Does Science Really Prove God? (Agnostic vs Christian) - ABS EP 13

Gerod Ware joins me for a respectful, high stakes talk about whether science, order, and human reasoning point to a creator or can be explained without God. We push on intelligent design, evolution, and Genesis while challenging the impulse to protect any belief system from hard questions. 
• equal scrutiny for Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and secular worldviews 
• agnosticism as an ongoing search rather than a fixed box 
• intelligent design claims based on order, complexity, and fine tuning 
• Big Bang questions about why anything exists at all 
• DNA and information as an argument about meaningful “code” 
• whether reason, emotion, and morality imply purpose 
• evolution as adaptation versus “new kinds” 
• deep time, human origins, and how to weigh scientific timelines 
• Genesis as literal history, symbolic language, or national origin story 
• ancient Near East creation stories and possible coexistence with Genesis 
I encourage everyone to do their own research. Look at the sources, make your own conclusions. Don't just form your opinion because Jeron said something or because I said something. Let this be motivation to dig deep and figure out what you believe. And like always, never stop learning.

Transcript

Order, Complexity, And Intelligent Design

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If we believe science, science leans towards some type of intelligent design. Even if they say it's the big bang theory, there's a level of order, complexity, and um I think it would depend on the scientist. Well, you're we're reasoning right here because we have the ability to say, like, hey, we need to come to a consensus or some understanding. We're reasoning. That's complex. It's not just some random thought. And if not, why are we even doing it?

SPEAKER_01 0:27

That's assuming there is a why, and assuming that we are created in like the image. So you don't think this could be um like evolutionary, like bi biological responses, like I need to maybe I should be nice to people, because that's how you maintain a community, and you need a community in order to stay safe.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

But somebody wants to come in and say, in the beginning, God created their heaven and earth. And then just go on to the next verse, and that's be all in all, and don't challenge me on it. Because if you challenge me, you're challenging my faith. And you're making me think beyond what I'm even willing to uh 100%. And I think that's what happens with religion.

Welcome And The Big Questions

SPEAKER_01 1:06

What's going on, and welcome to another episode of the Agnostic Bible study. I'm your host, Joe Teal, and today's gonna be a special Thursday episode. I have a guest. Shout out to Gerard Ware. He is the creator and host on the Floor is yours podcast. Be sure to go check that out. So today we start this off with him giving his reasons why he thinks other belief systems deserve the same amount of scrutiny that Christianity does. And that leads us into conversations about science, creation, evolution, philosophy, and of course, religion. Is there a God? If there is a God, is that God personal? Definitely some big questions and topics ahead of us. So without further ado, I hope you enjoyed the conversation I had with my friend Gerard Ware. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

What's going on? What's up, Joe Man? Hey, glad to be back here.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

We kind of had an exchange the other day on the internet. That's fun. Like, I like that type of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Some people look at it as like they argument. I'm like, no. It's not an argument, man. It's a respectful exchange. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

So I figured we could start and uh first of all, I'll just kind of let you maybe let you share like some of your concerns from like what you s what you were seeing from from me at that, like at that moment, maybe, or like, or is it a pattern or or what are you what are

Why All Worldviews Need Scrutiny

SPEAKER_01 2:25

you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, so it's really not you per se, as it is uh just a common disconnect with um different belief systems. And one being that most people wouldn't think, and forgive me if I'm mischaracterizing your your stance, but most people wouldn't you're agnostic more than atheists.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Right, yeah, which I I would say that I think that with my tiny little human head, I think I'm I may struggle more on these big cosmic um like processes. Like I don't think like not that I don't know for sure that I can't know, but like at this point with what I've researched and what I've learned, I haven't came to the conclusion. And so it's not that I'm done searching, but like I'm I'm still actively searching like every day, like like hard, like harder than most people, but um I don't uh at this point I don't know and haven't been convinced.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Okay, and that's fair. You know, and I think sometimes we try to put people in a box and say you're here or there, and it's not always the case, and it doesn't allow for your journey as you develop and try to figure out and learn more. I think um even with that though, I think the disconnect is that that deserves a level of scrutiny to a certain certain degree. And sometimes we'll focus on um and that was so the question was do you give other belief systems the same scrutiny? And what I've seen, and not necessarily you, the reason why I asked that is because people will present Christianity as it's the sole belief system that claims exclusivity. Like we are the one right religion and no other belief system, belief system.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Islam for sure is doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Islam, Hinduism, um or is Hinduism exclusive? Yeah, they got they have now it's different, but they do have some exclusive oh a couple of exclusive claims, but they're core and foundational to their beliefs. Right. So and everything you know. Do they have some more leeway and leniency and other things? Absolutely. But all belief systems have at least one. And even a non-believer or agnostic or atheist, there are some worldviews that they have that should be given the same level of scrutiny. You know, like you have to in our first episode that we had on the um the Old Testament, I mean on the New Testament, when you came on my podcast, right? We we talked about, you know, some like, hey, let's ch talk about even is there a God or not a God? Like there has to be, in my mind, that level of scrutiny for people that don't believe are waiting to develop more understanding. Because there's some foundational things they're about, just from science.

Big Bang, Nothingness, And The Code

SPEAKER_00 5:20

If we believe science, science leans towards some type of intelligent design. Even if they say it's the big bang theory, there's a level of order, complexity, and um I think it would depend on the scientist. Well, well, I I think you will have to, if you unpack or challenge that science, he's gonna come to a robot, a hurdle that he can't.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Eventually you get it to you go far enough aback to say, like, what why is like even if it is something small, why did it turn into something?

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah, not just why didn't it turn into something? It's the complexity of it. Right. And it's the order, and it's the discipline. Like, it's not just that we have an earth. We have an earth that rotates and it has um an atmosphere and it preserves life, and there's order and like like detailed and uh complexity that says, like, you know what, if it was off by a miller meter of an inch, or you know, I know that ain't the right way to phrase it, but it wouldn't be able to not only expand.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Because technically we are expanding.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

But yes, but science has said that though.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

So that's been known, but they know enough about it to know like there was a time that there was nothing. Right. And it came into something. So that there was a time there was no um no matter, no space, and no time. So how did all of that come into existence? This is science saying that. That there was a time that there was no I don't know how you'd prove that there was no matter. Well, so if you think that there if it's expanding, it was a time that everything was here.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yeah, that'd be matter though. Huh? Wouldn't that be matter though, the first little pen?

SPEAKER_00 6:59

It came into existence. Right. So that's what science will say. That even atheists, non-believers say like there was a time that there was nothing and then it came into something. So how did that come into for instance, if you put um you know, our DNA and our genes and all that, like there's like this complex code that makes up our being. So obviously, if you saw a piece of paper, well, here's a piece of paper here, and it says love more, you know that that just then happened to show up with some letters fell out of the sky and filled in order and created this this um message. Yeah, like a monkey on a typewriter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, your guys talked about that on one of your um posts one time.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Said if a nut monkey types enough, oh yeah, that is it's gonna eventually come with a message, which could be true, but what's the likelihood of that? And then how complex is that message? Is that monkey just saying me? Yeah. Or is he saying I can eat and I want something to eat? And you know, not just that, starting family feelings, emotions, reasoning, all that stuff that comes about. So when we see that level of complexity, right, we know that somebody put that message there.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah, but I'm not opposed to that.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah. So who is that somebody? I think that's where me and you separate. But maybe we don't, because here's the thing we might call it different things, but I'm just saying that there is a supreme being that created that now. Some people might say it's Jesus, some people may say it's Elohim, some people may say it's Baal. But I think the commonality is that somebody out that was with supreme ability,

Reasoning, Meaning, And Moral Instincts

SPEAKER_00 8:41

power, understanding, and that's personable, created all this. Because you're we're reasoning right here because we have the ability to say, like, hey, we need to come to a consensus or some understanding. We're reasoning. That's complex. It's not just some random thought. And if not, why are we even doing it? Well, that's assuming there is a why. That's assuming there is a why, and assuming that we are created in like the image, which would be So the fact that you even ask that, I think it demands a level where I have to admit at least that is because if I'm if I'm only assuming that it is, now I'm assuming that there's the possibility or that it is or it's not. That by itself, if it's not, or if it is, like that's so complex. It's not just some random thought. Now you're wanting and you're searching for truth and understanding. If there is no truth and understanding, what are you even doing? And why are you even doing it?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

I I mean that's I that's still assuming that that's what's supposed to happen. But why are we even having a conversation? Because what's interesting to us. But how why is it interesting? Because I think we we all are, I mean, obviously we're all searching, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

That's the personal that that was not there. This didn't we didn't just create a light switch that turns light on. There's thinking, there's feelings, there is emotions, and these are objective, observable things, right? So there's this supreme being didn't just create time, space, and matter. He created time, space, and matter in people that can think, love, hurt, harm, grow, improve, like, and even come to a consensus of right and wrong. So now my thing is if that's there, this has to be an a being that's intelligent because it's not just you doing that and I'm not doing that, right? Or I don't have the ability to, and you have the ability to. We all have the ability to, and we talk and have conversation with the expectation that we are understanding each other. Hey, what do you want to eat this evening? When I ask you that, you're not taking that that I'm asking you where do you want to go on vacation. You know I'm asking you what do you want to eat. Right. Like there's order and discipline in that. So if it was no order and discipline and it was just these random atoms jumping around doing what they want at any given time, we would have no understatement.

Evolution, New Kinds, And Deep Time

SPEAKER_01 11:02

So you don't think this could be um like evolutionary, like bi biological responses? Like I need to I need to get uh like maybe I should be nice to people because that's how you maintain a community, and you need a community in order to stay safe. Because you used to get ate by tigers and shit.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

If you were the exception versus the rule, then I could say yes. But that's the rule. We all are here honoring, we should be honoring, respecting, and dealing with each other, understanding like we do if we want to survive. And not only if we want to, we do want to survive.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

But I think people work against their survival instincts, or their survival instincts are not always as honed in as other people's too. But I think somebody outran a tiger faster than somebody else originally. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Of course. But I think all things considered though, right? That we're all shooting for the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

And that's we So do you you don't think there's evolution at all?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Yes, or do you think microevolution or like macro? I think uh, and even some scientists would say, like, yes, there are some things evolving, but there is no new kinds. So we're not evolving into a new type of creation. These things are already here. So you might have a bird whose wings change, they may grow, the color might change, their beak beak may grow or become shorter based off their environment, but there are no new kinds. So when it comes to evolution.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Okay, so what do we do about like the timelines and stuff, like stuff being like really old? You don't think they're as old as they say, or what you mean? Like age of earth or like different phases of humans? You don't think that?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

I believe that like Homo sapien or like uh I believe I mean the science is there. So to deny that I think would wouldn't be real. I think um I think that things happened.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

So you think like the supreme being, divine person, whatever, you know, God in the sky makes the not in the sky, man in the sky, yeah. You know what I mean? Like just to be a cliche as hell, but you know, the creator made us, made the earth what millions and billions of years ago? Or do you okay, you believe that, right? And then that that you follow that and and things evolve.

Genesis, Origin Stories, And Literalism

SPEAKER_00 13:10

I think what happens religion comes in and our desire to know and control the narrative restricts what we're willing to accept and even allow into the conversation, right? So it's like, what do you mean? So something other than Christianity like curses you, Joe.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Yeah. So what do you do with Genesis? Do you think that that's like Israel's way of like writing their origin story? Because a lot of that's what a lot of like historians think.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I don't think that it only relates to um Israel. I think Israel was.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

But I mean, like there was different, yeah, there was different ancient Near East cultures, right? Yeah. And they all had their stories. A Numa Elish is a creation story, you know, like But I don't think that they have to conflict. Okay, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. I mean they say different things, but they don't necessarily have to.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

But I think they may come to a um, yeah, I don't think they conflict. Now, the different don't mean that we um that that they can't coexist.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

So you think they're describing the they're what are they attempting to describe like the same event?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

I think it is based off our limited understanding and ability. I could be, I could get down with that. Yeah, but I think again, that we want to know so much and present as ego, especially in Western culture. Man, we want to be the be all end all know-all to all things. We can't remember. Especially in the Christian uh framework.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

And if we're honest with each other, yeah, because there's the Christian sect that believes that like Genesis is like literal, like that happened, how exactly how that happened. And then you just then I'm like, okay, then like then I can feel it be like a science versus like Genesis type situation.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

When I think science proved Genesis, and vice versa. Now, I think we try think about how Adam and Eve literal. I need to stop and repeat. I think Adam, I like that question right there. But at first, uh, I'll just put it this way creation is so complex. When you hear when I heard science explain the the universe form, you know, forming of the universe, the expansion of it, and how the inner workings of it, I'm just like, wow, like there is no way that that was happening chance, like there's too much. But somebody wants to come in and say, in the beginning, God create the heaven and earth, and then just go on to the next verse, and that's be all in all, and don't challenge me on it because if you challenge me, you're challenging my faith and you're making me think beyond what I'm even willing to um. Oh, 100%. I have a good one. And I think that's what happens with religion.

Closing Questions And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 15:36

All right, thanks again for hanging out with us on another episode of the Agnostic Bible study. Hopefully, I'll get the next part of this conversation out as fast as possible. But after part one, I hope you are left with some tough questions to think about. Is there a God? Does science prove or disprove that? Where does evolution fit in? What is the Genesis story trying to describe? Is it literal events, or is this a later nation attempting to describe their origins? Do all belief systems deserve equal scrutiny? These are all excellent questions that I hope you have to grapple with. But as always, I encourage everyone to do their own research. Look at the sources, make your own conclusions. Don't just form your opinion because Jeron said something or because I said something. Let this be motivation to dig deep and figure out what you believe. And like always, never stop learning. We will see y'all again next Tuesday. Let's go.