Meth to Miracle Dad | Bryan Sandella

After years of meth, prison, and losing his family, Bryan surrendered his son to God. Then one text changed everything.

After years of cooking and selling meth, he hit rock bottom and served two years in prison. There, he found Jesus, married his wife after release, and began rebuilding his life. He shares the pain of losing nearly everything, including his relationship with his son, who once told a judge he didn’t want to see him. That moment forced Bryan to confront his motives and learn to love without expecting anything in return.

He surrendered his son to God and after eight years of silence, received a life-changing text:

“Yo, Dad.”

This is a story of forgiveness, faith, and the power of surrender. If this encouraged you, share it with someone who needs hope.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to Escaping the Chains podcast. We are so excited to have our brother Brian Sandela with us today. Brian, I want you to introduce yourself, but are you from Cleveland? Are you in Cleveland? Where are you from exactly? Yes, in Cleveland.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Spent most of my life in Akron, but I've been in Cleveland.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

I always say Cleveland, but I don't know. So we went to a prison, some some of the fellas in uh you and I in Lake Erie, and that's called Lake Erie Correctional Facility. We had a blast. Yes, we did. It was such a good time. So I want to get your story, but but one thing I want to do first is like go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell everybody what you do now, where you're at, all that fun stuff, and then we're gonna dig in.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

So um my name's Brian Sindela. Um now I'm a I'm a pastor of the Church House of Living Stones, uh, which is in Euclid, Ohio, uh, east suburb of Cleveland. Um what else did what else?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well, that's cool. I mean, we can start with that. I think we covered everything. You know where he's from, you know what he does. Yep. Rest ain't your business, people. Uh so um so uh Brian gave a message when we were at the prison, and I want to have him share that. It was out of acts. Do you remember? I had brought it up. I mean, I I remember, but I mean you're gonna re-preach that thing here in a minute. So but first let's start with Brian. So I know that you um spent some time in prison. So just uh and and we don't dig into a lot of background necessarily, but how did you end up in prison to begin with? Like what was where was life at to where you ended up in prison and how long were you in there?

SPEAKER_03 1:42

So I um I was in prison for two years, but it was uh an ongoing cycle my whole life. Yeah. Basically got locked up as a juvenile for the first time, and then I kind of mellowed out, and then uh in and out. I think the first case I caught was right after high school. So I don't know, I was like maybe 19. I got six six felonies, uh convictions anyway, a lot more that were on the books, but yeah, um, so yeah, I uh I used I used to cook meth, did meth, sold meth for for almost 18 years of my life. So the last case I caught, um I ended up going on the run for two years and uh moved my family down to Charlotte, North Carolina. Figured I could uh escape my reality, but you know, wherever you go, there you are. So I uh moved down there, ended up getting caught down there, uh extradited back to Ohio, finished my time.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

And and how much time did you have to be? At the correctional facility that we went to, you did time.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

That was my last stop of that trip. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Oh so what kind of an impact did it have on your family? Had you already were you married when you got when you went to Lake Erie or nope, so my wife now, I mean, I've we've known each other since first grade.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Um we kinda, you know, we always had we we lived in the same neighborhood, so we always kind of had a crush on each other, you know, all through elementary school. Uh at the beginning of high school after my freshman year, I ended up moving to Akron to live with my dad. And but her and I always kept in contact. So, like 20 years later, you know, she she called me one day and was like, hey, I'm coming to Cleveland, I want to see you. You know, and and we hooked up, completely destroyed each other's lives. Um, more so myself, you know, because I she had no idea what she was getting into.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

And um so yeah, we had two kids uh right away as soon as she moved back to Ohio. And um and then, you know, I lived, you know, the life I was living, put her through all kinds of stuff. But we didn't get married until you know I got saved, came to the Lord. She ended up coming to the Lord at the same time. The Lord healed our relationship, our family restored it, and we we actually got married the the week I got out of prison. And we've been married almost seven years now.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

That's what I'm talking about. Praise God. So um, so how many you have two kids with her? Is that how many kids you have all together? Three? I have three with her. Three with her, and how many, how do you how many do you have altogether? Five. So you have five. What is your so we've talked about this a little bit, and um I think one of my favorite things is like when I hear like families start to be restored. So I know you have it, would it be your oldest son that you had the roughest time with relationship-wise, or my my second oldest. Your second oldest. So what was so what was it like with those two with you living that lifestyle and kind of were you were you able to be present in their lives when they were growing up?

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Or so yeah, so my oldest one, um, I had custody of him until I he was about five or six years old when I I caught my fake first big dope case, and um they raided my house. Um and then and then you know that that made things difficult to wear the moms, because I had they both have different moms, so they they made it difficult for me to see them, rightfully so, right? But um so the old the oldest one, his mom was a little more lenient, you know. She still kind of didn't trust me with them, I guess, but like she never stopped me from seeing them.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Um, his mom, you know, made it her business to make sure that I wasn't around him. And uh, so that was that was challenging. And and you know, that was what kept me in the cycle. Like, I'd be like, well, man, I I can't see my kid, so I'm just gonna keep getting high. But really we're gonna be able to do it. You find excuses like I think it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Like you don't use actual like logic that makes sense. Right. You know what I mean? If one thing doesn't go your way, it's like, well, that's why I just keep getting high. Yep. You know, I mean, like you're looking for that reason, so you know it doesn't matter. You could have all of these things going on for you, you know, that are good. And it's like, well, that one thing's not working my way, so might as well go get back to the streets, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

And that's the whole reason that I was away from them to begin with, you know, because I was getting high. That's why the mom wouldn't let me see them. But I'm gonna keep getting high because she won't let me see them.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

So it's crazy. That is crazy. So, so um, so your relationship with him after the fact, as he got so how old is he now? He's 16 now. He's 16. So, what was it like, you know, 10, 12, 14, 15 years old? What was your y'all's relationship like?

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Uh, so up until nine weeks ago, uh, you know, I haven't been it, I like it was completely separated. Um, from the time I went on the run to North Carolina, like I I couldn't even fight for visitation because I was on the run. So I I m it's crazy. I moved down to North Carolina, and the moment I moved down there, like I sold my house, everything I had, whatever I fit in a U-Haul, and we went there. Soon as I get there, he calls me out of nowhere. He's like, Hey dad, would you come to Donuts with dad for me at my school to, you know, in a couple days? And I'm thinking, how the heck am I gonna get there? Right? Like I ain't got no money, I just moved to North Carolina. So I had this family heirloom that was in my family. It was a 1970 Honda Trailbike, like original was my dad's when he was a kid. And you know, them things are worth between three grand and five grand, and I sold it on offer up for $400 so I could get enough gas money to drive back up to Ohio, get a hotel room for the night, go to his donuts with them, and then drive back. And that that was it, and that was the last time that I saw him until I got out of prison. So so it was the two years I was on the run. And then when I when I got out of prison, that's the first thing I did. After I got married, I marched my butt to the courthouse, filed for visitation. I had to jump through all these hoops, you know. Again, rightfully so. Like, I knew I was changed, I knew I was transformed, but his mom didn't, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 8:35

And I think that's one of the things I I've talked with some of our guys about sometimes, is they'll be like, Well, you know, I'm doing good now, and she won't let me see the kids. And it's kind of one of those things, like if I um can have a real conversation, you've done all of these things that make you not safe to be around, right? So, you know, from a logical standpoint, like you're mad at her because she she may, and some some people are not reasonable, but a lot of times, like a lot of times what happens is you've done so much stuff, and you're not safe for a kid to be around, and they have gone into protection mode, and then you come back, and and you know what, if you're doing good, this actually what I'm saying should be encouraging, but it's you come back into everybody's life, like, hey, I've changed, and a lot of times we've done that 75 times already, um, and yes, you you genuinely might have changed, but some of the people that you know that they they have been taking care of these children, that these situations, they're like, Well, hold on a second, yeah, and then we get offended, like, I'm doing good, I'm doing good. Do the things like you know, pay your dads that are getting sober, pay your support. Yep. Don't don't complain, give it some time, keep praying. I promise you. I went to when uh I when I first was trying to figure out get in um visitations with my daughters, which was uh this is obviously years ago. I went to court, I was working at the factory, I was making $9.10 an hour, and I had to go up there to get, you know, I would that they had called me up there to do the um, you know, figure out the child support for my two daughters and arrears. I'm making nine dollars and ten cents an hour, and I went up there and the number that they threw out there that I was about to be paying hurt my soul. I mean, it stung, but you know what? I didn't say anything about it on record because I had told myself I'm never gonna be on record complaining about taking and helping take care of those two girls. And I mean, my drive home was rough because it was like I don't know how I'm gonna even do this. But you know, I kept praying, and it never like I, you know, obviously there were some things I had to sacrifice, but I'm so glad, like I can look back, and that's the thing with a lot of times we do a lot of bad stuff, and then we get into recovery, and people are like, Oh, you have to be selfish. Well, there's some truth to that, but we've been selfish. You get what I'm saying? So now it's like, actually, in my opinion, if you're gonna be recovered, is what I am, you know, and but if you're gonna if you're gonna be recovered and if you're gonna be free and you're gonna give your life to Jesus, you actually start to serve and my freedom in my day-to-day, and my in the stuff with my daughters and everything, there was two things that I really really had to do. Forgive quickly, pray quickly. You know what I mean? And and those two things really helped me, but also just own my stuff. Oh, it's not my fault, it's my fault now. It's it's that mentality of you can call it whatever you want, but I'm the man. I was just talking to Remy, she's my oldest the other day, and some stuff is going on, you know, cars, all this stuff, and I'm like hemorrhaging money. And me and her were having a conversation, and I said, the difference is I'm just gonna, it's gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure it out, you know, and we get to a place like where I'm gonna figure it out. Am I, you know, may I I might be cussing, whispering over here, but I'm gonna figure it out. And I and I've had that mentality, but I think so many times we get in we get people into, oh, you know, you have to, you gotta do what's best for you. Well, what I need to do is what like the Bible guides me to do, right? And some of that is service work. The people that I see pouring back, you know, when they're starting to find freedom and starting to get away from that lifestyle, those are the ones I've seen have long-term um recovery success. I'm not saying you can't have it another way because I know somebody's probably out there watching, like, well, but you know what I mean? Well, but what I'm saying is I can tell you what worked for me, and I can tell you that what worked for the brothers around me. And um, and I think when it comes to the kids, like I said, with that support thing, but you know what? And then I would show up sometimes and I wouldn't even get to see them. You know what I did? I stood on that porch, right? I didn't make a scene or anything like that. I'm gonna be able to say that I was here. They're never gonna be able to say that I wasn't here, they're never gonna be able to say that I didn't cover. I don't care if I pay support and their mom is buying new J's for her boyfriend. I paid, I mean, I do care, but you know, I I paid what I was supposed to pay. I'm not gonna make I'm not gonna make excuses. When we come out of that life full of excuses and blaming everybody, you know, I think the most I think the most difficult personality to deal with is a guy that plays victim with everything everything that happens.

SPEAKER_03 14:00

100%. Can I share what happened with my uh son's?

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah, let's continue. I wanted to touch on your the situation with your son because of the restoration. So let's get back into that. I'm sorry, I wouldn't be here. No, no worries.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

No worries. So he he uh, you know, when I got out of prison, like I said, that's the first thing that I did was go to the courthouse, filed for visitation, ended up getting it. Um, but I was in North Carolina still at the time. Like I I had moved my family down there. So after I got to the city. And he's in Ohio's in Ohio.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

So how long are you talking to drive? What is that about eight to eight hours?

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Eight-hour drive, yeah. So I had the court ordered that I go to this place called Common Ground, which is like a a supervised visitation place. And I'm like, okay, cool, whatever, I get to see him, right? So I I hadn't seen him in five years. The his brothers haven't seen him, so we get to go visit him at this place. I had to drive eight hours. I so I had to take Friday off of work, Monday off of work. So I have a a day to drive back and forth. So I did that every month. But before I could even do that, I had to go to a place that that I had to find that would do a toenail drug test. And um a toenail drug test. Yeah. Yep. So it was crazy because the judge ordered a hair follicle. And I did that first, and then my baby's mom was like, well, now that he he he passed it, now he's just gonna go get high. So I'm like, okay, right, cool, I get it, right? Like you said, he ain't making excuses. Yeah, I created that chaos, right? So toenail drug test. Actually, I would have to drive into South Carolina.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

So what do they do? Clip your toenail and send it off to the every every month, bro.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

I had to I had to let my toenail.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Every one? All they do? All ten. They clip all your toenails.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

So every month I had to let my toenails grow, and I go to this, this, this like uh lab, and and I put my foot up on the lady's lap, and she would cut every one of my toenails on both feet. They'd put them into like this little piece of foil, fold it up, mail them out, and then when the results came back, then they would send them to my judge and I could go visit my son. So I would do that, then I would drive eight hours, take two days off of work, pay $250 to visit him for two hours. Right? And I did that for a few months, and then it got a little better. Then I was able to take him for eight hours, we could go do something, and then I'd have to bring him back. Then it got a little better after that. I got to keep him overnight, but we'd we'd stay at my mom's house in in you know, in Ohio. And then I got to take him on a little vacation. Um, we went Cedar Point or whatever. Then, you know, he would the judge was like, okay, they can have FaceTime calls. You know, he's able to play Xbox online with his brothers, right? Like, because his mom wouldn't let him have any of that stuff, right? She wouldn't give him my phone number, she wouldn't let she blocked, you know, them on Xbox, all that, all that stuff. So the judge was like, no, we're gonna do this. So so we started doing that. And let me tell you, my like my son was so excited, you know, like he he would call me like literally every five minutes once he got my phone number, to the point where I'm like, hey, you know, I'm at work, bro. I gotta call you back. But that I just want to give you an example of like how much he wanted to talk to me, right? So did that. Then my lawyer was like, listen, if you move back to Ohio, it's gonna be a lot easier for me to get you standard order visitation versus allowing her letting him go to North Carolina to visit you.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Which is I think that's also understandable. Like when she's been with him that long to send, you know, for to let your kid go out of state. I mean, that's even if you trust the people, it's you know, that's challenging. Like with my girls, I wouldn't necessarily like it would be, you know, they're gonna be leaving. And I think out of state visitations are a lot longer, you know, yeah, they can get it maybe a month out of the summer or something like that, or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

But so I'm like, okay, so in the meantime, like we'll we could talk about this later, but I felt the Lord calling me back to Ohio, and I thought it was because of my kids, which had something to do with it, but God, you know, was was gonna plan a church in my living room. That's how our church started. I had no idea. Um, so anyway, we me and my wife we come up with this plan, we started praying about it, and we made a plan. Okay, when when work dies down in the winter, we'll move back to Ohio. I'll get back in the union, and you know, we'll be good. So we we ended up buying a house, uh, sight unseen. Like it was it was crazy, like all God. And um we buy this house. I had my last court date in October, like the first or second week of October. We moved, we got the keys to our house the last week of September. So I'm going now, nobody knows that I moved back yet. Like I didn't tell him, I didn't tell his mom. So soon as she found out that I did move back, my son stopped calling me. He stopped answering the phone. Uh he he stopped playing Xbox with his brothers, like all the all this thing started happening. So we go to court, he comes to court and tells the judge that he don't want to see me anymore. And I'm like, what the heck is going on? You know, like it it just sent me through a through a loop. And they ordered me to, you know, pay in child support, like I as soon as I got out, I'm paying child support, like you said. I don't even know how much I gotta pay. All I know is I'm about 20 grand in the rears, and and I don't know how much, but I'm just paying whatever I can. Just every week I get paid, I'm putting something on it. And so they ended up giving me, you know, what I had to pay. And then the judge is like, well, I'm not gonna sever your relationship. You can see them for three hours once a month. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? Yeah, and then wanted me to go to counseling. Like, I was trying to go to counseling with them from the very beginning when we started going to court. Like, hey, let's let's do this the right way. Let's let's go, you know. I'm sure he's got a lot of questions. I got a lot of questions that you know, his family dynamics are different than ours. You know, he's a only child over there. I got four other kids at my house. So it's like, and they wouldn't let us do it. But then after they closed the court case, then they ordered that we go to counseling. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me, right? So, you know, we went, I didn't want to go, he didn't want to go. He's like 12 at the time now. I'm like, I don't blame him. He's a 12-year-old, I wouldn't want to go to counseling either. So we do that, and I I don't see him. But the Lord was working on me like through the whole thing. Like, I'm like, how you want me to pay child support for a kid I don't even get to see? And the Lord's like, it's your son, ain't it? I'm like, dang, yeah. Right? So paying it, paying my child support, and I'm just praying, you know, praying through it. And uh, you know, he's he's even even through the counseling. Like I went in there, like I wanted to go to a Christian counselor, and the court was like, No, we want something that's gonna work. You know, so so I'm like, okay, and then I had to remember like who who I'm dealing with, you know, that like that's how the Lord showed me that verse that we were talking about the other day about greater is he who's in me than he who's of the world. Like I had to remember who I was up against. You know what I'm saying? Like, and God's always showed me like we're his church and their world, right? So I'm coming to an understanding of things and and I'm I'm praying, I'm trusting the Lord. Then, you know, then I went through a season where I'm like, okay, I trust God, He's gonna do what He's gonna do. So I'm just gonna back off and let Him do what He does. And then I stopped praying for my situation for a while. And and God checked me, He's like, Don't don't you ever stop praying for your situation. So, you know, it came to the point where. I'm like, you know what? I love my son. Right? Like, God, God showed me this too. Because I would, when I did get a chance to talk to him, I'd be like, hey, I love, you know, we'd hang up, I'd be like, I love you. And he'd be like, okay, bye. And I'd be like, yo, I said I love you. And and he wouldn't wouldn't say it back. And and God's like, so do you love him, or are you only saying you love him because you want to hear him say it back?

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Hold on. I think that's I think that's like something I really want to hang my hat on. And because this transcends just not just like parental relationships and all of that stuff, but so many times, you know, I think um, you know, love is patient, love is kind, like all the things that the Bible says that love is, yeah. So many times people will get whether it's in whatever the relationship is, it's intimate marriage, boyfriend, girlfriend, dating, kids, parents. A lot of times people we like we're motivated to do something, and we don't see it or like our hearts need adjusted because it's like, hey, I love you, bro. Hey, I'm gonna give you a t-shirt, yeah, right? And then I I give you a t-shirt, and I'm like, he never gave me a t-shirt back. But what I give, you know, so what really that's not love, it's an exchange. It's it's me bringing some sort of currency and wanting some kind of currency back from you instead of, and that's one of the things I think, especially inside of the kingdom, we get very, especially with social media and evangelism and network, all of this stuff, it's like so many times, so many times I hear it, I've done it, you know what I mean? So I'm not like preaching at like people, but so many times it's like, hey, I think you look nice today. And the and they receive it, but they don't tell me that back. And I'm like, that's bogus. You know what I'm saying? I think I look nice today. They didn't tell me, they must think I'm ugly. And if my head starts to play with it, I have a spirit of offense starting to grow to where it's like, I'll have a bitterness towards you because I said I liked your hat. And he never told me he liked my hat back. Uh, you know, I gave you this, but you never gave me that back, you know? And um, and and and I just like we keep record of some of the the the weirdest things, you know, and and and not to say that's weird, but you know, telling one of your kids you love them, and then you get mad because like they're not telling me that back. And it's wounds, probably I'm gonna guess, like, as we get into this, it's just a it's a it's a place of like hurt already, like you've done all this stuff, so it's understandable. But if you're listening or watching, I want you to pay attention the next time you pick somebody you love up, something from the gas station, or you do something for somebody on the street, and then you find yourself getting irritated because I told my girlfriend that she was pretty, and then I sent her a gym pick, and she didn't say that I was you know puffed up or whatever it is. Uh, and then you you're literally an argument starting in your head, and literally it's just in your head, like it's it's in your head. There's no logic to it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

So I think it goes to with you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Um, because I mean, even as a believer, even as a Christian, we still have the tendency because we're human to go back to our old way of thinking. And I'll just share something that happened to me the other day. Like, you know, I was I was doing these deliveries, and uh, I was at the stars at Target, and it was like one of our preferred members that that were like their favorite delivery person or whatever, right? And they were like, I get out to the car, and now this this guy he tips well, right? Like he and so we weren't even, I wasn't even working that night, but it came by, hey, you have a preferred member order, and I I talked my wife into I'm like, hey, let's just go do this. We had the kids with us. I'm like, this guy tips good, you know that, right? So we were at Target. I go in real quick. She stayed in the car. I come out, I get out to the parking lot, and he there was a message from him. He's like, hey, can you add something to my order? And I'm like, oh man, I just saw this. And he's like, Oh, it's okay. I was like, but you know what? I'm like, I'm willing to go back in and buy it for you. And he's like, Oh, no, no, only if you're still in the parking lot. I'm like, yeah, I am. I'm like, you know, what did you need? Now I would, once the order's processed, you can't add nothing, right? So I would have to pay for it out of my own pocket. And uh he's like, I just need some double-A batteries. I'm like, oh, cool, right? Go in. I'm like, you want four, eight? He's like, oh no, something bigger, like 20. I'm like, okay, they got a 16 pack, it's like 20 bucks. He's like, perfect. So I put them on my credit card. Now, now, like I wanted to do that automatically from my heart. You know what I'm saying? Like, right? Not keeping record like you're talking about. I just I just wanted to do that for him. And then once I did it, then I'm like, oh, now he's really gonna tip me well, right? And my mind immediately started to go back to my old way of thinking and thinking like the world, right? Give something to get something, right? So I'm like, oh, dang, okay. So we take it to him, drop it off, waited that night, no tip came through. Like, not even, not even to pay me for the battery, but he didn't pay me back, or he didn't tip me. So for the next three days, I found myself. Every time I woke up in the morning, I checked my phone. The first thing, man, did he tip me yet? Did he tip me yet? Nothing, nothing, nothing. And then the Lord dealt with me on it, and he's like, I thought you did this out of the kindness of your heart. I thought you did this because you wanted to do it. And I'm like, dang, you know, so I had to repent of that and think like that's my old way of thinking. Like I did it to get something instead of just doing it for him. You know what I'm saying? So after after the Lord dealt with me on it and I did repent, I mean, he ended up tipping me. It came through like three days later, and didn't even pay me for the batteries, but I didn't care at that point. Like, I that's not why I did it. You know what I'm saying? Even though I got sucked back into that.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

So it it I forgot what why we started talking about.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Well, we were talking, we were talking about the um you telling your son that you love amen. Even though I said, I love you. And he didn't respond.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

That's you know, again, to go to the different dynamics, like that's how me and the other boys are. Like we're we love each other, right? We we text each other, we I kiss him goodnight every night, we pray with him, hey, I love you, good night, hey dad, I love you. And and and I think at his house, he's by himself a lot, or was by himself a lot, you know what I'm saying? And he didn't he didn't have that correspondence over there like that. You know what I'm saying? So, but that's something that that counseling taught me was expectations. And, you know, I went in there kicking and screaming like I didn't want to go, but I actually learned something from it because I was willing to listen, you know. So I learned like, hey, my house is chaotic. I got four other boys, three dogs, you know, there's always something going on. And at his house, he lives in this huge mansion, right? He's always in his room by himself, and it's quiet.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

You know, so he just has a whole different setup.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

It's a whole different setup, you know what I'm saying? And he wanted to spend time with just me, but I'm like, hey, like you got four other brothers over here that that share me with, you know. You they gotta you guys have all got to share my like we do things as a unit over here, but I had to come to that understanding that where he lived, it's not like that. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 29:48

And every personality is different, like with with my daughters are different, and they see that one-on-one time differently. Yeah, you know what I mean? So sometimes like being in bigger groups is good with maybe one of them, but the other one prefers going to get coffee just one-on-one. Yeah, you know. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

So you you so you want to hear the the news where we're at now? I do. It better be good news. Oh man, it's fire, bro. So, okay, so here so all this time goes by. I start praying again for my situation. And uh just trusting the Lord. And and you know, my wife would even like I don't know how you do it. Like, I I don't know how you remain so strong. And, you know, the only answer is Jesus, you know what I'm saying? Like, I trust him for real. Like, it's not like my faith, the Lord has has strengthened my faith, built my faith to where like I like everyone says they have faith until it's time to have faith, right? But I really trust the Lord. Like I I he time and time again, he's he showed me like you can trust me, right? So continue to pray. It's it's now we're going on eight years, right? The only times I would see him was at his basketball games. Like I would go, like I would go to his basketball. Now he lives about 45 minutes away from me, and I would go to every basketball game, and you know, I'd have to go through the stuff of you know, seeing him run up to the stepdad, you know what I'm saying, after the game, and and hug them and kiss them before he would even come over and talk to us. Like I endured all that, you know what I'm saying? But I but I wasn't doing it for that anymore. I was doing it because I l I really love my son. And and even though he didn't want to be with me, I don't even know if he didn't want to be with me. I I don't know still to this day if if it was because it was a picture painted of me, or if he had resentment, or both of those things, or it was influenced completely by his mom. Like I don't know any of that stuff. But those are all the things, all the unanswered questions that I had in my head, those are all the things that that I think about, you know, and it's easy for people will gas you up too. Oh, well, you know it's his mom doing this, or or you know it's this or that, you know, and and it's it's easy to jump on that that train when when people are gassing you up with that stuff. So but I but I continue to trust the Lord. I tried to block that stuff out, and then I would go to his games, I'd see him, and even though he didn't want to see me, I knew that he could one day when he would grow up, you know, he would he could never say my dad didn't try, my dad wasn't there. Even though I I might have treated him like crap or whatever, he still loved me, right? And and in in his adolescence, in the immaturity, he might have not ever even thought about that. But one day he might, you know what I'm saying? So I knew I did everything that I could do in with what I had. So I did that. And then my prayer started to change. And I started to pray, Lord, send somebody into his life that he can receive from. You know, because I don't, I don't, I don't get a chance to minister to him. I don't get a chance to raise him in the ways of the Lord, like the other kids, let alone even be his dad. Like my our relationship consists of me going to his basketball games. So I I pray in this prayer, Lord, send somebody into his life. Fast forward to about I don't know, four months ago. He he started following our church house Instagram page. And I'm like, dang, like he wouldn't friend, like I sent him a friend request years ago, right? He didn't he didn't accept mine, but he started following the church page, and I'm thinking, eh, that's weird, right? And and then he started liking my sermon reels, and he started reposting them, hardening them.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Oh, he started reposting, that's a right, and then it hit me one day, and I'm like, oh my god, you gave me the opportunity to minister to my son.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

You sent me into his life, and it's like it just right, and I was good with that. I was so good with that. And now it's gonna get deep. So over over all this time, the stepdad is is very wealthy, right? He's a doctor. His mom, his mom does well for herself too. And uh, you know, they tried to buy him off of me a couple times. You know, they oh well, forgive all your past through child support. You just sign over your rights and let me adopt him. And I'm like, heck no, that's my son. I ain't doing that, da da da da, you know, all the stuff. And then the Lord even showed me, you know, through the scripture in Philippians, um, that the Lord gave up his rights, all of his rights to come down to be, you know, die or death of a criminal on the cross. And and people will gas you up, oh, that's your son, you need to go fight for him. You got rights, dad's got rights, da-da-da-da, all this. And I'm thinking, like, yeah, but Jesus gave up his rights. Like he loved us so much that he chose to die for us, right? Even the prodigal son, he knew what the son was gonna do before he did it and still gave him the inheritance and let him go do it. And it and it's like I had to come, if if I really wanted to love my son like Jesus, right? Then I had to do the same thing. And so I'm like, okay, right? So that's what I did. And um, so anyway, this the stepdad reaches out to me one day and writes me an email, and uh he's like, hey, I I want to ask if you would be willing to consider something. And um like, sure, what's up? And he's like, I want, I want, I want you to to consider letting me adopt your son. And he goes on and on, and he's like, you know, this is what he wants, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm uh so I'm like, you know, in a tizzy for a few days trying to process this, and I'm going back and forth in my head, like, man, okay, who's to say I'm paying all this child support, I still owe 20 grand, and and I'm like, he's 16. If this is what he really wants, who's to say by the time he's 18 in two years, he's not gonna go just change his name anyway, right? And I'm like, the Lord, the Lord, he's God's son, even before he's mine, right? I'm I'm just the manager, I'm I'm his earthly father. And and I'm like, if okay, so I write the guy back and I'm like, why don't we go out for lunch? Like, I want to hear your heart, I want to, I want to share mine with you. Let's just go talk about this. And and he's like, okay, so me and this guy go out to lunch. Bro, we're there for two hours talking. First thing I ask him is, Why why do you want to adopt my son? And he's like, he's like, Well, I never wanted to have kids, ever. But when I met your son, he made me want to be a dad. And I'm like, man, that's awesome, bro. I'm like, you know, like, man, I'm so glad that he has someone in his life like you, especially through all the junk that I went through, right? So, like the Lord gave me the opportunity to really share my heart, going back to what we first started talking about. Like, people that are around me knew the life I lived and they know that I changed. They know Jesus in me now, right? But them on the outside, like they knew the life I used to live, but in their eyes, I'm still the same. You know, like you said, we did it 75 times over.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

I'm doing good now. Boom, then you're back. So I knew I understood the fact that that they that I had to prove myself, right? Cool, three years, five years, ten years, whatever. Like this is for real, it's not an act. So I'm willing to to still live the life that I'm living, regardless of who's watching. You know what I'm saying? Because I know God is. So anyway, we're talking, and um, you know, I'm asking them questions. Well, what happened? What if something ever happened to you? What if you died? What if his mom died? You know, all these things. And he had the whole thing laid out, bro. Like he he he gave this thought. So I was able to repent. I'm able to tell him how the Lord changed my life and all this stuff, and and and really confess things that I put his wife through, which is my baby's mom, that I never admitted to, to her or to the court or to whatever. So so he could see that something was different about me. And um talking, and I said, listen, I enjoyed this. I'm like, but I want to hear from my son. Like, if this is what he really wants, then then cool. Then I'll then I love him. I'm gonna be like the like the dad and the prodigal. I'm gonna let him go. Right? Here you are, son. This is your inheritance. Go ahead. One day you'll come to your senses, and guess what? I'm gonna be like the prodigal dad, and I'm gonna be there at the driveway waiting for you to come. Even if it's 50 years from now, I'm gonna be there with open arms. I don't care if your name's changed or or whatever. That's what you had to do. You had to go out and come to your own senses, just like we all did. And that's where my mind was at with it. So before we left that day, he's like, I want to tell you too, you know, Cameron, Cameron's really interested in the Bible. He's like, he's got a Bible, he reads it, and this. I'm like, really? Like this is and this is around the same time where I'm seeing him follow our Instagram page and all the stuff. So he's like, Yep, I'm I'll set up, you know, the point, you know, I'll go tell Cameron what we talked about, and then I'll I'll set up, you know, have him come visit you, and then you guys can talk and you can hear his heart. I'm like, okay, cool. So I waited, months go by, right? And uh don't hear from him. Nothing going on, right? Nothing going on. And then he messages me one day and say, hey, I'm sorry. Uh I'm sorry to leave you hanging for this long. He's like, but I just want to say, I think I read that wrong. You know, your son loves you. And I'm like, okay. Not even, I don't know, a week later, my son texts me, yo dad. Now this kid hasn't called me dad in eight years, right? He's like, yo, dad. He would even refer to his mom and his stepdad as his parents, like in front of me. Well, I'm like, you want to come over this weekend? I don't know. I have to ask my parents. And I'm like, what the heck? Who you I'm right here, bro. And so it's like he calls me yo dad, and he's like, Is your night out with Jesus this Friday? And I'm like, Yeah. And I'm like, why? You you you coming? He's like, I want to. And and so he starts asking me questions about it. And uh, well, tell me what what it entails. So, you know, I tell him everything about it, and then you know, closer to Friday, he's like, Well, uh, how much do people usually give for a donation for this? I'm like, I don't know, $20 to $40. Okay, I'm like, are you are you coming? I think my mom's gonna let me. And I'm like, really? Yep. So Friday pulls up and he's like, he's like, yeah, I'm coming. And I'm like, for real? I'm like, are you gonna you're gonna come to the house? Are you gonna meet us at the church? He's like, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come meet you at the house. He's like, and do you care if I spend the night too? And I'm like, what? I'm like, bro, you don't you don't ever have to ask that. The door's always open for you. And so he comes. This is on Good Friday. Talk about a Good Friday, right? So we hit the streets, boom, he comes. And and then everybody from the church are like, oh, we've been praying for you, you know, da-da-da-da-da, all those things, right? And they're like, Yeah, you coming to church Sunday. And he's like, Yeah, I want to. Another person, you coming to church, oh yeah, I want to. And then uh, so I, you know, I'm not making none, I'm just thinking he's just telling people what they want to hear, you know, for the sake of conversation. And uh somebody else, yeah, I'm gonna try. And then so I told him, I said, Hey man, you come to back to church, you just let me know. You know, you come back and spend the night again, or or just come in the morning. He's like, okay. So I'm on my way to the church Sunday morning for Resurrection Sunday, and uh I'm I'm pulling down the street, and he texts me, hey dad, I'm not gonna be able to come today. Uh my grandma's coming over for breakfast for Easter. So I'm like, hey, no, no worries, bro. Enjoy the time with your grandma and call me later. You know, I'm still on cloud nine because he was there on Friday. You know what I'm saying? And uh so I go, I go in the church, I go to the green room, you know, I'm in there praying, spending time with the Lord, and all of a sudden I stand up and turn around, and he's standing in the green room. Hug me. And then it dawned on me like his grandma passed away like five years ago, and I didn't even put that two and two together, like he just played me, but he came and surprised me. And bro, he's been in the front row of our service every single Sunday since Easter Sunday. Hasn't missed a week. There's been a day where he went to Pittsburgh uh to the Penguins game, which is Two hours away from Cleveland, spent the night, woke up at 7 a.m. on Sunday morning and drove to church to be there on time from Pittsburgh. He joined, he went through our growth path, which is our like our membership class. Um he joined a hangout, which are like our life groups, our small groups, and and he's invested, he's serving at the church. Like he's it's just it it brings me to Abraham and Isaac, right? Because God said, I need you to sacrifice your son. You know what I'm saying? And Abraham believed God, and he took him up on a mountain, put him on a on an altar to sacrifice him, and the Lord stopped it and said, No, I got something better. I just wanted to see if you believe me. And and that's what the Lord did to me. Like, I was gonna sacrifice my son and let this guy adopt him if that's really what he wanted to do. And and I went to go do that, and the Lord seen that that's what I was gonna do, and he stopped it. And then look, he gave me my son back, he gave his brothers, his brothers back, and and it's just been I I can't, I still, it's still incomprehensible, you know what I'm saying? Like it just, you know, and then well, not to change the subject, but then it goes to the prodigal brother. Because my oldest son, you know, the one that that's been with me the whole time, you know, he he he's he knew I was hurt, so he's looking at it like, well, you know, this dude, he just put you through all this stuff for all these years, and now he's back, like I, you know, you know, so I had to have that talk with him too.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

But then so I wasn't planning, I'm glad that we we dug into that because I wasn't planning on taking up, you know, most of the podcast on that. I want to touch on something though, also having the heart, okay. So what we have here is basically three parents, right? Like we have three parents, and none of them are bad, none of them are wrong, and I believe all three probably want what's best for this kid. So the fact that like you sit down with um, you know, what he would know as a stepdad, whatever the title is. Yeah, um, and that dude seems to like have a lot of love for him too, yeah, and to not like withhold or play with the situation and everybody just put their cards on the table. So I want to I want to go back on that. So now that we hear the end, you like you went through some stuff, but there wasn't, there's not a bad, there's not a villain in this story. You know, I mean it's a it's a bunch of people, it's a it's a handful of people that love you know this this child and want what's best for this child.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Um and I think it's fascinating that you and him sit down and like just put everything on the table and actually hashed it out. And I've told people before, like, we have big hearts. You get what I'm saying? You can love two people like your like your dad. You can love two people like your mom. I think sometimes we get, oh, but you know, the truth is like we have the capacity to love big, but what a beautiful story of like just restoration. And I know, you know, we'll probably have you on here in another year or two and touch on it more, but that's uh that's just a beautiful story. I thought it was gonna go totally different, Bob. I was like, he's about to have that they're about to go, they're going to war, right? But that's the thing is if you go into stuff with a good heart and actually try to hash stuff out, we don't have to have as much beef as we have. That's right. And we don't have to, not everybody is an enemy. They may not be on our side, but just because you're not on my side doesn't really make you my enemy. And maybe our common goal is the same. You know what I mean? Maybe like our love, or what you know, where we're trying to get to is the same, or where we're trying to get somebody to is the same. Sometimes we see it different. And I'm glad it ended like that. I like everybody in the story, Bob. You know what I'm saying? Nathan, I like everybody in the story. I thought that conversation was gonna go totally different, and we were gonna have, you know what I mean, hash out beef with people, but literally, like everybody, everybody literally set themselves aside. They had to. Yeah, they had to to get to that point, set themselves aside for you know, the care of this young man. So I have a question to ask you, but first, tell us real quick. So you ended up starting a house church in the process of this. So our timelines are going to be fuzzy, but I did want to touch on that because I think my favorite stories outside of I encountered Christ in my life changed, are family restoration. And I love this one because everybody's still involved. You didn't nobody had to get cut out of the picture, like so. He's just got a blanket of people that love him, and that's right. You know what I mean? So uh this one that warmed my heart.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

I feel a little tingly inside, and I wasn't I wasn't expecting it. You know, I was expect I I think I was expecting something totally different because we haven't really talked about it. I knew the I knew some of the restoration at the end point of that.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

But the Lord is pursuing the heart. Yes, right. So it's like while we're loving and trying to be in relationship and and good and bad with each other, we have a God that's like pursuing all of us, like all of our hearts in different ways.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

That's right, bro. And we as humans, even even as believers, we tend to change, try to change behavior instead of letting the Lord change our heart. And it's and it's a constant, like I know I tell Bob all the time, like when Jesus came, he came and changed up the game, and everything is about the heart. Everything, everything we do is about the heart.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

If you're going through a situation like this, keep praying. That's right. But also always what you what the one of the things that like because I was in tense situations similar, you know, not to that extent so many years, but the the one thing that really started to change me was Lord, examine my heart. That's right. Before I go convicting other people and you know, all of these things, and it goes back to the victim thing. Listen, I'm not coming at you when I say, you know, like playing the victim and stuff. You have I'm I know people have stuff happen to them, and you all you have actually been the victim. But when you look at Jesus looking down from the cross and saying, forgive them, and when you look at Stephen, we're gonna say this over and over again. We have these examples, Stephen getting stoned and looking at the people that were killing him and saying, Don't hold this, Father, don't hold this against them. Um, it makes you start to realize, like, let my heart, let make sure my heart's right, and then I can pray for the hearts of the other people. Uh, and and this the story probably doesn't happen this way if everybody just starts off and goes to war. So if you're battling this type of stuff, some of you are gonna have to go to war. You know what I mean? And I'm not gonna lie to you because I see it. Sometimes, you know, you're gonna go to it's a battle, but other times, sometimes it's about sitting down with somebody and figuring out, like, what do we have, you know, what's the common ground here? And we could get so much further in all walks of life. If it's a business enemy, if it's a neighbor you don't get along with, if it's the rival church because y'all are weird like that, you know, like well, how about people within the church?

SPEAKER_03 51:32

In inside of the church. That's right. They don't want to have a conversation in a healthy conflict, they get offended and they leave, go to a different church and go mess that one up too. You know what I'm saying? It's like we're called to do that as brothers and sisters, right? And you know, let alone with an enemy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

If you're watching this, I hope you had the same amount of praise God's praise God moments that I had. And I'm glad that I'm really glad because I felt like I felt led to just get into that. And I was like, I know there's so many other things that we could cover, but that is so important. That is so important, y'all. And to and knowing your Bible enough to know, okay, like this has been set out before me. We've been talking about that a lot with Bob, and uh uh you know, just like it's ever everything you need is in there. You just got to make sure you're applying it right to the situation and being led by the Holy Spirit, right? You know, because there's also things in there, like, you know, I mean, technically I could chop somebody's head off. If you, you know, out of context, we can do a lot of bad with it. But restoration is a beautiful thing, and it doesn't happen in your timing. It may not always happen in your timing, and it may be, it may feel exhausting, but if you keep your heart, you know, uh the what I try to do daily is like God examine my heart. Somebody get irritates me, and it happens, it happens daily, sometimes hourly. God examine my heart. Like, what is it that I see in them? Can I can I reach out to them, or do I just need to shut up? You know, and most of the time it's like just shut up. And um, so beautiful story. So tell everybody about tell everybody where your church is and about your church, and then I'm gonna ask you this question because I want I definitely want to plug the church up there. So you you want me you mentioned the house church group. Yeah, let's let's do let's let's talk about how how you got the house church, the name of the church, and then I'm gonna ask you this question.

SPEAKER_03 53:25

Okay, so yeah, we we started uh we planted a church in my living room uh the end of 21, right when we moved back from North Carolina. Um had no idea, you know, like I said earlier, I I thought the Lord was bringing me back for the sole purpose of of having a relationship with my kids. And and it was now, but then it was it was the church and uh you know, like even our house. Like I never thought I would be able to buy a house. And um, and I was okay with that. Like I was content with what the Lord gave me, you know. Five years before that moment, I was running from the police, living in hotels with my my wife and kids, and you know, all the things. So to the house, like my wife was like, hey, let's let's call the bank and see if if if where our credits are, you know, if we got to work on anything, maybe we could buy a house when we move back to Ohio. I'm like, yeah, okay, Benita, right? And uh I called the bank and and they're like, Yeah, you're approved. Go ahead and start looking. And I'm like, what the heck? So, you know, we're in North Carolina and we're looking for houses in Ohio. I can't come up there every day and look at houses. So my my mom was going to look at them on FaceTime, you know, and I'm like, you can't see a house on FaceTime. So that's the the house that we live in, completely ordained by God. Like we have uh uh an acre lot in the middle of the city, all kinds of property, um, beautiful home. Like it was just unbelievable how it played out. And then, you know, when we get there, uh my wife lost her job. She was working for the state of North Carolina, and when they found out that we moved out of state, they fired her instantly. Um, and and she worked remotely too. It was crazy, but anyway, she lost her job. Our whole house caught COVID, so I couldn't even go to my new job for like two months. And so we had a brand new house, a brand new car, no money. And I'm like, How the heck am I supposed to pay for this? And God was like, Well, how the heck you think you got it? You thought I brought you all the way back here to drop you on your head? So um so we go through that. Then we couldn't find a church. Like we went to church after church after church. Half of them I wanted to grab my family and run out the front door with them. And so I got very discouraged. Uh we we just stayed home and were watching our church from North Carolina online, and and then I felt the Lord leading me to go back and out and start, excuse me, go back out and start looking. And in the meantime, I'm like, hey, why don't we just start a Bible study? You know, at least we know we'll be reading the word, you know, all of this crap that we're finding. And around here, I'm like, you know, do these people even know what the Bible says? Like, that's how bad it was. And um, so we did. We would meet on Friday nights, and we would meet in homes, and you know, us and another couple, and there's like three of us, we would take turns, rotating every week, and whoever had, we would host a dinner, we'd read the Bible, and we'd pray together, and then we had a guy come along, join, you know, started leading us in worship. We would sing one line of a cappella back to each other in our living room. And so then, you know, we started realizing, hey, you know, like we're we're a church. So, you know, long story short, we transitioned into a full-blown house church uh at the beginning part of 22. And uh we'd have service right in my living room or out in my patio, and you know, we started with probably 10 or 15 people who most were my family and friends, and then it began to grow and grow and grow. And my front yard looked like a huge used car lot. Um, I couldn't fit any more people in my house. It flooded to like my living room from my living room to my dining room. There was people sitting on the on the side steps coming into the house. And my wife's like, listen, I need I need my house back. Like, I can't do this anymore. And so it it was it was it was crazy. Uh this family that started coming to they've been with us since we were a Bible study. They own it, they have a nonprofit daycare right down the street. And they're like, hey, we got we have this building, you know, we don't use it on Sundays. Here's the here's the key. And I'm like, wow, you know, and I sat on that for like six months, prayed about it to make sure that that's what the Lord really wanted, you know, like it sounded good, but I I had to make sure that's what he wanted. And and as we continue to grow and grow and grow, um like I I I always uh use an analogy like a woman having a baby, you know, like she gets big water breaks, then you know it's time. So like that's that's kind of like where we were at. So we moved into that building in 23 and we've been there ever since. And now we're about 150 people, church growing like crazy. And uh what you say, you want me to tell them where where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Yeah, so yeah, tell them where it's tell them where it's located in the name of it.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

So we're at 280 uh East 206 Street in Euclid, Ohio. Uh it's called the Church House of Living Stones. And you know, we started as the church house because we were the church in the house, you know, and that's how we kind of started the name. And then when we went to register with the state of Ohio, uh there was like 13 other entities that had church and house in the name. So they're like, you can't use it, you have to add something to it or whatever. So for another six months I prayed, like, what do I add to this, right? And then the day of the deadline of registering the name, the Lord the Lord gave it to me, which is 1 Peter 2, 4, and 5. You know, those that were rejected by Christ, um but accepted by Him. I mean rejected by the world, but accepted by Christ, right? To offer spiritual sacrifices pleasing to God. You two are like living stones. And it was like boom, like I knew that was it, right? And uh so that's how we got the name and we've uh we've been operating. Uh we we we actually planted as an assembly of God church, um, and I felt the Lord leading me in a different direction, so we we kind of broke away from that network, got our own nonprofit, our own 501, and we've been operating under our own nonprofit for the last two years. Uh, we're actually under the covering of Get Rap Church in Houston, Texas. Uh Pastor Juan Martinez. I don't know if any many of you guys know who he is, but he's been a blessing to my family and I, my wife.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

It's good to have that over that oversight and that covering. That's what we talk about a lot. Covering's important. Yep. So there you go, people. If you're trying to figure out what to do, pray. That's the special sauce. That's the special sauce of today is pray. Listen, you don't have to complicate, like, you don't have to complicate what works. Prayer works. And and praying and just taking the time to receive. Some of these processes take a long time. And even myself, a lot of times, it's like, bro, you know, I'm I'll get to doing something, but I ain't prayed about this. I have I have not prayed about this yet. Rewind the process and go back. Pray and repent. You know, if I can, if I could put two words, if I could put two words down for you to make sure that you're doing on a regular basis, it's pray and repent. And read the Bible. I'm gonna keep going. It'll just turn into a whole call of the pocket. Read your Bible, pray, repent, and be led by the Spirit, get some accountability, get you some brothers, and get discipled. Amen. So before we close out, we have started to ask this question, and you are in the hot seat. If you could have a cup of coffee and conversation with anybody in the Bible, but you can't say Jesus, who are you going with?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

I could think of two. Are we are we allowed to have a group chat?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:42

I think we'll just I think I think we gotta just go with one.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:46

We gotta go with one?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

Yeah, we have to go with one, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

All right, so the two that I would say would be Solomon and Paul. And the reason that I I choose either one of them is because of how humble they were. And you know, Solomon had uh the opportunity to receive anything. The Lord said, You just ask me, I'll give it to you. And he and he asked for wisdom. And and it's not that to so he could be the wisest person in the world, but so he could f feed his people, you know what I mean? That he could give away what was given to him. And then, you know, Paul almost one and the same. And Paul would be my final answer, I think. Um because and and I know that might be cliche, and I know everybody might say Paul, but Paul was Paul was a murderer, Paul was a guy that lived a life, you know, that that we all lived in society, people knew what he was, and yet God used him. And not that there's not other people in the Bible, right? Because God used everybody, it was a mess, but but Paul. You know what I'm saying? And so it is it's opposite that. So then, like I tell the guys at the prison this all the time, why do you think God used him? Because they knew the life he lived, and now he's preaching the very gospel that he persecuted. So how believable is that in your life, in recovery, right? Whatever you've done, the people in your life know the life you live. So when you're completely transformed and now you're preaching Jesus, how much weight does that carry, right? So Paul taking up to the third heaven and giving the revelation of Jesus Christ for the church, I think that would be who I would sit down with because that's direct directly from God. You know what I'm saying? Like not that everybody else wasn't, like God would pour out his Holy Spirit on whoever he needed to give a message or or whatever, but but Paul actually was face to face with the Lord, right? That's another reason that he's considered an apostle because he's seen the risen Jesus. And and to just sit there and just pick his brain and talk to him. And you know, I know people put memes and stuff all over Facebook and and social media. If Paul wrote a letter to the American church, you know, this is what it we would be getting tore up, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

We probably would. We sure would. That would be my concern with Paul. Yeah, I love Paul, and I can understand. I think I think if I was to like the longest conversation I would probably have, it would be David and Paul. You know, I think I could literally probably like sit there with coffee for six hours with those two just because there's so many layers to Paul you can't even get into. But I would be so nervous because like sitting down with Paul, like could you imagine like they pour your coffee and you start to talk and he's like, hold on. Yeah, and he starts to write something down to you. It's like I don't want that, you know, dear John. And you know, I mean, here he goes with uh, you know, I write this with love. However, uh, you got work to do. You got some work to do. Yeah, I think uh Paul would just be fascinating. I I there's so many, there's so many snippets of his life that should bring us humility. Like when somebody says, you know, in America, they're like, oh, you know, pray for those that persecute you. And it's like the you know, persecute, there's levels to persecution. I don't care what anybody says. There's the Middle East, what what they have to deal with, there's the persecution that Paul had to deal with, and then there's somebody calling me a fake Christian. You know what I'm saying? It's like not the same, right? So what Paul dealt with, and me and Zach have talked about it because Zach has a little message that he does about like when they were in prison and you know they were praising God, and they weren't in prison like we know prison. There was sewage down there. They weren't cleaning it up. Underground. Underground, everybody's pee, everything. Like that's what they were sitting chained to the floor. Infection. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like, I would be down there freaking out. The smell, the infection, and they were praising God. And you can't think of a more disgusting situation to be in. Our minds cannot think of a more disgusting situation. Because as bad as you think it is, it was worse. It had to be because I've never seen anything like it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:27

And we're over here like you believe they feed us this stuff in prison.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:34

He praised God, then prison doors opened. Yeah. And the fact that everywhere he went, and that's with all of the apostles and disciples of everywhere he went, somebody was going to encounter the the love and the truth, the truth and love of Jesus. Everywhere. Prison guards getting, you know, I mean, getting saved. At the at the at the when and when they do that, they could die. So you see something in this person that is so like is so moving. Right? And what it is, people, it's not Paul. That's right. What you see in him is the love of Christ, the Holy Spirit. That's what you see in him, to where you're like, yes, he he's covered in poop and pee. He's, you know, he's been beaten so many times. He's not gonna live till old age. And I know that if I accept whatever it is he's doing, I'm gonna die too. But you know what? How do I become, you know, one of you? How do I become a Christian? That's something you carry. So, and I will close, I want to close with this, people. You can tell people the gospel all day long, you can tell people about Jesus all day long, right? And you should. And you should pray for people and all of those things. But I think what separates what we're talking about from a lot of like the base Christianity, and we love you all, so this isn't like a critique, is are you carrying the love of Christ? Are you showing the love of Christ? Are you is the is the Spirit of the Lord with you when you walk into a place? Those things are birthed in prayer and repentance and knowing your word. I can come up to you and tell you about Jesus all day long. And like when we we went to Tennessee, and it kind of fascinated us. I've only seen mountains a few times in my life, and no matter how much I no matter how good of a poet, I could be the best poet of all times, I can never explain to you guys what it was like to see the mountains until you explain it, until you see them for yourself. We need to start, we need to be the hands and feet of Jesus, but we need to carry what they were carrying, and that's that's how you have a true impact. I can pray for you. I did a video about this. I can pray for you, I can throw you a dollar, and I can go about my business if you have if you need something. Or I can look at you and you can tell that you were obscene. Like, you know, there were times in my life where I felt invisible, and just somebody looking at me like I was seen and and caring, just showing some level of care and the oil that drips off of them because I encountered very strong Christians, you know, even when I wasn't saved, and even when I felt invisible, and even when I was addicted. And it's there's something that you can't compare it to. And when we talk about Paul, that's one of the things I love is like people saw them. Now, what made what made them to where you know Peter and John walking down the street and people are like, hey, come here, I have a need. Because you can see it on them. Like they they are carrying something special, and it's the love of Jesus Christ. You can you can talk about it, you can regurgitate it, you can share it, and you should. But there's nothing like you carrying it. And when we say carrying it, it's in your heart. The word is stored in your heart. His love is stored in your heart. All of the, you know, all of these kind deeds, correction, because correction is the kindest thing I can do for you, right? Is like, hey, bro, if you go down that path, you're in a bad, you're in a bad place. It's stored up in our hearts, and so and and if we're operating correctly, people can see it because that's the oil that comes out.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

Yeah, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Praise God. And and bro, we could go, seriously, we can, I could just, we could keep talking.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

We have it we're going, we're headed over to Friday night service tonight, y'all, and it's gonna be really good. We're doing baptisms in the river. Um, the first time I'm ever gonna do that. Really? Yeah, because we have the tank, and we've we um when we do some of the outside stuff, we have the trough, but I've never like I've never done them in the river, and tonight's the night. I got my slides, I got my sorts, I got my snakes. And I got my heart listed. Yeah. Are there snakes out there for real? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:54

Uh huh. You lived here your whole life, you know.

unknown 1:10:57

I mean, maybe they wake up.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:01

Come on. I'm gonna do the snakes. Praise God.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:04

Hey, man, brother, uh, we're around each other a lot, so go check him out, Brian's Brian Zandela on um Facebook, Church of the Living Stone. On um, I follow him on Instagram and Facebook, but I get a lot of my stories and stuff on Instagram. Really good content. If you're in that Ohio area, go check them out. But listen, I just want to encourage you. Um, when you get off of this, there's probably some unforgiveness in your heart. You probably have beef with people. And I really encourage you after that story right there. You want the restoration, you and you want to be forgiven, you have got to forgive yourself. You have to forgive people yourself, and maybe forgive yourself. Amen. You got to carry that. So we love you guys. It has been such a blessing to have Brian on. We've got Rob uh Bob Springer in here from Felonies to Recovery. Nathan Mazellan is always doing our production. Zach is not with us today because he's printing t-shirts and um he just called. So I hope everything's okay. But we love y'all. Thanks for thanks for tuning in. Yeah, and this has been an absolute blessing. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode today. Make sure you subscribe to our channels and follow us and give us reviews on all of the platforms. If you really liked what you heard today, share it with somebody that you care about. Thank you. We love you.