Sara Jones

Sara is the founder of Pearl Metrics. She 's built econometric models for some of the world's most famous brands including VW, Coca-Cola, Sky, IKEA and Virgin. Here, she talks about having parents who were gregarious and mathematical; telling the story of data to audiences who don't always understand numbers; experiencing a somewhat toxic work culture; making a career decision that was conducive to having small children; becoming "one of the most famous people" in her client's business; and good, old-fashioned hard work.

If you want to hear about someone who's absolutely committed to doing the right thing, you need to listen to Sara.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:57

So every story has a starting point, and every hero of every story, that is you for the purposes of today, has his or her origin story. So I'd love it if you could start by telling us a little bit about your background, your childhood education, and any early influences.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

If I think back to my childhood, it was basically just years and years chock full of characters.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

And I think that kind of defined the direction of my life. Like everything has to be interesting and kind of draw your attention.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

My dad was just absolutely the biggest character of all with the biggest heart.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

And he was someone who set up his own business from a very young age.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Um, technically he was an accountant, but I don't think many people would actually have known that. Um he also had a love of kind of art and uh music, and he loved people, like he was always looking after people. And he married my my sainted mother, that was the phrase that he used for her, who was a statistician. She was actually a sort of my inspiration. She was actually an econometrician as well. But um, we lost her when I was quite young, and I actually only discovered when I was clearing out her office. So she did exactly the same thing as me.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Amazing. It was in the blood.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Yes, and I mean it's not a complete crazy coincidence, which I'll come on to, I guess, but she was very mathematical. I mean, my dad was very mathematical, and I I just inherited that kind of love of numbers and logic and order. So I did lots of maths, you know, GCSE, AO, A level, yeah, and then decided to go and read maths at university.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

And it was really quite dry. I'm not sure I would really recommend a maths degree to anyone. I think the people that I lived with who used maths were kind of the economists and the engineers and the psychologists. And I wish with hindsight that I'd done one of those degrees rather than just pure maths. But it did lead me down a course. And coming out of that maths degree, I had done some work experience in the creative agency, Adam and Eve, which well now Adam and Eve, well, as was DDB.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Oh right.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

I loved it. I just it was such a fun, it took me back to the world of my dad, kind of just fun, gregarious characters. And I just thought maybe I could spend a year doing some work experience in the advertising world before I knew what I wanted to be when I grew up. So I went to Bristol Uni and I went to their career service and I got the book of jobs in advertising. It was massive. I mean, it was just ginormous. So we opened it up and it was just serendipity. The page I opened it up on was a job for a one-year statistical assistant in the creative agency that I done my work experience with.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

No way.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

It was honestly just bizarre. And I applied to the esteemed Lesbonette for the role of statistician. And he said, I'm really sorry, but actually, this is for people doing a sandwich course, uh, so a year in industry, and you've graduated, and so I can't offer you that position. And I was devastated because I just thought this was really where I wanted to be.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

But he then said, I tell you what, we'll go one better. I'm gonna make a position for you. And let's train you up in all things econometrics. So he sent me off to the LSE where I did some courses in econometrics and actually realized they're basically just statistics. And I then came back and spent, I think, about seven years working with Les Bonette and kind of learning how to build crazy mathematical models that helped brands sell more stuff, basically.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

I was gonna say, would you mind um just going back a step and and imagine I know nothing? It's not it's not too difficult, by the way. But for our audience who perhaps don't know, who perhaps don't know what econometrics is, could you give a little definition of what that is?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

So there are lots of different ways of cutting this. But the first thing to note is that econometrics is the same thing as MMM, which is often the word that you'll kind of hear in marketing rooms, which stands for market mix modeling. And it's a very academic subject. It is compulsory if you study economics at university. If you go to the LSE, you'll study econometrics for two years. It is ostensibly just statistical modelling with economic data. And about 40 years ago, a bunch of kind of mareteers realized that they could use computers to deploy this academic subject and help them with their job so they could work out the role of price and promotions and advertising and all the things that kind of make sort of explain why people buy their product or or don't buy their product. And I would say now all major media agencies and a lot of the really big firms like Sky have in-house econometricians or MMM teams because it really helps you understand how to sell to consumers and what the return on investment is of your advertising.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

So we have lots of very kind of interesting conversations with finance where we can tell them for every pound you've invested in advertising, this is how much profit you've made. But if you'd done it slightly differently, we think we could have made you more profit.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah. Pretty compelling stuff. Thank you for that definition. So it sounds as though quite quickly you you you um got obsessed with what was then BMP. You kind of you you had a taste of it and you thought this is where I need to be. So were you aware when you went into that environment of having any sort of long-term plan or a kind of a mission as to where you wanted to get to in life?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Quite literally the opposite. I just didn't I did not know what I wanted to be. So I knew well, I thought I knew I wasn't going to be a teacher, I wasn't gonna be an accountant or a an actuary, a lot of the or a banker, you know, the really obvious things that you do with a math degree. I had no concept that you could use math in advertising. And I just had stumbled across this role that did exactly that. And I ended up staying forever. I haven't really left the career. But it was it's a very small, well, at the time it was a very small niche industry.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

It has now grown into a kind of a mid-niche category.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah, yeah. And so so if you didn't have what you might term a plan or a mission, what what was kind of driving you? What was like why did you get up in the morning? What what sort of drove you on?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

In the very beginning.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah, and and then there's that first part of your career, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Um I think a need to use my mathematical brain in an interesting way. Okay. And I felt that actually what I this kind of crazy industry that I'd stumbled across did exactly that.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Because there'll be a lot of economisticians that will tell you it's all about the numbers and all about the statistics. But the thing that I love about it is you are trying to use data to explain people's behavior. You're trying to build an equation that explains why people buy or don't buy Cadbury's or IKEA or Volkswagens. And in order to do that, you've got to merge, you've got to kind of be my dad, ostensibly, which is an accountant who loves people. Yes. Um, you've got to have those two kind of mashed together. And that's the thing that still continues to drive me. It's not a pure love of numbers, and it's not a purely kind of soft skills world. It's kind of bringing the two things together, and that's the thing I love.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

And and you hear people talk about this, I'm sure you talk about it as well. It's kind of what was what's the story of the data. So can you can you talk a bit about that from getting from that quite dry place, which is the numbers and the data dry yourself to to the kind of the interesting, colourful, compelling, and useful thing at the other end?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

I can. And it's uh I guess that to make it slightly dry, it's worth kind of thinking about a typical econometrics project. The world wants us to move really fast, but actually, in order to do it well, you've got to go relatively slowly because actually, even though we are surrounded by data and our clients can produce reams and reams and reams, it's often messy and inaccurate. And if I were just to kind of stuff this data into an equation or a model, I'd end up creating rubbish and rubbish in, rubbish out. So I spend quite a long time kind of looking through the data, um, making sure I understand it, and turning something that is very dry into a really elegant set of kind of numbers and pictures that people who don't have any understanding of math can understand.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

So you are ostensibly telling a story. And I mean that is basically what I do in my day-to-day world. And something that happened a couple of years ago, kind of I could see the parallel. So it was a friend's birthday, and we had come up with this idea of making a video compilation for him.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

And I think it was in lockdown. So everyone did it in their own houses, and we all made these seemingly quite random videos. And I put my hand up to edit it, and I took all this random stuff and I basically edited it into a story that kind of told what the you know what we wanted it to do.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

And actually, when I look back on it, because everyone was amazed that I've managed to make it happen, I realized it's exactly what I do in my day job. Right. I will take tens, if not hundreds, of really random, disparate, messy pieces of data and turn them into a story that says and tells everyone why people buy their brand. And it's something that can translate into the boardroom or intermediate agencies and is kind of universally actionable.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

That's amazing. Because you'd think, wouldn't you? Because you're working with numbers, you're working with data, and you think, well, there can only be one answer then, because math is math. But it sounds way more creative than that in a way.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Well, it's it you have to you're kind of on a slightly delicate type rope because what we're doing is very mathematical and very statistical. So when you build a model, an equation, that has to be statistically robust.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Absolutely has to be. If it isn't, the model isn't right. But it has to also reflect reality. And so I I mean I've worked with a lot of super brain academics with PhDs coming out their ears, but they couldn't build good models because they didn't understand the people that they were trying to build the models about.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

They also didn't understand the people in the boardroom that had to understand the models and action them. And so actually, what makes a good econometrician or a good statistician is someone who can kind of blend those two things together of yes, it's a really super nerdy, geeky job, and it's full of data, and the data's got to be right, but the data has to tell a story that is meaningful to someone who doesn't get the numbers.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yes. So can you talk to us a little bit about so you've you've enjoyed several years at BMP and then you move on? What happens the next couple of steps in your career?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

So I I mean I loved working with Les Burnett, and he's still a really good friend and mentor. But you know, you outgrow a small team. And I took a step back and I thought that this is still quite a niche world of marketing evaluation, but there are different facets to it. And I set out to try and have experience of all of the different avenues. So my next role, I went to Sky and I was working in the insight team effectively. So I went from doing econometrics to doing far more granular data analytics. I don't need to necessarily get into kind of needy concepts, but they were a very interesting team, and I learned a huge amount because Sky was back then, I can't speak to it now, but was a very culturally difficult company to work in.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Oh, go on, tell us about that then.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Oh gosh. Okay. So if you were if you were kind of just doing the the kind of the grunt work, it was brilliant. The people were fun, they really threw lots of entertainment kind of factor at you. But the more senior you got, the more responsibility you got, and the more pressure there was on you. And people in the senior teams thought nothing of throwing things, screaming, shouting. And it was it was a real culture shock coming from the soft, kind of cuddly creative agency to a world like Sky, I found very challenging. Yeah. I I learned a lot. I learned a huge amount. I learned how to deal with really difficult, in some places quite obnoxious people who were out for their own benefit, I think. And I I mean I didn't I long story short, I only stayed there for two years.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Because I it really wasn't the place for me. But I learnt lots and lots and lots, and I kind of then took it into my future roles, but kind of let certainly didn't let it kind of influence how I behaved, I hope.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, and you can never know, can you? When when you make a move what that culture is going to be like, particularly you can sort of understand what the work is going to be like to a large extent, I guess. But it's only when you really work somewhere that you understand firsthand what that culture is. So how much of a kind of a literary culture shock was that for you?

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Oh God, it was absolutely crazy.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

So I I mean, I I'm sure there are lots of organ organizations like this, but they loved acronyms at Sky, loved them. And I I just have a brain that says if I don't understand something, I I don't want to pretend and nod. I need to really understand it. So I started writing down all these acronyms and chasing down definitions. And I started writing a crib sheet for what they were.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

And I I think before I left, I gave it as a kind of a leave-in present to my team.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

And I I heard really not very long ago that that crib sheet still exists.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

And it's just started a bit of a change. And I just don't like bullshit. I like people to just feel like they know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

And I'm sure that happens in lots of industries. It certainly happens in marketing. Um, I was looking at a brief only today that had several acronyms, and the people briefing me didn't know what they stood for. But yeah, so it's uh I think it still continues. So talk us a bit what happened after Sky. Where did you go thereafter?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

So I'd so I'd done the creative agency, I'd been in-house, and I then having experienced the culture shock, as you said, I thought it's time to go sort of running back to the world of econometrics. And I came across a relatively new econometric consultancy called Data to Decisions, who I think they were only four people at the time, and they were all sort of working from their bedrooms. It was really kind of backroom stuff.

SPEAKER_04 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

But they had this massively strong aspiration to grow. And I joined as I think their fourth or fifth member on the day that they took over an office. It was in Essex. I live in West London, it was a really long career.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Oh, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

But I really, I really loved the two founders, Paul Dyson and Carl Weaver, and I could really see where they were going with the business. So I jumped from Sky to D to D, Data Decisions, and on my first day, I mean, it was honestly like from the sublime to the ridiculous. On my first day, Carl said, Right, we're gonna go and buy you a desk.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

So I had to go and buy an office chair and a desk, and then I had to go to PC World to go and buy my laptop.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

You know, whereas this world of sky, I'd kind of got been sent down to the IT desk and it was just kind of there you go.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

So it couldn't have been more different. Yes. And I really I just I loved my time at DTD. I was there again for probably kind of six odd years running a little small team, and we just I say we, you know, the the company just grew massively. I had a short break to have my kids uh while I was there, and then I came back and they'd moved offices, they'd come slightly further in from Essex, but they were on a path to sell the company.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

So they were really, really growing. And I think actually one of my saddest moments when I look back on it with hindsight was I was asked to go and set up an office in New York. Wait because part of the the sale deal was that they had to have offices in lots of different countries. And I turned it down because I had just had my twins.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

And I thought it might be a bit much to sort of cart them off halfway across the world. And obviously, you know, it was going to be a lot of work to set up the team.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Sure, I bet.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

But the lovely lady who did go and do it is still there. She's married to a New Yorker. And and so I sometimes look back and just think, I wonder how different my life would have been.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

If uh if I'd taken them up on it, but I don't my my my big ethos and I don't have any regrets. So I stayed for a reason. And obviously that gave Irina her reason to go over there and find her her life. But um yeah, I do look back and think, I wonder how different that would have been. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

And then and then talk about the the journey then from that to eventually setting up your own thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Okay. So D2D I loved that was the kind of the small to big kind of bespoke consultancy. But I was working really, really, really hard at the end, and I just had my kids, and I decided that maybe a slightly easier life would have been nice. And I got headhunted to go and work in MediaCon, uh Media Agency, who had a pretty significant MM team. They had a small team that were full of kind of quite senior analysts, but they didn't have anyone actually running that team. And I got asked by the lovely Jane Kristen to come in and just kind of look after the team basically, hold their hands a little bit and guide them.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

And she said, I can absolutely promise you, and I think I was only doing three days a week, if I remember correctly.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

But it was don't it was going to be nine to five.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

And true, and she was absolutely true to her word. It was nine to five. You know, the team were super experienced. They did need a bit of kind of commercial, kind of commercial lens put over it. Um, so I we went from being a really unprofitable team to being a profitable team within, well, a relatively short space of time. But while I was there, I had this I was starting to just fall out of love with the consultancy model that exists generally in I was gonna say the UK, but it's probably globally in in our field. Which is you've got grads building the databases, you then pass that data on to people with a couple of years' experience to build the models, and then the directors who are overseeing the whole thing, but they will come in and they will present the findings to the clients and they'll do the strategy piece. And I just I struggled with it because there were so often big flaws in the data because they'd been the database been built by built by people who didn't really understand what the model needed to look like or what the presentation needed to look like. And then the models, you know, were just flawed. And remember I remember coming in one day and looking at a model that was just about to be presented, and it was for an FMCG brand, and it had no competitor variables in it, which basically means yes this competit that this brand didn't matter what any of their competitors did they still sold the same amount right which is very wrong unlikely yes very unlikely sadly and it made me really sad because I just thought our clients are putting a a lot of money into this and B a lot of faith to use the models to make better decisions and the models were totally and utterly flawed and so I took that kind of slight niggle yeah and I joined it up with the fact that I had twins who were very shortly about to go start uh go and start school and I thought it's now or never so I am going to set up my own business right and I'm gonna go and be my own boss and I'm gonna do things the way I think they should be done. And so that was then how Perlmetrics my business came about 13 uh almost exactly 13 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

13 years. That's incredible. And I mean it's really incredible actually when you tell that story about models that are so fundamentally flawed. So the the process therefore of of how they are being put together is fundamentally flawed if they're not sort of I don't know internally audited somehow to ensure robustness and correctness and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Well I mean you you can argue that as a as the director it was my job to audit that model and and obviously that's exactly what I did. But the fact that they very near because I was only working three days a week at that point and and the person who built the model had a PhD in econometrics. Yes and lots of years ex lots of years experience but it was worrying that that nearly fell through the cracks. And and the thing is some clients are very very technical they really know all of the details of the model but most of them don't they trust you as an analyst to do the the kind of the nerdy geeky stuff. Yes and they just want the results but if those results are built on nonsense yes they are dangerous in my view.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

So what is life like at Pearl then? How's it different or what do you like about it and how does your model work?

SPEAKER_00 24:06

So the Pearl metrics business model it it is what exactly what I set out to be. So we we only use really really senior results from start to finish. So the people who build the data have 20 plus years experience of building MMM models. In some ways it's a ludicrous thing to do because these people are really expensive but it means that you can have utter faith in the data that goes into the models and then when the models are built they take weeks and weeks there's nothing automated it is built by hand often painstakingly you know kind of questioning every single number and checking it with the client or other results and it just results in better work. Now I think you mentioned this earlier that econometrics or modeling is a bit of a kind of an art and not just science and and it's right and one of the things I would say to my clients is it is not the gospel. You know the models I'm building you are just a theory and we have to kind of make sure that they make sense and that they kind of align with everything else that you know in the business and and I think my clients appreciate the honesty that I bring to that kind of conversation rather than just presenting them as a beta compli.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

So I I I really try to live and breathe the kind of the values that I thought the industry needed. The the dark thing about it is that it's really not scalable. So it's very difficult to find people who can bring both the kind of the nerdy geeky stat side and the people loving, understanding and and kind of do good modeling. But I'm really comfortable with that and I'm I've kind of made my piece that I am not going to have a business that you know builds to the scale that Data to Decisions did or the scale that MediaCon's team was at. And I have really very actually I would say very recently kind of again made my piece that actually this is a really wonderful lifestyle business where I have beautiful clients who've all come through word of mouth done of zero marketing. Yeah but I love all of them and I really enjoy the work that we do.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

And I don't feel like I need this business to be huge. Because we do really good work and I'm really happy with where we're where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Lovely to hear happy people love having happy people on the show it's great. I was going to ask you if you look back on your career and I I want you to think like honestly and with your modesty very firmly at the door if you don't mind what do you think you have or have had through the course of your career? What sort of skills, knowledge, character traits that that you that are your kind of magic tokens that have helped you succeed where perhaps others wouldn't I would say and I'm I'm worried that this is going out of fashion but just no fear of working really hard.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

I just don't think there's any way around that and I keep being told that I need to use more AI in my work to kind of work smarter which I'm attempting to tackle um but ultimately what has got me to where I am is just a sheer bloody minded commitment to working really hard and doing the right thing. I have worked with quite a large percentage of my industry and I'm kind of surprised at how many people are not that thorough. I'm not saying the industry is bad by any stretch of the imagination but I'm just sort of shocked at how many people actually don't care that much about the work that they turn up. Whereas actually I think what what makes things work is really really caring. So I will not put a kind of a model to the client if I am not a hundred percent confident that I think it's the best I could possibly do.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Which sometimes means very very late nights.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

But that's probably my magic token I would say I mean it's it's laudable stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

And I think you you talked about this a little bit in in our conversation but it sounds like you have quite a strong sort of personal set of values if you like and you even mentioned the word values I think can you expand a bit more on on those values and how how you like to work and what sort of behaviors and values that you kind of treasure so my values I would say are transparency uh particularly with clients and also with people that you know the consultants that work with me.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah transparency and honesty my values are just hard work I just don't think there's anything around it and in terms of my kind of business it is making sure that the people element is just as strong as the statistical element. I I just think it's very often black and white that actually they have to go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

And and then conversely then if you think about you as the hero of your own story which you are whether you like it or not who when I say who I don't want you to name names unless you particularly want to but who or or what I suppose is the anti-hero of that of your story? What what's pulling in the other direction?

SPEAKER_00 29:37

What have you had to overcome what barriers I don't feel like I've had too many awful awfully kind of huge barriers to overcome. I touched on the Sky story I was really quite taken aback by the the the kind of culture at Sky and I've learnt a lot from it. I think the the the thing that the anti-hero I don't know if it's quite anti-hero but certainly the thing I find myself really struggling with is just finding people who care as much about the work as I do.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

And that's the thing that I think is tricky in just kind of keeping the business kind of working and kind of turning out good quality work. Um is just finding people who care. Yeah sounds a bit cliched but no not at all it's really important to me.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yeah and and then again you don't have to name names although you're welcome to do so if you want but if you think about the people because like no one is an island you know who who are the what are the who are the people and groups I suppose who've been particular allies for you as you've built your career.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

I mean the most obvious name that springs to mind is Lesbinette my first ever boss so he gave me my first job despite the fact that I'd applied for a position that I wasn't technically supposed to be applying for and he's just he's just bloody brilliant like I mean he is a world renowned guru in the field and I feel very very lucky to have kind of worked and learnt from him for so many years. So he's an obvious one. And then who else I mean I guess a bit cliched I guess but my my friends and my family I just literally couldn't do this without because they are my sounding boards on everything you know from you know should I buy a new laptop to should I merge with such and such because there's lots of offers you know to group sort of join other groups and when you run your own business without any other kind of directors so to speak it can be a little bit lonely and so actually friends and family are the people that you go to to sound things out.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

No of course so you mentioned potential mergers or joining up with other groups there. Again I'm sure you can't get into all the detail of that but what what's been the story of that? I mean what's either prevented you from getting into bed with another group or or what has attempted you to do so in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 32:10

So uh there was one opportunity a handful of years ago with someone who I absolutely adore and I know we would have worked brilliantly together. But you know the the more you go through those kind of conversations of working out are your values aligned, tips. Right, you know, do we um want the same thing and that was where it was wrong and I realized that and I spoke to this about a second ago that I've made my peace with the fact that I don't really want a big business because for me metrics is about a lifestyle business as much as anything else. And what I love is possibly a bit controlling but I love being in control of the work that we do and I don't want to compromise that in any way whatsoever in order to grow and create a b business that just gets sold a few years down the line. So if I if I do merge with another group then it has to kick those boxes and that you know there are conversations kind of happening I have and they are fully aware of this but I have reservations that it's it's always going to be difficult to keep my model in a bigger business.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

And it's the people who care it's the quality running as a kind of a central vein for everything you do.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

But never say never and I um never kind of close to talking to people who think that there's a way to kind of make it work.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

I'm gonna ask you Sarah about your I I like to ask people about their sort of happy ending. I don't I don't mean the end of your career by any means. Heaven forbid I mean when it all when it all comes together all the elements of your story come together and you kind of achieve your aims and things are in full flow what does that world look like I guess there's the kind of the short term so like at the end of a project it's always frenetic.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

It's absolutely manic and 11th hour stuff. Yeah and then you present and even if you're presenting difficult things, you know you're telling clients that maybe the campaign didn't work as well as they'd hoped there's always a positive energy that comes out of it because there's always something that we can do differently. You know when you spend three months building a project like I do you're so ingrained and you're so invested that you kind of end on a a bit of a high. So that's that's kind of a short term happy ending. Every project is just always feels really great to kind of get across the line.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Kind of looking ahead I I don't want to be working as hard as I do for too much longer and I need to I I've kind of grown I'm really lucky to have some absolutely insanely brilliant brands. Yes. Like some of the the country's kind of biggest advertisers trust me to do their modeling.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

But I I think my kind of happy ending would be over the next couple of years that kind of level of work right sizing and me being able to focus on fewer clients and being able to just do things really well and kind of keep things ticking over without working quite as hard as I do.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

And you've you've mentioned your brilliant roster of clients there. To what extent would you say they are aware of your model and your kind of values that you've talked about so eloquently and and you know to what extent do they care about that?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

A really good question actually I had a call with one of my clients this week with the CFO and the chief customer officer it was the first time I'd ever actually presented to them and but they they it was funny because um they started the call by saying you're one of the most famous people in our business which I didn't know how to take but I was very flattered. Yeah I think it was a flattering thing. They said famous not not infamous yeah yes but the role of this meeting was for me to really kind of explain my values and why the work that I've been doing for them for the last five years is trustworthy and why they should believe it. And I think by the end of the call we got them over the line. Right and so they and and my values are integral to why clients should have faith in what I do because because like like I've been talking to you know there's there's so much detail in everything that my industry does that and if and it's a house of cards that if it's not believable from the very very foundations yeah the whole thing is liable to collapse. And so my values are really important to the kind of talk about so do they all know about it I I I'd hope so I might need to go round and check that they do. If I just put something else on your to-do list that wasn't that wasn't the intention I got and what um so what what's next for you then what's next uh Sarah Jones both near and far future I've just mentioned that I would love to kind of right size the amount of work that I do I would like to build the team up a little bit more so that I can take a small step back but I'm not going to do that without with any kind of compromise to the quality of the work. So my near term is trying to put that in place. And then in the slightly longer term it is yeah sort of just getting that right balance between doing really fantastic work that keeps me happy and kind of energized and excited but then also being able to spend time cooking and um traveling the world. I've got a a slightly crazy secret plan that I'm not telling anyone about obviously which is when my kids go to uni in about a year and a half because they're twins they're gonna just leave me at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Because I can work absolutely anywhere in the world yeah I want to just go and kind of decamp to various places in the UK and across the world and kind of experience different cultures and different lifestyles and maybe go and learn a bit of French and what an amazing idea. I don't know go and live by the sea or a lake just because I've always lived in West London and I feel like I need to broaden my horizons.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Well you should talk you talk to my friend Barry he and his partner and their small child have done exactly that over the last 12 months so I'll put you on top of this do. He can give you some tips and advice or whatever if you need them. You've alluded to your sort of outside interest there but we'll we'll take as red that your family and other loved ones are are important in your life. I want to know what else kind of excites you outside of work, what your passions and hobbies and interests I think if you ask people or my friends it would be about bringing people together.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

So there's a kind of I guess a central theme here which is my work's about understanding people and it's because I just I love people like I love different characters and this I guess comes back to the kind of the house that I grew up in that it was just the revolving open door. There were just people through and through and I I I don't think I do that quite as well as my dad did but that's what I love is I just love having the house full of really fantastic people and laughter and um I'm a very mediocre cook but I just love cooking so I love feeding people and putting random disparate groups together and and seeing what happens.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Well I'd say you're underselling yourself both in the culinary stakes and the social stakes there if I may say so. Final final question then as we're on a podcast would you have a podcast recommendation for us?

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Oh it's really interesting actually I'm not an avid podcast listener and I'm sorry Paul taken because I love peace and quiet uh particularly from walking a dog however I got recommended uh a podcast by a GP friend of mine a little while ago that I got absolutely hooked on um it's called the telepathy tapes. Okay and it's fascinating I mean the name kind of gives it away slightly should have seen that coming shouldn't I it is about the concept that human beings do have an innate ability to be telepathic and it goes through the very so bear in mind this was recommended to me by a GP yes uh friend it is going through the scientific evidence that this actually happens right and as a scientist at heart I was really ripped by this concept and it does not I'm I mean I'm I'm slightly bemused by the fact I'm even saying this out loud but it it doesn't sound infeasible when you listen to the evidence. Yeah I love it.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

That's fantastic. The tele telepathy tapes is telepathy tapes. I'll have to look that up thank you very much. And thank you even more for coming on and sharing tremendous stories about your remarkable career and your life in general and very best of luck with the next chapter. Thank you so much Paul lovely lovely to see you join me next time on the Amber Moment where we'll be hearing another story of another remarkable career. Until then