Voices Unlocked Ep. 14 | The Note on the Door

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Episode 14 of Voices Unlocked features Janine, a Time Matters board director, sharing how she met Lorna and how her childhood was shaped when her stepdad - who was like a father to her - went to prison when she was 12/13. She describes police raids, a lack of safeguarding and support, stigma and ostracisation at school, housing insecurity, and becoming parentified while coping with anxiety, depression, and an eating disorder that went unnoticed because she performed well academically. 

Janine also reflects on the impact and stress of prison visits and later working inside prisons as a substance misuse practitioner, where she saw systemic barriers to rehabilitation and the need to treat people with decency. She explains why Time Matters’ community matters, her current work leading a University of Liverpool justice research centre, training as a counsellor, and ends with hopes to remove stigma and strengthen family support.

Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
00:34 Episode Intro Guest Reveal
01:15 How We Met Again
03:24 Janine Lived Experience
05:04 Police Raid No Safeguarding
06:47 Visiting Remand Prison
08:42 Parentification Teen Pressure
10:14 Stigma Housing Instability
13:26 School Missed Mental Health
14:45 Friends Drift Away
16:18 Guilt Skipping Visits
18:05 What Visits Felt Like
19:29 Prison Visit Searches
20:23 Family Resentment Healing
20:46 Working Inside Prisons
22:26 Rehab Systems Fail
24:02 Detox Wing Reality
25:36 Treat People Humanely
26:55 Full Circle Staff Role
28:43 Time Matters Community
31:52 Owning Your Story
33:04 Career Purpose Path
34:20 Support Networks Self Care
37:23 Advice End Stigma
39:22 Gratitude Wrap Up

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey guys, just a quick disclaimer. As always, we do not claim to be therapists or counsellors. We are just sharing our stories of experiences that we have had from someone with lived experience and someone who is a researcher and a practitioner. When you are listening to these stories, please take care of yourselves as they can be a little bit heavy. There's some funny stories in there as well. Obviously, we are open to positivity in the comment section, please. Like I said, these are all truly based off people's lived experiences. So thank you so much, and I hope you enjoyed the episodes. Love you, bye. Hey guys, welcome back to episode 14 of Voices Unlocked. We hope you enjoyed the previous episode and we will hopefully, fingers crossed, be getting Nanny Carol back in soon. Maybe bring in Melanie while we're at it, but I don't think we can put both of them on the couch together. But all jokes aside, I'm gonna let our beautiful Lorna introduce our amazing guest that we have on today.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

So it's a pleasure to bring in one of the Time Matters um board directors, which is the lovely Janine. Welcome, Janine. Hey, woo! So Janine, yes, round of applause for Janine.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Um how did we meet? Can we think about them? I was watching the one with Sarah before when you mentioned about Seven Deputy, where we met. And I was thinking, so me and you met, I think, in 2015, in you were at an event with young people in your previous role, and they were sharing journey stories. It was at Hope University. Yes. And I went under my old many jobs ago role when I used to manage a drug and alcohol recovery service. And I remember listening to those young people and thinking, one day I want to, when I've got more bit more free time, you know, it's like running a small charity. Yeah, I really do. I want to go and volunteer because it was such a passion of mine to have support for people going through that experience because I have lived experience of a parent in prison growing up. And I remember thinking one day I will end up in some capacity helping out. How mad. And we had a chat afterwards because your daughter was only very young at the time and you were just completing your PhD, I think.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

I was 20, yeah. I would have.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

It might be a little bit early than that.

unknown 2:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

When did yeah, it might have been a little bit earlier than that because when did I complete? I completed my PhD in 2014. I started it in 2011.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

It could have been early then, because I was there for a long time. Um so then in lockdown, I remember reading in a local paper. Um, it was um a dad who'd left prison and it was an interview with him saying that he'd had his children had some support while he was in prison. And it was a feature on him, and it mentioned because I didn't know about time matters with you at the time, and it mentioned Time Matters. So I just emailed off the back of that thinking, well, there's my sign to get back in touch because I'd changed jobs, had a bit more time, and I was itching to get back into like third sector volunteering again. And then I emailed you. That's and then we had a um a Zoom call when we managed to figure it out eventually. Back in the days when everyone was like, How does Zoom work?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Yeah, full teams with this thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah, and then when it eventually came up, and I said, Oh my god, Lorna, I said we met years ago because I didn't know that it was you running time matters.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

How mad is that no, honestly, it is, it's like all the pathways and all the connections and how you know who you end up working with and goes back to that whole just always being open-minded and open to opportunities. But yeah, so you just said so you've got lived experience. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah, so growing up, I'm from a very small town in the West Midlands. Um, so my I had a s uh my mum and a stepparent um got into some bother, let's say, and I had a uh my stepdad went to prison when I was I can still remember the date. Wow. April 10th, 2002. Um so I was 13, 12, uh 2002, how old was I? 13. And you lived with your stepdad? Yeah, I lived with my mum and stepdad, and my younger sister and younger brother, uh well, younger stepbrother. Um, I've got seven brothers and sisters, but it's complicated dynamics. But I lived with my younger sister and my younger stepbrother, and my stepdad went to prison. He was remanded before then to have quite a lot of different police involvement and different things and no support at all. And were you close to stepdad? Yeah, he was my dad growing up. He was a huge part of my upbringing. He's the reason I ended up going into like education and really thriving at school. He was really clever. Maths was his kind of forte.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

And you're very numbers, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 4:31

He taught me trigonometry at primary school before I even went to high school. Did you really? Um, so for me, it was like because my mum is um not as academic, she goes to dyslexia as well, so she struggles. So he would help me out of all that kind of stuff growing up.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Wow. Um so you had a great bond with stepdad, and then you're 12-ish, and he goes into custody. What did that feel like for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

A mixture of things, really. It'd been a build-up for a few years. It felt like the kind of crescendo of what was going to eventually was inevitable.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Um, so it'd been quite complicated a few years. I at the time I was just angry, and I was angry at my mum, was angry at him. Um, I should remember coming home before all this happened. I remember coming home from school with a note on the door from the police saying, Go next door.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Really?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Because they yeah, they'd raided the house and just kind of like nailed it back together. We had no one coming to school to tell us.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

So, like the door had gone in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

And then it kind of been like nailed shut because they'd broke the door, obviously. I had a younger brother and sister at primary school and I was at high school. No one told us at school anything had happened. Both were in custody at that point. Wow. When we came home from school, it's just saying go next door. Luckily, we've got a very lovely neighbour.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

But that was the that was the uh safe garden that was put in place, like basically just going and there'd been other times before that police been in and kicked us in the garden while they were so when you you saw that note, did you know that they were in custody?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

What like what we went next door and then our lovely neighbour, Linda, was like, come in guys, and then explain what had happened. And then my mum was released later on that night from memory. It's all a bit of a blur that time.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Wow. But I think anger's a real normal emotion. Like if there are a lot of people that you speak to, I think anger comes up because you're kind of feeling like, you know, why have you put us through this even though it's not intentional?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Sorry, but just the whole police department and please go next door. Please go next door. Go next door. Please go next door. Where the hell is the safeguarding and well-being for the kids? And the carney the new kids were in the house otherwise, they wouldn't have left a note.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

And used you're in school at the time.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

I was in year, I think I might have been year seven or year eight, because then he got remanded into custody, didn't come back out. We didn't see him again in outside life. And then he was remanded down south. So that was a journey itself, even trying to get to that visit. Oh my god. Or like in the back of a car, probably too many people in the car travelling down. My mum didn't drive, so her friend gave us a lift.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

So you yeah, so you're really kind of relying on neighbours, friends, communities.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

He was at a big remand prison, Blakehurst. Right. Um, like really south from where we lived. So we ended up getting in the back of this car and turning up, and then eventually got his sentence, and then he was I think he was still in I think from memory he was in Blakenhurst and eventually got moved to a local prison later on. And and and was in for several years, was it? A few years. He because I think he did two-thirds of a sentence on good behaviour. I think he got less than he should have got, um, considering the crime he'd done. Um, but I remember when he first went in, my mum came back from court that day. And I remember I'm I'm a huge empath, and I'd only ever seen TV shows of prison and stuff. And I remember just crying myself to sleep thinking, you won't have any blankets tonight? I'm not gonna have a blanket. Like I'm such a blind without a blanket. Yeah, I remember just being so upset and like thinking he'd be so alone and like in a vulnerable position. Like, and there's some, you know, when you see on TV, I always think, oh, what's he gonna be like with all these other people? And it's a worry.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

I'm just waiting for my mum to do a Michael Scho feel for me. Probably don't think I go off. I've always gonna see my mum's and it's gonna be everything together out of jail.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Did you open to do a Michael Schofield for me? But I think you make a really good point about, you know, until you're in that situation, your only point of reference is like TV shows, and you mentioned that in an earlier episode, and and then worrying so much about the the person's well-being. I mean, you know, when when I say that I do the work that I do, people are like, oh, you know, you it's it's so hard for the kids, and I'm like, Yeah, but the kids are worrying about the parents, yeah. That's what the kids are worrying about, not themselves.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Yeah, I I become parentified quite young and had to like help out and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

And I was gonna ask that then because you've just mentioned that you were the two siblings you were living with were younger. Like, what was that like? Like putting yourself into like naturally, you're not putting yourself into that role, you're just your brain automatically goes there, I'm guessing. That would need to be.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

I've been in it for a few years at that point because of the circumstances we were living in. So, and that caused some tension between my mum me and my mum, like blurred responsibilities, and um so for for quite a few, and as a teenager, you know, I was going through trying to be a teenager, exactly. I was going through my own mood swings, and I was probably insufferable as well to live with. So there's a lot of anger, resentment, hormones, and then there was no one I knew else at school going through the same thing. I had f I had friends who had I knew their families were involved in criminality, but not necessarily in jail. Yeah. Um, but I didn't really have anyone I could relate to. I couldn't really talk to my brother and sister about some of the things I was feeling because we all had our own relationship with him. So we were all feeling different things at different points. Um, and I've spoken about this before, but it's a bit like grief. Um, you've all got your own relationship with that person, so and that ebbs and flows in terms of what you're going through with processing that. And when someone goes away, it is a disenfranchised grief. Of course. Because it's still a loss, and you don't know when that person's coming back out. But it's not always a loss that people are sympathised with because you think, well, they deserve to be there, they've they've done what they've done. Yeah. But then it's really difficult to then be validated for how you're feeling because everyone goes, Well, of course, you know, he's you do the crime, you do the time. And you don't have any much anyone really giving you any sympathy for that or can relate. And then it after you went to jail, it got published in our paper, hit our address. Um, not our house number, but the address. It's a tiny street. So everyone knew not rocket science too. Everyone knew it was us. We were with um local authority housing at the time, like a housing association, and I remember we had an awful housing officer that says, My mum, you'll never get another house with us. Like she was awful. Eventually, we did, luckily.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

But but almost like saying, you know, you you're now gonna suffer with your housing. With your kids and your children. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

I remember that vividly. Like my mum was panicking because we need to move. They were like, You can't stay here and you're never gonna get one with us. We eventually managed to get another house.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

That must have been terrifying for your mum.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, it was a lot to go through and a lot of change and and were you aware of that going on at the time when you were a young child?

SPEAKER_01 11:00

That you know, you you you were housing was vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah, because I remember looking at other things, we were looking at flats above like these other shops we'd lived in before. I remember going through that process of helping her try to find somewhere to live again, because we were it's like almost like a pair being the parents, I guess. Yeah. So I was very much with her through that process.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And and do you know what's interesting listening to you? You you're 12, 13, 14, whatever at this time. And I remember Liv at 13, and I remember the responsibility on your shoulders, uh, different kinds of responsibilities, um, um in terms of like what to take in for your mum. And you know, you you you had a lot to deal with as teenagers. My mum left a whole house.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

I remember me the third time my mum went away, she went away with she ended up going away. Um and she had a house. And she had two dogs, two really big dogs, two gorgeous big dogs. Um, loved them to pieces, and all that and bella. And the she just went, and the the house was just there, like it was left, and the dogs are there, so I had to try and find somewhere for the dogs to go, and my auntie ended up taking the two dogs, and then it was just like this house is left of the things in it with other with other stuff in it, and the landlord was just it was obviously privately rented. So it was like it was all a bit like it was a whole house. What do I do with this? Yeah. And I remember being younger and just I mean, at the age I was, I kind of went a little bit off. I wouldn't say off the rails, but I got a little bit rebellious at like that age, which is natural. But I remember the the the weight of the responsibility on my shoulders of what am I supposed to do? Because I felt like people were looking at me for answers that I physically couldn't give you because I don't know, because I'm 13. My early because you're literally 13, you're trying to work out how the world works. Literally, I'm literally working out what time my next lesson is. Never mind. It's a lot of shock, it's a lot of spent. It's a shock, it's like a it's a it's a shock to the system, but I couldn't imagine, like, I'm an only child, so I mean my heart like goes out to you of like having to think about siblings in that position as well. Like, I couldn't yeah, I don't know. I think we're so confused.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

I think we were worried that you know, social service would get involved and then we'd be taken care. So I was, you know, was helping keep the upkeep of the house and everything to make sure we were, you know, if that came to it that we were okay. Because obviously we didn't we didn't want that to happen.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Yeah. Um so it and you didn't get offered support at that time. No, did you know?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Did school know? Did you tell your teachers, did you want your teachers to know? I don't know if they knew it later on, years later, I feel like there was something said about that then maybe they'd been in touch and they were keeping an eye on us from a distance in school. But because I was academically competent, I never got kind of like, hey, this might need some other support because I was doing well at school, because natural I just enjoyed school. That was my escape from home life growing up. So for me, I was always like getting the grades. So then they didn't really have any concern because I was achieving. Because your grades look good, yeah. But I was struggling massively with my mental well-being, hugely in my teenage years. Um, I had an eating uh had a really bad eating disorder and like struggled with my mental health, had depress like chronic depression, and was really troubled, but that never got picked up.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Because your grades were good.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah, because I didn't really do anything about it from my understanding. So we didn't have any intervention like that.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Looking back, what do you wish had been put in place? Do you wish a social uh worker had knocked on the door, or do you wish that something else had been put in place? What do you what do you wish would have happened?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

I kind of wish maybe I don't know. I thought about it a lot because I thought it was my everyone kind of knew anyway, but no one really said anything. You know, like friends.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

No one just asked you.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

No one asked me, no. Or you'd have people like, you know, would hear about it and be like, oh yeah. You'd naturally see that friends stop hanging out with you. Or like or like the parents who'd be like, you can't play out together and stuff, you know, because they just see it and think, oh, you just So there was like a slow ostracisation of you and your siblings.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

It's like a slow bane, isn't it? Like you notice like people who you used to play out with all the time, I can't come out today. Oh, my mum won't let me come out, oh I can't come round, I can't do this, and it just slowly gets to the point where you just aren't in contact anymore.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Because when we moved, I was concerned about that moving there, thinking everyone's gonna find that out, and then we're not gonna be able to make any friends here either. But it was that kind of okay. We had a few years on our own there before we came back out of prison, and we managed to get some.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

So what was that like like moving? Like, because obviously you were moving journey, and obviously you've just lot like you you get even someone who who you'd had an amazing bond with, a great relationship, who you've got a great relationship with, who who is your b your dad. And then, you know, the life that you've you you know you've you've got there of going to school and and things like that, and then having to move all that with did you did you change schools?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Well, luckily I stayed at the same school. We just moved to it's a very small town. Because we moved to the other side of town, yeah, but in a different area. Yeah. So then it's happening to like renegotiate your identity a little bit and explain, like, you know, we're on our own with mum at the minute, but we have got stepdad at some point coming out.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

And did you feel like you had to keep it a secret in case people judged you or trying to think?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

I can't. It was a bit of a weird time. I remember we had I can't remember specifically that because it's such a blur to time. I remember we had times when I didn't go and visit because me and mum had an argument, and I can't pretend and pretend everything's all fine. That's not me. So I'm feeling really guilty about that, thinking you'll think I'm upset with him, and it's not, I'm upset with her.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

And you just didn't want to spend that particular day with her.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, and like there was just other stuff going on in the background that I just thought I'm not gonna pretend. Um, and I I look back on that with a lot of guilt because I was like we were writing letters to each other and like cards and stuff, but I thought he's gonna think that's about him and it wasn't. And and I'm I'm quite self-righteous, so I'm not gonna do anything I don't want to do.

SPEAKER_03 16:49

But I think that also like the empath in you of you feeling like I don't want him to think it's and you you're putting yourself in his like you're thinking about him before thinking about yourself. But I think at times like that when I know that when you're in that period of time, you butt your butt heads with people. I'd I was I was eight when my mum first went away, but the third time I did butt heads a lot because me nan didn't want to go and see her, and that was that was her choice, and you know, I butt heads about different things with different people, and I get that of I was always the one to kind of put it to the back and just think, no, let me just forget about it for now. But I shouldn't have done that. I wish I was more like you in that sense of being like, well, this is how I'm feeling right now in this moment, and and I don't want to sit there and and and do this journey with you, or I don't want to spend the day with you, and I need this time for me because I'm not happy with what's happened, and I think you putting yourself first in that position, you shouldn't feel guilty for it because you've done what's best for you in that moment, and it you've got to be strong-minded to do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

It's hard though, it's hard.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Your kids, you're like you've got to be straight so strong-minded.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

I probably at the time you probably didn't feel like you were that young, but looking back, you know, like 13, that's nothing, it's literally nothing. Did you did you enjoy it? As I'm probably the wrong choice of words, but how did you find prison visits?

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Well, I remember mum went first without us, so she could suss it out, like what's how similar it works to kill. And then I remember us going, she kind of explained it, but no one in there when you go, I always talk about this that no one professionally tells you what to expect as a young person going in, and you're treated like you're a like a criminal. You search the same way, and like like your children, yeah. Like it's so violating in other ways the searches they do on you, and like it just feels so humiliating in other ways as well. Like abrupt, yeah, really abrupt. There's no kind of I hope it's improves in recent years for visitors, but it felt so like jarring.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Yeah, and I think it I think in certain circumstances it's improved in the way because mean me nan, you'll see it, you'll see it in the episode. But she mentioned um when she did the exact same as what your mum's done. So me nan went in for me. But my nan was like, I asked all the questions she just did that day. She went, I asked everyone, every professional. I asked Melanie, and then she said that she wanted to see the area, what was the fitter to do there? How are people gonna be with her? But I think the searches, it's the searches that are just so violating. And so me went with my auntie once, and she just she'd had a little boy, she had our sonny, uh or was it our soul? It was one of them. Um the searchers are snappy. I was about to say that. Yeah, yeah, and I I remember standing there going in utter shock while he was a queue, because of the way the way the establishment was, you were in a this long queue, so you'd be waiting at a gate, and then there'd be this long queue from the stairs, and then this room, which was like a box, and in this box, people would be getting searched in four corners, but then you'd there'd be a queue in the middle, so there'd be four officers in each tab, but there'd be a queue in the middle, and I was standing in this middle queue with loads of people in front of me, loads of people behind me, and this person just picking up my baby cousin and just starting searching up.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah, and I just I was just like I remember seeing that as well, and then that queue as well. There's never any time limit on it, you don't know how long you're gonna be stood there. No, it can be raining, you can go outside the wall, you're in like a yeah, the heat. It was always that kind of like it's like queuing for a at Alton Towers, but without the joy at the end of it. Yeah, it was like that you don't know how long it's gonna take. I think it's a lot of stress. Yeah, it was, and looking back, you know, I was going for my teenage years, and I think I had a lot of resentment between me and my mum at the time, but looking back, she was doing the best she could, and she achieved so much for herself and was so strong throughout that. And like growing up, I think we butted heads a lot, but now we're older, we've definitely got a much better relationship.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah, yeah. You can you can understand a lot more in hindsight, and you with maturity you can realise what struggles people are going through. So, what I what I absolutely love about your story is that you you went through that as a child and then you went on to work inside prisons. Honestly, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Um do you remember my face on the train? We were on the train and we were going to a conference and Janine just turned around and told me that like she she worked in a prison, or she or or you had, or you was, or one or the other. And I just remember looking thinking, wow, she's hardcore. I remember thinking, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

What was your role in prison then? So I was a substance misuse practitioner, so supporting people with drug and alcohol addiction. So I was in the charity organisation. Um, but the reason how I ended up working there is because when I left for university, so I left as soon as I could to go to university. Originally went to study law, realized that isn't what I wanted to do because I wanted to be um criminal law was the only area I was interested in, but ethically I was just in a bit of a yeah, didn't know how to that was gonna make that work for me. And then I was like, I want to do rehabilitation and work with people. So I ended up changing to forensic psychology and criminal justice. And then through that, I started volunteering. So I volunteered at a local charity supporting people with drug and alcohol addiction that used creative arts as the muffin for helping people, and it was so volunteering. At Homeless Outreach Service, and then I trained as a mentor with probation voluntarily as well. And then I did all these different things. But when I graduated, I got a job in the drug and alcohol recovery service because I've been volunteering there for ages as well and working, and I was a key worker. But then I started my master's in criminal justice, and then I found a job in the prison because I thought I want to try and work in a prison environment doing the same kind of role. Amazing. And so I'd I'd seen it and I thought, you know what, I'm going to apply. Um, but I only lasted six months because the environment was just not for me. In terms of in terms of the rehabilitation element and um what I believe needed to happen. It was so old ashrewing, I'll be honest, working in that environment. You've got the best will in the world, but you've got systems that aren't designed to support you in achieving those outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

I think you're right. I think it's often not individuals, it's systemic failure, isn't it? It's not there's so many people, you know, there's good prison officers, there's good charity workers, there's good social workers, but systemically the system can be so tricky to actually do the things you want to do.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

I think that's the thing as well. What people like, I mean, especially in the role I'm in with like residential support work, uh when when you're in like different companies, like Michael, I love the company I work for. I I love my job, I love my home, and I love the kids that I work with. I think it's it's it's it's a great environment. But uh I think people misunderstand it as like you go into the job and think it's uh like the individual, like you said. Or like yeah, I always say it's never the kids or it's never the person, it's it's not, it's uh it's how higher ups and other things and what we've got access to doesn't cooperate properly, and that's the soul destroying part of it when you can't get the support you need for people, people who are away or in the time or in certain establishments, and this is like the conditions that they're living in or what they're going through at the time.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah, so when you were in the prisons and you saw people, you know, struggling with addiction, what what do you think that they needed and what couldn't they get?

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Oh, you all love this research for you. So when I was in there, um, so I used to deliver group work and one-to-one support across the whole prison estate, so it didn't matter if the person's defence, we worked with everyone. There would be risk assessment in that as well, and you might have to work in pairs if it was, you know, a high-risk person you're working with. But there was one particular wing where people were detoxing, and they were always like, you know, when someone's because I've worked in drug and alcohol addiction for years, when people are detoxing, they need more access to showers, they need more comfortable environments. If they're gonna have any chance of success, it's a physical detox.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

So I ran a two-week program and I had to be able to evidence it. So I ran a two-week program and gave them more reflective diaries to do at the end of the day, and they're like, You're giving us work, miss. I was like, Yes, because this is gonna help eventually. Um, so I ran a program to kind of work through their feelings, what was going on for them, and we tried to then we put on a wing where there's more access to showers and stuff as well. Um, and at the end of that, I wrote I was fresh out of uni, so I was still in that academic mode, and I wrote this whole report at the end of it to say like this is the the start of it, the end of it, and how people had experienced it. And I remember my manager at the time, so I wasn't expecting this type of level of like detail, but this is great. I'll send it back up to you know our area managers and stuff, and hopefully, like it improves how we're working with some of it. But um what was your question about the addiction?

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Yeah, just like what did you see that people needed and what what humans about what people are not?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Treating people like humans, first and foremost, in that environment for me is you know, the you know, prison is is the punishment. It's not meant to be anything additional to that. The restriction of liberty is a person's punishment. They're not meant to have a harder time in there, is my belief. It's meant to rehabilitate and help people to not end up back there. Yeah, exactly. So I strongly believe that we're there to help in any way. Maybe it's education, it's skills, it's their mental health, it's you know, supporting for addiction. Yeah. So we used to have our own recovery wing and people could apply to come to it. It was always oversubscribed because people wanted to come because we had a lot more less time out of cells and you know, there was proper like group work and we covered all kinds of psychosocial stuff. It wasn't just addiction, it was like conflict management, you know, dealing with emotions. Um, but for me, it's treating people as humans. On our badge, you say, you know, treat everyone with decency and respect. And, you know, that isn't what I experienced in some areas. Um I I felt for the people I was working with, you know, it's someone's dad, it's someone's brother, it's someone's son, they're there. And that's how you treat them as a human first and foremost. I never really, you know, I didn't need to know what they were there for unless they wanted to tell me because that had already been risk assessed before I go. I'm there to look at their addiction and help them along around that. And if they want to tell me about why they're in there, that's up to them. But treating people as human beings rather than a number.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

To what did that feel like, having once been a child who visited a prison to then becoming a member of staff?

SPEAKER_00 27:01

It was it was a it was a weird experience. It was very it felt very full circle. Um, and in some ways, I remember thinking about when I first thought he went to prison, he wouldn't have a blanket. It wasn't true. He did have a blanket the best beds, but it wasn't as like dire as I expect as I thought. Um, but it you know what, in a way, it felt like I don't know, I because I'd worked in addiction before as well, and a lot of the clients I used to work with, I'd never disclose my background unless they directly asked me. But they're like, oh, that's why you don't judge us, like you just support us because you've got some lived experience in some way. And I think I felt like that was my way of I guess giving back in a way. Not that I felt like I had anything to give back for, but I felt like I fell into all the volunteering I did. I didn't really choose it. I ended up just falling into it for people that I knew, and then I ended up making a career out of it. Like I just naturally when I was growing up, I didn't think I'd end up in those arenas at all because I was so resentful. Yes, and I couldn't understand adults' choices. But then I ended up volunteering and realized that actually I really enjoy this. I'm a people person. Yes. Um and it quickly so social. And it quickly became as I actually I actually really enjoy this if it's you know, and and people are, you know, I'm supporting people in however they need, and to see people, you know, develop and grow in confidence is amazing. Oh, if you're a part of that, and you know that Lorna, working at time matters, to be part of anyone's journey in that way, it's their work. But if you can help provide space for people to develop, and I felt like that was how I ended up there.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

I didn't I ended up then going back to the other company I worked for before as the manager when I left, and then I was there for another six, seven-ish years until obviously the wider sector funding cuts came in from government, and and then our paths kept crossing, and then you eventually started volunteering for time matters, and then you eventually helped me, you know, with your amazing brain that you've got with much more of the management and the fundraising side and the the governance side of things. But what what's that like for you being part of like the the tapestry of time matters?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

I love it. I always say whenever I come to stuff, I get so emotional in a way of like because I always say if I'd had access to something like this growing up, I I wonder where I'd be. In other ways, um I don't regret anything because it's made me who I am, but I wonder how teenage me would have developed differently, or maybe have had support earlier with some of the things I struggled with into my 20s because there was no support, you couldn't talk about these things. And I always think, I love being part of everything that you do in terms of like it's amazing. And this, if if we could clone time matters and put them everywhere, and we just need loads of funding. Um, how amazing would it be for people going through this to have a community of people that just get it without having to talk about why your dad's in jail or your mum, you know, you don't have to talk about any of that, it's just that's already a given. Yeah, it's just talking about anything else that's that. No, it's but that's so true. That comes up a lot. It's you say that, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Yeah, it's like it's creating that community of people who just you get it, you know what I mean. I can just walk into a room and I've got it, she's got it, he's got it in the corner over there, even she gets it round the corner. Like you just you need that situation because there's nothing more and I struggle, I struggle with this sometimes of where if I'm going somewhere, let's say, professionally, or in a that I put myself in, say if I put myself in a situation of where I'm getting to like know different people, or like maybe sometimes I want to look for funding for projects or things like that off my own back. Having to to put Well well I want it because my mum was injured and it's just like such a do you know what I mean? I don't want to have to walk into a room and and I need the need to explain that. And when I see kids as well, like I remember I was mentoring um who I need to go and see, actually, which I am gonna go and I am gonna go and see. Um when I was mentoring, I always just say to them when they come in the room, what you want to what you want to talk about today, and or what you want to do today, and they'd automatically go and like try and mention the parents or something like that. And I'd say, You don't want to talk about that today, you don't have to, you know, like you can if you want. You can if you want, you don't have and nine times out of ten they would end up talking about it, whether that was five-minute conversation about it, whether it was the whole session. Yeah, but it's like I made sure that they knew I'm here to support you, but I'm I'm here to support you. I don't need to know anything else.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

And you often say when you come to time matters, you say like, I always feel like, you know, like I'm one of the kids in the in the group because it you come back to like your 11, 12-year-old self. You often say that.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah. I don't know, it's weird. I it's I feel like I'm back there, but not in a bad way, but in like kind of like I guess living out what I would have done myself at that age. I'm 37 now, but I'm still like it's something that never really leaves you.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Um, and I'd say the young people at Time Matters, they're so inspiring. Like for the first time, I had a job interview last year, and it's the first time I mentioned about having a parent in prison in that job interview, because it felt relevant for that job. And I never would have probably done that previously if it wasn't for some of like meeting some of the the amazing young people there that like own it and but don't use it as you know what I mean. Like they use it as like almost as I know it's it's part of who we are, but it's not doesn't define us to our story, but for me it was the first, and I felt like wow, that's the first time I've I've actually mentioned that and felt safe too. And I know I wouldn't get judged. Yeah, it's always been something like before when I moved to Liverpool, I used to work in bars, and for years people go, Oh, you're posh you, because I haven't got a Scouse accent. And I'm like And when they get to know me, like wow, I didn't understand I didn't know that was any of your background battles. Because people just make a judgment, don't they? Of course. I think I've always not allowed it to seep in because I've always thought people might judge for their own reasons and I've always You've always felt like you had to keep it a secret. Yeah, and because I've worked so hard on all the things that I've done to achieve all the things I have. I've always felt like I didn't want I was so scared of that being taken away if someone knew something that might not be favourable.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Like you're not sudden suddenly. Good enough. And yet you're flying with your career.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Like where where where are things at now for you? So for so now I so the interview I mentioned was last summer. I was and now I'm a centre manager for the Centre for People's Justice, which is based at the University of Liverpool. So it's a five-year research centre, and we work with seven universities and about 40 other partners.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Unreal.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

To basically um it's community-led research with lived experience, but but but making sure that you know, improving like public legal education and making sure that law works for other people and like improv like joining all those dots up. It's it felt like a call in for me when I found the job advert. I was like, I wanted to get back inside Avena again, and it it, you know, it's a trauma-informed research centre we're building as well to really protect the research's well-being, too. And I've gone back to uni again to do another master's, and I'm now training to be a counsellor and psychotherapist as well. It's been a lot this last year. I want to do when I come back from Australia. I need to get it. It's intense, but it's it's it's amazing, and it just all kind of fitted together last year. Like again, uh on Sarah's interview, she was saying about you about timing of things and serendipity, and it was just all aligned last year. It's crazy. It's been a it's been hard.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

But speaking of work hard, you work hard. Speaking about that, uh I can't say the word, say the word, serendipity. That one, yeah. Speaking of sorry, I can't, I'm not even gonna try it. Do you know what I mean? I'm not even gonna put myself in the position to say it. Um but speaking on that, like timing of things and meeting people, like just a very, very quick one. Sorry, microphone, I'm gonna end up throwing it over the couch in a minute. Um, when me and Janine, I can't pinpoint the first time I actually met you because we've had so many like little small times we've met. Um, but I personally was going through a really hard time with my mum, and I'm not gonna like touch upon it too much of what was going on with my mum. But I was struggling bad, uh really, really bad. And within like two weeks of even knowing Janine, like the person she is as a human being herself. Like, there's been plenty of times I've messaged her on Instagram being like, have you got any advice? Have you got any help? And I mean five minutes, like this the messages and sitting there, five minutes, she's sending me things for advice, different uh organisations I can get in touch with, is the anything I need off here, and that was just within like a few weeks of even knowing and you still do that for me to like this day, and like the way when time the way time matters is, and Janine obviously being a massive part of it, it's like people like Janine and Time Matters that like there's things like I'd say to you that I wouldn't even say to my closest friends, do you know what I mean? Because you get it, and it's that thing of talking about you get it, but the time and I met you, and like me mum's doing very good now, actually, and it's good to hear because of some of the things that you sent me that I got in touch with um and that we work together with. Like, she's going to she's going to something that you'd sent over to me, and it's going really well for her, and she's doing amazing. But even that, like, I wouldn't have known about any of that if it weren't for you. So it makes me think like, where would I be now with it all, or where would my mum be with it all? It's the people you see.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

It's just chance conversations, isn't it? Because I'm always a lot, you know, because of my background, a lot of people get in touch if they've got yeah parents or loved ones they're worried about in different ways. And I'll, if there's anything I can find, because I've had so many jobs, yeah. I've got connections across different organizations. And I can kind of pull, like, oh, I know someone that might be able to help them, or I'll message someone else and then they'll send me some information.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

And well, it's just the it's the way you do it though. It's not like it's not like oh I'll get back to it in a minute, or this you you're there straight away, do you know what I mean? But then you're checking on my mental health as well. Like, it's more like, yeah, I can do this for you, but are you good? Like, how are you dealing with it? Not many people do that, and that's obviously the empath in you, because you're like me.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Yeah, I think as well with supporting people, the people that are supporting others often they get overlooked. Yeah, and I'm very aware of that.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

That we're all trying, you know, to support our loved ones and making sure you're brilliant at that because you always say to me, Lorna, when are you booking in your counselling? Every time you see not with me, but yeah, after yourself. No, but it's it's right, and I think you do. You always say say to me, like, what are you doing to look after yourself? Because you know that like I'm worrying about everybody else. And it's it's it's nice to have people like that in your life that are like, what are you doing for you? If you could, I mean, these podcasts go so fast. If you could put a wish out there for for children with a parent in prison or for families going through this, like either a wish or a piece of advice, like what would you put out there?

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Oh I I'd wish for the stigma to be removed completely. Nice. We're not the actions of our parents. I do believe that. Like just because a parent's gone to prison also doesn't mean it's bad make them a bad parent.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Or, you know, or if if two, you know, if parents can't get on, they have to part doesn't mean they're bad parents. It's just that they're together aren't great. But it's about not judging us by the actions of others. We're our own people with our own dreams and wishes and lives. And you know, we always talk about offenders when do they stop being offenders when they've served their time, but then we're carrying this weight and we never even committed the crime. Exactly. You didn't even do it. Which doesn't even make any sense to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

But the stigma and discrimination is still real, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

And there's a lot of support, you know. I mean I've worked with people in prison, and there's a lot of support around them, but I still think there's more could be done for the wraparound for family support, you know, because say you come out of prison, go back to what you know, they've they've done the time, come out, and then they're expected to adapt back into normal life, normal, whatever normal is. But then the family have rightly got mixed emotions about that, and there needs to be more support around that, that reintegration to support them back into it. And just that you can be any I do believe that you can be anything you want to be with the right support and opportunities, and that don't let that define you in any way. It's just what happens. I I love that.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Don't let I that's beautiful. That's gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

I'm a I've got uh, you know, the adverse childhood experiences, I've got nine out of ten of them.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Yeah, like and I just think, and you know, when I just literally the manager of a law centre, about to become a psychotherapist, master's degrees coming out of your exactly, and it's just you know, with the right, you know, support's important having a support network around you.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

It's hard on your own, but yeah, there are people and services like Lorna's that want to support them as well.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah, no, beautiful. Well, we always wrap up with things that we're grateful for.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Grateful for so you need to give us something that you're grateful for today. Grateful. I'm grateful for our relationship and how we met. Like, I'm for me, I just love to be involved because for younger me to have this in experience to be able to indirectly still have I don't know, support people that are going through it now still. Yeah, I'm just grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

I love that. I love that. Am I next? You go next. Go on, you go next.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

I'm I'm gonna say I'm grateful for the development of Time Matters. I s I've been working in this field for 20 years, but I set Time Matters up in 2017. So 2027, next year it's gonna be our 10-year anniversary. And party!

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, no, seriously.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Well, yeah, I was gonna say conference, but party is also fine. Um or both. Um yeah, I'm grateful for the fact that it has been, there's still a lot to learn. We've still got a long way to go. Um, but I'm grateful for the fact that, you know, we're we're still here and we're still helping families, and I just get so much out of it. Not just like, oh, you know, it it doesn't just make me feel good about myself that I'm helping people, but so many people help me. It's like the way you help me, the way like one of the nans the other day was texting me and saying, you know, I'm just thinking about you, what you're going through with your mum and stuff like that. I'm going through my own journey. Um I get so much support. And I'm so grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

I love that. Um I'm grateful for I'm grateful for this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

I am. I'm grateful for something that we've envisioned for so long and what we've created, and the people who watch it and support us every single time, every episode, every Monday. And I'm just happy to be able to give people a platform to sit here and tell their story and tell their point of view, and just being able to give them a safe space and enable an environment to feel like they can do that without feeling pressured. I think this setting itself, because Liverpool Podcast Studios, thank you so much. Um the setting that it is, it's just so relaxed here, and you know, you forget that with filming sometimes, and it just becomes a conversation, and having these conversations and being able to be a part of people's stories and being able to be a to be a listener and learn more about guests who do come on who I've known for years.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

But you hear different things when people come on as a guest, you go, I've known this person for like 10 years, and I've only just heard that bit of their story.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

So, yeah, I'm grateful for the podcast. But as always, thank you so much, Daniel. No, we need to get you tickets with every guest. We've got to touch the we're gonna see a multitude of different guests come on. There'll be repeats, it'll be like an episode of Holly Oaks at one point. But no characters. You will they'll literally be, we'll have plot lines and everything. But um, as always, if there's any questions that you'd like to ask, any stories you want to share, um maybe a little bit of advice of what we've experienced and gone through, our email will be at the bottom. The bottom. The bottom. At the bottom. Um, and as always, thank you so much for listening and hope to see you next week. Thank you. Love you, thank you. Bye.