Mark Denton Esq - Part 1

Mark is an artist and all-round creative person. Here, he talks about discovering his "party trick"; carrying a pencil and paper; the great influence of telly and comics; how a playground phrase became a piece of work exhibited in the Royal Academy; a sneaky debut ad, immediately landing awards and winding up at BBH; Claire the Clairvoyant; working on Christmas Day; and rug tufting.

Believe me. You do not want to miss this.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello and welcome to the Amber Moment, a podcast that tells stories of remarkable careers. My name's Paul Howard. Joining me today is the artist and creative person Mark Denton Esquire. Now, usually at this point I give a little rundown of my esteemed guest's career and achievements. But on this occasion, by way of introduction, I'm going to read out a few selected facts and quotes about Mark. Number one, under specialities, he lists spotting talent, then standing next to it. Number two, under top skills, he says looking busy. Number three, while a director at Therapy Films, he says he made a ton of money and then spent it all on publishing a Mexican wrestling book. Number four, while at his own agency, Simon Palmer, Denton, Clemo and Johnson, he says he won more awards than anyone else, then got fired. Number five, while at Low Howard's Pink, he says he was the brains behind the UK's biggest ever car launch. On the other hand, shot a very expensive Heineken commercial that got thrown in the bin. Number six, he's the forty-seventh most influential person in advertising. And number seven, he says, has own teeth and hair. Mark, thanks for being there. How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 1:21

I'm good. I'm good. And that all yeah, that's all true. All checked out. Most most of uh most of my LinkedIn profile then. Yeah. Why embellish the truth when you can tell the truth? Yeah. You know, on LinkedIn, a lot of people buff up their CVs a little bit, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Oh well, actually, the dirty laundry is a lot more interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I like the brutal honesty, and it certainly is a very different LinkedIn profile, where as you rightly point out, I nicked most of that stuff from. So, as I think you know, what I'm trying to do here on the amber moment is to tell some great stories. And, you know, we we met we had a meeting recently, a a light from production meeting, should we call it, and by God, I would say you've got some great stories. So I think I'm gonna start by asking you, you know, if every story has its beginning, and every hero of every story, that is you for the purposes of today, has his or her origin story. So I'd love it if you could start by telling us a little bit about your background, your childhood, upbringing, education, and any early influences you might have had.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Well, despite my acquired media accent, I'm quite common. I was born in South London, Old Woolwich Road, Greenwich. My old man had a scrapyard, he had two scrapyards, one uh one in Peckham and one in Camber. Well, he had one north of the river as well, somewhere, but I I don't think anyone knows where that was.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Lost to the mists of time.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Yeah, and uh I think I was quite creative as a kid. I used to like drawing a lot. Uh never thought about a job in advertising at all, because adverts were just these things that I loved on the telly.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Because we had you know, because the old man had a scrapyard, we had a t we had a tally when a lot of my mates didn't.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Uh so uh I I you know I love I loved adverts when I was a kid, but uh never ever thought about who wrote them.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

So that wasn't it certainly when I left school, it it was nowhere near my list of things I wanted to do as a career.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

I thought, well, I'm a bit handy. I I didn't have enough O levels to get into art school. So I thought I'd be a hairdresser or a panel beater and sprayer.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Something with my hands.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Yeah. When because you mentioned uh you you knew from quite early that you liked drawing. Can you remember a really early memory of that? When when and how did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Uh well, do you know, back before um mobile phones and and laptops and things? It's a way of keeping keeping kids quiet, wasn't it? Give them a pen pencil and a bit of paper.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Or yeah, give them a bit of paper and it stops them drawing on the wallpaper.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah, they do they still they still do that in Pizza Express, don't they? Small kids, yeah, have this in a box of crayons.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

So uh I'm not saying that stopped me from drawing on the wallpaper, but yeah, I don't I I like drawing. You know, I I can remember early on I was drawing very popular. Pirates were very popular when I was a kid, and skulls, yeah, or skellingtons, as we would have called them. Yeah, yeah, there would have been a skellington.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Did you draw a lot of skellingtons as a kid then?

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Oh, all the time. That was my speciality, really. Skelling tons, pirates, skeletons, yeah. T shirt on, yeah, and a pirate's hat with a skull on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

So how how did all how did all of this um early experience, and maybe you can talk a bit about going to school and all those sorts of things, and how did that sort of lead you to where you sort of took off in your career?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Well, do you know, you know, when you learn your first party trick, everyone's everyone can do something. I wasn't that great at school, um, especially maths, anything maths like I wasn't good at. I like history and I like I liked doing English. Yeah. Oh, brilliant in the class. And it got me into trouble a few times, but also I got all all of the kids laughing.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

So making other other people laugh and getting patted on the head because you've drawn a good picture, they were my two-party tricks, yes, really. So, and I never thought anything of it. Yeah, of course, making up funny stories and drawing stuff, you know, that was my uh way into advertising eventually. Yeah, but I didn't I didn't have enough O levels to get into art school. And I was uh polishing my scooter on the drive because 1969 I was a skinhead boy, out of choice, because I had hair then, yeah. Um out of choice, 69, that was the fashion. I got into fashion uh 13, 12, 13, something like that. Yeah, and um of course uh skinheads were like mods with short hair, really. Uh so scooters were a big thing, and uh, unlike you know, your mods were more likely to have a Vespa. Certainly, when I was 13, a Lambretta was the thing to have.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

I ended up with a Lambretta, as soon as I hit 16, Lambretta SX 200, right? The world's finest scooter. I'm on my dad's drive polishing it. This bloke on a moped pulls up and starts talking to me. I like a chat because he likes a scooter.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I like a chat, and I'm talking to him, and I said, Yeah, it was that summer just before you you go and get your first job. Yeah, and he said, Well, I'm going to art college. I said, Well, I couldn't get in, you know, I didn't have enough O levels. He said, Well, I'm going to an art college for thick people. You only need three O levels to get in. And I went to his art college that he was going to. Just the Ravensborn School of Vocational Studies.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Right. How did you just tip up then? Say, hello, I've got three O levels. Can you let me let me in?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Well, yeah, I went for an interview and uh got in.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Brilliant. Who was this person? Are you still in touch with this person on your drive?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Duncan Rabin, his name is. He ended up being a uh an infamous, I could say famous for a minute, but infamous paparazzi photographer.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Did he?

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah. So uh he he got on the front of the news of the world for annoying Princess Die back in the day. And uh he really was you know, he really was within that circle, he was quite famous. As far as he he was fearless and he just used to break into places that he could get into places other people couldn't, and he do he was like a spy. You you know, he'd he'd dress up in different outfits in order to get past security.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Sounds like the milk tray man or something.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

No, he was like he was like a milk tray with a camera, with a camera, yeah. That's just what he was like.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Uh a no milk tray. But Duncan, I still see him occasionally, he still gets into a lot of trouble. So if I'm if I'm fancying a bit of adventure, I'll give him a ring.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah, got to be in the right mood, I should imagine.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Oh, it's because he still does outrageous stuff. He used to get us into lots of trouble in discos when I was a boy.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

I'll bet. So Duncan is responsible, at least partly, for you for you ending up at that art college. Take it from there, what happened from there?

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Well, got into art college. Again, I I did this, it was a diploma in graphic design. Didn't really do much about graphic design. I didn't do much anyway. I was too busy clubbing and causing trouble. Worked hard the last six months. I was there. It was only a three-month course for this certificate that no one's ever looked at.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

And uh learned about practical stuff like photography, paste-up, yeah, architectural drawing, three-point perspective or four-point perspective, whatever how many points in perspective there are. It's all like with slide rules and it was like maths again, so I wasn't very good at that. Yeah, and uh I saw a job advertising the back of campaign, wanted assistant art director. I didn't know what it was for. They said you'd have to be doing artwork, and I thought, well, I can do that. So I applied for that and I got it. Small agency in Great Portland Street called Bridge Advertising.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Okay. Yeah. And so so you're in, you're at the sort of start of your your career proper, if you like. And like, we were you conscious at all, having taken that first step on the ladder? Were you to conscious of having uh some sort of long-term plan or mission? Like what what what were you trying to achieve? What got you out of bed in the morning?

SPEAKER_00 9:46

No, I'm laughing because you know, when you say long-term plan, I haven't got a long-term plan now. Why not? I'm nearly 70. Yeah, well, what what happens next? I don't bloody know. And I'm open to I'm really open to anything happening, you know. Um, I can get distracted by any but look, someone waving a bit of silver paper in my peripheral vision, I can get distracted by that. Yeah, you know, so I like learning new stuff. I'm doing lot, you know, now the world's going mad on AI, and I can see how uh seductive that is, and you know, I'm the same as everyone else having a dabble. But I'm also relatively recently, I've done a stand-up comedy course, I've done a comedy improvisation course, I've done a rug tufting course, I've done a bunch of uh screen printing sessions, yeah, portrait drawing, life drawing classes.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Did you say sorry, let me take you back a couple there. Did you say a rug tufting course?

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah, rug tufting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Is that like as it's advertised? Is that what it says?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Well, you get a bit of canvas, you do a design, you've got a tufting gun, you've got loads of wool, you load it up, it's not a machine gun, you tuft the rug. Highly recommended.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

I don't think I've ever used the phrase rug tufting before, but now I'm gonna throw it into conversation all the time.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

As I've mentioned it, I thought, well, I haven't done that for a little while, I want to go back and and do something bigger. Because I I I thought while I did this course, I thought, just as a little side thing, I'm gonna tough myself some eyebrows because yeah, you know, my eyebrows have disappeared a little bit like me quiff. And I thought, if I have a couple of little brown carpet eyebrows, yeah, they would I think that'd be a very useful asset.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

How would you signal surprise with such eyebrows?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Well, I'd just stick them on, you know, and they'll work like real eyebrows, yeah. They'd be like carpet eyebrow wigs.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

So they're the same mobility as as your actual eyebrows, just be made of carpet.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, well, I'm very practical. You know, I'm thinking that you know a bit of double-sided tape and they'd be on there. Yeah. This do you know what? Uh I I'm fully aware that this sounds like a ridiculous conversation, but um it works for me. It's the way that my mind works. Yeah, I think of stupid things like that all the time, and that's why I get distracted, and I think, oh yeah, that'd be good. Yeah, I don't think that's ridiculous. I think, yeah, that'd be good. I've I think I'll do that.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

I think that's great that I I said to you recently when when we met that if you look at your website, I haven't even mentioned this, but your your company, what do we call it? C O I uh sorry, C O Your Toy.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah, because I I was gonna call it it was a production company to start off with. Well, and uh it's developed into this other thing with anyone who looks at the website, it needs updating, it it look, you know, it's creaking, you know, it's like it's like everything around me needs tidying up, yeah. Because I don't get round to doing me tidying my own stuff because I'm too busy doing the next rugtuff project, but it developed into something else where I kind of do anything I fancy from a creative point of view. I like directing. I'm don't I'm believe it or not, I'm directing an AI film at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

I do believe it.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

We're having fun doing that. Me and my creative part current creative partner, Saskia. Uh, we're having a lot of fun doing that. We're looking to launch ourselves as uh co-directors, a director duo, uh which would be great. Um, she's just done a stand-up comedy course herself. A different one. She's funny, a different one. Yeah, and she only told me about it the day. I didn't even know she was doing it. She said, Oh, yeah, I've got I I I sorry I couldn't uh talk to you on the phone last night. I was on my way to me comedy, stand-up comedy. I said, I didn't know you were doing that. And she she uh she she's got this act that she devised for herself where she plays Count Dracula uh uh singing a song on the ukulele.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

That sounds good already.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah, no, there's a comedian it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

There's a comedian I saw the other week um who I think you might like. I don't know if you've heard of him. He's called John Kearns. K-E-A-R-R-N-S.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

I'll write that down and check him out.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

He he wears a wig that has a bald spot incorporated into it and big thick glasses and a big set of false teeth, which sounds like comedy 101, doesn't it? And like the sort of thing you might do when you're three years old. But he's uh he's quite unusual.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

That's why I like the sound of it. Anything that sounds a bit juvenile, I'm in. Yeah, I'm in. So we're talking about the website, and we oh yeah, I was trying to call it modesty films. That was the name of the company. We looked it you know up companies house, whatever, try to register modesty films. Someone already had mod modesty. So I thought, right, okay, let's get the the old Thesaurus, Thesaurus, or whatever it's called out. Coi, uh Modesty, call it. I said that'll do. So it it's I see because I call it because I couldn't get modesty.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Fair enough, and it's a good name, and but I thought it had derived from and I was obviously totally wrong, but you know, when football fans go come on you blues, six year way, but you know, so I thought it's come on you, whoever I'm working with. Do you know what I mean? That sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Well, it it means it means nothing apart from the uh the the joke for me at the time was uh I'm gonna do something that I hadn't really done up to then. I've been you know, I've I've done the work and I and I kept my head down to a certain degree, yeah. And I thought I'm gonna try something different. This might be getting over 20 years ago. I'm gonna try something different. I'm gonna be very immodest. Yeah, I'm gonna be the opposite of modesty, so they'll call it modesty, and I'll start showing off in a way that I'm I'd never done before.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

So again, that was a that was a just a conscious, fun little project.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yeah. Well, I was gonna say the reason I brought up your website in the first place was because uh I wasn't very familiar with it until recently, and when I did go on there, and I said this to you the other day, that it's it looks the visuals that you create, and I can't quite put my finger on why, but they they're just like nothing else that's out there in sort of popular culture. I don't know if you can just talk us through the workings of your brain.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, I've already got a big head, and um that's just making it bigger. I love you saying that, I love it because it's it's very hard to look at yourself and try. You know, I I look at what I do and I think, will anyone else like it? You know, whether it's a bit of art, you know, I I think I understand advertising now, and I think I understand what um after 50 years of doing advertising, yeah. Uh I think I know what uh connect with the punters, and believe it or not, despite the fact that I am getting on a little bit, I like young people. I I mix with more young people than I do with people my own age, and I'm on Instagram uh and TikTok more than I watch the telly, and I watch the telly a lot. Yeah, so uh I try to keep in touch with what's going on and what what makes people laugh now or what entertains them. So I've forgotten where I've got it. When you say it's like nothing else you've seen out there uh in popular culture, I I find it very hard to judge anything I do outside of advertising. Yeah, because if I do something that would be deemed to be art, yeah, because I've got one of my big fat feet in the world of art, yeah, in the world of commercial art, it's bloody interesting. Because I look at what I've done, I think, well, would anyone put that on their wall? Yeah, um, even if they smile at it. I mean, do you know that's the greatest result ever? If you get someone to smile at something, even if they buy it or they don't buy it, that is a result, I think. Yeah, so I'm constantly questioning what I do, and so that's why it's interesting that you say, Oh, it's not quite like anything else.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

It's got, I don't know, that you do lots of kind of portraits and headshots, um, um, you know, and and and they are there's a lot of sort of caricature in there. I find some of it a bit unsettling, it's a bit otherworldly.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Oh, right, okay. I like the sound of that. What do you mean by unsettling? Which what do you find unsettling?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I don't know, like some some of you some of the images where you've got a character and he might it might just have a slightly too long a head. Do you know what I mean? Things like that. Do you know what I mean? It's just it's there's some just weird aspects to it, but it's great.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

I do like odd-looking people. I am mine. Um it's not birds. Distinctive block together. Uh you know, I don't I don't mind being odd. But where does it interesting? They're more interesting, aren't they? Odd looking people. I think so. Well everyone uses handsome people.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Where where does it come from, do you think? That that sort of very particular style that you've got visually, visual style.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Well, from lots of sources, it's because I you know, I was throughout the 60s, I was parked if I didn't have a bit a bit of paper and a pencil in my hand, I was parked in front of the the tell. So I was a real telly addict from from early on. And so um so I know I'd still draw in on a lot of references from old programmes that many people wouldn't even remember nowadays, which is great to me. It's like a treasure trove of great stuff, yeah, that might feel fresh to a new generation because they've never seen it the first time round.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Given you're loving the pilots, you must have been a fan of Captain Pugwash.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

I I love Pug, you know, Captain Pugwash. You know, the likes of Siemens Stains and um and um was it master Master Bates was the other Bates is that all true or is that a myth? I don't know, but it went over the top of my head at the time. I was too young to appreciate that. Yeah, so it you know it might it might be uh a myth. I'd like to think it was real. I'd I'd love to think it was real, but also comics. We had loads of comics. I I I've got two brothers and a sister, and uh between us we had just about every comic going, and so I used to read loads and loads of comics when I was a kid. What your favourites well my favourite by a mile was uh was uh The Valiant. I used to love the Valiant, okay uh which wasn't my comic, it was my brother's comic, but I still I thought still thought that was the best. But I used to uh get American comics too, so early Marvel comics. Oh right. I used to love them, and and DC comics as well. I I used to like them. But we'd get Bino and Dandy and Topper and Beezer. We had a bloody lot Wham, Fantastic, and the you know, one ones that didn't last long, like I'm trying to remember that's a bloody long time ago. Yeah, big one. There was a but there was a a comic called Buster, I used to get that, and then it merged with this super size, it was like it was like uh um sort of broadsheet size. Uh it was called Big One, and then they merged and became Buster and Big One. I remember getting that. But we used to get we used to get there, weren't many we didn't get, even the occasional sensible one like look and learn. We used to get that as well, which wasn't my favorite, too many words in it, not enough pictures, very particular ideas, yeah. All of that stuff influences me now. Yes, yes, and then my favorite, if you're talking about things on my website, my favorite things are coming up with visual ideas, yeah. You know, I look I appreciate a good line and I love the combination of a great visual and a great line, but my very favourite things are visuals that do all of the story tell you all of the story in a simple way.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

And what what examples have you got of that either on your side or just from whenever you're gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Well, do you know I've got you know again, where's this come from? The school playground. Into the Royal Academy. I've been in the Royal Academy four times with four separate bits of art for the summer show. Very, you know, I'm very proud of that.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Uh but one of them was is a road sign, it's a simple road sign.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

And it's got a fork in the road. Uh, so there's a V-shaped fork in the road, and there's a road leading up to it, and a little a little side spur. And at the top it goes milk, milk, and at the bottom is where it points downwards, lemonade. And there's this little side spur that's got the the sign of a factory, a little brown sign of a factory that says chocolate underneath. So it's chocolate factory, is there? So milk, milk, lemonade round the corner, chocolate's made. Where did I hear that? In the playground, yes, in the 1960s. That's logged in one of the many filing cabinets in my bonds.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

And uh, I've dragged it out, put it on a road sign, and ended up in the Royal Academy.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

That is hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

And I and I achieved the image. Well, I was on my way down to uh the coast with the missus, she was driving, and I was just hanging out the window, snapping the signs on my mobile phone.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

And we we we just did a little montage when I got home. Uh so making images has never been easier ever.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Tools that we got at our disposal now, it's never been easier to make a mark.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

And how how do you think that affects you personally, as someone who's sort of made a living out of doing that now that everyone has the access to those tools to do that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Well, you know, to me, I'd see I'm aware of that.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

For me personally, it just makes it more exciting. You know, because I'm you know, I uh was brought up learning and applying the craft of it, and working with lots of very expensive photographers and illustrators and animators and typographers and all the rest of it. But the fact that anyone can do it now doesn't mean to say that everyone's doing good stuff, yeah. Yeah, so so what? We've all got a pair of football boots. Yeah, Pele is better than me, yeah. Yeah, but I've got the same boots, yeah. But Pele's better.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah. So what?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

It reminds me, I'll tell you another time, it's not about me this, but I've got a story that uh that reminded me of. I'll tell you another time. I'm gonna ask you a question now that I ask most of my guests, and it might be your answer might be more difficult to do because you've had such a long and varied career, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Give us a little synopsis of your career. So you talked about how you got into advertising, first of all. So, what's that happened from there? Give us a little potted history of your of your career and sort of how did you get where you got?

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Right again, I said earlier, no long-term plan. Yeah, I've got this job at this small agency, it was it was me and the boss, so that that's how big it was. I was an art worker, so I was doing paste up and let's setting. He used to tell me stories about this flash agency he used to work at called Pritchard Wood, where they had a fancy, talented art director there, yeah, John Webster. So tell me big stories. So I think, oh bloody hell, that's good. Oh, I'd love to do that. Yeah, and uh he got me an interview, uh Mike McCarthy, my old boss, at the Obernette. He knew someone at Leopernette, yeah, ex-prechardwood person, who uh there was an opening in the studio for a visual. So this is pre-computers. You used to have you used to have people who could draw a bit knocking out the layouts uh and the storyboards with magic markers, yep. And so I got a job as a visualiser at the open net, not an art director, but I'd be looking at all of the other art directors who were briefing me to draw up their layouts, thinking I could come up with better stuff than this.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

So I started doing when they could give me a brief to draw a layout, I would do my own version. Yeah, and um, to cut a long story short, so uh I was asked to do a bunch of storyboards for cabbage cream eggs to go into research, and I wrote three of my own scripts. I drew up the storyboards, put my storyboards in the pile of storyboards. The account group and the planners saw them, yeah, these are good. My stuff ended up going into research, and I made my first commercial because my my boss was furious because I wasn't meant to be doing I was gonna say how how did the creative teams react? My two bosses, Norman and Bob, they were not happy at all. Bob was livid because I ended up with this bloody great big 16th century street scene bit had been built in Shepperton, yeah. Uh for my commercial, yeah. Uh, and that ended up getting into DNA D, won me first arrow, wow, um, and got effectively got me a job at BBH because this uh stranger what wandered in to onto the set from the from the stage next door, his name was Chris Palmer. Yeah, he was at BBH. He said, Look, this is fantastic. Yeah, he said, I'm uh you know, I need a new art director, you know, you know, I'm I'm part of partner less from from a month, you know, next month or whatever, because he was working with John Eggerty at the time. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 27:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

John's uh John's original partner, Barbara Noakes, she was coming back from maternity leave. So Chris was he needed a new partner. So he's thinking me, a visualizer, is actually a proper art director because I've got this big fancy set.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

I got a job at BBH, and then you know, and four years later, I had my own agency.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

So just to recap before we move on, which we undoubtedly shall, this is the first thing you'd ever written, the first commercial you'd ever made, and you got it made by sneaking into a pile of research material. Yeah. And and that one you something an hour from DNA D. Yeah. And it gets you this. Okay, good. I just wanted to just make sure I've got all that right. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

So I was charging my arm and it paid off.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Okay, yeah. So it got kind of got me fired, but it didn't got you fired into the stratosphere at BBH.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

So I thought, great, I'm an art director now, and I'm at the sexiest agency in town, and BBH was the sexiest agency in town at the time, and met this great bloke, Chris Palmer, who's every bit as enthusiastic um mad as I was, in so far as I was, I think I was 28 by then. It takes me 28 till 28 to get that far. And I thought, well, I've got to make up, I'm I'm getting on. I I've got to make up for lost time.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

I've been a visualiser all these years and an art worker. I've got to I've got to make a mark. And Chris had been a dispatch rider.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

He's got a different story, but it's amazing how he got his first job working with John Eggerty from being a dispatch rider. And he and he was 29.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

So the first week we started working together, I did what I do, I did then, whenever anything noteworthy happened in my life. I went to see my clairvoyant, Madam Claire of Catford.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

So I thought this would be good. Find out what happens next. Bit nervous about going to BBH, pretending I was an uh an experienced art director. Anyway, Chris said he heard me making the phone call. He didn't know me. It was the first week we'd work together. He said, That sounds good. I said, Yes, good night. Out, you go and have your fortune read, have a curry afterwards, chat about it. It's good. He said, Oh, well, book me up. Anyway, we both went down there.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Claire said, I go in first. Claire says, You've just met someone really significant. I see you in front of the camera. I see you behind the camera. You're gonna have your name over the door. And I said, What do you mean? She said, You're gonna have to go into business together. And Claire said that the first week we worked together, we ended up with our own agency. Was it three and a half years later? Yeah. Was it four years later? I don't know. It was it felt like a blink of an eye, and we had our own agency.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Good old Claire, the clairvoyant.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Yeah. She never told me I was gonna get fired six and a half years after we set it up. But hey, it's all it's all worked out quite well.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

It's one of those clairvoys that just gives you the good news, I guess. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Well, yeah, uh, I won't tell you the bad bits she told me because she did tell me a few bad bits, but she left a bit out about me getting fired.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

So have a little hum. If it's not too painful, how did that all come about that that culminated in your in your getting fired?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Well, I'll tell you, but I I have to have a lawyer present.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Oh, okay. No, maybe not then. No, that's fine. Obviously.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

And also it's boring, you know, it's the past, it's boring, it's just political stuff, that's all. Yeah, it's young, stupid people. You know, it's my analysis of it now in a sentence.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Jump forward then, Mark. What happened after that?

SPEAKER_00 30:59

I had a fantastic hand of cards that I played badly. But I learned some. I learned something for it. My it's a great bit of advice that I got from my lawyer. I'd never been to court before, I'd never, yeah, never, I'd never hired a lawyer before. But first meeting, he said, don't confuse the law with justice.

SPEAKER_03 31:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

I thought that's good. I remember all the time, yeah, all this time later. It's a good time. So that aside, you know, it all worked out very, very well. And it was like it was like the fastest apprenticeship, you know, because I want you know, I'd only been an art director five minutes, let alone manage anything, manage other creative people. Bloody hell, how'd you do that?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

That's I always found that interesting, actually, that that move, and it happens to lots of creative teams and creative people within advertising, I'm sure other industries as well. That that you you do the work, you're good at the work, you're good at creating whatever it is you create, and then all of a sudden you get into a managerial position, and people assume you're gonna be as good at that as you were at doing the work. So, how did that work for you?

SPEAKER_00 32:04

It worked out all right. Almost almost, if not everyone, everyone who worked for for me got a pencil. Uh um, and that's it was back when it was hard to win a pencil, it was hard then. And I think uh and um you know I don't want to exaggerate, I think there might be one or two who didn't get a pencil, but the majority of them did, most of them did. And yeah, for a for a short while we were ad for ad, we were the most awarded agency in town.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Incredible stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

So we did all we did all right on that front.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Let's return to the notion of modesty and being coy or not, because I'm gonna ask you to be very immodest now, because I want you to think about over the course of your career, you've obviously had great success and helped others to have great success. So I want you to think about what skills or knowledge or talents or character traits you have that have helped you to be successful, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Okay, it's funny, you know, it's I was talking about party tricks earlier, and this was my party trick, and I'd I turn up earlier than everyone, and I wouldn't go home until the job was done. So that was my party trick. Yeah, and I met someone in Chris Palmer who was exactly the same as me. So we would go in on Christmas Day. We'd be there, we'd be in the agency at Christmas Day work.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Why why were you in on Christmas Day?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

And uh, I think of that six and a half years that I was in the agency, yeah, I only had 10 days holiday. Wow. In in total, and I'm including bank holidays in that as well. Wow. Because and I'm I'm not a martyr, I've never been a martyr, I just like doing things I I like doing, yeah. And in fact, I'm quite lazy, right? I don't like doing things I don't like doing, so I like doing it, you know. Do you want to go back home on Christmas Day for the annual Christmas argument, or do you want to go into the office with your creative mate and have a right laugh, scribbling funny things on paper and probably making them? Yeah, there's no contests there, so it's easy.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

So I, and I'm sure many people listening to this will will think what what a luck to to have something that you do for a living. That is it, is it like is it overblown to call it a vocation? Because you genuinely it's like a calling, no.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

I just like you know, I just like doing be you know, be creative. Clap you know, it's a there's a bit of paper, think of a funny idea, yeah. It's more fun doing that than not doing it, and as the immodest thing, and I think this is the truth, other people might tell you otherwise. I find it really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really easy.

unknown 35:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Just recently I've got invited to be in part of a uh 23 different artists, I think it was, uh, an art show. And the uh the the brief was uh 50 years of punk. They asked me for one piece of art. I gave them five, yeah, fully finished bits of art. I could have given them a dozen, I had a dozen ideas that I didn't I would have loved to have made them all, I just didn't have time. So I gave them five instead of one.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

And that was the brief, was it just fifty years of punk?

SPEAKER_00 35:33

50 years of punk. What a brief, what a tantalizing brief, yeah. And coming up with a dozen ideas for that was not odd. I'm not saying they were all great ideas, but I had a dozen that I wanted to make, and that's for me, that's the only that's my only guide, really. If I to a scribble on a bit of paper, if I we're talking on Zoom now, so you can see me and I'll see you. If I swiveled the uh laptop round, you'd see loads of box files over there. Yeah, they're full of bits of paper with my scribbles on.

SPEAKER_03 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

I've got tons of tons and tons of them. I do them every day, and sometimes I'm drawn to make them real.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Join me next time on the Amber Moment for more tales from the wonderful brain of Mark Denton Esquire. Until then, stay amber.