Agnostic Bible Study w/ Joe Teel

Birth Narrative Debate - Agnostic vs Christian - ABS EP 17

• Joe Teel • Season 1 • Episode 17

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0:00 | 39:20

The Christmas story gets preached like a single clean timeline, but the sources refuse to stay that simple. We pick up Part 2 of my conversation with Dr. Cole Yeldell and put the birth narrative under pressure: do Matthew and Luke contradict each other, or are they telling the same event with different aims, audiences, and theological priorities?

We go straight at the hardest historical puzzle: Herod the Great is widely dated to 4 BC, while the census of Quirinius is commonly tied to 6 AD. That looks like a ten-year gap baked into the nativity timeline, especially once you add Judas the Galilean’s revolt and Luke’s “worldwide” census language. From there we dig into translation and interpretation, including the Greek term protos, the question of multiple censuses, and what it would even take for something to count as a genuine contradiction under a serious doctrine of biblical inerrancy.

Then we zoom out to the story details people usually skip: why travel to Bethlehem at all, why bring Mary so late in pregnancy, how the magi and the star might fit historically, and why Matthew’s Egypt flight and Herod’s violence never show up in Luke’s tighter narrative. Along the way, we talk prophecy fulfillment, typology, and why the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke may be optimizing for different readers while still aiming to tell the truth.

Listen, share it with a friend who loves Bible debates, and then subscribe and leave a rating or review so more people can find the show. What’s the single detail in the birth stories you find hardest to reconcile?

Welcome And Debate Setup

SPEAKER_02

What's going on, and welcome to another episode of the Agnostic Bible study. I am your host, Joe Till, and today I'm dropping part two of my conversation with Dr. Cole Yeldil. This pretty much is a debate on the birth narrative. We tackle questions like do Matthew and Luke contradict? Is Luke's consensus historical? Who were the magi? Did the slaughter of the innocents in Matthew actually happen? When did King Herod die? All these and many more. And now we get back to the interview. I hope y'all enjoy part two of my conversation with Pastor Cole. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, I I definitely think it's something that I would, I would, I would try to stand for. I mean, certainly. I I'm not willing to bend necessarily on the inerrancy of scripture. I think a lot of the misunderstandings, supposed contradictions in scripture are often, often found in faulty interpretations and things that need to dive a little deeper, uh, perhaps explore the context and some of those things to kind of reconcile some of it. I mean, after all, we're reading a book written 2,000 years ago, different culture, Eastern culture, Jewish text, different languages that have been translated to us that we're trying to process. And as much as we try to do that in truth and without bias, we st we still have biases and read it with modern eyes. Exactly. And even

What Inerrancy Allows And Forbids

SPEAKER_00

when I try to do that my very best, you know, it's it's still hard. And so we have to recognize some of that, that sometimes there's just cultural differences and things that it just doesn't make sense. So okay.

SPEAKER_02

That seems like a great place to go into Yeah. Okay, so contradictions. I do have a question. Under your definition of inerrancy, what would it take for something to count as a genuine contradiction?

SPEAKER_00

Hmm. That's a good question. Um, I guess that they would just have to be uh I'm I'm in a revealed like exceptional error and and not um not necessarily, and and again, uh most Christian scholars are gonna are are gonna begin to kind of change and and have variation in their definition, but but I think it would have to be something as far as the truthfulness of of uh what scripture is trying to teach, like the meaning of its message.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe not locations and timing and stuff like that. Or do you think all that's locked in?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, and and I would say for the most part, I mean, you know, especially the New Testament letters and some of these things that are a little more modern, uh, man, a lot of those things have been, you know, heavily verified in many senses as far as locations and cities and that we support.

SPEAKER_02

Well, not necessarily locations, but like like they were here at this time, or when they left, they went this way, or did they go this way, stuff like that. If there's some type of deal where it seems like maybe it doesn't line up, does that affect your inerrancy or do you think that those are all misinterpretations?

SPEAKER_00

No, I I don't think, I mean, unless unless it was just shown to be like super valid and there's no way to reconcile those things. And I'm not talking about trying to bend over backwards in an extreme way to try to make it make sense. Right. Uh, but uh but a lot of times there are simplistic ways to view this, and you know, there's historical questions, but uh but yeah, I I think if there's a little deviation in some of those things, I I think it makes sense that some of the writers they were writing in different different messages for different audiences with a different purposes, and so they tended to emphasize different things. Uh, and that happens in you know numerous letters and and texts. And so some of it makes sense. Some of it you would expect that sort of deviation, you know, even within uh, you know, questioning, you know, eyewitnesses. I mean, you you've heard all this stuff, eyewitness accounts and and and that sort of thing. If if officers or investigators are doing that, I can't wait to talk about that. Not yet. They want, they they they're expecting to see some level of deviation between the people. And if there's not, it's often, you know, this made-up story where they're in agreement and trying to make a herbicide.

SPEAKER_02

But I think there's also a difference of like if two guys tell the officer two conflicting parts of the story, yeah, that does also do something to how genuine the officer would think it is. So it's like a double-edged sword almost. It's like you want it to be different, but they're like, wait a minute, I don't want to be that different.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I think it would just have to be proven, you know, without a doubt. And I'm just not sure that I'm convinced of a lot of the a lot of the supposed contradictions that are brought up that I think there's often ways to to reconcile them. And then, you know, one other thing that I would just mention, I guess, about inerrancy, there's often, and this is just a sidebar, but there's often another word, infallibility, that is brought up kind of in tandem with that. Is that separate? Should I have looked at that definition? Well, I I I want to say, I mean, infallibility is a little more of a theological term. And again, a lot of this deals with the origins of of Scripture, uh, but if it if it's from God and just essentially this idea that God is impossible to lie or to err. And so, and so a lot of it comes back to where you believe scripture truly comes from. And that's why, you know, it's such an important deal for for Christians that that we hold that scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. It was authored by men, but inspired, you know, through the Holy Spirit and dwelling, you know, the apostles and those given the gifts to to do that.

SPEAKER_02

So have you ever read a verse and thought, hmm, that might be a contradiction?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's uh there's a number of things uh that I feel like I've read that, you know, I I have to go and study and process a little bit, and and a few of them, I don't know if you want me to to know, but a few of them we're gonna talk about, I think, today.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, no, we'll get to if it's one I've mentioned already, we'll just we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_00

But like unless there was just one more. Yeah, there's like three or four that are popping up that are all stuff we're talking about today. Yeah. Um I mean, I think one of the most notable, and we can talk about this in a second, but I I think the first one I noticed, this is probably in junior higher high school, uh, was just Paul's conversion story and Emma retelling that where it seems a little different and between X, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because like does he go to Jerusalem or not? Does he go to Arabia for three years? What does he do in Arabia? Yeah. Uh it you know, and then sometimes the way Paul talks is not always the same as as as in X to me. And I think we can get into that later, possibly. Absolutely. But yeah, because that's a I know that's a that's a claim that I'll have to back up if I say it. But all right, I think we've got to the point where it's time to possibly to look at

Herod’s Death Versus Quirinius Census

SPEAKER_02

the birth story. So the birth story is fun to me. I've spent a lot of time in this. I think there's two major points that are very tough that were that where I had moments where I was like, oh well, I'm not sure about that. And uh I'm sure you have answers for them, but I'm sure that I will have uh my opinions on it too. So, all right, so the this one got me interested in a different way than normal. Uh a lot of times I'm looking, I'm searching, I'm reading these things, and and uh this time I was listening to Eusebius. A guy told me to go read Eusebius. So I listened to Eusebius, the whole thing, ecclesiastical history, dude from like the 300s, he writes what a lot of people call the first Christian history. And uh I get into I think it's like in the first chapter, it was quick. And uh he was like he he he mentions Herod and then he mentioned the census, and then he mentioned Judas a Galilean all at once, all in like one little deal. And I got to thinking, I was like, now I know roundabout where Herod died at. So I went and looked that up. Most people have Herod dying around 4 BC. Yeah, um, shout out to Pastor Jeff Sharif, he was on Zach Rabbit's show the other day, he said four BC. I was like, yes, okay. Yeah, I like that. So my people. So so then I so you know, by Josephus, by Roman records, it seems like um Herod the Great seems to die around 4 BC, right? Okay, yeah. And um then Eusebius mentions uh the census and he mentions the fallout of the census. And he says that the fallout of the census is this Judas the Galilean fellow gets upset and starts one of the big revolts against Rome. Yeah. And I'm thinking, I'm like, now wait a minute. Now I I did this side little quest one day where I was looking for people that would possibly be like Jesus, kind of that same type of maybe not architect, but that same type of dude, somebody that got a following, somebody that tried something, yeah, and Rome eventually dealt with. And so, you know, there's the Egyptian prophet that tried some stuff that's even mentioned in Acts. Yeah, there's Judas of Galilean, there's Jesus, there's the Apollonius, there's people that kind of get like similar deals. So I was like, well, I know this Judas, I know this Judas fella. And uh I know the year he died and the year he started his revolt. And I was like, okay, well, that's six AD. So I'm like, now we have a problem that the early church father dude that wrote the history has presented to me. Like this is from him. Like I didn't go search, like, show me contradictions in the birth narrative. Yeah, this is coming from the guy writing the history. So I'm like, okay, he's planted this fellow right here, has planted that census at 6 A. D. under Corinius, and he's also planted Jesus at before 4 BC, because Herod's trying to kill him already. And so that puts Jesus likely at somewhere between what, five, six BC? Yeah. And so now we have a 10-year gap, kind of like the 10-year gap where Archelaus rules. So Josephus says Archelaus rules, which is Herod's son. When Herod dies, they split in three different ways. You've got Archelaus, Antipas, and Philip. Yeah. Each get their own deal. And um once they get rid of Archelaus, it then becomes uh not a client kingdom anymore when Caesar gives Archelaus the boot, a exile him, and then it changes from a um a client kingdom to an actual Roman province. And that's when Corinius is brought in to do the census, and the census causes the revolt. And then we have Judas the Gallian dying in 6 AD. And so what do you think about that? That was pres that is what I found by, you know, and then I eventually looked into it and made all made sure I was right. But like that was the first time I caught that. I was like, damn, that's a 10-year gap that I can't explain. Yeah. So what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00

So this one has there's a lot, a lot of facets that we could really get into and discuss, uh, and just uh a few of the more basic ones, and then we could maybe talk about some of the uh like extracurricular ideas here. But um, so one, uh in Luke's gospel account in and uh what is it, Luke 1 verse 2, um, when when he's talking about uh the the census, he specifies the the first census of of Corinians. So so we at least know when he was governor, does it say of Syria? I I I believe it does. Okay. Um so so we at least know that there's multiple censuses. Censuses, is that right? Yeah, census. But if it was the first one, it would be the earliest. Yeah, yeah, perhaps. So, but there's a there's a key on on this word. And so this is this is one of those instances too in scripture where we we have to go back a little bit to the original language and what it what first, what that means.

“Protos” And Translation Pushback

SPEAKER_00

Uh that word first, I believe it's a Greek word protos. Um and so it's uh it can either mean first or it can mean before it. So we just don't know precisely uh what this is referencing. And so it could be a poor interpretation of of the writing of the text. So it kind of opens this span up just a little bit. Uh and then also Can I push back on that though first? Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Uh well, there's a couple things there. Um well, every every major translation uses first there. So then you would be you would almost be going against every major translation. The next thing I would say is that proton, uh, pre uh and proteron could have been used. These are three other words that Luke could have used to say before, if he meant before. So why does Luke, who's uses some of the best New Testament Greek, use the wrong word at that time? Or a word that's confusing.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and I I don't know that he would have known that it was confusing at the time. You have at least, I think, four or five other instances within the New Testament that use the same word. It's not interpreted as first.

SPEAKER_02

But for that one, don't you have to have uh uh two things in the next sentence? So like before this and this like uh uh says it can mean before, but only if the sentence has a clear first and second pairing. So if there isn't a first and second pairing, it seems like that word typically means first.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, unless there's an understanding that there were more than one census, which which is it seems that either or both of those are true. So even if it's first, there's more than one census. Yeah, but it would be later, though. Yeah. Okay. But but and then there's there's several other sidebars. So I think there's Okay, let's keep going then. Yeah, and so I think there's several ways to reconcile this. And again, I think this is part of of the muddiness of looking at some of these historical things that we just don't know with a hundred percent certainty. Right. But this opens the range. And then also, so so we have uh inscriptions, coins, all sorts of things, uh, I believe evidence of Quirinius present uh within the region of Judea and all those things prior to the original census. I I don't remember particularly the date, uh, but but he was in some form of leadership uh before he was actually appointed governor. So uh there there is a possibility that he could have been a part of another census. Um and uh there's a little bit of a discrepancy. Uh again, you get into languages, uh, but of even the word that is interpreted as governor. So hegemon. Yeah, and so Hegemon Yuntos.

SPEAKER_02

The problem is he uses that same one for pilot, and he means governor. And Josephus needs it for uh and Felix. And he also uses that, and and and uh Josephus uses that word as governor as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Well, and even when you look up that word though, I mean I think there's yeah, at least two. So leader, governor. Right. But and so uh a lot of those things we we're just it seems to be a little bit hazy in the in the history, just trying to figure out where exactly uh Corinnius was, what was his role, what was his authority, and then where in this uh where in this span of the census uh did did all of this stuff occur. So um, you know, a lot of these, there's historical evidence to show that in a lot of these censuses, people would have to register even well before actually having to pay. Uh, and so a lot of people believe that the upheaval didn't happen in the census until people had to cough up money, uh, which could have been their registration versus their payment. Ten years later, though? Perhaps. So so I'm not saying necessarily that that census, you know, was that far, but I I think I think it definitely could have happened to the city. Well, do you put Herod at 4 BC? Yeah, I think so. But I what I'm I guess I'm trying to say, there's probably three or four pretty solid responses that open this uh this range of time to kind of get us to where, yeah, there's kind of a question mark here to we don't know exactly the timeline of how this played out. Uh and and so that's why I get to where I I I don't necessarily like putting hard, hard numbers. But no, I think you're right. I think almost every resource I've read puts Herod at that range and the first census of Quirinius later, about 10 years later, but we just don't know. Uh we just don't know if that's the start of the census, if that's when they're going to Bethlehem, if uh that's when they're having to pay up money, if that's this is when, you know, the revolt starts. Um, and with there being multiple censuses, when and when and which one does the revolt start? Uh there's just a lot of facts that I have question marks about that I'm honestly I'm not 100% sure on. Right.

SPEAKER_02

I guess I would just say my stance is that I don't really see any evidence of the earlier census. I don't know where to find it at. If there is, I don't I haven't been able to find it.

SPEAKER_00

He was, I I do believe that there is evidence. And and I need to I I can maybe check a resource or something and try to send it to you. But I'm I'm pretty sure that I've read uh that there is evidence of Quirnius being a part of previous census, uh

Why Travel To Bethlehem?

SPEAKER_00

perhaps not him leading as the governor. Right. That he was a part of an official while they were a client kingdom? I I believe so. Uh I want to say that I read something that referenced that and was talking about the inscriptions of coins and several of those things, which is why uh they believe him to be a part of that previous to even what they think is is mentioned within the gospels. Um and so there's archaeological evidence for that, not just hearsay. Uh so anyway, I thought that was interesting. No, that that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02

I'm I'm thinking it through. Uh what about what about the reason for traveling? To me, that that's one that really sticks out to me. Um you know, go to your ancestral home. And another thought is why I mean when you read um when you read Luke, it seems like they start in Nazareth and go to Bethlehem. Yeah. When you read Matthew, does it seem like they start in Nazareth?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think so. So that's their uh that's their home, hometown. Does it say that? Does it say in Matthew that that's their home base? I don't I mean, obviously that's where what it they're that's where they're from, but um yeah, I don't know that it specifies that.

SPEAKER_02

I'd have to go back and I think it starts in Bethlehem and Matthew. As far as it starts in Bethlehem in Matthew? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

It's like in chapter one or two. It's after the big long genealogy that ends in Joseph and Joseph's not his dad. Yeah that's in the sidebar.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Why do you think let me ask that? I don't I won't, I don't I gotta come back to this, but why do you think the genealogy goes through Joseph and he's not his dad?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, I think one of the genealogies, and some of this I haven't touched in a while, but one of the genealogies is supposed supposedly tracing, you know, lineage through Joseph's ancestry, tracing back to David, the other supposedly through Mary, tracing back to Adam. Yeah, yeah. And and so uh, and and some of you know, people would explain that as different theological implications of those generations. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Well, Matthew has 14, 14, 14. And then if you look at them, it's not necessarily 14, 14, but Matthew wanted it to be 14, 14.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and so they're skipping some of the lineage to get the idea, but then he's also pointing to the son of David. This, I mean pretty much this theological idea.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because it's like I guess the way he presents it, it's like Abraham to David is 14. No, or there is there one in between there. Abraham to is Abraham to David? I I don't know. And then David to the exile, and then to the exile to him. It's 14, 14, 14, anyways.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I know, I know that he intended it to be that, right, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, to be honest, I did not show that he might try something like that, though, like where he might change some part of the story in order to uh get some type of theological goal?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I don't know that he I don't know that he's trying to change something in in in kind of a gotcha moment. And so a lot of those things were were typical of those genealogies back in the day. So um, you know, what we would expect to trace back generation to generation to generation, uh, they would often skip those to get the general idea, just practically showing you where this is going to root this back to I mean the prophecy is.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I wasn't saying he was like being like mischievous or nothing. Like I'm saying like if if there was a time where he really wanted to make a theological point, do you think he would wiggle?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. I don't know that I'll yeah, I don't I don't think I would say that he would wiggle, but I mean obviously they're gonna use a lot of these ministries and and revelation and things to to make theological points about Jesus, and that is why they shared these stories and and and pulled them together in the ways that they did, not saying that they're not accurate historically or anything like that. But um, you know, the gospels don't necessarily happen chronologically either. Uh, that a lot of these are pairings because of ideas and things that they're trying to communicate. And so um Yeah, I definitely don't think the gospels are chronological.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you can't. Like is that John would just mess it completely up.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. And so a lot of it, they're just pairing these ideas that that are kind of proclaiming bits and pieces about Christ, who he is, and and what he's come to do. There's a lot of like theological underpinning. So they're certainly using those things to communicate a message. Um but anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, yeah. So maybe they start and it is like when we get Herod, we get that secret meeting with Herod, and it seems like they're where's the child gonna be born? In Bethlehem.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I don't never see anything about it being Nazareth, and maybe that's just understood. Because later in Matthew, there's a story of him going home, I believe, which I know that's in Mark, and I assume it's in Matthew. Uh, and home is Nazareth. So maybe that works out.

SPEAKER_00

But um Yeah, I'd have to go read for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Um okay, so next next point.

SPEAKER_00

So I think the reason, I think what we were originally talking about was why did they go?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, why? Why? Yeah, that's another thing. Because I mean, an ancestral travel of him going to Bethlehem, because I've heard all kinds of things. They say, well, he had two houses. Like Joseph had two houses. I'm like, well, I mean, it anything is possible, you know. I might could dunk on somebody else. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Because they're like, but they're thinking, like, well, why because you could ask a question, why do you get taxed? Why are you getting taxed in Bethlehem if all your stuff is in Nazareth? So like if they came to my house and they're like, hey, your great, great, great, great-grandpa lived in New Boston, we got to tax you. Yeah. It's like, well, what are you gonna tax me on? Well, I'm gonna tax you on your stuff in Texas Canaan. It's like, yeah, I'm over here, brother. So like that's that's why I think um, that's one of the reasons why I'm curious about that. Luke's wording is interesting when he says worldwide, and clearly it's not the whole world, but like, is it Roman-wide? We like even that census that we're we can clearly tie a date to, it was in Judea.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

It wasn't like a worldwide, but I mean, I guess if you were in Judea and you were in like Judea and Samaria and Galilee in that area, worldwide might mean like your entire world. But we're assuming it's Luke who wrote later. And so Luke would have a different idea about what it is. I mean, you would argue over how ladies writing, but that's fine. But why why travel? Why take your eight-month pregnant wife to Bethlehem? Um, I did the math, it's like 70 to 80 miles to get registered for what you have. I'm assuming, like most sentences, I'm assuming, are you know, for to get counted, obviously. But I mean, why else would Rome count you? They want to tax you. Yeah, they want the money. Yeah, they want the money for sure.

SPEAKER_00

So same way today.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, no doubt today. We'll stop the whole podcast. Taxation is theft. Yeah, no, I'm playing. Amy and you're preaching now. So what do you think about that? So why would they travel?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I I mean, uh there's there's a few reasons that you know I could give. I uh one I don't obviously know for sure, but Uh there could be different rules and regulations if, say, there was a worldwide census for the Roman Empire, there could have been different rules uh required for, say, the district of Judea. Okay. So

Magi Origins And The Star

SPEAKER_00

so not necessarily the entire Roman Empire, which is like most of the known world at the time is having to go back to their their homeland.

SPEAKER_02

And because I mean he's not he's going into a whole different region. You know, he's leaving Galilee to go into Judea.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And so some of that, uh it could be a possibility that there's just a different requirement for this newly required.

SPEAKER_02

I did think I did think about that, like, because when it turns into which the dating still doesn't jive for me, but that it does, there is some type of possibility. I think maybe if he had some type of tie to Bethlehem, that um if they are it like I said, they just went from a client kingdom to a Roman province in si and in in AD6, if that's is when the census was. And then maybe for some reason they reached out that like somehow they reached out to him and was like, hey, you have this here that you need to go get counted for that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, and and you certainly know that his lineage and families from there. So I mean, we we do know that. Everybody traveled back to their it would be chaos. I I agree. But also, if you're demanded to do it by the people in power and they've got soldiers and all the stuff, like you're you're gonna do it. And you know, there there is uh evidence of other censuses that required that. So do we have to do that?

SPEAKER_02

It's about Egypt. It's a little different. Possibly they may have had to travel.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and there's a there's a work. So I uh I'd have to look up the author's name again, but he notes several that um that are actually other like ancient censuses. I feel like that's wrong for some reason. It just sounds weird. Um but uh photosynthesis. Where they are, yeah, where they're requiring people to go back to their homeland. And then there's this kind of Oh my bad.

SPEAKER_02

I'm sorry, don't let me, yeah, don't let me. I don't want to cut you off. I get so excited about this. No, you're not trying to cut you off. But you know, and I agree.

SPEAKER_00

It does seem a little outlandish, except for, man, so if if there is this divine intervention, and so I know say from just a practical historical perspective, this might not play a role for you, but say for Christians, man, you're you're you're seeing God reorganize the entire world to fulfill his prophecy that the Messiah would come from Bethlehem. And so we have this promise that God is gonna accomplish his sovereign will, okay? Uh and so he's gonna figure out a way, even if it's through the hands of the Roman Empire, to to dictate that they go home in an unorthodox census, that he's gonna accomplish what he wants to accomplish. And you you have, I think the prophecy is within Micah. Micah 2, 7 or something, or 7-2, what something of that nature. Yeah, but but I would likely uh affirm, and and a lot of scholars do, that Mary and Joseph probably know where the Messiah is to be born. Okay. And and so if they receive this letter from, or not letter, this message from angels, uh, that I mean that they're gonna have the son, the messiah, the savior of the world, uh, they might likely know that they need to go to Bethlehem. Uh and so this could be a little bit of a knowledgeable action uh for them to go. And some people argue that Joseph was gonna be required to go. Uh they knew that in the time that he would be gone, that Mary would have the baby. So Mary brought or Joseph brought Mary with him. Interesting. Um, and so I know I've actually been to Bethlehem, which was super interesting. Uh in 2018, my wife and I got to go to Israel and it was nuts. Uh uh, but yeah, that was one of the stops, and kind of got to go to the supposed, you know, location where he was born and and all those things, which is super neat. So I would love to do that the more I get interested in this stuff. I'd love to go. It's amazing for sure.

SPEAKER_02

It's a little scary over there right now.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend it right now.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, dude, I like that. So we're getting through it. Um, all right. So that's my issue with the census. Me, it doesn't make all that much sense to me, but that's fine. We mean you don't have to agree. That's the beauty of this. Yeah.

unknown

All right.

SPEAKER_02

So we have the magi, we have the like even if you read this, like if if if we took out a a piece of paper and we wrote down, we said, write everything that happens in Matthew on one, everything that happens in Luke on one, yeah. And then if we looked at them, we go, like, wait a minute, this is this is a lot of different stuff happening here. But doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. But I uh that could factor into maybe some of this, that they're it it it can start to feel like they're telling two different stories. Yeah. And uh I think that when we get to the end and they leave, I think it's really interesting. I'm sure you've heard this a many times, but when they leave, it seems like that Matthew takes them. Um when they leave Judea, they go to Egypt to flee from Haran. And uh, you know, the innocent the massacre of the innocents, all that stuff, which interesting, like there's no outside historical deal on like all the babies getting killed in Bethlehem, but I don't know the size of Bethlehem, so it might not have been headline news. For sure. I wish the angels would have told the rest of the families to get their two-year-old babies. Absolutely. Because uh Jesus knew to ski daddle, but the rest of them didn't.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and you don't know what control the government could have had over the historical stuff, too, uh as far as who was recording some of that stuff, and they might have tried to wipe, you know, some of that from uh kids and whitewash history. And I certainly believe some of that is happening today. Yeah, maybe so. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, which Herod was crazy. I I I really enjoy Herod. I spent a lot of time on Herod. Um, he, you know, from killing his wife to killing kids to very paranoid, crazy. Very crazy. Uh I was I was I've been thinking of him lately as a Game of Thrones character. It's been fun. Yeah. I was like, dude, King Herod the Great could be a Game of Thrones character. He would fit perfectly. It's just uh but he was smart. Yeah. That's one thing to say about him. It's like, and you gotta think, he he wasn't doing like too unordinary of stuff out of rulers for that time. He was doing normal ruler stuff. For sure. That's they're just shice do back then. They just did stuff. I know. But it does say something about him that he was able to do it for so long. I think it was from like 40, like BC 40 or 37 to 4. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's a long time to be backstabbing and killing kids. And it makes sense too. And he was in power for so long and didn't want to lose it, you know. Uh, and so that's why the king of the Jews and all this stuff was such a big deal to him. And then, you know, even the timeline as far as the Christmas story, obviously, like even you know, preaching and stuff, uh, most pastors nowadays, I feel like, note that a lot of this stuff didn't happen on like the birth of Jesus, like the night of, you know, where the Magi appear and all this stuff. Yeah, there's no yeah, there's no nativity scene. Yeah, and and and so a lot of these things take place took place over at least, I mean, probably a period of a couple of years, which is why Herod is trying to kill babies under two years and and under. Right. You know, that's when when the magic.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think they use the word uh Pydon. Oh, I have yeah, yeah, Pideon and Pis and Mecross. These are all words that mean little one, child sometimes, uh not infant, basically not infant. Yeah, yeah. So all the all the words when they talk about the like the youth that he's after, it seems like all of them refer to a child that isn't an infant, you know, not a baby.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for sure. Well, and and I think an interesting sidebar on this, and I don't know that I ever knew this until this year, um, and maybe this isn't true, but I'll just throw it out here. You might think it's interesting. But that the magi, it's always been intriguing to be like, where do these guys come from? Who like why we don't know just the East. And so the, I mean, like the more you study and research that, I mean, a lot of folks believe that they come one from from the East. So it I forget the two people groups, but but likely Babylon. And so a lot of people believe that this is traced all the way back to Daniel, who was over the wise men teaching and all sorts of these things. So he's he's likely imparting to their people historians and all of that, uh, where the Messiah is to come. And so he notes all of these things and that somehow they see the star sometimes. Yeah, and somehow that they knew that there was this meteorological uh meteorological like sign that was going to be. You could have been able to follow a star. Yeah, well, that was going to come. And I don't it would be interesting. I need to look this up to figure out exactly what they think this was, this astrological symbol and all this, you know, what was actually happening.

SPEAKER_02

It would have had to land over the house at one point.

SPEAKER_00

Well, or at least first. Well, they still had to ask where. And so we we kind of get this idea where it's like, oh, they're just following this star to the trail. But then the high priests give them the verse. Yeah, and they said, no, he's he's in Bethlehem. So they Okay, so they go to Jerusalem. Yeah. So they just go, yeah, to Israel and they ask because they think everybody should know. And Herod obviously doesn't, but they knew his historians knew, no, it's it's in Bethlehem. And then they spin up the microphone. And so there was just this astrological symbol. I don't know necessarily that the uh the Christian narrative, as far as like the the beautiful star of David, is right above you know the house. I don't know that that's happening. I think it comes across the sky. They recognize the symbol and start to make their journey. Uh, and so all of it they think roots back to Daniel in Babylon.

SPEAKER_02

What if the star was an angel, since the angel is the one that keeps telling them to go here, go there, and telling them about stuff.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it could be, or you know, it could just be, you know, a planet or something that we track in the sky periodically or whatever. But but I and I forget exactly where the reference, but there is a verse. Oh, that's gonna upset my. Yeah. But there's a verse that specifically talks about, you know, the the the rising star or whatever and relates that uh to the coming Messiah. I've and I've read that, I don't remember the reference, but right, we could maybe tag that too. But uh anyway, but all that's very interesting to me. I never knew that until this year.

SPEAKER_02

I kind of narried it out about the wise men are interesting for sure. Yeah, like I said, I don't think there's a nativity

Egypt, Nazareth, And Missing Details

SPEAKER_02

story. I don't think that definitely doesn't seem like that kajab. The problem for me is is when they leave to go back to Nazareth. Well, in Matthew, they don't want to go, which makes me curious. Like, did they start in Bethlehem in Matthew? Because it seems like they don't want to go back to Nazareth. It seems to be the second option. Yeah, they want to go back to Judea, but then the angel warns them of Archelaus, and Archelaus is I don't even know if the angel warns them of Archelaus. I think they might just realize Archelaus is bad, like his dad. And then they do. I can't remember. That's that's that's blurry to me. But I do know that their second option seems to be Nazareth, and so they decide after when they leave Egypt, they go to Nazareth this time. And that's the first time they go to Nazareth, in Matthew at least. In Luke, they're they traveled to Bethlehem for the census. Once they leave this, uh then then he gets circumcised, then he does the the stuff at the temple, which Bethlehem's what, only like six, eight miles away from Jerusalem. So I think they walk with the baby Jesus that far and take him to uh do all the rites. It's a short bus ride. Yeah. Short bus ride. That wasn't really. I do know that. I don't know the exact one. Yeah, it's close. So because I always look at the distance. And that that's one thing I like to do when I'm reading the Bible, is anytime they say they go somewhere, I'm like, how far did they travel? Especially when you start looking at Paul. Like, I know bro, you you're doing too much. But um, okay, so they leave. And in this one, it says when they leave the temple, they go back to Nazareth. Yeah. And Luke does not mention anything about he mentions Herod, it was during his reign. He doesn't mention anything about them being chased by Herod. He doesn't mention anything about Egypt. Yeah. There's nothing in like if I read Luke by itself, there's nothing in Luke that would make me think Jesus got chased by a king and hid in Egypt for all these years and all this stuff. There's literally nothing. It says they go from here to here, and once they leave from here, they go back to Nazareth. And that's Luke's open and shut deal. Yeah. And I know that there, you could say, like, there's some time compression, maybe, or you could say that, uh, well, Luke just didn't mention it. It's just like, to me, it's like, dang, Luke had some real good stuff that he could have put in if he knew it. So, like, did are we saying that Luke didn't know that Jesus went to Egypt? I guess that'd be my question. Did he not know?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I've again, I mean, I some of this stuff we just won't know for sure, except for, you know, there's various things that you could argue. One, you might even argue that Mary and Joseph didn't want to go back to Nazareth because she was an outcast in her society. She just got pregnant out of wedlock and people were bashing her and they didn't want to go back and deal with it yet. Uh he was going to be called a Nazarene. This was, you know, prophetic and that God was going to bring them back there somehow. Um, but um, but as far as say with the the Luke's gospel and what he tends to emphasize, one, Matthew uh is written more towards a Jewish audience. And so a lot of these prophecies and things would have been known, like they would have been studied, like he's he's writing to a familiar audience. Luke is not. Uh, and so he's he's he's likely skimming over some of these things that would be Jewish, you know, significant to Jewish culture. And then specifically, I think Nazareth is an emphasis because um Nazareth was almost a part of the land of the Gentiles. So if Luke is writing to Gentiles uh specifically, uh this this would have been very uh relatable to them because this was almost in the providence of the Gentiles, uh, and and is why, you know, even within the New Testament, they say nothing good comes from Nazareth. Right. Because uh they almost saw it as like you're not even part of north than Galilee as you get. They saw it almost like you're not even a part of Jewish culture. Uh so you're like you're you're almost out in the land of the Gentiles.

SPEAKER_02

And so with that's almost like as far the further you get away from Jerusalem, huh?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And so there was there was a little bit of that stuff going on, and and which is kind of interesting and it plays into Luke's narrative, I think, because uh he he's presenting Christ as a savior to the lowly, to all, to the gentile, to the outcast, to those who were not a part of the promise. And so uh I don't know, I think I would argue a little bit there that it fits Luke's narrative. To not mention Herod. Yeah, and I don't know that he was necessarily Yeah, I and maybe he maybe he didn't know, or maybe you know, the Holy Spirit just doesn't inspire him to write that for some reason. But but it seems like he might be skimming over some of those things that wouldn't be that big of a deal to Gentile believers, that they'd be like, Oh, okay, he went to Egypt. Jewish believers are gonna be like, oh, he went to Egypt out of Egypt. God's gonna call his son.

SPEAKER_02

Um it's just two different audiences. Some of these prophecies, though, like when you go read the prophecies, because I'm like out of Egypt, he's talking about Exodus, though. Like, even like some of these other ones, like in Bethlehem, it's not necessarily like I I guess that by that time they were interpreted in them as for Jesus. But some of these things are just like, these are just rando lines they're pulling from here sometimes. And they're in the city. Yeah, in the clip, I got this one here. Right. It's like I read it and I'm like, damn, that doesn't seem like that. That's a that's talking about there's one, one of them is just like if you read it, it's talking about a certain amount of time, like this in the time this baby would be born, you'd call that Israel would like conquer their enemies or be free or something like that. And then like that's it in its context. And I forget, and I should uh uh shame on me, I didn't write it down. But then it's a prophecy about Jesus when they need it to be a prophecy about Jesus. That's what it would be my pushback from that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, and I think some of it might appear that way. Some of it was was specifically about the future Savior and all those things. You'd have to look at, you know, specific instances. And then another thing that I could, you know, kind of push back a little bit, uh, especially on the Psalms. So uh there are a number of those kind of one, two-line or few verses that they pull out that, you know, they kind of proclaim as prophetic, pointing to Christ. But but some of those come from like paschal type hymns, like hymns of Passover and these things that now in the New Testament we look back and realize this is uh a reference symbolic of Christ, of the coming Savior, you know, the Lamb of God and all those things that happened in the Egypt and deliverance story and all that. We we don't have to get into all of it. But I I think they look back on some of those things and recognize that it was a uh like a foreshadowing of of what is to come. And so that's why they interpret those things in light of Christ. So some of those have have a little better explanation than just like I'm just pulling in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's interesting. Yeah, no, I I I agree. That's that's cool. Um, okay. Did we did we I think we talked about everything from the birth story. What do you think about that? Do you think that we we went all the routes? There's tons of stuff to talk about there. It's cool though, isn't it? This was a really fun one for me to and uh I enjoy talking about it.

SPEAKER_00

Especially with Christmas being, you know, just uh a couple of weeks ago.

Closing Thoughts And Listener Prompt

SPEAKER_02

Thanks again for hanging out with me on another episode of the Agnostic Bible study. If you want to participate more, drop down in the comments and tell us whose argument you think was more convincing and what your favorite part of the debate was. If you're enjoying these segments with Cole, you are in luck. There will be at least three more parts coming soon. But now I'll leave you with my normal closing thoughts. Don't just take my word for this stuff. Don't just take Cole's word for this stuff. Go engage with the sources and find your own conclusions. I want you to know why you believe what you believe. That is important on the show. If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like, share, and subscribe. And if you're on Spotify and Apple Podcast, remember please rate the show and follow us. That really helps. If you're really enjoying the show and you're wanting more from me this week, you have to go to one of our audio platforms. I drop a bonus episode every single Saturday. I'm currently breaking down different methods of interpreting the Bible. It's been a lot of fun. But if not, I'll be back next Tuesday with another verse by verse breakdown of Mark. Thanks again for tuning in. And remember, never stop learning. I'll see you next time.