Ep 8. Greif and Losing Legends

In one of their most personal episodes yet, Bobby and Ian go deep on grief — what it looks like, how it shows up unexpectedly, and why men often struggle to name it. Bobby shares how picking up hunting again after years away brought a wave of unexpected grief for his late father, a Utah outdoorsman who first put a rifle in his hands. Ian opens up about losing Keith — his recovery mentor and the best deer hunter he ever knew — and the moment a peanut butter jar screwed to a tree nearly brought him to his knees on the day he killed the biggest buck of his life.

Together they explore the many faces of grief: the anger, the recklessness, the numbness, and the guilt. Ian speaks candidly about losing friends to addiction and how grief in recovery is relentless and cumulative. Bobby connects the dots between emotional numbness and unprocessed loss — and why the woods may be one of the few places men actually let themselves feel it.

This episode won't hand you a roadmap. But it will remind you that grief doesn't have to mean letting go — you can carry your legends with you.

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Transcript

0:02

Welcome to Out on the Limb with the Limb Junkies, recovery, resilience, and the outdoors. We believe in the natural world as a therapy like no other, and we're here to prove it. Whether you're tethered in a hunting saddle, pitching lures into deep cover or set up on a roosted gobbler, you're in the right place. This is a space for anyone who's found healing in the woods, forging fishing, hunting, and all of those wild things in between. We're building something here and we want you with us, so let's gear up and get into it.

Bobby 0:33

Hey everybody. Welcome back. in this episode we are gonna get a little bit heavy, Ian and I have talked a lot recently about, friends and family and loved ones that have come and gone, and it brought up the topic of, grief and the process of grieving and what it feels like to grieve and in particular how men deal with grief in their life. And one of the things that came up for me was, the first time grief showed up unexpectedly after I thought I'd sort of had it resolved.

Ian 1:03

So not only are we gonna speak about grief, but we're also gonna touch on the idea of losing people that were legends in our own mind. I think most hunters, most outdoors men have some sort of mentor in their life. Some sort of person that was their inspiration or showed them the ropes and, It's a whole new ball game when you encounter the grief of losing that type of figure. So like Bob mentioned, it is gonna be a little bit of a heavier episode.

Bobby 1:29

typically

Ian 1:30

to talk about, but it's stuff worth talking about, stuff that we want to tackle, and specifically talking about the people that heavily influence our lives in the outdoors.

Bobby 1:39

I think recently it crept up on me. the idea of grief, it kind of showed up unexpectedly. when I think about it, it was when I started collecting hunting stories of my own that came from hunting a little bit more often. things like picking up the compound bow and starting to use a climber. started Turkey hunting with you. I started harvesting deer and Turkey regularly and including some pretty nice

Ian 2:00

bucks.

Bobby 2:01

and it was really great to be able to share some of that with you and with my family, my mom especially. But what really surprised me was how much I wish that my dad was around. Hmm. And how much I wish that my dad was around to see the pictures and hear the stories and that I could discuss those kinds of things with him and debrief. and, initially it was really kind of sad, and I felt sad and it kind of made me withdraw a little bit, like, you know, get over it. my mom and my dad divorced when I was young. He wasn't around for most of my life, except for a few years around high school. and the time that we did spend together was spent hunting or fishing. So I learned to fish and hunt for my dad and my family hunted together every season. and for many years it was a family tradition. all my uncles and cousins, were and are excellent outdoorsmen. each and every one of them are outstanding, big game hunters, and specialists in outdoor adventures.

Ian 2:58

what state was this in?

Bobby 2:59

This was in Utah born and raised there up until the point when I was about 10 years old when we first moved here. So between the time I was born and between the time I was 10, the times I would see my old man would be the times that he would take us fishing and the times that we would be going to hunt camp, which was pretty cool. And you know, we walk around with BB guns and hunt camp when you just learn the camp culture.

Ian 3:19

Yeah.

Bobby 3:20

And everybody's got the camper door open and you know, grandma's got a pot of stew on, or you know, an aunt or an uncle right across the way, drinking some whiskey and being silly and everybody's running around in the fire and the cousins are all together. And it was one of the very few times that I got to spend with some of my cousins.

Ian 3:34

and that's big sky country. That's not.

Bobby 3:37

Suburban Virginia hunting? No, man. this was the base, this was western style hunting, walking for long distances and glassing, the other opposite ridge all afternoon, waiting for an opportunity and if you get one, you make a plan and try to sneak up on 'em. and that's basically how I learn to hunt. But, so it's a core aspect of my personal heritage. once I left, at about 10 years old and moved here, I didn't hunt for many years. I didn't pick it up again until later in life. when I did, I picked it up through, upland hunting with bird dogs and, gruse hunting and stuff like that. So I didn't really do a lot of deer hunting or Turkey hunting. While he was alive, I was able to share those kind of moments with him and I sent him some pictures of preserve hunts and me working dogs and things like that. But it wasn't the same as when deer hunting, which was one of the big things that we did together. but for me, it keeps me connected to my dad in a way that the time we had together on Earth could not. So that's why I fish and hunt and I continue to fish and hunt. That's why I'd love to pass it on to the kids and have them pick it up. but the grief that I felt was really kind of strange. I didn't expect it to be that intense. My dad had been passed away for quite a while and it was surprising to me that I'd felt as strongly as I did. I almost missed, the opportunities that would be able to have to talk to him in the future as much as it was, at the moment.

Ian 4:52

For is grief for you, like really hard? When you sit back and you think about people that you've lost, or pets you've lost, like is grief something that you struggle with? Is grief something you feel that you handle an appropriate way? Like how would you describe that? I

Bobby 5:09

don't think that I've, up until the recently been really conscious of how I react to grief, and I don't think I've ever approached it purposely. But I think for me, grief has always sort of manifested in a way that's, angry and frustrated, you know?

Ian 5:23

is this something that you allow yourself to process in its own way? Is it something that you stuff back in a corner of your mind and don't deal with?

Bobby 5:31

When I realize that it's, you know, that's an issue, and I'm able to sort of process it and recognize that what's, why I'm feeling the way I am, why I'm angry or why I'm irritable is because I'm actually sad or I'm grieving and that's how I'm expressing it. so like I said in the moment, it could tend to make me feel angry and frustrated. that super fast rush of sadness. On top of that fight to stay composed in front of others, because especially as you're a guy, you really wanna always stay composed. Yeah. So if I was ever in a situation where I was remembered of those things and I got emotional insight about something I'd seen, or something I saw or smelled or whatever,

Ian 6:06

any sort of

Bobby 6:07

Yeah. the other downside for me is, is that, that angry grief kind of thing makes me really impulsive. And here's a good example of the impulse control. so when my pops passed away, my stepdad.

Ian 6:18

stepdad,

Bobby 6:20

The day of his funeral, a bunch of my homies came out to lend support, not only at the funeral, but we got back to my place to celebrate, pop's life. I was already supercharged from the get go, you know, and as you can expect, I got to drinking pretty quick when we got home and I took the four-wheeler out. I was driving about as reckless as I could around this little tinker property, like ripping ass around the backyard. trying to come around the driveway as fast as possible. you know, I came tearing into the backyard right by the deck and I hit the hand brake late, and then I missed the brake pedal.

Ian 6:50

pedal.

Bobby 6:51

it was an older a TV with this foot pedal and the brakes were kind of shitty already at that paint. So I ended up flipping the four-wheeler about eight feet from the deck, and I hit the ground hard, like really hard, and rolled the four-wheeler and everybody on the deck was like, oh my God. when I got up, I realized that it crushed my collarbone. and I kind of sucked it up a little bit and tried to play it off. My buddy Bob came down and took care of the four-wheeler and I kind of walked up onto the deck, and it was pretty much a shit show from there, I ended up getting dropped off at the hospital and I spent the night in the ER getting an x-ray, a sling, and then I took an Uber home. before this episode, knowing that we were gonna talk about grief, I thought about it. And, and in retrospect I realized, I was loaded with enough conflicting emotion to blow a dumpster apart. and I was desperate to feel something. Like relief. I just ended up being a real spectacle. I still grapple with the impulse control. for me, alcohol always makes it worse. So these days, as you probably have realized by now, I don't drink all that much. So for me, grief, manifests in anger. I get irritable, I cope with it, with, by having impulse control problems, just wanting relief.

Ian 7:57

Yeah. For me, man, grief is,

Bobby 8:00

Okay.

Ian 8:01

Yeah. Again, to reference us speaking about this episode before we started recording, I still qualify myself as pretty hollow emotionally. meaning I don't really like the peaks and valleys of my emotions aren't really there. I'm usually pretty even keel. And today it's a more healthy, version of that, meaning for years I just buried all my emotions and was hiding them.

Bobby 8:24

And

Ian 8:24

then I might blow up in private or sink real deep in private, but today it's more of an even keel as far as I regulate my emotions in a much more healthy manner than I did in the past. But grief or losing somebody is the one thing that I can't regulate. I'm an absolute mess. And it usually lasts for weeks or even a month of just someone, someone passes away. I lose a pet or, even somebody that like, I'm not super close with. You know, somebody in my life passes, I'm a wreck when I hear about it, I'm a wreck. A couple weeks go by, I'm a wreck. You know, the day of the funeral or some sort of celebration of life, I'm a wreck. Randomly. Two weeks later I'm a wreck. That's probably healthy. I would imagine it's probably healthy to feel those kinds of emotions and feel loss and sadness. but it's the one thing that I have not been able to like, keep under wraps, you know what I mean? I didn't get emotional at the birth of my children. I didn't get emotional at my wedding. Like I'm just, I'm a very even keel kind of guy, but when it comes to loss, man, I just, ugh, it all goes out the window and I just, I come unglued. So, I also, lost somebody very close to me in the outdoor world and. I remember going through a period of, of almost disbelief because this person in my eyes was, you know, a legend. You know, this person was a legend in my eyes and almost invincible. And so to me, it took me a while to kind of really understand that this was real. Like this, this person is gone. but I remember the grief coming in stages. And at that point in my life, I had some recovery under my belt and I had started the process of allowing myself to feel emotions and not try to deaden them by using or having impulsive buys or impulsive actions, you know, whatever sort of means I could to change the way I feel in the moment. So, I remember it coming in cycles, but, it definitely is sneaky in my eyes. Grief, it pops up when you least expect it.

Bobby 10:27

Actually surprised to hear you say that and only because I've always known you'd be very controlled emotionally. You know, you keep yourself well in check. I've never seen you really have like an angry outburst, seen you frustrated a few times. I've seen you sad Only once. Once. The whole time we've been together. The whole time we've been buds. I've only seen you

Ian 10:44

and, and let me, let me touch on that moment real quick because you are the only person that saw me like that. When I went through my divorce, you were the only person that saw me like

Bobby 10:57

broken. Isn't that kind of, it's just so sobering to realize that. I know it's weird. It is like, it's like Ian's human after all. Yeah. In a weird sort of way, but respectfully. And one of the things that I think was the coolest thing about you when we first started hunting together was when you took me hunting at his place. Yeah. And you pulled outta your backpack, the little urn that you carried.

Ian 11:20

So the person we're speaking of, I didn't mean to be kind of, anonymous about him, but, uh, my buddy Keith, so my buddy Keith was a fellow recovery brother, a mentor to me in many different aspects. I looked up to him a lot in the recovery world. I really admired his recovery. I don't know that I've ever met somebody at such a low as him. And find recovery and come out on top in such a way that was just so admirable. so there was that sense of mentorship from him and somebody that I really looked up to. But also he was the best deer hunter I've ever met. Still West Virginia. Boy, you know, grew up hunting from an early age. Hunted the mountains in the hills of West Virginia. just diehard hunter. He could care less. How big the deer was. He was harvesting for meat and he had no, there was no shame about it. And I don't think there should be a shame about it, but I know in today's world there's a lot of weight on size of antlers, size of deer, whatever the case may be. And I just didn't know anybody that hunted as hard as he did. So back in those times, in my early recovery, My old sponsor had property in West Virginia and we would go up there and spend weekends there. typically we'd spend, you know, one weekend a month in the summer and spring, but in the fall and the winter, we would go up twice a month to hunt and we'd be up there for, you know, a long three day weekend, four day weekend. Sometimes during like Thanksgiving week we'd go up for like four days at a time, five days at a time. 'cause West Virginia's dear season was different than ours, but, It was like you spoke of, you know, it was camp, and God, you can't beat camp man. Deer

Bobby 13:04

you cannot

Ian 13:04

I wish I still had a deer camp today, but me too. but regardless, you know, Keith was always there and, he was there when I shot my first deer. And our brains were wired the same. I was telling Bob too before we started recording, maybe I kind of like acquired that wiring from him honestly, because it was a situation where I wanted to learn as much as possible and I had already had so much respect for him that I fully took on the whole pad one master analogy, and I just wanted, I wanted to make him proud.

Bobby 13:38

I know exactly what you mean,

Ian 13:39

And he was, I'm telling you, and when it came to Deer Woods, he was the first person in the woods and the last person out. I can't tell you how many times we had four or five guys at camp, and every single guy is back at the camper unloading their gear, getting their camo off, and we hear Keith shoot like he. Did not get down before shooting light was done. he always came back glass. You know what I mean? He just, he was a diehard deer hunter in every aspect of the word, you know? He taught me how to use a climber, taught me how to shoot a bow. So anyways, he was my living legend. I looked up to him in so many ways and when he passed back in 2016, it, it crushed me.

Bobby 14:21

Yeah, crush me. That was only, shortly after my dad passed,

Ian 14:24

And inevitably we met shortly after that.

Bobby 14:27

That's right. Almost like as if those two things combined to drive us together as buds. My dad, the times that I hunted with him were. Were great, but we never really harvested very much. Most of the stuff that he had shot came before I hunted with him when he was a young man. And my mom kind of makes it seem he had with his legendary hunting skill. Yeah. And I always felt like he did, when he would go out, he had this, leather belt. it was for shot shells, but it was for his rifle of cartridges, you know what I mean? even though you'd only need like one or two bullets, man, he had them all around his waist One of the first things I bought as a deer hunter was one of those, you know, he was just so everything that he kind of would look at in the woods and the way that he would see the woods and the things that he would show me. You know the way he would, sometimes he would just whistle and then point somewhere and I would see this amazing thing that he was just quietly watching the whole time. And I remember this one time we were sitting on the stupid slope of this mountain and we'd been sitting there since sun up and it was cold and we were literally watching nothing but a sagebrush hillside.

Ian 15:28

hillside,

Bobby 15:28

And he was explaining to me that in this kind of environment, you always know, have to know what to look for. And he says, if you spot certain kinds of patterns, you'll be able to find out actually where the deer are. And he says, there's actually deer over there on that hillside.

Ian 15:41

Of

Bobby 15:41

they weren't legal to hunt at the time 'cause they were a bunch of dough and I guess it was, you know, buck only or something like that. And he didn't have a dough tag, but he had been sitting there watching four dough sitting in this little draw on the hillside the whole morning waiting for a buck to show up because of their white underside of the tail. And he could see them every time they would readjust themselves and stuff like that. And he'd been watching 'em the whole time waiting for the Buck shop. I had no idea that they ever even were there the whole entire time. Wow. And eventually they got up and started walking off and he just pointed out that they had been there the entire time.

Ian 16:14

blew your mind in

Bobby 16:15

You know what I mean? And it just suddenly he was like this huge, this much larger than life. Yeah. He was like this wilderness expert. Yep. You know? And I just endeavored to be like him as much as possible.. When I circled back, that's one of the first things that I'd remember is, is, is I wanted to model, you know, his style. So legend in my mind.

Ian 16:34

I think anybody that's listening to this right now can think of someone in their life that they view as a legend. Whatever it is, you know, it doesn't have to necessarily be hunting, but someone in their life that they at some point viewed as like this ominous figure that was just larger than life.

Bobby 16:50

Everything was, they just looked forward to hanging out with them. Just wanted to draw wisdom from them

Ian 16:54

and that's part of grief, is when these people are gone, you just sit back and you think how, what you would give just for, you know, a little bit more, one more hunt, whatever the case may be. Yeah. Oh

Bobby 17:07

Oh man, that would be so incredible. You know, I think about that a lot and you know, when I'm hunting this idea of just letting go and forgetting about them and letting them move on, I made a point to bring them along with me. At this point, I talked to him into my inner monologue, like we were talking about when you would carry that little urn with some of Keith's remains in it.

Ian 17:29

Yeah. I don't know that we actually recorded that, but keith's wife, amazing woman that she is, when she had Keith cremated, she wanted me to have some of his ashes, and I got this little camo urn and it's maybe two inches tall by one inch in diameter or something. Just a, a traditional urn, but a very mini version of an urn, and it was in camo. And it came in this little like velvet black pouch, when she shared some of his ashes with me, I carried that urn in that little pouch in my hunting pack every single time. I went in the woods for like two years and it wasn't like I let go of it and I was like, okay, I don't need to carry this anymore. But it was kind of like, it had served its purpose.

Bobby 18:13

and

Ian 18:14

And I now have it on a shelf in the house, but, that was my carry him with me.

Bobby 18:19

And I think that works really well and it kind of allows you to keep them with you in a way that's healthy. like for me, I also keep both of their pictures at the top of the stairs, Pop's pictures is not there right now. So every time I come up the stairs, I'll fist bump my dad's picture and say, what's up to pops? And that's my way of staying connected, you know?

Ian 18:38

so

Bobby 18:38

at first it started coming on fast, these feelings of grief and missing my dad.

Ian 18:42

you know,

Bobby 18:43

Over time, I learned to recognize the feeling and instead of a rush of that uncontrolled emotion, I catch it and I kind of gently guide myself towards sharing those memories and allowing myself to remember all that kind of stuff and, and reaching for the, those good feelings as if they were still here. So it, for me, it adds a lot to the weight of the gratitude, that I feel for both of them. So everyone has lost somebody. But the, those are the two lives that were extra special to me, I think of them both often and fondly. but one thing that I've sort of started come to feel, I guess the older I get is that they're just on the other side, not far from here.

Ian 19:21

Yeah. Am. Well, and I, I know for me personally, like I feel so connected to Keith when I'm outdoors. I open every hunt in the morning. At least I'm not as good about remembering to do it in the evening, but I say a little prayer every morning before the sun comes up and there's a specific moment where after I say my prayer, I then open my eyes and I look to the sky and I talk to Keith. I said, come on bud. You know, come hunt. You know, come join me. I hope, I hope you're proud of me. You know,

Bobby 19:53

that whole mind.

Ian 19:53

So, I still write his initials on every single one of my arrows on the Fletching has his initials on it.

Bobby 20:00

Yeah. the takeaway from this episode is that, you know, grief is. Temporary, even if it's effects are long lasting. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be let go. No. It can simply be choosing to carry them with you in a way that comforts you, but also keeps you connected to them because they really aren't that far away.

Ian 20:20

exactly.

Bobby 20:22

I wanted to ask you a couple questions about, grief and recovery. and that's because you talked a little bit about your feelings being hollow. And I wanted to point out one of the forms of grief, as I've come to understand it, is simply put numbness as grief. if anger is grief, running hot, that numbness is grief, running cold, and it's harder to catch because it doesn't feel like anything. You know, that's the point. Your brain faced with that pain that you said is one of your biggest, that pain of loss you can't process. So it turns the volume down across the board. So not just on sadness on everything like joy and curiosity and sometimes even that pleasure of a hunt. So I wanted to ask you what sort of connections there are between that sort of numbness that hollowness from grief and recovery, and is that often a trigger for people who are in recovery? Grief?

Ian 21:17

Yeah, I mean, any sort of heavy emotional life event can really jeopardize recovery. the core of any sort of addiction is the feelings. You know, it's a feelings disease. And actually that's from Keith. Keith used to always say it's a feelings disease. 'Cause it's true, like at the very core of it, before I ever picked up any sort of drug was I didn't like the way I felt and I wanted to change the way I felt. So yes, specifically when it comes to grief or other major life events, like anything like that can trigger you to want to change the way you feel. It doesn't always necessarily go back to using drugs or alcohol. It could be anything that's destructive and unhealthy because it's hard to stay steadfast in your recovery and steadfast and your practice and your discipline and all this stuff. When, when you are faced with heavy emotions like loss or just big outstanding changes in your life. You lose a job, you lose, a marriage. It hits you in a way that kind of throws everything out the window as far as what you've learned or taught yourself to, to deal with or cope with in a, in a healthy manner. So, yeah, it's, it can be very triggering.

Bobby 22:34

Yeah. For me, I remember recently this last deer season, the woods is often the first thing that breaks through that numbness. And I think it's because nature doesn't let you stay numb. You know, the cold does something, the sounds do something. The gobbler hammering at first light, does something that, that. Discipline routine to keep things in check, can't do. And it's one of those opportunities for you to release those emotions that are so overwhelming. I have the same problem in that, you know, I have a threshold and I try to keep everything at that threshold and I monitor every feeling and every emotion at threat hush. So if something mega comes along that's on top of that already very disciplined threshold, I'm always thrown off by it. And grief is certainly one of those things that's a big trigger for me.

Ian 23:22

Yeah. I mean, the outdoor shocks your system, you know, it acts as as a shock, you know. if you're stuck in a heavy emotion that is above your threshold, like Bob was mentioning,, something about the outdoors kind of shocks you back to, okay,

Bobby 23:37

everything's

Ian 23:38

all right. You've got this, this isn't that big of a deal, or this too will pass, or this can be managed or, or dealt with in a way that's not the end of the world. And there's something about the outdoors that can shock your system into being back to square one, or at least getting back on the right path to get things in the right direction.

Bobby 23:58

Yeah, I agree. People living in grief, particularly grief of is numbness, often don't even realize they're grieving. it took a lot for me to understand personally, what it means to grieve for myself. it's hard to put it into words, you know? sometimes people just lose interest. They go gray, but they're still showing up. They're showing up to work, they're showing up to hunt. but they're showing up kind of hollow, you know, going through the motions. They're present in the body, but not really feeling, I wanna tackle another type of grief, and that's the grief that I grapple with, and that's recklessness as grief. to me, recklessness is grief in a hurry. and the way it makes me feel is it's what happens when the pain I'm feeling is too big to sit with and I start going to look for something or anything that feels like sensation. And that's, you know, fast speed risks.

Ian 24:50

Yep.

Bobby 24:50

Risks in particular are my big adrenal kink. you know, the kind of behavior that looks from the outside, like somebody who doesn't care whether he gets hurt or not. But from the inside, I'm trying to feel something other than what the grief is making me feel. So there's a reason people drink at funerals. There's a reason, guys in particular, in the early days of grief, especially drive too fast, work too hard, pick fights, or take chances. You know, it's because our nervous system is overwhelmed and it's looking for a circuit breaker, something that forces that present moment to matter more than the loss. And when I sat with those words for a minute, it really resonated for me. it's something that makes the body feel alive when everything else, feels like it's been taken away. So for me, grief rather often, appears in the form of recklessness. Desperate to feel, I mean,

Ian 25:39

Yeah. I think a lot of guys, you know, resort to anger as, I don't like the way I'm feeling, or I'm feeling a certain way, so it's gonna present itself with anger or rage or frustration, and I, I don't think that that's very unique for me and you. You know, I think a lot of guys feel like that.

Bobby 25:56

I think so too. One of the things though, about my observations about you, and being your friend, and watching you go through the grief of Keith and watching you sort of as a person and as a hunter,

Ian 26:09

I've

Bobby 26:10

always noticed that you have self-awareness and emotional depth. More so than a lot of guys our age and a lot of guys in our same game. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I think that that's what, makes our friendship a whole lot easier, and that's what gives us the ability to have conversations like this on a podcast. Yeah. Which aren't necessarily straightforward. But one of the things I wonder about you is anger period. I don't know that I've ever seen you angry in a way that. I've never seen you display rage or fly off the handle or any of those things. And that's like one of my go-tos. Oh yeah. So what I want to know is, maybe not just concerning grief, but when you're overwhelmed with emotions, especially grief, how are you keeping the anger in check?

Ian 26:57

first off, you, you should have met me like 15, 20 years ago because I was in a constant state of anger and rage. Through all my teenage years into my early twenties, my go-to display of any emotion was anger and rage. I lived that way for a long time and just constantly angry. there was a lot of holes in my parents'. Walls from me punching holes in the walls from anger. I'm kind of ashamed to say some of 'em were just like sports teams, losses, you know, miss field goal at the end of a game to win it, and I punch a hole in the wall because I was a mess, dude. Like rage and anger. it's so wild for you to say that you haven't seen me like that because I lived like that for so long and I still get like that. But it's a brief moment, I guess it doesn't result in any physical anger or rage, meaning I'm not fighting somebody throwing fists, breaking things, throwing things, Sometimes it does, but very rarely I will get rageful. I will get angry even nowadays, but typically it's I ball up my fist and I just kind of turn red hot. And pace around a little bit, and then it passes. So that is a result of in my early years of recovery, realizing that I cannot be an angry rage person anymore. I can't do that. I live that way for so long, dude. And it was so unproductive, destructive, just miserable. Nobody wanted to be around me. I don't blame him. I was angry and Rachel all the time. But, I don't know that, thinking back over the last, 15 years, I can't think of a situation where grief has caused me to be angry. That's not true., I can't think of a situation where grief has caused me to rage and physically outpouring of rage. I've definitely been angry.

Bobby 28:57

Yeah,

Ian 28:58

You

Bobby 28:58

not to the point of, like,

Ian 28:59

not to the point of like

Bobby 29:00

physical overreaction,

Ian 29:01

yeah. I'm a recovering addict, a lot of my associates or friends through the years of using. I get clean, I start a new way of life, but they don't. I've attended a lot of funerals for addicts who died using, some very close to me, some not very close to me. And I know that through a lot of those, for a lot of those passings and the grief that I felt afterwards was anger because in my mind, they shouldn't have,

Bobby 29:33

it was so preventable.

Ian 29:34

I felt like it should have been me, not them.

Bobby 29:37

Oh, wow.

Ian 29:37

when I sit back and I think about the circle of friends, it was like, how in the hell did I make it out alive? But this person didn't.

Bobby 29:45

Oh, bud.

Ian 29:46

and just feeling very angry at the idea that I felt their death was undeserving. I mean, that's just the grief related anger that I can think of now, because like, your beloved dog die, you don't really feel angry about that. At least I don't, like it didn't display itself in anger.

Bobby 30:08

Deep sadness.

Ian 30:09

Maybe when Keith passed, I didn't feel angry about it, the grief that resulted from like those two situations. What we would call using buddies, guys that I got high with, or people that I got high with. 'cause some of them are women. I, I remember feeling anger because it, it felt undeserving.

Bobby 30:28

I think you touched on a big one, which is guilt and regret. Yeah. As grief. You know what I mean? Yeah. Feeling guilty that you're still around. Yeah. Or regret that you're the one that didn't catch it.

Ian 30:40

But honestly too, man, like Once I got through the grief, I processed the grief, I'm able to use that too to say, okay, there's a reason, from my own life, my own sense of purpose. There's a reason that I made it out alive.

Bobby 30:56

Is this like a spirituality type of thing, or is this just

Ian 30:59

but also the purpose of helping fellow addicts? Like there, there's a reason that I did not succumb to the disease and die, and I find that through the, the grief of losing, fellow addicts that I felt were undeserving of it and you start to question and you feel that guilt or that shame of, you know, man, that should have been me. Given the chance I'd switch spots. Kind of kind of feelings. But once I process the grief and process the feelings associated with those types of passings, I'm able to see like, well, there is a reason that I made it and that reason being so I can essentially share testimony and help other recovering addicts find help that they need so they don't have to die. You know,

Bobby 31:41

you know what's really, eye-opening about that is that the way that you're staying involved and the way that you continue to help and the way that you continue to guide is sort of teaching those people. The same sort of values that you have and that's made you successful in recovery. Yeah, but that got me to thinking about like your support of other people in recovery and how in, in my lifetime grief that I will experience will come primarily from losing family and loved ones. Yeah. And that's not gonna be an everyday thing in most families, in most situations. But in your life, in your involvement with recovery, you are faced with a constant stream. Of grief from your involvement with people that you help through recovery, that you're involved with in recovery. So to me, I wonder to myself, you know, in your circle with such a constant, steady stream of grief. Obviously you would deal with it and be more mature emotionally and maybe not even realize it than I would because you experience it so much more frequently and so much more profoundly than someone who say, loses an aunt and an uncle or a parent who's aged.

Ian 32:54

I hate to say it like this, but you become numb to it, in that world. because yes, addiction is an incurable disease. there's no way to sugarcoat it. I think anybody that listens to this right now can think of somebody in their life that died from addiction, whether it's drugs or alcohol. That's what it is, period. There's no cure for it. You can't go take a pill and cure addiction. You can't go take a pill and just lose the desire to drink yourself to death, like it's not a thing.

Bobby 33:23

So,

Ian 33:24

in recovery, there's no cure. There's a treatment, and the treatment is recovery. the 12 steps and going to meetings and. Fellowship with other covering addicts and leaning on people that you can call when you're feeling down or whatever. So the whole recovery bit. so there's a part of you that accepts that what you're doing is you're dealing with people who, any given day could die.

Bobby 33:49

I think that's a whole different, I mean, to me that's a whole different. Type of grief to have to deal with so frequently and so regular. So when you say that, we talked about numbness of grief, which I think is. I in context for someone like you that numbness is not a result of a mechanism to hide from the grief. It's the result of constant unending grief. So as opposed to numbness as being sort of reaction to hide from the grief, this is simply a result of being faced with a disease where people die.

Ian 34:20

It's almost like preparing yourself for grief

Bobby 34:22

yourself for grief and instead of grieving in a way that's negative, you turn what would normally be grief back into the recovery process to help other people.

Ian 34:30

Yeah, and that's tough too in recovery there's a part of you that doesn't want to connect to other people, to new people. In recovery because you want to keep 'em at a distance. 'cause you don't wanna lose tons of people that you become close with. and I'm telling you, it, it could be, I've experienced losing people in recovery that I was never close with. But I would see them once a week, every week for a year, maybe have a short, small talk conversation with them. But never be like close to them in any sense of the word. But they're They're

Bobby 35:10

an acquaintance. They're

Ian 35:10

an acquaintance, exactly. I see them on a regular basis. I see their face, I hear them talk. And even in that situation. You feel grief, like, man, this person was great, this person was funny, this person was very open, this person was, you know, a calming presence, whatever. Again, it brings you back to, man, I don't feel like they deserved it. You know? I feel like

Bobby 35:36

I,

Ian 35:36

I don't feel a sense of like, it should have been me, not them in that situation, but. You're rooting for 'em. In recovery, you're rooting for everybody. This isn't a competition. It's an all inclusive, we want everybody to get this shit because it, it's deadly if you don't get it. But when it happens, even if you're not really closely connected to those people, there's a grieving process involved in it.

Bobby 35:59

You still feel

Ian 36:00

They were right there, They were on the path to finding lasting recovery and, a life event happened or, something happened or sometimes nothing happened. that's how addiction is. one day you feel like, oh, you know what, I'd really like to get high again. And

Bobby 36:13

And that's the day sometimes.

Ian 36:14

that's it. Is that one last time.

Bobby 36:16

Yep.

Ian 36:18

But yeah, it's almost a numbing feeling. And listen, I kind of sound, like I have zero empathy or zero sensitivity.

Bobby 36:27

No, you don't.

Ian 36:28

But it's just, this is the kind of life that I live, the kind of people that I associate with. and for people out there who don't. No addicts or no addiction. Like this is how it is, this is how serious it is.

Bobby 36:45

I have the advantage of being able to see your face. So while you might have, everything in check and your words are ordered, I can tell by your facial expression how deeply you feel about not just the subject, but

Ian 36:59

we're talking about grief and I feel like it was important to really dive into grief before we moved on to our legends.

Bobby 37:08

I agree, and we've pinned down a lot of different ways that different people grieve. And my way of grieving is very different from your way of grieving, even though we both might find relief and comfort in the wilderness, in our grieving processes.

Ian 37:23

I think it's important too, just to state that, like from my experience, from your experience, there's no handbook on grief. Grief doesn't look the same. Grief is not easy. It's also not hard. Like it presents itself so many different ways.

Bobby 37:37

That's what probably is the most important for the listener. And then it's, it's because naming your kind of grief matters. Yeah. You know what I mean? You as a person who are grieving, need to allow yourself the grace of putting a name to your grief, naming your grief out loud, recognize your grief, and allow it to process.

Ian 37:57

it to process. I think that's the biggest thing I, I think grief that is unprocessed or not allowed to process is dangerous. I do.

Bobby 38:06

I mean, you took us through a journey of grief from, of the perspective of someone who's in a large recovery network where people die frequently, and grief is frequent. I talked a lot about grief from family members who you love. Yeah. Who are legendary in your mind, who have passed away. Yeah. Those are two different areas and different aspects and different avenues to discuss. Yeah. To talk about grief. Yeah.

Ian 38:29

But like, losing a pet, that's a whole nother thing, man., There's no level of unconditional love like a pet. And when you lose that good pet man, oh.

Bobby 38:38

oh,

Ian 38:40

It is gut wrenching.

Bobby 38:41

It's almost worse than

Ian 38:42

a party that's gone forever. It is, is bad. So, and that's just another form of grief. But you know, it's all grief and it all presents itself in ways that can be destructive. And again, the outdoors seems like an avenue to allow yourself to grieve. In a safe environment. Honestly,

Bobby 39:01

we

Ian 39:02

we talked about the toughness of men and how you have to have this appearance, or we talk about, you know, I still need to get up and go to work. I need to keep my shit together. I still got, kids to feed. I got a wife at home. Like, you gotta keep your shit together. When you're out in the woods, you don't really,

Bobby 39:18

not really, you don't, you don't really have to keep your shit together.

Ian 39:20

you don't.

Bobby 39:21

you don't at all. It doesn't care.

Ian 39:23

It's the perfect place.

Bobby 39:24

We talked about some techniques and things like that, and we talked about the value of woods and helping you deal with things like. Rumination and dwelling on things and stuff like that. And I think the mechanism that the woods provides is the same. And that's it is it allows your, that part of your brain that's grieving to rest while that part of your other part of your brain that, activates the senses and tunes into nature for the hunt, takes over and allows you time to rest. Yeah. So,

Ian 39:51

hmm.

Bobby 39:52

it's a luxury. To allow yourself the grace to feel the feelings that you feel, no matter how bad they are. If you've lost someone, or if you're grieving a pet, a loved one, a process, a job, or whatever you're sad about, or whatever you're grieving about, allow yourself the luxury to grieve. You don't have to forget and you don't have to let go. You can carry those loved ones with you and those memories with you to keep comforting you through your grief.

Ian 40:21

That's kind of my big purpose of this, is to really talk about Keith, to have a platform to talk about Keith and have the opportunity to share just how much, he impacted my life. one of the aspects I thought about when we sat down to do this episode was I grew up in a very loving family. My mom and my dad were unbelievable. They did the best they could. I felt very loved and very, supported and the whole nine yards, through my own struggles with addiction and everything that is associated with that, and the feelings of being less than, and the feelings of, not being a part of, and not fitting in and just. Low self-esteem, low self-worth, no purpose, very wandering without any sort of direction in life.

Bobby 41:15

When I

Ian 41:16

got into recovery and I met Keith, he would tell me he was proud of me and for some reason, for the first time in my adult life, I felt that. Like it meant something when he said it, you know? And, and it, this wasn't like, oh, I'm proud of you shooting that deer. It wasn't like that. But in a sense of him being a mentor in recovery and I would share my triumphs or my shortcomings and any sort of struggle that I had in life, like. He would say he's proud of me and it hit me. You know what I mean? Like, he was that guy for me in my life at that time in my life. and so obviously when it came to hunting and him getting me into hunting, it was always a sense of, I want to know that. You know, whatever I'm doing in the hunting world, in the outdoors world, I want to make sure that he would be proud of what I'm doing. And that's from an ethical standpoint, from a legal standpoint, from a moral standpoint, from respect for what we're doing, the game we chase the fish that we're fishing. he instilled this sense in me that, I guess integrity is the best way to put it. You know, doing things for the right reasons when no one's looking. Because I had this idea that I would want whatever I'm doing for Keith to be proud of it, you know? And one of the things that really bums me out about him not being around is Turkey hunting. He wasn't a Turkey hunter. he had shot turkeys before, But he wasn't a Turkey hunter. But man, I wish he was here because I would make him a Turkey hunter and he would love it. He would absolutely eat it up. so it's, a strong sense of like wanting him to still be around, but also wanting to make sure that I'm the type of hunter he would be proud of and wanting to call him up and just debrief, man. I was talking to Bob before we started recording and I can be very long-winded. The podcast is probably a great thing for a guy like me. He appreciated all the little details of honey, all the minute analyzing of hunts, and he loved all that. If I got done with a successful hunt or a failed hunt or just a regular hunt, I would consistently call him and just talk about the hunt top to bottom, and he'd eat it up. And he did the same with me too. You know, he'd call me and tell me exactly I was mourning when or how the hunt went. And, it's something that I have not really found with somebody else. No offense to you, but, you are definitely the closest person to me in that realm. But I can tell that sometimes you're like, all right, and get to the freaking point. But you know something about Keith, man, he just loved every aspect of the outdoors and. Also, another fact is he would eat absolutely anything. I saw this man eat a live lizard before, like a little Newt or something like salamanders. We call him, quite frequently At camp, we would just, Hey, Keith, eat this and he'd eat it. He loved snapping turtle eggs. They were like, he'd call 'em redneck caviar. He would catch snapping turtles and eat their eggs. He had a nuisance beaver on a neighboring property. The neighbor wanted him to shoot. He ate that. He was a West Virginia wild man. He didn't believe in shooting anything you weren't gonna eat. he was a great dude and, he was a hell of a hunter too. he had an accident during his active addiction that, took away his ability to shoot a compound bow. He couldn't close one of his eyes, and I'm sure he probably could have, but he just chose not to because it was too much of a pain in the ass for him. So he was a crossbow hunter and, he was a marksman with that thing. You know what I mean? I can't tell you how many deer I've seen him harvest with that thing. And I, again, his wife is unbelievable woman. I inherited his crossbow when he passed away. I think I've used it once, but I covet that thing like it's a piece of the moon or something, you know what I mean? taught me how to skin a deer, how to process a deer. all of it, he taught me so much in so many different ways that, like we've talked about, it'd be absolutely impossible for me to forget about him. There's just no way I could and it breaks my heart too that he's not around to see my kids grow up My daughter was a year and a half when Keith passed away. So like, my son doesn't know who he was. My daughter definitely doesn't remember who he was. but yeah,, when he passed it, it shook my world in a way that was, it shook the whole recovery world honestly, because he was viewed as that kind of guy that.

Bobby 45:50

that

Ian 45:52

It was kind of larger than life, and his recovery was so solid. He had his struggles in the end. He lived a hard life with a lot of physical pain. We talk about resilience and recovery with life events and stuff. Keith lived in a constant state of pain. Like I think a quarter of his pain would put me down as far as it'd be hard for me to handle. He had lupus real bad. He had bone spurs in his vertebrae. He had arthritis so bad in his hands from being a plumber and hard living for so long that his hands wouldn't work if it was like below 40 degrees out. he had a self-inflicted shotgun wound to the face during his act of addiction that he dealt with metal plates in his face, skin grafting. Like the dude was a tough SOB, you know, he was in a constant state of pain and managed it in a non-narcotic way for as long as he could. And the final two years of his life, he was just. He was beat man. You know,

Bobby 46:53

he was 50

Ian 46:53

when he died and to be 48, 49 years old and feel like he got the body of an 85-year-old like he was, he was in rough shape. so it was a situation where he's fighting off like excruciating physical pain on a daily basis while not being able to medicate for it. So anybody out there who goes to the dentist and gets a tooth pulled and they feel like they need Vicodin, well imagine

Bobby 47:19

a hundred

Ian 47:19

times worse with absolutely nothing but Advil. That's the way he tried to live his life for a long time. And then in the end it was just too much. Keith was, he was one of a kind and anybody that, anybody that knew Keith would, would say that he was a standup guy. Absolutely hilarious. So fun to be around. Oh my God. A wild man, but he lived a hard life and in the end it was just too much.

Bobby 47:49

But

Ian 47:51

again, he's not gone. I carry him with me all the time. when we were talking about like the, the intro of this and kind of looking over the outline and how we wanted to go through it. One of the points was like. What was a moment where grief like snuck up on you? And, for those of you that follow social media with us, I finally got my biggest buck back from the taxidermist after a two and a half year

Bobby 48:16

win.

Ian 48:17

So, needless to say, I am ecstatic. Took way too long, but the biggest deer I've ever harvested, and I can't stop just sitting there staring at 'em on my wall. But regardless, the property that I shot that deer at Keith used to hunt at, and this was a long time ago. This is before the whole baiting rules and stuff in Virginia.

Bobby 48:40

something

Ian 48:40

used to say a West Virginia trick, 'cause he would take a peanut butter jar and he'd cut the bottom off of it and we're talking a big like Jiff. Peanut Butter jar. Yeah.

Bobby 48:50

Tub of Jif.

Ian 48:50

So he would take the red Jif lid off, unscrew it, and he'd take some drywall screws and screw the lid onto the tree, and then he'd cut the bottom of the peanut butter jar and just screw it onto the tree. And it was essentially a peanut butter lick for deer. I don't know how well it worked, honestly. I think probably the squirrels got it before any deer did. But anyways, so he used to hunt this property. And this is a long time later, man. Keith had been passed for probably eight years at this point. And, I reconnected with the guy that owned the property and I started hunting it.

Bobby 49:26

So

Ian 49:26

was in 2023, so I hadn't stepped foot on this property and probably 10 years. Very small residential lot, riverfront though. So it's a, it's a nice small lot, but it's very small. And, I know Keith used to hunt it, and the guy that owns the property used to hunt it, but he doesn't hunt anymore.

Bobby 49:47

So

Ian 49:47

I moved back into the area. I reconnected with that guy and I was like, Hey, man, you know, are you still hunting the property? He's like, no, I can't, my back's really bad off now, so I'm like, do you mind if I, if I hunt it? He's like, yeah, sure. So this is 2023. Mind you, this is like September. And it's not a big lot, you don't gotta do a lot of scouting, but regardless, I didn't have a tree stand on the property or anything, so I went, I decided I'm gonna go in there and hunt it. And this was like, the end of October. So we're coming up on muzzle loader season.

Bobby 50:18

So

Ian 50:18

go down there one day with my climber and it was in the afternoon. It's the first time I had stepped foot on this property in 10 years. So I walk in there with my climber and I'm walking down the hill and a dough comes barreling through the river bottom being chased by a buck, and this buck is grunting the entire way. And it was a very deep grunt, like the deepest grunt I've ever heard. I was like, God damn, that thing sounded like a moose.

Bobby 50:49

So anyways,

Ian 50:49

I scurry down there and I, just pick a tree, get up there on my climber. I think I saw a couple deer the rest of that evening, but. Nothing. Even within bow range. So two weeks goes by and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go back down there., I'm gonna pick a different tree. This was a morning hunt. I go down there foggy as hell. It was so foggy that I could barely tell where the property lines were and stuff like it is just, and Bob's been there. It's not very big. You can't get lost in this place, but the fog was thick. So I'm like, okay. I kind of scurry down in there in the dark and, I just pick a tree. And especially, you walk in the dark. And it's foggy with a headlamp, you're really turned around 'cause the headlamps only shining like three feet in front of you. I find a good tree. I put my climber on, I get up in it. first light, I get two dos barreling down the hill right by me. And 10 minutes later, one of the dos comes running by me again. And a giant buck right behind her ends up being the same deer That I heard and saw chasing this dough,, two weeks prior. So I shoot this deer, biggest deer I've ever shot. And it was crazy too because I shoot him and he almost does like. the, the shape of a question mark. he runs right underneath my tree, does a big loop and piles up literally, almost at the base of my tree. He's like eight yards from me piled up. So I'm, just in awe of what just transpired. And I'm sitting here looking at him. Expired right under my tree. And I'm just like looking at him like, oh my God, that thing's huge. So I really didn't mean to tell a Hunt's story. So I climb down, I go over and I'm looking at him. I'm like, oh my God, this thing's a giant. I know I called Bob 'cause I was like, ah, I'm gonna need some more hands to get this thing outta here, but here's my moment. I get down. I'm really soaking this moment and I've just shot the biggest deer in my life. And I look over and about a hundred yards from this deer is that peanut butter jar still screwed to a tree.

Bobby 52:54

And

Ian 52:55

it was just

Bobby 52:56

I,

Ian 53:00

breaking

Bobby 53:00

talk about him. I mean, he was with you in spirit in every way.

Ian 53:05

just, you know, and

Bobby 53:08

a moment that had to be for you. Oh my gosh, bud. I remember that buck. I remember you calling me and I remember when you saw it the first time, you were like, oh, I remember how excited you were. Yep. And I, I know the exact peanut butter jar that you're talking about. Yeah.

Ian 53:23

So,

Bobby 53:24

and

Ian 53:25

that was just a moment, you know, call it grief, call it whatever. But you know, that was, you know, if I'm thinking of any time where he's in the woods with me, you can't get a better instance. You can't? No.

Bobby 53:39

And overwhelmed with emotion wanting to share with Keith. 100%. Yeah. So

Ian 53:43

I remember sitting down there for a long time. I was probably only like 40 minutes waiting for you to get there. Just fully immersed in the moment. And those feelings and that grief processing, that grief.

Bobby 53:54

You never told anybody that, but that's your private moment. Yeah.

Ian 53:56

Yeah, no. Yep. That's Keith. That's my, that's my legend. I lost him, unfortunately. But he's still a legend in my mind. And, it's hard for me to fathom anybody having more of an impact on my recovery and my hunting life than him.

Bobby 54:14

I feel kind of honored to be. I've known you for a while now, and every season we talk about Keith and you bring Keith up and we haven't hunted at Keith's place in a while, but whenever we go there, I feel very blessed to have heard all of these stories because I feel like it really does a credit to his memory. Yeah. So,

Ian 54:34

and honestly,, his property's kind of a hike for me to get to, and the deer movement through there hit or miss. And that's another thing too, man, Him getting that property and then moving out. There was, his lifelong dream was completed., He had his own property where he could hunt. The neighbor had a pond that he could fish all the time. Like he was in his heaven right there, you know?

Bobby 54:57

Oh, it's my dream. It's one of my

Ian 54:58

and even though it wasn't big, that was his little slice of it and he loved it. So when I do go out there, my expectation doesn't exist.

Bobby 55:06

I

Ian 55:07

out there because it's Keith land. That's it.

Bobby 55:09

It. Well, and being on this episode and talking about Keith is keeping his memory alive and keeping him alive. For sure. I only wish that I had an equal. In the Pantheon of Legends. I mean, my dad and I were, we're close and the only way that we could be close, and he was legendary in my mind as being the root of my, hunting legacy. And the fact that I do that, you know, my pop my stepdad equally. he wasn't a hunter at all. He was a golfer, but his legacy is equally legendary in my mind and his support of my mom and my family. my mom. Is my legend presently. She's the one who I call and tell hunt stories to. Yeah. That's awesome. and then she's the one that is able to tell stories of the legends that I remember 'cause she's the only one left alive. So she's the one that tells me stories of my dad and stories of Jeff that comfort me now. Yeah. But, you know, the grief that I feel for those guys now I think is, is healthy. I take them with me when I'm on trips. I talk to them. I don't let go of them. But it's very different than the depth of the connection that you had with Keith and I'll tell you something that's interesting. I know what you mean about Keith in particular telling you that he was proud of you. Mm-hmm. And I know what that means. I know what it means to feel that. Yeah. I get pretty close when you tell me that you're proud of me. Yeah. Which is interesting because I think that's sort

Ian 56:29

Well,

Bobby 56:29

to your legacy

Ian 56:30

and you have to understand too. I get that from him, Because for me it was such a big deal that I wanna make sure that when I feel that for other people that, that it's said, whether it hits them the way it hit me, I don't know, but I make sure I make an effort to say it.

Bobby 56:48

It always used to feel good. When my dad would tell me that he was proud, and I'm not gonna say we need, but we're grateful when, an elder or a legend tells us that they're proud of us. Yep. It makes us feel good and it lifts us up. Yep. So if you're proud of somebody, tell 'em you're proud

Ian 57:05

of us. Absolutely. Don't let that moment go to waste.

Bobby 57:08

I wanna acknowledge, any of the listeners who are carrying something right now. not advice, just acknowledgement. We see you. We've got some grief support resources that'll be in the episode description. so check it out. the woods keeps your secrets. It carries what you bring in, and sometimes if you're still enough, it gives a little of it back. So take care of yourself out there and take care of each other and we'll see you in the next episode.

Ian 57:35

Any else?

57:36

Thanks for going out on a limb with us. If this episode hit home, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Find us on Instagram, YouTube, and Facebook, and follow along for more. Until next time, keep your powder dry. I.