Multiple Revenue Streams, One Vision — How she Built a Business Portfolio That Actually Works with Devon Roof

What happens when comfort gets ripped away and you're forced to choose between wallowing or grabbing the opportunity in front of you? That's the question at the heart of Devon Roof's story. In this episode, Alex and Amanda sit down with Devon, the entrepreneur behind Belle Row Boutique and Epic Blue Marketing, to talk about building a portfolio of businesses while real life keeps throwing curveballs. From a tanning salon that taught her how to run a brick and mortar, to a corporate job that landed her in the tiny curated boutiques of SoHa and lit the spark for Belle Row, this conversation is equal parts inspiring, honest, and surprisingly tender. 

Deven opens up about running two tracks at once, never losing sight of the dream while still paying the bills, and the moment everything caught fire and pushed her back to her hometown to start over. Digging into the improv rule of "yes, and," the discipline of focusing only on what you can control, and why learning to be comfortable in uncomfortable things might be the most valuable skill an entrepreneur can have. And because grief and very real life don't pause for business, Devon shares how the hard seasons shaped the way she shows up today. 

In this episode: 

• The two-track strategy: chasing the dream while still paying the bills
• How a tanning salon and a corporate job secretly trained her to be a business owner
• The SoHa boutiques that sparked the idea for Belle Row
• When life goes up in flames, and why that might be a good thing
• The improv rule of "yes, and" applied to entrepreneurship and curveballs
• Focusing only on what you can control, and getting comfortable being uncomfortable
• Building and running multiple businesses through grief and real life

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Michigan Tribe Podcast. Today we have a great friend and Shiro of an entrepreneur, Devin Roof, joining us to talk about what it's like to own multiple businesses, find your discipline and how you can make those businesses thrive, but also how you can make that even remotely possible when grief and very real life are happening. So let's dive in.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Three, two, one. Talk to me.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Welcome to the Michigan Tribe Podcast. We are very fortunate today to have probably the reason we have a podcast on the show with us. Actually. So before I even introduce you, we need to introduce the Michigan Tribe Podcast and literally why we even started it, which is how many years ago did we start on uh Hot Tubs and Entrepreneurs? Oh my gosh, how many times? Is it been two years, three years? Longer than that.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Really? Probably since I've owned my house. Yeah. So how long is that? Stop. No way. So I closed on in 2020 during COVID.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

No way, six years? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Okay, so for six years, we have been meeting at Devin Roof's home. Devin. Once Devin Bradley at that time. You haven't even married yet. That's crazy. And now you are married to Eric Roof, who can be all of our husbands if we'd like to. And uh you you invited us over for something that we called a podcast. And we sat in a hot tub and talked about entrepreneurship. And we it had literally is still on my calendar when we do these things as Hot Tubs and Entrepreneur Podcast. Remember we were gonna do it in the hot tub with the little mic?

unknown 1:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

We forgot about the little mic plan. We should do it one time. I forgot about and and now Devin actually has a podcast, and I advised her to actually do it in the hot tub, which she doesn't do. She doesn't do it like a legitimate podcast, and I was like, invite people over. This is awesome. It's my favorite night.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Shout out to Hour of Happy. Everybody checked out of Hour of Happy.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Thank you. Thanks, girls. And maybe I should actually, you know, take your recommendation. Maybe that'll get more with your tiny money. Tiny mics coming in hot.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Tiny mics. Do it with the freaking belly. Fucking belly, baby. You can't do hot tubs. Oh, cool the top. Cool it down. It's a tiny colour. That's right. Cool it down to have bubbles going. So everybody thinks it's a hot tub. The jet's coming. Okay. So welcome. The reason why we have an actual podcast, Devin Roof. Devin girls. Devin like one of our best friends for sure. And I say our, like we're one person. We are one. We kind of are, but we are one person. But we met Devin at a time when I had just moved back. You had just moved back. And you at that time had recently closed down a brick and mortar boutique that is still alive to this day, but you transformed into a new concept. And you also were toying with the idea of still keeping your marketing company, starting it up, making a PR company in a larger scale. You're still toying with it. And you were working full-time jobs. So you are undoubtedly a multi-entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Thank you. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

And you now have a Epic Blue, which is a marketing and PR firm that helps small businesses, nonprofits, people who are growing in big ways, some people who are launching and starting up. And you really help them to catch traditional marketing traction from a PR standpoint, social media traction to make sure that they're being consistent and creating high quality content. And also to strategize. Like, how do I actually make this all work together to drive towards sales instead of just like posting a random reel on social media and being like, let us hope it brings me someone? You're very strategic. You have a pop-up boutique, an in-home boutique experience for Belroe. And you currently do not have a full-time job. But I just want to acknowledge sometimes you've done that with a full-time job. So, like, how? Yeah. Explain yourself to me. How are you doing that?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yes. So that started back when I was still living in Lansing. Um, I was working full-time in the PR industry there. So after graduating from Michigan State, I stayed in the East Lansing area. Um, ended up buying a house in Hazlitt and launched my career and worked up there for the first nine years of my career, um, which was wonderful. You know, I gained agency experience, nonprofit experience. Um, but my last job before kind of going off and freelancing and pouring everything into Belrow was I was a PR director at Lansing Community College. And so that was my last full-time, heavy full-time job. Um, and I was working that job when I started the brick and mortar for Belrow in 2013. Um, and it was a lot, but I knew I needed to pay for my house. I was, you know, not married yet. I had a house, I had a lifestyle that, you know, I wanted to keep, but especially the house.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

The baby deals and boat conversations are very real, even though neither of us have had a baby.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

But we talk about it and you try to enlist me to be your driver. And I have rules about that. And nurse.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, Domin and I want to get surgery together in a moment.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Plus her. And you've girls have a strategy to take care of yourselves because you know how I feel about it.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Lifestyle. The lifestyle that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yes. Dreams. Yeah. Dreams happened yet.

unknown 5:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

But okay. So you have to, yeah, you you have a certain lifestyle, you want it to sustain.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah. And even just the basics, then, you know, when I say lifestyle, I'm kind of like choking that back because I remember one time even being in the grocery store and checking out and having my cart full and having to leave it because I didn't have enough money in my bank account. And that's when I knew like I need to keep hustling full time in order to just do basic things in the world now.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Basic things. We all have to hustle to literally pay for groceries, own a home. Like, yeah, the hustle required just to live a life now.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Absolutely. And so, yeah, so I kind of did both. And I would work full time, eight to five at the college, and then head to the store in the evening. And I had staff, they were wonderful. I had girls' staff in the store, you know, during the day. My mom helped out. Um, and on the weekends I would work too. And I know she's everywhere. If you've attended any of our pop-up shops, you know my mom, Diane Bradley, yes, and she helps. And my dad helps set up and tear down. And when Eric's in town, he helps. I mean, everyone, I'm so grateful to have the help and support you know, that I do for that. But um, especially with brick and mortar, you know, having rent uh where we were at and being in Ace Lansing, that rent was great. Not small. That was not small. Yeah. And yeah, and then paying for staff, you know, to employ at the store and payroll and all of that and the taxes on that, in addition to merch, because owning a clothing boutique like that.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

I was gonna say retail's margins are not big enough to make that make sense to me. Like, and you still have done it for so long, but but I've had to adjust to accommodate.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Um, yeah, because it is tough. It is tough, and having all of that. So I knew I needed that salary to supplement all of those things.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

And um how old were you when you did the started uh Bell Row?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

I was 27.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

27.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, so 27 and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

And why did you decide you wanted to do that? Like, yeah, why was retail your thing? Yeah, like why?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

I I never intended on it being retail or fashion or anything like that, but I knew from an early age I've always wanted to own my own business. I just didn't know what that looked like. But that all being said, I've also known that I have to learn skills from anywhere that I could in order to set myself up as an entrepreneur. Yeah. Now I didn't think of it necessarily that way in my brain, but every job I worked, whether it was in high school or in college after tanning salon, coaching gymnastics, working at the buckle, like any job I worked, I was a sponge. And I learned different things that I could apply now to my businesses today.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Um What were some of the hardest ones to learn that like I remember when I like owned a business and um I kind of was at this pivotal growth moment and I either had to go all in and go through a couple hard years to get past this kind of solopreneur to hiring people and things like that, right? Or I was young enough that I was like, I could also close this down right now and like go learn at other places. And probably my biggest lesson that I needed to learn was how to manage people. Yeah. Oh my God, I needed it so bad. I like I didn't know how to delegate jobs, I knew how to delegate tasks. It was like everyone came to me every day and was like, what do I do today? Right. So like I wanted to learn that lesson. So for me, that was a big one that took a lot of time and energy to build. So when you were when you were there learning, what were the hardest ones for you to learn to develop the skills you needed to be an entrepreneur?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Yeah. I think for me, it comes more to like the soft skill side. So like understanding that you have to have patience and being an entrepreneur, it's the long game. It's all about the long game. Nothing comes that fast. And I had to stomach it. And that's why entrepreneurship is not for everybody. It is, it's gonna be extremely hard. And only the people that can stomach it survive and push on through and find a way. And you're gonna know if it's meant for you, if you're willing to find a way despite being at the lowest of low or really, really struggling. And I did, and that's why even for Bel Row um, the transition from brick and mortar to pop-up shop style and online shopping and girls' night out events. I wasn't ready to let that go. You know, I could have been like, eh, you know, I'm just gonna do freelancing. Yeah, I wasn't ready, you know, and I knew I still wanted this, and Belro meant so much to me because it was more than just a store. I had created this community now of customers and very much that's still at the core for you in Belro.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Like that's obvious if you shop at Devon's pop-ups or if you go to her home for a pop-up or you see a girls' night out, or you even see your promotions, like it is a community, it's not just a place you shop. So true.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Yeah, and that's so special. Yeah, that is so special, and and I didn't want to let that go. Yeah, you know, and so I knew I had to find a way, and at that time, um, yeah, because it would have been 2016. So that's when like the food trucks and all of that style stuff was really starting to kind of pop up and happen. And so I was like, I'll give it a shot with the clothing boutique and see how it goes. And um reached out Sand Hill Crane Vineyards was my first pop-up shop partner here in Jackson. Woman-owned business. Yes, and they're wonderful. And um at that point, you know, I'd move back and yeah, and it was like tapping in, you know, reaching out to other small businesses. But in doing so, and I want to make this clear, you know, for listeners and and people, you know, talking about networking or joining groups or that sort of thing, is um some of these networks I was tapping into at this point had already grown. And I think that's so important to say because a lot of people walk into rooms or spaces and it's like whether it's a mastermind or a networking group, and it's like, okay, this is what I need, who can help me? Yeah, right. And I've I've never really one thing I always tell people is no, you show up and you be the person in the room that says, How can I help you? Yeah, what can I do? Tell me what you're working on. And so when it did come time to tap into this new kind of model and try, that network was already there. Yeah. So when it comes to business, you guys, like anyone listening, you have to grow your network before you need them.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Before you need them. And sustain it and have genuine relationships with them. So I have a I have a friend out in Arizona. What up, Amanda? Yes, my name's Amanda. Her name's Amanda too. What's up, Amanda? Um, and so she just launched a business, Simple Wish Co. And it's it's a super cool idea. It's where you can uh purchase it's um um, it's like a card you send people, but you uh it's a it's almost like a candle. It has like wax and a wick, and you can like manifest something, you can make a wish, right? And like you can send it for a birthday, all these things. And when I was out there visiting her, I was talking to her about she was she had just gotten started and she was like, I don't know who to approach. Like, you know, I don't want to just walk up to a boutique owner because she's doing all online sales, right? But she wants to be in some boutiques, and she was like, I just want to walk in and be like, hi, can my stuff be here? And so we started a conversation about like this girl, she owned a boutique before in Maine. Like, she I was like, Where are you already shopping? Like, who do you already know? Those are the people you want to call, those are the long game people that it's not a conversation of like, hi, I want to be here. It's like a normal conversation you get to have with the person who you've shopped with for 10 years, or you've gone to what are what are they called when you go and you shop the major, like where you're going to look for brands to shop? Yeah, the shows. Yeah, so like what are who are those people you've bought from and things like that? Yes. Where you can go in your normal shopping day and be like, by the way, I started a business. Like, can I talk to you about it? And like, would you be a fit? Do you know any good fits? There can be so much more natural conversations from your current network that you've already worked to build. Because that was one thing at Michigan Tribe, we made an absolute boundary when we started the organization. Like, do not come here to sell.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Right, exactly. We're not a BI.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Do not walk in this room never being here before and be like, hi, I have a service to give you. Yeah, walk in to have a normal conversation with other entrepreneurs, like build your network, grow your people here. And you girls do an excellent job with that, by the way. Thanks. It's because we don't tolerate no Mandy Lays on the law. Yeah, it's so important to us. Like we need, we need community as entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

So they there is like a stat out there that a lot of women don't like become entrepreneurs in their 40s because they have built up their network. And they finally and then they finally have the people to be able to, you know. So that's an interesting stat that I've recently learned. That is so, and I would totally agree because I think relationships are what take you far. You know, they're the ones that are gonna be able to help you, and that's why Michigan Tribe has been so successful is because we're all there to help each other, yeah, yeah, become successful, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

And you can you can call us too to just ask for general guidance, which I think is something you're really good at, Devin. So you do consulting as well for companies and organizations. So there are people who actually hire you who who you know need guidance to start their business up or navigate some things. But I think the other thing that you do is you're always willing to lend knowledge, whether it's through speaking or through coffee or through anything like that, you're willing to lend knowledge. Like here's what I have learned. And a couple examples of this for me that I think about how we've talked is when you let go of the brick and mortar, you became a pop-up shop, you actually bought a downtown Jackson location. I did. Yeah, which is the office or Beach's office bar. Beach's office bar. Yes. Back when it was called that. Yeah, yeah. And the thing, like you, I've learned through you in our conversations like that how comfortable you are with real estate. It is not a discomfort for you anymore. Like, was that always the case? Because you leased, you rented in Lansing. Yes. How did that come? Was it the house? Like, what even lent itself to being so comfortable with, like, oh, I'll buy a downtown spot. Let's do this.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

That is such a good question. But I think it comes from what I had just gone through in my life personally. Yeah. And feeling like, what do I have to lose at this point? Because I lost everything I, you know? Yeah. I felt like I was set back 10 years. So it was like, you know what, why not? But I do think it did help because I bought my first house when I was 23. And it was during like the Because you're a hero?

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Like she's like a young um, uh, what do you call them? I was mogul. Yeah. She's like You're a mogul. Mogul Devin Ruth. I was so good for you. 28. Okay. 29. Okay. Yeah. So that's really young.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

So 23 when you bought your house. I was trying to capitalize on the government's first-time home buyer incentive. You know, where you got money for that. Still exists. I know. I know. And the economy was so bad then, you know, too. And so it was a buyer's market. What year was that? Was that in 2008? Yes. And heading into 2009. So it was like I just graduated, you know, from college. And um, but my parents are the ones that were like, you're gonna spend just as much in rent money here in East Lansing as you are as you would in a mortgage right now, because it's a buyer's market. They have this incentive through the government, like you should really do this. And being 23, it kind of scared me because I'm like, I own it. The rule I owned it. And I felt stuck because the rule was then for the first-time home buyer's incentive, you had to live in the home for at least three years. And back then, three years sounded so long. So long.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

23 to 26. Are you kidding me? I'm pretty sure I quit everything and moved across the country like three times. You did. And then I think I packed a backpack and traveled the world as well. Yes. 23 to 26, not a commitment I was making. Yeah. You had much more to listen than I did.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

That's crazy. Yeah, you're so adult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

It was scary, but I was like, and I'm and it felt long, but it went by quicker than I thought. And then I knew, like, okay, I can do this. And then it's like again, I started getting the mindset of if I need to, like, what's the worst that'll happen? You know, what's gonna happen? You know, if I do need to get out of this, I can sell it. Like it's gonna be okay, you know, and kind of training my brain to to go there and stuff. And so back to your question with the building, yeah. That and then selling that home, moving across the room.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

When you moved back and bought, were prices great then? Was it a little more risky? Like, what was the market like when it came to real estate when you purchased the building?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Um, no, that was 2019, so everything was kind of pricey.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Yeah, I was gonna say that there's like 2008 home buyership, two nine 2019 actual downtown location buyership. Those are two different decisions. Big time.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah. And I at this point too, because I did the cross-country move, I had left my job at the college, I had closed up the brick and mortar location, you know, and no home, no income coming in at this point. Moved across the country. So when I came back, I literally had the money that I told recovered from my house sale, like closing in my house and east landing. Wow, Hazlet. And I ended up using that money to buy the building. And so I was again back in a place where I felt like I have this much left, but it's worth the rest for me. And I made it through before, you know. And I always think about that moment at the store, like I can do it again. I'm gonna find a way. I will always find a way. Yeah, even if it means like this might have to be put on hold for here, I will find a way, you know. And luckily, too, uh, the building wasn't listed, so that worked out well is it wasn't on the market, and I had um tracked down the owner through a local realtor.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Okay. Like you knew the spot you wanted. Yes. Is that what it was?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Okay, I was interested specifically in that location because I just moved back, but coming back home for holidays and stuff. Um, I had known that that building had not been open, you know, for a couple of years now at this point. And I just casually said, Hey, what's up with the office bar? Like, what's going on with that? To the realtor. And she was like, you know, I don't know, but let me find out who owns it. And it had to be a woman, it happened to be a woman that worked for consumers at the time here in town, and she's wonderful, wonderful. Her name's Angela.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

And I know Angela at Consumers.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Yes, what up, girl?

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Is it the one Angela at Consumers? It's gotta be her.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

I already know. And she uh was really cool. She earned my respect immediately because when the realtor reached out to her on my behalf, she told the realtor, I don't work with realtors. If this person's serious, they can get in touch with me. And so of course I did because at this point of my life, okay. I'm like, what do I have to lose?

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Like my kind of girl.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

All right, exactly. So I reached out and I think she was kind of like, whoa, okay, like it's a little like this.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

She doesn't need to reach out. She doesn't understand. And so, next thing you know, like she ends up selling me the building as is. And that helped, you know, too, and stuff because she was ready to kind of move on. And and we did a land contract and um started chipping away and cleaning out the inside and this and that. And I did have plans at the time, I think you girls remember because it was right when I met you of like trying to do an apartment, yeah, shop, or like in the back, and like make that my house, I didn't have a house. I had to move in with my parents when I first moved back. Like when I'm talking reset, you guys sent me back 10 years like it did. Yeah. Um, and so and it was devastating. And so I was just trying to to come back fast. And yeah, so ended up closing on that building actually four weeks after moving back to Michigan because, you know, yeah, gas down full steam ahead. And um, yeah, long story short, throughout the building process, um had to get everything up to code and this and that, and ended up finding out it was gonna be a lot more expensive than what I could afford. But luckily, another local realtor came in and he wanted to buy the building. And kind of like what happened with Angela, he just found my contact info and reached out one day, and it was it was a blessing, truly.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

But you're making it sound like it was just like uh you're realizing it's too expensive, and this person sweeps in. And that wasn't the case. So you're realizing it's going to be more expensive, and you actually kind of doubled down. Yeah. And this person came in and made an offer, and you were like, No, I've got plans. You're right. That happened a couple of times. So, like, yeah, what made you say yes eventually? Was the number just right? Was the job too big? Like, what finally made you say yes? Because you were not just like, oh yeah, it's your problem now. That wasn't at all how that went.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah. I knew I had to separate emotion from this. And that goes back kind of to your original question, too, of what was something that you learned or was maybe hard for you. And one of the best skills I picked out from launching my businesses is you have to be able to separate emotion from business transactions. And at this point, I knew like I was I was kind of in a jam, and um, but he also felt right, like what he wanted to do with it. He had asked to use my blueprints and this and that, and kind of when he developed the space, he used his, he used the architectural drawings I had. And so that was like special, and it just felt right. I I don't know if that makes sense, but working with him and speaking to him, it felt right. And then he also wanted to do a land contract, and that made me feel comfortable too, because there was a chance that I could get the building back if it didn't work out with a land contract. Um, but in the grand scheme, it was coming down to separating my emotion from it, and it wasn't. That point, especially when I got the number back from the engineer for the building, and like I just knew, and I was devastated because that was the thing when I first moved back that I was like holding on to so tight, and I didn't want to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

It was like the answer to your problems kind of emotionally.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Yeah, I get that. I was I just felt I mean, I remember crying over it, thinking like I can't lose an it felt it was starting to feel like a loss, but then I had to check myself and be like, nope, this is actually a really good business move. And it was. And once I did that, that's when I was able to move forward with him. It felt good. He wanted to use my drawings, like you know, he seemed great, and um and I knew that it was it was best to set me up for my next move.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

So there's two things in that that I hear, and I'm just curious if you can maybe expand on a little bit more. The first one is less me selfishly needing the answer to the question. So the the and then the second one is me selfishly needing the answer to the question. So um the the first one is the the pivot thing. You Alex talked so much about pivoting, and I actually I I've been thinking about this because when Michigan Tribe first started, we actually had another crew of leaders and they had a plan. They had a plan for the organization, and just something else was emerging. And for for me, especially, because Alex wasn't even officially a leader yet, and then you became a leader and you kind of like agreed with it. But it was like it feels like we're rolling this way. Like if this one feels I don't want to say easier because it's not been easy, but it feels simpler, it feels right, things like that. And so we we separated in leadership from the the original crew because they were so set on it turning out the way they visioned it. And so it's just like it's not just pivoting when finances aren't great. No, it's like a willingness to pivot when an opportunity arises that is better suited to the business. I'm just like, I don't even know what I need to expand on that, but like I feel like I learned that from your sharing.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Like, yes, absolutely. Yeah, a thousand percent and being okay with that. And that's how you survive in business. Yes. You have to be able to pivot, be flexible, roll with the punches. I mean, during COVID, when I couldn't do my pop-up shops and everything was shut down, I ended up doing online shopping appointments where people could book a Zoom call with me.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

And a one-on-one.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

And one-on-ones, yes, and you know, you have to be able to pivot. Would I have wanted or felt like offering that before? Probably not, you know, but guess what? Pivot, baby, let's go. And also during that time, that's when I started doing freehand delivery for all of Jackson County. Yeah. Something I still do to this day. Like good things can come from pivoting or having to pivot, you know, all of that. It doesn't necessarily mean bad things.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

So I'm curious because you go through this personal upheaval, you know, move across the country, then you move home. You've left everything in Lansing, you buy this building, it's not working out, you sell it. How are you feeling at this point? Because some people would be like, I'm just gonna go into a depressed hole and never come out. Me.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

You guys are a different breed, but me went into the depressed hole just listening to that.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

But I am always just in awe of people who are so resilient no matter what happens, and they keep pushing forward. Yeah. What kept pushing you forward? Because that's one like shit sandwich after another. Like you're just like, what the?

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah, you know. It was absolutely devastating and hard. And I'm not gonna sugarcoat that at all. I mean, I had terrible, rough days. I mean, it rocked me so hard. I didn't even feel like myself anymore. But I also knew I had an opportunity to use that to like fuel me as fire. And so I allowed myself like, did you know that right away, or did you not know that until later?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

I had now like now looking back, are you like, oh, I used that for fuel, or in it were you like, I need to use this for fuel.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

When I was in it for fuel?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Okay, wow.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Definitely now stronger than me. Yeah, you were stronger than me.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

You're amazing.

unknown 26:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

I would have gone nuts, you know. Like I would have, I mean, it was so bad, you know, and I did, but I also allowed myself the time to grieve in the way that I needed to, and I had a really, really good support system. Yeah. And the people that I did meet, like you girls, you know, it was Yeah, we did meet her when she was literally in this in this.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah. And and it was um, and I hold myself off. Like, I met you girls coming out of it because I had moved back in the fall and I met you kind of in the spring when the lane rack had first opened. Insane.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

We were going through like the same thing. We had both both gone through breakups. Yours was the breakup of a possible marriage, you were engaged. Mine was a marriage. Like we both were going through huge, huge personal shifts. Now, I just want to point out though, like I said before, I would go into a deep dark hole. I closed my, I was like, Yeah, half this noise. Like, I can't even think about that. And you literally were like, let's just think about it differently.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Which you are so good at doing, and that's what I'm trying to get at. Like, I think more people could learn from that. Like, how did you do that? How did you do that?

SPEAKER_01 27:09

It's probably really hard question question to answer, but I mean, literally channeling my anger and rage into my business. That's the only thing. Is when I was in those moments. Now, when I had days where I needed to just cry and like feel, I would do that and I'd let that happen. I'd let myself have that time. But when I was feeling angry and like, yeah, I mean, because when when something major like that happens to me personally, it just lights a fire. Like, I mean, like, see your face everyone. Okay, okay, let's go, you know, and this isn't gonna be the end of me. Like, go on, do that. Yeah, I'm good and just watch, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

I've gotten better at that as I've gotten older. When I was young, though, I wouldn't say I would say it destroyed me more when I was younger, and now it makes me go because there's just so many experiences for me to look back on and see I could get through it. Yeah, it's just like literally, my life's not gonna end tomorrow. Like, I'm good, it's just gonna be a rough season. Like it's easier to do that with experience.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Yes. And I think the other big thing at the time that I do not take for granted again is being at my parents' house. When I first came back, I was so embarrassed, I was mortified. I was like, I'm such a loser. I have to move back in. You know, I'm 32. My sister, at least you had pants.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

You know, I'm like Alex make me dinner or Mark make me dinner.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

But after being like the type where it's like this goal than this, and my career, and climb, climb, climb, climb, climb, and wanting to do this and be at this level by 27 and da da da to be set back, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like I fell down the ladder, yeah. Like you fell down the ladder. Yeah, you literally um it if I did not have, you know, them and to move into, and that also felt like a safe space. And I'm not saying that casually, I feel like maybe that word gets tossed around a lot. I mean, it was truly I hold myself up in my parents' house. The only people I saw really were like their friends, and like, you know, and like um two friends that I I kind of grew up with before I met you girls, you know, but I really did not interact with, I didn't really go out. I literally poured everything into my business and took the time I needed to heal, and I was able to do that there, you know, and I felt safe and and all of that. And I was still trying to wrap my head because I don't want to like not share this part either. Mentally, my brain was so confused because we were four months away from the wedding. So my brain was still on this trajectory of this was happening, and now it was like, I mean, I would wake up in the middle of the night and be like, where, you know, confused because my brain still thought I was Who's here? What happened? Yeah, why am I here, you know, and all of that. And so it took time. And I don't want to make it sound like it was easy peasy and I came back, but those moments when I was feeling angry, frustrated, or all those heavy, heavy emotions, I would use it to do something for my business. And that was one of the most like valuable things too, because when it comes to business and having good days and bad days or prioritizing workloads or time, like life is gonna happen. And if you're the type that is waiting for everything to go perfect or be okay personally, professionally, you are never ever, ever gonna survive in a leadership position or as a business owner because that's not the way life goes. Yeah, you have to learn how to work through those moments and push through. And going through that really taught me how to do it and seeing it this way. Now I didn't feel that then. I just knew survive, survive, find a way, find a way, find a way. It was like build that next step. Yeah, you know, but looking back now, I'm like, dang, it really armed me with tools that I use to this day of running my business, being a leader, taking a beat from, you know, if I'm feeling emotional about something, not responding right away, holding back, being in control of my emotions when I have to show up. Because that was really hard then. Yeah. It's like nasty, you know, like emotional intelligence, knowing where to show them when not to, and all that.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Yeah. But that is my selfish question, okay? So, my selfish question is like the farther I go in my career and the better I get at controlling my emotions, which right now I don't feel like I'm at my best of controlling my emotions at work, but such is the nature of having a three-year-old who screams on his way to school every morning. But um, but I the response from people when you're that controlled, yeah, is not people don't take that positively. Like they don't, they don't look at that and go like, oh, she's controlling her emotions, or at least my experience of it is not. My experience is that people oftentimes it actually kind of fuels their fire that I'm not emo like it almost makes it seem like they think I'm cold or inhumane or things like that. When in reality, this is a skill set I've developed over time to be able to hold my emotions and respond respectfully and make decisions that aren't just emotional, because that's best for an organization. You know, like the response isn't necessarily respect when you learn how to do that. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah, that's interesting you've had that experience because you ask me to choose someone when we're talking about networks again, yeah, a wild card who's gonna pop off over this thing, be the loudest in the damn room, banging on tables, raising their voice, loud, loud, loud, rah, rah, rah, rah, versus someone in control. Yeah, someone responding respectfully, having candor, which is rare for leaders to have.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Candor is being able to tell the truth and deliver it in a kind way, in a calm way. I would choose the candor person over the wild person.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Or the ability to face conflict and hold respect in the conversation and not just.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yeah, and so that's awful that you've had that kind of reaction.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

So I think though that has a lot to do with where you work and the people that you're working with. Um, and I do think that when it comes to when you're looking at because we're we're artistic, creative people in what we do, but we're also business people. I think when you're dealing in the creative, artistic people that don't have that business side, that can get real, yeah, real dangerous a little bit. You know, emotions and can take can take point and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

You guys are giving me hope that it was just a unique experience and that there is there's light at the end of the tunnel. Yes, there is.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Well, also, too, you may be dealing with a group that's used to getting their way a lot. And when someone are you trying, are you trying to take me to turn it?

SPEAKER_02 33:22

We're turning the table, Amanda. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

No, I think you're absolutely right. Because I was gonna say, when you are in control like that, yeah, it is the biggest power move that you can have. And people don't like that. Yeah. People that are used to getting their way. Yeah. If they see a calm person that's level-headed making sense, genuinely with your heart wanting to do the right thing, and you're staying like this despite all these things they're throwing at you, it's gonna make them more mad.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Oh, so absolutely, you know, and so like fire them up, you know? Yes, yeah, fire them to the extreme.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yes, yes, yeah. So, and the fact that you're still maintaining this is so impressive, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

I would say I was maintaining this for like a few years, and I'm like, Yes, I agree. It's so accurate. Yeah, yeah. I used to be okay, but now I'm like, okay, maybe I'm crazy. But but I also want to say, and going back to the being able to manage grief and manage your emotions through it and show up anyways. I mean, you recently experienced a miscarriage. You're pregnant now, and baby is healthy and you are healthy, and those are glorious and amazing things. Yes, pregnancy journeys are all over the place for people. And when you're a woman, first and foremost, anything about pregnancy, you're already all over the place. Yes. Infertility is very real, miscarriages are very real, all those things, but you're a multi-business owner. Yeah, yeah. Navigating moments like that. So not only did you go through a big grief and a big breakup that was four months away from a wedding, but very recently there was grief in your life. That how does that look from you on a very practical level? So I don't want to ignore the emotions behind it, but on a very practical owner, do you pause business for a week and say, I'm not available? Like, what do you do to get through and acknowledge and honor what you're going through as a woman, as a person, as a parent? Like, what do you how do you navigate that?

SPEAKER_01 35:14

That is such a great question. And the thing that I found that works the best is kind of placing things in buckets because I'm not able to pause your right, you know, being a business owner, it's like I couldn't just walk away. However, when you go through something like that, you learn what really needs your attention and what can wait. You know, and it kind of retrains even clients or people with boundaries and stuff like Alex and I yeah, we we talk about a lot, you know, is it kind of resets you in a way where it's like this is not important, this can wait. Um, whereas a lot of times I catch myself grinding, grinding, grinding, grinding. Um, but every time something bad has happened to answer your question like that, I don't let it wait. I prioritize things in buckets. What absolutely needs my attention? What can wait and what I can do to help myself get through this now.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

I get through it. So during that time with a miscarriage, I did take a week where I was responding to email, but I was kind of like, anything that can wait, it's gonna wait.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

This is the only thing that matters right now.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

So like laying in bed responding to emails, or like getting up, going to work, doing what you had. Like, what did that very really look like?

SPEAKER_01 36:16

I had to get up and do it, but again, that's just me. Yeah. Because when I go through these things, I I can't sit. Like I It's like you have to have something to focus on. Yes. And, you know, and I'm busy and I I was doing like multiple loads of laundry, and you know, I I I had to because that's how I cope. Now that's not for everybody, you know. But one thing across the board I would say is use those buckets, you know, because once again, once you come out of it, you're gonna also realize everything's not a fire, everything's not a board, you know, and it helps you, you know, in the long run. So it does help you. Take your time, let yourself heal, yeah, find those buckets, you know, things can work.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Do you delegate more too? Because I mean, the reality of your marketing business is that you have many consultants that serve and support what makes one marketing project possible. So are you, you know, consultants and and contractors and and things like that are very different from having this full-time team that you can lean on. So, what does that kind of look like as far as delegation goes during moments? It might even just be like you feel like going with Eric to something he has to do for the next week, right? So, like, because you're also great at that. So, you know, what does delegation look like during that those moments?

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Yeah. Well, luckily the team is already set up that way because having worked at a PR agency, you know, when I was working full-time after college, um, I learned how to assign different contractors to client accounts and build a team out. So there's typically never just one person working on any account at a time at Epic Blue. You have multiple people, and that is kind of our selling point for the business, too, is like if you go down, your project keeps moving. It does. Yeah. And that's across the board with anyone, you know. So we do have different account leads, and yes, they are contractors, but essentially working the majority of them, all except for one, is pretty much full-time, you know, with Epic Blue. But um, yeah, so you get a team of us, and we're there with you, kind of like your own personal marketing team as a small business. And so that helps in situations like this. So building things and scaling in a way that allows you to have those moments as a leader or business owner and communicating with your team. Um, I I never have standing meetings with my epic blue contractors. I don't because I am not gonna drain my employees' batteries over a standing meeting that doesn't necessarily need to happen when they could be using that juice and energy on client accounts or other things. Now we still have meetings, but they're just not standing ones. They're meetings that need to happen when it needs to happen. Amen. And so if there is a situation that comes up like this, I you know, I communicate to the team, this is what's going on, they all are ready, you know, because I'm already, again, in advance, not sucking energy, wasting time, you know, everyone is set up for success, all of us as a team, and vice versa. If any of you know my epic blue team needs time or anything like that, they communicate and we are all hands on deck, ready to jump in. We're small, but we're ready to rock, you know. And like I'm very lucky to have that. Yeah, small but mighty. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Are you talking about Paw Patrol?

SPEAKER_02 39:15

I'm talking about I'm talking about Devin's Mighty Business Plus Pop Patrol. Um, I do have a question that I I haven't asked any other guest, but I want to ask you. Um, to me, it's apparent that most successful entrepreneurs started in a job. Yes, they learned skills in a job before they started their business. And I can think of all the guests that we've had on here, and all of them have been like that.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Why? I mean, I know why it's important, but I think a lot of times we get some entrepreneurs that don't want to do the nine to five, don't want to go work for somebody else, just want to be, you know, doing their own thing independently.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yeah. Well, and they also the reason they want to be an entrepreneur is because they think it gets them away from that.

SPEAKER_02 39:54

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then they find that it's not like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Then actually, you're going right back in it.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Yeah. I I don't really know what the question is here. I guess I just want to know your perspective. Would you have gone back and done it differently? Or do you feel like working at LCC and some of the other places that you worked really propped you up to be? Because you're you've already referenced it once. Like I learned how to do that at the PR agency. That's how we put a team together. And I can say that about many things of my jobs and how they transferred to the next job that I had or whatever. So I'm just curious, like, would you have gone and done it differently? Or do you think that's the perfect way to do it?

SPEAKER_01 40:26

No chance. I would have done it like that. Because you can have, you know, if you look at a goal sheet or think about that, you can have two tracks going at once, you know, and that's what I did. Like over here, it's like, okay, I need the full-time job, so I can pay this, do that, da-da-da-da-da. But I'm not losing sight of wanting to someday own my own business, you know. And it was actually in having one of those jobs when I traveled to New York that made me want to start Bel Row. Back to your original question that I didn't answer. I'm sorry. Like, you know, and walking through the the little boutiques in Soho and things like that. Oh, that's that's what made you want to do it. And seeing these curated clothes from all over in these shops, you know, and some of these boutiques were the size of closets, but they were trying. And I'm like, what a great idea. Yeah. You know, curating clothes from all different vendors and designers and bringing them into one spot. Like, I want to try that, you know. And so I guess cannot get a mushroom dress. Mushroom dress is my fave. I can't find, yeah. We all should have worn some. Oh my gosh, I didn't even think about it. Actually, no, I don't.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Sometimes we all walk in and we're all wearing.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yeah, I know. Exactly. Exactly. And so if I had not been working that job, I wouldn't have gone there. You just never know what's gonna happen. But the point of that is I wouldn't know, no, I would not, because I needed to learn all those things. When I worked at the tanning salon, I learned the opening day procedures and the closing day procedures, which I use for my brick and mortar for Belro for my girls and balancing the cash drawer and where to drop the money. I mean, I learned what to do if someone comes in and like, you know, you need to call the police, or there's a, you know, I learned all of this from working at other jobs. Right. And yeah, so it's critical.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

So the last question I have for you then is because your your story, abruptly, you were like, okay, we're moving to where'd you move? Boston or yeah. So like you're like, okay, I'll answer for you. You know, I know the story pretty well. We're selling this, I'm leaving my job. If that never would have happened, how do you think you'd still be at LCC? Like, what do you think? Where do you think you'd be now if that never happened? If you were never forced to do that, it's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

And I was comfortable there. So part of me, I think, wants to say yes. Really? I was comfortable, and that's why, too, you guys like that's such a good point. Being comfortable. When things happen in your life, you have an opportunity to wallow or be like, I am gonna grab this, I'm gonna figure out a way, you know. And now it's like, thank God that happened. Yeah, right. Because I am so happy. I have my businesses, I'm back in my hometown. I mean, it couldn't have worked out better, and I was comfortable. Yeah, why would I have left before?

SPEAKER_02 43:04

You know, and it's right back to our first guest, Tanya, talking about the contentment of being in a nine to five and nothing.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Like you have to have your strategy out. You did. And you're reminding me of, I've actually been thinking a lot about this. There is a rule in improv. Do you remember when I made you read that Tina Faye book? That was such a good book. And she talks about the rules of improv. It might even be called something like that. Is it bossy pants? Yeah. Yeah. I think it is. Um, but one of the rules of improv is always respond with yes. So the example they give is when you're on stage in an improv scene. Let's say someone's like, I am sitting on a chair right now. And if I'm on the scene in the scene with you and I go, no, you're not. That doesn't move the scene forward. So you have to go, oh my gosh, like that chair also looks like a crocodile who's eating you. It moves this, it moves the scene forward.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

And I think about that a lot because she used it in the book to give an example of how much that helped in her life to always say yes to whatever comes her way. That doesn't mean, you know, like literally always say yes. Like if a dude is walking behind you and like gropes you, you're not like, yeah, that feels good. But I, but you know, when life throws curveballs your way, if you look at it and say no, it does stop the scene. Whereas you, if you and it doesn't mean you have to say yes right away, but if you look at it and go, okay, if this is what my scene partner brought up, what could I say yes about? How could I progress this scene? And I feel like that impact me, impacted me so much after a life transition like that. Yes. To be like, I need to grieve, and like your, you know, your grief was four months and then you bought a building. I think my grief was like four and a half years, where I was like, I'm depressed now and I don't pay bills, just so you know. But you know, I'll idea bills, Alex, please. And so um, you know, whatever you know, your grief time looks timeline looks like, like you can keep saying no. Yeah, you can choose that. Yeah. If you were to say yes and and add something to the scene, what might that be? And that has impacted me so much. So true. Think about I'm not an actress, clearly. But I just mean that improv rule I think is so relevant to life and and the curveballs that come with entrepreneurship. It so is, and I love that.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

And I'm glad you said that too, because in those moments when you're not feeling comfortable and you say yes, like in the improv moments, and yeah, your body now and your mind naturally remembers and it's gonna help you. So when you do face these decisions down the road, or if something else happens, you're training and rewiring things to help you get.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

I can be comfortable in uncomfortable things.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Yeah, that's a cult lesson.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Okay, okay, cult lesson. So I guess the moral of the story is when your life is up in flames, it's probably a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Or, you know, like call firefighters. You can live at your house for a minute while you It's really good.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

It's really, really good. That's also a cult thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

That's a cult thing. This is great. This is great. Everything is great. This has been a fantastic conversation. It's a legitimate exact conversation, but we would have had a hot tub and up. It is thinking the same thing. It would go on for four more hours, but we don't have that kind of we have to wrap this up. We'll go to the hot tub after. But thank you so much, Devin, for coming and hanging with us. I do want to do a shout-out to your own podcast, Hour of Happy, where people can get wherever they get their podcasts. Um, and we appreciate anyone who listens to Michigan Tribe and the guests we get to hang with are legitimate friends, and we're so grateful for your friendship. And I'm so grateful too.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Thank you, girls so much for having. It's been awesome. Thanks for coming.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Yes. All right, everybody, you know what to do. Download wherever you get your podcast, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube. If you want to see us, YouTube. All right. So you can get the next episode when it comes out. Bye. Bye. Talk to me.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Okay.