Pickleball In Prison

What if pickleball could change lives… inside prison walls?

In this episode of Kitchen Conversations, I sit down with Roger BelAIr, the founder of PICL, a movement doing something almost impossible.

He is bringing pickleball into prisons.

And what’s happening inside those walls is nothing short of remarkable.

From maximum security facilities to some of the toughest institutions in North America, Roger BelAIr is using the game we love to reduce violence, build connection, and give people something many haven’t felt in years…

Hope.

What started as a simple idea after watching a 60 Minutes episode has grown into a movement now active in 25 states, 81 facilities, and supported by over 150 volunteers teaching the game behind bars.

And the results?

Inmates who wouldn’t even speak to each other are now playing together.

Disciplinary issues are dropping.

Lives are changing.

At one point, gang members who wouldn’t even talk were suddenly competing side by side on the same court.

This is bigger than pickleball.

🔥 In this episode, we dive into:

• How pickleball is transforming prison culture
• The unbelievable origin story of PICL
• Why this game works where other programs fail
• The 4 simple rules that changed everything
• The role of community in reducing reoffending
• Real stories from inside prison walls

🌎 Learn more about PICL (Pickleball for the Incarcerated Community League):

👉 https://www.picleague.org/

👉   / picl-pickleball  

🎬 Documentary mentioned in this episode:

👉 Pickleball and Prisons https://www.pickleballinprison.c...


🎙️ About Kitchen Conversations:

This is not an interview.
This is a courtside conversation.

Real stories. Real people.
More than dinks, drops, and drives.
Stories from behind the paddle.

🏓 If this episode hits you:

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Because this is what the game is really about.

🔖 Hashtags:

#Pickleball
#PICL
#RogerBelAIr
#PickleballInPrison
#SecondChances
#SportsForChange
#KitchenConversations
#PickleballCommunity
#HumanStories
#PrisonReform
#Inspiration
#GrowthMindset

And that wraps up this episode of Kitchen Conversations.

If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone who loves the game as much as you do.

And if you want the full experience, including the visuals, head over to YouTube and watch the episode at

https://www.youtube.com/@KitchenConversationspodcast

Or search Kitchen Conversations Pickleball Podcast

That’s where these stories really come to life.

You’ll also find links and show notes in the episode description.

Until next time…

more than dinks, drops and drives…

these are stories from behind the paddle.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, and welcome to the podcast. Welcome to Kitchen Conversations. We've got a pretty simple goal. We're hoping each episode inspires just one person to pick up a pickleball paddle and try the game for the very first time. And today's guest has done that not for one or two people, but literally for thousands of people. He's also done it behind bars. Roger Bel Air has started a not-for-profit organization called PICL. You'll find out what that stands for in today's episode. But Roger has taken pickleball to prison where he's teaching inmates the game that you and I love so much, and it's making a big difference. You'll hear about the success of that organization. You'll hear about how many institutions they're involved in. And you're going to come away from this with a totally new appreciation for the game we love. Enjoy Roger Belair on today's episode of Kitchen Conversations. Well, Roger, welcome to the podcast and thank you for being here. I can't uh tell you how thrilling it is to finally meet. We've been chatting back and forth a little bit for a couple of weeks now, and uh I wanted to start by thanking you for your generosity in being here and being part of the podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Oh, thank you, Mike. I'm really looking forward to this. It's a great story, and I love to just share it with other people.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, it is quite a story, Roger. It really is. I mean, we come into these stories every once in a while in our lives, and you really have to pause. And I really did have to pause when I bumped into yours. When I started the podcast back in January, I started researching and researching and, you know, looking for guests that I thought might make for interesting content. And when I bumped into your story, it was a story that, you know, to be quite frank, Roger, I had a hard time understanding. I the passion behind the project and the moment that it happened with that 60 Minutes episode, which is now obviously quite famous and you've talked about it extensively, it really touched me. It really touched me in a way that I found quite interesting. Now I'm in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. Now, at one point, we were the prison capital of Canada. We had a P for W, we had a prison for women, we have some very famous institutions that have made history in the penal system for riots and uh outbreaks. And so I come from a prison town. And so maybe part of my attraction to your story and interest in your story comes perhaps from growing up here and kind of being maybe closer to that than than than some others. But uh I just find the work that you're doing to be beyond fascinating, and I'm excited to talk about it. So thank you again for being here.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, it's really interesting about life, isn't it? About how you go down different paths and you end up someplace that you say, How in the world did I get here? How that happened. It wasn't planned, it wasn't expected, but no, um, you know, that's that's just part of what happens in life.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

It does. And you know, Roger, I think we'll touch on this at some point um for sure. One wrong decision, you know, can change your life. One wrong decision, you know, one extra beer at the bar tonight. Oh, you know, it's it's that simple. It's that simple. It really is.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

And I've seen that over and over again. Some really quality people that made a poor choice, and boy, they they they really impacted their life.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah. Well, listen, we're gonna get into all of that and more today. And I really appreciate this. If you don't mind, I would like to break today's conversation into three separate buckets. And bucket number one is I'd like you to give the audience and give myself a brief overview of your background, your professional career, Roger. I think it's important for us to understand the work that you did prior to the work that you're doing. And the second bucket is just to hear your passion for the game of pickleball. I'd like to touch on that briefly. You know, did the game find you or did you find the game? And then subsequently, and most importantly, the work that you're doing with PICL. And um, yeah, I can't wait to get into that. So can we start by indulging us in a story about your background? I I know you've got a business background, and uh, I come from a small business background, but a business background nonetheless. So could we please start with a bit of a story on that?

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Well, one thing we have in common is we both came from a uh a family that had a small business. And, you know, and I think that's you know, that's that's something we we share, and it gives us a perspective about the challenges of running a small business. I um I I decided to become a bean counter, a banker, and I went to work for Seattle First National Bank, which was the largest bank in the Pacific Northwest, and I did quite well. And I ended up being running personal banking for the head office. And so um that was my career. But Mike, I was really driven when I was young, you know, and maybe because we didn't have much money growing up, I achieve a certain amount of financial security. I'm not in the materialistic sense of buying this and that, but just just creating a little bit of again, financial security. So I started um a small business on the outside, an investment company. We were very blessed, we were right place, right time. And believe it or not, in 1984, this investment company I had with one other guy ended up being profiled on the cover story of Money Magazine.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

No way. Well, it it turned into something pretty special then, didn't it?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Well, it really did. We had a good idea, but we did made some rights, and you know, publicity changes lives. It really moves the needle. And uh so I had this banking career, but all of a sudden I'm making more money on the outside. And um so I decided to do my investments full time. But because that money uh money magazine article, I got a call from Doubleday out in New York. And they said I've thought about writing a book. Well, my my first my first reaction, I I don't even write my mother. I can't write a book.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

What am I doing writing a book? I can't write a letter.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

That's right. And they said, Well, we can get you some help. You know, some of these athletes are not real real capable. And so I sat down, and you're old enough to remember this. It was called a typewriter.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

I had one. I had one.

unknown 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

And so I punched this thing out on a typewriter and sent it in and said, This is good. This is this is good. Well, you know, we'll fine-tune it a little bit. It came out, it sold quite well, and then American Management Association approached me and said, Write a book for how to borrow money from a banker. Well, that's a good novel idea. I wrote that, it sold quite well. And then, you know, it's it's just life of what some things that can happen. I run into a guy at a party, and we're sitting there chatting, and he has kind of a famous name, and I told him what I did. And he said, Let me introduce you to my agent. You should be speaking at business conventions. Well, I could speak. I you know, I didn't know I could write, but I could speak. His name was Vince Almorty Jr. And Vince did, and we're friends today. And so I my writing career evolved into a professional speaking career. I'd go to different business conventions, I'd tell the same jokes over and over, and it's a lot easier, Mike, to find a new audience than it is a new speech.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

It sure is. Sure, right? Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

And so I did I did that for years. So that's my professional background.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

My goodness, Roger, what a story. I mean, we could end the podcast here, and it's going to be terrific. I mean, thank you for that. Yeah. It's I love that you go back to your roots though, as a kid, and that the desire and the drive and the passion wasn't about the money. And I love that. And I'll I'll tell you why. We've always said to our boys, we have a 28-year-old we're immensely proud of, and a 25-year-old that we're immensely proud of. They're good people, they're good humans, and they're doing good things. But we always said to the boys, it's passion before paycheck. And we drilled that into them, Roger. We drilled it into them as a family-owned business and uh, you know, just sort of things that mom and I believed in. And uh, and I'm proud to tell you they both followed that path. And they're both doing something they're passionate about. And the interesting part of that is the paycheck's starting to come along. And it's a wonderful story. And, you know, we all chase the rainbow. It's funny, you know, you can make $25,000 a year. I remember uh my very first job was $2.15 an hour, you know, and I thought I'd I'd hit the big time as a kid, a teenager making that kind of money and uh, you know, subsequently worked my way through life and got more lucky than good. But you money's never the answer. It's just never the answer. And and so I'm so happy to hear you kind of touch on that just a little bit in your opening dialogue. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Absolutely. I'll just say the lack of money can cause unhappiness, but more money doesn't necessarily cause more happiness. You know, it matter who you are, your values, principles, um that you know, that that's what's really important. And having that passion for exactly what you're doing. That's that's where satisfaction in life comes from. Because when I was a banker and uh and my and also some of my friends, I know people with a lot of money. You know, it does. I like to say money makes people somebody bigger what they already are. They're a good person, they'll be a better person. The jerk, they'll be a big bigger jerk. Anyway, enough of that.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

No, great way to look at it for sure. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on that. Well, that's wonderful. Well, let's jump into the second part of the conversation because I want to I want to save as much time as I have with you for the most important part of this, which is PICL. But tell me about the game of pickleball, Roger. Tell me, did the game find you? Did you find it? And do you remember that moment you stepped on the court for the first time? Because I think you and I are not meeting today and we're not talking today if it's not for pickleball. So all of the work that you're doing with PICL doesn't happen without pickleball, likely. I mean, it it may have happened with something else, but we'll assume you know, pickleball gave it a bit of a helping hand along the way. So tell me about your love affair with pickleball.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Yeah, well, I started playing about 15 years ago, and and I they they introduced it at the gym, and I said, she's here's something that that maybe my wife and I can do uh together. And like like most people who step onto the court, they don't know much about it, but all of a sudden they fall in love. You know, it's such a terrific game. And I was very fortunate because growing living in Seattle, I got to know the son of one of the founders, and through David McCollum, I I met his dad. Okay, and David and Barney Barney was a special guy. Barney was one of those guys that either likes you or he didn't.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Okay, black and white. Yeah, no question, Mark, sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Man, and we just connected and we spent a lot of time together. Uh he was at the retirement center, and I'd see him maybe once every six weeks or something like that. And of course, what we did, we talked about pickleball. So I I learned so much about the history of the game because of Barney. You know, like where did they really come from and and why pickleball as compared to other sports? And he'd say it's because it's the most social sport ever created. And we could spend the whole hour talking about Barney, but uh but that was really the start of it. And then you know, coming from a professional speaking background, I said, This is easy to teach. I mean, uh it's so fun. All you have to do is really show up and be enthusiastic to teach the game, right? The magic's not in the instructor, the magic's in the game, and I've said that many, many times. So I started teaching it. And uh, you know, locally at the local uh one of the local gyms and for the parks department. And uh believe it or not, right now I've taught about 5,000 people. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

It's something else, isn't it? I talked to a gentleman in the UK a couple days ago, Roger, who started a Facebook group page called uh Senior Pickleball Tips, you may be aware of it. And uh Patty made a great point. He said that for him, he thinks part of the magic that we're talking about today is the length of each game. So, unlike tennis or golf or you know, any other sport really, it takes a long time to complete a game. Whereas with pickleball, especially in a social environment that is where I'm most comfortable, and I assume you are as well, you know, we do a paddle rotation, we're in for maybe 11, 12, 15 minutes, we come off, we're standing on the court, you and I are chatting, we're getting to know each other, you're telling me about your story, I'm telling you about mine, and we get to know each other and we become friends. And I think his point about how quickly the game starts and ends is a major component to the success of its, you know, of the core of the game in and of itself. It was an interesting perspective.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Without a doubt. And but a key part of that is you're on the sidelines waiting to go in and you have all these conversations, and then you go to the courts so much that you find you have a whole new group of friends and you're spending a lot of time with them. And they're good people.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Yeah, they really are. And they're such a blend of people too. You know, we talked just briefly about you know people's success in life. You can be out there with anybody and anyone, you really never know who you're standing next to, and the game becomes a bit of an equalizer. You know, we're all just there to have a good time. Everybody's racing to get to 11 first. We're trying hard to stay out of the no-volley zone and try to get to 11. So the camaraderie that happens within the game, you become instant partners. You know, there's no hesitation at all. You just jump right in. So so how often do you get to play? Are you playing often or are you just simply too busy?

SPEAKER_01 13:31

I I no, I play about three, three, four times a uh a week normally.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Good for you. Yeah. Well, I get as much as I can, but I started curling this year and it uh I found uh some parallels between the two sports, interestingly enough. You know, camaraderie on the ice, uh games not particularly long, but certainly longer than pickleball. But yeah, the social side of curling and the social side of pickleball are are well aligned. So yeah, well, it's great. Well, your chance to meet one of the originators.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah, but one of the things that we're talking about, the conversations, but also I like to point out with unpickleball, the amount of laughter. You know, you go by a pickleball court and it sounds like a comedy club out there, doesn't it? Yeah, that doesn't happen in other sports. Tennis players don't laugh, they grunt, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Very serious, very serious. Very we got no we've got no time for fun. Stop that. If you want to have fun, go play with the pickleball people.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Sure, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yeah, listen, I've met a lot of people, as you have, obviously, in coaching and teaching, you know, 5,000 people, but I gotta be really frank about this, and I'm not over-exaggerating this. I've met, you know, maybe on one hand, the number of people through pickleball that I don't want to have a whole lot to do with. You know, everybody I've met uh has been for the most part quite wonderful. So yeah, well, thanks for sharing that side of it. I think it's a great game. I'm glad you're able to get on the court, you know, three times a week. I think that's terrific. And, you know, motion is lotion, my my physiotherapist always says. So, you know, we've got to keep going. We got to keep getting off the couch and getting out there and socializing, and and pickleball does all of that for us. So that's really terrific. Yeah, I love that. Well, listen, let's let's jump into uh, and I I hope I'm saying this correctly. I perhaps should have clarified it, but I assume it is P-I-C-L, or do you refer to the organization that you created as Pickle?

SPEAKER_01 15:16

My my wife and I watched when we have for 30 years, 60 Minutes on uh on Sunday night. Wesley Stall had a segment on on Cook County Jail in Chicago. And as you can imagine, what a challenge it is to run a place like that. They got about 80,000 men and women that go through there every year, a standing population of about 8,000. There's 50 major gangs in Chicago. I mean, it's not Kansas, you know? And and I I watch, I'm watching this segment, and the people are just sitting around. They're watching TV, they're playing cards, and I say to my wife, you know, they should be playing pickleball. They get exercise, um, they've learned some life skills like being a good teammate. And she gave me kind of a polite nod. She has a a media background, and and a couple minutes later I said to her, you know, I'm gonna write the guy that runs that place, Sheriff Dart, and I'll go back there on my own dime, I'll teach those guys the game.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

No kidding.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

And again, with her media background, she got an eye roll, or you know, one of th one of those logs, you've been married for a long time, you can relate to what I'm saying. And uh and and said, Roger, um, you know, he hears from kind of a lot of kooky people. Don't be disappointed if he doesn't get back to you.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Well, this was this was 2017. Pickleball wasn't popular then like it is now. Gets this letter, never ever heard of pickleball, puts the letter on the side of his desk. And that night, over dinner, he has three kids, says, I got a letter from this guy in Seattle, something about balls and pickles. 10-year-old daughter puts her hands on her hips and says, Dad, I'll tell you about pickleball.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

No way.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

And if if it wasn't for that little girl, you and I wouldn't be talking today.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Isn't that something?

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

How did she know about pickleball, Roger? Did you ever follow that through? You're not sure. You just know that was a story. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

That was that was a story, you know? And um, so anyway, he had one of his staff members reach out to me and said, Well, are you are you for real? And will you pay your own expenses? And yes, and yes, and you'll bring all the equipment, yes. And so it happened.

unknown 17:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

What Roger, what was it about that moment? Well, I mean, you could have been out of the room, you could have not caught that episode of 60 Minutes, the you know, the warden or you know, the daughter, the like so much had to happen. What what what in your reflection on it now that you've had some time, what do you think it was about that moment that just sparked that interest in you?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Well, modesty aside, you know, I'm kind of an outside the box thinker. I I I'll do things that other people say, well, maybe someday I'll do that. But that's someone somewhat indicative of who I am, is to see something and say, I'm gonna do that. You know, I'm gonna try that. And um so I'm not really surprised that I I wrote him. I am somewhat pleased that certainly that he wrote back, but but I, you know, I was sincere. I was coming from the heart when when I mentioned that. And so it just things kind of just fell into place, but uh because I took the first step.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Wow. Now listen, in my research, I understand that um, you know, Cook County uh obviously uh a special starting point for the program. It's growing extensively, and we'll talk a bit about that today. But uh tell me about that very first visit, and then subsequently, how did you come up with the four rules that you applied in that situation? Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Well, I took an Uber up to Cook County Jail, you know, and I'm from Seattle, but is a city, but it's not that big as compared to someplace like Chicago or New York. And I get out and it says Maximum Security Division 10. And I look around and this thing is huge. Cook County Jail is the size of about 70 football fields. You know, they have different locations, and all of a sudden, reality hit. I mean, I had never ever been in a prison before. You know, the closest I ever came, I had my car towed once because it was illegally parked. That that was it. All right. So my heart goes up to my throat, and I says, God, I'm over 70 years old. What am I doing here? But you know, I can't turn around then. And so I um go through clearance, and shortly thereafter I find myself in front of 25 or maybe 28 guys that have been charged with either murder or attempted murder. And I thought what I'd do is just give them a little background about how the game started with with uh Joel Pritchard, and it's starting to grow, and well, they had no interest at all. I mean, pickleball, I might as well be saying titly winks. Sure. You know, they they they got up, they went to uh drinking fountain, they wouldn't even make eye contact. And you know, my I didn't know what to do. I thought of my wife's comment that are you sure you want to do this? I thought of my dog. I thought I don't know why I thought of my dog. I thought about I might be going back that night to to Seattle, not knowing what to do. I said, Well, let's hit the courts. So I cut off my presentation. Uh they grabbed a paddle, they ended up out on the courts, and I would say maybe 15 minutes. You know what OG stands for?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Not exactly. Old guy.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

I went from old guy to either bro or dude.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Just like that.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Just like that.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

They knew nothing about the rules, all they had was these wooden paddles hitting the ball over the net. But they they were they turned in the best way I can describe it, is like third graders out on the playground. You know, they weren't in prison anymore. They were someplace else. There was so much laughter, just like what we all have as far as laughter.

unknown 21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

But, you know, when you take 25 year old men, you know, that's they're they're macho, they're trying to hit it as hard as they can, of course, which is fine. Um, but all of a sudden they listened to every single word I said. I became a Pied Piper. All right. And I'm, you know, it maybe comes from my professional speaking background. Background is I'm somewhat of a storyteller. And so I like to teach by kind of taking it one step at a time, tell a little bit of story, do some practicing, that type of thing. And in pickleball, I said, well, you know, there's really only four rules. I mean, you can learn this game after breakfast and my lunchtime, you're going to be pretty good. Because there's only four rules. Rule number, or no, rule number one is I said explained you had to hit the ball underhanded. And all right. And um why that came into impact in effect, rule number two is a two-bounce rule. Rule number three is is how the kitchen was uh developed and designed because of um for reasons that you obviously know. And then when I taught them scoring, well, they got all that down. You know, it's very easy to pick this thing up. You can pick it up in an hour. And and so we played a mini-game to seven. And boy, are they excited? They're they're jabbing at each other, they're pick poking each other in the ribs. And I say, guys, how many rules are there? Some guys said three, one guy said five, the rest of them said four. What's the fourth rule? Well, you haven't told us yet. So I said, Well, come on in so everybody can hear me. We're standing at the net, so we're in almost like a football huddle. And I said, All right, what we have here is we have the the gold medal winners and we have the people that came in second place. And so one of the rules in pickleball is after the game, you meet up at the net and you have a group hug.

unknown 23:35

Group hug.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

You said that to them.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

How did that go? You could hear a pin drop.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Roger.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Yeah, that this brought everybody back to reality. A group hug, you know, you gotta realize some of these guys have not been hugged in years. You know, you gotta realize what the population is like. Everything is very macho inside a prison. You lead with your fists, and you got some idiot that's talking about a group hug. So I I waited a few seconds, and the look on their pr faces was priceless. I reached up over the net, I had them put their paddle up, we tap paddles, and I said, guys, that's a group hug. It's one of the four rules of pickleball, and you will follow it.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Good for you. You know, but Roger, yeah, the curve, I'm gonna use the word courage there because here you are, you've pulled up to the front door, you've maybe thought twice about what you just put yourself into. You go through clearance, you get to this point where you're explaining this to them. Uh, and then you have the courage to say group hug in that environment. I mean, I got to tell you, that's that's that really speaks to your character. That is a wonderful part of the story. My goodness.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Isn't that the part of the story? And it really wasn't planned. I mean, it just kind of evolved, but it's again typical of kind of a little bit of who I am, is a little bit off the wall as far as coming up with an idea like that. And um and and since that time, and we're gonna talk about what's happened since then, but every time I've taught a group of people uh uh how to how to play on the inside, I I use those four same roles. And it it's just wonderful. Anyway, on this story, I was there a week, um, and I've been back to Chicago three times. The last time was a re there was a sports reporter for USA Today to do a story for the sports page. And I thought I thought it went well. You know, he talked to me, he talked to uh leadership, uh, he talked to some of the inmates, of course. And he calls me up a couple days later and says, Roger, I just don't know how to tell you this, but well, it's not gonna be on the sports page. And man, my heart just dropped. You know, I told my nosy neighbor, I told the guys at the gym, I'm gonna have I I'm saying, why did they kill the story? I mean, I thought it was a good story. Uh and he kind of chuckles. He says, Well, the editors read the story and they're going to put it on the front page.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Oh my. Wow. Wow. Good news. Really good news.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Really good news. The main column, you remember back when uh the USA Today had that main column down on the front page, they put it on Friday, which was the the the busiest day for buying newspapers. Um and once again, publicity moves the needle, and it also changes lives. And one of the things I want to point out about that article, and anybody can pull it up online, you know, is that um uh by Googling my name and USA Today, I'm sitting there on the bench with an individual, and he's pointing there out to the court, and I'm paraphrasing, but this is basically what it says. He's saying to me, Roger, look out there on the court. Roger looks out in the court, you just see some guys, many of them swinging and miss, just like the rest of us. Uh a lot of laughter, but I don't say anything in particular. He says, You just don't understand. You're from Seattle. We have 50 gang, major gangs in in Chicago. Many gang members will not talk to other gang members. It's just the way it is. Before pickleball. But you look out there on the courts right now and you see gang members playing with and against each other.

unknown 27:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Roger, what a moment. Like what a moment. And and for you to not, and and clearly, how could you understand you know, the depth and breadth of that moment? But to that individual, seeing this unfold, it's almost a miracle. I mean, I don't know what other word to apply to it, but they're probably thinking this this would never have happened. Like it shouldn't be happening. The fact that it was happening, it it shouldn't be happening, but it is happening because of pickleball.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

That's exactly right. And it's a moment certainly that I'll never forget. And, you know, it takes me back to being in the corporate world where we used to have sensitivity training.

unknown 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Bring people into a room, and everybody would say the right thing, and and then they'd leave, and maybe some changes would be made, and maybe they wouldn't, as far as their outlook and philosophy of toward life. But you compare that to something that people voluntarily come together that won't even talk to each other, and then all of a sudden they do an activity where they're laughing together.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Yeah, can you imagine? It's, you know, it's almost a love story. And I'm careful when I say that, and I'm not trying to be difficult on that or corny, but if you go back to the day that the game was was, you know, though they they were there, the kids were busy, everybody that loves pickleball knows the story about Bainbridge Island. And if they'd only known what they were doing in that moment, you know, if the founders of the game who had put this all together and came up with the rules and designed the Novali zone and the size of the court and the paddles and the, you know, if they could, you know, just imagine if they could see that happening and unfolding, just, you know, that moment for them would be just uh, you know, beyond description.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Well, some of the family members, of course, are still around. And I've been over to the court more than once and and and played with it, and we talked about this. And I, you know, I was I really felt close to Barney. You know, like I said, I I like to say friendships are kind of found rather than made. You could work next to somebody for 20 years and never get to close to them. And other times you could just kind of meet somebody casually and it really clicks. And I just wish that he and Joe were around to see what's happened.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yeah, well, I had a chance to talk to Steve Peranto a few days ago. And of course, Steve was a big part of the early days of pickleball and uh played in that 1976 bicentennial tournament. And, you know, it's just a great legacy uh of play and and uh being an advocate for the game. It was a real treat. But uh those guys would appreciate this on a much deeper level, you know, because they were there when it began. They really were, Rogers. So, well, that's wonderful. So from that moment, so that all goes very well, better than expected, I would assume. And tell me how it evolves into where we are today with the organization and uh, you know, your hopes and dreams for the future of it.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yeah, well, from that, one of the things that came out of that was disciplinary problems on the inside dramatically started being reduced. Guys wanted to play so much that they behaved themselves because the rule is if you get into trouble, you can't play.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

And and then I started getting calls from other places like uh, well, uh Rikers Island in New York City. You know, they have a hundred thousand people that fall through there every year. When I left, the deputy warden says, you know, we're we're gonna spread this out throughout the entire facility. Um that was the deputy commissioner, San Quentin. Um San Quentin had more people on death row than any other place in the Western Hemisphere.

unknown 31:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

I get a call from the warden who wants a Zoom call. We set that up. I I say to the warden, I said, Warden, let me just give you a little background about the benefits of pickleball on the inside. And he says, Roger, I've done my homework. When can you be here?

SPEAKER_00 31:39

That was it.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

That was it.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

He was ready, he knew, he he understood. Isn't that remarkable? Wow, Roger, what about what about all of this in the broader sense caught you off guard? Was there one part of this story so far that you just didn't expect that was a real benefit? Like, I mean, did you expect the buy-in that quickly? What how did you kind of come to grips with how the I mean, this had gone better than it could have you could have ever imagined, I would think.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yeah, how it's scripted. Uh, you know, I just kind of continue to pinch myself, not because of me, but because I've heard so many stories on the inside, and I realize how it's changing lives. Playing, being on the outside, you know, people that say pickleball's changed my life. Yes. Well, that's nothing compared to some of the stories I've heard on the inside about how it brings people together, how it reduces disciplinary problems. And I had a conversation recently with the head of recreation for um the state of California prison system. And she says, Roger, you know what? I I think that the most important aspect of pickleball is what it does once somebody gets out.

unknown 32:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

And and first of all, I I just kind of pulled back a little bit because I know what tremendous improvement it's making in the lives of so many on the inside. And so I says, Well, explain that to me. She says, our recidivism rate in this country is a disgrace. It's about 65%, as compared to someplace like Norway, which is 15%.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

We're doing all kinds of research about what does it take to get somebody to get out and stay out? And three things are needed. First of all, they need a job. They need income, right? Well, yet uh a year after getting out, about half the inmates are still looking for work. Second of all, they need support, and that normally comes in the form of family. Some families are good, some uh have challenges. But the third thing they need, she says Roger is community. Bingo. Somebody can pick up a paddle, they can go down to the local courts, it can be on a first name basis, they're gonna make new friends, new relationships, and it takes them out of that routine that they were involved in before they went inside. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Yeah. I just want to let that land for a moment because that's you know, it's remarkable that that would be one of the pillars of you know success and helping these find a new pathway, finding these folks, you know, a new way to get it to get on with their lives.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

And and that's probably I'm sorry, but you can see how it all fits together.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah. Yeah, it's something else. I just I'm so taken by the story, and I'm just so taken by the impact of the game that, you know, a game I just picked up a few years ago for fun, you know, and had never until I ran into your story to think about the impact that it's having. And I would make an assumption, Roger, that the success that you've had with this program and the benefits that it's that it's delivering, you know, there's got to be more out there happening with pickleball than maybe you and I are even aware of. And it could be happening on the other side of the world, but there could be something so positive about this. And I can't think of another sport that could possibly have filled the bill in the way that pickleball has done this for you and and and for these guys, you know?

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah, well, speaking of the other side of the world, just yesterday I was profiled in a media uh online uh in Vietnam. All right. Yeah. But but let me go back a little bit because I want to fill this in on what happened after I ended up like in New York, and then I was asked to go down to Chicago, um, not Chicago, but Florida, is people started contacting me and said, this is terrific. I got it. I get it. You know, I understand how much this can help. And I have a prison right down the road, and I'd like to introduce a game at that prison. Will you tell me what to do? And I say, I love to tell people what to do. Sometimes I like to tell people where to go, but I'll give you guidance uh on what to do. And like I said, it's the easiest game in the world to teach. All you gotta do is show up and be enthusiastic. All right, so all of a sudden I had five people doing that and ten, and then a woman out of uh Connecticut contacted me and says, Well, let's let's form a nonprofit to support this. Sarah Gerson. And what we did, we we called a PICL for pickleball for the incarcerated community league. Well, all of a sudden, you know, it just starts growing and growing, and we got more publicity. And right now we're in 25 states. We're at 81 different facilities, and there's 150 people teaching on the inside. Roger, what a what a track record.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

And and put a time frame on this for those listening again, from the moment you were in Cook County until where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

It's been less than 10 years.

unknown 36:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Less than a decade. You've accomplished all of this. Well, congratulations. Congratulations on all of that. That must just warm your heart. It must just all the success that you had in life, and and maybe part of the reason I wanted to draw you into that conversation early was I had a strong sense through the research I did for the show that you'd had a very successful business career. And I wonder how you measure that against the success that you've had with PIC. Well, this is how how do you square the circle on that?

SPEAKER_01 37:15

That's obviously much more satisfying. You know, I'm I'm proud of my my career and and my my monetary success, but I think our society places way too much emphasis on that, on materialism and trying to press your neighbor. You know, what's important is if you can put something back into society and make the world a better place. And I've really been able to do this through pickleball, or pickleball has done it for me, of knowing that I've helped so many people and continually get letters and and comments from different people, and that, you know, both inside and outside. I mean, you like again, like I know, you can really relate to the people on the outside that says, This has helped me. But like one inmate said to me, he says, you know, I'm sure they enjoy it on the outside, but on the inside, we really need it. And and and in those three hours a week that I got to play on the inside, he says, I'm not on the inside. I I'm I'm I'm free. Because all I'm doing is focusing on hitting that ball over the net.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah, well, and I think, you know, another part of the game, Roger, that certainly has lent itself to all of this and the success that you've had is just the, you know, uh the ease of access into it. And to your point earlier, it's a quick game to learn, it's a quick game to set up, you know. I mean, that all of it, the combination of everything that is pickleball, just certainly all came together and kind of dovetailed into this being such a great success story. Well, good on you. So we're sitting here in the moment, it's 2026, early 2026. What are the future plans looking like for PICL between, you know, say now and the end of this year and then maybe beyond those borders? What are the hopes and dreams of your organization today as it relates to what you're thinking about?

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Well, I'm just kind of letting it grow organically, and that's kind of the way I am as compared to setting goals and wanting to accomplish this or that. I can tell you that the warden at San Quentin, when he retired recently, he told me that the day I showed up at San Quentin was one of the top five highlights of his entire career. I can also tell you that in my conversation with him, I said, where do you see pickleball going? And he said, Right now, the number one sport on the inside is basketball. Because so many of the kids grew up playing basketball. But he says the way basketball is played on the inside is a contact sport. And there's so many injuries that some prisons want to ban it. They want to get rid of it altogether because the way it's played. He says, you compare that to pickleball where everybody can play it, everybody can learn it in an hour or two, everybody can, you know, go out on the court and have fun. He said, Pickleball will be the number one sport played on the inside. You know, and I I I I certainly agree with that. I mean, you just look at it's I had uh an interview a while back with a reporter from the Boston Globe. He said pickleball is the fastest growing sport in the history of this country. And you you just think about that, and why it it's just so logical that it should it will grow tremendously fast on the inside. So we're in 80 81 different facilities. I think a a year ago we were look like in 45. And um wow yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

And has there been yeah, sorry, Roger's gonna ask, has there been any any any sort of endeavor throughout the program that you've undertaken that just didn't quite work out the way you'd hoped it was? I mean, has anyone ever said no to you as far as trying to bring pick they have a yeah? So it hasn't always been a home run as far as that goes. There's been a a a bit of pushback in certain areas.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

There's um prisons are very bureaucratic, all right. Okay, and and and think about the type of person who's wants to go to work in a prison. You know, it's a very negative environment, the pay's lousy, it's dangerous, you know. And and so we certainly have had facilities say, oh, we try things like that before and they don't work. All right. And and there's also a segment of our society, you know, as as we both know, right now in 2026, our country is very polarized as far as on the political aspect. And there's all there's a number of people that say, hey, they're there to be punished, they're not there to have fun. And I can identify with where they're coming from. But what happens is pickleball reduces disciplinary problems on the inside. It's it gets better results with a carrot than a stick. And so if you can use if you have something where you can improve the problems on the inside, reducing the violence, making it easy for the correction officers, isn't isn't that a benefit? So there's always though, but there'll always be people that say just by hearing pickleball and playing a game on the inside, that they're against it. So so they're so there's hurdles, but it's doing so much good that the good's over overcoming the bad.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Oh, clearly, yeah, no, absolutely. Well, Roger, congratulations on all of that. I mean, you know, the accomplishments to date, and I'm sure what what the future holds are just it's just a remarkable story. It's remarkable. Tell me, tell, yeah, tell me about the documentary. Tell me where that fits into the broader picture.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Well, and it's it's gonna be great. Um let's see, about three years ago, I was asked to do a tour from Florida. Florida has the third largest population of inmates behind Texas and California. And the Washington Post assigned a reporter to follow me for a few days. And after that article came out, a producer out of Hollywood contacted me, Daniel Ostroff, and says, I'd like to do a documentary about you. And so we've been working together for the last three years, and maybe you can put some information on the documentary in your in your footnotes if you would. Um, and it's called Pickleball in Prisons, where he's been, geez, I don't know how many sites with me, maybe 10, 11, uh, filming, and has many, many hours and just some tremendous footage, and of course, an awful lot of it is interviewing staff and interviewing inmates as far as what the game's doing on the inside.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

That's just true. Well, I think it's a great testament to the legacy of the work that you've done, Roger. I'm so glad they're doing that. And uh what a great experience for you to have that as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Well, Daniel, Daniel's a terrific guy. He's great to work with, and and I'm really looking forward to that coming out. We have you know a couple trailers coming out so far. We're not exactly sure when it will be released.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Yeah, well, he has been in contact with me. Thank you. And we will absolutely make sure that all the show notes include all the information that uh that you and he would like to have shared and uh and we'll do a good job with that for sure. So well, Roger, I'm careful with the clock. We're pushing up against that 47-minute mark, so I'm gonna be very, very careful and very quick here at the end. But uh was there anything that I didn't get to today? I I had a lot of questions, and I really didn't want to turn this into a a QA. And uh, you know, your speaking background and your personality, you're just such an easy guy to fall in love with, and uh, you know, your story is amazing, and I'm so pleased to have had this chance. But was there anything we didn't touch on today that you really think we should have maybe talked about for a moment?

SPEAKER_01 44:59

You know, you asked such excellent questions, you really did, and you really covered the broad perspective of what was happened and where it's going. But it it's so it's kind of hard to put into words some of the experiences that I've had on the inside. And I'll just share one. Is I was at one prison and a guy had a couple well, either magazines or newspapers, something like that. And he comes up to me and he said, he introduced himself, and he says, Roger, I've been following you in your career and I've been praying that you'll come to our prison and today you're here. Will you autograph these for me?

SPEAKER_00 45:39

No kidding.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

You know, and how does my heart not go up to my throat when I when I think of him and him telling me that my mission of coming to him, he's been praying for, and then I then I'm there.

unknown 45:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

It's just yeah, it's such a story. It's such a there's just nothing else out there like it, Roger. And I'm so glad that the publicity that you're obviously garnering from all this and the hard work, uh, you know, I just give you such a pat on the back for this and and your organization. It takes a village to put this together. And, you know, it it needed to start. It needed a spark. And my father-in-law used to say that somebody's got to light the fire, but somebody's got to keep putting wood on it. Like, you know, we can start the fire. If somebody's got to put wood on it, it's gonna go out. So I, you know, I applaud you for all of that. And I think you must have a great team behind you that is uh, you know, uh really uh tied into this in a way that just, you know, keeps it going and keeps it moving. And uh I wish you and and the group nothing but continued success. And I'm so blessed that you were willing to be a part of the small podcast. And I hope in some way we can share this story and we will share this story. And uh so thank you again for being here. It's been a wonderful conversation.