously they could be talking uh all about loss and and pain and uh illness and you know aches and all you know, they all and and they don't talk about any any of that, they're just talking about the you know the what they what life how life has changed over the last basically near you know nearly 100 years, and and their perspectives and views and what they've learned and honestly, and it's so it's so inspiring and so interesting, you know. But that that he's incredible, and I think it's called the best is yet to come. And and and and and and the and the people on it are the are uh the the three that I've listened to, he's only just started it, but the three I've listened to have been incredibly inspiring and lovely.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Well, that is a fantastic name for a podcast. Yes, may I just say again, you know, I think this pretty little head is a fabulous name for uh uh an institution, if I want to call it, or a company, you know, brilliant, a great name for the book as well. Oh, thank you. Well, it it genuinely is, and I mean I mean that's it, that's it, really. I mean, I've absolutely loved chatting to you, Philip. I always do. And thank thank you for coming on here and giving so generously of your time and your wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Oh god, it's been so nice. What a lovely way to spend an evening. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Well, and best of luck with the next chapter, of course.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Yeah, and very good luck with the next podcast and the podcast generally. It's so good.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Oh, bless you. Thank you very much. Join me next time on the Amber moment when we'll be hearing another story of another remarkable career. Until then, stay amber.