Did the Idea of Hell Develop Over Time? | Conversations with Christians

Two trillion years is still not eternity, so what does it mean to say someone suffers forever? That’s the question that kicks off a free-flowing “Conversations with Christians” chat between me, Joe Teal, and my buddy Drexur John from the Philippines. We get into the hardest parts of the doctrine of hell without hiding behind easy answers: eternal conscious torment vs annihilationism, whether “separation from God” is its own kind of punishment, and why the idea of never-ending pain creates a massive fairness problem for anyone trying to think clearly.

From there we wrestle with repentance and morality. If a murderer truly changes, where does that leave the person whose sins look smaller but never “turns”? Drexur explains repentance as a heart-level shift that produces fruit, not a get-out-of-hell trick, and we talk about earthly consequences even when someone claims forgiveness. We also hit “once saved always saved,” the idea of lost rewards, and why fear is a shaky foundation for faith.

Then we go full Bible-nerd and ask the question I always want answered: can you show hell in the Old Testament. We talk Sheol as a more neutral realm of the dead, how Second Temple Judaism shapes later afterlife ideas, and why terms like Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus sound like an evolving picture influenced by culture, language, and time. We even touch the Apostles’ Creed and the “harrowing of hell” as theology that develops around Scripture.

If you care about biblical history, Christian theology, deconstruction, or just want a serious conversation that doesn’t talk down to you, press play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves these debates, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Why Hell Still Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The more dogmatic view that I'm usually opposed with is what people typically hit me with is the version of the eternal conscious punishment where it's basically set in stone if I don't make this right decision, then I'll be eternally separated from God forever. And not just that, but then I'll be consciously punished. Think of two trillion years, right? That's not eternity, that's still finite, right? So two trillion years, I'm gonna be burned consciously? I'm gonna be tormented consciously.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Definitely, yes. I believe in the fact that if someone spreads the gospel to you and you reject it wholeheartedly, and I mean reject like blatantly, blatantly until the end of your life, totally, it is, you know, damnation. I'm firm with that.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Can you show me hell in the Old Testament? What's going on, and welcome to another episode of the Agnostic Bible Study. I'm your host, Joe Teal, and today is a fun one. I'm starting a new mini-series called Conversations with Christians. It's just when I sit down with Christians, we have off-the-cuff conversations. It isn't quite as structured as my normal episodes are where I've done all the research and wrote out my script and all the things of that nature. This is a lot more free-flowing. It's just an honest conversation between me, an agnostic, and a Christian. And today our topic is hell. So it's a fun one. I ask him what he thinks about hell, the different versions of hell, and I explain how I feel about the subject as someone who doesn't really believe. So I hope y'all enjoy this conversation. Drexur John is a great guy. He's all the way from the Philippines. Very nice, very intelligent guy. And uh, I hope y'all enjoy this conversation on hell. Y'all enjoy. What do you think? What do you think about eternal conscious punishment? That's a fun one. That's a light.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Are we talking about heaven and hell right here? Or what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, well, if we just talked about heaven and I thought about maybe we'll talk about hell. Oh, yeah. So what what's your thoughts on like because there's different interpretations of it, obviously. Some people there the the main two that I see that went out is that um eternal conscious punishment, which is the scary one, um, where you're you're punished like forever. Like it's like never ending and you're consciously feeling the torment of the torture and all

Eternal Torment Vs Annihilation

SPEAKER_01 2:05

the ever, right? Which we don't even we can't even understand that concept. So versus like annihilation where uh annihilationism where uh like if you if you're not on the right side with God things, um maybe you do get tossed into a lake of fire, but like if you threw a stick into a lake of fire, it would just burn up. Like, and so like am I like that stick where it make let's say God is real and I make the wrong decision about all this, and there is some type of hell for me. And and some of the verses see like it all there seems to be some type of fire, you know what I mean? Some sorts of fire, some sorts of, but do I burn in that fire immediately? Do I just am I just annihilated and separated from God? Or am I going to eternally feel that consciously? And if you do pick that one, then we have to have a whole nother conversation about does that make sense? But what what are your thoughts on like those two stances?

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Yeah, so this is based on I'm gonna use other sources as well on what I read, and you can also maybe add on. So I do believe 100% in hell, right? But I also believe also in the lake of fire, in the sense of right, salvation and all that. I believe in those things, but I really I also read something about the levels of hell because like there's levels of heaven, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Well, Paul seemed to have some type of vision where it seemed like there's multiple levels, there were levels.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

So, in that sense, that's where what what you said comes in. There are people that are in the deep levels that are really constantly tortured, and then there are some are in the upper levels where it's just really pure um isolation from God, just desolation. And that now depends on the life that you lived and the bad things you've done. So, for example, let's say let's say I'm being legalistic and I just say, Oh, I never killed anybody, I never murdered anybody, and I would just say I just lied in whatsoever. What is that? Perhaps I'd be in level one where I would get that isolation from God, but I wouldn't be in let's say level three, four, and five, where let's say, forgive me for uh a murderer or whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, but but see the problem is a murderer could repent and get out of level five and still have done all the bad stuff.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Well, repentance is another very interesting thing because, in the sense of repentance, it's a heart thing, right? So, of course, murder is wrong. We believe that wholeheartedly. Right. Well, Paul murdered people exactly. Now, if my mindset is just I don't want to go to hell, I that's that's just the bare minimum. Like your goal should not be like that. The goal of repentance is to be like Christ, is to change your mind in the essence of Christianity. There are people that often argue like Christianity is ridiculous because it's like it's like a way out of hell. But if a Christian were just to argue I'm saved because I wanted to get out of hell, then you're not saved at all. Because your salvation also has fruits, it should have fruits. Love, joy, peace, patience, long suffering. Now, if you don't have those fruits, I'm not saying it's based on works, I question the authenticity of your salvation. So, in that respect, um, to have that argument that a murderer would just get away, I don't think they'd get away because they're not saved.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

They would just think that Well, they can have a change of heart though, can't they?

SPEAKER_03 5:02

They can have a change of heart, correct.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, but so like if I don't kill somebody and somebody else kills somebody and they have a change of heart, but I don't have a change of heart about lying, am I in a worse place than them when life ends?

SPEAKER_03 5:15

And speaking of hell in general, everyone who is, you know, because we've all done wrong things, right? Not just lying, we've all done, even scripture says all have fallen short of the glory of God. So no one is righteous, no, not one. So, in the essence of comparing sin in the levels of hell, indeed, the one who is just lying is not in a worse state than the one who murdered, they'd be in a different level. But in the sense of looking at God in salvation-wise, every was every sin has that particular consequence, which is death. If it makes sense, what I'm saying makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

But I mean, because we're separated by birth, right? By the fall, a sin nature.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

The fall or sin nature, correct.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

And so you're wrong by default. But what I'm asking is is if a guy murders somebody and then has a change of heart, but I don't murder somebody, but don't have a change of heart about lying, he's gonna end up in a better place than I did, even though he killed somebody and I lied about uh taking a fruit or something. Is that you think that?

SPEAKER_03 6:19

I believe in that sense of salvation, heaven, and hell. Right. Yes, I'm far with that, but again, like I said, it's not just about the lying and whatsoever, right? There's also there's also the other stuff that someone did. So society, that's another thing, because morality, right? Being moral in nature, society tends to label things as like, okay, he did something worse, I did something better. Yeah so yeah, yes. So once you really center that on the perspective of God that all sin is detestable, then you humble yourself more. That's why I never another thing, legalism, it also considers about that, like, oh, here Christians can be legalistic. Oh, his sin is worse than mine,

Levels Of Hell And Justice

SPEAKER_03 6:55

whatsoever. And that's just pride and ego. So if I were to put into my mindset that, let's say, a murderer repents, I would not judge that murderer. I would say, okay, he did something wrong. I I believe in justice, but the fact that he has a change of heart, I will welcome him lovingly. I think there's also a parable about that, about the laborers in scriptures. It's about the laborers, right? The laborers in the field, those who joined, the latest ones who joined had the same wage as the ones in the past.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

And the people in the past were like the people the ones meaning past, like the ones who are already working. So I don't know, that's just how I would think of it as that sense. Because I I see my morality in God's eyes. And if you know, no matter what crime you've done, and of course the punishment is different. I believe if you redeem, if you can, if you have a change of heart and you want to be, you know, redeem yourself, I would accept you wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Should there be earthly consequences though, even if you repent?

SPEAKER_03 7:53

There will definitely be earthly consequences, right? For example, let's say, let's give it a good example, David and Bathsheba. This is adultery, right? David was technically a murderer, if you think about it, right? Right, for sure. For sure. If that story is true, then yeah. So definitely he repented, but the earthly consequence was still there, right? Even scripture says he God disciplines whom he loves, because if he is a loving God, he would also correct his own children, right? I am saved, um, but it doesn't mean I can just do what I want. If I were to go out here and rob a bank, I'd end up in jail. Yeah, that's why I would always tell people, you know, about some. There are many, this is a touchy subject, but scandals. We have those influencers or Christian pastors or whatsoever have those scandals. I would always tell people, you can't just say it can't happen to you. I would say if it happened to them, it can happen to me. So I gotta watch myself.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Right?

SPEAKER_03 8:43

So earthly consequences are still applicable both for Christians and non-Christians. So for us Christians, I believe we are saved and our eternal place is secured. But since we are still here on earth and we are still bound by the curse of Adam and Eve, therefore, hence, hence, therefore, it still applies. And that's why we can't just fall into hedonism and do just what we want. Because, you know, we reap what we sow, right? And we can choose the choices, but the consequences, no, we can't. So I'm firm with that. Even you know, I think Paul also mentioned something about that, like how the law works, like they you know, the lawmakers would try to instill the law to those who break it, don't break it, right? Paul talks about that, not breaking it. So it's also talking about us, not just the unsaved. There's a standard of holiness, the more Christians should live a higher holy life because they're saved.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah, well, for sure. For sure. Amen. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest knocks against like modern Christianity is that you can point out to people it's like like let not to not that comparing is good, but you can say that person is not acting very good. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 9:59

I get what you mean. Yeah, it's it's part also of our human nature to have those type of things that we think.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

I don't know. There's no verses to kind of back up what what you're saying, and what you're saying is kind of like a feeling, and I get that, uh, like the levels of hell, there's no verses for that. It's a different source, yes. Right. So there's no verses for that. Um also the more dogmatic view that I'm usually opposed with is what people typically hit me with, is the version of the eternal conscious punishment where it's basically set in stone if I don't make this right decision about you know, this the most complex thing in the entire universe, but whatever. If I don't make the right decision, then I'll be eternally separated from God forever. And not just that, but that I'll be consciously punished for eternally. And I just trying to figure out like what your thoughts on that about like I know we can't have like fairness, but like if I'm bad for let's say I die right now at 32 years old or almost 32.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

God forbid.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Right. But if I was to die right now and I don't have the right uh conclusion or whatever the you know, the real fundamentalist type say I need to have, um they would say that even though I was only here for 32 years, eternally, like we can't like think of two trillion years, right? That's not eternity, that's still finite, right? So two trillion years, I'm gonna be burned consciously, like I'm gonna be tormented consciously. Like I'm a you know, not that I'm opposed to I don't feel like I'm a great person all the time, right? No one's I'm fine with my flaws, right? I understand that. And so, like, you know, I'm not like you do see the people on the internet that are like, oh, you don't call me a sinner and all that stuff. Like, I'm like, I'm like, even the gospel itself, like I'm not offended by the gospel. Like, I get it. I was a Christian, like it made perfect sense to me at one time. But just to me now, uh carry on. I'm not opposed to being a sinner, right? I know I'm I mess up, I do dumb stuff sometimes, and I don't make the right decisions, right? But I've just made new conclusions about everything, right? And so I discoveries and if I if those get me out of the right conclusion that would lead me to hell, does it make sense for me to live 32 years on this life and be punished eternally, consciously, for two trillion

Repentance, Fruits, And Fairness

SPEAKER_01 12:20

years and then even into eternity? What do you think of that?

SPEAKER_03 12:24

You know, based on the gospels, right? So you mentioned to me that you when you found the gospel, it was not offensive to you, right? I believe that once you're saved, once saved, always saved. I'm a firm believer of the same thing. Oh, I'm saved. Yeah, I believe you are saved. Even though I'm a heretic. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

If if if if it really is once saved, always saved, and I'm still I had a legit experience. Like now, I don't believe in that spirit no more, but in that moment I did. So what would you do with that?

SPEAKER_03 12:50

So definitely, I always say to people, you cannot lose your salvation. And of course, you it it's a hard thing, right? When you when you got saved, of course, you considered your own sin and all that, right? It's a hard thing. You know, you know, and you know that I cannot take that away. Your heart was there. I can't wait. Totally. No one can take that away from you, right? Okay, then I'm good. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

So but people are not gonna want to hear that from me.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

However, you can lose the rewards because there's a scripture that talks about this the crowns and all that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

And I don't need no crowns. I don't got no crowns right now.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

You could still gain it, Joe. You could it's never too late, Joe.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

I don't need a crown. Like, if I get to heaven, like I'm not gonna be worried about a crown, though. Like, that doesn't make no sense to me. Like working towards a crown.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Like, I don't want this crown, like I'm just how I would I don't need a I would see it as like, for example, let's say Christ would want to give you these abundant rewards. He already gave you heaven, okay? Heaven is guaranteed, but yeah, if heaven is guaranteed, I don't even need the rewards. But God wants the best for you. Heaven we can consider, let's say, as a Christian, heaven is already the good part, but he wants the best part, which which is thriving when we get there. So, in the sense of scripture that says he wants us to live life in abundance, that is why I watch myself and I want to really check my own philosophies and mindsets. It's not because of the fact that I'm afraid to lose salvation, because I won't, right? I want to be able to center my mind on the Christian philosophy because it is the way of life where I find myself to be more improving, where I find my decisions to be sound. Because before I found Christ, I know for a fact that this, if I take away this philosophy, I would be in this sort of uh mindset that I would find myself in rock bottom where I don't want to be. Now, I believe, as I say, people, we can be in rock bottom, but I would be in rock bottom due to my own choices, and I don't want that to happen again. That has happened to me. Right. So, considering that, I want to be able to still feel empowered in the midst of trials and tribulations, and based on my own experience, that has only occurred to me when I maintain the faith. And when I mean maintain it, not like maintaining like, oh, I must still keep believing in God, but just letting the Lord work in me. You know, ideologies come, deconstruction comes, but I would find a way to rely on God and let it maneuver to me. So I'm not worried about salvation in that sense. I'm worried more about my decision making. I'm worried more about how this decision, based on this philosophy, will give me a consequence here on earth. And at the same time, I also, as much as I love heaven and I'm gonna go to heaven, I know, I also want to be able to get those crowns, maybe because of my nature of being a little bit competitive back then, or probably because I just want to show my best to God. Because I love the Lord so much that I want to give my best to him. And if giving my best means living life in a way that not many people understand, then I will do it. So it's not out of obligation of salvation why I think these things, it's because I love the Lord and I want to do my best for him, and he empowers me through that love. So, you know, with your mindset and being agnostic, some people being atheists and all that, I always try to share my faith and I always try my, of course, like you mentioned, leading them back, but I'm not so forceful about it. I always believe in the sense of love as the main key, right? So that would be important, yes, because once you get that love and grace, it goes a long way. And our job as Christians is to plant the seed, not to force it to grow, right? So, in that respect of thinking, you know, deeply about hell and all that, I don't believe that you are gonna go to hell because you are saved, especially in your heart, but reward-wise, you're missing out. So I would just say, hey, what if we go in this direction? We can get you more. But again, that's just my take on it, and I don't force people.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah, but if I wasn't, if I never had any experience or anything like that, do you think that I would be eternally punished?

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Basically, like if you didn't hear the gospel or anything, yeah, or if I heard it and rejected it. So the fact, okay, definitely yes, I believe in the fact that if someone spreads the gospel to you and you reject it wholeheartedly, and I mean reject like blatantly, blatantly until the end of your life, totally it is you know, damnation. I'm firm with that. You know, God finds a way to Eternal like conscious punishment?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

So like the whole nine, like or do you think that that plays more into like the levels you were thinking about?

SPEAKER_03 17:14

The levels definitely will you'll end up in hell, but the levels play a fact play a far play a factor once um you get there, if that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Alright, so let me ask you this. It's okay. Um this is an open conversation. Can you show me hell in the Old Testament?

SPEAKER_03 17:30

I think was it Gehanna, if I'm not mistaken? That's Shol Shol Shool. Shell, Shil, Shool.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah, that's basically like a neutral place that everybody went to. So this idea of heaven and hell really develops over time. So, like especially, and there's even big influences on from like Babylon, when you know Israel was was conquered and stuff. It's a lot uh it's a really deep conversation, but I'm willing to go there first. Please, please, don't think about this while I think about hell because I just like so if in the Old Testament we don't really see the same type of hell or lake of fire, anything of that nature, would you agree? I don't see it. Sheol is not hell. Even if some translations try to translate it as hell, it makes it look like it's one cohesive thing. Sheol is not hell. And so when they get conquered, you gotta think, Israel, every time they get conquered, you it even happened with the Romans. You get Hellenized. What they got the Romans conquered them, they got Hellenized. What do you think happened when the Babylonians conquered them? What do you think happened when the Assyrians conquered them? What do you think happened when the well, I don't think the Egyptian thing happened, but that's an whole nother conversation for the conversation. But what do you think happens there? You blend, right? And I think draw heavily from Zoroastrianism, from a lot of influenza she means. Exactly. And I think that when by the time we get to Second Temple Judaism, you have your first temple Judaism, which is when Solomon built the temple, on to where they do eventually get conquered by Babylon. Correct. And then uh the temple gets destroyed, and then the Persians whoop Babylon, and through that, Israel gets to go back to their spot, they build the second temple, and we get into what they call Second Temple Judaism. And in this period, a lot of shift starts happening. They reform, it gets a lot more monotheistic. And something that comes out of there is um starts this this this view of the afterlife starts to get bigger and bigger. It's something we don't really see throughout the entire Old Testament. But by time we get to like the Maccabean period, by the time we remain in the old, that's when that's when it becomes more refined in the sense. Yeah, well, I mean refined. I mean that's what we show you defined, because yeah, yeah, as far as hell, that's when it's like well, we don't see anything of hell, so like that's what I'm saying. I'm just building the case that hell is a Christian thing.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Definitely we can argue for the fact that hell is are we going Old Testament here, right? So this is this is um this is based on what I read as well. Now, there's a place called Abraham's Bossom, right? Where did you get that from? Abraham's Bossom? It's also

Once Saved Always Saved Debate

SPEAKER_03 20:10

it's mentioned also as well in the script. I forgot where, but a saved person back in the Old Testament would be going to Abraham's Bossom, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Where do you get that though?

SPEAKER_03 20:23

Was it Matthew somewhere? I think there was a story of Lazarus. Yeah, Abraham's bosom.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Where do we get Abraham's bosom?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

So Abraham's bosom is a phrase that shows up in a parable Jesus tells in the Gospel of Luke.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

It's in the story of the rich man Lazarus.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

Lazarus.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Okay, exactly. Okay, explain what that is to us.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Abraham's bosom is basically a symbolic image of being in a place of comfort and rest. In Jewish thought at the time, it implied being gathered to the side of the patriarch Abraham, a sort of peaceful afterlife scene for the righteous. In Jesus' parable, it contrasts with the torment of the rich man, making a point about justice and compassion.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Is Abraham's bosom mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament? And is it connected in any way, shape, or form to Sheol?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

No, the exact phrase Abraham's bosom isn't found in the Old Testament. However, the idea of Sheol, kind of the shadowy realm of the dead, Sheol in the Old Testament is more neutral, just where all the dead go. By the time of Jesus, though, Jewish thought had developed more ideas about a comforting afterlife for the righteous. And that's where the image of resting with Abraham comes in. It's more of a later development, adding layers to what happens after death.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

All right, so the idea of hell as we know it now is not really in the Old Testament, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Exactly. In the Old Testament, you've got Sheel, which is more like a shadowy, quiet place where all the dead go. Good or bad. The fiery, tormenting concept of hell. Really evolves later, influenced by ideas from the intertestamental period and later writings. By Jesus' time, concepts like Gehenna, often used as a warning, correct, emerges closer to what many think of as hell today.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Development. Development, yeah. That is an idea that develops. So the idea of hell is not really in the Old Testament. It develops. The Abraham bosom, Jesus said it. So if you're a Christian, you say, I believe that Jesus said it. Or at least they said that Jesus said that.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

But there's lots of I get what you mean about having a lot of gray areas, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yeah, that's a super great area. Like now of a sudden, when so like when Jesus was born, did that open up hell to be a thing? And then you almost kind of have to start thinking some of that, right? Because it wasn't even a thing then.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

This is based on what I read. So this might not may not be scriptural, but based on what I also read. So what they believed one, they believed is the fact that there's Abraham's bosom in hell. So there's two packets here, right? Now, the saved believers of the Old Testament went to Abraham's bosom. Now, when Christ died, he got the believers from Abraham's bosom and brought them to heaven. Now, what happened was that's in the Bible. It is surreal. I told you, this is what I heard, okay? I'm just telling you what another source I read. So what happened was hell extended, which is now where we get Gehenna. So that's just that's what I've you know done you know some research on, but I understand it is not scriptural and I am pushing it. But it's an interesting aspect to think about.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Tell me everything about Gehenna.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

So Gehenna originally referred to the Valley of Henna, a ravine just outside Jerusalem. In ancient times, that valley had a dark reputation associated with child sacrifice to the god Moloch. By the time of Jesus, it had become a symbol, a metaphor for divine judgment. When Jesus talks about Gehenna, he's hoarding a future punishment. It's not a garbage dump, as some myths suggest, but it's definitely a stark image of what happens if people reject God's ways. In short, Gehenna became the backdrop for early Jewish notions of a final reckoning.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

And that is not in the Old Testament, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Right. Gehenna as a symbol of final judgment or fiery punishment doesn't appear in the Old Testament in that way. The Valley of Hinnem is mentioned as a physical location, but it's not yet a concept of afterlife judgment. The idea of Gehenna as a place of punishment really develops in the intertestamental period and in later Jewish writings. That becomes part of Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Alright, tell me this. Hades is also used in the New Testament has that tie-in, or is that just the Greek flavor of this?

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah. Hades is basically the Greek parallel to Sheol. It's a general realm of the dead. In the New Testament, when you see Hades, it's often just the Greek term used to translate older Jewish ideas about the underworld. But as early Christianity evolved, Hades sometimes carried more moral weight tied to judgment or awaiting final resurrection. So yeah, it's a Greek flavor, but it blends right into the evolving picture of the afterlife.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Alright, and that's an evolving picture, you say, which is interesting. And also, one last thing, Tartarus.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Tartarus, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Tartarus is a unique one. It only pops up once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter, where it describes rebellious angels being cast into Tartarus. In Greek mythology, Tartarus was a deep, gloomy pit below even Hades. The early Christians borrowed that image to emphasize a severe form of judgment, basically a special holding cell for the worst offenders. So it's a borrowed concept used to show just how serious that particular judgment is.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

And let one last thought Second Peter is typically not thought to be actually by Peter, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

That's right. Most modern scholars believe 2 Peter was likely written later by someone using Peter's name, which was a common practice back then. So while it's attributed to Peter, the authorship is debated. It's one of those letters that invites a lot of discussion about how early Christian writings developed.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

That's enough. Okay, so yeah. We have Guiana, we have Sheol, Sheol, Hades, Hades, and Tartarus. I'm gonna throw out Tartarus for me personally. I'm not interested in that at all. Because like I said, I don't, like it said, I don't think 2 Peter was written by Peter. That's a whole different discussion. But Hades seems to be more of a translation or a different flavor of Sheol, like the underworld, right? So then we have like this

Where Is Hell In The Old Testament

SPEAKER_01 26:25

other Guienna, which is like was like a literal place with a bad reputation that gets tied to final judgment. But the thing they kept saying right there, and it is AI, so you need to go do your homework and make sure I'm not lying to you. And I don't want to lie to nobody. But the the the recurring theme was is that in the Old Testament, that idea had not developed. By the time the New Testament comes, there is this idea of hell. So I'm just saying, with that on the table, who would be confident enough to still think that poor Mr. Joe is burning eternally? And which one? Where am I going? Hades, Guena, Tartarus, Sheol? Where am I going?

SPEAKER_03 27:06

I have an interesting perspective. Something came into my mind. So yeah, I'm this a bit like maybe a little bit far-fetched. Remember, we were talking about eyewitnesses, and each of them have a different account on how they saw Christ. Some of them were really eyewitnesses, some of them were not. So let's talk about perspectives. So, in scripture, we can say that some of it are what you call divine revelation, and you can't touch that. Would it be possible indeed to mention, and this is pushing it? I've just got to admit to our viewers, this is pushing it as well. This is based on my own also experience and testimonies of people. I've heard testimonies of people who describe that they went to this particular place, and I compare it to scripture and it describes that. But let's try to apply it into this mindset. What if those people who wrote those particular scriptures have seen a vision of that area, but they just don't know exactly how to describe because they saw it because it's so vast, they were only able to see sections, and in those sections, those are the verbs or the adjectives they used to describe you know hell. That's why we have Tartarus, we have Sheol, we have Hades. It's because these are different people with different points of views and different perceptions of what they saw about hell. But there's a recurring theme like you mentioned. Now I know this is pushing it, but I just want to know how would you approach my perspective on that if I were to say that?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I would just go back more to the I just feel like it's an influence thing where it was where you have Hades because it's influenced by Rome. You have Sheol because it's influenced by that specific brand of Judaism, and you have Tartarus, it was tied to what they say it was something Roman too as well, huh? Yeah. Something like that. That would be my answer is that those are cultural things and that though those ideas come from you know the Jews being blended in culture, and not only just the Jews, but Christianity having to blend into the Gentile world. You gotta think. First 17 years of Christianity, 17 to 20 years, if you do your math, it's kind of it's hard to tell, but it seems like it's very Jewish at the beginning. Pretty much everybody's a Jew. And then when Paul really gets cooking, well, Paul's doing some things in the in that period. Yes, he is. But still, but when he really gets cooking and the they have the Jerusalem Council, and they finally decide, okay, these new guys, they don't have to, new guys are they don't have to get circumcised, they don't have to do jump through all these hoops, they can just have faith in Christ, bam, they can join. The big explosion of Christianity isn't with the Jews, it's with the Gentiles, right? And this is also in a key period time of when a lot of our scriptures are being written, like the New Testament is being written in this time where it's exploding into this whole different culture, right? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, depending on it, don't matter who wrote them. We can that's a whole different conversation. That's a different conversation, but what are they wrote in? They're wrote in Greek.

SPEAKER_03 29:46

New Testament is Greek, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Right. Why weren't they written in Aramaic? Because this is Christianity is already filtering through Roman culture. There's the cultures of the influence through the Roman Empire, all the surrounding people. And and so it's the same thing, the same for me, it'd be the same reasons I think that when you get conquered by Babylon, you take on a couple of Babylons flavor, you take a little bit of their flavor. You get conquered by Rome, you take on a little bit of their flavor. And I think you end up with things like Hades that kind of sort of represents like your original concept, which was Sheol, which is just the underworld, which is still a far shot from what the average evangelical would tell me today about where I'm going when I die.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

Actually, it's interesting you mentioned. I like that the word influences here, right? So, in those types of discussions, I would always try to find the similar theme with all of them, right? So let's say in perspective-wise, I'm not a Roman, I wasn't born back then. So I would see, I would let's say God reveals to me what hell is like. I would describe it in a way differently than they would describe it. Right. And in those variations, the reason, like this is my point of view, at least, the reason I do not feel bothered about them is because I see a reoccurring theme and I realize that influences can truly affect some things, but not in the sense of the authenticity of the nature of heaven and hell, not even the authenticity of God, but rather in the vast experiences of our own lives. The fact that we have those different perspectives or influences about hell just proves how vast the whole thing is. And if I see a recurring thing about, like, say, death, desolation, punishment, I rather not go there. You know what I mean? Like, okay, let's yeah, but I get what you mean, really. I understand the development, the influences, and that's just how I think. Like, it just adds more flavor to it.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Yeah.

unknown 31:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

So you're saying, like, even if it was influenced by other cultures, you're like, this is a bad place, I still would not go there.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

I realize that that's how I would approach it. And I get the fact that you mentioned it's not a scripture, each of them have different ways in saying it, but I really find the reoccurring theme, right? No, and I base it as well on testimonies and people. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like different data triangulation. I would base it on different things, and I would come to that conclusion. But of course, this is what I think. I'm no expert or a theologian, I am just simply a Christian that has done studies, but of course, I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Yeah. Yeah. For me, it's it's um, I don't know. Am I afraid of this place that like for me personally, this is my opinion. Should I be afraid of this place that I think I could watch develop over time? Not as much.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Why so? I'm just curious. Like, no, why so? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Because it's you know, because if I was born before Jesus was alive, then I probably would have just went to Sheol and chilled with the people underground. Oh god, and you know, and so do I think like something cosmic would have had to change in hell, and there's nothing, no verse that tells me that something like that happened.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

But considering, let's say, I would say like a Sheol isn't bad.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

That's the main that's the main point I'm saying. The view throughout the Old Testament is that the place everyone went was neutral. So why is there this bad

Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus Explained

SPEAKER_01 32:55

place all of a sudden? When does that happen and why is it not described? And when they do describe it, it's just like it's fiery. It's like, did it catch on fire? Did Sheol start burning?

SPEAKER_03 33:04

What about like what would you say in connection as to just a sort of segue? There's a scripture that says Jesus went down to hell. If I'm not that's not even in the Bible, that's in like the apocalypse of Peter or something. I think it was because I was taught the Apostles' Creed and it said he went down to hell. Yeah, that ain't got nothing to do with the Bible, though.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

That's that's that's not that's from like the apocalypse of Peter, I think, where Jesus went down to hell. Let's ask.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Yeah, like I'm curious about that because I just want to try to connect things right before we begin, you know.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

All right, there is from somewhere, I don't think it's the Bible, but correct me if I'm wrong, where Jesus goes down into hell and it may be made into one of the creeds. Tell me where that's from.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

You're right. It's not directly in the Bible. That idea comes from what's known as the Apostles' Creed. Yeah, can you go hell? Of course. So that line about Jesus descending into hell developed in early Christian theology. It's based on a concept often called the harrowing of hell, where Jesus, after his death, is said to proclaim victory to the souls of the dead. While it doesn't have a direct verse stating it, it's loosely inspired by passages like 1 Peter, where it mentions Jesus preaching to spirits in prison. The creed took shape over time to express foundational beliefs, even if some imagery is more theological than scriptural.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Interesting. Not really from the Bible. Not really from the Bible.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

But you know, pointing that out as well. What if let's say you mentioned that there's progressions, right? Influences and progressions. Right. You know, what if what if someone were to tell you you should fear it? Because imagine if there were progressions at the time. Wouldn't you think this place called hell would be even worse now, considering the progressions we've had in modern society if we were to apply modern influences?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Some people some people are Are you saying that the world is worse now than it was? Not in the sense of how you heard of the battle of like how did I describe it? Have you ever heard of the Romans going against the world?

SPEAKER_03 34:53

That is a bit far-fetched. Because I'm speaking in the sense of how a modern person would describe it.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Yeah, the world is not no.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

I'm just saying, don't think someone says that. What's on that?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

I don't think the world is any worse than it was back then. In fact, uh, in many ways, I think we're more civilized than we used to be. There used to be brutal wars. There used to be no chance for people. The birth rate for most, you know, most babies died when they were being born, like back in this time you're talking about. You know, a wife would stay basically perpetually pregnant in her young years because most of the babies wouldn't make it, right? And so that was her duty in order to have enough kids and keep the population going. She pretty much stayed pregnant the entire time, right? Because you were more than likely going to lose your kid. People were dying in their 30s, they were going to war constantly. You know, men, it was just assumed a lot of these guys would just that that was their life. As soon as you got to adult age, you would go fight in the Roman army or you would go fight in all these places. There's always been wars. Barbaro. Yeah, there's always been people abusing power. There's always been people abusing um, you know, you know, there's always been people abusing money. There's it's I don't think the world is any worse. I think it's always been pretty consistently like bad.

unknown 36:04

Right?

SPEAKER_01 36:05

So like I don't, I'm not sure there is that development that you're saying. I think it's just bad.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

This is a rhetoric statement, Daniel.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Well, yeah, so yeah, I don't I think you could say hell is developing, like the idea is definitely developing, but I don't really have no proof that it is actually developing, right? Now, if you want to tell me that the world is worse now than it was, I can look at the world and say, I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

I think it looks about probably equally consistently bad as well, even with a sense of technology being there and all of these new things, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Yeah, because then they just take the new things and do bad stuff with it. So, like, as cool as AI is, they're still gonna there's somebody doing something bad with it right now.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

It's funny, we we were talking about human nature, and that's the intrinsic essence of human nature is technically evil in a sense, right? We mentioned the fact that um back then it was still as bad as it is now. So I just find that interesting. We were talking about human nature and we're now circling back to that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yeah. I think that the thing about human nature is interesting too, because that's a whole different argument. I guess for for my deal, let's cut off our you have any last thoughts on

Influence, Fear, And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 37:05

hell? Because that'll what we just did would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

That is a good thing, yes. Yeah. Well, what I would think, I would just apply this in a more you know pragmatic perspective. People shouldn't immediately use that as a threat because you can really get into a lot of mental gymnastics with it. Like what you mentioned, those perspectives, which I truly understand, you know, and considering the fact some people may even argue I'm already living hell here on earth, so what's what's the point, right? Some people, some people are right, I swear. Some people feel nihilism, nihilism, yeah. So I would say the essence of the Christian faith should not be saving them for hell, but saving their life in the sense of really providing them an abundant life of meaning where they are at from now. So, with discussions of hell, there are those many influences, there are those many variables that we are to consider like many grey areas, but to find the similarity of those things is the key to be able to make a final decision and truly check yourselves, the context, and your own influence, because influences do play a big factor. That's what I got from all of this. Influences play a huge factor, culture and the way that you would see things, but also in Christianity, we are told to deny ourselves, take up the cross and follow him. So, are we willing to these hard conversations? It's just me denying myself to be able to hear other perspectives. Are we willing to deny ourselves in our beliefs to be able to find that particular thing we're looking for? So that those are my thoughts. Complicated as it seems, so yes.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Man, and we got a dramatic, it won't show up on the microphone, but a dramatic, yeah, a dramatic lightning strike. He's like, and we have to deny ourselves and have these tough conversations. Clarification from God. That's awesome, man. So that'll that'll wrap up that section. All right, I hope you enjoyed that conversation between me and my buddy Drex. Obviously, this is a really complicated subject. I will be making a full episode on hell, probably a what the hell is going on with hell type situation. And we're gonna really deep dive into those words. Guiana, Sheo, Hades, Tartarus. We're gonna do, we're gonna do our research, and uh, I'll be back soon with a full episode on that. And remember, y'all, like always, don't just take my word for it, don't just take Drex's word for it. Go read the sources, go study, do your own reading, do your own thinking, know why you believe what you believe. If you're watching on YouTube, please like, share, subscribe, and leave comments. All that stuff helps me out a lot. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please rate the show. And I think you can leave comments on there too. But anything you can do to help, please do that. And uh, I'll keep making more Bible related and history related content. Thank y'all so much. We love y'all. We'll see y'all next time, and most importantly, never stop learning.