Living in a Yurt- Loving Pickleball!

What happens when a guy living in a yurt becomes one of the most influential voices in pickleball?

In this episode of Kitchen Conversations, I sit down with Mike “Sleeves” Sliwa… one of the most recognizable, unfiltered, and thought-provoking personalities in the game today.

He’s not just talking about pickleball.
He’s challenging it.

From hosting the Senior Pickleball Report to narrating a major pickleball documentary… to working behind the scenes on initiatives like the Pickleball Manufacturers Association (PMA) and emerging rating systems…

Sleeves is right in the middle of where the game is going next.

And he’s not afraid to push back on where it’s going wrong.

As he puts it, he’s constantly “pushing against the status quo” in a sport that’s rapidly being shaped by money, technology, and competing agendas.

This is a conversation about pickleball…
but more importantly, it’s about who controls the future of the game.

🔥 In this episode, we dive into:

• The real story behind the Senior Pickleball Report
• How Sleeves went from content creator to documentary narrator
• The power struggle behind pro pickleball
• Why he’s challenging the current rating systems
• The vision behind the Pickleball Manufacturers Association (PMA)
• The explosion of paddle companies and who really wins
• How AI could reshape the way the game is played and analyzed
• Why the current direction of the sport may not serve everyday players

🌎 Follow Mike “Sleeves” Sliwa:

👉 Senior Pickleball Report (YouTube):
https://www.youtube.com/@SeniorPickleballReport

👉 Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/seniorpickleballreport

👉 Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/SeniorPickleballReport

🏓 Pickleball Manufacturers Association (PMA):

👉 Learn more / Get involved:
https://www.pickleballma.com

A growing collaborative space for paddle brands, creators, and innovators looking to challenge the traditional power structure of the sport.

📊 Emerging Rating System (VER / VAR TV):

👉 Learn more:
https://www.vertvpickleball.com

A new approach to rating players using real performance, decision-making, and AI… not just scores.

🎬 Documentary Mentioned:

👉 Dream Breaker (Pickleball documentary narrated by Sleeves)
https://therokuchannel.roku.com

🎙️ About Kitchen Conversations:

This is not an interview.
This is a court-side conversation.

Real stories. Real people.
More than dinks, drops, and drives.
Stories from behind the paddle.

🏓 If this episode makes you think:

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Because the future of pickleball is being shaped right now.

🔖 Hashtags:

#Pickleball
#SeniorPickleballReport
#MikeSliwa
#Sleeves
#PMA
#PickleballManufacturersAssociation
#PickleballPodcast
#KitchenConversations
#PickleballCommunity
#PickleballGrowth
#AIInSports
#PaddleReviews
#PickleballIndustry
#SportsInnovation

And that wraps up this episode of Kitchen Conversations.

If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone who loves the game as much as you do.

And if you want the full experience, including the visuals, head over to YouTube and watch the episode at

https://www.youtube.com/@KitchenConversationspodcast

Or search Kitchen Conversations Pickleball Podcast

That’s where these stories really come to life.

You’ll also find links and show notes in the episode description.

Until next time…

more than dinks, drops and drives…

these are stories from behind the paddle.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, and welcome to the podcast. Welcome to Kitchen Conversations. We've got a small agenda. With each episode, what we're hoping is that one person who's never played the game will pick up a paddle and give it a go for the very first time. And we're pretty confident today's guests will inspire that and more. We had a chance to sit down with one of the most colorful characters in the game today. He goes by the nickname Sleeves. He'll explain what that's all about in the episode. And you'll hear about his podcast in your pickleball report. You'll hear about him voicing movies. You'll hear about all the things that he's involved in, including his new organization and all the paddle reviews and more that he does to help benefit the game that we all love. We think you're gonna love meeting sleeves, and we hope you enjoy this episode of Kitchen Conversations. And I really just want to start by thanking you for putting a bit of time aside for us today and uh give me a chance to say hello and finally meet. It's been uh it's been a fun few weeks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Yeah. Nice to meet you as well, uh, virtually, obviously, but hopefully someday I always get, you know, when I talk to people, I'm like, hopefully someday we run into each other on the courts because that's kind of where all the fun is.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yeah, for sure. I'm gonna ask you an interesting starting question. I asked this of Steve Peranto, of course, the Hall of Famer. I had a chance to talk to Steve about a week ago. And I feel the same with you. I've been following you online for a bit now and uh diving into your content and a lot of the podcast interviews like this that you've already done. And so when I meet you, there's this instant sense that I know you, and yet you've never seen my face. So it's this interesting relationship that you must have with your audience and with people like me that beg you to come on their show and you're generous enough to do that. And so thank you. But do you find that at all a bit difficult, uh fascinating, interesting, concerning? I mean, where does that land for you in that moment? Because I just feel like I know you.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Yeah, you know, it is it's it's always interesting when you meet, finally meet some people in person. You know, if you do this long enough, you will. Um, you will you'll run across them at some tournament somewhere. And the expectation is that, like, yeah, we're old buddies, and really we've only spent a short amount of time with one another, and you know, we've sort of like I do, and you do as well, you research their background and you think you get to know them and um you get a thumbnail sketch of what they are in one particular avenue of their life. So I actually really look forward to meeting the folks in person. And I always say that in my pickleball uh interviews, even if it's not on air, I talk to them afterwards. I'm like, you know, where are you gonna be this year? And maybe we'll cross paths, you know, you go into this, you go into that, because there's obviously tournaments and there's, you know, events like PickleCon and things like that that people attend. And I always think that's the kind of the fun of this, is that I've interviewed, you know, hundreds of people and reviewed hundreds of paddles, but I want to meet the folks behind it in person and uh hopefully on a court so we can have some fun, and because that's what we're all doing.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

This so yeah, great. That's good stuff. You know, and I think the other thing that you've got going for you is you, you know, and I say this with the utmost respect, you are a guy that once someone meets you, they're just not going to forget you. You have a very unique look to you. It's striking, um, you know, tall, handsome, all that kind of stuff. But but even the nickname sleeves, I mean, you you put the combination of just sort of your physical presence and and your, you know, your outward personality in combination with sleeves. I mean, you're just a hard guy to forget. So I would think that even people that haven't necessarily been part of your podcast world that have just been following you, if they bump into you at a tournament or a clinic or see you out somewhere, I'm sure they feel this immediate you know relationship with you, which must be kind of neat.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, it is fascinating because part of this is branding. Um, when I started my channel, I was like, well, I'm gonna cover seniors since I'm a senior player. And I'm like, Mike's pickleball, Mike's senior pickleball report just doesn't roll off the tongue. I've been called sleeves my whole life. Um my my last name is pronounced sleeva, and so sleeves just came in very early in my life in different variations of it. It was it was plural and then it was singular, then it's back to plural. Um and then the you know, the I the AI sort of logo design um helps a little bit for recognition too. Um and I have been told by people who have worked in um um particular industries that really rely heavily on branding that um it was a genius move, but it was just pure luck because I'm like my last name just sort of rolled with it, and that was um you know, my my intention, it just sounded better than Mike.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

I get you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Um and so people it's weird, people like to call me sleeves, and so they ask all the time, like when I was, you know, sort of being auditioned for the film, which we'll probably talk about. It they they kept asking, can we call you sleeves? Can we call you sleeves? I'm like, yeah, you know it's fine. It's weird because generally a lot of my friends and family, mainly friends from college, high school, so on, those are the ones that's where I got the name. And so when I started to hear outside of that, it was a little strange at first, but I've gotten used to it so much. I don't think there's a fair amount of people I interact with that probably don't even know my first name.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yeah, I would agree. I think I've I bumped into US sleeves and then later learned that we shared the first first name as Mike. But well, I think you got the better end of the stick, to be quite honest, because my last name is Spees, which in high school became Spaz. I mean, how could it not? How does Spees not?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, well, mine was Sleeva, which became Saliva.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Okay, I take that back. Maybe you did get the raw end of the stick. Okay, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, kids can be so creative and so boring all at the same time. So yeah, well, that's great. Well, listen, when I reached out to you, Sleeves, I uh I reached out with what I thought were some intelligent podcast questions. And I think there was some merit to some of that, but the more I spent looking at my own questions, thinking about you, thinking about the legacy that you've already created within the space of podcasting in the game that you and I love, I got a little nervous about those questions. And I just didn't want to come and spend a bit of time with you today asking you questions that I think, frankly, you've answered a hundred times or more. Um, you were kind to respond, which I really appreciated, told me my questions were fine. Um, but then you offered some insight into some of the things that are happening maybe in your life that haven't been covered quite as much in a podcast. And so if you don't mind, I'd like to just park my questions because I don't think there's anything new there that you're going to hear. I'm going to necessarily hear the listeners are. And I'd like to kind of jump into the comments that you sent back if that's okay with you.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

That's great. Yeah. No, you're cool, your questions are great. Um, I just thought, you know, there's some detail that not everybody gets because things happen in real time, and some of that information is not available online quite yet, or it's hard to find. So I thought, well, here's some stuff you can.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah, it's perfect, and I appreciate it. So why don't we jump into that? And then, you know, I do have a couple of pickleball specific questions before I let you go today that I'm interested in your insight on, both as a player and a commentator and an influencer, and I guess as much a storyteller uh as anything. So I'll get to those just before we wrap up. But you did mention that you're involved in a documentary called Dream Breaker. Um, walk me through that story, and it's on Roku now, and you've narrated that. Is that the story?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, so um I started my channel in 2022, and that was February 2022, and by June of 2022, I was contacted by the woman um who ended up directing and helping produce the film and create create the film, and it was Ashley Underwood, who was actually married to Larry David. Um I didn't know that at the time when she was speaking to me, and she's you know, I think she was going through her list of people that she may want in her film, and she was still it was gonna be able, she knew it was gonna be about the pro scene and kind of the birth of the pro game, and just talking to different creators, content creators, influencers, so on, players. So that was June, and uh she said, Yeah, I think I'd love to have you in the in the movie. I mean, obviously the the yurt thing's pretty cool. Um, didn't really know that was uh um a thing you were doing, so that kind of adds an element. And then you know, like movies do, they you know, we'll get back to you. And so sort of December rolls around, late November, December of that same year, and I'm like, Well, I wonder how the movie's going. Clearly, I'm not in it, which you know, whatever, it's fine. Um, I'm gonna I got a number here. I'm gonna contact Ashley and see if I can interview her, talk to her about the film and promote it in some way. And I wrote her, she said, Hey, can you um jump on a call tomorrow with my team? Um, I'd like to talk to you about the film and being in the film and stuff. I'm like, well, sure, great. So at that point, um, to give you a little update here, I am finally on what I would call real Wi-Fi. For the first four years of my channel, I basically was taking my neighbors, borrowing my neighbor's Wi-Fi or the one bar. And so I couldn't really do anything in here that was interview-wise um significant because I just didn't have the power to keep uh a video a video going. Um it would cut in and out, and the audio would cut in and out. And so I finally got Starlink, um, had to bite the bullet and finally got it. And I I can do things like this. But I rolled the dice that day because once in a while it works. And I'm like, if I want to get in this film, they're gonna have to see the yurt. And so I was sitting right here just like this, and I turned the camera on, and they had, you know, a couple producers and her, and they go, Is that the yurt?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Is that it?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

And I said, Yeah. So I I pulled it off and I showed them the yurt, and they're like, Oh, and at that point, I'm like, I think I'm gonna have a chance of getting in this film. A bunch of questions later about what I knew mainly about the pro game. And uh they said, Well, Mike, we're thinking of having you narrate the film. And I'm like, okay, like me? What you know, I've been doing this four months. Um then they said, Well, we're gonna talk about it, da da da. And that evening they got back to me and said, Yeah, I think what we're gonna do is we're gonna have you basically um we have a small budget, uh, so what we're gonna do is try this out for a while. We'll send you a cell phone um and we want you to do video diaries of uh different themes and topics we send you, with potentially putting them in the film kind of to uh carry the story along. And so I did that for about five months, um, where I had to drive to the top of a hill to have enough Wi-Fi to upload the 4K that they required in every video I did, which if I when I just started to do it here, it was every minute I recorded was an hour to upload, and then I would get upload failed. Um, so that was kind of the process of getting into the film and getting it.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Wow, yeah, it's never easy. You're you're getting into something in the technology, uh, you know what you're doing, and you're you're comfortable with that part of it. But uh yeah, there's nothing worse than watching that wheel spin and spin and spin and finally decide, no, it's not gonna work. Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Right. And then eventually they decided they uh that it was enough, and they're like, I think we're gonna use you in the film, so we're gonna come out and we're gonna actually film you saying some of the things you already recorded, but on our cameras, on our high-quality Sony cameras, not your the cell phone we sent you. Um so they came out uh in September of 2023, I believe, for two days, eight hours, two eight-hour days. And I live in the middle of nowhere. You have to drive the closest airport uh to really fly into is either like Tucson or um El Paso. So I believe they flew into El Paso or Tucson, got some crew help from the state that you know, people doing sound and stuff. And a crew of about six came here and they shot for two days. And uh yeah, so I'm in the movie off and on, um, every 10-15 minutes, sort of catch people up about what the heck's happening on because there's all these talking heads and all these acronyms. And so they'll shoot me, you know, chopping some wood and saying, hey, here's what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

So that's what an interesting approach to it, though. Really, you know, Mike, like to come at it from that angle to sort of have you pop in, pop out, pop in, pop out. Kind of a neat thing. Was that an experience that if you had the chance to do it again today, would you do it again? Would you take another chance at something like that? Did you enjoy it?

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah, I I I would. Um, it's interesting enough. I'm actually going to be in another film that's going to come out in about a year from now, which is a similar role that I have. Um, it's a little different. It's actually I'm interviewing the director, and uh he's talking about making the film. And so I think so. Yeah, I didn't actually know why I was in the film. Even when it came out, I watched the film, and my wife and I were like, we were a bunch of people our friends, and we're like, why am I in this movie? And my buddy, who is in has been in the film industry for a long time, and his father's pretty famous, he leans in, he goes, Mike, you're the ginger. There's all this money and and talking heads and billionaires, and they got to cut to you once in a while to sort of bring reality back in, because otherwise people just sort of go, I don't know what the heck's going on. There's all these people trying to throw money at this sport. And so then it made a little more sense to me because I was I I literally watched, I was like, it did come down to that. She she actually showed the director or the the executives that were going to buy the film, like, you know, should we have sleeves in it? Here's what it looks like with sleeves, here's what it looks like without. And so they chose they chose the version that I was in.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Wow, what an experience. Yeah. It's funny how our life goes, isn't it? I mean, you start off in one sort of down one pathway and that leads to another. Yeah. I'm a big fan right now of looking at my life today and and maybe at some point looking at certain decisions I made that were maybe insignificant in that moment, but certainly led to great things down the road. And uh yeah, for you to have started the podcast and gotten involved and lent your voice to it. I mean, the connections from that just sort of start rolling. Yeah. So after that project, what was next?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Well, I mean, there's a thing. So I'm, you know, Mike, well, how what is this going to do? Um, is this going to bring what this ultimately did for me is it brought me um into a place where some of the people that were involved with the pro game knew who I was. Um with prior to that, um, that wasn't the case. And um that can be good and bad. I don't think the people that were generally the movie was about were exactly huge fans of it. Um because the film was really about the power struggle of who was going to control pro pickleball. It was a bat, it was really a fight between two billionaires, Steve Kuhn and Tom Dundan, and you know, one guy owned one property, uh one one piece of uh the landscape and major league pickleball, the other guy owned the PPA. And it was kind of this battle for the players um and what it was about. And uh I don't know if the film, I think the film did a pretty good job trying to kind of just maintain just documenting it. But you know, people say things and they look at themselves on camera and they're like, yeah, maybe I didn't look like uh I didn't put myself in the best light. So I think some of the folks weren't exactly happy with how they might have been portrayed, but the way I sort of looked at it, it was, you know, changed the wording. You know, you came out, you said these things, um, and and it is what it is. And so I got a bit of a little bit of like, oh, you know, who's this guy? And I have been very critical. I'm gonna be up front, I've been very critical post-movie about how pro pickleball has been handled. And I am not a fan of what I would call the current status quo about how it's going. And so once they knew who I was, once I started having I started making a little pushback on some of the decision making. Um let's just say we're not we're not friends.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

That's fair. That's fair. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Um you know, they have a lot of money, they're doing their thing, and I you know, I'm this guy living in the middle of nowhere spouting off my mouth. So, yeah, but you know, I have some ideas that we can talk about some of those ideas of what I'm trying to do about changing kind of the status quo in the in the way pickleball is kind of proceeded.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Okay, well, let's come back to the hat for sure on that. Absolutely. So, Mike, the movie gets kind of wrapped up. It is what it is, and it's hit where it's hit, and it's a miss where it's a miss, I suppose, like most. And but were you happy with the end result of that? And then ultimately, where does that lead into the next project for you?

unknown 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yeah, it was. Um, I think the filmmakers did a great job. It was not easy, a lot of moving parts. And the problem was the story changed every week. And so they they were really looking like, where do we end this thing? And it sort of just sort of happened for them. They got sort of lucky where um this sort of tour war came to an end and it right at the end of their film because they came out to me and they wanted to wrap up and they're like, boy, it's just hanging here. We don't know what's gonna happen. And then it kind of just resolved itself, and uh they kind of put a bow on it. So I think it would have been an easier thing to make a series about this, um, but ultimately that that's not the project they were uh given uh funding for. So they made what they did, and I I think they did a fantastic job. Um for me, um, rolling out of that, I sort of knew that I could continue to just do this, make paddle reviews, interview people, and that's great. And because I have done that, I have made a lot of contacts and a lot of connections and a lot of networking. Um, and so I thought, well, what can I do with this? And really, um, I've kind of gravitated towards those people who are looking to change the space. And so I'm really working with a couple entities. One of them is um challenging the status quo as far as pickleball ratings is concerned, and the other one is the hat, which is pickleball manufacturers association, which is really just giving creators, uh tournament directors, players, um, brand influencers, uh, people who have brands, whether they're paddle brands, apparel brands, eyeglass, you name it, a space where they can collaborate with one another because what I'm seeing out there is a lot of sort of the narrative being dominated by a few large brands and a few large organizations. And there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of paddle companies, hundreds of apparel companies, tons of apps that really don't have a space. And so um, I started working with some guys who developed Pickleball Manufacturers Association, which is a trade organization where we can just collaborate. And collaboration could be as simple as like, Mike, I'm gonna share your stuff and I'm gonna tag you, and I'm gonna tag my friends. Um, or it can be like, you know, hey, I'm an apparel company and I want to do a collaboration with a Pava company, and we create a project together. Um, but it doesn't have to cost money, and I think it's a way for people to connect that may be trying to wade their way through um sort of the chaotic pickleball landscape as far as um retail goes and and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, we the marketing money um behind so many of these organizations, you know, and the interpretation that we have as fans and players of whatever it is we're involved in, and in this instant, it's it's pickleball. But you you just wonder how much of that kind of, you know, it just moves us in a direction that maybe, you know, if we knew otherwise we we may not go that direction. I've got a couple of small Canadian paddle manufacturers here that I'm gonna be talking to in the next few months, and uh that's one of the battles that they're facing right now, is you know, one of them is called combat, you know, combat paddles. And Michael, the owner and the founder, is just one of the most passionate people you'll ever meet, but he's up against, you know, a dragon, you know, in in Selkirk and and others. And so, you know, how does he carve out a niche market, Mike? And how does he find an audience and how does he deliver his value proposition? He really believes in this paddle. I mean, he, yeah, he's in it for you know profit, clearly. He's he's he's a company, he's a business, he needs to keep the lights and heat and the hydro on. But the passion behind him, you know, is uh it's it's unmistakable. So yeah, it's an interesting point. So hmm, fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, I mean that that's the part. I mean, I review paddles. I don't review the the big paddle companies don't send me stuff. I don't have the viewership for it. Um, I get everybody else, which is great because it's endless. Um, but the big challenge for these companies is the cost to get something certified. Um, and that's kind of what PMA really started with is like if you got to spend tens of thousands of dollars just to get one model of your paddle certified to be used in a, let's just say, for example, USAPA pickleball event, um, how can you maintain any sort of momentum or growth when um you're the person buying the paddle may never actually play in a USAPA pickleball event or they may never play in a UPA event. Um and so is it worth that? And so what we did with UPA on PMA is we kind of took it in a community-based approach, which is if you want to become a member and you want to put a paddle out and you want to put a PMA um stamp of approval on it, well, we'll kind of decide that on a community basis amongst paddle brands that are part of the um membership in the community. Um, in other words, if you're putting out a rocket ship that we think is gonna hurt people, um, we're probably gonna point that out and say we're not going to recommend or endorse your particular paddle. And instead of getting all this machinery and you've made great paddles for years, and now we got to test you and we got to charge you X amount of dollars. We're like, let's bring in the people we've all worked with, all the people that they know that they've worked with, and let's do this communally. We can follow some set standards that are already out there, but do we have to charge people tens of thousands of dollars to you know kind of get through that little gateway and into um a place where those people may never use those paddles in a setting where they have to get um you know, have to have that stamp on it because the scheme of all the tournaments out there, very few of them are USA, USAPA tournaments, very few of them are UPA. There's tons of others that uh you know are are available. And so that's kind of the idea between a PMA approved paddle is like, what about all the other stuff? Just rec play, um, you know, um open play, you name it, um a league.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, for sure. And I think you and I would probably agree on this point too. If you take the average rec player, which I am, it's maybe a 3-5 on a good day, a three two three two most days, Mike. And you know, the reality is that I don't really care what's happening at pro pickleball. Like I'm I'm aware of it. I I know the name Ben Johns. I I get all that. And and I, you know, I'll watch it, excuse me, maybe maybe out of the corner of my eye, but I'm not a diehard fan in that regard. And most of the people that I play with, I would say fall into that bucket. They're interested, you know. Okay, I heard about this. Oh, they finally lost. You know, they we know who we're talking about. You know, but I don't think the average player coming in on a Monday morning, we're talking about the weather, the snow and the ice we had to scrape off. Our cars. We're not getting into a deep dive on the PPA and and all of that. So yeah, I think that's an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

And yet that influences us though, because if you if if so and so's paddle cost uh let's say $15,000, $30,000 to get approved, that goes to the bottom line and they got a charge X, which rec players like you and I. Now we're spending $200, $300, $350, $400 on paddles. Um when at the end of the day, if there wasn't a charge and we communally did this, they're starting off at a level where they're not $30,000 in the hole trying to get one model of their panel lineup approved, or whatever it happens to be. Um and so that's I think you hit it on the nose. It's like there's a bunch of us out here, we're aware of Pro Ball, but you know, this is kind of about the people and the people making the decisions and the people creating the narrative. And that's really the whole idea behind my involvement with PMA is like I just don't want these large entities to control the entire narrative, and then we just sort of get it filtered down.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah, we're told what they want us to know, not what we need to know in some cases. So yeah, it's interesting. Ken, I I've I've, you know, as I mentioned out of the gate here, I've watched a lot of your online content and uh understand the yurt that you're in today is part of a larger community. How much of that community influence became part of PMA's backbone? Did did the reality of how you're living become part of your concept for PMA in any way?

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yeah, um, well, here's the thing, Mike. Um it seems like anything I do with my life, I'm always the I always end up on the side pushing against the status quo. I mean, there's a reason I live in the middle of nowhere in a tent. Okay. So, yes. Um, and uh, and again, I I took up pickleball and I'm like, oh, this is great. I don't have to think about you know the world problems all the time. I can go to a place and we can just hit it around, and then you get involved, and then you're like, yeah, it's happening here too. Um, there's a lot of stuff happening here where there's power struggles and people trying to to, you know, greed kind of takes over. And I'm like, yeah, even this sport, I play with a whipple ball. I'm on the other side trying to, you know, make some space for the little guy. I'm like, can't I just relax?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Chill out, everybody. Just chill out. It's pickleball. Calm down. Everybody take a pill or do whatever you need to take to calm down, but calm down, please. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

But to answer your question is yes, um, we have a small community of people here that we can make decisions on because we know what's happening within the group. The group isn't so large where we're like, hey, what's going on here? We know what's going on because um we can either feel uh the the suffering of somebody or we can see it um because it's in a small space with a you know a small group of people. Obviously, if PMA grows, you know, we'll have to get some some things in that take care of those larger numbers. But ultimately, it's really sort of working with people that you've worked with for a while and trusted. And you you know their you know you know their intent. Um, and then you know that you don't want to be that person within that group that is disrupting that because you have all of a sudden gotten a little whatever, greedy, anxious. Um, you know, you you you kind of want to, you know, play within the play within the group and kind of build as we all go forward and and try and make this great for everyone because it's really about just letting you connect with other people. And if you and if you're trying to do something where it's hurting those other people, then you know we don't want you part of that. So it's sort of that's I I feel like the way it will work as we grow.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Well, that's great. It's great insight, and I appreciate all of that, Mike. It's great stuff, and and thanks for sharing all of that. Just glancing back at the notes that you had sent me. Um, you're involved in hosting VARE TV. Um, what's happening there? What's the story behind that?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, so VARE is part of PMA. Um, VARE is a rating system that is out there that is trying to sort of change the idea of how rating systems work. Um, obviously, Duper is sort of embedded into people's brains and mindsets. And um Duper's had about five or six years to collect data on us. Now they're doing resets, they're charging people for resets. It just doesn't seem to be holding water the way everybody would hope that like a four-five is a four-five no matter who you are. I think that sounds great in principle, but at the end of the day, I think it mat things like you know, age, gender, um, adaptive, pickleball, um, are you playing um with a 3.2 partner, or are you playing, you know, tons and endless variables. And so what VAR has done is brought in as many variables as they can into their algorithm, plus um, you have the option of getting visually rated by somebody who's been trained to rate you on a you know on a like a 41-point scale of all these different areas, and then you throw it into the algorithm with some AI, looking at those numbers as well. And uh it spits out basically what your rating is. Um, and so instead of you play a game, you play a bunch of matches, you throw in some scores, and you hope to see what your rating is, um Bear's idea is like we want to see what you look like. We want to see the decision making you make, we want to see the choose this the shot selection that you make, we want to see um how good yours your shots are after you make that choice. Um and so I think ultimately that's sort of the way the game needs to go, and that's kind of the way technology um is is pushing us with the you know with um AI sort of coming into it. So the idea is having you can send in a video you're just playing, you play a bunch of matches, and somebody can evaluate you, or that you can have somebody come to you and evaluate you either way, and then uh they can tell you what you are, and what I think what's most important is they can tell you what you need to work on because of that's that scale of 41 different things. You can go, okay, uh, maybe I'm not great in the mid-court on my backhand side off the off the bounce. Um, and that's what you work on. So I think it's more of a tool than what's already out there where it's just giving you, spitting you out a number. It's nice to know, like, okay, how do I become I'm a 4-1, how do I become a 4-5? Um, and it's tell you, here's the areas where you're weak, here's areas where you're excelling, maybe in you know, in drilling, you don't have to work on these areas as much and work on some of these where it's kind of keeping your rate.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Sounds great. It's interesting. You mentioned AI. Where do you see it taking the game? Where do you where what other areas of the game do you see it coming into in, let's say, the next couple years? Because it's moving at a speed that I think is surprising even those of us that knew it was going to move pretty quickly, but it's moving even faster than that, at least in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Yeah, well, I think with uh in VAR's kind of taking a lot of this on. I think scouting your opponents. There's a there's an element in VAR where um you can put in um who you're playing that week, and if they're verified and all that, it'll look at their stuff, and then we'll actually spit out a um a scouting strategy of how to play um this particular team with these particular people. Um, I think also I think AI will be something that comes down to um calling lines, um, not only at the pro level, which is desperately needed if you want to be taken seriously and you want to become an Olympic sport, you can't have people you know calling their own lines, but I think at the amateur level, I see it where we're probably uh you know gonna be able to have um some sort of devices on us. And I think part of this is happening already where lines um are being called by uh my I, you know, my my watch, or you know, there's there's some sort of thing in the paint, or whatever it happens to be, um, you know, let's surs, whatever it happens to be. Uh maybe something with uh the ball um and you know check tracking RPMs and stuff like that. Um I see it's really becoming kind of like gaming is where there's all this data that we have, and it takes the data and organizes it in a way that is useful to us, depending on our personality. Obviously, some people are overwhelmed with the amount of data. Some people are really geeky and into that, and they want to know like um everything they do and all their tendencies. I don't I don't think we're that far away from sort of it being able to really pick our game apart and also sort of regulate it in a lot of ways on court.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

It's interesting commentary, Mike. It really is because they're you know, the old days, let's say, you know, two months ago. Yeah. The old days before AI came along. Yeah, you when you stepped into a tournament, and I've done a few small tournaments, uh, nothing just more local than anything, but you know, you'd get into a game with somebody you'd never met. And so it'd take you a couple of points to figure out, you know, is Mike weak on the left hand, the backhand, how does he deal with the lob? You know, what kind of drive does he have? But what you're telling me is AI is going to be able to give me that cheat sheet, if you will, against Bob and Joe that I know I'm facing off, you know, this coming weekend. I that's that's fine. I didn't realize that was happening. So thank you. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yeah, yeah, that is fascinating to me too. Like you can literally get a scouting report on people. Um, and obviously the more people that enter um that their data, uh, the the more that will grow. And I, you know, it it I think it happens fast, just like this sport took off fast. If it gets, you know, this becomes something people want, um, then you know, in a few years, you know, everybody can go, oh well, I'm gonna play Mike. Uh, let's get the little scouting report on him. Oh, body bang him up in the chest.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah, he's weak. Well, mine would say you have nothing to worry about. That would be the AI would very quickly say, There's nothing here to think about. Nothing. He's got nothing. So he's weak, left, right, anything. Yeah. Start blowing kisses. If you blow kisses at him, it really upsets him. That part you throw him right off his game. So and listen, I love AI primarily because I have NI, which is no intelligence. So AI and I are great friends. Listen, I struggled to get through grade 12. I swear to God, yeah, they kicked me out because they were tired of seeing me. So yeah, I I did it the old-fashioned way. I just went out and worked my guts out. So yeah, fascinating. Do you think final question on AI? Because I'm fascinated by it and the game and you. Uh, so all three coming together in this question, but is it good for the game or bad for the game? Or can you answer it that simply?

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Um, yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. I I already missed sort of um I sort of actually miss I I wish I would have found this game a little earlier because I sort of missed before the the paddle technology explosion. Um the way I sort of play and the way I like to play is I really like to play the soft game. And uh the advent of power and the the amount of spin we can we can put on these the ball now is uh somewhat ridiculous. I sort of wish I would have been playing, you know, even in the 90s when it was just played in mostly gyms. Like my wife taught PE and she was teaching in 2003, and I she'd tell me about it, and I thought, oh, that's a cute little adaptive game.

unknown 32:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

You know, then I think back, oh, if I would have taken this up in 2003.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

But at the same time, it's like one of those things too, where if I would have played back then, I would have been that guy going, Oh, it sucks now, I hate all the technology. So I'm but I don't really know any difference. I came in and started playing in 2021-ish. Yes, and uh yeah, the technology was pretty good then already.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

So yeah, it's interesting. And and of course, T Pronto, I mentioned earlier, it was his dad in 1984. You know that story well as many do, and coming home with those composite prototypes and really shifting the game in that moment, uh into what we're seeing today. But well, listen, thanks for all of that. That was great. I mean, I love your insight into all of that, Mike. And it's um yeah, it's it's going to be very interesting. I think when we go to that social level, which we have mentioned earlier, is really where most of us or many of us plug into. Certainly those hopefully listening to this are coming out of that camp. But if there's one thing that is, you know, maybe a pickleball pain point, you know, you mentioned line calls, and it is, you know, for me at least one of them. It's I don't mind the odd myths. We all make mistakes. I don't care what game you're in on a Tuesday morning, somebody's gonna call one out that was in and vice versa. But boy, when you're up against a guy or a gal across the net, that's just, you know, it's just consistently, and it's it's a tough thing. Right, right, right. You know, you hear stories periodically about people jumping the net and beating the hell out of one another on the other side, you know. Like I don't advocate for that, but I, you know, I'm not saying I haven't thought about it. You know, I thought, come on, enough is enough. It's a fair game, and I think there's some sportsmanship that's expected and anticipated. And and I don't know if these people that do it consistently, and we we know who we're talking about. We all have a few at our club. It's um are they just not seeing it or they just really want to win that badly? And I can't answer that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah, I can't answer that either.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, it's a tough call. Tell me about NCPA. Tell me about that. What's the what's the story behind that?

SPEAKER_01 34:17

So I think obviously you know, junior youth, collegiate pickleball is sort of the future. Those are the pipelines, and the National Collegiate Pickleball Association is one of them. I think there's three total uh organizations uh promoting and running uh collegiate pickleball. And I'm involved on the board with one of them. And that's really just kind of helping set up relationships, partnerships, because I that's what I do. I, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I review products and I interview people in the industry, and so I have a lot of connections, and that's really my role there. But I think ultimately it's really building the game from a youth level. I, you know, I was out uh beginning of December in Arizona for an event, and it wasn't a college event, it was uh just kind of a semi-pro event, but there was a semi, this team of that was from an academy in Tempe, Arizona, and it was all the kids looked like they were probably ages 12 to 14 and you know, five foot nothing, uh 90 pounds, and like I was like, oh whoa, like this is what's coming. These kids had every move, every shot, every spin. I was like, what's happening? I actually I felt bad about kind of the point where I am. I'm like, I don't know if I should play this anymore. I'm like, is this what's coming? And I was like, I just couldn't take my I mean I was watching this kid, he must have been maybe five foot tall, boy, maybe a hundred pounds, just you know, his bones aren't even developed yet, and just every shit. He looked like a mini, you know, Hayden Patrick Quinn, just running around, spin this way, spin that way, just toying with these guys who I've actually played against, um, you know, grown men who are in their 30s and 40s, who are very good players, like high 4-0, low five five-o, and just making them look ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Really? He just shows them up. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah. And so that's sort of what's coming. And that's I I'm excited to work with organizations like that because it's fun to see where this game could be. I mean, I'm sure like any sport, when we look at the the first five, six years of the pro level of any game, and we look at it where it is now a hundred years later for some of these sports, we don't even recognize it. Um, and this sport is seems to be on um sort of steroids as far as how it's developing so fast, and it's a long way from being solved, but I imagine it's gonna look sort of like table tennis shortly, where it's just these, you know, just controlled spin, and you you're like, how do you even see the ball?

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Well, it's true. And you know, even at the club level, at my level that I'm playing at, uh, you know, if there's a complaint from sort of my group that started just three years ago to emphasize your point, uh, we're all complaining now because it was absolutely serve, return, drop. Serve, return, predictable, expected. Now it's serve, return, gosh knows what's coming. And most of the newer players come into our club and the demographic shifting downwards. So we're seeing a slightly younger demographic, which is great. I'm all for that, but they're smashing everything. I mean, there is no third shot drop for most of these, and it is upsetting the social teacup. You know, that's starting to wobble our saucer a little bit. And those that have been playing in this league for several years now, Mike, are not happy about it. And they're complaining. But who do you complain to? And what are you complaining about? It's a legal shot. Same with lobs. I mean, no, we've got lob lobs. You know, it you can debate the lob all day long. It's a legal shot. And against the right opponent, it's effective. So there's all these camps, and uh, you know, I kind of get caught in the middle because I'm an advocate for the game growing and and changing and adapting and adopting new policies, rules, and so on, and so forth. It has to happen because I think if we look at pickleball compared to, say, golf or curling, legacy sports been around longer than time, we're still in diapers. Right. I mean, we're a sport that is literally wearing diapers. And so we have to expect change, and we have to be able to look at the technology and the rocket launchers that are coming out from all these paddle manufacturers, and we have to deal with it. So, yeah, it's a really fascinating conversation. But yeah, these young kids, and there's this age-old debate in golf. You know, who is the best golfer? Was it Jack Nicholas or Tiger Woods? Well, you can't, in my, I've never been able to support that argument. The technology, the equipment, the team around Tiger. I mean, there was Jack Barbara in the car. I mean, and the kids in the backseat driving from Phoenix to wherever they were heading next. I mean, Tiger's got private jets and nutritionists and psychologists and trainers, and the equipment's tuned right to his exacting. So, I mean, a great golfer, no question. Was he the greatest in that moment? Sure, but was he the greatest against Jack? What will be fun is what does pickleball do with that conversation down the road? How do we look at? Yeah.

unknown 38:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Because we're gonna look at the numbers. You know, we're sort of in what I would call the um uh Cy Young era of pickleball. You know, Cy Young had like 500 wins, nobody's gonna touch that, but he played in the first, you know, whatever part of the game. Yeah, Annalee Waters, nobody's gonna break those records. Ben Johns, nobody's gonna touch those records. Um, mainly because the depth of field isn't what it was. No, yeah, um, but that doesn't mean she's not fantastic because my argument is she's top five guy in the world if she's a guy. Yeah. She's not. So she could be, she could step up. She played, if her and Ben played men's doubles, I like their chances at least get into the semis, if not the finals, often.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, Annika Sornstam tried that.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

It makes the great sport great because it's obviously uh, you know, a sport where genders can really compete against one another.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Yeah, but it was to go back to golf, Annika Sornstam tried that in the PGA, came out of the LPGA and tried that for a few few events to just to test the waters and see how that went. So it'll be interesting to see if that happens. Yeah, listen, I'm watching the clocks. I'm gonna be extremely careful and being careful of of all of that. So thank you. No worries. Um, I talked to Jim Closs yesterday. You might know the name Jim Closs, but you know, he was just talking about how great she is and what a player. And so, you know, there's a lot of people agreeing with what you just said. And uh yeah, we'll see what time does to that legacy, and it will be it will be quite a fascinating part of it. So yeah, thanks for all that. Love your insight. It was just great. Let me step out of all of that, unless there was something else in that note that you had sent me that you really want to make sure we touch on. But here's a couple of sort of pickleball-specific questions that I'd really like to get your opinion on. And one of them is what do we do about difficult partners? You know, we've all been in that game where, you know, it's not going great. I'm having a bad day. Maybe my nutrition isn't great. I didn't focus on my sleep. It's, you know, it's a slightly competitive game. So I'm not talking about your social game, but let's just say a regional tournament even or a slightly more competitive game that you're in once in a while. But you've got a partner that's rolling their eyes, they're sighing. You know, what as a player and and I guess as a voice within the community today, Mike, how do how do you approach that? Because I think many of those listening right now will have experienced that difficult partner. What what's the solution to that?

SPEAKER_01 40:50

I don't know if there's a solution. I might know my methodology is um I generally tell people that um at the end of the day, this is a wiffle ball game we're playing here. We do realize that, right? Like we are hitting literally a wiffle ball around and taking it probably a little way too seriously. And the second part is if something like that will continue to I'm like, I just don't have time for that. Um I don't have the time or energy. I've left groups of um playing groups. Um I a story that uh I can give you is uh private court people inviting us and people complaining about line calls and stuff like that. And I was just like, I don't really need this in this group. Um there's plenty of other groups I can play in. There's too much bickering going on here in these groups, in this group. And so um I move on pretty quick because it's a big pool of people, uh, a lot of opportunities, and uh life's too short for me to be uh having that sort of uh cortisol rush over a whiffle ball game.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

It's so true. And it's no fun when the game shifts from two on two to three on one, and that's fundamentally what happens in that moment. I mean, I've had it where I'm yeah, I am so worried about the guy next to me. I'm not even thinking about you and your partner across the net anymore. And it's it's a troublesome. But the reason I asked that question is I'm seeking insight on that because a lot of the people I play play with have brought that up to me. You know, they've come up to me and said, Well, boy, Bob did it again today. You know, he's back at it again today, and we got to deal with Bob. And nobody wants to deal with Bob, but somebody's got to figure out how to tell Bob what he's doing isn't helping. So yeah, appreciate your thoughts on that. Final question um before we wrap up is your thoughts on the number of pickleballs being produced globally today, from what I've gathered, is somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 million across the globe.

unknown 42:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

How many of these are being pulled out of games? They're cracked, they're they're warped, they've gone soft. And I know at my club here locally, Kingston, Ontario, Canada, we don't have a recycling program. We've looked into it. My wife and I started the game about three years ago, and it was probably the first thing that really got under our skin. Well, listen, I love this game, and there's very little about the game I would ever complain about or be critical of, but that's one point that really doesn't sit well with me. I don't see the ball manufacturer stepping up and offering a solution. I don't see the governments in our area stepping up. I don't see the club stepping up. Most of the balls that come out of play at our club are going in the trash can. So I talked to a kid out of Florida yesterday named Dylan Rosenthal. He started a company called Bounce Back Pickle. He's collecting balls from hundreds of locations ultimately and uh reproducing these back into pickleballs, which is fascinating. So he's not just grinding them down and the you know, the remnants of that are being used for something else. He's actually creating pickleballs out of old pickleballs. So, where do you land on that? I mean, you live in a yurt. Clearly, I get a sense, and again, because I know you so well, as I said at the start, because I watch I know you, you know, we have an intimate relationship. I know you so well. You know, you must not be happy about this, is my sense. Um, I get a sense you're a good guy. Where do you land on on all of the sort of landfill material that we're creating as pickleball players each year?

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Oh, yeah, it's a it's a nightmare. Uh this whole sport's plastic. So yeah, I've I've interviewed people who too, like uh Dylan, who are do doing different things, and I think those uh Businesses will grow because there's opportunity there to create something that's useful and uh clearly needed. So I hope those types of individuals continue to pursue those areas and there's more of them that come aboard. Um we use uh at our courts, one of the balls we use is a bio ball, and I think that's something that uh degrades a little faster um than a standard ball in a in a landfill. But yeah, I'm with you. Um I think the ball needs to actually ultimately change. And and not just obviously from the plastic, which we talked about, but where to put it. But the noise. Uh this is plastic on plastic sport, and as the infrastructure continues to grow in different communities and different housing developments, it's gonna be hard if you got 16 courts next to you and people playing at 6 30 in the morning whacking these balls around. I can't imagine the noise level of that. So I do think there are things to work on in this game. Um, and one of them is the ball. We put a lot of stress in um sort of focus on paddles and what they're doing and how much spin they're creating, and da-da-da-da-da. And I'm like, I think we can put more emphasis on the ball, it'd be a cheaper thing to work on. Um and ultimately, if we make the ball soft enough or malleable enough that the noise will drop and the paddle um speed will also drop because the ball is a little mushier. I remember in PE when I was a kid, you know, we weren't playing with a 12-inch hard softball. We'd have the rubber-coated thing that would turn into an egg a little bit as he hit it because it slows the ball down. And we're spending all this money testing paddles and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, hey, just make the ball mushier. Come on. And hey, make it something that we can actually use again. Uh so I do think that's coming. I know there are people working on this uh very hard. Um, and I look forward to that sort of happening because I think it's it's desperately needed in several areas.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Yeah, great point. Wasn't thinking about noise pollution, but that's there too, right? I mean, if you want to term it as such. And and it's one of those things, those of us that love the game certainly don't want 12 courts in our backyard on a Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

Oh, yeah, I get it. Yeah, I don't want to. We're sitting here in my urine all suddenly hear click, click, click, click for us, four hours or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

No, it could go on all day, and I could see it being a real issue. And it has been certainly in our municipality, in our in our city here, it's it's it's an it's about to fire up again. The snow's melting. We're almost able to see the lawn again. And here we go. We're gonna transition from the indoor club play to the outdoor, and I guarantee you within the next 30 or 40 days, there's gonna be, you know, some flare up somewhere, and somebody's gonna, you know, bring it up and away we go again for another season of it. So yeah, it's fascinating. Well, listen, this has been enlightening and encouraging, and uh, it's been a real pleasure meeting you. What what can we look forward to from you in the next six to 12 months? What's what's on the agenda, the radar that you can share with us that those of us that are following you and excited by what you're doing and love your voice and love your honesty and all of this, what uh what lies ahead for you in the next little bit?

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Yeah, really it's sort of a three-prong approach. I work with obviously PMA, which we talked about, trying to build membership. It's free, trying to encourage people to just get in there and collaborate with one another. Um, it's it's a form of marketing, I think, that we can all really use because it's cheap. Um, you don't, you know, like I mentioned, you don't have to spend money just to kind of share each other's posts and support each other's work. Um and potentially, obviously, if you if you have a panel that you want approved and you don't want to spend tens of thousands of dollars, this may be an approach to look at. VARE is kind of integrated in that, so I'll be working with VAR as well, trying to get a rating system embedded in our world that um is makes sense and we have to we know what we have to work on in the areas with that we have to approve upon. And then the last thing is sort of the fun aspect of this. I promote pickleball cruises. Um, I work for a company called Daily Travels. And uh, if you want to take a cruise, jump on a boat, man, and uh hit some whiffle balls around on a on a ship.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

I love it. Well, listen, your generosity in so many ways, Mike, is not uh it's not missed on me personally, and I don't think it's missed on the pickleball community. So I thank you for that. You give so much. And and even this, I mean, when I reached out to you, full disclosure, I didn't expect to hear back from you. And not because I had an opinion of you, just because here I am. I haven't even launched the podcast yet. I promised myself 15 episodes would be done, polished, and ready to go because I needed to buy some runway ahead of this. I I think I have an appreciation for the amount of work it's gonna take, and I certainly have understood that better in the last month or so. But for you to have gotten back to me and agreed to be here today, I think just reminds me of why I love this game. It's people like you. Yes, and we're just everywhere. And you know, to be able to talk to someone like you uh basically creeped you out on the internet and tracked you down, and uh here we are today, Chatty.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

You're very good at this, by the way. You're you you have the voice for it, you have the patience for it, and um you're you don't do what I'm doing right now, talking over someone. But uh, I think you have a pretty bright future in this. You're you're very good at it. You're a natural.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

You're too kind, you're too kind. But I I think it comes from a position of passion. It really does. I love this game immensely, and I love the people. And you'll often hear me say, if we bump into one another, boy, I sure like the game, but I love the people. And I think if you come at life from that perspective, and we've always drilled that into our two boys, Mike. It's honesty and integrity. We're paramount in raising them. And I think, you know, part of the game that I'm worried about a little bit is that we're getting away from some of that, with some of the things that you've mentioned. I just hope we hang on. I just hope it's it's such a great game, and it started in earnest. It started for all the right reasons because the kids were driving them crazy on Bainbridge Island. And, you know, if you think back to those moments and and you see where we are today and the battles that were happening in the film that you're involved in, the storyline behind all of that, please, let's just not lose it because it's the greatest game in the world. It really is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Right. Yeah, let's bring it back to the people because uh that's what it's really about at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

So 100%. You've been great. Well, thanks for this. I appreciate all your time and I really appreciate your kind words. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Absolutely. Thank you.