Style, Confidence & Showing Up as You | Liz on Personal Style, Career Confidence & Dressing with Purpose

What you wear can shape far more than your outfit for the day, it can influence your confidence, your mindset, and how you show up in work and life.

In this episode of the Built By Her Podcast, Georgie sits down with Liz from i-personal Styling to talk about personal style, the emotional connection we have with our wardrobes, and why getting dressed is about so much more than clothes.

Liz shares how she built her styling business after a successful corporate career in marketing, and how dressing for the role she wanted helped her grow in confidence and work her way up to marketing director. Together, Georgie and Liz explore the realities so many women face when it comes to their wardrobes from overflowing rails and decision fatigue to body changes, confidence dips, and feeling disconnected from your style.

This episode is a really honest and practical conversation about how style can support ambition, self-worth, and the way we move through the world.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Why so many women struggle with what to wear every morning
• The link between clothing, confidence and performance
• Dressing for the role you want
• How personal style impacts how you show up in business
• The difference between fashion trends and true style
• Finding your style personality and dressing in a way that feels like you
• How body changes, motherhood, age and life transitions affect what we wear
• Why wardrobe overwhelm often has more to do with identity than clothes
• The mindset shift from corporate life to running your own business
• Liz’s advice for women who want to feel more confident in what they wear

About Liz:
Liz is the founder of i-personal Styling, where she helps men and women feel more confident in what they wear by understanding their colours, body shape, style personality and wardrobe choices. Her work is about much more than fashion, it’s about helping people dress in a way that reflects who they are and supports where they want to go.

Listen if:
This episode is for you if you’ve ever stood in front of a full wardrobe and felt like you had nothing to wear, if you’re moving through a new season of life or business, or if you want to feel more confident, polished and like yourself again.

Connect with Liz:
Website: i-personalstyling.co.uk

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🎙️ Hosted by Georgina McDonald founder of G R Design Studio

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🎧 Produced by Richard Lannen at Nozzle Media
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So today we are sat with Liz from iPersonal Styling. And we're talking about something that may feel a bit like every morning you wake up and what do I wear? And it's probably an issue that I would say 99% of women face every day. I definitely do. So before we kick things off, I'd just like to introduce Liz. Yeah, hello. It's lovely to be here. Thanks, Georgie. Thanks for coming. This actually really super excites me because every single morning I'm like, what the hell am I going to wear today? And I go through my wardrobe and I still actually come out with not a lot of the same item of clothing.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

So there was some research done, interestingly, by Marks and Spencer's a few years ago, and they determined that uh the average woman in the UK spends 17 minutes every morning choosing what to wear. So that means there's a lot of women out there spending longer than 17 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

I'm probably yeah, longer. Yeah. Sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Yeah, that's not good, is it?

SPEAKER_02 0:54

So that's like an I worked it out, it's an hour and a quarter a week. Yeah, it's a lot. It is.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I'm probably I probably roughly depending on the day, about 30 minutes, I reckon. But that's mainly because I have so many clothes that I I put it all out and then I have to put it back again and then go back to where I started. And I think, oh, it's just wear what I wear every single day.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

It's not unusual at all. Most women say to me that they've got too many clothes in their wardrobe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got about three level wardrobes.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yeah. Yeah, women say I've got a problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

And uh what proportion do you wear of those?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

I would say about a drawer. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, not not good.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

I think most people wear about 30% of the 40% of the wardrobe.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I have stuff in there that is probably about 10 years old that I really liked at that time, and I think I will one day wear that again. And I haven't.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

No. Ever. I've got a really simple tip for that, which is to um almost like you were dressing a room somehow. So you're doing a bit of interior design, dressing a room, um, style it, put it on hangers, somewhere nice, nice backdrop, take a really nice picture of it. Then you will never forget it. You'll always always be able to look at it like you look at it in your wardrobe, and then either sell it or donate it to a child shop. Oh and then and then you've still got it, you've still got the memory, you've still got the that was it. The chances are you'll never regret letting go of it, but then you can let go of it and you'll have all this lovely space in your wardrobe.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I need space, mine is overflowing. Anyway, I would like to just introduce your business and what you do. Obviously, I've just given a bit of it away, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

So I I I basically uh offer styling services to men and women, um, and um that that can be anything, really, depending on their brief and what they want to achieve, but it can be um anything from trying to establish what colours make them look the most radiant through to what styles of clothes best flatter their body shape, through to really just um coming back to your overfull wardrobe and building a consistent style in what they've got in there because sometimes we we get attracted by marketing from retailers or we end up buying stuff on the moment, and then we have a like a myriad of styles, and then those styles on the edges of what we truly are, we don't tend to wear because they don't quite fit in the middle, and so um I work with women to establish what that core style is, and then you'll find that you don't need to buy anymore once you've you've hit that and be confident in it as well because um our own style is so valuable to us in achieving whatever we want to that um it's really important we do that, so yeah, yeah, that's what I do.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

And how did you get into it?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Well, I've loved clothes since I was sort of I don't know, 13, 14. Um, I had a paper round, that was my first job, and I spent all everything I earned on Vogue, clothes, vintage clothes, anything. Um, and so I used to make all my own clothes. Yeah, I would copy designer um uh patterns and just yeah, I just I mean, my first day at college, I turned up in what looked like a Chanel suit when everybody was in jeans and jumpers, and people said, What are you doing? I said, Yeah, but this is me, and I've got to turn up as me, really. So yeah, I've always loved clothes, and people then always asked me to help them sort stuff out. So I've always done it, um, but I ignored the sort of um the feelings of wanting to do that and thought, oh no, this maybe this isn't a proper job, and I went into marketing instead.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Did you find though, even though you're in marketing that clothes were still influencing your everyday?

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Um, so uh I wanted to get into marketing, but I failed all my exams at schools. I I was really bad. Um, so I went in as a secretary. So I got rejected for loads of sort of like um top brand jobs. I kept getting pushback saying you haven't got a degree, blah, blah, blah. So uh I thought, right, I'll retrain. I went in as a secretary and um I worked my way up, but at every stage I dressed in the role I wanted to be in, and that gave me the confidence. I knew I had the capability to do it, but it just gave me the confidence, and I just worked my way up from there.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Wow. So when you say you dress for the role you wanted to be, what like what how how do you do that and what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

So when I was a secretary, I dressed as a marketing assistant or executive. Um, so it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because what does a market what does a secretary look like? But there are cues in the what what you're wearing that that signal to somebody else that you've got certain skills, but more important to that, you're wearing clothes that say, I am capable of this, because believe it or not, clothes have meanings. We attribute them, we attribute certain clothes with certain activities or certain skill sets. So pre-COVID, you know, suits were the thing to wear to interviews, for example, or you would associate different jobs with different styles of clothes, sometimes for practical reasons. So, say people working in the building industry need to wear certain clothes because that's practical, people in healthcare need to wear certain clothes because that's practicality, but also you attribute certain outfits with certain jobs, and so I would think, well, what does a marketing ASAP, what does a marketing manager, what does a marketing director dress like? And I would dress like that. And and it was less about trying to convince somebody else I could do the job, and it was more about saying, Liz, you can do this, you can be, you can be that person. And and I actually became a marketing director within 10 years because I worked my way up, I got all my qualifications on the job, and then that was it, really.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

So wow, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

So I thought I'd use that experience as well as my love of clays, then to help other people.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

That's amazing. And when you like the bit where you said about when you go into different jobs and you have different looks, like obviously a doctor or a paramedic. Um I was actually talking to a friend about this, and um, she said that she's she's a paramedic, and she said when she puts on her uniform, it feels like a shield, like it's protection that she's going in for that job, that's her mindset, and it completely changes her attitude. Then when she takes it off, she's like, Oh, done now. So, yeah, like dressing for the job, even if you don't have a a uniform that is given to you, yeah, is obviously probably quite important.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

And and j yeah, and so I was reading something yesterday actually about um that really what you've just said is really important, is that once we leave work, sh changing into something else helps us to leave that behind. So, from a stress and a mental health point of view, it's really good. So, if we work from home and spend all day in leisure wear that we would ordinarily wear in the evening, how does that give you the opportunity to leave that work behind? Now, you might be mentally strong enough and be able to do that, but for a lot of people that's tricky.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

So to change your clothes at the end of the day is a good thing, I think.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I guess that line got very blurred though when everyone started working from home. So then people were like, actually, I don't need to put on my suit to go to the office. I can wear pajamas on the bottom half and interview suit on the top half. But what impact do you think that has on people and their jobs?

SPEAKER_02 8:11

So there's there there is research and recent research to suggest that the the clothes that you put put on, if you think you can so if it the clothes you put on um give you the confidence to think you can do that particular job or that particular task. Um and it there's um a theory called enclosed cognition, which is based on research by some guys called Adam and Golansky, and they basically showed through a variety of um pieces of research that if you give people certain clothes, they will perform differently in each of those tasks. So if you dress them in, say, uh a medical type task and you put them in medical type outfit, they're more likely to say, Yes, I can do that job. And the same is true of office work or any admin skills or so I do a lot of work with people going for interviews and they'll say to me, Oh, well, I I the interview's online, so I'll just wear something smart up top. And I say, No, don't actually put your what if you were meeting them face to face, put your interview shoes on, put your interview skirt or trousers on, and then think about the top, but then you will feel more confident in your ability in that interview situation. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. Yeah. So with that, obviously you're dressing for your job, but how do you then combine what you are comfortable in your personality with that?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Yeah, and personality is really important. So there's also evidence, I don't like to keep back in practice, but there's also evidence to suggest that if you dress in a way that suits your personality, you're more likely to perform better in that job. But that all just comes back to the fact that we should be doing jobs that make us happy are ones that suit our personality, aren't they? So if you're a creative, and creative means, I don't know, for example, wearing jeans and a you know, colourful top, then wear that because you're more likely to perform better. If um, if you in a if you say you're a creative but you go into a job that's quite um limited and and and requires you to wear a suit, well, the question is, are you going to be happy in that job anyway? So I think you should always dress as yourself and your own personality. It's where I I like wearing bright colours and jackets, for example. Um, and I've been in two jobs in my career where I was really uncomfortable and I probably didn't fit in because people weren't dressed in a similar way. Maybe they thought, oh, I don't want to fit in, but for whatever reason those jobs didn't work out. But I I I kept sticking to my personality because otherwise I wasn't being true to myself. So I think you should always dress as yourself. You need to look at the environment and the other people in there because you've got to communicate with them. But yeah, I'd always suggest dressing as yourself.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

So if someone came to you, um, where would you start?

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Would I would ask them what what they wanted to achieve. So so it's all about objectives. This is like anything in life, isn't it? What do you really want to achieve? Do you want to have some clients who say, Oh, I just want to feel a bit taller, or um, I'm not taken seriously enough, or um, I've lost a load of weight and now I don't quite know where to, you know, what do what do I use within my wardrobe? Um, so it's all about your objectives, really. Um I had a uh a guy as a client recently who really wanted to define his business brand through a set of clothing that he and his team were going to wear. So we established some colour, some looks from that, and then I found in various retailers.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Do you think that's important? So I met someone once and she only wears red, and she was like, red is my brand colour. I always wear red, and she was in the finance industry, and she said that everyone in that room wears black, so she wore red to see a stand out. Yeah, and then like I had a conversation with her, and she's like, I know red's a really hard colour, like it's like signifies danger and all of this. And I thought, yeah, but she did that, and she was like, It's not really her colour, but she wanted to stand out, and then it just became her personality, so everyone knew as a girl in red, and that's how she kind of defined her brand colour and and how she she dressed. But for someone in a business, do you think that's a really important thing to have? Like understanding what your personality looks like and how you dress and how that's represented.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, I do. I did have a client and she was changing all her brand colours. So she wanted to, she wanted me to do a colour profile session to see what made her look more radiant, and then she was going to choose a brand colour from that because she thought she might wear the odd blouse or something to go with it. I think, you know, having been in marketing, colour isn't as simple as just choosing one. So um uh I'm just trying to give you an example here. So, you know, if you if you've got a business brand that is about, so say you're in uh natural healthcare or something, you'd want to look for colours that um reflected, I don't know, calm, relaxation, you know. So you might not go for a big punchy red because that would increase the heart rate, wouldn't it? Yeah, exactly. And you might not go for black and white because that might be too clinical and too cold. So you might think about that, but if you're somebody that can't wear those well because they don't necessarily reflect well on your skin tone, I wouldn't say, well, you must wear those colours if they don't work, you know, you there's a more about harmony, isn't there, in the brand, really. So I think it's a I think it's I mean, colour is complex. Um, and when I work with clients, um, it's not just about what works well with their skin tone, there's a lot around the psychology behind that as well, because we grow up um with associations around colour. So, you know, um, but you know, my mum, my mum always told me that any prostitutes wore red. So for years I couldn't go near the colour because I thought that, you know, that that's what I shouldn't wear. And yet red works really well with me. So, but do you see what I mean? So we all were all told this, you know, brides wear white, don't we? Don't they? So white is one of those pure um expensive colours for for certain reasons. So um there's a lot of psychology behind colour. So, so in the colour profiling sessions I do, I talk a lot about what that person thinks about colour, where it fits into their lives. And you know, there might be a brilliant colour that works well on somebody, but if they won't wear it for certain reasons, then they shouldn't, should they? Because it won't make them feel good.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

No, and I think, like you said, colour can also be influenced by trends. I feel like at the at the moment, I go on I don't know, shopping platforms, and there's one colour that dominates, and then you end up buying a lot of that colour potentially, and then that colour changes, and then you go down that route. How how do you kind of navigate not being so influenced by the trends in the market, keeping to your own style and colour?

SPEAKER_02 15:11

And and do you do like a is it a capsule wardrobe where you have like a baseline and then you just pin stuff back in, or yeah, I I think the point about fashion and what we're sold is really important because and we should never beat ourselves up about this. So I hear, you know, I hear hear the phrase, oh god, I've just been really bad and I've bought X, Y, and Z. The thing is, these retailers have massive marketing budgets and it's in their interest to get you to buy, particularly fast fashion. I mean, stuff changes so quickly. Um, fashion was invented a couple of hundred years ago, didn't it? It came to the fore for the those with money. Um, I actually think fashion brings a lot of good, it brings a lot of artisan, it brings a lot of um, it brings a change, which is what we need, isn't it? It brings um fashion is a reflection on what's going on in society. There's loads and loads of good things about fashion where where it can be dangerous is that we um maybe those people on lower incomes particularly, but even myself, you know, are sucked into buying more. So coming back to your question, I think it's yes, most important is to understand what your style personality is. That's phrase I use. So, you know, to really determine what you feel most comfortable in, the style of clothes that that reflect you and who you are. Once you've done that, then um, so let's take myself for example. I describe myself as um quite a almost dramatic personality. So I like to wear bold colours, I like to be seen, um, I like to make a statement. I'm not shy of saying that. So you won't see you, I there's hardly any black in my wardrobe. Um, so I'm quite colourful. So um I could update that. So to keep it fresh, to feel like I'm treating myself just by looking at stuff, but I wouldn't go out and buy a whole chocolate brown set because that would then neutralize what I've already got. So if we establish the style personality to start with, you'll find that you can update it with the odd purchase, but without being sucked into buying a whole new wardrobe.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

How um how hard it is it to find your own style personality? Because I think personally I am probably very influenced by trends, what's in my wardrobe at the moment. Um when I see stuff, I think, oh, I do like that. Oh, should I buy it? Should I not? And I do that thing. If I go away and I I still think about it in like a day's time, I tend to go back and buy it, which isn't good because most of the time I don't but like how do you define that? Because personally, I don't think I actually know my style. I will very quickly shift from dresses to suit trousers to jeans to gym kit. Um and it's it's more about how I like if I can be bothered in the morning. Yeah. Um what I need to iron and don't iron, to be quite honest with you. Yeah. But how do you how do you start with that foundation? How do you work out where you sit in that?

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Well, the first thing I'd say, I think it's really important to value what your style personality is. Because once so if you almost I I ask clients to to look at themselves as if they were someone else. I quite often get clients to do this when they're looking at their shape. I get them, somebody say, get your partner to take a picture of you in a tight black outfit. I had a client recently who said started the session by saying, I just want to thank you, because she said, I've gone around in my head thinking I'm this certain shape that I don't like. She said, and I saw those pictures and thought, wow, what a cracking body you've got. And she and so she really appreciated it because she saw it from an independent perspective. So I think um the first thing is to value your own style. So see this. It's almost imagine you're a celebrity or a model or something else like that, and you're creating the, you know, you're you're defining your own personal brand. I know that sounds a bit corporate, but one of the easiest things, and I like doing with clients is either on Pinterest or you can do it with magazines. I love magazines because you can pick them up in your hands and you know do stuff. But cut out any picture, it's a bit like any piece of marketing activity, cut out any picture that you go, oh yes, that's me. That's me. And it could be anything. I mean, it could be a landscape, it could be an interior, but but clothes and just grab them all together, put them on a board, and you'll start to see a theme emerging as to what your star personality is. So, you know, there might be big, like for me, it would be trousers, big dramatic um jackets, colours, stuff like that. Um, somebody else that might be more classic lines, it might be, you know, those like neat silhouettes. Get all of those on it and then and then really determine if that's you. And if you say, yes, that's me, I that's it, then maybe look for um somebody in the public eye um who you might admire, you know, might want to look like, or is in that direction. So I can clearly tell you who mine is, you know, I know exactly who I want to look like, and I don't mind admitting that. Who is it? And then true, you wardrobe. I just think she's ace. So because she's bold and you know, she's always dressing up. That's me, you know, I can't hide from it. So, so so get somebody and then think, right, okay, what do they do that I could I might want to adapt my wardrobe to? And then start to sift out from your wardrobe what you what what doesn't fit into that. And you'll find this really easy when I work with clients. We you know, we start the session, and then I'm not saying I could sit down and do nothing, but they literally do the work for me because they go through and say, Well, I don't wear that, and I can see why, and I don't wear that, and I don't wear that. And by the end of it, you know, we've got three or four bags to give to a charity shop because because they got rid of stuff they don't wear, and they were just waiting for the almost permission to get rid of it. So that's a really easy one. I mean, there's lots of other techniques for determining your style, but that's a simple one, it's a visual one because I'm quite visual, but that's that's what I would do is collect all the looks that you like, and you'll soon see the theme.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I think I probably know what I like, but it doesn't ever suit me. Oh so I'm like, maybe I'm looking at the wrong people and they haven't got my body shape. Right, okay. So then I'm like, that looks fantastic. Yeah, I will buy that. This is what I do. I buy it, yeah. I put it on and I think, what happened? Why don't I look like that model? Why don't I look so different? And I I think that's also really hard is knowing if you don't know your body shape, which I guess is where the starting point is, to then be like, oh, these clothes are not fitting me right.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah, yeah. So so in terms of style personality, there'll there'll be um different shapes that can work with your body type. So if you're um, you know, if you're if say say you you you find um my sister, for example, is a very classic dresser, so she wears a lot of round necks, um, she wears a lot. Lot of neutral colours, um, but certain dress shapes, for example, wouldn't suit her. But that's not to say that wide leg trousers wouldn't. So and she'll still have a sort of a classic look to her. She's just got to find the right style of clothes that fit in with that.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Yeah. So once you found your style, what impact do you think that has on someone's actual confidence, personality? So you've got your outfit, you've got your colours right, you've got your style. Do you think that it has an impact in how they then approach the day?

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I yeah, I mean, absolutely. You I can see the shift in somebody's body. At the end of a session, I can see the shift in somebody's body posture, how they're talking to you, just their overall feeling. Yes. Straight. Yeah, yeah. And I do I do a day a month for smartworks who style women for interviews, and I only have an hour with them. I don't have five hours. And in that hour, I've got to quickly suss out what colours suit them, what shapes suit them, and what style of clothes. And then I've got to find that outfit from what we've got donated, and I've got to dress them. And 99 out of 100 women go out looking completely different. They're confident, they give you eye contact. And we have such a high success rate at interview. It's amazing. So I mean, there's there's the there's the proof, really, yeah. Is that it can shift your own confidence and your ability to do whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

So, in other words, it's incredibly important to get your wardrobe right.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

It is because it's about valuing yourself, isn't it? It is about self-value, which I think is really hard.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

And I mean, we're talking about body types and finding your colours, but also transitions. If you're transitioning through your years, going from being younger to changing into middle age, going from not being a mum to being a mum, that might change your style, and that does impact, but also, yeah, like I said, going into different jobs, you then have to maybe rethink what you're wearing. Um, there's a lot to consider when you wake up and you've got 17 minutes to find an outfit in your wardrobe. Yeah, or 30 in my case. So you started this business coming out of the corporate world. How have you found the shift from moving into that into your own business?

SPEAKER_02 24:20

Um, well, I feel really happy that it's mine and that it's all my responsibility. So I like that. I do love responsibility. I'm somebody that does that. Um, it's been a really interesting road so far because um there's no mass nobody's gonna write you a massive check for a budget, are they? So you've got to find that budget yourself to do your own marketing. That's quite an interesting dilemma. Um, it's been amazing the number of people I've met because a lot of it's about building your profile and building that trust amongst people. Um, I personally don't find it difficult to talk to people, so getting out and about isn't isn't a problem at all. I think the biggest surprise to me, ironically, was how much time you have to spend on marketing for a business that isn't readily understood. So if you set up a hairdressing salon, people can see it, they know what you do, it's easily understood. Styling is is you know a couple of steps away from that, and so building awareness and understanding what it is takes longer, and I probably didn't anticipate that.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Do you think it's because people see it as like a luxury item? Like from having this conversation with you, I can clearly see how fundamentally important it would be for me to come and have a session with you. However, I see it as a luxury, and I guess it's very similar for me with interior design. People don't see necessarily that why they need it. But has that been a struggle trying to persuade people actually the difference that it can make and the importance of getting it right can have on them, what they're doing, their business, their life?

SPEAKER_02 25:48

I think I think you're right. Yeah, I think people do see it as a luxury. Um, and yes, and maybe maybe there's a job to be done in the styling world about the the impact it can have on somebody's ambitions. I think that's a really good point to take away.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

I've used that in my mom too. I think with I think with styling though, it isn't just about understanding your colours, understanding your your shape. It could also maybe save you money on shopping if you've got an unhealthy shopping habit. Um, it could also reduce your 17 minutes in the morning, it could save you time, and you could then obviously go out and have a great day because you feel confident, but also it it could level up your career, your ambition. It there's a lot of things that come down to it. And I I personally, when I think of styling, I don't think that to me isn't the forefront of it. It's oh, someone's just dressing me. And I forget that there's a lot more to it, colour, shape, clothing. Um, so do you find like a lot of your clients already know that they need you or they don't know they need you? Yes. And they're having a moment like this where I'm sat here going, I need you. Is that what you normally find? You have to tell people why they need you. So it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

I would say nearly all of my clients have come to me because of a certain change in their life and then realize that they need to shift. So yeah, it is prompted by a change rather than um so for example, I guess most people don't get a nutritionist in, do they, unless they've got a health problem. And so this is probably similar to that. Um whereas if you're saying a celebrity, you would have a stylist, wouldn't you? Because you're looking to shape your position or and the direction you're going in. Um and I can think, you know, I can think of loads of celebrities that if you looked back at pictures that were taken 20 years ago, they look a very I mean, look at Nicole Kidman, for example. If you go back 20 or 30 years to how she was look dressing then and how she dresses now, actually the style's quite different. Somebody and she's briefed somebody to help her do that and to be seen as a certain personality, capable of whatever. Um, I mean, the fees for a stylist aren't that much. And I did a quick calculation last year that worked out that if you bought, I don't know, if you spent sort of like £40 a month on clothes, and that isn't difficult at all, is it? To spend £40 a month on that. That's like a jump off of MS. Yeah. Um, a stylist will say once you've paid that, you know, you'll have saved you'll got your return on investment within a year. So um I think there's a there's a job to be done around how stylists can help people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

That is amazing. What have you found there's been any hurdles that you weren't expecting when you started your business? Other than the marketing element, just the marketing, really.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Were you shocked by your clientele or anything?

SPEAKER_02 28:43

No, not at all. No, every client I've had has been delightful and all very different. Um I I you know, I've had some clients that said to me, before I've even started, you can say whatever you like about colours, but I am gonna wear black.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I've got a friend who does that. She's only got black in her wardrobe.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Uh I get a lot of and uh I do a lot of self-reflection because people say to me, Oh God, you're coming tonight. I better just check what I'm gonna wear. Well, I don't ever criticise anybody for what they wear, but I get a lot of that. Um no, not at all, really. I find it a real privilege to be let into people because because when you when you work with somebody's wardrobe, you're going into their bedroom quite often. So you're going into a you know a sensitive place, aren't you? But um, the trust I get, the openness, um, and then you know, you've got to do a lot of work in three hours, four hours. But my clients have been brilliant. Um, trusting, um, yeah, no, I've I've loved it. I haven't I haven't there'sn't been nothing yet.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

What sort of um demographic, like age sort of bracket are they falling into one bracket or is it so vast?

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Um I would say it's uh 40 years plus is is is the type of clients that have come to me to date. I think that's right. Yeah. Maybe a bit younger, so a couple in their 30s, but mainly 40 plus. But that could be because I'm networking in places where most of the people are that age.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I think um I I mean I obviously would like to do this, but I've got a lot of friends who are probably in the same boat and they have I mean early 30s. But again, it probably feels like it's something that's a bit out of reach for those. Oh, financially or not financially. I think when I think of size, I think of um like actors, artists, photo shoots, yeah, those sort of people. I don't think of oh, you can come into my wardrobe and have a look. You'd probably want three hours. And I'd probably actually say, actually, just I'm gonna sit back if you just carry on. That would be fantastic. Yeah. Um but I've got uh and a loads of friends who I think don't understand their personal style, don't understand what their colours are, don't understand their body shapes. Um, and I think as you transition out of your 20s into your 30s, your body changes so much, but also your personality changes. And I think there's a point where you hit 30 and you look back and like, oh, I'm not skinny anymore, I I can't fit into those. And you don't actually know like where you want to go with your style. Like you're kind of like, I don't know, sad about the body that you potentially used to have when you were 20, you're not having to worry about your skinny jeans, and now you're like, I cannot fit in that, and I don't look good in there. So I think there's probably a gap where it's needed, but people don't know they can do it.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

And but for women, that's that's the same, that's true for somebody in their 40s moving into their 50s as well, isn't it? And I have um I have I think I can think of nearly every client I've been to, their wardrobe has stuff in it from their 20s that they can't let go of because they don't want to let go of that person. Um but if you can't wear it anymore, it then harbours a lot of guilt, and that's not a good thing, is it? Because there's a lot of negativity in there. So yeah, I think you're right. Um just come back to the point that you you know it's about valuing yourself, isn't it? And looking at what you want to achieve in the future, because clothes can really help you, um, even just by giving you confidence, they can help you get there.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Are there any items that you would like suggest investing in?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

I mean, I really that there's the i i i uh personally I think it's an American um ism to talk about the capsule in a certain way, like white t-shirt, certain pair of jeans, certain blazer, blah blah blah. So if you if you read particularly um American styling books, that's what they revert back to. The thing is, if that's not your style personality, then it would be wrong to wear that. But if you took me, for example, if you said to me right, Liz, you have no clothes in your wardrobe and you can have, I don't know, 10 or 15 items, there would be certain items that I could mix and match. So there might be a very bright, bright blue blazer, for example, and then I've got to make a number of outfits with a number of other things. So a pair of wide-legg jeans, you know, a number of tops, and then, you know, you might say, Well, you've got a limit of 15 things, Liz. Okay. So I might then have a you know, a bright pair of very heavy earrings, a certain pair of boots. Do you see what I mean? So there would be core items, but they wouldn't be the same. So I wouldn't have a black blazer with gold buttons, but that might suit somebody who's a classic, who likes to dress more classically. I might have a bright blue velvet blazer. Do you see what I mean? So there are certain items that are going to work across the board. I mean, going on holiday is the best way to work out what your Invotacommas capsule is, because I find when people go on holiday, they always pack too much, don't they? In fact, I write a very good packing guide on my website. Um, but they always pack too much, they never wear most of it, and then they come back feeling guilty or think, why did I drag that all the way out there? So going on holiday is a really good way to think, right, what can I really make out of one jacket in a week, two dresses, you know, a pair of trousers and a t-shirt, blah, blah, blah. And then you could apply that same principle to your own wardrobe for every day.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

That's smart. I didn't think about that. When I when I go to pack my suitcase for holiday, I think like three times the amount of underwear that I possibly need. And then I go from then, if there's any room left, I back away. I always start. I don't know why. I feel like I need like three weeks worth of underwear.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

You don't go anywhere where you can get them washed.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

I mean, I'm only going away for a week to two weeks, a maximum. It's like a long weekend, like a week or I come back and I'm like, it's got double the washing. I don't know why I do that. It's very odd. Um anyway, moving on from that. Um so from your point of view and being a woman in business, have you ever have you felt it's different or not?

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Setting up my own business. Yeah. No, no, but then you know, I'm of an age where I worked um when the balance of men and women, particularly in offices, was a lot different. So um I've really learned if there was a lesson I took out of that was that how seriously you're taken can be influenced by what you wear. Um yeah, definitely. I would say it's less so now, but I still think women should think about how they dress and what impression that gives.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Oh, yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

I I re I there's days where you like going in for a talk or something like that. Like a networking event is a prime example. You tend to dress better to go to a networking event or somewhere where you're public than when you'll just go into the office. And I made this mistake actually the other day. It was a Friday. I was like, oh, I'm not seeing anyone today. I'll just put comfies on. Rookie error. I was in the office, and then someone came in for an interior design client, and they're like, Oh, can we introduce you? And I was so embarrassed because I was literally in like sweatpants gym kit. And it was that moment I was like, it is really important that every single day, even if I don't think I have something on that I look semi-presentable so that if the client comes in, I'm like, oh hello.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

But as much of that's about your own self-confidence, isn't it? More than anything else. Yeah. Do you think?

SPEAKER_00 36:35

I think so. I the first thing I said to them was, I'm so sorry, it's a Friday and I'm in like lounge clothes. Yeah. I like to apologise, I do not like this every single day. Yeah. Um, which was a bit rogue, but yeah, I and it's it's probably not the best foot to be kicking off a chat with. Yeah. Um but yeah, I was it was so embarrassing. Oh no, for next time. Friday is not a comfy day. You never know who's gonna walk in. No, it does make a huge difference, I think. Um if you had to give someone a bit of advice, what would it be? Uh advice. Around business, around dressing.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Would well, if you're gonna if you want to be happy in your job or your business, dress as dress as you. Don't try and be somebody you're not, um, because then you'll feel uncomfortable. Those minor cues will be given off. The potential client, whoever you're trying to persuade, will pick those cues up and that will have an impact. Because as humans, you know, subconsciously, we're picking up stuff all the time, aren't we? And tone of voice, eye, all those sorts of things. It doesn't matter how hard you're trying, if you're uncomfortable in your clothes for whatever reason, a bit like the dress down day on a Friday, that will come across, and then that person won't connect with you on the same level, or it'll take longer to build the relationship. So I'd say always dress as you, because then you're more likely to end up in a job that or a business that you're happy with.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Yeah, definitely. And what business advice would you give someone who's maybe looking to go into business, has just started out, or has actually been going for a very long time, and is there a nugget of information you could be like, Oh god, do that wise words from this. Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

I would say uh planning, planning. I mean, I'm a great planner anyway, but think about that. I mean, don't lose the enthusiasm for getting something going because that's you know, that's just gold, isn't it? So don't, but but you know, for example, um, I hear other stylists who are giving up part-time jobs or their old job, and they they think, oh, that's great, because I'll replace that salary within a year, but you need to work out where your leads are going to come in, you know, what's your funnel, how's that gonna work down through a customer journey, how are you gonna convert people? So, and and take it, sorry, lots of tips here, not just one. Take advice, take, take advice from experts. That's what I do. If if you know, we try and do everything ourselves, don't we? But you know, if you need a digital marketer, go and talk to one. But you know, that's got to come out of your cost to your business, but they will help you get to where you want to be, because you can't do it all on your own. You can't.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

No, and I learned very recently that you need to prioritize your time. So if you are incredibly good at styling people, that is where your time is to be spent because that's where as a business you make your money. The cost that that cost, the cost outgoing of that, yeah, and you then put that into maybe doing social media, which isn't your bag, actually does it outweigh because you could be paying someone half the amount of your cost to do your job and they do it ten times better, and it takes you five hours, it takes them an hour.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

So it's understanding the balance of do I need to do this because I'm better at it, or do I need to outsource it because I'm actually very good at it and I could save half the time and use the time I was allocating to that on something that I could actually make money from.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

Which is yeah, really hard.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

That means that's scary when you're setting up a business because that can be quite expensive, but yeah, but um and I hear a lot of men actually in networking say, Well, I really could do with somebody to sort out my admin because I'm overwhelmed with it, but I really don't want to spend X per hour. But of course, you're absolutely right. What they could earn in that time is is a much bigger multiple of it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Is there anything you've looked at your business and thought I need to have someone else?

SPEAKER_02 40:25

Yeah, so I've just had somebody look at my digital strategy because um there were bits of it that weren't working, so I've just employed somebody to do that, and it was great actually, because I felt like I was part of a team again, I wasn't on my own, yeah. So I was a bit reluctant because I thought this is you know, this is an investment for me, and actually I'm letting go, but I now feel like we're a team, which is also really nice.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

How do you find working on your own? I guess you speak to people probably all the time, so it doesn't feel like you're on your own all the time.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

No, and and I'm with clients, so no, um, I don't like I'm not somebody that likes to be on their own. Yeah, but um so yeah, no, I don't know. Yeah, I d I'll I'll avoid it if I can.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Every networking, every client. Yeah, it's back, yeah. Yeah, I like that. I've actually got a question that is probably not really relevant to the podcast, but I might be. Is there a colour that is like a big mistake? You know, like do people wear colours and think, oh, people should avoid that colour?

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Um, well, it I mean our all our skins are made up completely differently, and it's all about the light reflection, isn't it? On and and how colours reflect, therefore, from the light onto your skin tone. So the easiest way to work out what a bad colour is is without any makeup to go and stand near a window with different colours next to your skin, and you'll see what what the mistake is because you you won't look as radiant as the ones that work well.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

I had that with jewelry recently. I was in um I don't know, um Olivia Oliver bonus, and I was switching out my necklace because it'd broken and I was really like not anti-gold jewellery, but I didn't really love it. I always thought it quite like blingy, like I it was just too much. And so I always wore silver without fail. And I was in there and I was like, I'm gonna know I'm like these two um necklaces, and she said, Oh, to be honest, I really think the gold suits you better. Like, I don't think you need to have ice colours, you've got really pale skin. And I was like, Oh, okay, thank you. Like, really, so you're wearing gold now, aren't you? So now I wear gold. Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't know if it works, but I've yeah, I'm wearing it.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Yeah, so people fall into two skin tone at a simple level. You're either a cool tone or you're a warm tone. That's as simple as well, but it's very complex. But um, yeah, and so if you're cool toned, your silver will work better on you. And if you're warm, then gold.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

How do you know if you're warm like warm or cold?

SPEAKER_02 42:51

I look seal. Um, well, again, a simple analogy, um, but it doesn't work it again. This does take time, but it you know, if your veins are quite bluey, then you tend to be cool toned.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

So I should have silver.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

She was wrong. She looks like they're green, then then then then you're warm tone. But um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

If I need to get back to silver, oh no, I was just interested by that. I thought it was an interesting one. Yeah. My sister's very warm coloured, like she's very tanned, um, like her skin colour is quite tanned. She wears a lot of like I guess muted colours. She's very like brown, white, cream. She's got a very classic style, um, gold. But she always looks really elegant um and put together. And if I wore what she wears, I don't think I'd look the same.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Colour wise or style wise? Both. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Because she is very like she wears a lot of like brown and and black and white and um really like muted colours, I would say. Like she wouldn't put on maybe she'd wear like she'd wear like green and stuff, but she wouldn't wear bright pink, yeah. Yeah. Um whereas my mum is bright orange, bright pink, yeah, multicoloured crocs kind of vibe. Also questionable. But they're but like but if you put them together, if they'd switch places, I don't think they would look no right, which is quite interesting.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

No, that's right, yeah. It I mean, like I said, it's multifaceted, really. So there's colour and then there's style, isn't there? So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Well, you go down a bit of a rabbit hole, can't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you you probably can't, I would. You probably know exactly where to start and finish, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Once you've got everything out of your wardrobe, once once you've determined your style and getting it back in there, I think it becomes easier to say, actually, that isn't part of the gang, that is. It's much easier. That's what I see with clients. Well, they once we've got, you know, the stuff that works, as we start to put stuff back in, they'll that you you quickly work out. I had a client recently who um uh had quite strong shoulders and um and was wearing jackets which only made them look even wider, and um so we uh she quickly saw that, but she had loads of stuff that just didn't suit her and she wasn't wearing it, but and she then realised why.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

So um do you think people have seasons as well? So um I prefer summer. I prefer summer clothes, yeah, I prefer dresses, I find the winter so hard to dress for. Um do you think that impacts as well?

SPEAKER_02 45:28

I I do have clients say to me, the opposite, actually, I can dress for winter any day of the week, but I struggle in the summer. But that's just I think that's really just trying to understand what style of clothes suit your body type and textures as well. So some people don't like wearing wool because it you know itches them and things like that. So um, but it could be down to style personality as well, couldn't it? Because if you're a bit of a romantic, you like romantic looks, that might work better in the summer because you've got big flowy maxi dresses, whereas in the winter, how does that look? You know? So you have to maybe think a bit harder about it.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

So do you have a summer winter wardrobe or seasonal wardrobe? Do I personally? Yeah, can you do that?

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah, I definitely put my lighter clothes away in the winter and yeah. And I like that then, because you feel like you've got a whole new wardrobe when you get the new ones out.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

I'd have four, I'd have four seasonal wardrobe every quarter. I'd be like, yay, yeah, another set. I get bored of clothes very quickly. So I will buy something and I will wear it within an inch of its life for like weeks, and then you'll never see it again. So I ideally should probably have a shared wardrobe with someone and rotate it.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Because then I find it again and I'm like, oh, I'll I'll I'll wear that again now. Because it feels new again, but that's like a year later.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

So that could be that could be something to work on in terms of wardrobe, it I use the word lightly management and how you structure and organise your wardrobe. So if you're tending to wear only 10%, we tend to go back to the same part of the rail because that's easy to go to, and then we put the stuff we wear most frequently back in the same place. So that's the bit that gets worn by getting it all out and organising it in a different way, um, and certainly by planning the week ahead. So I talk, you know, I talk a lot about planning the week ahead, but it'll save you the time in the morning, it'll make you feel really smug because you know exactly what you're wearing, you know why you're wearing it, because you've got that client, blah, blah, blah. So organise your wardrobe, but organise it in a way where you're bringing a bit of um novelty back in. So you might say, right, I'm gonna have my, let's say, tops. You wanna um tops is your way of updating, refreshing your wardrobe. You could keep them in a place and then you plan the week ahead. This doesn't take as long as it sounds. Plan the week ahead and then just have your section there, and you go, right, no, I know that works with that. Or you or I do this. I have a I have like say a suit and I have two or three tops that go with it, and then one week I'll wear that, then I'll wear that, then I'll wear that, and then you're rotating it, you see, and you don't get bored too often.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

So, do you have people um organise their wardrobes as well?

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Yeah, yeah. But when once I've done a wardrobe, I'll organise it and so that they can see what goes with what, and then I leave them with a list at the end of anything they might need to add to it. But I have to say, most clients, that list is no longer than three or four items, and it tends to be the obvious, like shoes, a belt, and some sort of jacket quite often. Jackets, funnily enough, are the thing that we maybe don't invest in, and they are the most versatile because if you buy, you know, a jacket's a core item, isn't it? You can, you know, for c temperature-wise, it can shift something. Um, if you buy the right style, then you know it can work with a number of outfits. So it's and that then gives you more to wear in your wardrobe. But most clients probably only need to buy three or four things when I leave them, they're not buying a whole new wardrobe.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

And what happens if so over the month I go from being fairly thin to being very fluated? Yeah, and then I go back again. Yeah. How do you manage that back in? Because I would say I'm probably about half a dress size bigger before Mother Nature hits me. And so I find that the first two, three weeks I can wear anything in my wardrobe, and then I'm really quite limited to what I could probably wear. And then in those two weeks or week or week and a half before, I everything feels uncomfortable, and I really struggle with getting my wardrobe right, which is probably why I then go down to the comfies. Yeah. Um but that massively impacts everything then for me, because then I I feel sloppy, I f I don't feel ready for it. How does that how do you combat that in your wardrobe?

SPEAKER_02 49:41

I mean, uh based on what I based on my experiences so far, I think if but it's about finding clothes that you don't label as being for that time of the month or for that feeling that you associate with it. Because the moment you go down that route, you'll yeah, I've heard women talk about fat clothes. Yeah, the moment you do that, you're you your mental state, your frame in which you're looking upon the world changes as well. And that's that just shows how how influential clothes can be. So I think it's about finding styles of clothes that might work for both periods, if you can do. Um, and so if we find the right shape of clothes that suit your body type, we just need to make sure that they'll work any week in the month.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Yeah, I made a mistake recently. I bought a pair of trousers and I tried them on and they fitted me great because I was half a size bigger than I normally would be. And now they don't fit me for three weeks of the month. Okay. So I'm like, oh, it's so annoying. And then really nice. No, they're like the um they're from um Holland Cooper, um, and they're straight leg trousers, but they've got like the fabric of like a jogger, but they look smart. Oh. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So they don't have like belts, it's a button and a zip. Yeah. So it's you'd have to roll it, which obviously doesn't look great. So I could only wear it for yeah one week of the month. Yeah. It was a big mistake. I should have got the size below and then just sacrifice that week one the three weeks before. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 51:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

But it's it it does make a big difference. I think I guess that's where the planning comes into it with styling.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

As long as the as long as there are good clothes in what you might determine as being slightly more negative weeks, yeah, because that's where it could it could mentally it could affect you, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Because we label things, it's so easy to label things, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Well then you get on the whole avenue of, oh, I need to go to the gym, I've and it's well, it's probably not, I've probably got a ton of water retention and a bit puffy, but like that is another thing. It completely changed when your clothes don't fit you. And I also find that in this day and age, you can go into one shop and try on one size, and you go into another shop and try another size, and they they're different. I I went to HM and trying to pair trousers the day, which would normally be my size. I could barely get on my leg. I was like, what is happening? Went to MS, tried to pair trousers, and they fit it perfectly, and that's really hard. And I think it's really hard to not look at the number of the size and just go off the feeling of it because I think if it fits better, it will look better than just going for the size that you think you are.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Absolutely. We're hung up on that number of people.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

No one's going, oh, were they a size 10? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

No one asked. I know, I know, I know. Vanity sizing, it's it is. I mean, I I you know, I've grown up with it, so I I understand how bad it can be.

SPEAKER_00 52:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Uh and we are, aren't we? We're just hooked on it. We're hooked on what number it is. But yeah, no, it's much better. Because even within even within retailers, their sizes vary, and that's why they, you know, the smart ones now have said this is a you know a bigger fit or a smaller fit.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Um why can't they be generic? That's just a question. Why do they change so much between I don't know, I mean, they've certainly got bigger.

SPEAKER_02 52:57

So I mean, if you go online, I'll find it funny now. Um, so if I go online now and buy a an item from the 60s, um, it is double the number that I am today on the high street.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

So that is the difference, that's the shift. So if you look at old um sewing patterns, for example, it's an it's a hoot, it's an absolute hoot. I think, you know, like back then a 10 would be what say a 14 is now. So yeah, you it's worth just because all the sizes are written on the back. But also I think our shapes have changed as well. So our proportions have changed. Um, yeah, I don't know why. That's why I think it's really important to know our own measurements. So I always say to clients, you know, can you know, can you give me your measurements? So so that way then we can understand how you b how your body shape is it looks, but also what you know, what retailers are likely to be able to work best for you as well.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Do you give that? Do you help people with their like wit shops to shop in?

SPEAKER_02 54:00

Yeah, because yeah, because they they big retailers like Marks and Spencer's, they have a range of styles, don't they? But but but others don't. They tend to be more fashion-led or size-led or what have you. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Wow, interesting. Is there anything that you would want to add? Anything that you'd give advice if someone is questioning their wardrobe and how they feel where where to start, how do they get hold of you?

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Um, so I've got a website, i-personal styling.co.uk. I would say um that to uh it's a bit like food, isn't it? Think about what you want to achieve in life and and and um and therefore you know value yourself and then look at your wardrobe and say, is that really serving me? If you don't want to work with a stylist, there's loads of advice online. There's loads of advice on my website. Start there, think about it, but really think about what it is you want to achieve. Do you, I don't know, do you want to go out and meet somebody new? Do you want a relationship? How could clothes affect that? Do you want a new job? You know, do you need to think about the the the type of company you want to work for and what you'd need to dress for for that? Um, so really think about where you want to go and then value yourself. See yourself as a celebrity or something, and what would you do to yourself in order to improve? It's not that expensive these days to shift your clothing and your wardrobe. It really isn't. So that yeah, that's that would be my advice.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

I love that. Um, thank you very much for today. I massively appreciate it. I feel like I've learned loads.