No Plan B | Escaping the Chains x Nathan Harmon

What if the worst thing you’ve ever done didn’t disqualify you—but became the very thing God used to set others free?

In this episode, Nathan Harmon shares how a fatal drunk driving accident, radical forgiveness from the victim’s family, and a prison cell became the turning point for a life now spent reaching 2 million+ students in over 1,600 schools. We talk about brokenness, mental health, self-harm, youth culture, testimony as a weapon, and what it really means to live with no Plan B and “hours with God, minutes with men.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I don't know what's happening, but the only thing this family is demanding is that they take the handcuffs off you, have no police around you, and just love on you because they do not want you to have to go to prison. Like if God's called you to something, you're not gonna know what he's called you to until you take that first step off the boat, until you burn the ship, until you have a place where there's no plan B. Don't think that you're the exception. I think sometimes we think God can do it for them. God, I've seen him do it over there. Man, I'm the exception. I'm the one that God can't do it before. You're not the exception. You absolutely are the one. The father would love nothing more to say. Come home.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Hey, beautiful people. Welcome to Escaping the Chains Podcast. I am your host, John Humphreys. Wait till you see what we have in store for you today. This one is a long time coming, but we have finally connected with our brother Nathan Harmon. And Nathan, how are you doing today? Let's start there.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

I'm doing well, man. It's it's good to be here with you finally, John. I know this has been a couple years in the process of our our calendars lining up, and um, I'm doing good. I was I was here today doing some stuff with some some schools, and it's just been cool to be here in the space with you, bro.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

You've been staying in the schools, like you've you you helped us out a lot when we were first getting started, just like shadowing you and stuff. So me and you, we met years and years and years ago at Celebrate Recovery. I don't even know how long ago that was, but it had to be 2012, 2013, man. 2012. So like the year that I got saved and sober, I think that that year is the same year I met you in those circles that celebrate recovery. You had the you had the dreads and stuff, but you always like had you always had a vision about you, like you were always going somewhere, you know what I mean? Um, and I've always thought that was that was something really motivating for some of the rest of us. But let's get into how did it so you've you've spoken at a lot of schools and you um share the gospel a lot of places, you've even been to the Middle East, like you know, if we were to name off all the places, that would be the whole podcast, and then we'd be checking out. But like, how did all of that come about?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Whew. Um, first off, God is gracious. Mm-hmm. And in the moment of me trying to hear his voice before all of that, right? Before the doors opened and and the opportunities began, it it really was kind of birthed out of brokenness. It was really birthed out of um really at the end of the day trying to get to the place where you're at the end of yourself and really learn what it is to be surrendered and submitted to the will of God. And you know, I always connect those that have been forgiven much, forgive much, and and you when you've been touched by the love of God and the grace of God, you know, I was just deeply touched by that in my journey and and just some of the mistakes that I had made, and and and God saw fit to be really compassionate to me. Um and He's that to everybody. But for me, it really was birthed out of me being in that prison cell. It was birthed out of me not being able to run um to to YouTube or to pastors at the time. It was me and just while I'm incarcerated, just wanting to live a life that would glorify God. And I didn't know what that looked like, but that's kind of that's really like ground, ground zero.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Yeah, was that was that moment. And I want to, we won't get into it yet, but I want to, we will discuss how you ended up there, but um, we can do that in a minute.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

But but I would say it was in that time of really just wrestling, like God, what's your will for my life? And and really meaning, you know, what's your will for my life? I just I've always loved um words. I think you know, there's life and death in the tongue, and our words can build and our words can tear down, and um I I just remember I got a chance one time when I was incarcerated to speak and to preach at a at a at a little Sabbath a Saturday chapel service, and um I was terrified. I had never really spoken publicly before. And I remember right before I began, there was like this spirit in my heart, like this the Holy Spirit had pressed upon me. Like when you're speaking, like you are stepping into a place where you can take people um on a journey, you can meet them where they are, and you also can lead them because you know where you're trying to go, which is to get people to find hope and purpose, and there's the ability to overcome. And so um I just knew when I first did it that first time that there was there was a a gift and an anointing in that space. Um, and then I fell in love with the reality that how words can speak life and and we need to use our words wisely. And so fast forward um when we met and we began to like I came home and I was trying to um make a difference and make an impact. Um I knew that younger generation, that younger me was we're still pliable there. We're still we're not set kind of in stone, we're still figuring out who we are. I call it now your default settings. Like when you're young, you're still in that place where you haven't fully ran everything through your filter when it comes to conflict and it comes to emotion and trauma, and how do you deal with like just real life stuff? And at that high school, middle school age, you're so pliable. And so, like the Apple phone, the default settings, there's no customization on it, yeah. And so I feel like that generation is still pliable, and I just wanted to begin to hopefully speak life to that generation, and uh that just kind of slowly materialized, bro. Um I didn't know what I was gonna be doing, I just knew I wanted to make an impact in whatever space, if it's on a on a platform where I'm just shouting Jesus, if it's me literally pulling over to the side of the road and and helping somebody that's homeless. Um I really take the words that Jesus said to heart when he said, Did you clothe them, did you feed them, did you visit them? And they're like, Well, we never did that to you ever. And he's like, What you did unto them, you did it to me. And I think to be honest, a lot of those little details, those little foundational things, um, really matter for gotta check your heart and and to really know like what your why is. And so for me, I was just any time wanting to try to help, to listen, to add value, and and doors began to open, and I got invited into a few schools.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Um I remember because we've been friends on Facebook for a long time, it was like just out of nowhere, you were like, Hey, I'm about you did a video, you're like, I'm about to head out to the school, say a prayer, you know, and it was like, and after that, it was just it was wild. Not not that it these things don't happen overnight, and I think a lot of times people are like they see it and they see like an end result of so much prayer, sweat, um uh financial sacrifice, like all of these things they don't see, but like watching that journey. Um, how many students at this at this time do you think that you've spoken to?

SPEAKER_01 7:48

I've stood in front of almost probably two million students in the last um 12 years. Yeah, it's um we're we're right up on the edge of 1,600 public schools across the nation. Um and I remember school number one, 0001, was Madison Grant, Indiana. Uh uh they let me come in and and share, and it just sort of snowballed from there. Um and it's been a it's been a journey. I I think I knew it was one of my spaces that was kind of in my flow state of what God had for me. Um and there's a lot of areas that, right? But where's that place that you know the hand of the Lord is on, and being content in that space, and and knowing that man, there's a grace in that space, and and do it to the best of your ability to the excellency of Christ in that space. And so I remember I did a school, Madison Grant, and then we got a few opportunities to go to a few other places, and I I was sharing and I was talking about self-injury and self-harm, and trying to get young people to pause and to really process how they're coping with their mental health and like what they're actually doing when you're in that space. And it was at the end of it, my wife was with me, and underneath the bleachers, young girls and some young men were actually throwing and getting rid of of razor blades and things that they're harming themselves. And I mean when you think like an altar call and they bring like they bring stuff to the altar, right? Like that was happening in their seats, and it wasn't me sharing the gospel, I was in my lane of just talking real life and and mental health and substance abuse and the power of choices, but God was just permeating through that. And uh I knew when that that that school happened, and you start getting students reaching out and parents reaching out saying, I was going to commit suicide, I was ready to go in my life, like I had the letter written. Um it was like okay, here we are, and so now how do we just be consistent and persistent um and and try to um do it do it well?

SPEAKER_00 10:07

And that's something so like Natalie, we both know Natalie, with um with the feedback that you've gotten about kids saying, you know, I was literally in this headspace ready to end it all, like you that has happened so many times at places when you've spoken, and it's really like it's in it's incredible because we do schools on a s you know on a much smaller level as far as we like we haven't reached, you know, two million, but like you'll get a message and it's like um it's I I feel like speaking in front of kids can be a little bit more the youth is more challenging. But like when you talk to them after and their questions, you know, like when one of them's like, hey, I quit, you know, I stopped doing this two weeks ago, but what do I do every day now? You know, I wake up, like, what do I do? Those simple things that we bypass when we're dealing with adults sometimes is like, and what they've been through with the pandemic, and I know you're big on talking about that, but like they were alienated, and then they have social media, like the challenges, fentanyl, all of these challenges, and so you can't we can't really talk to our kids like I understand, you know what I mean? Like I can't talk to my daughters and understand what you're going through, but like meeting in that space of like let's have a conversation and what you're saying matters. Um, and I you know, I can't imagine on that level having talked to that many, how many conversations after because you know, like they, you know, they'll linger around, and then there's all there's a couple of students that'll wait and wait and wait, and then they have like these heavy questions, or that so many of them have known people to overdose or have a parent that's gone, they don't know where they're at, or they were where their parents at, or they're locked up, and it's just oh gosh, man. It's it like it's heartbreaking. But then every once in a while, like for me, it would be every once in a while you get a message and be like, I quit, you know, vaping today because I believe I have a purpose, and it's like so such a beautiful thing, and it's like I don't have any business even speaking to students, you know what I mean? But here I am, and uh gosh, it like it's it's just such an important area, it's such an important space, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I think I think no matter who you are, if you're listening to this, I'm a big believer that your story is somebody else's miracle. Your story, and and yeah, you overcome the yinny by the blood of the lamb, the words of your testimony, and not loving your life to the point of death. And I do think a lot of us we need to have a death to ourselves and to our ego and to our vision and to what we think, and sometimes just saying, God, send me, I'll go, whatever it looks like. Um, and yeah, the blood of the lamb is so important, having grace and and faith and belief in him alone and his work that he's done to bring us back into relationship, sons and daughters. But really, the word of your testimony for so long, and and it it's valid, there's there's multi-sides to that, right? It's a double-edged sword. Like your testimony is something that the enemy may whisper lies to you about you're not good enough or you're never gonna be good enough, or you're this failure, or you're that. He can't touch what God's brought you from. And so your testimony is a great reminder of God's faithfulness and his grace. But the reality is your testimony is a weapon, it's a weapon for the kingdom of God. And your testimony isn't meant to be weaponized from other people to leverage it against you. Your testimony is a weapon that you use to continue to assassinate the enemies of God. Every principality, every lie, every addiction, and that doesn't even mean it has to come out pure blank poll only scripture. And I'm a big believer of scripture and and and glorifying and pointing all things back to the one who made me. But sometimes, like you said, these students that are out there in the public schools, uh they're they're living life where they don't know where they're maybe resting their neck at that night. They have a parent that's gone, they have a parent that's committed suicide that or has overdosed. Like young people, I always say one of the challenges that they have is that growing up, we don't always have creative control. Sometimes you're just a byproduct of other people's choices and other people's lifestyles and other people's way that they process. And so, growing up, when you're developing those default settings, you know, it's so important to learn to control what you can control and not let the things that you can't control live outside of and and consume you, but that's easier said and done. Much easier. And so, what I love about that space of public schools and and being invited into that space um is that instead of necessarily just talking about scripture or faith or the belief in God, which is paramount, young people they sometimes just need to see a real person in front of them talking life and being real and being honest and being raw and meeting them where they are.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Um, and so when I started Your Life Speaks, the organization um And that's if if anybody wants to reach out to you to book or anything, your life's what's the So yeah, so Your Life Speaks, it was it was it was even wild.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

So when we when I came home and um I felt like how do we start to to try to create a place that could carry a message that people could find and maybe invite me in, um the name Your Life Speaks was dropped into my heart, and to even jump on um you know the internet to see if was that domain open, like your life speaks in the domain, so I swear I've heard the time. So it was open, and the truth is is again it's such a two-edged sword for me that I it's an organization that's so your life speaks on its natural, it's a secular organization, it's about mental health, it's about substance abuse, it's about choices, it's it's very much in that space of rational thinking, but also having healthy community, and so that's their organization. And I always have the tagline like your life, your life, it speaks, it screams, it shouts. But in my heart, I'm what I'm really always saying is that God, your life, it speaks, and it speaks through people, and you use broken people. And so um I think that's that's the space for young adults right now. Um is that because of the ever-changing world of technology and the ever-changing world of just more broken families and and as just pain and suffering and just the demise of just human nature, it's happened, we see it, right? Um it's so important for young people just to be able to look somebody in the eye and say, like, I love you, I see you. I'm not here to force you down any path, but I just want you to know that you have crazy value and crazy worth and crazy potential. Um and just to be that constant voice of hope, knowing that God's gonna do a work in their life. Yeah. Um, and that's that's been the one of the things that we do has been that lane, and and God's been really gracious to it, and yeah, he's breathed on it, and we've um I've done more and been able to navigate stuff that blows me even my wildest imagination. I I can't say that, you know, because I'm a I'm a hometown kid here. I mean, I'm I'm from Grant County, Marion, Indiana. So to be here with you and and even the the work that you guys are doing in the team, it's God's like forging around you guys. Like, there's um as much as you said you've you know when we met when I was at Celebrate Recovery, um you know, I've been able to say and and to kind of watch and navigate your guys's and your flow and and kind of all that stuff. And um, I would say true right now, John, the team and that that God has forged with like your family of of just cat people out there trying to make a difference and just the flow. It's like I can see that there's an anointing on what God's doing, and so it's exciting even to be here. Um and it's it's an honor. I mean, today I spoke at a at a school and then a mental health uh summit. And there was like nerves that I don't ever have because I just love the space, but like coming back and and speaking to some of these people that are peers that I grew up with that knew the old me, right? So like they they knew the picture that I threw up there that's like the dead me. Um it's always an honor to come here. So I love you, bro, and it's this has been good.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

I love it when you come back. The pandemic. So one thing I wanted to touch back on is when you said I want people to hear that like your testimony is a weapon for the kingdom, and it's also something that the enemy will attack. And when we say the enemy, we're not just talking like a physical Satan, it can be the voice of family members, the voice of community members, it can be the voice of a lot of different things that are supposed to be safe and you know, encouraging voices, but they you know a lot of times aren't. So um I wanted to touch on that, and then um what was the first off, Nathan? Can we're gonna get a before and after picture and pop that up here. But that whole the the whole section of what he was just talking about, like you need to stop right now and go back and listen to. Um, but so so during the during the pandemic, and I do want to get to your testimony, because I think a lot of people that's one of the things with me, as well as I have known you, I feel like over the years, like I knew your story, but I had never heard that I think it was there was a church and you were actually sharing your testimony, and I was like, I didn't even know that. You know, like all of these little miracles and you know, winks from God. So uh, but I here's another thing is your circle is so important, and during the pandemic, um everything slowed down and we got to spend a little bit more time together. And I had so many, you know, and I don't I haven't really probably had a chance to tell you this, but we had a handful of conversations that like totally changed, you know, how I saw things. And and one of them we was we were walking through Hank and Britney's woods, and people were getting stuck with sticker bushes and stuff, and we and you were talking, and I was like, I just don't know what my direction is. And you kind of looked at me and you're like, What are you doing? He was like, You have this gift, you you know, you were like, You have this gift, and you're like, But what are you like, what are you doing? Like, you know, and that really hit me. So then, and I don't know if you remember this or not, but we had coffee. You were in the RV, and I drove out there and we had coffee, and we were sitting down doing a list, and we started to talk about the podcast, and you were like, Why, you know, why aren't you doing this? And um, then basically you kind of challenged me, and you were like, When are you gonna like jump off the boat? You know, you you you've been hanging out there, and that conversation haunted me in the best way. Good, you know, haunted me in the best way, and I've had conversations with people about it, but like we're here on this podcast, and part of what pushed me to just do it, and um, you know, me and me and Zach have had these opportunities to go speak and stuff. Part of what, like that little bit of encouragement and the people that you're around and the people that you're listening to is so important. So that little time, forever, I will be grateful for that section of time, even though it was rough. The pandemic was a rough time to where we got to reconnect because just in those little, you know, that I think when we had coffee, it was an hour conversation. You know, we weren't it wasn't like seven hours where we were brainstorming. You just had a notepad out and you wrote down like two things and you just set them down, and you were you were you were like, Um, what are you gonna do? Like, when are you gonna jump off the boat? You need to do this and you need to do that. And it like, um, Zach, it changed the trajectory of where I am today. And so the people around you are so important, and the people that you listen to, because you saying that, I have 99 people telling me you need to stay safe, you need to keep it safe, right? Don't, don't big moves are scary.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah, no, I'm a I'm a I'm a problem when it comes to those people. Um and again, I I I I think that there is a time to use wisdom and there is a time to use discernment. But I think sometimes um I I'm a firm believer that you plus God's the majority. I'm a firm believer that you plus him's the majority. And yeah, you gotta have those mentors and you gotta have that body around you that can help you see your blind spots. But a lot of times we we get so hung up in the details of how we're gonna get there instead of realizing like if God's called you to something, you're not gonna know what he's called you to until you take that first step off the boat, until you burn the ship, until you have a place where there's no plan B. And and I remember even when I first came home, John, that um I had a conversation with um someone, and and they had, you know, they were able to see some of my the records of kind of because God was really favored to me when prison. I was actually leaving the prison and going and speaking um towards the end of that sentence um to different universities and to some different opportunities that were kind of unusual for the state of India at the time, like how it was happening. And they had just said, you know, just just know that coming home, you may not have that same kind of opportunity. And all I heard from that was Um, my God's big. And at the end of the day, you're you you can't limit what God's gonna do. You can't limit what what the opportunities are gonna happen. At the end of the day, um, he's super, I'm natural, supernatural things happen when you're willing to just go. And so, I mean, that's really my biggest, one of my biggest byproducts has been yes, there's wisdom, and yes, be wise, but also get out of your head and don't overthink it. Like it doesn't need to be perfect and shiny and and just all polished. You you're a you're a raw piece of coal being cut into a diamond and be in process, and that's gonna happen through fire and mistakes and failure. And so I live my life that I would rather confront, fight, and fail for it than settle for the comfort of staying the same. Because what happens if you never try? Then you're living with regret, the what ifs, you never know. And all that can happen is that it didn't go the way you thought it would go. You still learned from it, you still grew from it. So, from in that that conversation we had, like I'm a believer of that. Like, I would rather see people in motion, in movement, and they're gonna have to learn and they're gonna take their their knocks and their lumps from how they should have and what they shouldn't have. Was your heart posture right? Was your heart posture wrong? What was your why? Like, all that's gonna happen, but you don't get there unless you're in motion, unless you're actually in the fire. When you're sitting on the sideline and people like, don't jump, don't be there. Hey, wait, that's at the end of the day, like go out there and fail on your face, yeah. And let God begin to like, nope, that was cute, but let me let me help you out a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

I mean, that's that's really the truth. Well, you know, and I was talking to somebody because they were like, How do you, you know, I stay pretty positive and I forgive quick, you know, and there's a lot of things in like how do you like operate in that? You know, but it's like, dude, there's been times where I don't know how I'm about to pay my bills, but I can look back and they got paid. Um, and I think we've talked about this before, but like I, you know, you step outside, there was a time I had two cars. All my the the both cars had flat tires. It's like I'm grateful to have two cars, you know, like you're gonna get through it. Like this, you know, this is America. You get what I'm saying? So you jumping is like it's not gonna, it's not gonna end you. It won't end you. And and I have so much peace now. And I still make mistakes and stuff like that, but I know that I am I am willing. I am a willing vessel to go where he calls me, no matter what that looks like, no matter where it is. There's places I'd rather not go, but if he calls me, I'm gonna go. And you can see it, like you know, when the Bible starts to talk about or said, you know, says judge them by their fruit and stuff like that, you see it like the real, that real fruit of like, oh my goodness, like this this person's voice, and it's all God, you know, because me by myself is just a mess. But like you can see, like there's an impact when they speak and they carry something different. And a lot of times there's nothing that separates Nathan Harmon from this guy over here, except for Nathan Harmon jumped off the boat, you know, even though it looked like even though he looked crazy, you know, because you do look crazy to your family and stuff, not just you, but me too. Like you, I'll be like, hey, I'm gonna do this thing. My daughters are used to it. They're like, you know, it doesn't even phase them, but like everybody else is kind of like, dude, you know what I mean? You're really like pouring everything you have into this. Like, why don't you have a retirement? You know, it's like, well, but this is what's in front of me right now. You know what I mean? I'm not I don't have I don't have a retirement plan because I'm just I'm here right now doing this, and if it costs everything I have, I'm doing it, you know? Yeah, bro. That's that's the truth, man.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

I think uh I think too often we we allow all the practical, pragmatic reasons not to to be louder than the faith and the belief that God doesn't really want your strategy. I mean he'll use it, he wants to use you, right? Like there's strategy. I've gotten to where we've gotten because there was strategy, right? There were some things God dropped in my spirit that it worked and it flowed and there was impact. But the truth is, is I think one of the challenges with the body of Christ, and one of the challenges with um the people of faith is that we continue to try to take like worldly systems when it comes to like marketing and worldly systems of when it comes to like organization and worldly systems of like what works and doesn't work, and all of that means really nothing to the eyes of God who has eyes of fire, who spoke and it was, who literally took off all of the glory. If you will just get alone with him and get your heart laid out before him and just begin to say, God, here I am, pour into me. I'm in your image, I'm in your likeness. Um, he will begin to like actually walk things out for you. And yeah, you'll go against the grain sometimes. And and yeah, you're gonna, I mean, it had never rained when Noah gets the word, like, hey, it's gonna rain, build an arc. Like it had never dropped a drop of rain. And he, this dude with the hammer, whatever he's got, right? So some pegs and some mallets or just however he's putting this thing together. I'm probably some theologian like jumping all over. There wasn't nails and hammers in, like, you know what I'm saying, right? Yeah, but uh again, I think God does things so different than our practical mind.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

And um and don't you think? And because I was talking to somebody about this the other night, but when he does that, you can't take any credit. You get what I'm saying? Like he does things in my life, and it's like, even if I wanted to, I can only hold the credit for so long because it makes absolutely no sense. You know, he he makes he moves in a way some of these times. We was I was talking about getting custody of my daughters, it was supposed to be impossible. There was no logic to what I did whatsoever. I just heard a word and I stuck with it. It was hard, it was difficult. And then, like when I'm walking back to the factory or even in front of the people at church that told me I didn't hear God, it's like it had to be God, right? Because like it literally made absolutely no sense for me to handle it this way. It was almost irresponsible.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I I think when you zoom out, and I and like you said earlier, God winks. I think when you begin on an individual level to really pause and just to see the actual hand of the presence of the Lord, the the Spirit of God um leading you and guiding you. Um you for sure will find yourself in places that was no other working alone than just by the grace of God. And that's honestly how you break change, right? Like this is Breaking Change Podcast. At the root of that, um, it's gotta be just like God's hand alone. And I think too often sometimes we we try to white knuckle it, we we try to do it on our own. And you're like, well, Nathan, you just said everything like go grind, go get it, go, don't wait for the team. That's not what I'm saying. I said go get alone with the Lord first, right? Go fall on your face first, go go actually spend time with him and get clarity and then trust that clarity, right? And I still do have a people around me, and I still do have mentors and coaches and and people that I I value tremendously, but at the end of the day, I've still got to be the one that responds to what God said and called me to. Um, and then just hang on for the ride and enjoy. And then and then look back of all those God winks because I mean I think we've all got them. We've all got we've all got a testimony, and we've all got places that the Lord um alone could have did.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah. Then um, so and one of the things you say uh to piggyback on that, I hear you say it a lot, is um hours with God, minute, minutes with men.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Yeah, yeah. So that's something so my son's 13 right now, um, and uh we got we're gonna have our fourth child. And one thing that I I'm really it's not even a coin phrase, it's not even just like uh it preaches well, it sounds well. You know, when I take my last breath, if the Lord delays his return, I don't want my son, and he's heard me speak hundreds of times. He could probably quote, he could probably do a lot of his best Nathan Harmon dad impersonations, right? He always calls me like I'm a walking billboard. But um when I take my last breath, I I want my son's testimony to be of his dad, me. Is not that he was a great communicator, not that he traveled the world, not that he touched a lot of lives, but he that his his memory will be my dad spent hours with God and minutes with men. And I mean that, like not even hyperbolically, I I want my son to see how important the secret place is and how important getting alone with him is um because that's where life happens, that's where you really break the chains, that's where anointing happens. If there's no anointing, the chains don't get broke, right? I think Isaiah says without the anointing, there ain't no yoke, the yoke don't get broke, right? And that's me and my abonic well set of saying that, right? But the truth is, is like that's where it has to happen that. Um, and so I I I'm trying my best to live a life that way. Um surrender to prayer um and and just um turning off the noise. One of the things that I miss about when I was in prison, and I I do it occasionally, but I don't get to do it as often, and it's no one's fault but mine, even as I'm talking to you, like the Holy Spirit's like convicting my heart, is I used to lay up in my bunk or I would just sit in my room and I would wrap a towel around my head where I could have no light, no, no nothing, and I would lay there sometimes for eight hours, ten hours, twelve hours sometimes, and just not move. I think one time I did it like a day and a half, and I just wrapped a towel around my my my head, and I just was I thought of like when Paul was blinded on his way to Damascus, and that there was like this this three-day period, I think it was, is like, let me just turn off every known faucet, every vision, even like around my head. Let me just try to drown out every known sense and just sit in the dark with the Lord and let me learn to hear his voice. Um and that's something that I I actually even talking about, those are some moments that I did a lot of that, you know, years ago. And I still go and get alone with the Lord, but there's something about waiting on the Lord, but then also not hesitating um when you feel like you got the clarity to move. And it may sound silly and weird and strange to people, but you gotta move. You have to, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

And I'll I'll tell you, like with the uh with the alone time with God, right? Like sometimes people they're they're new to the faith, and they're like, What does this mean? And um one of the things my aunt used to tell me was like I she she had been saved for years, and I don't know if I've already said this on the podcast, but I was like, I just got saved, and I was like, So, like when you pray, it's something we're supposed to do. I don't always have something to say. And she was like, I just start off with thank you, Jesus, thank you, Jesus, thank you, Jesus. And that prayer has sent me into so many conversations with God, but that's it's so important because first off, some of us are gonna get to heaven and he's gonna be like, I didn't know you, but I did all these things, I didn't know you. That's how you get to know the me and you have gotten to know each other over the years by communication. That's right, you know, and my brother's in here, and like we've communicated. I know, you know, I mean, we know when we're going through stuff and we know the victories, and we know the highs and the lows, and I can tell in my life when I start to feel anxious, when I start to feel depression, when I feel overwhelmed, when I can't sleep, it's directly it's a direct effect of not spending that alone time with God. And I'm not for me, like I'm not talking five or ten minutes. Like, I gotta go to the porch, headphones on, and I'm t I'm about to have a conversation with my father, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yeah, that's um I think prayer's a muscle. Um, prayer is something, it's a discipline. Um, there's some really good books out there on prayer, but to be honest, when people ask me like to begin a prayer life, I think the model that Jesus really gave us in what we would call the Lord's prayer is that when I began to cut my teeth of what and have like a prayer life, I would take each line and I would just meditate on it, you know, our father, and just spend time like you're my father, you're my maker, you're my creator, and sit in that and marinate that, right? And just let each one of that that template that that Jesus gave us, because I I'm a firm believer that Christ came to absolutely bring us back into relationship as the second Adam, like it speaks of in the scripture. And he came to do the works of redemption that I couldn't do, he came to pay the cost that I couldn't do, he he came to give me grace that I don't deserve, he came to be Christ alone slain from the foundation of the earth for certain. But I believe he also came to elevate humanity back into proper position as a son and a daughter of God. And I don't think Christ did a lot of his activities on earth outside of the realm what we are being invited into when even when in John chapter 14 or 15, when he says, You'll do greater works than these. Well, this is the Son of God that's raising the dead, casting out demons, healing the lepers, right? Like this is a Christ doing amazing things, and he said, We'll do greater works than these. And I think sometimes we want to rationalize it in some practical way, or does he really mean that when we're connected to the heart of the Father, that we will see the power of God impact because we're an ambassador, we're supposed to be an image bearer, we're supposed to be the light of the world, it's what he tells us. And that comes to us getting alone with God and meditating on and on like that pattern of prayer, because I think Jesus was teaching us. The disciples didn't say, Hey, teach us how to heal people, hey, teach us how to do these cool things. They were like, Teach us your prayer life, Jesus. That was the thing that they saw was different of this humble man that came out of what they would see almost out of nowhere that shows up and is wrecking the course of history. I heard somebody say this the other day, like before Christ, like the demonic world, when you read the scriptures, like they're chaining, they're chaining people up out in the graveyards, right? Like the demonic world of unclean spirits and the principalities and powers, they were very much on the uh offense. And it seems to be through the gospels that people were afraid of this um the evil and the darkness. Then when Jesus shows up, like those same demons are like freaking out, running out of here, let me out. Like they wanted no part of the Son of God, and I think that's they understood the disciples, they saw that kind of connection that Christ had, and they were like, That's the source, that's the source. And and I tie that in. You know, Jesus did all these amazing miracles that were the finger and the hand of God, but also who was Jesus on the cross, he says, Forgive them, for they know not what they do. He was unoffendable, he never took bitterness, he never took this place where we're not gonna forgive, and he was a conduit for the presence of God as the Son of God, and miracles invaded his life. Um, and I think that's why it's so important for us to have a heart of forgiveness and compassion and mercy. Um, and that's who God called us to be. He he literally speaks to Moses, and I always love it because when you're like, Who is God? Well, God actually speaks audibly to Moses and and declares who he is. He says, I'm the Lord, the Lord God, merciful, gracious, long-suffering, abounding in goodness and truth. So like ground zero, God help me be merciful, gracious, and long-suffering.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Yeah. And that's tough. Well, and I think uh a couple of things with the the with the unforgiveness thing. I think it's something that we so many people have unforgiveness that turns into bitterness, that turns into stuff such an internal distraction. And we were talking up, well, I think it was up here the other day, and I was telling them, like, you like the Bible gives us these examples. So we can't say we, you know, you either believe it all or you don't. But there's two really good examples in there. And one is Jesus on the cross saying, Forgive them, the other one is Stephen. I consider him like in our world, he was basically a busboy, he was a kid, and he stood up against the Pharisees and like this is the this is the gospel. And as they were killing him, he did exactly what his, you know, he was like, Don't please don't hold this against them. Now they're killing him. So when I get in my feelings, and people are like, How did you let that go? It was like I had to. Because if Stephen can have rocks being thrown at his head, that's a brutal death. I know you've seen the videos, like we I watch them sometimes because I just that's our brothers and sisters dying in that fashion. And it's heartbreaking, but um it also builds your faith. Martyrs build your faith. But with Stephen and Jesus, because they were with Jesus, they were trying to, they were trying to embarrass him. So on top of just like, it's not you're just killing me, you're trying to humiliate me. And I look at these people, you know, and so like when it comes to me needing to forgive, I you know, I think of Stephen, like having rocks coming at, you know, getting thrown at his head and body, a brutal slow death. And I he didn't feel like, you know, I we know the story, but but to in that moment be like, all of these people, every rock thrower, everybody that's you know making fun of me and cheering right now, don't hold this against them. That's his final act, you know, and and Jesus only has a few minutes left on earth, and what's he say not on earth is physical Jesus? He says, forgive them. And it's like if they can forgive, like it all like that makes me tear up. Like if you can look at the people that literally want to embarrass you, the people that you've argued with, and it looks like they're getting the last laugh. It looks like they're getting you, and there's not going to be, you know, Jesus knew there was rebuttal, but like Stephen, in that situation, you and you're looking at these people that you just got into an argument with, and you know they're cheering, and this is you know, to look at them and say, Don't hold this against them. What can somebody do to me that is unforgivable?

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Yeah, and and I think it's Ephesians that says that bitterness will quench and it grieves the spirit of God. And I think I I've seen with my own eyes the miraculous hand of the presence of God heal people and and and like literally heal people of Tourette's true story. Um rods that their body begin to um finally heal and start repeating pushing the rods out of their body because they literally forgave a deep wound, a deep trauma. And I think sometimes um on like I tell students this in like that practical space, like forgiving people isn't justifying and waving the white flag for what somebody's did to you, right? Like sometimes when we're asking someone to forgive somebody of it's literally like sexual abuse or physical abuse or just deep trauma, like deep stuff, right? Like why do like how how could a loving God this thing happens? Well, first off, we're in a fallen world and there's brokenness and and there's death, and there's an enemy that wants anything in his power that is roaring around this place. And so sometimes when we see the the the demise of humanity where it says creation is groaning for the sons of God, that yes, there's there is a broken state of this earth that's not God's will or intent. And so it's not God that's a like just creating the abuse or the wounds, like people are people, and and people suck sometimes, and there's a lot of trauma and and a lot of these trauma situations that build. But the truth is is when you can begin to realize forgiving people isn't for like them per se. It's it's also not justifying what they've done to you, it's so that you can continue to have a place in your heart that can be pure, and you can continue to let the the like the salve of God and the healing of God, because if there's an arrow in there, like God can't begin to heal the broken heart when like this it's still this that that thing's in the middle of the brokenness, right? Like you gotta extract the the Blunt object so God can begin to heal it. And and that's the struggle. And that's not easy. And it's a process.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

It is a process. And I think that's one of the things. It doesn't mean that you're justifying what they did. It doesn't mean forget and move on and invite them back to dinner. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like Stephen wasn't saying it's okay to murder. You know, he was saying forgive them for this, you know, and that made him like, you know, he had an experience like nobody else we've ever heard in the Bible. Like he had a standing up father.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

You know, I'd push back on something on that for a second, though, John. It's uh, man, uh I think sometimes, and and I and I agree with you, like forgiving people isn't inviting them back to dinner, but I think even in that, we get into that place of still provision, like uh protection.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

And to be honest, either we're dead or we're not, right? Like Christ in Christ, I die daily. Either we're dead to ourselves and we're just a conduit of heaven, and that at the end of the day, um, to live is Christ and to die is gain. And I think sometimes we are afraid to let somebody back into your space. And I'm not telling you just go out there and just like rule out the red carpet for somebody who's hurt you or abused you. Yeah, but what I am saying is don't also set yourself up in a place to think that God can't um begin to bring some kind of radical reconciliation there, um, and and continue to kind of to heal somebody and to do stuff in that space because truthfully, um, we still want to hedge our bet sometimes, right? Like we still want to say, like, I can forgive, but now there's like some there's some some walls I'm gonna put up. No, no, and there is wisdom in that. There's some proverbs on that. I get that. But to be honest, I think too often if we would just trust God radically and just say, I forgive, and not let our minds go to like the what is now is that gonna like is are they gonna try to come back into my life? What's that mean? I think sometimes we run that scenario and we're already saying, like, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Forgiving with stipulations, basically.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah, I and and I think, and again, here in my heart, there's wisdom, but to be honest, I think too often we forgive, and we're already kind of putting the um the stipulations on it. And I think God wants those stipulations. He wants to know that he's either your here's the thing, he's either your shepherd, I shall not want, and if I'm wanting, is he my shepherd? Write that one down, Zach. I mean, that that's that's just I mean, and again, that's radical. And I and I'm I'm not and I'm I'm not saying that I'm at a place from never wanting or I'm never in that situation or that space, but like that's the gospel to me. It's like die to yourself, get over yourself. A lot of these things that are like self-preservation, really it's self-centerness, right? Like I you hurt my feelings, or all there's a lot of me's and I still in that, and he wants to just me to die to all that and to say, Lord, Jesus didn't forgive and say, now I'm gonna create some pay like some walls here, like he's on the cross and he knows forgiving them, and they're still gonna kill me.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Yeah. And they're probably never actually gonna give me show him any honor, love.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

No, and so like that that's um I think it's freeing and liberating just to say, you know what? Let me just let me just be an open book. And let me just at the end of the day, um, if you if you if you slap me and leech on the other cheek, right? Like the actual words of Jesus matter, and uh there's freedom in that. And again, of course, I'll I'll curtail it. There's some wisdom in the proverbs, like don't hit me with like I know what scriptures say, but I just think too often we we're trying to hedge our bets.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

So just to like do it when we forgive, just forgive. Yeah, you get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 47:38

And let and let let it lay where it's gonna lay because you don't know what God listen, a family forgave and I and I do want to get into this too. A family forgave me in a way that not many human beings would ever see possible. And uh I just can't put a limit on what God can do in the ministry of reconciliation. Um and so sometimes when you're forgiving with stipulations, you're truthfully still trying to be God of your situation.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Yeah. And speaking of this, so so you said you said, and I and I understand this, um, and I think that's why some of us that might be seen as a little bit more radical, but he was forgiven of much, forgives much. Yeah. And so now I would like to touch on the story, like how you got to a place where um one of the you were in a situation, and and we'll kind of start from the beginning, but just that the outline of it is you were in a situation at one point where people forgave you for think you know, for something that is would be very difficult to forgive. So Yeah, let me just get into it, right? So set that up for us.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Yeah, man, I I was uh I was a I was a young young adult, just running from God and um, you know, just just kind of out there running, running around, walking in my wounds, battling all kinds of stuff, mental health and and anger and frustration, and that led into substance abuse. And it just led me into a lot of um just a lot of chains. And it it it spiraled into me being a 23-year-old kid, um, homeless at times and on and in and out of different people's couches, and you know, just in that space of brokenness, and there would be people that would try to like intersect my life and talk to me about the Lord and and try to bring me back. And um, I just wasn't trying to hear that. Um, I was angry, and and that led to me just living a life of um a lack of purpose and and running in those circles of of just smoking and drinking and partying. And at 23, um, it was a normal just kind of some friends that came home from college, and uh we were all gonna go out to a fire and and have a bonfire and and and bought some alcohol and and some and a bag of pills and just kind of doing what we've always done in that space. And it led to us then going to a bar, and then when the bar was gonna close, we were gonna go to um another friend's house, and I decided like I could leave a little bit early and um go get the next place ready, um, but I was too drunk to drive, and um I decided I I was gonna call my friend Priscilla. Um Priscilla Owens was uh a young lady a few years older than me that had moved from Alabama at the time, and she uh she had befriended, she was a friend of one of our friends, and she wasn't there that night, and uh I needed to ride to TJ's house, and um she came to get me to take me to the next space and basically like a designated D. Yeah, like a D D. And when we left that the middle of that night, somehow in the process of leaving the bar um and getting to her car, I got I got her keys, and we didn't make it to the next place, and um I had a tree at a high rate of speed, and I woke up in a hospital and I woke up a police over top of me asking me questions, what's her name and who is she? And her cell phone was locked, and her ID wasn't in her purse, and I said her name's Priscilla, Priscilla Owens, what's going on? And they said, We can't really tell you much. Um She's alive, but there's a lot of trauma, and and long story short, in that place, they let me go home that morning with my mom, um, and I could get the details of like the severity of what had happened.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Um Were you checking the paper, you said?

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Yeah, so the the paper I nobody would tell me anything, but the paper had said, like, you know, two lifeline to Parkview Hospital, one fighting for their life. And I stayed up the entire night waiting for the paper to come out the next morning, and I made every deal. Like, you know, God, if you're real now, let her live and I'll I'll change my life. And the paper came out that morning, and the headlines had pretty much said you know, crash victim had had died. Um, the wages of sin is is is death, and sometimes you think you read that it's about your life and your death, and if you keep living in sin, like you're destroying your life. But the truth is sometimes we live in spaces and we live outside of the will of God, and we hurt people with our actions, and and we we can really forever impact other families and communities when we're living for ourselves, and that's really what I was doing. Um and you know, when the wreck happens and I'm trying to like process all of this a few days after the accident, the the Owens um family, Carolyn Owens, the mother of of Priscilla and the the sister um Olivia, they they had kind of messaged through to some of my family that they wanted to have a conversation with me, and I had never met them before. Again, Priscilla had moved from Alabama a few months previous to this, and um the wreck happens and it's my fault and I own it. And you know, Priscilla was also a mother of of two little kids at the time, and and I'll touch on that towards the end of this because that's this next place of like God, I I trust you. Um But they want me to call them, and so I call three days after the wreck as a 23-year-old kid. Were you nervous? I was terrified. I mean at the end of the day, I'm I'm terrified, I'm fearful, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I don't even have words to describe, like to know that what I had just done and the the the the ramifications of not only my life but the fact that I forever changed the dynamic of another family. Um and they answer the phone and I I'm weeping and and Carolyn and Olivia they're they're they're kind of crying too, and they just the conversation pretty much is we don't think one choice should destroy two families, and we decide in this moment to pick love, and we we wanted you to know that we forgive you, um and we we're asking you just to try to make the world a better place.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

So, Nathan, two days, two, three days after they had this conversation, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

And um, and let me be clear, and sometimes there's been mis messaging, and uh you're always gonna have people that are critical of of stories and and critical of of outcomes. And um, there have been people that have said, like, you're you're telling people that God allowed Priscilla to die to give a cool story to impact humanity. I'm like, that's never came out of my mouth one time. This family just found radical grace, and it's my fault that that Priscilla's not here, and if I could change it a million times over, I would. And um, but this family found this radical just courage to forgive me. And as they're forgiving me, I knew what grace was. I've I was raised a PK kid, and I was running from all of that. But when this family's forgiving me, the grace of God became more than just a word. It was like tangible, and and I think that's a huge reason why people, when they find Christ and they really surrender and they're impacted by just the the cost and the price that Jesus paid and the grace that's not just a word, it's power to overcome. That when grace becomes more than just a concept, a theological term, but it touches your life that Christ alone can can take you in all of your brokenness and take every situation that's around you that that makes no practical sense to anybody else. They had every right to hate me, and they forgave me. It it just changed my life in an instant. Um and that began, and that was in 2009, so that's you know, 17 years ago. That that just began um a work that God began to build, and and and Nathan Harmon died, like the old me died, and and I came to the cross, and I I I I laid down my life on that altar, and I I've never in a place where I've ever tried to pick it back up again, like your way, not my way. Um and that just it began, you know, the family forgave me, but choices had consequences, and so I was actually charged with reckless homicide, and I was sentenced to 15 years in prison. And this is where like some of those God-wink moments begin to happen, is when I'm getting sentenced and I had signed a plea agreement, and I'm confessing my fault in the microphone, and I'm like basically like just I'm guilty, I'm guilty. I remember um the prosecutor at the time had asked, like, what about restitution? You know, the loss of of Priscilla and how that's gonna impact their family, and it's all those dynamics. And I remember Carolyn, the mother, had kind of stood up and said, I want to speak to the Nathan's a lawyer and the prosecutor. And they stepped outside, and and I'm like, What's happening? You know, you just never know in the middle of money, and they could have woke up and been like angry today, and forgiveness can sometimes be temporal, right? You just never know. My lawyer comes up to me and like leans over and says, like, I don't know what's happening, but the only thing this family is demanding is that they take the handcuffs off you, have no police around you, and just love on you because they do not want you to have to go to prison. And like the angels in that room, like I mean for real, for real, the presence of God in that room was so tangible. And like they loved on me and they poured into me. And then as I'm I'm being transported to to prison, I I remember like I'm like, I'm I'm pretty, I'm all gas, no breaks, but I gotta know that I know. And so like Gideon's fleece, you know, like, God, is this your will? Like, show me like your hand. And so I remember I said, God, my prayer was like, I just gotta know that your hand is now in you've intersected the story, and I'm all in. And and I I told myself when the family forgave me that I was gonna try to change the world and not let Priscilla pass away for nothing. Um, her name meant a lot to me as I was forgiving myself and going through this healing process and and trying to um let that be a moment where I felt like how could I put a ripple effect of kingdom impact on the rest of humanity for the rest of my life? So her name meant a lot. And so I get this, I told my mom, I need a Bible. I never had a leather Bible before. And my mom had, you know, I told her, like, send me this leather Bible, and and she sent it to me. And on the introduction page, for some reason, the editor of that publication of that Bible, he had picked a poem from a school teacher from the 1800s, and it said, Give me your word, law and love combining, night shall vanish from the internal day, precept and promise. And it was written by a woman named Priscilla Owens. And here I am in prison with the greatest love story ever written, and I'm responsible for this, this, this, this woman losing her life for my choices, and and now I get a Bible with her name, and and these little God-wink moments begin to happen, and and I just surrendered and submitted. And next thing you know, I'm just like digging in and I'm trying to build that prayer life, and God's speaking vision about, you know, trying to make an impact. And like I I didn't know what it looked like. And next thing I'm I'm asked to start going outside of the prison walls and street clothes and speaking to like IU and the Purdue and the Bull State and some other venues that they were asking me to go and speak to students on like substance abuse and criminal criminal justice and and other community gatherings. And um three and a half years into that journey, God opened up doors, and I walked out of the prison 11 and a half years early. Um and I come home, and you know, the Owens family was still very much there and supportive, and Carolyn the mother and Olivia the sister and their their their family. Um and that's really began this journey. I remember I repped a I wrecked a white Jeep Cherokee that was the vehicle that Priscilla was driving. And a buddy of mine had said, Hey, I don't know exactly what happened, but God told me to give you this car. Um, and he had no idea that he gave me the exact make model and collar of the vehicle that had gotten wrecked, and my parents in prison, they actually got remarried to each other. Um, it's just so many crazy stories. And I say all that though, but John, truth is is that God got these crazy stories in all of our lives. Like the the testimony of the God winks in all of our lives, um it's it's real. And if anyone will pause and just I think sometimes he will hear um the depths of certain, and yes, those have been forgiven much, forgive much, and there are there are things that impact us deeply, but the truth is is that we've all got these moments where God's grace has been right in your face and he longs for you just to say, like, I'm done running, I'm done running. And uh that began this journey of um man just trying to live a life sold out and surrendered, and and no plan B, um, which is radical to some, but it's how I live my life, and God's been really gracious to it. And you know, I'm in a time right now that truthfully, like Priscilla had two two children that were uh I I won't know exactly their their ages, but they were young when the wreck happened, and there's some stories in that where um they were they um they have they've grown up now, and uh I've I've not been able to have a conversation. Um and I don't now they're they're adults and um I'm in that place where I'm like I'm trusting the Lord and in that season. Um they're just now in the last couple years over 18, and and it was never my place to reach out and to try to insert anything, you know. I've had to surrender and submit that to the Lord. Um, not that I haven't been thoughtful or cognitant of it or I I've diminished it, and never. I just every single day and every opportunity, I just continue to say, let me first off serve the Lord with all of my heart, my mind, my soul, my strength, but also there's that place of like I've made a promise to to Carolyn and Olivia that I was gonna try to impact the world and their compassion and their forgiveness and their grace, that I was like the loss of Priscilla um was gonna be a catalyst that I began to live a life where God used me and I want to try to change the world for your name's sake. And so I've you know, for the last 17 years now, I've I've I'm trying to be faithful. Um and now that you know Priscilla's kids are are older, uh, I don't know what it looks like. Uh I'm just trusting that the Lord sometime I'll have a conversation. Um they have the right to have any emotion, any feeling, any anything that they want, and that's okay. Um but I just I wanna know I'm sorry, you know. Uh this is like it's this is raw raw right now because this is a this is a place that I've wrestled with for a few years of what does that look like? If I was on the other side of this, right? If I was someone that lost my mom to some stupid act from some stupid dude, right? Like being real, like this idiot. Like how where what would I want him to reach out to me? Would I would I what would that really so that's been something that I've had to just like wrestle through and ultimately like I'm just trusting the Lord in it. Um and I don't know where and how that lands and how that lays. Um I I'm guessing, and I want to speculate that they've probably have got some kind of idea of what we've tried to do for the last 17 years um to try to impact the world and know that there's thousands and thousands and thousands of kids that haven't committed suicide and that uh have gotten sober and um are trying to figure out which ways up and which ways down. And I know that that means nothing, and then again, if I could change it, I would go back to that night. So so Priscilla would still be here, right? But all I can do is move forward and take what life has happened, some of my own choices and some of my own decisions, but also some of this, the rhythms of just like the craziness of life, and say, you know what, God, use it, and I just gotta trust Him in the process. And so this is kind of like really one of the first times that I've ever even I've spoken about that part of my story. Like there's still some unfinished circles, right? Some unfinished loops that I don't know the outcome. Um, and I'm okay with what the outcome is because I know that I'm in my heart. I just I'm trying to continue to let a life that is no longer here be a seed. The parable Jesus talked about that can bring a lot of life and that doesn't change them. Because they would probably want their mom a hundred percent, right? Yeah. But that's all I can do. Um so I'm praying into that, you know. Maybe they'll hear this sometime. Um and they can be angry and they can be mad, they can have any emotion that they want, but it's important that I hope one day I can look them in their eye and just tell them I'm sorry. You know? So there's the like there's the more of the raw part of the story with my life that a lot of people don't know like where I'm at as I've gotten older, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:26

Yeah, that's so they requested that you get your that you take the shackles off so they could hug you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

Yeah, like the the Carolyn and uh uh and uh Olivia did in in in the in the courthouse. Um I won't say the judge's name, right? Because he literally was like, uh that's not legal. Because I mean I was property of the state of Indiana. I had pled guilty to reckless homicide. I was sentenced to 15 years, like I was property of the state. DOC number I probably could remember if I've already thought about it, right? But like that was like 220069 or something like that, right? Like I was theirs. Um and the gov uh the judge literally said, um uh they literally was like he didn't know what to say. He was like, I'm gonna grant this. And so I'm being unshackled, and their family gets to surround me and just love on me and cry over me and um to let me know as from their perspective as the mother and as the sister at the time, like they they wanted they didn't want that from me. Um but to be honest, I'm glad the process happened the way it did because it was in that time of prison and isolation that I had to really get alone with the Lord and find out who I was. And uh I think sometimes we run it we run from isolation and we run from those alone times and those down times, and uh I don't think you can really hear clearly what God has for you unless you're willing to get alone with the Lord. And if you're not gonna get alone with him, and he's got a call in your life, he's gonna get you alone with him, one way or the other, right? I think uh I think anybody and I know a lot of people listen to this escaping the chains, we come from maybe addictions and broken paths. And I'm just a huge believer that God uses captivity throughout all the scripture, God uses captivity to get somebody to a place where they can't look anywhere else other than him. And man, that captivity, when you allow and you cry out to God, he's mighty to safe. And then chains get broken, and then you begin to realize, man, I'm running and I'm sober, and I'm running, and I'm I'm actually living life on life's terms, and I don't have to keep looking over my shoulders, other than the fact I'm looking over my shoulders because I'm saying, devil, you can't touch me anymore because I come in the authority in the name of the Lord. Yes. Um, and there's freedom in Christ. He came to set captives free. Luke 418, 418, I think, or 17, one of the two.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

And and that's available, like if you're listening, that's available to you. You know, we say it all the time. There's nothing special. If anything, we're unspecial. You know, I mean, me, like our stories, like we're not we're the un the un the misfits, kind of the untouchables, the voiceless, like that's what we were. But this is that freedom is available to you, and you can think, well, I've done these things, we've all done these things. And you can think like, well, you you'll have all kinds of thoughts. And if he's if God's coming after you and you have a calling on your life, which you do, and you have a purpose, which you do, you're never gonna be satisfied. There's not a pill out there, there's not a drink out there, there's not a relationship out there, you know, there's not a movie, there's not a career. That none of that stuff is gonna fulfill what you what what you desire because that it's the simple relationship and connection with your father. So you are gonna go through life. And it is when I say it's available to you, we are surrounded on a regular basis by people that have no business, probably even having any freedom from jail, from you know, from addiction. When we do the when we have people raise their hands, how many of you have overdosed and died? It's 50 to 80 percent of the people in front of us, they were dead, but for God, but Jesus stepped in. But you have to call out to him. Don't try to figure everything out, don't try to get cleaned up, like go to him as you are, the mess that you are, the broken vessel that you are, go to him as you are, and these are not just stories we're telling you about that are people that have been given a certain kind of favor. This is what the reason we're telling you these stories, the reason we tell you about our lives, the reason that we tell you that there's hope, the reason that we tell you you don't have to live this way is because you have access to the exact same thing that we're talking about. You had there's there's an access to peace because doctors can subscribe, they can give you prescriptions for all kinds of things, but you ain't gonna find one that says, Hey, take this for peace. That's only found in our Father. There's not a thing at that pharmacy that says, take this for peace, because they can't give it to you. This world can't give it to you. The only thing that can give you peace is Jesus Christ and a relationship with him and surrendering to him.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:23

Yeah, that's that's good, bro. That's good. I um if you're just listening and you and you've gotten this far in the pod, um just know that God's hand is so mighty to save, and don't think that you're the exception. I think sometimes we think God can do it for them. God, I've seen him do it over there. But man, I'm the exception. I'm the one that God can't do it for. You're not the exception. You absolutely are the one that the father would love, nothing more to say, come home. Come and just try and sit at my table and test and see that I'm good. And in that, yeah, there's a death to yourself, and there's a death to you actually having to come to the end of yourself. But I think that's the place where ultimately the chain gets broken when you just stop and you surrender and you stop putting all of these caveats on what it's supposed to look like, and and and all you know, all the stuff. You're not the exception. God is so longing. The the cost of the cross and the reward of our king's kingdom, you're that reward. You're the one that he saw, and he's not only does he see you, and he doesn't only call you friend anymore, he even now calls us sons and daughters. Like you were made in the image of him. And you may look at your hands right now and there's scars, and you may look at your in in in the mirror right now, and you see like the the the wounds of life and poor choices. That's not who you are. You are set apart, you are beloved, you are you are precious in his sight. And if you can just get to a place of stop running and submit and surrender and say, God, here I am. I don't have any kind of people even around me, maybe. Maybe you don't have any kind of uh a network of friends, maybe you've burned every bridge, maybe you are literally right now, like you are on the brink of taking that last pill, or you're on the brink of taking that last drink, you're on the brink of making that forever decision. Stop. You're not the exception. I've seen him do it too many times. The Lord loves you and he's so actively involved with you right now. Just you have to begin, and I always say, dare to believe that he is exactly who he says he is merciful, gracious, long-suffering, abounding in goodness and truth. He's after you for right who you are, and he'll take all of your stuff and he will knit it together like a tapestry, and he will put you and do things around you, through you, and for you for his name's sake. And you'll turn around 17 years later, and all you can do is say, by the grace of God alone, here I stand. That's all of our testimony. And any of these other um theological circles or church circles and people that maybe have hurt you or disappointed you, people that are gonna hurt you. People that are gonna disappoint you or people. But he won't. He's faithful and he's good, and he meets you. And don't let other people's mistakes and other people's failures live louder than the voice of truth, which says that you're never too far gone. Give people grace that we're all just people trying to navigate humanity and we make mistakes and we disappoint people. You can't allow church hurt, and you can't allow other people's failures be the reason that you don't let God be what God alone can do, be the rock that changes your life. So that's my heart to cry for you. Your life, it's got crazy value because you're made in his image and his likeness. He's got a plan for you to prosper you, to give you a hope and a future. And these are for most of us scriptures and verses and words we've heard time and time again. It doesn't mean that it's not true. It just maybe means you haven't gotten to the end of yourself yet. But maybe tonight, maybe today, no matter where you're at in this place, you actually begin to get alone with God, get on your face and say, God, here I am, and He's gonna meet you. And he can break the chains that can't be broken in any other way. You got a lot of stories, and go listen to the next pod, and go listen to the previous pod and go find another one. No matter what it looks like, no matter how the product, whatever it looks like, it all comes back to one thing: the grace of God alone can meet you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

Praise God. Praise God. Zach, you got anything? Nothing after that. Nathan? Nathan, thank you so much for coming in. I'm sure this isn't the last time we're gonna do this, but um, you have blessed us and anybody listening, listen, like he said, get on your face, call out to Christ, get in your Bible, and find a church that is a Bible teaching church. Um, listen to some worship music. You can you can start to make those adjustments in your life. It's not as difficult as it sounds, like you just it's one step at a time. You know, it for me it was Jesus Christ. If you're real, I need you now, and that was the beginning of quite an adventure.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:12

Yeah, and I think we call to speaking on that, you're never gonna find the perfect church. No, like there's people are people, broken people trying to build a kingdom that's with a bunch of broken people, and so I think sometimes when you've been hurt from people in the church or you're looking for this perfect church, um, to be honest, you're just continuing to find an excuse that you don't want to surrender yet. And that's okay, right? And that's okay. Just don't don't blame the church, don't blame people. I'll be the first to tell you the the the the four walls of the church ain't gonna save you, and people aren't gonna save you, but the Lord will. And man, if you allow your heart to be gracious and merciful and let his nature become your nature, you begin to have compassion. I just ask sometimes for you to have the same mercy and compassion um on others um that are just trying to figure this thing out um that God met you with. And so um that's important too, because you need a body around you. You you're really not an island. Um, but in that you gotta be willing to burn the ships and go. No plan B. No plan B. All gas, all Jesus, no lies of the enemy's breaks.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:15

Amen. So if you're listening, forgive. Cry out to God, cry out to Jesus. Some of y'all would need to hear this. It's time to jump off that boat. And uh, no plan B. Minutes with men, hours with God. There's a lot of there's a lot of stuff in here that you can apply to your life right now that will um will be of a change for you spiritually, internally, but it would also be a thing that changes your life to where the people on the outside are like, why are they glowing like that? Why are they moving like that? So it has been such a blessing to have Nathan on. Nathan Harmon, he's on all the social on all the socials under Nathan Harmon. Um, and go check him out. They are he's with the Wild Ones. Is there a page for that or a website?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:04

Yeah, Kingdom Wild, we have to do a lot of stuff. Kingdom Wild is is a group of young adults that we're just trying to pour into the 18 to 25 year olds that um you know we're just uh I think discipleship's a really big deal. And what does it look like to follow Jesus? Like Jesus had people follow him, and that was throw people on their hips. And so we got a group of young adults that are um just burners, they're all in, and uh uh they're um they're they're young adults that are just again, I'm always pushing them to to jump and and to go and to and to see what God can do for them. So um it's a group of young adults that I just I love to call friends and family, and it's uh it's a growing thing, but we'll just see what the Lord does with it. Because I don't even know what he's gonna do with it, right? Like again, I don't overthink it. I'm like, okay, we're gonna do this. What's it look like? Okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:45

We pivot. I I pivot a lot. Yeah, stay and pivot. There you go. There's another one. Be prepared to pivot. So, Nathan, we thank you. And before before we sign off, I want to thank you personally again for some of the words that you spoke into me and telling me to jump because it literally that you are standing in, um, you're sitting in an environment that had a lot to do with that encouragement. So we will we we are grateful. My family's grateful for you. You've been a blessing, and we love you, brother. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode today. Make sure you subscribe to our channels and follow us and give us reviews on all of the platforms. If you really like what you heard today, share it with somebody that you care about. Thank you, we love you.