SMASHING Success!

What happens when you take an old warehouse… and turn it into one of the most electric pickleball communities in Canada?

In this episode of Kitchen Conversations, I sit down with Jody Allen and Jeff Allen, the visionaries behind Smash Courts in Peterborough — and what they’ve built is far more than a facility.

It’s a community.
It’s a culture.
It’s a place where people don’t just play pickleball… they belong.

From Jody’s decades working in child welfare to Jeff’s background in teaching and coaching, their mission goes deeper than court bookings and memberships. They’ve created a space that tackles loneliness, builds connection, and gives people something many are missing today…

A place to show up — and be seen.

When I visited Smash Courts, I was blown away — not just by the design, the pro shop, or the courts… but by the energy in the room.

You feel it the second you walk in.

This conversation pulls back the curtain on how it all came together — and where it’s going next.

🎯 In this episode, we dive into:

• The leap from stable careers to building Smash Courts
• Turning a dark warehouse into a best-in-class pickleball facility
• The culture behind Smash — and why it feels different
• How pickleball is quietly fighting loneliness and isolation
• The balance between competitive and social play
• Why space, design, and community matter more than you think
• The future vision for Smash Courts

📍 Learn more about Smash Courts:

👉 Smash Courts (Peterborough, Ontario)
https://smashcourts.ca

👉 Follow Smash Courts on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/smashcourts

👉 Connect with Jody & Jeff Allen
https://www.facebook.com/smashcourts

🎥 Watch more episodes:

👉 Kitchen Conversations YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/@KitchenConversationspodcast

🎙️ About the Show:

Kitchen Conversations is more than dinks, drops and drives —
it’s stories from behind the paddle.

🔥 Hashtags:

#SmashCourts #PickleballCanada #PickleballCommunity #KitchenConversations
#JodyAllen #JeffAllen #PeterboroughPickleball #PickleballLife
#PickleballGrowth #PickleballCulture #IndoorPickleball
#PickleballPodcast #SportsEntrepreneur #CommunityMatters
#PickleballAddiction #PickleballFamily #CourtCulture
#FromWarehouseToWow #EntrepreneurStory #CanadianPickleball

And that wraps up this episode of Kitchen Conversations.

If you enjoyed the conversation, be sure to follow the show, leave a review, and share it with someone who loves the game as much as you do.

And if you want the full experience, including the visuals, head over to YouTube and watch the episode at

https://www.youtube.com/@KitchenConversationspodcast

Or search Kitchen Conversations Pickleball Podcast

That’s where these stories really come to life.

You’ll also find links and show notes in the episode description.

Until next time…

more than dinks, drops and drives…

these are stories from behind the paddle.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, and welcome to my podcast. Welcome to Kitchen Conversations and thanks for being here. I appreciate that. I had a chance recently to sit down with Jody and Jeff Allen. Now, what they've done in Peterborough is nothing short of amazing. They've taken an old dusty warehouse and turned it into what is, at least in my opinion, one of the nicest pickleball facilities that I've ever been in. Smash Courts in Peterborough is something to behold. As a pickleball player, as a pickleball fan, when I had a chance to visit a few weeks ago and meet Jody and meet Jeff and tour their facility, I was completely blown away. Not only by the facility itself, by the physical building itself and what they built there, which is unbelievable, but by their passion, their commitment to the game, and their vision for Smash Courts in Peterborough. There was a huge radio event happening the day I was there. It was a lot of fun. A buddy of mine, Terry Grosgin, was playing in it, and it was an absolute hoot. We're going to talk about that and so much more in this episode of Kitchen Conversations. Well, good morning, Jody. Good morning, Jeff, and welcome to my little podcast. And thank you for being here this morning. I appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Thanks for having us. We appreciate it today.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

We came up to see you too. My wife and I came to visit you a couple weeks ago. You had quite an event going on. We're going to talk about that at some point later on in the podcast. But I have to tell you, we're driving out of Peterborough and we're we're on the Google. We're looking, and the kids hated when I called the Google, but we're looking for a realtor. We're thinking we need this to become our home court. So yeah, the concept of moving to Peterborough, we kicked that around a little bit on the way home. And you know, all joking aside, we um we were really taken by uh both of you uh and also just the amazing facility that the two of you put together up there and and the sense of of culture. And it was a terrific day. So thanks for the warm welcome. We both felt very welcome, but we just loved what you built there. So congratulations on all of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Yeah, oh, it's just terrific. Well, listen, I'd like to break today's conversation down, if we can, into three separate courts to stain the theme of Smash. And uh on court one, I'd like both of you to give me a sense of your background, your professional careers, because we did get a chance to talk a little bit about how that may play into some of the programming and some of the goals and missions of Smash. And I was really interested in that. And then on court two, of course, we're gonna talk about the game. You want to talk about whether it found you or you found it. At what level of addiction are you at currently? We should talk about that uh because it's quite a game. And then third, and uh, you know, most importantly, we want to talk about what you've built and the culture within Smash and uh kind of your vision for it, where it is today and where perhaps you see it going in the future. So if you guys are good with that, can we just jump right into court one and whoever would like to start? Yeah, give me a bit of sense of your professional backgrounds uh and uh yeah, whoever would like to take over.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Sure. So um my background has really been child welfare. So I've spent 25 years at children's aid, and prior to that working, you know, with with you through youth justice, etc. So I spent um a lot of years working in children's services where youth youth were coming into care, sort of specializing with older youth that were kind of um exiting out or on their own. So lots of mental health, addiction struggles, housing, um, etc. And so at some point in my career, I ended up, you know, working with the union, was union president, doing lots of labor, and watching the system sort of erode and fall apart, and that became really challenging to watch and be a part of ethically, and I reached a point in life where I just needed to change. I, you know, I'm like, I I just want to try something else. I've been doing this for a long time. I love it, I love the families, but the bureaucracy is killing me, and I just want to try something else. I want to try something else in life. So Jeff and I had a year off and had an opportunity to do that. So I thought, I'd like to start my own little business.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Well, Jody, yeah, it's a moment, I think, and I think most of us have been there. Few of us have reacted to it. And I think that's maybe the difference with with both of you. And I think that's part of your story is you know, a lot of people have that feeling or that concept that where I am right now isn't working for me. It's not serving me any longer. But I think they hang in there and they and I think it's out of fear and uncertainty. And uh, and I'm sure at that moment the decision to sort of walk away from that must have been it couldn't have come lightly for you.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

No, it didn't, because I had uh a lifetime of relationships with youth. Some youth that I had been a part of their lives for like 20 years, you know. I had one where I'd been with them since he was two and he was, you know, 23. Right. So leaving those relationships were really a real challenge, you know, when you know that that they're reliant on you and you matter, because sometimes in the absence of other um helpful supportive, you know, caring adults, um, you sometimes play a profound role in their lives. So so that hurts the heart, right? Like so that was that was the hardest part was and the co-workers and the and the you know the teams and the people are were the hardest to kind of leave. So I'm trying to, you know, continue where I can to um marry the two as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yeah, well, and that was part of the conversation I know Fran I had with you when we were there, and you were so generous with your time, and I thank you again for all of that. But we really came away with a sense that you were trying to do something as a club that went well beyond memberships and court bookings and selling paddles. And so I definitely want to touch on that as we get into court three and we talk about the culture within the club. So, well, that's terrific. Well, thanks for sharing that. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to leave things. I we sold furnaces, I think we mentioned. So we come from the warehouse background. So we we have a full appreciation for what you've done in that building. It's we've seen the the good, the bad, and the ugly of warehouses. But uh yeah, I didn't have a particular relationship with my furnaces. You know, I sold them and they were gone. Okay, be gone. You know, be gone. That's great. Nice to see you leaving. And uh, but yeah, the line of work that you're in, and certainly Jeff, to to an extent as well. You know, I know you're a teacher, Jeff, and we'll tap on you in a second here for some background on that. But those relationships that you get with the kids, especially, and I think uh it's difficult. My youngest is just finishing up his master's at U Ottawa, and uh can't wait to be in a classroom, Jeff, in in September. And and he's looking for the little ones. He loves the primaries, and so he's enthusiastic about yeah, he's pretty keen on getting in there. So so tell me about your teaching background and where that sits today.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Well, it's uh it's ongoing. We've got a number of years left. This is not uh stepping into this in immediate retirement. I've been teaching grade aid uh in high school for the past 20, 25 years, and uh love it. Uh that's also branched into so many coaching opportunities and various leadership roles. So that's been a real joy for me. And we see that because of the easy translation to pickleball today, where the membership is quite a bit younger. It's not just for seniors. So that's uh definitely a part that we're we're working on. We have we've got youth camps and training all the way up through uh the different different age groups, so that's pretty transferable skills that way.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah, 100%. Well, the coaching is so important. I'll tell you, both of my boys are doing what they're doing, Jeff, because of coaches, not necessarily because of teachers, although they were also teachers, clearly, but it was a coaching uh relationship, I guess it develops because I think they're different. I think the the teacher in the classroom is one person, the coach in the gym's another.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

And that'd be different cats for sure. Absolutely. So that's been uh that's one appreciated. I I've I've enjoyed doing that. That's a passion of mine, and uh just bring that passion to the smash courts and every time we can.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Jeff teaches to coach.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Yeah, some days.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

He's there to he's there to coach where he can, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

I love it. Yeah, well, it was very evident when we met the both of you, the passion that you have for your careers and uh and the care. And I appreciate you sharing a bit of that. It's a bit of a personal side of your lives, and but I appreciate you being willing to go into that this morning. So and we'll talk a bit how I think those are kind of dovetailing into some of the thinking that is behind Smash and the culture there. So yeah, we'll get to that once we get over to court three. So court two is pickleball. Now, did it find you? Did the game find you? Did you find it? And I'd love to hear your individual stories on the first time you stepped onto a court. Do you remember the people you played with? Who hooked you onto this crazy game of pickleball?

SPEAKER_03 8:34

So I I uh one of my co-workers and friends, she she started playing. Um, and so she she loved it. And you know, CIS is a is a tough job, right? So it really became an outlet for her and a passion. And she kept saying, You guys have to try it, you guys have to try it. And we had a really difficult time trying to get into learn to play. Like they were always books, so we we finally did and took a session, and we became quickly became friends with the group. There was about 20 of us, and and we played together for years. We still we still play together, like we still have kind of that OG group that um you know where we've all kind of splintered off, but um a lot of them are at Smash. And so that became quickly became uh four, five, six, seven a week hobbies, if you will. But it was something that Jeff and I had he he's a real football guy, and I don't know anything about football. So so we didn't sort of have an an alignment in sport, and we're kind of looking for something active to try together, and and that was what we tried, and it stuck clearly. Uh it was a slippery slope to where we are now with of oh, we'll try this Saturday morning for an hour or two, you know, hours every single day.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

So yeah, I can't explain it. It's I call it the magic moment. It's how I reference that moment. And you know, I volunteered at the local club here, Jody, for quite a bit. My wife was on the board for a while, and so we were you know fairly invested for quite some time, and and that gave us a chance to meet new people that had never played. And it was, I just it's the best part of volunteering. They would come in, we'd explain things to them. Here are kind of the rules, the scoring's kind of wonky, you'll figure it out, don't worry about it. And uh, but watching their face in those first five or six minutes of getting out in that court, it for me that was it. That was the moment I enjoyed most about volunteering. And uh yeah, I haven't figured it out. I don't know if there's some science behind it, if there's dopamine being released when that ball in the paddle connects, but there's something, Jeff. Yeah, for sure. How about you? Where did where did it all start for you?

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Well, it just I mean, just tackle Joey. We we wanted something we could do together, we found an opportunity, and that was that was just the beginning. Uh huge friendship circles have been created because of that. And I don't think we played near as much now as we we did when we began because uh busy providing this to so many other people, and and that's that's almost equally enjoyable.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah, well, it's fascinating. And I think, you know, we talked about the game. I talked to a gentleman in the UK a couple weeks ago, one of my first interviews, and he was uh he runs the Facebook group, Senior Pickleball Tips. And uh he's got a hundred and almost 140,000 people following that group. And it's not just a group with a lot of people, they're engaged, and they're people that are coming off the court and going on to this Facebook group and saying, This happened to me this morning. You know, what should I have done? This person wasn't nice to me, or I had a line call I didn't agree with. And so it's a really engaged group of people. But Patty, uh his name's Patty Hunter Murphy, and Patty made a really interesting point about the game, which I hadn't thought of until we chatted. And he compared it to any other game, including football, perhaps. It's the length of the game that he thinks is part of the magic to its appeal and its addiction. And what he meant by that was, you know, in a social situation, you're going through maybe a paddle rotation, you're playing with different people for two hours, but you're in and out of the game in 11, 12, 15 minutes. And then you're waiting on the sidelines for your paddle to come up again. And while you're doing that, I'm talking, I'm saying, hey Joe, do you know what's your story? And oh, I've got two kids, and one of them drives me crazy, and you know, and so we we instantly have these friendships. And I hadn't thought about the length of the game, the speed at which a game's completed to 11 uh until he mentioned it. So I'm sure you've experienced that. You know, you're standing on the sidelines, and that's where you start building those bonds with really in that moment, complete strangers.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, with the with the paddles in concept, that really forces that I guess forced mixing of those traps strangers that don't have never met each other, uh, and it creates those bonds and small talk. Uh, and then during the games, they are you know, they can be rather quick, uh games to 11. And then you're off again in in socializing. And I think that's really uh the foundation of the game.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

I was gonna say I think you're right, it's that it probably would be a different looking game if you just came and played with a partner. Like then you then everyone would be your competition. So in one moment they're they're your opponent, and the next minute they're your partner, and that's a bit of a mind shift, right? Where if you they're constantly your opponent, then you you would not probably develop those friendships and and build that togetherness in the same way. Because you're flipping, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Like Yeah, and then of course, as you guys know as well as anyone, what happens from those social outings is you know, we are playing together somewhat regularly, let's say in a Tuesday morning, and then you know, I say to you, hey, listen, uh, do you guys want to put a private game together for Wednesday afternoon? Are you available? And so now these little groups start developing, and we kind of find our tribe. We kind of find the people that we are compatible with, maybe on a skill level or just on a personality level. And so the the those social programs, the learn to plays, the drop-ins, they're critically important to the game growing. And I think it's been a real, you know, a huge part of why the game has grown so quickly and to the level that it's at is all of that sort of put in the pot and mixed up together. So yeah, it's really fascinating. Is there anything about the social side of the game that you think is um that that needs to change? Is there anything about it that that you guys have seen as club owners that you're finding is uh, you know, hadn't really thought about this now. Are you seeing perhaps those social get togethers differently than you did as players in any regard?

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Oh, definitely. I mean, navigating the culture of the club and those pieces because the tribe changes as people improve or or digress a little bit sometimes because of an injury or or whatever, right? And so sometimes people personalize that where these people are I'm not sort of getting invited anymore, where people you know have become more competitive and are training more and have advanced a little bit further. And so sometimes and you know, people also say it's sort of the the better you get, the less fun it is to some degree, because it becomes a little bit more serious at the at the higher levels where when they're training that that they're still fun, but but it's not the same, and so then there's not that intermixing between the different levels. So so that makes it tricky then where it becomes somewhat elitist. So sometimes the beginners and are getting the opportunity to play with more advanced players. So we're seeing a little bit of that. It's tricky to navigate where where people are looking for very competitive games, and it's they're not as interested in playing with with sort of all level to some degree, yet they love it. So it's it's interesting to just watch the game that way, kind of kind of evolve into pockets, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I mean, everybody's passions kind of go down a different path. We have those that are very driven for competition and they find their way improving and drilling it into tournaments, which forces that improvement in their play. Whereas there is other people that continually just are content with showing up and playing just for fun, maybe losing track of the score, uh, and that's the pocket of of peers that they they migrate to, and they that's part of the game. That's just part of the culture, that that give and take, that sharing. Yeah, see it.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

And there's room for all of it. That's the beauty of it.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

It is, yeah. It's interesting. I'm glad you brought all of that up because you know, I often talk about my pickleball pain point, and and if there is one, it's it's kind of all that, you know, kind of mixed up together. But I think the game is beautiful because of those shared court experiences and because of the different skill levels that can come together and still have fun. And if you've got a more experienced player playing against a less experienced player, you know, that that more experienced player has a chance now to maybe work on a certain shot, work on the reset. But yet there seems to be a certain culture. We're certainly seeing it here in our in our home club, where some of those players move up the ladder and they just absolutely refuse to play down. And and it breaks my heart because as someone that you know is recently new to the game, I've only played, I guess maybe two, three years, the thrill of being invited into an upper-level game. I'll never forget the first time as a 3-0. I got to play with a 4-0, and I'm like, wow, this is a whole different game. And I think, you know, that's important for more experienced players to remember that moment because at one point they were that 3-0 player or the 2-0 or the 2-5. So if I have a pickleball pain point, it's not a complaint, it's just a bit of a pain point. I really hope that the more experienced players continue to remember the magic, that feeling of inviting someone up. And and I try hard to do it now. I probably settle in maybe on a good day at a 3-5, you know, 3-6. And that's as far as I care to go. But, you know, when I see a beginner, someone that literally doesn't know what end of the paddle to hold on to, I just love inviting them out, even if it's just to warm up. And they love it. They just love it. So I'm glad you brought that up, guys, because yeah, it's a bit of a bit of a sore spot with me in the game. Uh, but yeah, it's interesting. Uh on that note, I would also offer though, and I think Jeff, you touched on this, it's okay not to want to get better. You don't have to drill, you don't have to play in tournaments to love this game. And my wife's probably a great example. I mean, she plays with six ladies each week. I don't even know if they know how to keep score. I'm I'm not sure they care. They're just out to hit the wiffle ball. They spend more time courtside talking about whatever they're talking about than playing the game. It's two hours of socialization. And uh, I've shared this story on on other podcasts, but she came home one day and said, the girls now are going to Iceland. I said, Oh yeah, sure you are. You know, like people talk. Well, they did. I mean, they they literally put a they went to Iceland together, they just met, shared accommodations. I mean, that does not happen without this game. It just doesn't. And so I love all of that. So yeah, well, good on you guys. So, do you get to play much? I mean, you mentioned earlier not as much, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Just to to to your point, you just mentioned many of the players that we started with, they've gone on to they're very good players now, where we all start on that baseline uh that learn to play, and now they're they're into any number of tournaments and drilling, and they they laugh at us sometimes for me.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Oh yeah, and some like and and the opposite as well, where we laugh laugh people too, right? But um we don't play as I certainly don't play as well as much as we did before this venture. Like it you know, it became awe-consuming, and then we've had some injuries that that took us out, but our kids are certainly making up where we left off. So now they're they're playing, and it's been great for them because they get to know everybody in the club, or some was saying, I think we know everybody in town, like we go to the grocery store, and we just we just know everybody now. So it's so it's nice. So so where we're not playing necessarily quite as much, they are so so but my arm's been out of commission, but I you know, we did not do all this to to not play. So when we get a few minutes to be able to do some physio and get things going again, we kind of get back to it. But uh they certainly drag us out uh once in a while to play. So but I just we miss it, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:34

We do, and I just love jumping in at that learn to play level, uh that fresh new energy, and that's probably where I'm best able to contribute right now because I I'm not an elite player, and I I remember those uh those that journey when we first started and how I'm I'm seeing it in their in their growth, in their play. So that's been uh enjoyment for me.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah, it's great, Jeff. You know, and I and listen, pickleball players at you know, at large are not great at taking time off. I mean, we're injured. We all get injured, it happens, and and we're not listening. I mean, okay, you shouldn't play for four weeks. It's like, you know, I hear four days in my head. Okay, I'll take four days off and I'll go back. I'll play with my left hand if I have to, but I don't, you know, I gotta be on that court. I just have to do it. So yeah, well, good on you guys. That's great. All great stories, great points. I appreciate you sharing all of that. Uh well, let's get into court three because court three is really where I want to spend as much time with you as I can this morning. Uh, let's talk about Smash Courts because again, I've said it just kind of briefly at the beginning, but we were you just took our breath away. I mean, you really did. Uh, Fran and I walked through those doors that Saturday, and I mean, it was a great day to come. There was a lot happening. There was a radio event going on, which I don't think we could have picked a better day. But nonetheless, my you know, I would expect that's just the feeling every day. It's just a great culture you've built there. The colors, the layout, the pro shop, the desk right there. I mean, you know, it's just so well done. I I would offer that I think you've missed your calling. I think you should give up on running. Pickleball clubs and you should design them. I think there's a design element here for both of you, and I really I say that very sincerely. I've been in a few clubs, and uh yours just it there's I can't think of anything you could have done better. And I'm not just saying that because you're here in the podcast this morning. My wife and I really did come away there uh thoroughly impressed with just everything you've done there. So congratulations on all of that. It's just beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Well, thank you, Mike. That's that means a lot. Uh it's taken a lot as well, and and we're not finished. We've uh we're always improving daily, it feels like. But uh it's the vision that we imagine from day one. So it's it's coming together.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Well, I mentioned when we met Jeff that our business was heating cooling. We sold furnaces and air conditioning out of warehouses. We had four locations across Ontario, so we were we're well you know versed with warehouses, and we know what they look like when you start renting them. We especially if they've been vacant for a bit of time. And I can only imagine half the light bulbs burned out and infrastructure and mechanical and all kinds of stuff hanging from the ceiling, and maybe somebody even living in the back corner. Who knows? You know, so yeah, you just never know. And uh to see that, and uh, I would love to see some before and after photos. Uh, because yeah, I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

In fact, like when I first went in, there was no lights, so it was it was dark, so you know, we would have the bay door open and you're and you're trying to get a sense of the space while it's pitch black dark. And of course, we have no lights, like no windows, no, no anything. And uh so we knew, and our real estate agent had said, like, you know, it was certainly one of the cleanest, best cap warehouses they've seen, despite all of its warehouses. Um, and so that was, you know, but it you know, there certainly was that immediate sense of this could really work. We had looked at a number of places, we'd been in negotiations with other spots, but nothing was we knew what we wanted and what the community needed. And so that was great to finally find that. People beyond us had been looking for a long time to try to find a location that could work and you know, had the ceilings, had the column space, had because the zoning, the the all of it, right? So that just uh finally felt right that first time I stepped in there to be like, okay, yeah, we can two seconds that you know, I'm measuring and I'm like, you know, yep, I'm already I'm already designing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Well, it's interesting. I think in residential real estate, they talk about it's got, you know, you'll hear often, well, it's got good bones, right? So don't worry about the paint, don't worry about the old windows. There's good bones here. And I think if you find good bones, which I think is what you're saying, Jody, then you know it can work. And uh, but these warehouses, for those that have never entered a vacant warehouse, you know, you should. It's an experience.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

And I think it can be overwhelming for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, for sure, Jeff. I think one of the unfortunate parts is the people coming into Smash today that, you know, haven't uh certainly can't have an appreciation for that. And maybe that's something you might consider down the road as a little bit of a storyboard that kind of shows this is what it was and this is what it is, because you know, it would be nice if members coming in and players coming in could get a sense of the work that and the money, and I'm gonna say money because I know how much it takes to do something like that or at least have a sense of it. Uh yeah, it's not a cheap endeavor. So good on you guys. It's a big risk, and uh, but I think it's it's paying off in spades 100%. So now tell me the history of Smash itself. It was in a previous location prior to where you are today, is that correct?

SPEAKER_03 25:41

Yeah, so we were actually just a block away. Okay. We we and from the early onset, the the vision was always something big, whether it was us or somebody else, right? And so what we found at the time, again, we had looked at all sorts of places sort of beyond Peterborough, even too, right? Because it wasn't just our community that we know was looking for something. So when we found our previous location, we had um it was zoned properly and it had the space, but just for the for one court and then the front space we we had as a large store, so pro shop because people were and ourselves included, had to travel, you know, to other regions or or order online, which wasn't ideal when you're talking about paddles and shoes and the right fit and all the rest of it. So so then yeah, during that time we just we developed it in in that sort of a micro level and while continuing to look for a space that yeah. And we we passed on a lot of spaces that we didn't think were were gonna be adequate or or fit fit the need and the vision.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

So yeah, well it's great. How important were was the square footage in a sense of you know how many courts did you think minimum we need? Did you say we need a minimum of eight? We'd like to go up as far as you know, 12, 13. What was what was the thinking behind this, you know, sort of the layout and because that must have been a bit of a moving target, or were you always committed to having the number of courts that you've got there today?

SPEAKER_03 27:14

No, I think minimally we we wanted to at least hit hit eight and and fit as many as as we could with the space without compromising the quality and the size of the court. Like even currently we could have fit a lot more quartz in. You know, I had little, they're probably still under the couch somewhere, little mini courts, everything to scale, where I've gone over every inch of that the warehouse to to fit in and optimize the spacing so that we weren't sacrificing quality for just quantity, you know, so where we were we had to have narrower baselines or s or sidelines. People already had that, you know, we're playing all over the place in churches and schools and whatever, and you know, where you go to serve and your bum touches the wall. Like, you know, you don't you don't have that kind of space. So so we wanted to make sure that we did a quality job and that that was that was going to be standout.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah, well, you certainly did. And I think the the sheer I think maybe I I was trying to figure out coming into the call today, coming into the podcast, you know, what if you were to ask me what about it really struck you, Mike, and I I I mean it was everything, but it just seemed that it was such a welcoming space around the courts. I mean, we were there to watch Terry in the radio event, we'll talk about that in a moment, but there was just ample space in which to socialize. And I think for me, you know, I will often say I like the game, but I love the people. And you've created this space, the the lounge, which Jeff you'd mentioned, is is still undergoing some changes and it will grow and change, which is great. But you've created just such an enormous amount of free space that yes, could have been probably turned into another court or two. And and I applaud you for not doing that. I think you know, that's hard not to do, maybe, because court is revenue and revenue keeps the lights on. But you know, to sort of throttle that back a little bit, even though you had the space, I really applaud you for that because for Francis and I walking in there, just you know, it felt like we were in a living room, and maybe that's not the look you were going for. We just felt comfortable. And being able to be there and watch the event on the premier court on court one and see Terry out there in his pink, which some things you cannot unsee. You cannot unsee Terry, you know, it's like stop. You stop, you know, you Susan should dress you really more often, but anyway, um, yeah, so congratulations on that. I think that really took some some you know, some yeah, a little bit of risk, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

I think that's that's that was always important for us to have that space. And that's that's been a complaint from players that play at other facilities where it is so confined, uh, which leads to the spaces not being necessarily positively social because people are just trying to get by and find a space to rest between their games. So I think it it almost feels like the center court of a of a mall where there's that comfort to socialize and relax and talk uh and then get off your court, whichever wherever that may be. Uh lots of room. We're pretty proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, well, I think you've hit both ends of that. We've talked about you know skill level or you know, experience in the game. So you've got, let's take the most serious players you have, let's take the top 12 most serious players. You've given them an environment in which to function at the level they need to function at. So they've got baseline room, they've got lots of room for ATPs, you've done it all. And yet for the social player, my wife and her girls from Iceland, they're gonna love just the social side. So to be able to strike that balance of both, I think some clubs have hit it out of the park maybe on one end of that spectrum, but perhaps fallen a bit short in the other. And the other thing I'd add and ask for your insight in is paddle technology and how that might have played into your thinking about court size and baseline depth. And I'm reading and seeing some concerns about courts that have been built, you know, let's say in the last five, six, seven, eight years, indoor courts, where they didn't allocate enough baseline space for the speed of the game. So the game is speeding up, you know, it's going quicker, faster. A lot of what you're selling to there are, I mean, they're paddles, but they're also rocket launchers. I mean, these things are I listen, I'm a 59-year-old guy and I'm in okay shape, and I hit a pretty hard ball. And I do that primarily because of the paddle in my hand. You know, I uh it's it's interesting, and and I am seeing a bit of chatter about concerns. And I wouldn't go as far as saying there are clubs that have been built in the past that might become quote unquote obsolete, but they're going to become less favorable because simply because of court restrictions. And I think what you guys have done there, uh, without pulling it a measuring tape, I just think it's phenomenal. So I don't was any of that thought process going into the layout of the courts?

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Definitely. Yeah, like I was trying to make sure that we had, you know, and people have their own unique, I guess, like what's the word I'm looking for? You know, they they serve. Some, you know, some stand in serves, some some are sort of kind of taking steps and and launching into a serve. So and like you said, the paddle technology, the advancements and the changes and the politics over the last two years is is really crazy. And that that's a beast in its own to keep up with, right? What's coming out now and what's hot today, and then problems with it tomorrow, or the next thing comes out, and it's even even better and even better. But but you're right, that ability to chase the ball down if you don't have room to get to it, especially, especially as players get younger and faster and have the athleticism to really chase those fastballs down. You you need some of the space to do that. So where possible, we tried, you know, to develop the courts so that they were, you know, 64 long instead of 60, so that you have that extra room if you want to do a running serve, or you know, you you can run 11 feet back to pick the ball up off of bounds, right? So but when it's tight, it it does limit the game to some degree, and certainly and it also alters like I found when I was playing in uh schools, etc., where you had shorter baselines. When we built Smash originally and had a full-size regulation court, I'm trying, I'm like, why are all my drops short? And it it was because I was used to playing on these short and modified courts. It it impacted your your skill because you know which we didn't quite notice until we got onto like our own court to say, oh great, now now we're actually like we've got to rework some of these things because we've been playing on a short court all winter, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

And I tell you, other people, I mean, we have we have some outstanding nationally ranked coaches on staff, and as as players themselves playing at that next level, they do appreciate these larger spaces because they're actually able to train and and that mirrors some of the the space that they need in higher end tournament play. Uh they're not gonna be they're not gonna be playing in the gymnasium, they're not gonna be backed up to the wall, and their their drives are at such pace that they need that depth off the baseline to to gather and and play the ball back effectively. So I think if if if nothing else, the coaches themselves as elite players at Smash, they love that.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Yeah, for sure, Jeff. Yeah. Well, you know, you've got to have the right home field. You know, you need to have it. If if that is your primary training facility, then the expectation is uh, you know, perhaps rightfully so, that it's gonna be best in class. And that's what you've done. You've built just a best in class facility, and it's nice to see the sentiments coming and people appall, you know, acknowledging that and and recognizing, which is great. So that's all great stuff. Thank you. Well, walk me through the overall value proposition of Smash Courts. Like it's a 24-hour facility, which is again, I think just for me amazing. Um, we we often get trapped into thinking everyone in the world works nine to five, and they don't. I mean, first responders and hospital people, and so there's a lot of people, I'm sure. How how has that developed? And what you know, if if I was to come in as a potential member and say, why should I join your club? Give me a sense of what you think the value proposition is from top to bottom.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Well, well, first of all, you don't have to be a member at our club. Uh, you can be that's that's one of the benefits to it. So here is a facility that's open 24-7. So we've reached out and and uh various occupations that worked at shift work. They've been able to access uh our club late at night, early in the morning, beyond far before and after staff have gone. And I think that's that's been great because that's that's where Smash fits into their routine and their kind of daily and weekly plan. So it's been great. The 24-7, I think that's pretty unique, uh, especially for especially for a space that size.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Yeah, I think there's only a few, uh like a couple clubs in Canada that are 24 hours. What we what we do get and see a lot in the late hours is international players. So so that's been an introduction to to a whole new community that's been really amazing. So, you know, we've we've had they're a community into themselves. So sometimes they're they're working leaderships and or they're just on a different clock, right? And so, so it's been nice for them to have opportunity and then to start to where they what we saw develop too, which was amazing, is them coming to play as their own little group, and now they're starting to come out and play at different times or with other people. So that then has just led to a broadening of friendships and interactions that otherwise may never have happened. So that's been really amazing to watch and see that develop as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Well, and I also I want to get into the Pro Shop for a moment too with you before I lose track of that thought, because that that part for me was, you know, I didn't expect that. I mean, you know, a lot of clubs have a selection of paddles and shoes, and but you've got Lululemon clothing in there, you've got every paddle imaginable, you've got shoes, you've got uh even the flooring, you know, the way you've done the flooring inside of there. And I was, you know, I asked uh and uh was thankful to get permission to take some video and some photos when I was there, which we'll, you know, uh embed into the video once it's done. But uh yeah, just the Pro Shop, how important is that to the culture of the of the organization?

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Yeah, I mean, it's a big piece, especially our demo program has been really robust. And people having the opportunity to try different paddles to find the right fit. And it's interesting because people will ask us, like, oh, which is the best paddle? And and it's hard to say because what is the best paddle for you might not be the best paddle for somebody else. And you know, there's different you don't need a $400 paddle because that's some do. And but but uh that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the best paddle for you. So I think having that selection and availability and opportunity for people to try, and and we offer credit back, so there's you're not out anything, and so people the record's like $160 in demo credit, right? Where people just were able to to try everything and really make sure and yeah, and use it as a bit of a savings program too, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:12

So sure, sure. If there's an angle, we'll find it. We're pickleball people, we're very creative. Yeah, we'll find a way around it. So well, that's great. Yeah, I loved it. I thought it was just so well done, and uh, you know, I was worried we're gonna end up uh busting the bank in there. Could have we could have spent all afternoon in there shopping. It was a lot of fun. You don't want to put a pickleball person inside a place like that too often, so yeah, good on you.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Oh, you're gonna come away or something.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Yeah, our floor, our floor is actually our old court. Oh so it's a bit nostalgic too, right? So it's actually was the court from our previous location, and uh so we we of course took it out and it it was kind of like a pickle roll or whatever, right? Sure. And and so we use that as the floor of the store.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

So well, I'm glad I noticed it. I'm glad I mentioned it because it did catch my eye because it doesn't necessarily fit in with the rest of it, but it looks perfect. But now I know why. Like it's it came from oh, what a great story. What a great story.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Well, the white lines are actually like the court lines.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

I'll take a really close look quite comfortable under the feet walking around that old days.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Absolutely. I love it. Yeah. Well, listen, let's go back to court wine for a sec, talk about your background, your professional careers, and tell me how some of that experience uh is now blending into some of the programming and some of the goals and missions that you have, you know, as an organization, and uh give me a bit of insight into that.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Well, I as a coach, teacher, mentor, leader, uh, we we see all different ability groups starting to pick a ball. So from the youth all the way up to to some adults. But it's interesting that you know, youth are a little more they're they're keen to start something. They don't have as many uh or certainly as much anxiety about trying something new or learning. Where with adults, we often hear their their past history as an athlete, but then it's followed up by some recognition of uh having an in injury or a long-standing ailment that that may affect their performance, and they're quite anxious. So it's interesting that we're able to, and and our coaches do a great job at this as well, is really support, like positive encouragement, uh supporting their their ability to try try something new. And we see that with adults, just like youth, they they appreciate that. They they feel uh welcomed. There's not you're you can see the them relax, not the same sense of uh anxiety and performance anxiety. And they're they in a very short order are able to kind of just relax and have fun, and they're laughing, uh, and that supports the community development with within uh their small group, and sometimes even those bonds like ours form those that original group that that lasts weeks and months and and years ahead. So it's great to see that for sure. So I see that on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Yeah, and I think for me, my previous career seeing the impact that loneliness, isolation uh has on poverty, like on mental health, and that those root causes that lead into addiction and violence and homelessness and all of those. And that's where the sport is so much more than than than just a ball and a paddle that people don't realize. And so when I hear and see those criticisms, and there and there's been a lot in Peterborough, um, there's a lot of political conflict in Peterborough because of locations of some of the outdoor courts and things, but I think where what people don't realize that are and they quickly learn when they give it a chance, is is that it's it is it's it's so much more than it's deceivingly fun for starters. It doesn't look like it should be as much fun as it is, but but it is, but it also then it's it's a it's very you're quick to latch onto it and and just want more in the kind of like you said, it endorphin, addictive way where where then you're building those relationships and it's it's improving your mental health and your physical health outside of the injuries, but that's partial to sport. So so I think it has the ability to to just build community, which is is missing. And to make connections and you know, where I think of the days where they talked about, you know, one person's burn built down and now everybody comes to build the barn. Like those those days feel burned in between sometimes in a in a world where everyone's connected through electronics and and not that kind of face-to-face relationship. So people does some of that. And I think in child welfare, that's that's a piece that's really missing. And so I I really loved that, that it became more of a prevention rather than a reaction to when people are are into addiction or really poor mental health, like, you know, kind of getting people in before they get that far is well.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

That's great, Jody. And I think, yeah, a sense of a sense of community and a sense of belonging to something and and people being happy to see you. You know, I think arriving at the pickleball court with your friends and everybody's excited to see you. And I think you and I did have a chat when we were there, and I was very candid that we have an alcoholic in our family who's struggling with the disease. And I call it a disease because it is a disease. And, you know, we've had him through rehab, it's not working. And we believe in our hearts, uh, and we're hoping that one day he'll just step out of that. And if he continues to linger in the community that he's in now, it's not going to improve. But if you were to step onto a pickleball court, make those connections and make those friendships. And even yesterday I had a fascinating conversation with a gentleman named Roger Bel Air. You know, it's a uh he started a not-for-profit where he's taking pickleball into prisons in the U.S. He's in 81 facilities now. Uh San Quentin, you know, Rikers Island. I mean, he's been in the toughest of the toughest environments. And um, you know, it's a fascinating story. And the change that he's seeing in in these individuals that, you know, have a choice to make when they when they finally are released and how pickleball is becoming an important part of their life. So we chatted for an hour yesterday. It was just fascinating. And yeah, I was really taken by it. But when we did chat, I think were you thinking about involving some kind of programming through Smash to help some of those folks that might need to find new friends, new communities? Is that something that's oh absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

We've actually had um a treatment center that in our old facility were bringing um some of the residents in that were mid-treatment. And I've also talked to the city, I know the city's starting to do a number of things around, you know, addiction treatment. And I'm hoping that we can be part of a re-entry plan because the thing is with addiction, like you can go into treatment, but as you said, when you come out, there's a lot of replacement that has to happen. You need to you need to fill that time, you need to sometimes make an entire, you need to shift friends completely and get out of those environments. And there's often not a lot of things that you can do that can occupy a lot of time that that is fun, that is community, that changes in relationships. Like, you know, a lot of friends that we used to see regularly when we got into pickleball, we're like, oh, sorry, we can't we have pickleball every day. Um, you know, and and so that kind of naturally happens, and so that's a huge myth. So I would love to, you know, eventually get into further. And again, for working with Canadian Mental Health Association, we've reached out to the new Canadian Center, uh, and and again, hoping that to bring some some people in to introduce it so that they have opportunity to to potentially like reap some of the benefits and rewards that it has to offer in a pro in a preventative way because it they're really yeah, yeah. And the I think the prison taking that on is just incredible. Would love to do that.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yeah, it was an inspiring story, and and the work that they're doing is you know, it's second to none. And but you know, if we love we love this game, and we love it for all the reasons that we've talked about this morning, and I'm very careful. I'm gonna get you out of here in a couple minutes. I've taken up too much time, but um, there's so much more I'd love to talk to you about. But you know, uh the game is so beautiful in so many ways, but that that side of it is just I think maybe arguably the most powerful is the community and how that community serves me and you and and someone else, it can be uniquely different, but it it it it really is grounded in community, and we we find some magic in there. We just find a you know a reason to want to keep going back and playing more and more. So yeah, well, good on you guys. Well, listen, let's talk a bit about that Saturday that we were there, uh, because it was a fun day, and I love the story. And of course, I know Terry, and you know Terry, and probably a lot of people that will hear this will know Terry. He's an unforgettable part of this, whatever this is. And uh he and I have done a couple tournaments. Uh you know, I'm proud to tell you I've hugged him on a podium and uh proud of that moment. Uh yeah, we've done okay together. He he's just one of the greatest guys I've ever played with. He makes it easy, he doesn't take it too seriously, but he's competitive. And so he checks off all of my boxes. On a personal level, I can't find a nicer guy than Terry. And uh we just think the world of him. So excuse me, when I find out that he's uh you know taken the radio station in town to task, it didn't surprise me. I'm like, yep, that would be fun at all. That would be Terry. So can you give me your version of that story, that event, how it happened, and uh how did you feel about it the day it was uh it was happening at your place?

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Yeah, so as I said, you know, there's been a lot of um political undercurrents in our our community. And so, and Terry's just awesome, like you said, just fun guys, like competitive, but just salt of the earth. And so he is all over it if somebody has anything that's even remotely um critical. And I don't I don't even know that that's what they were doing, but whatever the comment about pickleball was, Terry was all over it saying, you know, like don't don't be trash talking pickleball. Like it's so fun. Don't knock it so you try it. And uh, you know, it was so good to plug us to say it kind of smash his opening, and uh, you know, if you're up for it, we'll bring in and challenge you to a game. So so that kind of evolved into this um, you know, banter between Terry and Jeff and Miles, the the radio DJs, and so they set up a date, and so I said to Jared, you know, let's let's uh call Jeff and Miles and get them some lessons like on the slide. Just to try to give them a five before this this uh showdown with Terry and uh so so yeah, they just uh ran with it and were really good sports. They came in a few times and met with Jared and did some coaching, and they did so well. I mean, Keely's like won five medals at Nationals last year, like you know, she's she's a weapon of a player, and Terry's extremely good too. So and they they did really well and uh they really showcased pickleball. And the first time they came in, they kind of were wow and just loved it. And and we're you know, we talked about that on air saying we loved it. We went in there, we had so much fun, we we want a membership, we you know, all of it. And uh so hopefully they keep playing. But uh, but they were you know they were feeling it after uh a few hours with Terry and Keely. And it was great. Like there was like you guys came down, there was a number of other I think apparently uh Deanna Christie had come down. I I uh well I'd only met her the one she had her hood on, and so you know, where you kind of see someone, you're like, Why can't I place her? But yeah, there was just a lot of new faces that day and uh a lot of cheering, and they stubbed in um, you know, one of the eight-year-old so fun.

SPEAKER_00 51:54

Wasn't a face there that wasn't smiling and laughing and getting it and and understanding the fun of it. You know, it was all you know, it was all done and fun, and it was just a terrific opportunity for some people maybe to get a sense of what pickleball could be in their lives, you know. And I'm sure that that event will will just grow the game in your area and certainly grow your club and your membership and and the interest in the game. So it's fun, it's good. We need to do more of that, you know. We need to get away from someone because we're facing the same thing. I'm in Kingston, as you know, and we've got the same stuff. The snow is melting, surely, surely it's gonna leave eventually. But the open uh uh, you know, outdoor play is gonna start up again and the neighborhoods are gonna start complaining, and city council's gonna weigh in on it. And you know, we're just gonna go through the same routine we go through every spring where people are complaining. And listen, I get it. As a fan and a player, if you ask me, do you want an outdoor pickleball court in your backyard? Probably not. You know, probably not. I don't want to deal with that from 6 a.m. till 11 p.m. and the pop, pop, pop of the game as much as I love it. So I understand some of it, but I think we also have to, as we've talked about this morning, and I'm thankful that we were able to get to that this morning in the time that we've had, talk about the important role that pickleball can play. It's just, it's not just a game. It really isn't. And, you know, the loneliness out there and and uh to the conversation we've had about addiction and and struggles, I think it uh it can certainly serve an important purpose in all of that. So yeah, so events like that, I think, are ideal. And I think we should see more clubs trying to engage with local media to try to get that message out that hey, this is uh not just for old people in Florida anymore. It's really evolving and growing. So yeah. Well, listen, you guys have been absolutely amazing this morning. Your time is uh I appreciate it. And I could talk to you all day. I could talk to you about all this all day, but uh you've got a club to run.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Well, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Let's get that would be my favorite, Jeff. I'd like to just stay in touch with the two of you. I I am heading up that way. I've got to wrap up my curling season and then I'll have a bit of free time. And uh I've uh told Terry I want to come up and I want to get involved and horn in on one of his games. And uh it's been too long since he and I've been on a court, and I absolutely want to get my feet on your court. So I will be up to play at some point and have dinner uh with the gang. And uh yeah, it I'm looking forward to that. I really am. We'll do an overnight because it'll be uh it'll be a good night for sure. But uh I wish you all the success in what you're doing, and I applaud you again. I know I've I've said this a number of times, but it's so impressive what you built, and not just the physical building, but the culture and the people, and it's just such a welcoming environment. I think you you know, you're the kind of people that this sport needs more of. So I thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 54:18

Thank you. Yeah, we look forward to having you.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Can't wait. Yeah, I'm on my way. Yeah, I'm not coming at two in the morning, but I'll be there at some point.

SPEAKER_02 54:25

So very well.

SPEAKER_03 54:27

You can.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

Yeah, I love it. Well, listen, this has been great. I appreciate your time. Thanks for doing the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

No, thanks for having us. Amazing.