Voices Unlocked Ep. 15 | Turning Lived Experience Into Change

Email us at voicesunlocked26@gmail.com

In episode 15 of Voices Unlocked, the hosts welcome Abby, who shares how she found Time Matters after her mum went to prison and how she became responsible for supporting her younger sister and grandmother while coping with the shock and emotions of a parent’s sentence. Abby discusses the importance of taking things day by day, seeking support, and allowing space for anger, embarrassment, and guilt.

The conversation covers contributing to the short film That Girl to raise awareness about children affected by parental imprisonment, speaking at conferences including with prison inspectorates about improving visits, and consulting on police training to make arrests more child-friendly. Abby reflects on therapy, mental health, independence, and resilience through shared experiences, and the episode ends with gratitude and encouragement to reach out for support.

Chapters:
00:00 Disclaimer And Care
00:34 Meet Abby And The Crew
03:15 How Abby Found Support
05:49 Turning Pain Into Film
11:07 Watching It With Mum
16:03 Advice For Other Kids
17:29 Prison Visits Reality Check
22:32 Speaking Truth To Professionals
24:15 Ikea Life Metaphor
24:41 What Kids Need
25:33 Working In Support
26:49 Home Leave Emotions
28:41 Lessons And Independence
30:03 Resilience In Community
32:18 Future Plans And Goals
33:10 Hillsborough Story
37:10 Child Friendly Arrests
42:46 Gratitude And Wrap Up

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey guys, just a quick disclaimer. As always, we do not claim to be therapists or counsellors. We are just sharing our stories of experiences that we have had from someone with lived experience and someone who is a researcher and a practitioner. When you are listening to these stories, please take care of yourselves as they can be a little bit heavy. There's some funny stories in there as well. Obviously, we are open to positivity in the comment section, please. Like I said, these are all truly based off people's lived experiences. So thank you so much, and I hope you enjoyed the episodes. Love you, bye. Hey guys, welcome back to episode 15 of Voices Unlocked. Today we have a very special guest, one of my gorgeous friends. It is. Are you gonna show your name on it? Oh hi, I'm Abby. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Abby, Abby's house you can do if you're gonna be here. It's me, but you're the host. I thought you were gonna introduce me.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

But listen, and nothing can happen on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Honestly, we want to do the best thing ever. Wait for one.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

I shouldn't be able to say no, I have to because they got all tattooing. We've got the bright pink ones. Stupid, I love them.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Shall we but anyway, shall we back to where we're at? Yeah, shall we have Abby on today? Abby has been coming to Town Matters for a while. Now obviously, I let her tell her story and what's been going on, but we have the gorgeous Lorna here as always. Always, yeah. Hi, gorgeous Lorna.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

But why are we not introducing every podcast with Hi Gorgeous Lorna? High Gorgeous, that's how it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

The name that changes not we shouldn't lost anymore. It's how gorgeous.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

I'm fine with that. Audience, yeah, but you're fine with it. But no, thank you so much, Abby, for coming on to this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

It was so last minute, by the way. I messaged her last night. I didn't even know where we were based.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

I'm like, when I were traveling to that's been a theme.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

The address, I was like, Do you want to come on the customer? She was like, Yeah, of course, can I was like, Yes, thank you. Didn't even give you the address, didn't I? No, I didn't know where it was gonna work.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

She's just like, Okay, yeah, fine. I didn't even know what it is.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Lona done it to me the other week. She texted me then like at half now in the night and was like, You're coming to London in the morning, you know. And I was like, Oh yeah, okay. Yeah, that was. And then she was like, Don't worry, the kids have all had time to prepare a speech. I haven't. She was like, You'll do it on the train we sat there, Gabin. I didn't have a speech planned.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

And yet you were best matches. You did actually.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Everyone says so, but I just get too nate. I like Black House.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

I'm like, I don't even know what it is. We went went to like a campaign event the other day, um, and Abby was there, and oh my god, you made me so emotional. Like, she is absolutely phenomenal the way this girl speaks, just about her experiences, your mum's experiences, just like your life experiences in general. She's so well spoken, and you're just so like I don't know, like you you're I don't know if Humblin's the right word, but like your your presence and the way you speak, you just you're so comforting in the way you talk, and you're just you're so easy to relate to. I feel like me and you have got a lot of similarities as well. Um, but yeah, so tell us a little bit about you, Ab. Tell us a little bit about how you found out about Time Matters, say what you want, say what you don't want, just give us a little bit about you, a little bit of an overview.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Fab. So I joined Time Matters when my mum went to prison. I was I'd just turned 18. And at first I was like, no, I don't need support. I'm not one of them kids whose mums go to jail, like I'm the exception because it was very like all about me at the time in my head, and I think that was like my kind of trauma response, just to focus on me to get through it, to survive it. Um, and then it hit me that my mum's gonna be in jail for for a couple of years, and I can't I can't do it on my own. Um, I've got a younger sister, Alex, and I knew she needed not only a big sister, but she needed a mum in her life. Um, and I also live with my nana, and she's not well, she's getting old, she needs someone to rely on as well, and I I knew I had to be that person, but I couldn't be that person if I didn't have time matters like on my side.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Yeah, and that is a lot. 18 years old, 17, 18, looking after a younger sibling, looking after a grandparent, worrying about your mum inside. It's you know, you you turn 18 and people say say you're an adult, but my goodness, it's not an adult young still.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

You're still a baby at that age. Like I well, you yours also just turned 18. Yeah. And I look at her like a baby still, and when I think about when I think about like our experiences growing up, it's a lot like we get to our age now, the ages that we are now, and we look back and we're like, oh my god, we were so young then.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Yeah. Like, how did we like it's shocking that we'd expect it to just live like that? Like it's not normal whatsoever, and it shouldn't be like, okay, you just carry on.

SPEAKER_03 5:15

Yeah, just manage. You're an adult, you can just manage.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

No, I don't know anything about what I'm doing, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

How old are you now? I'm 22.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

22.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

So this is still pretty fresh.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Fresh.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Yeah, you're 22, and you know, you're a young person officially till you're 25.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

And sorry, baby.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Wait, I'm still a young person up until me 26, 30. I'm 25 for the yeah, okay. Slow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

We're gonna keep it like that. Keep it slow.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

But yeah, no, 22, you're still so young, you've been through so much. Yeah, and do you know what I love about you is the fact that you definitely didn't want to join Time Matters at first. You were like, support's not for me, and yet you have embraced every single opportunity. Oh my god. Spoke in national conferences, been a consultant for a movie, isn't that a good funny?

SPEAKER_02 6:13

We made a film, like, isn't that insane? Like, I don't even think that's hit me yet. No, like we took such a negative, sad part of our life. Yeah, and we made a film. Do you know what? Like, that's not normal.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Do you remember that? Do you know what I loved there? About all the consultants who was on it, like we'd sit there in that when we first started writing, like helping write the script and things. We sat there in a room in the uni when it was first coming out about the idea, and we started writing it. And the support from all the consultants together, like I'd say something, I'd start crying, Abby had hugged me. Later I'd say something, I'd start crying, later I'd be there to support, and we'd all support each other through it.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

And it's weird because we're all hating, but yeah, we all want to support each other. It's because we're all hating in a different way, though it's so similar. Yeah, when you know, like if I seen you crying, like my hate stops because I need to comfort you, and then it's like the opposite way around as well. It was such a nice like space, yeah. But I I felt like I kind of took a bit of time away from the film when it was happening because I was having such like mental health problems, and I was like, I can't relive over and over and over. Of course. And then like this this girl that we created, like I formed a bond with her, you know what I mean? Like she had such of like so many of our life experiences. I was like, I can't keep going back to this imaginary girl who I've connected with so much. Yeah, so I was like, I I needed to take some time away for my own mental health. So I was like, I was gutted that like I took so much time away from it. But it's so healthy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

I think it is healthy because, like you've said, the character we created. Okay, it's a fictional character. She was real, she's real, she's real to me. Because she's real to she's real to you, she's real to me, she's real to Layla, she's real to Caitlin. Because the pieces of us, yeah, that character is pieces of our story, pieces of our soul, pieces of what we've created, yeah, and bonded together as one to create that in that space, and in such a vulnerable space that we tried to make enabling, which was an enabling environment, and we've all supported each other, like it's completely not and it's very, very raw for you still.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Yeah, like extremely you and Leila and and her siblings and that you know each other. Like I didn't have a clue, like you were walking. Or like how you would respond. Like, yeah, I was I feel like I was proper thrown in the deep end.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

No, you are no, you really were. And I remember you turning up to the uni and you said to me, I'm shaking. Yeah, I wasn't gonna come, but I've come and I'm shaking. And I remember saying, you know, just see how you feel and see how it goes, and and you did, and you walked into that room and everybody started sharing. And I I think it's credit to you and you know, your own personality that also you were able to go, this is what I'm able to do, and this is what I'm able to not do, and and I know when I need to take a break. I think that shows huge maturity to say, I can give at this point, and I'm gonna take a step back at this point. And I and I would hope that all the young people that come through Time Matters know that you you don't have to get involved in everything, you can get involved in what you want at the pace that you want to. Um, but it took a lot of bravery, you know. Yeah, you're right, like Liv, Caitlin, and and Layla already knew each other and you walked into that space. I don't know, yeah, it must it was a brave thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Yeah, because I think that was like one of the first things that I'd done with yours. Which was massive, yeah, which was a huge thing. Um but no, like I knew like I needed again to be a big sister, to be Milan's like person that she realized on and stuff. So I knew I was like, I can't let myself fall too deep, because I then won't be able at home to to be the person that I need to be. And it was odd just being that person, like anyway. Never mind if I was like being like triggered and like re-traumatised by it and stuff. Not that it was traumatising, but that the like the scenario is you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

It's a he it's a heavy thing, and just for anybody listening for the first time, what what what it was is we made a short film called That Girl, which is basically just telling a little bit of somebody's life, um, of a young girl's life whose mother goes to prison, and and the way that it was constructed was listening to your story, Liv's story, Caitlin's story, and Layla's story, and pulling that together into a a fictional storyline that that was made up of pieces of you guys. Um the whole point of the film is to to raise awareness, really. Well, I mean, what was that like when we we went to facts and we watched it back? How did you feel?

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Well, my mum came, didn't she? She came up with it. I felt weird. I was like, oh my god, like this it's not about my mum, but like it was about my experience with my mum as well as your experience and stuff. And like my mum was watching it and she was like, Abby, like that wasn't your life, and I was like, but it was other people's life, like certain aspects of it like she couldn't relate to, and she was like, I can't believe like kids have lived like that and and stuff like that. So yeah, it was it was hard, and then especially like having my mum on my side. I was like, I hope she's proud of me, and I hope she never takes offence to to anything, but I know she won't. It's just a worry that I'm always gonna say.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Yeah, you're protective, you love your mum, you you want your mum to to be okay and you want to protect her, and you all you're exactly the same, aren't you, Liv? You're always really mindful about you know wanting to be there for for her.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

I think that's where me and you are very similar because me and you were sending voice notes, and I I speak to Abby anyway, like I'll text you every now and then when I like checking in how you're and we always need to plan something, but something always comes up and something never actually ends up planning, but we are planting. We're getting we're getting there, we're getting it. It's just taking it to time, we're getting closer, it's like inch by inch we're gonna get there. Baby steps, baby steps. Um, but me and you were very similar in and I related a lot to your sister as well because I met your sister first. Yeah, you did. Um I met your sister first, and we used to like have a laugh and a ball and whatever when she used to come. And erm, I just think that the way our instinct works is the way you are with your siblings, is like the way I am with like other kids. Do you know what I mean? Like you automatically well, you said it before, you automatically put your hair to side for the people you care about the most. Yeah. And you'll deal with your own stuff later. Yeah. And that's where me and you relate a lot, but then it comes through our mums, and like a separate kind of feeling. Separate kind of like form of protect or a form of wanting to help. Like you have it, it's not even a question of how much you just automatically know how you're gonna help them, and that you automatically need to protect them. And when you feel like that power's being taken away from you, your brain can't comprehend it.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

It's such a vulnerable feeling, not being able, like, I mean, I couldn't imagine how it feels like not being able to protect your kid. Like, I wouldn't know, but it's a I'd assume it's like the same kind of feeling.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Because we automatically all roles automatically reverse, and I say that. Like, my man and my mum's relationship, I don't know if you can relate to this, but it's not very mother, mother and daughter. Like, it's very much like the love I've got for her is is is stronger than that. It's more like I say we're like sisters, but it's not like a sister bond either. It's just like this it's this connection that we're we're like torn from the same cloth, where we are the same soul, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Like my mum's my best mate, I've said that forever. Like, and I think my mum, because she had me when she was 17. We we like she was always called my older sister when she was picking up me up from school and stuff. Um, but no, we've always like just I mean, we probably tell each other stuff that you shouldn't tell your mum and daughter, but we have such an open, honest relationship that it just works.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

And you know what's gorgeous about that? The the stigma around it and stuff like that of having a parent in prison, most people who've got their opinions wouldn't think that's the relationship that you've got with the kids.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Well they're a bad person, so your kids aren't gonna like a bad person. It's like people make mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Well, like all ones what they like with the kids from the kids. So can't believe that they've got kids and this, that, this, and the other.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

And because preparing for this, I was talking to my mum last night and she was like, There are two types of people in jail. They're people who are good people and they've done things that have got them life sentences, but they've done it out of love or protection or just stupidity. And then there's people that have only known jail life or they're you know addicted to drugs and just in the wrong crowd and have always like they don't know anything other than that. So she was like, You don't you don't look at anyone, think you're a bad person, you look at them and think, wow, we've all made a mistake.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. So what so sorry?

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Sorry, I was just gonna say, but it's hard to like as an outsider, like me at first, like I would just assume, oh well, they're a bad person, the kids aren't gonna like them. How can you like your mum when she's in jail? And then that feeling that you get when you you you know, when you know your mum's doing time in prison, you're like it it's a it's a shock, and it I don't think it goes away until they come home. It it doesn't leave you.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Yeah. And and how long has she been home now?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Um two years. Yeah, just on two years, I think. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

And like so, you know, if anybody was going through this, and I think I I asked I asked you this, you know, when we were making the epilogue for that girl, but you know, if anybody was going through this situation and that were they were at the beginning of this journey, you know, is there any any advice you'd give someone who you know that their their mum or their dad was about to get a custodial sentence, it looks like they are gonna serve time and they think I'm never ever gonna survive this. Like what what would you say?

SPEAKER_02 16:32

I'd say it's hard, it's really hard, but just get by that day. Think about tomorrow when tomorrow comes. It's you don't have to figure it all out in one setting. It's take it day by day, and you're gonna feel so many emotions, especially like anger and embarrassment, and they're normal. It's gonna hate you feeling them emotions, you're gonna feel guilty just for feeling certain emotions, but it's all normal. Um you're not the only person out there going through it. You'll never be the only person out there going through it. You know, your situation might be different, but there's other kids that will relate and try and get support, even if you're like me and you put it off a face, eventually you'll come round and it's probably the best thing that you'll do for yourself.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Amazing. No, I I absolutely love that. And then let's just talk about the fact that I did throw you in at the deep end just before uh Christmas. So um we were invited to speak for um it was a a big event that was for the prison inspectorates. So this is all the people that inspect all the prisons across the UK, and it was the the lead person that is like the chief of all the the prison inspectorates, and they have their like annual event. Um, and we were invited to bring some some young people down to basically tell prison inspectors what's what's goes well in terms of prison visits, but what needs to be improved. Um so we just went down, didn't we, to to London, and then just Abby just gets up and does like a off the cuff interview. Everybody learnt so much from you. Um you know, so you so you did like light live, you you did visit visit your mum.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Um yeah, I think obviously the the prison and like they've got a job to do. They need to keep the prisoners safe, they need to keep the visitors safe. But keeping people safe isn't the same as letting them enjoy themselves. So my mum and my auntie served together as um co-defendants. So at first they wouldn't let me nana sit with both of her kids. She had to choose what kid to sit with on certain.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

So they had your your mum on one table.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

One table and my auntie on the other. So me it was very hard for obviously for me. I'm like, I love my auntie, but I need to see my mum. Same with their kids, you know. They wanted to see their auntie, but they need to see the mum. But for me, nan, how can you make a woman choose what kids to see?

SPEAKER_03 19:17

They were her two children.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yeah, that her only children. So, how can you force a a woman to do that? Eventually, they did let us like push the tables together and we sat as a family. But again, like sitting as a family was weird because when I'm at my house, I just go into my mum's bedroom and it's just me and my mum. You know, I'm trying to have these conversations about, you know, I've just turned 18, I've I'm trying new things in life, and some of them aren't going well. Yeah, you're working life aren't. I'm trying to tell her that and have a private conversation with people in uniforms walking past. And I'm sat with my little sister. I don't want some like some that there's some things that I don't want them to know about, yeah. Like my auntie, as much as I love my auntie, she's not my mum. Yeah, yeah, it's a different relationship. Yeah. So that was really difficult, and then having to try and explain that to people in London who are in suit to look or the part, and I'm there, like I'm little scouser, like just listen to me. I was like, no way, especially because I didn't have any time to prepare on the train, Lorna.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Sorry, I knew you'd be amazing. I've given it like 0.3 hours to get ourselves sort of from the heart.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

And we just we just spoke that whole journey there, and like we just Lorna tends to do that thing of like you need to prep for this, and then we'll be on a shape journey.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

But oh my god, listen to this. And you know what band's playing again?

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Like, because that's what our relationship is.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Yeah, and but but because I deep down, like you're there's there's nothing that you can say that's wrong because your truth and your experience is is the most valid it valid thing anyway. So so you can't be wrong. So I knew that you just say from the heart.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, and even if I do say something wrong, like I try and say things with as much like empathy, so even though it might upset or offend people, it is a truth, and it as long as I put it across nicely, you can be upset with it, but you can't be upset with the fact I've said it. Like if you're upset with the fact that I've said, you can't be upset with me, with the way I've said it. Yeah. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 21:27

No, you're it makes perfect sense. I mean, you're you know, while your mum's raised you beautifully, you're super polite and super sensitive and super considerate, but you're just telling your truth that this was hard and it could have been better.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

You're a lot like me in a sense of I think we just do it naturally. Like we we can just we're we're I think we're naturally spoken people. Like we can we can sit there in a room of people or we can sit and they can ask us questions and you know I think we're very open on the very open and honest. But I think it's because of the way we've dealt with things anyway. Like we're we can find it very easy to find comfortability in what we've been through. We can find we can we in a vulnerable we can find comfortability in our vulnerability. You know what I mean? That's so well. That's a great phrase.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Uncomfortability involved in the city.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Can we like trademark that I'm trademarking that? That's going into my new book. I'm right I'm writing a book, by the way. It's called Not Your Usual Bedtime Story. Can I write a pound for it? Absolutely. We'll speak after this. But no, genuinely, like we do. I think when we find comfort in uncomfortable situations in vulnerable situations.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

If someone says something and I agree with it, you're gonna know I agree with it.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Yeah, and you're gonna find out I agree with it.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

And you're gonna find out if I disagree with it.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

We stand on business two times in such a beautiful polite way. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

I'm not gonna purposely like hurt someone's feelings, but I'm gonna say what I need to say. You'd be one of them, let me just stop you there.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Actually, one second, let me just let me just put a little salt onto that one. I'm like, you just shut up a sec. Yeah, please can you just be quiet for one moment, please? I'm so respectful. Shut up. I'm a respectful person ever.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Your gob short now. Listen to me. Sometimes that needs to be said.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Sometimes you'll sometimes do need to stand on business when they think that they know everything and need to. And I think that's what stresses me out the most as well. And I think you agree with me. Like, there's so many professionals out there like Lorna, who is you just get it.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

She gets it. Like, you don't have to explain to Lorna, you don't have to tell Lorna. Like, she just she's able to read us. So what she's known us for years, and she's been doing this for years, to the point where when I even when I first met her, she just got it. And when I was a kid, anyway, I was one of them who didn't like to speak to people anyway, and was just a bit like leave me alone. But I think when professionals think that they know everything, but they haven't even experienced it. Do you know what I mean? Or they think they know what's best for you, but you'd haven't experienced it. You'd haven't even spoken to children who who have been through it, or you just assume you know. Never just assume.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Like you can read a book that tells you if a person says this, you say that. It doesn't work. It doesn't. No. It's not it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

How many people read instructions to bake a cake and the cake comes out properly?

SPEAKER_03 24:13

You read instructions anyway.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Exactly. If you get a table from oh gosh, yeah, you're getting something from IKEA. You don't even look at the instructions, just try and build it yourself. Yeah, and it comes up all wonky. Exactly, but doesn't end up with wobbles, it's not very easy. Oh my god, that's a really great metaphor.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Talking to kids with pins and vision, it's a bit like building IKEA.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah, I mean it's like a day house and IKEA. You know, sometimes you you you buy what you think you want and it comes out a little bit wonky, a little bit wobbly, but at the end of the day, it's still stable.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

No, but genuinely, like, what do you guys want from professionals just to be listened to?

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Um, I mean, the number one thing is like if you've been through it, I'd love if you could then become someone who supports someone because you know it. Yeah, but obviously that's not gonna work. But just being like you, Lorna, like you're so naturally like aware of people's feelings without them even having to say anything. Um you don't push, you don't ask questions that don't need to be asked. Like you never give someone a hard time for not opening up. Yeah, you're very I don't even know how to describe it.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

I'm enjoying this part of the episode, people. Just a great woman, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 25:26

You're not just ten ten type of woman. If you know what I mean. You're just like you're phenomenal. You just get it.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Would you consider um like later on in life working in this kind of field, or do you feel like it'd be too much? No, it's because it's a part of one, isn't it? It's like like you were saying before, like sometimes things can feel like you know, you want to put that in the past, or do you think it'd be regurgitating?

SPEAKER_02 25:51

But I find stuff like this like therapy for me.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

So I think I'd find it where have you been like this.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

No, but real, they're like, yeah, I think I wanna like I'm in therapy now and I'm trying to heal from it. But like I do see the kids as like a little piece of therapy as well. Yeah. Because like they're so innocent as well, and you get it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

But then for them to to meet people, you know, like you who's saying, you know, like it is hard, really, but it's really hard, but I have come through it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

That's like it's a little glimmer of hope that you're not gonna see in any other because someone can say to you, Oh yeah, but you'll be alright.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

You don't know that at all.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

You really don't. Like logically, okay, but like when I'm in that situation, you don't know nothing.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

I'm not okay right now. I don't care how I'm gonna be in the next two weeks. I've got to deal with myself today and spend.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah, my mum's fair like it was her first and only like custodial sentence. She got two and a half years.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Yeah, harsh.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Like, that's a harsh sentence as well.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Harsh for you guys as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Was my mum's three?

SPEAKER_03 27:02

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

My mum was that her first custodial sentence?

SPEAKER_03 27:06

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Yeah. It's hard. Or she was supposed to get six and put in for appeal and got off. Yeah, my mum was like seven and then she ended up with two and a half or something. Yeah, my mum's done three. She came home one Christmas day and it would belt her. Was it good? Loved it. Oh, it was boss. She came home for Christmas, but it was when she had to go back. It was a bit. Yeah, it's hard though. Yeah, it was my birthday and her birthday at the same time, so it was kind of cute.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Yeah, you had that. You you had home leave, didn't you? For a little while. So she would come home and go back in. What was that like? Tell tell us just a little tiny bit about home leave.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Um, I mean, the first thing I think of is a going back. That was horrendous, especially the first time. It's so emotional, especially because like she's coming back to her home. She's feeling all sorts of emotions where me and Alex were just like, get on this, get on it, and she's just like giving me a minute to I don't realise what's going on. Um, and I think she came home around Christmas for her first one. So the first thing she's done was when I got the the decorations out the loft. And I was like, You're meant to be spending quality time with us, yeah. You're up in the loft, and up in the loft. Your mum was like, get the pencils. I'm not speaking to you until the pencils out.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah, but don't blame her. I would have been the same. I love Christmas. But um, I I I that thing that you're explaining of a going back, it is odd, and I think in the moment you're so excited when they come out that you forget that they've got to go back at one point, don't you? But you you still cherish that time that you're done well, do wrong.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

You'll never forget it. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

What what have you learned from this experience? And that can be taken positively, negatively, you know, like what has what has having a mum going to prison taught you? Like, what have you learned? Yeah. That can be to either of you actually.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

I don't really I don't know because I feel like I'm still learning now, even though she's home. I'm learning now, like through therapy and stuff, but through you guys, I'm learning how to live with that as part of my life.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

What have you learned about yourself as a person going through this?

SPEAKER_02 29:18

That Lorna can put me under pressure.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

I don't know if I'm coming across well or badly in this episode. It's a bit about shot and being. This is why we were complimenting you before. She's complimenting you, so you don't put her under pressure.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

No, um probably like I am a lot more independent than I thought I was, um, and I can rise to occasions like looking after siblings, looking after me, nan. Speaking in conferences, speaking in conferences, getting put under pressure, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Yeah, yeah, that you can you can do things that you thought you couldn't do.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yeah, but like it also did teach me like I can take a step back when things get a bit too more. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

I think that's so important.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Do you know what's really good as well? You know what I I have learnt. What have you? Do you know what I've learnt? That resilience is in an individual. Resilience doesn't come from an individual, it doesn't come from yourself. It can, you can be resilient in yourself, and that's what resilience means. But you find resilience in other people. Yeah, it makes you resilient by finding resilience in other people. Like, I when we go to these conferences, when we go to these meetings, uh and you know, it's the girls in the room or the girls and the lads, or the lads, or like whatever, with our experiences, when we've got shared experiences and we're all in the room together. Do you know how powerful I feel? Yeah, you know how I feel like the strength I feel from other people. Yeah. Like when when we when we went to um how do I offer the film festival and we did the whole thing, I thought I was gonna be nervous um and I was gonna be scared, and I went to get up and that and like doing this, and I thought about you every single day. And it was like I got the strength of like when we were sitting there talking, all I kept saying was like thank you, thank you, Abby, thank you, Leila, thank you, Caitlin, thank you, the consultants. Like, I I just kept doing it because even when we were talking about the movie and that I was always like, you know, there's consultants on the movie, and and and we were talking about it, and I in that moment, and even the other day when we went to the thing the other day, the the strength in numbers of how resilient I feel, but I get it from you, I get it from the girls, or I get it from like the kids, and uh the feeling that you get in that situation, I just don't think you can get it anywhere else. I don't I feel the most content and the most powerful in myself and the most independent, strong willed when I'm in time matters, or I'm doing something for time matters. Do you get me?

SPEAKER_02 31:54

It's like we do all use our own like trauma as a strength for each other to build on. Thank god my mum went to jail. Nice one, Melanie.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Don't go back. You need to get the teddy. No, I got it out before she's over there. She's in retirement at the minute. She's taking a minute to be able to do that. She's having a minute. She's having a minute, but she's on break. No, she is, she's starving, that's what she is.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Um, but yeah, no, but I mean it's been a hell hell of a journey. I mean, you're only 22 now. You you started this journey 17, turning 18. So you know, like that's that's four years is pretty, pretty fresh for you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

What's next?

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Yeah, what's your what's your plans for?

SPEAKER_02 32:35

I mean, hopefully more stuff with you guys. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

You've forgiven me then for taking you to look. You loved it. We were so good. We did have a fun time. We didn't.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Is that why you got me to message it and not you last night? No, because I just thought you'd have a number. Yeah, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

I can't do it. Stop after you are like, okay, Lynn fuck with it.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Yeah, exactly. Like, hopefully, I mean, did you enjoy the event the other day? It wasn't my at my rate.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

I loved it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

You were so good that you got off and spoke.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

I don't know if you're willing to like share a tiny bit of what you spoke about, or so we we were learning about like campaigns and what makes campaigns work, what makes them not work, stuff like that. And one of the campaigns that we spoke about was the Hillsborough disaster and the campaign to find the truth. Um and my granddad was killed at Hillsborough, um, when my mum was two. So I have grew up with my mum and my nan and my auntie and stuff. They lived in a courtroom, they were always in in court um fighting for justice, and it took over 30 years and they finally got it, and when it came about um at the campaign, I was like, I do feel like a sort of pressure that I have to speak about it because it is so so personal to me, so personal to my family. Um so yeah, I do I did feel like it was a good pressure though. It was like I can speak from experience, I can talk about this, I've got inside knowledge, so I'm gonna share that and it really worked with like everyone as well. Like everyone was like asking me like questions and again like all respectful and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

It makes it good to network as well.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah, you network.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

I was watching network with a lot of people, and I was just loving it. I was loving seeing you in your little in a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Yeah, because you all got to sit with at least someone you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Oh now we separated you from everyone, you got separated from everyone, didn't you? I was like crazy. I think I think some certain people refuse to move off the tables.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Are you looking at me?

SPEAKER_03 34:42

No, I'm just saying. Oh, okay. I feel like I'm why she's just come for me. The gorgeous corner.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Anyone would be that I refuse to move off the table. No, you never weren't you. I was talking about I refuse to move off the table. I don't know why you've just come for me like that. But that has just broken heart and you're looking at me. But the lock is no more. You look at it. I would have moved off my dude. I wish I moved off the table like that. Oh my god. Rude. That's so funny. We actually moved to my cleaner of you.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Anyway, your response was a little bit harsh. She's broke the mic.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

I haven't done two podcast studios will be sending me a bill. And I said, I've got Australia to prepare for. Anyway, Charlie, Australia. Next year, we'll talk about it later. Do you want to come with me?

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

We can do it together.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

She will. Um what's one of my plans for the future? Australia. Australia. And so it's Australia together. No, it'd be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

But what genuinely, what are what what what are your plans for the future? Um like where do you want to be in the next year?

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah. I'm giving you the year. What do you want to achieve?

SPEAKER_02 36:09

Um, I wanna be finished with therapy, honestly. Like, I'm not even talking about like a like a job or a m like, I'm talking mindset, you know, I'm a jet. I wanna be done with therapy, and you know, I'm trying all different meds to see what way and what'll be best for while I'm doing like different therapies and stuff. And yeah, I wanna be at a point where I'm I'm like strong enough mentally to try different things to then see where I'll end up in the next year after that.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Yeah, but but your mental health's the foundation for everything. So, what you're doing now is you're investing in your mental health.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Like, I've always struggled with mental health problems, and my mum going to jail was definitely one of them. I mean, the the morning my mum got arrested, I was getting ready to go to therapy. Oh so I had to quit that therapy when my mum got arrested.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

Oh, and and just you know, like there's so many things, and I'd love to invite you back as well as a future podcast guest if you'll have us. Yes. Um, but one of the amazing, amazing projects, and we we'll probably talk about it more the next time you come, is that you actually were a consultant on another project, which was to train police officers about how to make arrests as child friendly as possible, which sounds like a really like hard thing to do, but you know, you you were part of a a five-person young persons team uh that created a video that's now rolled out to Merseyside Police and to and to to police, you know, in um right across right across Europe actually. And the whole point of the video was for you know young people to say, this is what it was like when I witnessed my parent getting arrested, and this is what I think should have been done better from for young people. And I really remember you saying on the video that when they came in to to make the arrest, they were like, just go to therapy.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

But obviously, in that moment in time, you I couldn't think of any other form. Yeah. Are you joking? Just go to therapy. Like parents being arrested, I understand it's it's crucial because people commit crimes, I understand that. We don't need to have it be so traumatic for the family. There's there's safer and healthier ways to do that. Um yeah, the police I was like, why are you doing this? Like wait, let me please go to therapy, do you know what I mean? And they were like, just go. First of all, I couldn't go because I was 17 and it was uh adult one, so I needed an adult with me and my mum is me like a safety person. So I couldn't go, and then the fact that they were just like, well, just go anyway. I was just like, you really don't understand kids and the way their mental health is or the way they rely on people and stuff, it was it was proper. Like it it made me lose a lot of trust in the way you get treated by the police. Yeah, it was bad. And I've already got like growing up with the way me like the way my granddad was killed. Yeah. I've already got like lack of trust in the police, and then other traumatas and things I've been through. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

It's it's heartbreaking to to know like that that that's that's for one that you'd even witness that at and witness and arrest in itself.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

But I feel like most of the kids the time matters have all witnessed many of them have.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

I was lucky that I I did not witness, but there's been times where my mum's in my my not in and out, but my mum's up and down all the time anyway. So there's been a few times I've seen people the police come out to speak to me mum or arrest my mum and things like that, and she's never been sentenced or any, and so there's a few times I've run in to the police with my mum, but I was lucky that I went there on a racial customer arrest because I mean we spoke about that in the other one, but I think uh the way that you uh the pre since I've known you, the progress that you've made that I don't think that you even realise that you've made is phenomenal. Like seeing your growth just uh individually and just seeing that you thrive in in other ways.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Absolutely just it it melts me off because I I know that you've struggled with your mental health and and we've spoke a lot about mental health anyway, and to just even having you sitting here today and being so open and honest about it, like I've got so much, it's so brave.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Like I get it, like I've struggled a lot with mental health problems. So if I can be the open and honest person and one person watching and listening goes, Wow, I I get that, it makes it so much easier for that one person, then that's fine with me.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

To be somebody that was so uh nervous to walk into a room with four or five of us, to somebody that stood up uh in a conference to tell your story, to stand up with the other every single person listened to you. When you stood up the other week in that in that conference and and talked about Hillsborough and told your story, every single person was like listening to you, you know, so you know, so strongly, and so many people came up to me afterwards and go, Wow, the way the way that girl speaks, and then to to to do the training video for the police, to do the film that girl, to sit here on this podcast, you know, that's a journey and a half.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

We we haven't even uh touched the sides of you, like actually haven't even touched the sides of the amazing things that you do and uh and things that you've been through and how you've come from them. And we do we say this with every single guest that said this on the last episode, we need to get them back on, but we do it a part two. We will we'll have like reoccurring guests, like we genuinely will, but you are one of them. Like it needs to be like deep delved into more because you're such an amazing person, Ab, and like I'm so glad that we've built a friendship from from this because we have we are mates, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Like we text and that and but it's mad that like I think if we just met randomly we'd be mates. It's mad that we're like mates because of such a sad thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Like if I met you on a night out girl, we'd be best mates. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'd be adding you on Instagram and I'd be like, when's the next one? We'd be having like that girl bathroom talk, the girl bathroom talk, or we'll be like, we'll go on the girl bathroom talk and then we'd get a photo of the picture. Uh absolutely we need to. We're doing it now, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

After this, that's where we're gonna if you catch me. We'll be having time.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Yeah, Liv was gonna get her hair done, but she's having teddies.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Anyway, um, but yeah, so what we like to do when we wrap this up is we like to say what we're grateful for today. So, would you like to start with what you're grateful for today?

SPEAKER_02 42:53

I mean, first and foremost, I'm grateful for you two. Always. Thank you. You're just such amazing people, especially to be like so considerate of not only just me, but like all the guests on the podcast. I'm so proud of you as both, you know. So it made me cry.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Oh, love you so much, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

And I'm grateful for the opportunities that you have both given me.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Oh, you'll be back, girl. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

No, you'll be back. I see. I love her, I love her.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

We're talking like she's not even in the room. I feel like a puppy. She's so cute. She's just amazing. She's there still. She's still here.

unknown 43:39

Hi, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

And again, the cameras are still rolling now.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

But what are you grateful for, Lorna?

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Um, well, I am really, really, really grateful for the fact that like you literally need less than 24 hours of to do about five different things that I've asked you to do over the years, and you've just gone, yeah, no, I'm there. And you just the fact that you just speak authentically and from the heart. And yeah, I I I love it. And I'll just I I'm grateful for the moments that we shared, even like you know, times when we've just been you and me, and we've sat on the train and we've had a laugh and shared like our snacks, and those moments, they're magical moments. They are, and I'll never forget them. They are that really deep.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

What are you grateful for, Leah? Um, what am I grateful for? Me, myself, and then the obsession you have with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

The obsession I have for me, what we were talking about before.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

That's not even my grateful that you came to say.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

Same.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Genuinely, I'm so grateful to have you here. I'm grateful for the guests that we've had on today. Um, I'm grateful just for life. I just think it's going so well at the minute, and um yeah, I'm grateful for my mum when I say that. I'm grateful for you, mum, because you're doing really well. So keep it up, and I love ya.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

And Claire, we're grateful for Claire.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

And we're grateful for Claire, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Claire and Mel.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Claire and Mel, we're grateful for both of you. I'm grateful for the mums of this world.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Thank you so much, mum's lady.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Love mums. Do you know what I mean? So well, I absolutely love it. Do you know what? I've never, and I know it's because it's slightly unrelated, but I'm gonna say I'm grateful for my mum. Yeah. I've yeah, my my mum's a lot older now, and um, you know, her memory is not what it used to be, but I I was raised as you two were with a lot of love, and I think her love and her empathy has made me who I am, and has made me my mum was a counsellor and a nurse her whole life, and has made me be able to be who I am and be able to give to other people because I've learned that from her.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

So, shout out to mums, shout out to all the mums out there for being the best mums ever and doing the best job when you feel like you can't, you're still doing it.

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Um and if you didn't grow up feeling that love from your mum, you will find it in other places. You can find it in places like me and live. Exactly. We'll always give as much mum love as anyone as anyone needs.

SPEAKER_01 46:17

But um, like always, guys, uh, thank you so much for coming on. We've loved having you on. Um, we hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you have any questions, any stories you want to share, any advice you would like, the email will be at the bottom. At the bottom, it's at the bottom, it's at the bottom. Um, so thank you so much for joining and hopefully see you next week. Love you, bye.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

Bye.