WEBVTT 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:35.280 Hello everybody and welcome to Lambda, the LGBT and Antiquity Podcast, your home for all things LGBT in the ancient world. 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:40.479 I'm your host, Dominica Raven, episode 12, Kaibalay the Intersex. 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:48.799 Once the great sky god of the Phrygians spilled his seed on the slopes of Mount Agdistus. 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:52.479 This resulted in a remarkable metamorphosis. 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:55.759 The seed became a strange-looking stone. 00:00:56.000 --> 00:01:02.560 Stones of this sort, which have a touch of the divine in them, are actually given sentience and have a conscious soul. 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:09.120 This figure was called the Agdistus, who was a divinity in their own right. 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:19.040 Agdistus was created as a synthesis of male and female, identified by an intersex condition resulting in a manifestation of male and female genitals. 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:28.959 Now all the other gods, especially the Sky Father himself, were absolutely terrified by this unexpected body now roaming in the mountains. 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:34.879 The gods were fundamentally frightened by this manifestation of male and female in one body. 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:41.920 Possessing both male and female attributes was an attack on the social and the natural orders at once. 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:51.040 Agdistus was not necessarily in male or female categories and therefore could not properly play male or female social roles. 00:01:51.280 --> 00:02:00.480 Agdistus possessed male and female genitals, so they could potentially recreate asexually without the need of any partners. 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:09.599 So the gods decided to castrate the Agdistus, who remember was the offspring of the Sky Father directly. 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:14.400 They publicly exposed and removed one set of their genitals. 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:22.080 This castrated figure was renamed Chibalay, also called Rea, the mother of the gods. 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:28.719 Kaibele is a wild intersex deity who comes from Phrygia, modern Turkey. 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:38.319 The world they inhabit is first and foremost a world of wild women who dwell in the wild spaces where things do not operate by conventional rules. 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:52.400 In this world, things are not as they're meant to be in standard heteronormative Greco-Roman society. 00:02:52.719 --> 00:03:02.000 This dynamic is represented visually when the lion pulls a chariot like a horse, or when rivers flow spontaneously out of rocks. 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:12.960 They already existed well outside the normal human interaction, but this is taken even further when their sexuality and sexual characteristics are taken into account. 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:23.199 Being as this story is a Phrygian one and not a standard Greco-Roman myth, there is a bit of interpretation necessary for the story which comes down to us. 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:32.319 The stories we have access to are all of them interpreted through Greek authors living during the Roman Empire. 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:41.039 The Agdistus was created by the Phrygian Sky Father, who can be thought of as Uranus or as Zeus. 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:49.919 When the Sky Father cast his seed onto the earth, it created this intersex stone at the summit of Mount Agdistos. 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:57.039 So even from the beginning, there is something unconventional about the sexual creation of this deity. 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:05.759 Agdistus was born with an intersex condition which resulted in the manifestation of both male and female sexual organs at the same time. 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:15.039 Since this was one of the most outwardly obvious intersex manifestations, this is the one we most commonly get in classical literature. 00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:18.720 For the Greeks and the Romans, it was something to be feared. 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:25.360 This is why the very gods themselves were fearful of the egistus when they were born. 00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:33.519 The gods were so terrified that they had to ensure their body conformed to proper expectations. 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:42.079 The Skyfather first publicly exposed, then assaulted with forced sexual modification, his own kin. 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:51.360 The eggistus is Chibele, or Rea, so the Sky Father, if he is Uranus, is actually assaulting his own offspring. 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:56.160 Or, if the Skyfather is Zeus, he's attacking his own forbearer. 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.839 Either way, the violence is directed at their own kin. 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:09.600 In this way, the story of Aggistos parallels the story of Uranus, who was conceived as male, then castrated by Kronos the Titan. 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:17.040 These stories create an archetype for how intersex people are to be treated in the human world. 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:22.720 But the question remains, why were the gods so fearful of this Agdistos? 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:34.639 If you'll remember from our discussion of Dionysus, beings who were able to manifest both male and female were able to manifest an inconceivable amount of power. 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:44.639 The ancient mind and imagination, as well as the ancient divine sphere, found something unnerving in their potential to challenge the social order. 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:52.240 For everything we've ever discussed on this podcast, the ancient world is excruciatingly heteronormative. 00:05:52.399 --> 00:06:02.319 There were, of course, acceptable ranges from the admirable heroic love and an acceptable amount of homoeroticism at different points in one's life. 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:12.639 However, people who went too far were viewed with extreme suspicion precisely because they were attempting to operate outside the default settings in ancient society. 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:18.720 In the case of Dionysus, it represented a conscious rejection of societal heteronormativity. 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:23.199 In the case of Attis, it reflected a choice to transition genders. 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:29.439 In the case of Chibalae, it was an innate inborn property of their own life. 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:40.399 Yet all of these different manifestations of gender and sexual nonconformity, even among the deathless gods, were viewed with suspicion and met with outrageous violence. 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:50.000 Though it was the spilled seed of the sky god himself that birthed Eggistus, there was something unnerving about what it created. 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:58.720 As with the intersex deity Phanes, it was precisely the capability of mutual self-procreation that was so unnerving. 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:06.639 Phanes and Egdistos could create life without the need for intercourse or additional partners. 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:11.839 Remember, there is a social contract at work with procreation. 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:22.560 Marriage, as we've said before, is a business arrangement made between two households, and child rearing is a way to continue the social contract with the community. 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:28.079 Sexual reproduction is the only possible way we can produce a new citizen. 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:42.399 There were complex laws in the ancient world, which varied by city, state, nation, and era, which were designed to keep the proper citizenship roles undiluted, as well as the societal roles they were meant to hold in the community. 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:52.560 In democratic Athens or Thebes, or the Republic of Rome, having people at different social ranks playing different social roles was critical. 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:58.480 In the same way, Sparta required an infinite supply of new citizen warriors to fill its armies. 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:05.199 In all of these systems, societal trouble follows their citizenship rules starting to break down. 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:10.480 Sparta failed to refill its famous armies due to the intense social birth control. 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:25.759 Rome could no longer fill its legions with free-born property-owning citizens, and so they transitioned to a professional army in the late republic, and Athens was no longer able to sustain the flourishing city it had built. 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:38.159 The extent to which conservative backlash against the diluting of real citizenship with foreigners actually led to the political instability is a matter for another time. 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:49.360 For now, the key is that sexual reproduction was hugely important to maintain that social contract between the families and the cohesion of the entire community. 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:55.840 This is why procreation by oneself had the potential to alter the ancient world. 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:03.039 Ultimately, an intersex condition reflected a potential threat to the entire social order. 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.080 The same appears to have been true in the divine realm. 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:13.840 Though there were spaces for such intersex deities, they were still viewed as other in the ancient world religions. 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.279 There is a secondary way this story could be read. 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:26.159 The implication of the wording implies that this Sky Father, who could be associated with Uranus, is actually referring to Zeus. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.600 If we read the story like this, it becomes somehow even more terrifying. 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:37.919 Zeus assaulted his own forebear with public exposure and physical assault. 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:46.399 This reading of the story shows how important it was to maintain the social order, even at the expense of one's own familial connections. 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:56.240 The simple possibility that this egistos could have reproduced asexually was enough of a threat that Zeus had to act. 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:07.120 Ultimately, whether it was Uranus or Zeus, the castrated Agistos becomes Chibalae, who was associated with the mother of the gods, Rea. 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.399 It is a bit ironic then that the story does not end here. 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:15.759 From the castrated bits that were cast onto the ground, an almond tree grew. 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:22.000 Even the act of deforming Agistus' body did not impact their overall fertility. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:30.399 The almond tree is not infrequently associated with male fertility and can even be used euphemistically to represent testicles. 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:42.159 So the outrage committed by Zeus or Uranus did not actually impact the fertility of Aegistos, it just changed the form the fertility took. 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:47.440 This is best manifested by an immaculate conception occurring some years later. 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:55.759 Sangarios, one of the daughters of the river called Naides, or freshwater nymphs, collected almonds from that very tree. 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:08.000 Ancient women's garments varied significantly over the years, but a common trend is that they generally contained many layers of clothing, starting with an overdress and going all the way down to multiple layers of undergarments. 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:17.759 So this nymph collected the almonds and stored them in one of the inner layers of the mantle, meaning that the almonds were in direct contact with her chest. 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:21.840 When they touched the skin, the almonds disappear. 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:29.679 So great was the latent fertility in these almonds, they impregnated the nymph on the spot. 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:35.440 The resulting child was Attis, the future bride of Kybele from a few weeks ago. 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:46.000 Attis was exposed as a child when the nymph realized in horror that just like Aegistus, Attis had been born with an intersex condition. 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:55.120 Though the child had been exposed in the mountains, a goat attended Attis until Attis grew and became an adult. 00:11:55.840 --> 00:12:09.360 So within the context of this story, the attempted castration and removal of the Aegistos' fertility actually facilitated the birth of Attis. 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.720 So now we can see the stories of Attis and Chibalae were linked all along. 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:18.799 They are literally two facets of the same entity. 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:26.399 One intersex deity is female coded and one who is male coded, at least to start. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:32.559 Importantly, both of them would have been considered female coded by the end. 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:46.559 It's important to note here that generally speaking, intersex conditions made one not fully male or female in the ancient world, so by default, they were considered effeminized in many situations. 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:56.240 This is why medical texts as well as historic documents and even legal discussions often refer to these types of people largely in feminine verbiage. 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:01.679 When there is any sexual ambiguity, the default is generally feminine. 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:06.399 This is why Attis and Kybele are feminine coded in the story. 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:17.120 Thus, what is initially based around biases and ancient misinterpretation of intersex conditions actually shows queer relationships in the past. 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:24.080 In the story of the egdistus, we see an intersex deity who is perceived as a great threat. 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:34.240 The threat is principally to the social order, as things like marriage, child rearing, and societal bonds are threatened by the inclusion of intersex folks. 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:48.000 So the great sky god, be he Zeus or Uranus, exposed the Eggdistus and then publicly corrected this perceived threat by publicly reassigning genital expressions. 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:54.399 As shocking as this narrative may be, it plays out many times in the ancient world. 00:13:54.639 --> 00:14:01.279 Pretty much every time we discuss an intersex condition in antiquity, this dynamic is present. 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:09.600 People would publicly expose their own family members if it meant being seen as ritually pious or upholding the social order. 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:17.919 Not infrequently these stories end with public reassignment or with the exposure of a newborn child. 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:26.480 What always stands out to me is that these people, whatever the nature of their intersex condition, are seen as powerful. 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:41.519 Because they contain attributes of both male and female, often characterized by visual external traits, intersex people are feared for the knowledge they have, as much for the potential attack on the social order. 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:52.879 The language used in these stories seems to indicate that the presence of male and female genital attributes was seen as an act of prideful hubris before the gods. 00:14:53.200 --> 00:15:01.279 Simply possessing this type of knowledge was something normal humans and even divine manifestations were never meant to know. 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:21.360 So while these stories seem to present a very violent and publicly voyeuristic humiliation, this act of societally sanctioned violence is predicated on the assumption that these types of intersex conditions reflect a power which is outside of the ability of even Zeus or Uranus to control. 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.519 I choose to read this as a statement of strength. 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:42.720 Intersex folks are strong in ways that the average person can only kind of grasp, as so often happens with bodily disabilities, infirmities, or just plain failure to conform to values and expectations. 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:46.720 People are frightened by what they do not understand. 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:52.159 To quote Joseph Merrick, himself derided as the elephant man. 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:56.960 Next time we're going to explore the narrative of Athena. 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:08.639 Like Artemis, Athena is unwed, but the key difference is that Athena is frequently shown in a gendered expression which is completely outside of societal expectations. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:17.840 Athena is shown excelling in conflict, battle strategies, and public speaking, all of which are male pursuits in antiquity. 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:32.159 Athena also excels at homemaking tasks such as weaving and handiwork, as well as playing integral roles in nurturing young warriors in coming of age, which are female tasks in the ancient world. 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:45.679 In both cases, Athena takes these pursuits to their zenith, often described as the greatest weaver in the universe, and habitually defeating the god of war, Ares himself. 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:55.039 So Athena operates outside of traditional gender binaries, making them an excellent candidate for a non-binary interpretation. 00:16:56.240 --> 00:16:59.120 There won't actually be a new episode next Monday. 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:03.919 Athena the non binary is planned to be live on the twenty fifth of May. 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:05.839 See you in two weeks. 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:18.319 Notes and comments. 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:26.480 The main source of information on the Agdistos comes from Pausanias, the second century AD traveler. 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:35.680 He was a Greek-speaking geographer who wrote an extensive guidebook and travelogue to the wonders of Greece, curated for wealthy Roman tourists. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:44.240 He often describes the location of significant historic events, religious sites, and pilgrimage locations throughout the Greek-speaking East. 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:52.400 He describes the religious site and relays the story of Agdistus in Book 10, chapter 3, section 12. 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:56.799 The other source of information comes from another geographer named Strabo. 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.640 He was also a Greek geographer who wrote in the first century AD. 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:05.440 He attempted to describe the world known to Greek and Roman scholars at the time. 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:10.960 He often explains significant religious locations and importantly how they all connect together. 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:29.039 He directly ties Agdistus to Chaibalae in Book 10, chapter 3, section 12, and he describes the shrine at Piscinus on the slopes of Mount Agdistus, also called Mount Dindimus, at Book 12, Section 5, number 3. 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:39.599 Sometimes you may read that Hermes castrated Agdistus, or that Dionysus got the Agdistus drunk and then castrated them. 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:46.799 However, I cannot find any reference to these versions of the story which genuinely date to antiquity. 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:53.279 In fact, there are precious few references to the Agdistus at all from any Greek or Roman authors. 00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:04.720 Later artists, especially during the Renaissance, were fascinated with intersex conditions, often commodifying and sexualizing them for the sake of art and poetry. 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:08.640 This is likely the origin of these modern narratives. 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:19.920 The same is likely true of the version where Agdistus is a lawless savage showing no respect for the other gods and thus deserving of the assault and public mutilation. 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:26.000 It appears no such genuine narrative comes down to us from antiquity. 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:28.000 That's all for this week, folks. 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:32.640 We'll see you in two weeks for our discussion of Athena the non binary.