Talking Crime, Justice, and Community with Jackson's First Female Prosecutor, Kelsey Guernsey.

She walks into the room and people notice. Not because she's trying to make a statement -- but because she already made history. 

This episode, Alex and Amanda sit down with Kelsey Guernsey, the first female prosecuting attorney in Jackson County. Let that land for a second. The. First. In a role that has existed for generations, Kelsey is the women who broke the ceiling -- and she's here to talk about what that actually looks like from the inside. 

This isn't a fluff piece. Kelsey gets into what it means to carry that "first" title every single day, what it costs, and what it feels like to walk into rooms that weren't built with you in mind -- and command them anyway. She talks about the cases that stay with you, the pressure of being watched, and why she keeps showing up even when the weight of it is real. 

This episode is for every woman who has ever been the only one in the room. The first one. The one people are watching to see if she'll fail. Kelsey's story is proof that not only do you belong there -- you might just be the one who changes everything. 

What we cover: 

• What it means to be the first female prosecuting attorney in Jackson County. 
• How Kelsey navigated a male-dominated field without losing herself. 
• The reality of prosecuting cases in a community you live in. 
• What she wishes more people understood about the criminal justice system. 
• The "first" pressure -- what it feels like and how she carries it. 
• Her message to women who are walking into spaces that weren't made for them. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Michigan Tribe Podcast, where we sit down with female leaders and business owners across Jackson County, Michigan. Today we'll be meeting with the first female prosecutor for Jackson, Michigan, and that is Kelsey Guernsey. So let's dive in. Three, two, one. Talk to me. Welcome to the My Tribe Podcast. I'm Amanda, and my co-host slash actual host, I might be the co-host, I'm not sure. I don't know. You're the Yeah, it feels like I don't know. I don't know. Is Alex Alex? She's my real life sister. And today we have prosecuting attorney Kelsey Guernsey. Super stoked that you are here. So just to give the smallest intro, you are, I believe, the first female prosecuting attorney, and that's a position where you were elected. I was um into the position. So I'm really excited to talk to you about that. But you're also a mom, a foster mom, and now a leader of many staff people in Jackson. So we are gonna talk about a few different things.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Oh, that's exciting.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

But is there anything from your bio bio I've missed? Because that was like the fastest one of all time.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Yeah, right. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. The only other one that sometimes people talk about is um I'm I'm tactically the second youngest by four months. So Judge McBain, when he was elected, okay, he was four months younger than I was. Um but so also, but yes, first female um and pretty young for the position.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

So which is like dive into that part because I have so many questions. And just so you know, I secretly just want you to tell me everything you're not allowed to tell me about all of the cases. I pitched this idea to Alex and was like, so you know how I feel like I'm gonna be able to true crime stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

No, I can't get it.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

So I will come up with secondary questions. It's fun. So I am really curious. So not only are you a female in the position, but you're young for the position itself, even though you are a Republican, so you were able to run in the kind of dominant Republican space that we live in. But I just feel like those two first things have a big impact. Like, how did you over like what was your strategy, I guess, to get elected as a young female in a Republican, male-dominated, predominantly Christian community? Like, yeah. Did you were there secret deals made? Explain yourself to me. You know what I'm saying? Like how did you do that?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

I think the biggest thing for me was that my my body of work spoke for itself, right? So I've been an assistant prosecuting attorney here for 11 years. Um, and you know, trials upon trials that I've worked on, cases that I've worked on, victims that I've supported. Um, I think that was a really big piece of it. I had a body of work that everybody could look at and go, oh, she she knows how to do this job. She knows how to how to be a prosecutor. Um, but I also had great support in my system, right? You know, so when the outgoing first-time, three-term prosecutor in a really long time, you know, endorses me and said I'm his pick. And, you know, I laugh when I was knocking on doors. And I mean, I I could be out in Brass Lake and I'd be like, oh, yep, nope, we talked to Jerry, we're already voting for you, right? I could be out in Hannibal Horton, we talked to Jerry, we're already voting for you, you know. So Jerry's support as the outgoing prosecutor, you know, and then you add people like Mike Sharkey and things like that. That helps a ton. Absolutely. And that, yes, you know, and and and Sheriff Shooty, right? You know, so you have the the the main law enforcement guy, right? Sheriff Shooty is kind of over all of Jackson County. He had endorsed me. And in fact, while I didn't get a lot of the police union endorsements, and we've worked through a lot of that. I think our office has a really good relationship with a lot of the the rank and file. Just about every police chief had endorsements.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Right, and Chris Simpson, who wasn't the chief at the time of the city.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

He was the under sheriff, yep, yep. You know, so just about every police chief, because they knew my body of work and they knew my leadership skills and they knew kind of what, you know, so Jackson County as a whole had a lot of people they did already know and did trust. So even if they didn't know me, there were a lot of people there that were in my corner and that were supportive of me and my mission and and my way to move our office, you know, continuing forward, building on what Jerry did, because Jerry did a lot of really great things, right? But between and building and making it our our own as we move forward.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

So well, and speaking of your body of work, the other thing that I just find so fascinating that you were able to do, which to, you know, I think the majority of people make sense, but again, an elected position is your body of work, so much of what you're passionate about is about vulnerable populations. It's about children, it's about women, it's things like that. So again, in the community that we're in, just like I just find that fascinating, that combination of things. And what were some of the things you faced that maybe most people don't know about because of those like factors, right? Like I'm a female, I'm young, I care about vulnerable populations, and I'm Republican, right? Like just these things that like are assumed about that. Sure. Like, just what did you face or go through and still maybe not just during your your your campaign.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

But I will say during the campaign, it made me laugh. At some point it came out, you know, well, she only tries child sexual assault cases. And I was like, okay, but those are the hardest ones to try. So, like, I mean, I guess sure, you can tell me that those only ones that tried. It's not. I've literally tried everything there is to try. But it was funny that that was almost as a knock against me, as you were saying, right? Like, she only works on these kid cases. Um, you try getting a six-year-old to say something in front of 14 strangers in a courtroom full of people, and you know, there there isn't a more challenging case that exists. However, um, you know, I I have done a lot of them. I've done gang cases, I've done murder cases, I've done, you know, lots of my body of work while my focus has been on vulnerable um population, children, domestic violence, and things like that. But I think the bigger thing is our community has come together. And in particular, we saw it and we did the summit to reduce violence, domestic violence, last or back in April when we did that. Um, the community really rallied together and recognized, you know what, domestic violence isn't, isn't only in a certain area in our community. Domestic violence doesn't affect only a certain type of our population. Um, you know, domestic violence, sometimes like substance use, it impacts everybody. It really does. It's across the board. Um and it's typically hidden. And it is, it is, you know, so who's to say it's anywhere in particular? Right, exactly. So, but you know, so families, you know, understand that and are often looking for an advocate in those areas, right? Nobody wants, nobody wants people that hurt kids to be out in our world, right? You know, everybody can come together and be like, oh yeah, no, people who hurt kids should be held responsible, right? Right. People who who hurt vulnerable adults should be held responsible. So it really became more of a rallying together point, I think, of um, you know, look, I can try a gang case, I can try a gun chase case, I can try a drug case. I've done a lot of them, um, but but they're vulnerable victims in our community. They they need our help the most. And I think our community has rallied around that and behind that, you know, under my leadership as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Yeah. And so speaking of leadership, I'm curious what it's like to take on a position. I can relate to this. And um uh, you know, I took on a position where there were legacy leaders in the organization, people who have been there far longer than me, who are older than me, things like that. And there are dynamics to that that are challenging to deal with. I'm just curious what some of them are. And I know like I'm not asking you to like give uh like big details, but I just mean how have you dealt with that in yourself and and coming into maybe um, you know, a a role that had expectations and you are you have a vision of your own. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

You know, you know, and I I think it's my office who should be commended for it more than anything. You know, in the span of six months, I went from a colleague to the boss. Yeah. Um, you know, and these are people that we've either all come up together, you know, or they joined the office maybe a little bit after me. And I was a leader in terms of, you know, I had a circuit court docket, I had a lot of trials, and so we would talk trial strategy, you know, and work together. But but my staff for them, you know, I was a colleague and I was a friend, um, you know, and then and then became a boss. So some of those relationships have had to change, you know. Some of them that we might go out for a drink after work, you know, on a Friday that I now step back from. I'm I'm now the boss, I'm not the colleague. You guys go have fun, go, you know, but but I'm in a different role now. So, you know, but they've they've adapted well. Um, and I give them all that credit. Um, you know, we not saying it's not without some learning. And and I think on my part too, you know, learning how the trial work was never gonna be the hard part. I know how to do that job. I've been doing that job. I know how to gosh, don't you wish that was the hard part of the job? Right, right. Like I'm up for that challenge. Right, right. I'm up for that challenge. The, you know, the leading, leading, you know, I have 13 or excuse me, I have 11 attorneys under me. Um, and I have, I think it's 12 support staff under me. You know, and to your point, some of them are older than I am. And some of them have been doing their jobs longer than I have. Um, you know, but really they've all rallied around, supported me. You know, there could have been a max exodus when they were, when I was elected, and and there wasn't, you know, everybody stuck by me, supported me. Um, and we've really kind of, you know, we've had some bumps along the way, um, but we're we're figuring some things out. And I couldn't be more prouder of my staff.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

I'm curious how you how you as a leader figure those things out. Are you like a direct, like we need to talk about this issue? Or are you like uh um, you know, let it work itself out? Like what's your style for navigating that? Yeah, depends.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Depends on the issue, you know. Uh sometimes it's a direct, sometimes, you know, I have a great second in command. Nathan Hall is my chief assistant. Yeah. Um, you know, sometimes I dispatch him, go have a conversation, go see figure out, you know. Um, but but I think I think a positive from being within the office and moving up is they do feel like they can talk to me. Yeah, you know, and so maybe different, you know, different from, you know, Jerry, who was always the elected when we came in, and there was a little bit more of that space, if you will. Um I think the staff do feel like they can come and talk to me. And so they do. They'll come and say, hey, you know, I've got this going on, or hey, there's this issue, or or whatnot. Um, and I do think we problem solve and resolve a lot of things. I've got some really, really great leaders in my office, both attorneys and support staff, um, you know, that that want to do what's best for Jackson County. You know, we have a lot of born and raised in Jackson County attorneys, a lot of born and raised, you know, support staff. They support the mission, what we're trying to accomplish, um, and they work really hard at it.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

So being um, you know, younger, I I I had a job when I got out of college and I was um I was working in a in a plant where I managed like 35 partners and wear really terrible black gross shoes. Well, it's so terrible that style choice was. So well, because I was on my feet for like 12 hours. Sure. Anyway, um, I uh I struggled a lot because I was only like 23, 24 at that time. Um some of them just did not want to respect me at all. It didn't matter. So I'm curious because I think women who are trying to be leaders and making their way through those roles to get to the top can be um really difficult and frustrating sometimes to keep on going. So I'm curious, do you have any advice for women who are trying to do that right now that are maybe feeling that resistance from people that are general dislike?

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Yeah, general dislike that you're never gonna overcome.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah, and I think some of it is. I mean, there's only so much you can control, right? You can only control yourself, you can't control anybody else. Um, but I think the the thing that has served me best is being my most authentic self um and just being me. I can only be me. Yeah. Um, but also listening, you know. Um there was, you know, uh points with the campaign and the election, you know, when none of the pol uh law enforcement unions endorsed me, right? And these are all people that I've worked really closely with. And so that was a little hard for me to kind of swallow and like, okay, but it it gave me an opportunity to say, okay, I gotta drop back in the huddle and what have we got to do to fix this now, right? Because now I'm here and I'm here for a while. Yeah, and we gotta figure out how to work better together. And I it's been really good. We've really done a lot to build those relationships, to grow those relationships, to figure out what they communication-wise were missing from us, you know. So it would have easy been for me to be like, I'm the boss and deal with it, right? But that's not gonna get us anywhere, you know. So there was a lot of listening that I was doing on our end, and I give my law enforcement partners credit because they were doing a lot of listening too. And you know, they were here, and when we would say, Hey, this is what we need, and they said, Oh, okay, well, we can do that. And then when they did that, okay, now we can support your cases, you know, and so we've had a lot of that give and take and a lot of good supporting with one another. Um, and I think our partnerships with our law enforcement, you know, have gotten, I mean, incredibly strong over the last 10 months um as we've worked towards bettering those relationships. So I think those are probably the two biggest things. Not being afraid to recognize that maybe some things need to be changed and and to listen, but also you gotta stay your authentic self, you know. Um, you have to to stick with what you know and what you believe in and and what got you where you are. Um, but not be afraid to tweak and to listen to those. You know, I've got some great trusted advisors that I still kind of, you know, talk to on a weekly basis. I have lunch Tuesday with a super good friend that sometimes, you know, we talk things out and run things by. And, you know, um, I I think that's important to have people you trust and can believe in you, you know, are always believing in me. Um, but you gotta be yourself, but you gotta be able to listen.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

So absolutely is great advice. Great advice.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

And I'm curious, kind of related to that. This is please do not take this as an assumption. Okay, this is a total projection of my own experience. That's where we had it here. A projection. Okay. I am curious how you deal with, and again, I am making an assumption that you can relate to this. Yes. I feel hated a lot of the time. Sure. In the community and in my role as a leader. And the reason is because I am vocal. I'm at a place in my life where I could care less if someone is offended by my opinion and it's not personal to them, and I know it's their own stuff. And I also feel like my um job as a leader is to move an organization, right, that has had kind of a certain path for a while into its next phase. And that does not come without being disliked and having really uncomfortable conversations and holding people's feet to the fire. So I am curious if you feel um like a mass hate or mass dislike in the general role that you're in. Cause I can only imagine whether it's from your team or the community itself or um like leadership community itself, that the cases you try always come with hate. There's always somebody's opposing opinion. Like, right, do you do are you the kind of person where that like rolls off your back? And if not, like, how have you made peace with it? Or do you make no peace with it and you're just drinking a lot of wine? Like, tell us.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Like, tell us what is your vibe? You know, I'm getting better. I will say run an election, run a campaign and you get some tough skin. You know, there were lots of moments where you have to let things just go in one ear and out the other. And, you know, I joke all the time about, you know, 24-year-old Kelsey when I started this as an APA would not be doing this as well as 37-year-old Kelsey does, you know. Um, that, you know, I I have learned a lot about myself. I've learned what I can control and what I can't control, you know. And the the nice thing, if you will, about my job is it comes with a set of rules. It comes with a set of rules, it comes with a set of ethics, it comes with a set of standards. And I have to follow them. You know, doesn't matter necessarily what my heart wants, doesn't matter what my brain wants. Um, I have these rules, I have these standards, you know, I have to follow them. And the hardest part I think is we often in my world deal with grief. And yeah, right, and you know, and I understand that my system is wildly inadequate when it comes to trying to fix grief and trauma. Right? You just can't. It doesn't. It doesn't, it doesn't matter how many years somebody goes to prison, it doesn't matter if they spend the rest of their life in prison, it doesn't bring somebody back, it doesn't change whatever happened to a victim or a family. And there's a trickle down, right? You can have a victim, but then you can have the family and you can have extended family, right? There's all this trickle down from our system. So, you know, I am often able to live in a space where given the information that I have, I have made the best right decision based on the rules and the ethics that I have to follow. Um, do I sometimes look back and go, hmm, could I have done that differently? Sometimes. But I have to say I have been this this is gonna maybe sound silly, but uh impressed with my ability because I don't always have tough skin.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Um but to be okay with I completely relate to that. Like self-impressionary statement. I think that's a great statement.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

But but I have been okay with the decisions that I have made and the reasons, and I've even kind of quietly reflected and said, should I have done something different? And at the end of the day, I go, no. I made the best decision given the ethical rules I have to abide by, giving my rules of evidence of what's admissible and what's not admissible. You know, one of the things we say, I probably say more than anything else, but what I know and what I can prove are two different things. And we can know something happened. We can know somebody did something terrible, but can I prove it? Can I have a person who's gonna come and put a hand up and sit in court and explain it and give the details enough for a jury to believe that this happened? You know, and so what you know and what you can prove are always two different things. And that's hard, right? When families know something have happened and 30 people have told me we know this happened, I I believe you, and I believe you do know. Yeah. But if nobody can come up and put a hand up and nobody actually saw or nobody actually heard straight from kind of the horse's mouth kind of a thing, I can't use that. And that's a really hard thing for families and victims and grieving family members to hear. Um and accept. And accept, right? And sometimes they don't. We can explain it, we can explain it a couple times and they may never accept it. And that's that's you know, I've I've done what I can do and and tried to explain and tried to educate and tried to um, but I get, you know, I got enough, I've done enough of those kid cases to know that the trauma and the brain space and you know, some of that just doesn't resonate. It'll resonate when when when it does, and that's okay. I'm here and um, but I've actually surprised myself at how okay I've been with the decisions we've made, at least for 2025. Um, you know, and where we've stood and how we've resolved cases. And are there things to learn? Absolutely. You know, and it um, you know, we got a a not guilty a couple weeks ago when I have been so grateful that immediately Chris Simpson, chief uh, you know, for the city, reached out and said, Hey, let's let's have a debrief here. Let's figure out what went well, what didn't go well, what we could do differently. And I said, Chris, in my 12 years of doing this, nobody's ever done this. I've never had a leadership come and say, Hey, I love Chris, he's I do too. He's great. But I've never had a leadership go, hey, I'm gonna bring my defense to the table, you're gonna bring your APAs to the table, we're gonna sit down. I don't, I don't know that we're gonna, well, we would have changed anything, but we're gonna look at it and we're gonna figure out if there's something we could have done differently. And I was like, dude, I'm all in for this. And I'd love to do more of that. Yeah. Um, you know, we don't, you know, luckily don't have a lot of not guilties that come through our office when we have trials. Um, but but they happen, and you know, juries have a hard job to do when they're evaluating all the evidence.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

And there was recently a murder case that I was very disappointed I wasn't called in for jury duty. Not because I don't, I don't want anyone ever to be murdered, but it wasn't the one-week commitment that sounded very appealing. For someone like me who loves Drew Crown, I want to.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

I recently was called to jury duty for a murder case.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

And I wasn't very disappointed in her that she didn't try harder to get on the jury, which I was really disappointed.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

There are people, what I will say is this um, I I have heard lots of that, right? Who I want to be on a jury. I want to be on a jury, I want to be on a jury. I can tell you there is not a single job harder than sitting on a homicide phone.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

So it's easy for me to say because I'm like, I didn't get called and it's a joke. But Alex would, she would come back and she'd be like, there are people who are so like you, and they're like, please call on me.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

So I was gonna think is it John Fleming who's assistant prosecutor? Yep. Okay, so he was one of he was the one that was questioning the jurors. Yep. He did an excellent job.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

And John's one of my newer attorneys, and he's just a rock star really job.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

He's got emotional intelligence. Yep. But one of the questions that he asked everybody was rate it one to ten how bad you want to be on this. Yeah. And I thought that was a genius question. Because what's going to do?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

We honestly don't overly want the tens, right? We don't overly want the telling we don't want the ones, right? We want people who are okay with being there, but like this isn't the highlight of their year. You know, we we want, yeah. Oh, there was a guy that this was the highlight of his year. Kelsey said a couple years ago, um, there was somebody on the jury who was seated, not selected, but seated for a period of time, who um was obsessed with Judge McBain's podcast. Um Lily was like, Can I get a selfie with you? Can I get your autograph? And I was like, okay, you can do those things on your way out the door. Like, but but she was. She was such a of love of loving the system and the process. And that's great. Unbelievable. But not great for sitting on our jury. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

I actually honestly would rather never be called because I get to geek out over things. Like I it would ruin true crime for me. My aunt used to tell Alex and I, we love spas, don't ever own one. She has threaten us with the like, do not own one because you will ruin your love. Right. That's how I feel about journey.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

And that's why, you know, I had I and I'll never forget, I had a juror who was up there and was seated for now her second homicide. She had done one like six days prior, like sat on a jury, and she's like, Look, guys, I just I would feel remiss if I don't make sure everybody here understands how difficult this is. And she was like, I found them guilty last time. I will, you know, evaluate the evidence, you know, as as I'm supposed to, but I need everybody to understand how difficult this is. You know, when you're doing cases and you're sitting on a jury, you are not supposed to take into account what the punishment is going to be. Okay. You get instructed about that, the judge will tell you, punishment's up to us. You're just here to decide if it happened. Oh my God, that's so stressful. But but when it comes to a homicide, everybody knows, right, what these consequences are, right? You might not know what the consequence is for stealing something out of a building, right? You might not know what the consequence is, you know. But when it comes to a homicide, most of the population knows in general what we're talking about, you know. So It's hard to set that aside. It's hard to you have your own common sense. You have your own brain. You know, we can tell you, and you're presumed to follow instructions, and I get that. But it's hard sometimes to set homicides are hard to sit on juries. They are.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Well, I mean, Judge McBain was the judge and he did a fantastic job.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

He actually scolded us a couple times because people were falling asleep. Yeah. Oh yeah. Judge McBain knows how I mean, you know, he knows how to run a courtroom. He was on it, man. He's great. He um, yes, we we enjoy trying cases in his courtroom. Um, he enjoys when we try cases. You know, he's a former prosecutor, so he likes trying cases. Yeah. Um, but we we enjoy. I uh for about four years I was assigned to Judge McBain. So he and I have done a lot of trials together. I've probably tried more cases in front of him than anywhere else in the county. So it was an interesting process to witness. Yeah. And and what there is, you know, that process of how we figure out who are 14 people that are gonna pay attention, stay awake, evaluate, you know. Um, but but stay away. You know, probably sometimes that's on bar sometimes, you know. Um, you know, but one of the questions I tend to ask, you know, is do you work a night shift? You know, or what, you know, I in a bit of the job's not gonna let you take the week off. Well, now you're up all night and now you're up all day. Like, there's no way you can pay attention, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:11

You know, or just like have the like reasoning. Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

You know, are you a stay-at-home mom and now you're panicking about who's getting your kid off the bus, you know, or who's watching your other kid at home, you know. So those are a lot of the things, you know, we have a lot of peremptories, especially in our capital cases, that we can use. And so we tend to be able to find 14 people who are willing to sit, are willing to evaluate, you know, effectively, pay attention, and come to whatever they think is the right conclusion. That's all we can ask.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

So one of the questions that I had for you was that going through that process, not going through it, but witnessing it, I was never, my name was never called. Although at the end I was like, do I want to do this? Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Yeah, I was extremely disappointed. I cannot state that enough.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Anyway, I hated her on a met journal. Yeah, Mando, Mando's really ruined for me. But one of the questions that I have is that I'm a Pisces. I was born in February. I take everything, I like soak it. I'm like an empathetic person, so I can feel the energy. And you may not deal with that, but my question is like, because you're dealing with grief and trauma so much, how do you deal with that when you get home?

SPEAKER_01 24:16

We call that vicarious trauma in our world. Okay. Um, and uh, there's actually lots of trainings, lots of things in prosecutors and law enforcement, you know, both that we it's a secondary trauma, right? So it's I've read a police report because we often have the worst of the worst, right? Yeah. The worst things that people do to one another, right? We're reading about like just the exposure to what humanity does sometimes. Exactly. You know, um, and so I um, you know, there there's a lot of different things. Um, different points in my career, you know, I used to swim with the Y over lunch. Um, I have found for me breathing and movement. So yoga is also a really great one for me. Um, you know, if I go and play volleyball, my brain doesn't turn off enough. If I go and play basketball, my brain doesn't turn off enough. But if I have to count my breaths, one, two, three, breathe while I'm swimming. One, two, three, breathe while I'm swimming, that's then all I can focus on.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

And I can at least get my brain to slow down a little bit. I can at least get my brain to, you know, I have uh been diagnosed with ADHD much later in life, you know, as women. That's not a thing. If you're the high achieving kid in school, oh my god, are you maybe I am too. Right. Well, if you're the high achieving kid in school, you know, especially for girls, you know, our age growing up, nobody ever looked at you for ADHD, right? I can sit still, I can read a book. I obviously am highly educated. Um, right, you know, but my brain never turns off.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

I was gonna say, but you're hyper focused, hyper inability to turn it off. Never can turn off, right? This home slice? You don't even know. Fridays at eight, there's a lot of aerobics going on in her kitchen for no reason whatsoever. So um, and a lot of sheet changing and laundry and things where I'm like, dude, we are chilling and drinking marks. Like, I need you to relax.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

One of the big biggest indicators for my medical professionals when we were trying to figure out, you know, what is at play, why will my brain never turn off? Was my caffeine intake. Um, and the amount of caffeine. Kelsey, stop speaking. Don't the amount of caffeine that I consume in a day. And they're like, oh yeah, no, so that that's and it was and it was uh caffeine helps me settle. It's it was helping me settle. Um, and so you talk about now that I've got these two foster kiddos and you know, they're they're a lot. Um, we're figuring out our new system, but they're a lot. Um, I am finding caffeine again, you know, even though I am I am taking my medication and whatnot, but I, you know, I'm finding that a Red Bull at five o'clock at night is what I need just to kind of re- That's so fascinating because I've always said that about coffee, that coffee doesn't ramp me up, it chills me out.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

It does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

So that, you know, that's a little bit of the uh a brain chemistry that I have learned. So, anyways, um interesting. You know, you talk about now though, I got three kiddos under 10. So, you know, swimming is not as much on my, you know, I do a lot of audiobooks. Um, you know, we I you know, they can be watching their movie at home and I have an audiobook in my ears. Um, and Harry Potter is tends to be the one that is my go-to. I was gonna say, is it like self-help style or is it like my I have probably listened to the Harry Potter series one through seven legit a hundred times. Um I could quote, you know, you could give me a line in a book and I could tell you what it's from. I could tell you the scene surrounding it. It's such a relaxing thing for me, right? I know what's coming, I have no questions, I can put it in. It's enough of a balance, but it's not distracting. Um I can still take care of kids, I can still whatever, but I it it's my so right now that's my biggest calming um kind of technique. Um, you know, I do have an open bottle of wine in my fridge too. Yeah. Helps sometimes once everyone in bed. Um I was out of wine last night and I was like, oh, that everybody's asleep. Um yeah, nope, nope. There's sometimes a glass of wine involved. But um, the audiobooks, the Harry Potter books. It's also what I sleep to at night. I turn them on, I turn the sleep timer on for 20 minutes because I know what's happening. It gives me enough to focus on, but not outside. Right. And so then I can fall asleep. Um, you know, and then kiddos get me up at all hours of the night, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

It's a season of like oh, I I hate this question and I don't know how to ask it different. How are you staying sane? And the reason I hate the question is because like none of us are sane. So I don't mean it like, you know, how are you especially what is your self-care? It's more so more what I mean is like, how are you functioning? Yeah, how are you functioning at a a somewhat decent level every single day? Like, how are you doing that?

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Um, you know, I laughed because I I've had these kiddos now for about a month and I laughed because it's fresh. It's very fresh, it's very fresh. But I've laughed. It's very much a nightmare. Uh noted. I laughed because coming to work is the respite, right? I was like, who would have thought that like running this office is actually less stressful than my homeworld right now, which is fine. These are two very sweet boys.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

I have a co-worker, an old coworker who used to every morning when I would get to work, because my son's almost three. And so after I had my son, every morning when I would get to work, he would say, The hardest part of your day is over. Welcome. Right, right. And I was like, A freaking men.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

Oh it's so three drop-offs in the morning. Oh, you know, before I get even into the building, I have dropped three kiddos off at three different places and put clothes on. And then everybody is dressed for a lunch in their back snacks. Are you kidding a little bit? We don't get a full breakfast in, but we got some snacks on board, you know, some granola bars and glass of milk and a banana as we're walking out the door, and um lunches are made, though I do most of those at night. But um yeah, so you know, I I have a great support system. That's about all I can say. Yeah, um, you know, I get that. Yeah. Uh parents that are just phenomenal. Um, I would not, I would not have done the foster journey without my mom and dad being on board. My sister lives in town. Um, you know, she does a lot with my son. He plays hockey, so he's skating four days a week. And so she does a lot of transporting him for me, you know, or I'll drop him off.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

I don't know if you're listening to this or not, but like I just need you to listen to the sister part. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Yeah, yeah. I don't have kids. I'm a dog. Yes. And and and she um, yeah, she's got a a kiddo that that lives in her home part-time as well. But she um she's funny, you know. So I'll drop my my nine-year-old off at hockey, but then she'll pick him up so I can get kids home and get the other two in bed. And that's amazing. She brings them back home. So, you know, without my village, I would not be able to add, you know, I overnight tripled the the children in my household. And um, you know, I laughed because I have two dogs and a torto tortoise as well. So my gosh. I'm I have reached my capacity though of living things that rely on me. We're at six and we're we're that's as much as you can do. We've hit capacity. Yep. Um, you know, and uh, but yeah, I mean my family's phenomenal and and my staff has been great, you know, because I said, hey, you know, I'm I'm out for the next couple of days as we try to adapt when I first got them, you know, and they were great. And, you know, calling me, keeping me in the loop. I obviously have technology is great for that kind of stuff, you know. But um, you know, my chief assistant just keeps everything rolling there, you know, when need be. And now we're back into the flow, you know, and I'm back in the office, you know, eight to five again, and we're we're cruising through. So um we're figuring out our new normal.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

But so Kelsey, I just need to share with you the differences of our lives. We did a sleepover with my sister, my aunt, my mom, my son, and I. My sister is amazing. Do not get me wrong. However, my mother offered to massage my feet for like five minutes. I desperately needed that foot row. Sure. Okay, my son had not slept the whole night before. He was super stressed, and I was like, Alex, Alex, will you come play with Forrest? Alex, she ignored me. She straight up pretended like I was not speaking, she couldn't hear me, and then had the audacity, audacity, after I finally had to get up to play with my son because he needed the attention to come get my foot rub.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

No, I didn't. I didn't take your spade. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

You came in, you came in, you were like, Oh, I see Amanda's taken back over. Don't don't lie. Yeah, because mom mom offered to me first and I said, You don't have to do that, mom. No, we're good, we're good.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

That's so funny. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

So our our yeah, I have a village. Well, I've redo Yeah, I would yeah, but you know, though, like my mom texted, you know, I don't know why she was up at 6 a.m. this morning, but I most assuredly was up at 6 a.m. this morning, and she's like, Well, you know, do you want me to come and scoop up kids? Because we were actually up at 4 45 this morning because the youngest one wasn't sleeping. And yeah, um, I was like, I you know, we're already an hour away from the day anyway. So by the time you get here from 20 minutes, like I appreciate it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

But um Alex will be Alex will be amazing when he becomes a teen.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

And she's probably before 10, right before 10.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Sure. And she also is the rich auntie. So if Forrest wants anything, I literally am like, Auntie's nearby. Go ask her.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

You know, and my older one is my older one is nine. Um, you know, and um my sister has been back in town with us for the last three, four-ish, three-ish years. I think we're coming up on three-ish years. Um, you know, so she's really she before then she just lived not in the area, right? So she's really only had to do a lot of this from the six to nine range, right? Yeah. It's a pretty, right, you know, it's I like that range. She's gonna thrive. Yeah, exactly. And a baby person. Yeah, no, no. And I don't know, toddler. Yeah, I don't know that she is either, you know, a different world for her, but she's thriving in in this nine-year-old, you know, realm. I love that for her. He and her are two peas in a pod, and he loves his time with her. And, you know, he looks forward to, you know, is Aunt Kara picking me up or, you know, and even my extended family, my aunt and uncle, you know, there were a couple weeks there that I was gonna be late picking my son up from Lego Club. And so at first then I was like, my aunt lives down the road. Hey, can you scoop him up from Lego Club for these next two weeks and you know, take him home and then I'll be home within a half hour. And she's like, Yep, done and done. She's like, Can I feed him? I go, I'm sure he'd love if you feed him, you know. And so she picked him up from Lego Club and took him to McDonald's. And you know, he's amazing. Um, you're giving me hope. That will be Alex when forest is nine. I already know it. You know, it grows and grows and grows. And I actually have so many moms as well. You know, when your kids in school, you start to find the moms of the friends that you click with like, you know. So that first week I had those, they had the extra kiddos in the house. Um, every other day, somebody dropped off dinner for me. Um and it was just that's amazing. It's so helpful. It was just my friends, you know. I didn't ask about it. It was just all of a sudden, hey, I've got food coming today. Somebody else has food coming Wednesday, we got food coming on Friday, you know, and I didn't have to make any dinners, you know. So that whole week we were just fun in our groove, but all I had to do was stick stuff in a microwave. Right. Um, you know, and that was so I mean that it's the it's the women that I have around me, it's the moms. Um, that piece has been great.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Do you have any final questions you want to ask, Amanda?

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Yeah, okay. So because I'm not allowed to ask like confidential questions. Sure, sure. What you got? I am curious if there are any cases you guys are working on, your office is working on right now that you wish, or even ones you just tried that you wish maybe more people knew about because they don't like necessarily get spotlight or anything like that, but you think it's like important that people know it's happening in our community or that you know you guys are working on something. Is there anything you wish more people knew that you guys are doing or working on?

SPEAKER_01 35:07

You know, Nathan Clark does a lot of the M Live stuff, and I I think we work well with him. Um, he does a pretty good job if he's looking at something, gives me an opportunity to chime in on it if I want to. Um, you know, I think we've had a good working relationship for the last year, you know, as um he does lots of most of our coverage. Um, but you know, it's hard because the cases that I sometimes wish got some more press, which would be some of those vulnerable cases. Yeah. The flip side is I don't want to put more pressure on those kiddos. On the kids or the victims, right? You know, and you know, we sometimes talk about doing a press release for a defendant or a really big sentence, but putting his name out in the world is gonna out our victim. Yeah. And so we don't do that because we don't want to out our victim, you know. But we recently had a sentence, um, Sam McArthur in my office uh tried a CSC on a child in front of Judge Jordan. Um, and I think for the first time in Judge Jordan's career, Judge Jordan um ran those charges consecutive, which means he's doing a minimum of 50 years in prison. You know, but for us to put some of that stuff out there is gonna now out who that victim is. Yeah. So, you know, sometimes that's hard, but so there's a lot of cases that we are working on and getting really, really good results, but I'm hesitant to put some of that big information out there, you know. Um, you know, and I will say this because a lot of attention has obviously come on Mia Sims's case and Antonio Green's case. And you know, lots of people want to talk about, well, it's because of who her uncle is, right? And this got solved because of this and that and all of that, you know. But is it? And that's what I I what I kind of continue to say when people talk about that is that case was solved because four young men came forward. Yeah, that case was solved because within 24 hours, four young men all sat down with law enforcement and said, This is what we know. Um Wow. That's how brave that totally came out. Yeah, but it's it's not because of who Daniel Mahoney is, right? It's not because of who Mia is, even though she is a spectacular person and was doing a lot of great things in our community. But it was because four young men said, you know what? We're we're we're not gonna keep this one close to our vac. As so many of our homicides happened, so many of them, you know, and we've had kind of this flood of, well, that one got solved, so why can't mine get solved? And I would love to solve all of them. Yeah, but I need people to come forward, put a butt in a seat, as I said, right, and put that hand up. And those four young men all shut up to court, all tested, all were consistent with what they had said they had, you know, had seen and had observed. Um, you know, that's how cases get resolved. That's are solved, excuse me. That's how cases can move forward in our system. Um, you know, there are lots of cases that have family members that are prominent people in our community that are unsolved because I didn't get people to come forward. You know, Mia's case is unique in that people came forward, not what happened, not how it happened, not how it was solved. Exactly. Um, you know, and um, you know, we extradite people back from all sorts of cases. I think we have destroyed the sheriff's budget this year in extraditing people back. Um, you know, we've done seven or eight extraditions that are from way out west, you know, and everybody wanted to say, oh, well, they only extradited it back because it was Mia's case. Nope. We just don't tell you all, you know, on all the other extraditions, right? You know, so because of, you know, some of the circumstances, obviously that got a lot of press, and we get that. Um, you know, but it's uh, you know, there's a lot of cases, you know, we around that same time we had charged the homicide from 40 some years ago, you know, when we brought that guy back from Florida, um, you know, and that one has lost some of its, you know, uh information out there because it kind of happened around the same time. Yeah, you know, but but JSO and Detective Easter, Detective Mark Easter, Detective Kelly Ibersol, they were able to put a case together that solved a 40-year-old homicide cold case. That's unbelievable. Um, and he's back sitting in our own. Right and like ask for information. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

I love a cold case.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah, you can and and it's out there, you can Google it. Um, and it's it's been um, you know, it's it's it's a good they've they've worked hard at it and they've worked hard to put the pieces together. Um, you know, but so there there's lots of work that's being done at law enforcement's doing a really, really good job of that, you know. Um, they're putting together really, really good investigations.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Um, and you know, so we're able to do some more stuff with it. But it starts with people being willing to talk. Um, that's what we need for our community.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

And then I do have one final question, and that is being in the role that you're in doing the things that you do undoubtedly shows you the worst parts of Jackson. But even within that viewpoint, what are some of the positives you have seen in Jackson because of the review you get?

SPEAKER_01 39:39

That's a super good question. You know, I think it's uh we try to be mindful in our world that really we see repeat offenders, we get frustrated that what we're doing's not working, you know, especially with the younger kids, you know, and whatnot. And um, you know, we have to remind ourselves that we're dealing with less than two percent of our population. You know, that we've got thousands of cases, we're still dealing with a very, very small population of Jackson County. And a lot of Jackson County doesn't like, you know, all of the cases that we have and everything that's going on. Um you know, so some of the things that I I am pleased with, for lack of a better word, um, you know, some of the collaborative efforts, you know. So I'm on a group of people we meet monthly, quarterly, I think it's monthly. Um, and it's uh it's a collaborative of community leaders and law enforcement leaders and some government leaders. Yeah, I remember this group. And we have an active conversation. And and there's there's one that meets, you know, in in one segment, and then there's a different group that has some overlap but has some different, you know, and so we're all looking at ways that the community and law enforcement can can be together, can join together, um, and can support one another, you know, and there's there's some really, really good community leaders and we're working on, you know, we're working on revamping our juvenile justice system because we just don't think it's working right now. And what we're doing is not working, so we need to try something new. Um we've had a lot of great people come to the table and kind of how we're revamping that and a lot of support with that, you know, and the juvenile system is based on rehabilitation. And so what are we doing to really affect change and and try to change mindsets of young people, um, you know, 13, 14, 15, 16. Um, unfortunately, a lot of the violence in our community comes from 15, 16, 17 years old. And it's really hard, babies. They're babies, um, and it's really hard, you know. Um it's they don't understand long-term consequences. We know what brain science tells us they don't understand long-term consequences, and so trying to figure out, you know, how to balance some of that stuff is really, really hard. Um, sometimes they make really grown-up decisions and sometimes they have some pretty grown-up consequences. Um, and that's kind of part of it as well. Um, but we have uh we have some work, you know, ahead of us. But I'm really grateful for the collaborativeness between the community leaders. I know some of the government leaders and law enforcement really is working together, I think, to try to create some new changes.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

And I think that would be true across Jackson. I I can repeatedly hear that, particularly from you know, people who come from the outside to do any work here. Like the way we work together and the people who live here deeply care about Jackson. Yep. And I do think just in the in the line of work that you're in, that that collaborative effort has gone that way pretty recently, but long enough now that like positive impacts can happen for the whole community. And absolutely. So I'm glad that it's um that's true um even in your line of work. But if you ever need an armchair detective to support your work, I'm here for it. I'm your girl. Sure. I will Ashley Flowers and I will put our best crime cookie mats up. I love that. And um, but I'm just so grateful that you came and you chatted with us about leadership and about your role itself and um just uh being able to have you here and even just like meet my sister and chat a little bit. For our Michigan Chat Girls is awesome because uh we appreciate what you're doing for Jackson and we're really proud that we live in a city um where the first female prosecutor can um be in elected position.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

So we're grateful that you're here. Thank you so much for joining. You're welcome. You cracked me up with your podcast because all of my friends are like, oh, you gotta check out this podcast. I was like, guys, that's my everyday. I don't want to go home and listen to my podcast. No, no, this one's a really good. I was like, nope, still my everyday. Like, still don't want to go home and listen to it. Right? It's not like they've stopped recommending, but my, you know, two of my best friends are like, no, no, but you gotta hit nope, I really don't. I I love you.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

I'm really committed to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Thank you for doing, thank you for coming on hours and talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

No, absolutely. I've tried to make this one all about murder and it just hasn't consistently happened yet. But I am I'm still working my way there.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

I will let you know how it feels. Well, and if I can just have parting words, you know, I think the biggest thing to make our community safer um is to continue to to speak up when you see stuff. And I know it's hard, and I know everybody, you know, I get the honest fear of worried about what happens to you or what happens to your family. Um, and we can't do anything to protect anybody if we don't know about what's happening, you know. And so um it's it's my biggest takeaway, my biggest hope with as much press as Mia's case has gotten is that people will recognize it's. Because people chose to talk. And they chose to come forward. And if more people came forward, more cases would be solved. And we could honor those that have passed away and get justice for people. And you know, people know who shot people. Um, there's an unsolved homicide out of the foundry that has literally a hundred witnesses, but nobody saw anything. We have nobody saw anything. If people came forward and said what they saw, we would have less unsolved homicides. So yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

And some form of justice into the people who were involved. So thank you so much for joining us. We're super grateful, Kelsey Guernsey, Alex Beston, Amanda Loveland. Thanks for joining us, everybody.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

All right, everybody, make sure that you find us on your favorite place that you get your podcast, whether it's Spotify or YouTube or wherever that is, because we're gonna have another great episode coming at you. Bye. Talk to me.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Okay.