Dr. Courtney Day, ND on Lyme, Morgellons & the Path to Remission

In this episode of What The Morgs?, host Britt Girvan sits down with Dr. Courtney Day, ND, a licensed naturopathic physician and microbiologist who specializes in Lyme disease, Morgellons, parasites, and illnesses connected to environmental exposure. Dr. Day shares both her professional expertise and her deeply personal journey with Lyme and Morgellons, offering a compassionate and insightful look into the complexity of these often misunderstood conditions. Together, Britt and Dr. Day discuss the challenges patients face in getting diagnosed, why so many sufferers feel dismissed by the medical system, and what it can look like to pursue healing through a more individualized, whole-person approach.

3 Topics Discussed:

• Dr. Courtney Day’s personal journey with Lyme and Morgellons
   Dr. Day opens up about her own experience developing symptoms, searching for answers, and how her background in microbiology helped shape her understanding of these complex illnesses.
• Why Lyme and Morgellons are so difficult to diagnose and treat
   Britt and Dr. Day discuss the limitations of current testing, the barriers patients face in conventional medicine, and the importance of working with clinicians who understand Lyme and Morgellons.
• Hope, remission, and whole-person healing
   Dr. Day shares her perspective on remission, explaining how healing often involves addressing not only physical symptoms, but also mental, emotional, spiritual, and environmental factors.

About What The Morgs? Podcast:
What The Morgs? is a podcast for people navigating Lyme and Morgellons disease. Hosted by Britt Girvan, the show is built on a mission to support, educate, and empower those affected—turning personal struggle into shared strength and purpose.

What The Morgs? Website: https://whatthemorgs.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Britt Gervin, host of What the Morgs podcast, and I am so happy that you're here. This podcast is dedicated to raising awareness for both Lyme and Morgellan's disease. I promise to give you authentic conversation, lived experiences, and expert interviews with people in the medical community. I'm so grateful that you're here. Thank you so much for tuning in.

unknown 0:24

Dr.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Day, welcome to the What the Morks podcast. She is a licensed naturopathic physician and microbiologist who focuses on Lyme disease, morgelins and parasites.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

There's weird filaments and fibers coming out of my skin lesions. Dr. Klingart was the one who taught me that I would need to really learn my parasite protocols if I was treating Morgellins patients.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

It's about 6% of the Lyme population has morgelins.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

So if you flip it, then it would be about 97% of Morgellins patients that actually have more answers now than we did just a few years ago for some of these tough toe infections.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Just curious about your idea of like morgelins and remission.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, and I've even gotten to complete remission myself. And then fallen off out of it and then got back into it. Regulations.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Hello and welcome. Today I am so excited to be joined by Dr. Courtney Day. She is a licensed naturopathic physician and microbiologist who focuses on Lyme disease, morgelins, parasites, and illnesses connected to environmental exposure. Dr. Day has been recognized at international conferences for her work in Lyme and Morgelens. And what I love most about her approach is how individualized and compassionate her care is. Dr. Day, welcome to the What the Morks podcast. I'm super excited to have you today.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

I'm excited as well. Thank you for such a nice introduction. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

It is my pleasure. Any any champion of Morgelins, I'm a fan of. So thank you for all that you do for this population.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Oh, I was just brainstorming this morning because it has been quite a long journey just trying to remember exactly when everything started and dates and years. And so I hope I can do a good job for you today and help patients understand this complexity much better. Because I know it is so confusing.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, I would love that. So that is actually my first question is can you tell us a little bit about your background? And it's also personal and professional for you. Um so and and I'd love for you to be able to talk about your microbiology um background as well and how that might complement your practice. Anyway, that would be really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Well, that makes sense because that's really where my story begins. It was when I was in my microbiology program as a student that I first discovered that I had maybe some weird symptoms and stuff going on that I couldn't quite explain and I didn't even quite understand at that point in time what exactly was happening. But that opportunity to learn about microbiology and be connected with clinical and laboratory microbiologists was such a blessing for me because when I first finally recognized, oh wow, there's weird filaments and fibers coming out of my skin lesions, um, I was selling microbiology equipment at the time. So I was going to labs all over the West Coast, meeting microbiologists and hearing about their research. So at that point in time, I had quite a few contacts to call. And I already built relationships with them and just, you know, try to ask them, hey, do you know anything about this? And at that point in time, what I was um astounded by was just how little was known. Um, even by some of the best microbiologists I could find. Um, those were anaerobic microbiologists, aerobic microbiologist, everybody. So um I was like, wow, I'm really stepping into something maybe new here. And um it was lucky that I was able to find any help and resources at that time.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

So and and what time frame is this, just out of curiosity, so our listeners know.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

That's what I was brainstorming about because I graduated in 2005, and this is so this is around 2006, okay, 2007, that I'm really starting to get an idea of what's going on in my case and searching for answers and searching for doctors and physicians. And at that point in time, there wasn't very many. There was a I was in Los Angeles, so where there was a very controversial toxicologist who was speaking out about it, as well as a pathologist who was working with her, but then stepped away from working with her and started to do his own research. So um I had the opportunity to visit both of those practitioners, but um the pathologist, although he was very interested in my case, um, he seemed to be much more interested in the pathology rather than you know, finding out a protocol treatment plant. And um it was shocking to me because he showed me a whole stack of papers that he had tried to publish from other cases he had seen with just a bunch of denials from all various journals. So um it was very complex and confusing, even going to him as a pathologist to understand exactly what was going on. Um, and and then the toxicologist that I went to, she was the one who actually really helped more with the treatment plan and got me on to just more of a dietary program, some of the nutritional things that you would do for detoxification, more of a naturopathic approach. And really just she was the one who steered me to like maybe you should go study naturopathic medicine since you're a microbiologist and you're interested in this anyway, and you're gonna have to try to help figure this out. If anyone maybe can, maybe you can. So she really encouraged me to, you know, try to heal enough to go to naturopathic school and use my microbiology background while doing that to really just get into the studies and research. So, lucky for me, that's really when the research started, was right around that same time that I started medical school. So we finally started getting some connections and answers to infections. And looking back, it made a lot of sense to me. I remember being at the Charles E. Holman Foundation conference when they finally started presenting these connections and going like, aha, oh wait, I kind of remember. Hey, my mom was with me, and I remember, hey mom, do you remember when you brought me to that ER with that weird rash? And maybe that was a line had something to do with Lyme disease or a bullseye rash. And so that's when I really started to put the pieces together, and I felt kind of dumbfounded and just realized how even with my background in microbiology, and we were studying beryllia at the time in the lab. And actually, when I got when I realized when I looked back that we were studying it around the same exact time that I got um the rash, so I don't know if it was a lab exposure or exposure out in nature because we were collecting ticks from the nature to bring into the lab. Um, so there were definitely ticks around Cal Poly at that time. Um but I never remembered a tick bite like most patients or anything like that. So it wasn't high on my radar, but I still felt silly when I looked back and thought, oh wow, maybe that I could have missed that and all the doctors could have missed it too.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

So yeah, well, it's interesting too. I mean, I find it really uh, you know, interesting just that you had in 2006, you had positive experiences with two clinicians, right? I mean, I know that for most patients that probably end up finding you, right? It's just the minute they find you and and you know, it it you're like their safety zone, right? To get an actual clinician to listen to our valid concerns. The fact that in 2006 you had two clinicians actually willing and open to like trying to understand it, because I know for myself, when I first started this journey and started seeing clinicians and you know, obviously being excused, dismissed, all the things, it gets to the point where you realize that the clinicians are getting paid. I'm walking out, I am still sick, I know something's wrong, and I'm gonna continue to get sicker, right? So then when we find someone like you that is, you know, Lyme literate and more gelins literate and and all the things, um, it's a gift. It's a gift, it's an absolute gift. But I find it astonishing that in 2006 you actually had two clinicians curious enough because for me, I kept thinking like every time I go to the next doc or the next doc or the next doc, you know, someone's gonna be curious. No, no one was curious. I mean, it was like I was their 15-minute window, and you know, it's symptom, symptom, symptom, and there you go. And then you're out the door, you know?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah. I had that experience as well. And I actually have to thank my father. He was the one who found um the pathologist and toxicologists and just kind of really started searching more outside of the normal medical paradigm just to see if there was anybody who could maybe help and give me answers. And the pathologist, um, my mom came to the visit with me, and I didn't know this at the time, but he brought her aside away from me and just shared some of the statistics he was seeing in his practice at that time, which was quite a high suicide rate. So he had convinced her that it was most important for me to actually move home with my parents. And they lived in Dallas, Texas at the time. Um, and so the mom's first thought was oh, your sister has a great dermatologist in the Dallas area. He's pretty like world renowned. We should go there. Um, and that's where I had an experience like you're talking about, where actually he didn't fully dismiss me. I think part of the reason why was I brought up the fact that I was applying to medical schools at the time and um that my sister was one of his uh patients that had really done well with his care. And so we had good record. Um, but I remember from across the room, he told me that um he sees some patients like me, but not very many. And really, maybe my treatment should be handcuffs because um he thought I would have beautiful skin if I just stopped picking. Yeah. That was a little shocking to hear from dermatologists. And I thought it was a weird way to say it too to a patient. Like, what do you mean it? Because I didn't understand at first what he meant, like you should have handcuffs. I'm like, wait, what?

SPEAKER_00 11:27

So I mean, I'm sure you hear that fairly regularly. I mean, as far as yeah, I mean, not necessarily handcuffs, but just that, you know, it's it's a picking disorder. Um you're gonna be yeah, that's pretty common. Can you talk a little bit about then um, you know, the journey after that? So um obviously you chose to go to naturopathic school, um, you know, and and the rest is history. You now own daily wellness, where you see um a whole host of patients. Um, but I know that you specialized, I talked about that in the beginning. But can you talk about a little bit about um your practice here in Portland?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah, no, it's been quite a journey even since um opening my practice, really. Um because uh really when if you look at Morgellan's disease, right, it's uh connected to a lot of vector worn infections. And um, not only was I seeing patients complaining of Morgellan's disease coming into my practice, but I was seeing more and more patients complaining of various vectors. So it was kind of early on in my practice that I really noticed that there is this certain trend in some patients. Um, and I got to work with some practitioners who had been had naturopathic practices in the Portland area for um quite a while, already established. Um, and so they got to share some of their chronic cases with me of patients who had morgellins. And some of those patients also seem to have other strange things, and things like um springtails were first brought up to me at that time. Um, and some of the other uh insect kind of connections that you'll see to morgellins that are not quite in the research done with the connection to Lyme disease. So yeah, as I started to get some weeks where vectors would just seem to pour into my office, uh, it got to be more um of a problem as far as trying to screen patients and make sure we were doing proper vector control. Um, so uh now I'm actually in virtual practice, so I don't have that uh problem as much. Um, but I'm surprised I don't hear that from more clinicians treating Morgellan's disease. I did notice that on Ginger Sabley's website, she just clearly states that she doesn't treat ectoparasites. Maybe that's what I should do because uh yeah, I do see quite a few patients come in coming to me, not just for Morgellan's disease, but sometimes Morgellan's disease and things like scabies or body lice or fleas or whatever other ectoparasite exposures they're dealing with. And sometimes they're dealing with that on their body or in their home or both. So it's been quite a learning experience. Um, and uh it was a really a couple cases that I saw of patients complaining of fly larva in their skin in my ISIS, and then also getting the larvae showing up in my. I brought my dog to work, so if she had a water bowl there, seeing the larvae actually show up in her water bowl and bringing it to her her vet and getting identified through her um vet and Texas AM, that's really where I started to see some odd connections to some of these vectors and things that we know um are spread by such vectors. So um, for example, one of the flies came back as a fly that's known to cause leishmoniasis. Is that spreading it in in the Pacific Northwest? Really, we think of that more in the South America. But the I realized that that time is just how our tests for even diseases like that, just kind of like Lyme disease, the tests can be unreliable. So it's hard to really know in some of these cases um exactly which co-infections these patients might have um with vector worn exposures.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Can you talk a little bit about, you know, obviously we both know that the listeners they're struggling. Oftentimes they lack resources, um you know, they've lost their job, their families have walked away. I'm curious if you can share a little bit about like, so a patient with morgellins comes in and you know, um generally like how do you tend to treat for morgelins? And I know that it varies patient to patient. I know it varies based on whatever, you know, um, you know, co-infections um they have. So, but generally, do you tend to um you tend to treat the you know the Lyme first, assuming that the Morgelins patient has Lyme? It's my understanding that it's about six percent of the Lyme population has more gellens. So if you flip it, then it would be about 97% of Morgelins patients that actually have Lyme. And there's a small percentage that that don't. So I wanted to know if you could kind of talk about like what your kind of your protocol is, where you start. So not only orally or intervenously, topically, all the things, just I want our our listeners to have resources.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Got you. Um really, I do take it as a case-by-case basis. Um, but in general, um I do agree with some of the doctors who trained me um in the treatment of these complex cases. That really, if a patient is uh able to, because not all patients are, you know, it really depends on the state of the body and the organ system. So sometimes I'll do labs, actually, most of the time I'll do labs to assess the patient and where they're at and their health before we start any treatments, especially aggressive treatments. Um, but I do notice that tackling parasites seems to be a big part of this. Um, and uh Dr. Klingart was the one who taught me that I would need to really learn my parasite protocols if I was treating Morgellins patients, and to remember that the parasites themselves can have some of these infections um and be a part of the biofilm aspect. So um it's hard to say that that's like you have to go in a specific order because a lot of times I'm doing treatments that cover uh a lot broad aspect. So a lot of the treatments that I use are um not just antiparasitic, but have other aspects like anti-inflammatory aspects. Um, sometimes it'll cover viruses and bacteria as well. So um that's what's hard to know is like even when you find that a treatment really works. I remember when I had the suspicion that some of my cases had to do with leishmoniasis, the CEO of the drug company in Povado for that um for the treatment for leishmaniasis, um one of them, is a very expensive medication, um, but it's available in the US. So the CEO was interested enough in the cases to donate the courses. And those patients actually did extremely well. Um, but it's hard to know if that was because they really were were true leishmaniasis cases, or is that because of some other action of the drug? So um he wasn't surprised that it was helpful. And um, maybe when in the future, when we see some of these prices come down, there will be more treatment options and things that can be tried on patients. Um, but really right now, in this part part of time, um, I really tailored protocols based on what the patient's symptoms are like. And I try to do lab testing if possible, because a lot of times that does reveal which pathogens are the ones that are most active. And so I find that not only do patients have Lyme disease, actually, most patients what I find in my practice have other types of borrelia, not Lyme disease, but other relapsing fever strains. It makes sense to me that, you know, it can be hard to get tested positive on your standard Western blot serology. And then the same thing with co-infections, depending on the different labs that you use, they all look for different species. So I've seen all these different species come back with different labs. Some of the labs are considered more um reliable than others, and some are looking at the blood and some are looking at the urine. So it's hard to know for sure. But um when I started seeing Bartanella bacilliformis come back on some patients' urine tests, I started questioning if maybe that had more to do with the case because that one can present in skin lesions. And so I'll sometimes tailor like what I think might be the most predominant pathogen, whether that be borrelia, Bartonella, or Babesia. And I think Babesia is a very important parasite. Um, it's an intracellular protozoal parasite that lives in the red blood cells, but we know that it can also go to other tissues, um, just like berylia and bartanella, they can go to tissues. And actually, I think the issues are mostly in the tissues, which is part of the problem that we're testing blood usually in patients and not tissues. Um but when a patient tests positive for Babesia, a lot of times I'm doing um different protocols or antimalarial protocols or taking that into consideration because I do think that that's an important parasite that can make your body more susceptible to other parasites. Um it was Dr. Horowitz who um really opened my eyes the most to babesiosis and the co-infections with his Lyme patients. So I have been trained in some of his protocols, like the dapsome protocol, and have seen that work well for some patients, um, as well as the other standard of care protocols for Babesia. Um, and then now we're using alternative protocols for Babesia that um some have been now through clinical trials with very small numbers of patients, but still we um have more answers now than we did just a few years ago for some of these tough coinfections. So I am seeing better results as we're learning more and having more treatment options. Yeah, that's the good news.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

That's the that's yeah, it's we're such a marginalized population. Any progress in research is, I mean, it's huge.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

It's huge. And unfortunately, we don't have a lot of money going to research. So, and the media doesn't do a great job of covering this research. So, a lot of times we'll just hear about doxycycline and how it fails and not really getting into some of these cutting edge protocols.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah. What um what are some of um like when you talk about say Lyme disease, morgelins, and environmental exposures, what are some of the most um common misunderstandings that you kind of hear out in the world?

SPEAKER_01 22:41

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Oh my gosh, there's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

I think I've heard at almost every theory you could probably come up with now as of this. And I can see why people question it because to be honest, as I'm doing detox protocols, and one of my favorites is the ionic detox foot bath where you use a plug-in. Okay. I love it. Seeing some extremely strange things come out in my bath and um things that yeah, it would make me question whether this is has to do with nanotechnology or so I get it. I understand why patients are saying these things. And I really do wish we had more research about that. That was one thing I remember my toxicologist doing was researching all of this weird stuff. Um, but really, as time has gone on, a lot of the researchers that I met are just more into looking at biopsies and really studying. I understand why studying it intact and skin. But at the same time, as the clinician, I'm presented with all sorts of things that people bring me as matchbox specimens in bags that have come supposedly come from their skin or other places in their body.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

And um, I'm curious. Um, oh, it's interesting. My specimens are actually with uh Dr. Wymore in uh at Oklahoma State. So I I don't know how long that will take. It's been it's been a minute since they've been there, but um, I don't have the results yet.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

But um well, from my understanding, because I have also had patients send specimens to Oklahoma State University over the years, okay. And I never gotten results because it's blinded research. So um the results do get published when they publish the results of their research at Oklahoma State University. But it's not necessarily attached to me. It's not, yeah, given to the patient. So, like Samantha Rice, PhD, just presented their recent poster at the ILADS conference, um, and it found some consistent findings with previous research, um, connecting most the most association to beryllia in the skin, but there was other um coinfections that are basically polymicrobial aspect to it. Um and so she's working under Dr. Wymore. So, from my understanding, they're still accepting specimens and using it in their research, but that's the unfortunate part is it's not like a lab that you'll get your result and then your doctor will have that information and then you'll get help. So I do try to get patients tested with clinical labs if possible. Um, because when I have that search, it was been very difficult to get the results on blinded.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Oh, okay. So are you sending it then to like a local lab?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

When I was first in clinical practice, I was in insurance and set up with lab core and quest. So I got to do a lot a lot of tests through Lab Core and Quest. And some patients would come back positive on just your standard Western blot or serology. Um, but I find that using advanced labs is really where I can find more cases, a positive, especially the labs that can look for other species of borrelia and labs that do specialize in Bartonella or Babesia. So I've changed the labs or that I've used over the years, but Igenix has been consistently one lab that I've worked with. Um, and Dr. Shaw, who's the head of research there, um, was really interested in Morgellons early on. And so she was able to um actually they did our their own research on Morgellon's disease um on some of my patient samples. So I thought that was part of the way that I got more information on these patients was being able to unwind some of that research. Yeah. And so they were able to get a lot more tests done on those patients than your average patient can afford.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

What are you seeing like from like a global perspective? Right. Um, there's sort of this idea that like, you know, ticks don't exist in Australia, more more gelins, you know, doesn't happen there either. You know, it's um, you know, I I'm curious just maybe what what you might hear out in the clinical world beyond the United States, um, as far as say, you know, more gelins, but also maybe even uh chronic infections or environmental illness. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Um at one point I had the ability for anyone in the world to contact me um and set up just a free visit online, and that's really where I got the most contacts from patients in different countries and all over the world. Um so I've heard from patients in Australia um who are really struggling to find help and physicians there and recognition, New Zealand as well, um, all over the UK. Uh even I had a patient come from Korea, um, India.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

For Margellins in uh in particular.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Yeah, the patient from India was really interesting. I actually thought it might be delusional infestation until I saw some more advanced Margellins patients who seemed to then kind of match his case. So that's what's really opened my eyes more to some of these really bizarre advanced cases. He was the first patient who really showed me like all of this plat plant matter that was coming from his feet and out of his skin. Um, but since then I've seen other patients send me similar specimens and pictures. So uh yeah, I almost think that there's more like an advanced version of this. The re reason why I say advanced version is one of the first patients who presented to me this way, she was uh she grew up in Lyme, Connecticut, and was diagnosed with Lyme disease early on in her childhood, was one of the first cases that they were really studying there. So um that's why I think that maybe it's more of an advanced presentation. Um, because when she came to me, she was like, Hey, I think you're gonna think I'm delusional because of all this weird stuff that's going on with me and all these specimens I have. But I just want you to know, like, I'm one of the really historic Lyme patient here. So maybe this is why. And um, she had some really interesting specimens. One that I tried to send off to the CDC, I took pictures of it crawling out of the formalin up the vial. Um, but the CDC said no parasite seen in the vial, so I never got an answer on that one. But yeah, I can see why some patients have been diagnosed with delusional parasitosis or and really believe that they do have parasites based on some of the cases I've seen. I could see why.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah. Um, how have, I mean, you've been in this or at this for quite quite a long time. I this is, you know, I'm two and a half years into treatment. Um I'm just curious, you know, since that time frame to now, how has the the world of Morjellans in particular, how has it shifted?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Yeah, um, that's a really good question. I remember when I first started practicing, I felt like I was the oddball of the naturopathic doctors being like, let's all go learn more about Lyme disease and treat the patients here in the area. They're like, this is a East Coast disease. Um, so there were a few practitioners I could find in the area treating patients, but it was just even at our college, at the National Uh University of Natural Medicine, I remember trying to test patients as a student clinician, and it was really kind of like, no, why? They don't have a good exposure history or reason. Um, so it's kind of polarized. I feel like there still is a group of doctors that really think and act that way. Um, and then there's also doctors who are referring patients to my practice and other practices, and there's a lot more naturopathic doctors now practicing and treating chronic infections like Lyme and parasites and Margellins and mold and than there was when I first started. There was like nobody. So uh yeah, it's it's changed. I mean, that's really positive. ILADS, which is the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society, has become more open to discussion with naturopathic doctors and more discussion on Morgellan's disease over the years. But I do wish it was more a part of the education because it's just a little like this year was just a little poster presentation on it, and that's about it. But um yeah, it's it's definitely getting better than it was when it hardly anything was said about it at all.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Well, hopefully we can get the wheels turning and, you know, um, you know, get a hopefully get a larger segment, you know, maybe next year. Um yeah, that I mean that's super positive. That makes me really happy um as far as you know treating patients and giving them appropriate access to care. What would be really great is to just have, you know, uh, I know that there is the website where you can locate lying literate uh physicians, which is really helpful. It'd be really nice if we could maybe create something like that for the Morgellan's population so that they have a safe place to go. You know, you mentioned suicide earlier, and it's my understanding, I was told that a Morgellan's patient risk of suicide is 10 times greater than you know, a non-Morgellan's uh patient. That's significant.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Some of these statistics is really hard to know, I think, because they're not studying this very well. But right, um yes, I do think that that's a very important statistic to try to improve upon. Um and then just the amount of like if we could get some sort of consensus too from I think our government that would really help because I feel like that's part of why it's so confusing is that we're almost getting mixed messages right now from the government that we're no longer gonna be gaslighting chronic Lyme patients, but that yet at the same time we don't really have the resources available or the clinicians trained to recognize and treat these patients. So um it's been very frustrating, especially in Oregon. So I'm hoping that things will change. We actually have meetings set up with the epidemiologists of the state, so I'm hoping there'll be more progress. Um, because I'm always asking, like, hey, where are our infectious disease doctors in the state that really want to handle and tackle these infections? Um I think I've seen more denials than anything from infectious disease. And um I'm that's part of the why I'm always looking at lab tests. I keep thinking, well, maybe it's just the lab tests. They want a different lab, they want a different test. And so now we have all these new lab tests available. Um, I was just calling around the labs today to get the different pricing, comparing the PCR tests, because they have digital PCR tests now, uh culture-enriched PCR tests, there's fish tests available for all these infections. And so all the labs right now are competing price-wise. And there's actually a government-funded competition for Lyme disease right now, too, that some of those same labs are participating in. So it's a it's a really interesting time, but it's also a confusing time for all of us, even as clinicians, just trying to learn and navigate how we can help best help um best help our patients, but not you know, spend all of their money on lab testing and get them the right testing and um making sure that if their cases are reportable, that we report them to the state, all of that. So um it's I I think we'll get more awareness and and help once we have all of that kind of settled more and more lab tests available.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

And I I agree. I agree. I mean, the diagnostics is the key, you know. Um but again, then my concern then goes back to then, you know, Lyme literate folks providing clinical care. So um, because I always explain to people, you know, I always say, you know, um, the Western blot, for example, right? We know it's 45%, you know, accurate. So, but what I explain to people is just that if you were to go in and see your Western doc, you know, they're not Lyme literate. They are going to hand this to you, you know. I mean, um, you know, I I guess once they determine whether or not that's an appropriate test. But let's just say they get to that place where that's the appropriate test, that clinician isn't isn't going to know that the that the Western blood is is is grossly inaccurate. And so, you know, you get the results and more than likely you're gonna get you know a false negative. And that individual walks out the door and continues to remain sick. You know, if if we could, you know, to your point, just remove those simple barriers, put, you know, diagnostic tools in there that are 99.99 or, you know, somewhere in there, not 45%, you know, accurate, you know, we can, you know, potentially save a lot of people from the chronic piece of Lyme. You know, I I'd really like to think that we could really circumvent long-term chronic illness for a large part of our population if we could get appropriate diagnostics. It's so frustrating. So frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah. No, I agree. And then if it could be through somebody that's a national lab that's commercially insured, that would be ideal because really that's what I'm seeing come into my office are negative lab core or negative quest tests. And they did advance their tests, um, so they're better than they were previously, but they're still obviously missing quite a lot of cases. Um, and then especially for Babesia, uh, which I think is even more important to be aware of because it can there can be fatal cases. Um what I've noticed is that um where our lab tests are missing cases when we test through lab core requests versus some of these other labs, or with fish, which is looking directly for the um Babesia, and then using a probe. And then so when it comes to state reporting, there's also discrepancies on which cases are supposed to be reportable. And for some reason, they have the Babesia Duncani species, which is supposed to be the one more common on the West Coast, as a very high titer for reporting, much higher than the micrati. So even when I see patients test positive, sometimes they're not high enough level to be reportable. And so it's part of the reason why their case is almost just like not it's ignored and should not be when there's a lot of these patients are really symptomatic.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

You know, we all come from stories that are just, you know, they're they're horrendous. And I none of us deserve to be treated like this. So I guess in closing, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about. So, you know, if if if I'm an individual with Lyme andor moreins and or you know, environmental exposure, I want to reach out to you, or I might have a clinician who is, you know, just hungry enough to want to help me and and understand. Um, so are you so obviously they can find you at Daily Wellness. Um, but if if let's say they had a clinician who wanted to learn, um, is that something that you are available to do? So if if if say the patient or the clinician reached out and just said, you know, hey, I've got this patient, so and so, um, are you open to collaborating um in assisting them in some way?

SPEAKER_01 39:35

I am. It really depends on where the patient is located since I'm licensed in Oregon. And naturopathic doctors are licensed in certain states, and certain states have certain laws against naturopathic practice. So I kind of have to be careful and really figure out where the patient's located, if we can help set something up, or I'll refer sometimes to a colleague that's in the area if I think someone else could perhaps handle the case and then converse with that colleague. Um, so there's just not a straightforward answer to that question, but um, I usually do try to make it work so that I can help the patient in some aspect, some way. And um uh one thing that I've have uh decided to do in my practice right now is even use some of the other uh physicians who have their ability to consult on cases. So sometimes that's what I've done too, is set them up, not with myself, but someone else who's also a great uh Lyme and Margellins expert. So I'm glad that, you know, at least there are more resources now available in through telemedicine for patients. Um, because in the past it was much harder to find referrals or places for patients to go.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

What are you um I'm just curious about your your your idea of like more gelins and remission. Um have you seen some patients attain remission?

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Okay, yeah, yeah. And I've even gotten to complete remission myself and then fallen off out of it and then got back into it. Now I feel like more in remission again, but like it's hard to you know knock on wood. Yay, yeah. So that's awesome. Uh what what I noticed for myself in a lot of patients is that I mean, this is a physical disease, but it there's all so much aspects to it that you kind of have to tackle like it from all angles. And when I've gone into remission and I'm doing my best, not only have I done some good protocols that I think would improve my physical health, but I'm usually working on my mental health, my emotional health, and my spiritual health all at the same time. So um I can see why so many patients like will come to me saying that they think that there's a huge spiritual aspect to this because I feel it and um can feel the difference in my body regulation and my nervous system when I know and feel like okay, I'm on I'm headed in the right direction, I'm on play, I'm on point, I'm doing my work that I need to do here in the world. I feel good about my and safe in my surroundings. So just, I mean, that's not always easy, especially when you're going through this disease. So that has been one of the most challenging parts about this is trying to, you know, realize that that fight or flights response is there to, you know, get me moving, get take action, but not to get stuck there. Um, because that's really where I noticed is when I get stuck in that fear and fight or flight, that's when my body just can't fully recover.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

So thank you for sharing that. That's awesome. I mean, I I I'm excited for our listeners to just, you know, hear stories of hope and and they also have a safe place to go in a clinician if if you know, if if they need one. So um you're a gift. You're a gift. Thank you. I can't thank you enough for championing all of Morgelin's Lyme patients. Um I just, you know, thick heart, thank love. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

And same to you. I just was like so happy and felt grateful that you had invited me on to talk and that you're really giving this, I feel like, the attention that it needs and diving deep into the subject. So I sure hope so.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Yeah, I would love to effect some sort of positive change. You know, if it's one individual or policy change, it would be a gift. But um, but it starts with all of us sharing um our truth and our. Story. And um, so thank you for coming on and being vulnerable and sharing not only professionally, but also personally, your own uh battle with Lyme and Morgelins and environmental exposure. Cause I know for you, mold is a big one for you. So how I escape that, I don't know. Because I also know that typically what's also very common with Morgellins patients is not only the Lyme, but it's also the mycotoxin. So you know, it's so fascinating that I don't have that piece. Um I don't want it, I'm glad, but it but it is interesting. And that we live in Oregon. I mean, you know, it's kind of hard to run from mold. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Uh yeah, no, I I do think the mold is a whole piece of it too. I I will work up patients for chronic inflammatory response syndrome. Um, when I was worked up, my doctor told me that I had the worst genetics of any patient he's seen. So maybe that's why I was a more jalans patient. But um I don't know. I I tried to forget that and try to see that I can still recover despite my uh haplotypes that tell me that I'm the dreaded type.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

But uh you're like, oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Yeah. Um yeah, no, but I do think that there are good things to to learn from like looking at your genetics too.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

So I mean, we could probably do a whole other podcast just subject, but I would love that because I um I know your microbiology background. And so I know that um you could really, I think, do a really good job of highlighting um the kind of parasitic protozoa, you know, kind of break down Lyme and Moragellans, um, you know, kind of more on a granular level, I think would be really interesting as well. I think it would be really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

I love understanding their bio pathways and then how that affects ours and our genetics, so their genetics, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Yeah, I watched, I've watched some other podcasts of yours, and I'm like, oh, here she goes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

So yeah, I still think that we have a lot to learn, and I'm really excited for some of the new technologies too, like um the metagenomics um and some of the next generation sequencing and CRISPR technologies. The students have been playing with that in the Lyme have really impressed me. So I'm really excited to see what the future holds.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Oh, well, now I want to pick your brains some more, but um, we'll save that for another episode. But um, but thank you. Yes, I I would love to have you on um anytime something speaks to you, and um, you know, by all means, feel free to reach out. I I would love to I'd love to do this again. So yes, likewise. Okay, okay. Thank you. Bye. Thank you so much. All right, you have a lovely day. You too. Thank you so much for tuning in to What the Morgux podcast. I'm beyond grateful that you're here, and thank you so much for being a part of the special community. To learn more, you can visit us at whatthemorgues.com and you can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at WhatThemorgues podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in.