Ottawa Pickleball Association- President Diana Dowthwaite

What does it take to build one of the most organized and respected pickleball communities in North America?

In this episode of Kitchen Conversations – Stories Behind the Paddle, I sit down with Diana Dowthwaite, President of the Ottawa Pickleball Association, to unpack the incredible growth of the game—and how the OPA has quietly become a blueprint for how to do it right.

From humble beginnings—chalk lines on cracked tennis courts—to a 700+ member powerhouse with a waitlist of 1000 players, this is the story of leadership, vision, and community.

We get into:

• Why pickleball is solving something deeper than just sport
• How OPA built a skills-first development model (not just rec play)
• The truth about ratings systems—and why OPA ignores them
• The secret behind creating instant community and lifelong friendships
• The biggest threat to the game right now (and it’s not what you think)
• How structured play at level is transforming player experience

“Pickleball isn’t just about the game… it’s about connection, purpose, and belonging.” 

If you want to understand where pickleball is going—and what great leadership in this space actually looks like—this conversation is required listening.

🔗 Ottawa Pickleball Association (OPA)

👉 Official Website: https://ottawapickleballassociation.com/
👉 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Ottawa.Pickleball.Association

🎧 Watch More Episodes

👉 Full Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@KitchenConversationspodcast

💬 Join the Conversation

Have you experienced the “pickleball effect”?
Drop a comment below 👇
What has this game brought into your life beyond the court?

🏓 Hashtags

#OttawaPickleball #PickleballCanada #KitchenConversationsPodcast #PickleballCommunity #PickleballLife #PickleballGrowth #PickleballClub #PlayPickleball #PickleballAddict #DinkLife #PickleballNation #SportsCommunity #ActiveLifestyle #PickleballTraining #PickleballSkills #PickleballLeagues #PickleballCulture #CanadianPickleball #PickleballPodcast #GameOfALifetime

And that wraps up this episode of Kitchen Conversations.

If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone who loves the game as much as you do.

And if you want the full experience, including the visuals, head over to YouTube and watch the episode at

https://www.youtube.com/@KitchenConversationspodcast

Or search Kitchen Conversations Pickleball Podcast

That’s where these stories really come to life.

You’ll also find links and show notes in the episode description.

Until next time…

more than dinks, drops and drives…

these are stories from behind the paddle.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, and welcome to uh the podcast. Welcome to my little podcast. Uh we are Kitchen Conversations. It's a podcast all about pickleball, but not specifically how to play pickleball, but more so the people behind the paddle, the people that that love playing the game. And uh and our goal in very simple terms is to hopefully inspire someone, and maybe that's you, to get off the couch and try this game for the very first time. And we think this episode today with President Diana Deuthwaite from the Ottawa Pickleball Association is going to be successful in that endeavor. We had a chance to sit down and talk to Diana recently about all the things that the Ottawa Pickleball Association is up to. And she is incredibly proud, and rightfully so, of the programming and the commitment that they have to the game of pickleball. Enjoy this episode with Diana Deuthwaite, president of the Ottawa Pickleball Association here on Kitchen Conversations. Well, Diana, welcome to Kitchen Conversations. Welcome to the podcast. And let me start by thanking you for being here. I have so much I want to get into this evening with you in a conversation. There's just lots to cover. But uh I need to start by thanking you personally for all of your support for the podcast. When I look back through my guest list, three people that have been on the podcast so far, the the release dates of some of those are yet to be determined, but Dr. Colin Campbell and uh Andrea Douglas, and of course Matthew Kaomoda, and we'll talk about Matthew, I'm sure, at some point. But uh I just really need to say thank you. Uh reached out to you kind of out of nowhere and asked if you would like to be on the podcast. And from there, you've you've been just so generous in connecting me with really three incredible guests. So thank you. I want to thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

My pleasure. There's lots of interesting people that are working and volunteering in the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Isn't it something? Yeah. My wife keeps saying, how do you keep getting these people to come on a podcast with a guy that's never done a podcast? I said it's pickleball. If I was, if it was anything else, I think I'd be getting a lot of no thank yous. But yeah, the pickleball people are just amazing. So yeah, so thank you. I appreciate all that help. I'd like to uh break tonight's conversation down, if we can, into three rallies, Diana. I've had some luck with this. It kind of makes sense. I think the listener gets a chance to get to know a little bit about you and your background, and then uh we'll dive into rally two, which is kind of the game of pickleball, and we'll talk extensively about that tonight. And then third rally is really the focus of the podcast, and that's to discuss the Ottawa Pickleball Association, your role, your involvement. I know you're very proud of the club. We've had some off-camera conversations about it, and I'm really inspired and impressed by the mandate that you have in place and the hard work that you and the and the board are doing there. So if you don't mind, can we start with maybe talking a bit about your background, maybe a touch on your working career, any sports that maybe have played in your life? And then uh yeah, from there we'll jump into Rally Tube.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Uh so grew up in Nova Scotia. So husband and I were uh in Nova Scotia and then came to Ottawa for obviously for a federal government job, and then uh still with family in Nova Scotia, and we settled in Ottawa, and I had a career with the federal government, ending as a government executive with national programming. And just I just retired pre-COVID, and husband came here, and he's a he was a high school teacher and a coach, and so there's been a real use for Paul with the Ottawa Pickleball Association. And uh, so we settled in Ottawa and and raised our two children and always went back to Nova Scotia with lots of Nova Scotia links, and then uh definitely sports is a huge part of both Paul and my uh life from a coaching perspective and from a playing perspective. I played volleyball for about 34, 35 years, coaching and playing. So that was a very nice transportable skill set to pickleball and coached soccer and volleyball, and husband coached the kids as well. So we spent a lot of time with our kids coaching and playing. And uh part of the time, pre-children, I I um so volunteering was a really big part of my life. So I was a big sister with the big sisters organization, and then I was on the board with big sisters as well. So volunteering with my children and volunteering for something I believe in has always been a really important.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah, I love it. Isn't it absolutely amazing when we look back on some of that, Diane? I know Fran and I do, you know, we had the two boys and they were heavily involved in sports as well. But we we will often now look back and go, how how did we do it? How did we how do we end up in two places at the same time? Because we had one child over here, another one over here. We were busy. We had you know a small family business that kept us busy and we loved it. But um, I look back now at, you know, I'm 59, but I look back in those, you know, when I was in my late 20s, early 30s and going through all that and into my 40s, and I don't know where the energy came from.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

I I mean I know because we had both girls were in high-level competitive sports. So we we drew straws. Like one was in Toronto for hockey, the other one was in Montreal for ringette or for soccer. So it was a huge part of our lives spending time with our children, supporting our children.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

And uh Well, you know, I I I've admitted this on previous podcasts, and I don't mind sharing it with you, but uh, you know, I cried uh at the final games for both of my boys in high school. I knew neither were going on to varsity level university. They were, you know, they're gonna play pickup this and that and and whatever. But uh there was a moment as a parent when I recognized that this friend group that I had created through sports, through the kids' lives. And, you know, we all know what that's like, and and and it was wonderful. And we met some of the most amazing people. And I think that's part of what I love about pickleball. I've kind of replaced that group a little bit later in life, uh, unknowingly getting into the game and recognizing those friendships and those bonds that get made on the pickleball court. So it's great. And the city of Ottawa, both boys went one to U Ottawa, one to Carleton. So you can imagine there was a little bit of headbutting at the kitchen table because of the panda game and some other things that happened between those two schools. But uh yeah, we have uh very fond memories of the boys being in Ottawa. In fact, our youngest Adam is still there completing his master's uh at U Ottawa and hopes to be in a classroom in Ottawa uh this September. Yeah, but went out today and shot an 81 at Irish Hills, so was thrilled. Yeah. Yeah. He said I ignore the forecast adam, went out and shot the best round of my life. So yeah, so we we think the world of Ottawa, I can see how you and Paul would love it there. And uh it's just a great city. Uh, Fran and I have talked often about that being a possible spot for us down the road, depending on grandkids and all that kind of stuff. But uh yeah, well, great. Well, I appreciate all that. Let's let's jump into rally two because this crazy game that you and I and so many have fallen in love with. What is it? What is it about the magic moment, Diana? That you know, I've I've had so many conversations with people courtside, and I think it really is part of what got me thinking about doing a podcast about pickleball is just the love that we have for this game and the passion. And, you know, we can play every day, twice a day, and it's still not enough. And I'm I'm you know, I'd love to hear your perspective. What do you think it is about the game that hooks people almost immediately?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

So it's interesting because uh a year before I retired, um, I was thinking, what am I going to do? How do I contribute? How am I going to keep myself busy? Um, how do I keep fit? Um, how do I create social circles, social networks? So I'm the type of person, if I want to learn something new, I always take lessons. So there was somebody I played volleyball with who was a big pickleball proponent. So she finally persuaded me, and then we we signed up for pickleball lessons, and that was like a four-week series, and we picked it up very, very quickly with our sports background, and then joined the OPA, the Ottawa Pickleball Association. And then it just kind of just went from there. It just became this a new life, a new way of looking at fitness and social. And I'm the type of person I knew I needed to be busy. Playing probably was not enough. And so I applied or I put my name forward to be a volunteer on the board, and then that opened up a whole wide circle of opportunities. So, what makes pickleball so amazing is from my perspective, is that it's um it's a very social sport. I mean, you you play very short games, and then you you branch off, you tap your paddles, you branch off, you talk about the game, then you come back out again with another different group of four. You uh don't focus on the past 10 minutes, you focus on the next 10 minutes. And uh the part that I think is quite remarkable, because I've seen all different levels coming through the OPA, is that everybody comes in, usually with a different sports background or no sports background. And sometimes a no sports background is even better than a uh a specific sports background, because I really had to work on certain volleyball tendencies that I had that were not necessarily the greatest for pickleball. And everybody can come in with something, and and then you can, it's a very tiny paddle, it's a very um not threatening ball, the space isn't very big, and you know, we we teach children, we've gone into some elementary schools. It's much easier easier to teach children to play pickleball than it is to teach them to play tennis, and so you can come in as a relatively new person to pickleball and you can make contact with the ball. And that's the biggest thing. You can hit the ball over the net. It may go wide, it may go high, but you've contacted with the ball and you participated in a game. And I think that's the beauty of the sport, and you can go wherever you want to with pickleball. You have the opportunity to get better, you know, and take lessons, and you can you will get better. You can play with your friends, you can, you can just continue to improve. And and I think that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, no, all of those are amazing points. And you know, I think when you look at the generational opportunities, Diana, that exist, you can have grandparents playing with, you know, very young grandchildren. And maybe they're not playing quote unquote pickleball in a sense that they're keeping score and they're worrying about rallies, but they are, you know, batting the ball back and forth across the net. And and I've seen it and you've seen it. And it's a moment to be able to see that, you know, a 70, 80-year-old grandparent out there with her grandchild just having the time of their life. And and from there, maybe the the sport becomes something that that young youngster wants to pursue and become, you know, maybe a bit more passionate down the road. But the chance to do that in in pickleball is amazing. And uh it's interesting to hear you talk about volleyball. I talked to Cam Taylor um a couple days ago, and uh, we'll get his podcast out at some point. But he was a volleyball player and he talked about the the blocking being a bit of a benefit to pickleball in a sense of the defensive side of the game. So it's it's very interesting to hear you mention volleyball as well. But he also said people coming in with no sports background is a benefit because they're not bringing bad habits.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

So they don't have any bad habits, yeah. But I think go back to your point about playing with your uh grandchildren. So I have two who two daughters who are not uh one in Toronto and one in Nova Scotia. And every time they come back to Ottawa or we gather, there's always a pickleball game, and they're both phenomenal athletes, but they don't have any clue about what's a non-volley zone and smashing the ball with leaping almost over the net. And it is just the most um the most fun. I mean, I'm the best trash talker with my daughters, and we just have the greatest time, and it's just it's something we can all do together with all our different skill sets, and it just really irritates me to no end. I've worked really hard on different skills to to be able to do different things, and all of a sudden, both of them are doing these shots that I've like had to train so hard, and it's just athleticism and it's it's irritating.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

And yeah, well, the chance to get out and do things like that. We have a 22-year-old, the the one that's in Ottawa, who comes home often enough that we get to play periodically, and yeah, same story. I mean, he runs like yeah, just like the wind out there. He just there's no, he's got a tank full of gas, he never gets tired, and he can do some things that I only wish I could, yeah, I only wish I could do. But uh yeah, I think there's a lot of nuance to the game. And I'm glad you also touched on the length of the game because I think that is a magic part of that moment of falling in love where you're only out there for 10, 12, 15 minutes, and you know, you rattle up a score and you don't particularly care about the score when you come off the court and you, you know, mingle for a bit and then back out you go. It's your paddle turn again and away you go. And uh yeah, it's just something else. And uh I can't quite put my finger on, you know, one specific part of it that stands out, but everything you've mentioned, I agree with 100%. And and the the ability to just go out and I guess also I would say plug in where you'd like to plug in and stay there or take some coaching and take some, you know, some proper coaching and learn to play the game and and try to become one of those better players. But there are so many, I think, Diana, that love it at the rec level, and they're really not maybe necessarily there, not to put words in their mouth, but they may not actually be there for the game itself, but what the game brings them, you know, beyond the game, which is the socialization. And I think this game solves a lot of loneliness. And I think it's often missed on some of us how much loneliness is out there. And to be able to have something to look forward to, even if it's twice a week or three times a week, and you stop by your local club or an outdoor facility, and you know that so-and-so and so-and-so are going to be there and the chance to connect and talk about maybe what's happening politically or with the weather. And you know, the game is sort of the reason we're there, but the benefit we're getting, I think, exceeds the game by leaps and bounds.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

It's interesting. I was teaching uh uh one of our beginner levels um two years ago. I was teaching a group of women that were in this league. And then they told me, it was a couple months later, they and they had they just had met. There were four of them, they had just met, and they told me we're going to Naples for a week for a holiday. And like they didn't even really know each other. They and we did an article on them and they uh in the in our newsletter, and they wrote a and they gave us some photos, and it was just amazing. These four women just met through playing pickleball, taking some lessons, you know, instructor-led lessons, went off to Naples together, didn't really know each other all that well, and had the best week ever playing and dining and whatever they did in their week, and then it became an annual thing, and they're like fast friends. So to me, you cannot find that in almost any other sport.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

And um, I just think that's I love everything about that. My wife, same thing. She and a couple of ladies that met at the pickleball club. There was a couple that knew each other sort of casually, Diana, but they ended up taking off to Iceland of all places and had the time of their life and rented a car and shared accommodations and toured around, you know, for a week together and still play regularly twice a week now. And uh yeah, it's something, and I agree. I can't think of another sport where that sort of friendship becomes so ingrained and so quickly. And and uh yeah, I love all that. So, where do you plug in before we wrap up rally two and move on to three and talk about the OPA and all the great things that are happening there? Where do you personally plug into the game today when you're not wearing your OPA hat, you're not, you know, training and drilling and co-work, do you just love social play? Do you do tournaments? Do you like singles, doubles? Tell me, tell me about your game.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

So it's interesting because uh when when I first started and we started playing, my husband and I, we we went into tons of tournaments and it was the coolest thing. And we we would we would win at our levels, right? And I we would proudly like we would take our put our medals on and then take a photo for our daughters. It was only the daughters that ever got the photo, and it's like look what your parents can do, right? And then we would give our medals away. I didn't care about the medals, it was like showing our our children that like mom and dad still have it. Um, so did a lot of tournaments at the beginning and um played most of my play during the winter is with the Ottawa Pickleball Association that at different um opportunities. There's social play, there's tournament prep play, there's mixed leagues. We have lots of different opportunities. And lately I haven't really gone into very many tournaments because it doesn't have the same desire for me. It just I'm not willing to go and give up an entire weekend and sit for two or three hours between matches. And it just doesn't have that same attraction that it did when I first started playing. I'll go into tournaments every so often, but I have a lot of other things I'd like to do that I'm not willing to, you know, give up every single weekend for tournaments. Whereas others love tournaments and playing tournaments all the time and really enjoy the social connection. So I I play every day, um, pretty much every day, but it's different. Almost every day is different. And I'm playing with different people almost every day, which is pretty cool. Two times a week, I'm leading a drilling session uh with a couple of quarts of people, and then other times I'm doing a social play or I'm doing more of a competitive play. So I I find uh I get lots of opportunities during the winter, and then outside, we we move outside almost within the next week or two, and then in with different people outside.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Well, it's just an amazing game. And I think you know, the tournament side, I you know, for someone listening, I mean the goal of the podcast, you know, I you know, I try to mention this every time, and and uh it's a good time to bring it up now. But you know, the the ultimate goal right now, Diana, really is nothing more than to inspire one person per episode to pick up a paddle and try the game for the very first time. That's that's my ambition. I hope one day I get a comment saying I was listening to your podcast with Diane and you know, I've been thinking about the game and I finally picked up a paddle and I went out and I found a local court and I played and I loved it. And and if I get that comment, then I'm gonna I'm gonna be very happy because that's for me, I think if you don't try this game, and maybe it's not for you, but I I it would be a rare person to not fall in love with this game. And I've had the pleasure of introducing dozens of people, you know, uh through volunteer work at the local club here in Kingston to the game for the very first time. And uh it's a moment for me, you know, as a volunteer to see the look on their face and because sometimes they're a little reluctant coming in, but after they hit a few balls and the smile starts and the hook. But uh, you know, I would say on the tournament side, I don't think it's for everybody. And uh, I too have done a few, and they're not my favorite. Uh, I'm considering maybe trying a couple more this year, but uh, it's a different way of playing, isn't it? You talked about the length of time between games. It becomes more of a mental game to me than a physical game during a tournament weekend because you've got to stay focused. Nutrition, hydration. It's a it's work. It's a lot of work to play a tournament.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

And it's a totally different kind of play than you would get if you were playing our leagues in the in the OPA. Um tournament is all about winning. And that means winning means hitting to the weaker player or doing uh a lob on somebody that can't get a lob and doing it over and over and over to be able to win the point or win the game. Um and I'm not sure that winning is the most important thing right now for where I am on the the game. Um, I'm about developing my skills and improving the way I play. And and a tournament play is is different. It's definitely different.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

It is. And I think, you know, I would I would encourage those trying the game, maybe who haven't tried a tournament. I think, you know, I think you should try because your point earlier is well taken. And that is that some people fall madly in love. And I know people at our local club will drill. They don't really play at home, they just drill, drill, drill in preparation for the next tournament. If that happens to be here, great. If it happens to be in London or Windsor or or Naples or wherever. I mean, we had a few members head down to the US Open and play this year, you know, got through and got through the lottery and did it. And uh, so I think it really is a matter of trying it, maybe once and seeing how it sits with you. But uh, yeah, I'm on your side with all that. And I think I have a hard time with the targeting of people. But yeah, in a tournament, that's exactly what needs to happen and it's expected. And uh yeah, you sign up and that's what it is. Well, that's great. Well, I'm glad to hear you're playing every day. I I I'm not quite there yet. I'm I'm probably four times a week, but uh I took about 18 months off, had a bit of a shoulder injury, and I promised myself I'd slowly get back into it. But oh my gosh, it's hard. I can't say no. I just can't, you know, I just it just happened. So I'm not far from being back into it probably five days a week. So yeah, well, that's great. Well, listen, thank you for all of that. Let's jump into rally three because I'm really excited to talk about the OPA and your work there. And and I know when talking to you, uh, you know, lining up some of the guests that I mentioned earlier. And again, thank you for all of your generosity and helping me with that. Um, I know how proud you are of the organization. You hold it in high regard and and compare it against other organizations, perhaps across the country, not just across Ontario. Uh I think you're doing some things that are quite unique. And uh, of course, I had a chance, thanks to you, to talk to Matthew Kalmoda and his mom, Linda, and Stephanie and Jessica. And what a terrific conversation. And the passion that that family has and the reputation that that family has is really just everything that you need to know about pickleball. But um, yeah, Matthew mentioned some of the things that were happening with an OPA. Uh uh, and I'd just love for you to run with this uh this evening and tell me everything that's going on with the organization, your role, and uh yeah, just uh please take your time with this.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Um so very proud of the work of the OPA, and I really think that we're a leader in the organization and the management of play within Ottawa. Uh it's 14 years old from Incorporation. So we're a not-for-profit. We just had a big party at the forge on Saturday on Saturday night with over 200 people came and on the 11 courts to celebrate our 12th anniversary and our year-end party. And it was just absolutely amazing to see all of the members and we invited friends and family as well. So, you know, 12 years ago, um, there were a very few people playing pickleball in Ottawa, but it was it's called like a kitchen table. It's like a kitchen table association that got created uh 12 years ago. So we had um we call them the founders, you know, we had a couple of key people who were um the ones to be thanked for their leadership and getting uh the Ottawa Pickleball Association on the road. And they sat around a table and they were chalking lines on old decrepit tennis courts and trying to find space for where these enthusiastic people could play pickleball. And then they got, what was it, what was it, 50 people put in a toonie and they rented, they rented a hall. Isn't that the coolest thing? They rented a hall and then they got together in the hall and they decided that they wanted to create an association and with strategic direction, and um, somebody pulled money out of their pocket to put the the money on the table for uh being incorporated and creating a board. So it's kind of it was that leadership that led to the creation of the Ottawa Pickleball Association. And and 14 years later, um, I believe we're a leader in probably the most well-organized clubs. I'm probably bragging, but could be in North America. That's just my opinion. But we've got we're we've evolved to the point that we have an executive director who's kind of the backbone of the organization who has created uh we have an online registration, an online payment system, we have an interestingly, and I'll talk about it in a bit, different way of um of levels for our players that's different than anywhere else you'll find. So we have an executive director who's a paid employee, who is kind of the the leader of our organization. We have brought in a head club pro, so we have Matthew uh who leads our um skills development. Um, and so we with those two core people, and we have a really good board, a sound board of volunteers. We have a group of um instructors through the OPA, we have trained assessors in the OPA, and then we have we call them league coordinators who run our leagues as well. And so with that whole cadre of you know our two paint staff and our volunteers, I we have a really sound program that we offer our members. We currently have we're you know started with the 50, we're up to 700 members, but we have a mailing list of probably a thousand people who would love to join the OPA, but we cannot accommodate them because we just don't have the venues. So we have you know, we have a good solid base. We are in 15 different facilities across the city, so we have agreements with a couple of school boards, so we rent the school gyms. We also are in a community center, we've rented some space at the forge, and any new facilities coming into Ottawa, we have a potential new facility coming in that we've negotiated to rent some space from them as well. So we run probably 60 leagues through different uh sessions. So we have a fall session, a winter session, and a spring session. We don't run during the summer. And all of those different league sessions are managed through a league management system that our executive director uh manages. And there's a whole bunch of different kinds of leagues that we offer our members. So we're really big on socials. So there's us we probably three or four different ones that are social. So you play mixed league, mixed levels play, and then you go out for dinner or drinks afterwards. And then we have a tournament prep for those that are really keen on tournaments. We have a couple of tournament prep sessions we offer. We um offer some mixed level leagues, so two different levels will play. So the the lower level gets to play with the higher level, which we piloted with a couple of our different levels with great success. And then we have our regular leagues, and then we offer instruction uh leagues. So instructors are instruct for the majority of the time, and we offer clinics, so we have a huge broad range of offerings for members.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

What an undertaking. But it when you go back to that grassroots moment, you know, those people getting together, having the vision and seeing it, and you know, and you know, I'm interested in this question for you, uh, Dane. I've been thinking about this since I knew you and I would were going to be chatting at some point, but let's go back in the history of the game. Let's go back to 1965, Bainbridge Island, and when it all started, and how it started, and really the innocence of that moment, really. And those three guys, you know, with Barney McCallum and his buddies and the kids were kind of, you know, getting on everybody's nerves. And so they kind of really created almost the perfect game without meaning to. I mean, very little has changed from a rules perspective once they kind of perfected it. You know, I mean, obviously the first couple of years and summers, but really that kitchen line that kept getting moved back and back, because the kitchen, you know, for those that aren't, was not part of the original game. You know, they they implemented that for a reason because one of their friends was, you know, six and a half feet tall and had this unbelievable advantage at the net. But, you know, when I think about the game, and I've had a chance to talk to Hall of Famers like Steve Peranto and uh, you know, the legacy of this game and the importance of that grassroots of getting it started. And I'm interested in your perspective on, you know, the importance of all of that, the the having the right people at the right time. Uh, and you talk about these courts, and I think for those players coming into the game today, myself included, because I've only been around the game for about three years, I don't have a genuine deep appreciation for what pickleball looked like, let's say in Ottawa in 2012 and the court availability or lack thereof. I mean, I know here in Kingston, you know, we had one person in particular, a gentleman named Chuck McDonald, uh, working very diligently with the city to try to get court space and try to take over, if you will, almost abandoned tennis courts, Diane. I mean, he needed a lawnmower more than he needed painter's tape. You know, I mean, these courts were rough. So I'd love your perspective on how you've seen that grassroots movement, the importance of that. And then, you know, looking at the game from an historical perspective, and you know, how where do you see all of that kind of coming together and ultimately ending up with what you have today?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Well, from the stories, from the founder stories, they definitely were going out with those courts that were cracked and they had to fill holes and bring their chalk and do their measuring. And then they were able to, they they had to do a lot with the city to persuade the city to allow pickleball in because most of it when it came in Ottawa was through community centers. It was community centers um using the Bowman lines and then buying a couple of nets. And it's that's kind of where it started was in community centers in Ottawa, and then it just grew from there to um coming into a fully fledged association and then looking for different rental opportunities and expanding the reach. Because it was so funny when my volleyball friend that was persuading me to play pickleball because there wasn't enough people playing and they wanted to bring more athletes in. And it's just a total different situation now because uh when I started as president, we one of our mission statements was to attract people to come in and play pickleball. I mean, that was six or eight years ago, attract people to come in. And it's like we just finished doing a strategic planning exercise, and it's like that's not needed anymore. You know, we have a mailing list of a thousand people who would like to join. So attracting people to come into the sport, that's pretty rare. And it's funny when you you'll see. I was just watching this Netflix show, and and then on part of the show, one of the characters like, I have to leave now, I have to go to my pickleball game. You know, so it's becoming more mainstream, you know. So it's you know, and I think there's supposed to be a pickleball movie, and so it's it's it's come quite far from those fledgling, you know, first steps of filling the cracks and trying to find. I mean, I do believe space is still always going to be the issue. There's there is never enough space and venues to to meet the need of all the people that are interested in playing football.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, well, I think the game had a chance of not making it. I think like many sports, you know, there might have been a moment in history, and I don't know specifically when that was, and maybe no one does, but you know, for some reason it persevered. And I think really since COVID, I think that's when the explosion of the sport really did occur. I think it gained popularity. It took a long time, though, from 1965 to today to get to where it is. But your point's well taken. There, you we it doesn't seem possible, Diana, to build enough courtspace right now, whether we're talking indoor, outdoor, you know, rental facilities, purpose-built facilities, however you wanted to find that, it it is continuing to be a challenge for the game. And I it's so encouraging to hear the wait list that you have in Ottawa. And obviously that speaks volumes to, you know, the reputation, the brand equity within the OPA and the hard work that you know those founders began with that dream, that vision, and to see it where it is today. I mean, it must you must, you know, just be so proud. And and clearly you've got it structured in a way that it's just, I mean, how do you make it any better? You know, what what shortcomings could possibly be there in the way you've structured it? So congratulations on all of that.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

And what's and what's interesting with the OPA that I find different with almost any other organization is we focus on skills development. So we very much are looking for every opportunity we can to develop our players and use all of the different shots that are available in pickleball. Um, we call it, we we focus a lot of our attention on the soft game. And we have success when our players are at the non-volley zone and having long rallies at the non-volley, the non-volley zone versus being at the back of the the court and doing a lot of more um a banging driving kind of game. So we really focus on skills development, and we came up with our own system of um levels for our players. So we found out and done surveys with our members on numerous occasions, and the the point that most people value the most about the OPA is the opportunity to play at level. That is always the biggest complaint in every organization you will ever find in pickleball, particularly pickleball, is I'm better, I I want to play up, and people aren't my level. So we've created our own system. We we we call it color criteria, but it's levels that we've created, and with criteria in each level that moves up from a beginner to a Matthew level to a pro level. And in each of those, and we use colors. So we've just used a rainbow of colors. So your entry point, you're brand new to pickleball, you've never played, you come in as a violet player. And we'll we'll offer you instruction, 12 weeks of instruction to develop you, and then you'll move up to the next level, which is an indigo level. And in each of our levels, we have created um different um, I don't know if you call them categories that we use to assess our players. So if you want to if you want to be at a certain level, there's one, so there's one, two, three, four. There's like five different levels inside your criteria. So we focus on positioning. And there's certain things you need to do at each level from a positioning perspective. We focus on the fast game. What are the things in the fast game, the slow game? Um we look at strategy. Are you moving with your partner at different levels? So we're looking, you know, if you're at a beginning level, it's at a different level of criteria than you would if you're at a higher level. And what we do is um under our head pro, who is um he is our chief assessor, our evaluator, and we have a team of assessment team. We probably have 12 assessors who have been trained, and two times a year, so every and this is a very long and painful process for for everybody, but two times a year we go in the fall and again in the winter, later in the winter, and we assess all of our players to those criteria, the players who are in our leagues. And we just finished doing an assessment session on Saturday. So we have all of the criteria are on the clipboards, we watch our players, we move them around, and they are assessed to the criteria for their level. So they are either at level, they are meeting the criteria of the next level and they get moved up. They may not be meeting their current criteria, and they'll get it's like a report card, and they will be given um the things they need to work on, and they'll be given the rest of the session to work on those skills, and they'll be reassessed to see if they've improved. And if not, and this doesn't happen very often, they'll be moved down a level. So we take that level play very seriously. Um, and that I if I was going to say one thing that makes us the most unique is the credibility of our assessment system.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

I can't imagine, and I assume that the membership embraces this in a way that makes sense because I think that's what we all want as players, Diane, is to be playing, you know, in a game that maybe we, you know, that we're properly, you know, prepared to play in. And it's interesting. I played socially today, and and uh, you know, I pulled a guy aside at the end and I said, listen, I I'm not sure why you're here. I don't know if it's to win games. If if it's important to you to go home and just be able to say, hey, I played eight games, I won seven. But I said, you spent the whole day when I was with you targeting the less experienced player. And I like to call it less experienced. And I said, and that's great, but I said, you know, there is some value in you perhaps throwing. I said, the only time I hit a ball today was when you had to serve to me. And the rest of the time, you know, I sat there and watched three people, you know, try to play pickleball. And so we had a really nice chat courtside. But I think there's no direction there for him to try to figure out, you know, why am I doing this? And and I, you know, so I'm interested. The membership seems to embrace this because it sounds to me like it's a pretty like I have never heard of this before, to be quite honest, that a club doing it at the level that you that you are doing it at.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

And it's interesting when we when we do these assessments and we tell the players, everybody's nervous when you're being assessed, you know, especially being assessed as an adult. I mean, how painful is that, right? But we're we tell them and we don't care about the score. In fact, sometimes when we're doing assessments at some of our lower levels, we don't keep score. It's just first server, second server. So the focus is not on winning, the focus is not on the score. The focus is on the criteria that you're being assessed to. And the criteria says attempt a third shot.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

You know, play in a banking rally of three or four shots, serve deep, return deep. Um, but so we have, you know, the words change as the levels increase, but there's a there's really a strong encouragement for our members to use the third shot drop, to use the third shot drive when it's necessary to get you to the fifth shot drop, you know, so and then to get to that net and to participate in that rally that we really strongly encourage. And we did try um some time ago, experiments with um ladder leagues or like more putting a competitive angle into it, and we find it just it totally changed the way people played. It put it back into a tournament play. Stronger player didn't touch the ball, just like we're talking about right now. Weaker player got all the balls and were targeted. And that's not the playing that we want to support in the OPA. We want everybody to uh to participate and to have the opportunity to improve.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

Well, I can't I can't say enough about that. I mean, I think you know, it is the most beautiful game when it's played properly. And I think this is what you're getting at here, uh, Diana, is the sense of trying to educate people, to share the knowledge and to say, listen, the game's designed around certain parameters and certain expectations. And I always laugh. I call it the accidental reset. You'll see it at social play, you know, you'll see serve, the return. And I think if you start counting rallies at that, you know, that violet level, the indigo level, if you will, I mean, the number of rallies, you know, if you get to four, it's a pretty good rally. Um, but the moment that that group hits a double-digit rally, and maybe it's by mistake, like it wasn't even by design, then all of a sudden you can see them going, Wow, this is a different game. And and I really think what you're doing is incredible. And and and again, I haven't been around the game that long, but I feel fairly connected to the game. And uh I have a lot of people that I chat with here, there, and everywhere. And I can't think of anywhere else where I'm hearing a program like that, a commitment to educating. And because really I think that's what we're talking about is education. We're educating them about the game, the essence and the nuances within the game. And uh, so good on you. I think it's just fantastic. Yeah, it really is. Good for you.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Yeah, it no, it's and there is a huge commitment to you know, our volunteer assessors and a commitment by our membership as well. I mean, evaluation being assessed is not for everybody. And so, you know, some people, this is not something they they like, and and then others really embrace it. Because as I said, play at level, number one priority.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yeah. Well, it's just again, it just if you can get over that hurdle, get over that emotional roadblock, perhaps, of being assessed and and recognizing that maybe moving down when it does happen, if it's rare, and I I I heard that, but you know, maybe that is the best thing for your game. And maybe you will end up loving the game longer, enjoying the game better, and ultimately becoming a better pickleball player. I think sometimes we have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. You know, if we're just keep walking into a brick wall, Diana, we're not getting anywhere. And the only way around the brick wall is to back up, take a look at the brick wall, and go, well, hey, let's go this way. And yeah, it's I'm sure it's a difficult conversation in the rare times it happens. But, you know, with someone like Matthew Kawamoda, who I think, you know, if you don't know who Matthew is listening to this podcast, you need to go to the Google and you need to look into this young man and you need to find some video footage of him playing. It was just unbelievable how just incredible he is. And and then to meet him and to understand his personality and that of his family and their commitment to the game, and there's so much to love about it, but they are just everything about pickleball that I think we're all so proud of.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

So yeah, and so what's interesting, Matthew, it's the perceptiveness. I'm not sure if that's even the right word. Um, he can look at a player and he sees things that I couldn't see in a million years, you know, and and can provide that advice, that coaching advice. You know, you're moving to the right, your paddles here, turn, or and that has been invaluable for for anybody who's participated in one of his clinics or training opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Yeah, for sure. Well, this has all been great conversation. I'm mindful of the clock. We've been on for about 50 minutes, so I don't want to I don't want to take advantage of that. But um, a couple of final questions for you. And then if there's anything that I didn't get to, because I'm brand new at this, so I'm not going to confess to be the best person to be doing this side of the microphone, but want to definitely give you a chance to touch anything that we missed on. But where do you and where do the OPA see artificial intelligence factoring into the game today? It's something I've been asking, you know, different people at different times, but it's clearly coming. You know, I talked to uh gentlemen this morning, well, I guess early this afternoon, and they're implementing some AI technology in combination with a new pro that they've hired uh at Smash Pickleball. Uh Brett Shepley and I had a chance to catch up. And so he sees uh an intersection of AI and human touch still, you know, being very important. Where are you guys sitting on all of that today?

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Probably not as far in the thinking as we should. Should be. I know that there's some members who are using that to they video their game and they're using it for analysis. Um it's tricky when you have an organization of 700 people. It's fair, and when we're going out and assessing 60 leagues uh with 15 people per league, it's just time is an issue. Time is definitely an issue for us. We'll go out and send an assessment team out to a league for two hours or three hours. Um, and they have to look at 15 players with all of that criteria. So it is something we need to look at more and to see if that's something that we could incorporate into our assessment system, our process, but in a way that doesn't become burdensome to the timing that we have. Um it's it's pretty tricky to get to 60 leagues, you know, within three weeks and to have that data that we're able to tell players that they're moving up, they're moving down, or they're staying. So we're struggle with that. Um, but I know that it is something that is evolving and that we're probably going to have to do more time and more thinking.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Yeah. Well, it'll be interesting as well, I think, Diana, to see where it might play a role in the pro levels, you know, when you start talking perhaps line calls or or things like that. And uh we're we're just not going to get away from it. I think, you know, as a parent of two kids looking for work and finding work, luckily, but uh, you know, AI is certainly impacting the job market. And just there's it's so broad and so wide and so far reaching that it would be, you know, I mean, it will impact pickleball and every other sport on the planet for that matter, in some way, some form, some fashion. And I just hope whatever it does, that it benefits the game and doesn't detract from the game. That's sort of, you know, my my kind of backhead thinking on it all. But uh the other question I had for you was duper. Um, and almost afraid to say that today because it it seems to be a bit of a hot button. But are you a fan of duper? And um, I had someone say recently that duper has one fundamental problem. You can be, you know, you can have a duper rating at a club level, and then that's a totally different rating at tournament play. So we talked earlier about tournaments, but it's one thing to go in and play against Bob and Sue every week, every time, and you get to know Bob's weaknesses and where you know Sue doesn't handle the lob so well. And so, you know, their their opinion of duper was it's not particularly valuable. And I'm just I'm curious what your thoughts are on that rating.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

From an OPA perspective, not valuable at all. Um so again, we're back to our criteria. Our criteria is age-free and gender neutral. Okay, it's really important. So our criteria applies to the 20-year-old active and the 70-year-old active. So um what we've seen and is that you know you could have a 70-year-old win a 4.0 tournament against 70-year-olds in that category, but would they win the tournament if they played against 20-year-olds? And so you're gonna get when you're 4.0 as your 70-year-old in your criteria of your or your tournament for 70, but unable to compete with 20-year-olds at a 4.0, and yet they're getting a 4.0 rating. So, what we've done is we've taken age and gender out, and it's we evaluate everybody you're 70, you're 20, you're 50, we don't care. We don't care if you're male or you're female or whatever. We are evaluating you to the criteria. And the criteria talks a lot about third shots. Are you positioning? Are you traveling up to the non-volley zone with your partner? Are you making the right shots? Are you can you maintain a rally? Can you change from a fast game to a slow game? So what that's what we're looking at. And so the duper doesn't we're not interested in it in our program that we offer in any way whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Yeah. Well, it's an interesting insight. I appreciate being so candid about that because it's an interesting topic. And there's I mean, there's people that are loving it, and then there's people that call it pooper duper and stuper duper. And so it's a it's um, I certainly in Kingston, I know it's it's one of those conversations that I hear almost every time I'm at the club, either courtside in the lobby, in the parking lot, like you know, coming and going, somebody's upset about their duper. Like there's always somebody going, What happened to your duper?

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Like, my just you know, and it's it's interesting. So somebody wanted to get people together, their duper rating was too high. And so if they wanted to register for the nationals, they would have to play at a 5.0 plus level, but they want to play with their partner because they're really at a 4.5 level, and so they're looking to see if they can get matches to lower their duper level, and then there's somebody else I know whose level was too low.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Yeah, it's just uh Yeah, I think I mentioned I took about 18 months off from the game. I had a bit of a shoulder injury and had some cobwebs in my head with the game. I was overthinking everything, and so ended up doing a lot of travel. My wife and I drove across Canada and the US. We had the time of our lives in retirement, as you mentioned earlier, and we just loved it. But I didn't literally pick up a pickleball paddle for almost 18 months. So I uh integrated back into the game last fall, started playing here, there, and everywhere, and uh again playing more regularly. But um so I signed up for my duper account literally two weeks ago because uh I'm in a ladder event on a weekend. I play at one of the clubs in a ladder event. So they they wanted me to have a duper. So I signed up and lo and behold, somebody had already set up a duper account. So I ended up with two duper accounts, which is a whole nother story. But the long story short is I have a duper rating right now of 4.3 or something. I am not a 4.3. And the only reason it's there is because whatever input had been done unbeknownst to me a year and a half, two years ago at a tournament that was held here in Kingston, I ended up doing okay in that tournament. Um, but I am not that player. And so a buddy and I were trying to register for the provincials and the now, and we can't. I can't play with them. I I'm exactly that person that you're talking about, all because of Duper right now. So yeah. Oh, yeah, it's great. I'm I'm nowhere near, and I never will be, and nor do I care to be. I just, you know, I love the game, I know where I fit, and I understand the numbers well enough to know I'm not that.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

So I think there's going to be, I mean, it's a very interesting world as the growth of pickleball and the maturity of the support, you know, and so as you start to see the growth and the sport mature, they're going to have to address ratings and duper. And you see the Canadian, you know, Pickleball Association, the national level, you know, really upping their game and trying to bring together all of the provinces and the territories. And you'll see this, you know, provincial tournaments and creating um what will hopefully be a national team that would go to an Olympics at some point. So it's kind of in the evolution of the sport, I think you're going to see things mature. You know, you're going to do your, what is it, norming, storming, forming, you know, as an organization grows through all those states to get to a point. Um, and I think pickleball's, you know, moving through that evolution to come to that place where it's going to be, you know, a nationally recognized sport, which is, I think is going to be pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Yeah, I love all that. And yeah, I think we're all in some way hoping for an Olympic you know run at some point for sure, for the game that we all love. Absolutely. Well, final, final couple of thoughts, and then I'd love for you to just kind of give me any closing remarks that you might have. I just I want to make sure you have the final say in all of this. But uh, what concerns you? This is my final question. What concerns you about the game today, if anything, and perhaps there isn't, uh, but it's just some element, some aspect. And whether you're talking paddle technology, Diana, you're talking attitude, you're talking maybe the demographic shift that might be shifting the the essence of the game. We talk about the soft game, uh, we talk about those third shot drives. And what what is it about the game from your perspective? Because you do have a very unique perspective on the game because of your role with the OPA, and not just as a player and a fan of the game, but but specific to that role. So love to know your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Um, paddle technology a hundred percent. Uh the game is becoming quite fast. And some of those paddles, um what are they called? Boom paddles, or there's a name for these paddles. And the ball is coming off those paddles extremely fast and um and potentially very dangerous. And I think that we're seeing that technology maybe being placed in the hands of people who don't have the skill set, how to use that technology safely. And um, especially I see that with maybe some of younger playing with older players, and maybe some of the that technology in the hands of people who don't have the control. And I think that could be very dangerous for sure. And yeah, I agree. And I'm seeing, and we really try to focus that on. I think we try to focus on, I'm seeing a lot of I'm calling body shots, a lot of shots coming in hard on the body here, and then maybe even on the face. So the OPA strongly, we haven't mandated it, but we strongly encourage eyewear, protective eyewear. And we've sold hundreds of different pairs of glasses to our members. I've seen one guy was hit in the eyes three times. So I'm seeing some of that play where I think it's lack of control by some players, and um, with those paddles, the face or the chest and some of the body bagging stuff, I find that that could be very dangerous. So I do think that the technology and the the lack of skill set in the utilization of that technology is definitely something that could be um risky.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Yeah, I concur with everything you've just said. And I think if there's a danger in that, Diana, it's that people who are listening to the podcast, that person that I'm inspiring to get off the couch and try this game for the very first time, we wouldn't want them to be afraid of the game. And I think up till now, that hasn't been an issue. I don't know a lot of people that have said, oh, I was afraid to try because I because I thought it was dangerous. I've heard people say, well, I've never played a racket sport, so I'm not sure I'll be any good, or I've never been an athlete. I've never done any sport, so I'm not sure I would be any good at it. But I've yet to hear a player say to me, uh, in the circle that I travel in, you know, I'm not trying pickleball because I think it's too dangerous. But I think to your point, the paddle speed and the ball speed in the wrong hands. Uh, it's one thing. Matthew Kalmoda is going to put that ball probably within six inches of where he's aiming. Um, most rec players aren't doing that. Getting it over the net's a miracle for many of us. And uh, you know, to put that kind of power into someone's hands uh that could potentially harm someone is uh yeah, it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

So and we we spend some time talking about shot selection and the safety of your shot selection. So if you and I are right across from each other on the non-volley zone, um you were somehow it gets popped up to me and I am across from you, like that number of feet across from you. Should I win the point by smashing the ball right at you that close? Do I need to win the point that way? Or am I a smarter player who can win the ball by putting the ball cross-court where there's space and there's nobody by doing a smart cut cross-court dank? So we're trying to teach people about the shot selection to win the point, which isn't necessarily you and I face to face, eight feet apart or 16 feet apart or whatever, and I nail you. I don't need to win my point. I'm a smarter player, and I looked more skilled as a player if I do a smarter cut or another shot that doesn't hurt my opponent.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Isn't that the greatest feeling, though? And I had two of those today, not many, but two. I played eight games, I had two shots, and I smiled to myself. I thought I caught that person off guard. They were expecting this and I gave them that. And I love that.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

That's smart, and that's you, that's you know, that's that's using your skill set, and that's protecting the safety of your opponents, you know. So it's because we all at the end of the day, the beauty of pickleball is that you, as you talked about it at the very beginning, you're out of your house. If you're by yourself or whatever, you're out of your house, you are in a social setting, you may be outside getting fresh air, or you're in a gym or another facility, and you're interacting with people and you're moving, you know, like it's just to me, it's the movement. You're you're getting some level of fitness and you are having fun, and that's what it's all about. It's fitness, fun, and social. That's what pickleball is all about.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Yeah, I just love it. Well, this has been enlightening. And I knew it, I knew it would be. And this is a conversation, and thank you for being here tonight. And I think full disclosure, we tried this earlier today. We had we had a small technical difficulty. So for you to be here this evening, give me more of your time is so appreciated. And and I said to my wife coming down to the studio, I'm just so hoping we can fix this technical issue. I've been waiting to talk to you on this level for a long time. You've been so generous in supporting the podcast, and I can't say thank you enough for that. And thank you for all you're doing for not only the OPA, Diana, but for the sport in general. And I think the more people out there like you advocating for the right way to play, to understand the game, to appreciate and respect the game. And I think it speaks to, you know, everything about this great sport. And um, I think we all as players, and again, not here to preach, but um, I think we have a small responsibility to advocating for the game and being ambassadors in the right way and to bring new people into the game and introduce them in a way that makes sense. And what I've learned tonight, you know, I've known a bit of the background, but to hear you express it and to explain it is just remarkable. And congratulations on all of that. I think there's a model there that other clubs should be paying attention to. And so I really applaud you and the founders and everyone involved for doing what you're doing. And and on that note, I just ask, is there anything else that we didn't touch on that uh you'd like to briefly touch base? Because I'm going to ask you to come back. You know that. I'm not I'm not gonna let you away with just one. I'm gonna chase you down again later this year and get an update on what you're up to and what the OPA is up to and and and the sport in general. But uh yeah, do we miss anything tonight that you'd like to touch on?

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Uh just if any other organizations interested in anything that the OPA offers, the the the way we set up our leaks, our criteria, our assessment, we are always open for conversations. Everything we have is open book, and we're willing to help any other organization.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

I love that. Pickleball people are the best, aren't we? I mean, we don't need we we shouldn't brag, but we are.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

I mean, if you've I'm gonna bias with you on that one for sure.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

We are just the greatest people in the world. Yeah. And if you're not a pickleball player, please become one. Yes. I I wish we could sponsor someone somehow. But uh yeah, come on, get off the couch, pick up a paddle, give it a try, and uh, and it will change your life. So thank you for being here this evening and thank you for all you're doing for the sport. I love it. And uh it's been a real pleasure getting to know you and to finally sit down and chat with you on the podcast. So thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Take care. Thanks.