Where Loyalty Meets Orders: What Do You Owe A Working Dog

A Marine-turned-horseman who found his calling in dogs. An Army combat vet who rebuilt his life through service, detection, and patrol work. We kick off our weekly show with raw stories of loss, sobriety, and the quiet power of training that gives chaos a voice and purpose a path. This is a candid look at why we do the work, how we do it, and what it costs when the stakes are real.

We introduce our backgrounds, from Devildog Canine to Overdrive K9 Detection, and the everyday grind of building reliable service dogs, protection dogs, and detection teams. You’ll hear how obedience and communication underpin behavior change at home, why behavior modification requires more than tips and tricks, and how consistent reps, clarity, and timing turn reactivity into trust. We talk about using GI Bill education, networking with under-resourced agencies, and the value of lifetime support for veterans navigating VA processes, public-access rules, and the emotional load that comes with owning a service dog.

Then we dive into a polarizing case: a K9 is shot while clearing a suspected drug site, and the handler disobeys a direct order to save his partner. We weigh the competing truths—follow the legal order and protect the team, or honor the bond with a dog who has stood between you and harm for years. From long-line choices to stack discipline, from 16-hour maintenance myths to real-world readiness, we break down how training, policy, and leadership can prevent a partner from getting isolated in the first place. We also explore the legal patchwork around whether a K9 is considered an officer and how that shifts the ethics and consequences of a split-second decision.

If you live with a reactive rescue, deploy a patrol dog, or just want a stronger bond with your pet, you’ll take away practical insights on building a common language, setting fair boundaries, and training like it matters—because sometimes it’s the difference between loss and coming home. Subscribe, share with a fellow handler or dog lover, and leave a review telling us: where do you draw the line between duty and devotion?

Transcript

Meet The Hosts

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hey everybody, welcome to the Talk Shit Get Bit Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Parker.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I'm your co-host, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

And this is our new weekly podcast where we talk all things canine. Uh so in this first episode here, we're going to give you a little introduction uh to who I am, who Chris is, uh, and a little teaser about what's going to happen in these weekly episodes.

Michael’s Path To Dog Training

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Um, so again, my name is Michael Parker. I am a Marine Corps veteran. Um, I do not come, did not come from a dog training background. Um after leaving the military where I worked as an aviation mechanic, I transitioned into a cowboy lifestyle working with horses and cattle. Um, however, when I got my service dog back in 2022, um sparked a desire within me to understand dogs better. And really, I found it was an easy transition to canines, uh, very similar, slightly different, um, but very similar to training horses. Uh, so it came quite naturally to me. Uh, absolutely love doing it. Um I like training the pet dogs, um, but I'm more passionate about uh the dogs with behavioral issues, uh, being able to troubleshoot what's going on with those dogs and improve that and help give them and their owner a better life. I'm also a huge advocate for protection dogs. Um they're an absolute blast to train and work with, uh, and completely different bond there uh with those type of dogs. Um but we also do a lot of service dogs, which again, there's there's a lot of feeling of purpose in training those uh because you know that that dog's gonna improve the quality of life um for that new handler. Um that's a little bit uh about me. I've been running Devil Dog Canine uh for almost two years now. Um not quite as of an extensive background as Chris over here. Uh I'll let him share his background.

Chris’s Story And Mission

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Hey guys, I'm Chris. I'm owner of Andy Dog Training and Overdrive Canine Detection. Uh, we're based here in Kentucky. We have a pretty large network. Um so pretty pretty similar to uh Michael. Uh I'm an eight-year army combat vet, uh one tour to Iraq. Came back, uh, had my fair share of complications and troubles that I went through. Um when I finished out my contract in the reserve component, uh I took a career in corrections, did that state and county and a couple different agencies. Uh same did not come from a canine background. My background in dogs started when I lost my brother to a uh substance abuse relapse induced suicide. Uh fought it, looked at it. Uh I've struggled with substance abuse myself in the past. Um very much a shining story that that doesn't define who you are. You can become whatever you need to and whatever you want to to succeed. Uh we come from the ground up. Uh substance abuse against touch basically my entire family that drove me to start overdrive. I purchased my first working dog, went through a short apprenticeship. Um, still very good friends with my my original mentor. No matter how much experience I have, no matter how many certificates I collect and hang on my wall and look fancy, I still call her all the time for advice. So uh very grateful for that relationship. Uh that also led me to the belief that networking to everything. That's actually how me and Michael met. So long story short, we started with um narcotics detection and rehabs in our local community and smaller jails that couldn't afford the canine units. Um here in Kentucky, we run through elected jailers, not the sheriff's department, so it's a separate entity. Sometimes those two elected officials don't get along, and the sheriffs don't want to send their dog to help. So we that's where we step in. Um that turned into explosives detection and extended fires detection, and then extended to security, and it just kind of blew up overnight. I obsessed myself and utilized my uh GI Billing, the BRE program to further my education and continued education while I was doing that education. Um I've accumulated a little over 20 uh certifications. I've got a nationally certified patrol dog, a nationally certified detection for dog for narcotics, and a nationally certified detection dog for explosives. Uh we continue to get out and help wherever we can and found out quick that the professional side of things, no matter how much fun and exciting and adrenaline it gives you and enjoyment, it doesn't really pay the bills at the end of the day. I wanted to do it full time, so I started applying the skills to pet training. Um that kind of took off as well. Uh and we've just been going from there. We don't really fall into a niche, we do it all. We work with shih tzues all the way up to Kangles, we work with behavior modification reactivity all the way up through basic obedience.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

And and man, the the correlation there, like I mean, everything's grounded in obedience. That that's kind of your building block. Uh, so it all kind of just goes hand in hand. Um I didn't I didn't realize the the substance abuse background. Uh I guess we have that in common too. Um definitely was after the military was a huge alcoholic. Um you know, working with horses and now working with dogs gives me keeps me keeps me having that reason to stay sober. Uh but yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Yeah, it was the same. Um, you know, I got my got back home. Um went through a divorce and losing kids, same song and dance for you know, a lot of our our brothers and sisters out there in the service and first responders included. Um

Dogs, Sobriety, And Purpose

SPEAKER_00 6:45

turned to to alcohol to kind of numb the pain and answer and essentially self-medicate. Um since I didn't really fall into the category of of compliance for standard recovery uh ideology. I chose to to kind of handle it myself and for lack of better words, just soldier up, push through it. Um ended up not re-enlisting when the time came around and and discontinued my my law enforcement career. Um end up having you know a beautiful set of children. Uh was sober for years, uh, and I relapsed twice since I've had my dog, which like you said, you you're your service dog. My main dog is also my service dog. Um got my email in through the my provider from the VA. Did my own training, uh, did my own research. We help veterans every day with obtaining theirs, not only just the training of the dog, but uh you know, just explaining the legalities of what you can and can't do, what you can and can't be asked. And if we train their dogs, we we offer a lifetime support, not just for the life of the dog, but the life of the vet. You know, um life is it's important on every front, and it only takes a couple minutes to to answer a phone call to help somebody that may be having some complications. So we want to be able to make sure that that happens. Um the only times that that I relapse um real hard was when I lost my brother. And uh again, later down the road, uh, when I lost my 10-year-old daughter to cancer. Um, that was the kind of the breaking point of addiction, and that was my rock bottom, you know, and it's realistically I drank that night knowing what I was doing, full accountability, knowing that it was wrong, knowing that I was not in control, and with zero intention to get up the next day. Uh you know, if it wasn't for if it wasn't for my dog and the goals of being able to to train and to help not just the community, but you know, families. Families that are struggling with their pets on top of that, uh then I would have become another statistic.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Dude, I I I feel you there. Uh I lost my service dog um back in May um to an unfortunate accident, uh, so very unexpected. And man, you want to talk about there's been some rough things in life. That was that was the hardest. And the reason I'm sitting here having a conversation with you today is because of my other dog, uh, my explosive detection and protection canine. Like if I didn't have her, I I I absolutely would not have made it through that. Um, actually, everybody was very concerned. Um, very concerned I was gonna fall back into alcohol. Um, I didn't. Uh I I did have a beer that night when we laid Levi to rest, um, which everybody was kind of iffy on, but I took like two sips of it and poured the rest in there with him. But that was kind of his and my thing was we'd go to hockey games, I'd get a beer, I took the first sit, he got the second sit. And and that that was so that was the only reason I bought the beer. But I I as much as I wanted to to fall back to that, I I knew better. Um, but I I wanted to be a statistic. Um, but but thanks to Pat and May, dude, like she was right there by my side, and she realized too. And uh if it if it wasn't for her, then yeah, I I wouldn't have been here. So I was grateful that I had her, um, even though that that loss hit really hard. Um but man, shifting to shifting to a little bit lighter uh of a topic. Um you know you kind of mentioned it. I I think we both can agree that for both of us, it's it's that making an impact on

Service Dogs And Lifetime Support

SPEAKER_01 11:20

other people's lives. That's why I love love doing what I do, uh, whether it's a protection dog, a service dog, um even just a pet pet dog, right? It's that creating a positive change in in that family and that dog's life. Um that that's that sense of purpose, gives us that purpose and reason to wake up every morning. Uh again, why we're we decided to do a podcast is hey, you know what? Let's let's touch more people, let's share uh our experiences, um bring in others uh to to share their experiences, whether law enforcement, military, or whatever, um to share their expertise. Uh, and and hopefully uh all anybody that's listening to this is able to take something away, uh, whether it's just for life or for improving the quality of your relationship with your canine. And and that's a a lot of what working with dogs is is our relationship with the dog. And that was one of the things I noticed early on in working with dogs was a lot of people didn't have a great, don't have a great relationship with their dog. And it's it's not because they don't want that, they just don't understand how to get that uh better relationship. And so that's kind of our aim here is uh to help you uh do better um with your dog uh as far as communicating and building that relationship. Um so that's a lot of those topics we'll talk about, along with getting lived experience from ourselves and and other experts and and canine handlers. Um but uh for for this episode, it's just just kind of a teaser to ease you guys into what we're gonna talk about. Um so I I did come across an article earlier today on on Facebook. Unfortunately, we all know how Facebook works. You can't ever find what you saw again. Um but basically the gist uh of that story, and kind of want to get your take on on the situation and and share how I I viewed it. Um but the gist of the story is is this law enforcement officer um who is a canine handler, and him and his canine got sent out uh along with with the a squad of officers to investigate a warehouse that they believed was um manufacturing drugs. And so, of course, the canine handler and his canine go in first, and the dog is doing what he does, you know, clearing room from room to room. Uh according to the officer, he he went through the past the pack the first two doors, uh, no indications, gets to the third one and starts alerting. Um before they can make it there, the dog gets shot and is bleeding out on the floor,

Grief, Relapse, And Resilience

SPEAKER_01 14:30

can't get up, can't get back to him. And this officer requested um to go get his dog, and at which point his sergeant told him, No, we need to clear our way there first. Um, and he said, I'm going to get my dog. And the sergeant said, That's a direct order. You're not going to do that. Um, this officer disregarded that direct order, got his dog, saved his dog, um, but now is uh facing the possibility of get losing his gun and badge. Um and, you know, he he believes he did the right thing. Um, but part of it was asking, did I do the right thing? Should I have done something different? So I thought, you know, it really sparked me to thinking what I would do in that situation. And and Chris, I'm sure you have great insights on that as well. Um, I'll pass it to you. Let you let you give your your thoughts and stuff on that.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah, so I mean, I can I can see both sides of it realistically coming from the brotherhood mentality and that family bond of not just the military, not just, you know, a law enforcement capacity, but also a canine capacity. All of my experience with my canine's been been civilian, but I'm gonna tell you right now, you know, Cooley, my service dog, he's my patrol dog. So he does apprehension tracking, uh, article search and narcotics detection. He goes everywhere with me. We do everything. It doesn't matter. Yeah, you know, I drive back and forth to Georgia, I go to Arizona, I go to New York, New Jersey. It doesn't matter. As a matter of fact, not too long ago, I had to drive and deliver a dog up in like Rhode Island. I had to drive through two states and I wasn't allowed to carry my weapons, so it's no longer in Leosa. Guess what? I was completely comfortable, even with all of my issues, my conditions, I was completely comfortable because I had him with me. I knew I was safe. So I get the side of nobody left behind, that's my partner, that's my best friend. Especially if it's uh, you know, we don't we don't know what county, what size the county was. There's a lot of logistical information that's missing. And especially if it was a smaller department or a smaller area, there may be a lot of nights that that was his only backup, or that was his only partner. So 12, 14, 16 hour shifts, that's the only person you have. Um, so that just intensifies that at the same time. Direct order should be followed if legal. And it was a legal order, and from someone who was disassociated from that bond and that connection, from a leadership standpoint, I understand it. No, your human life is not equal to or record less value than that animal's life. It's greater than. So it's not worth risking your life or the life of your team members to go in there and do this. Let's do it right, let's work up there. Could it have cost a dog's life? Potentially. Could he have still saved the dog's life and not been in trouble, not disobeyed an order? Potentially. Life's full of the what ifs, you know. So we have to look at the whole situation, but I think it's a good question. You know, what what would you do in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, and I I did forget uh a detail. I just remembered another detail from it. It was a seven-year-old GSD, German

Why Impact Drives Our Work

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Shepherd, um, that had been his partner for over five years at that point. So there is a closeness and a bond that you have with that canine, especially when in reality, you've been through some shit. Um you you've done some things. Um, and I completely understand why he he did what he did to just just like you, Chris. Um, but I, you know, the the military side of me says an order's an order. But also there's that human side of me that says, would I have followed that order? Um, but like I I already mentioned my canine, um, Padme. Um she she's my you know my ride or die too. Like if I'm in a sketchy situation, I'm taking her some places, like for example, I live in Illinois, so gun laws are ridiculous up here, right? Um she's my only sense of safety sometimes. Um but I I also trust her with my life. Um, but then again, when I got her and I began training her for her job. Sounds harsh to say this, but she's a tool. Um her her purpose is to find bombs so that I don't have like I don't, and to go take out threats before they take me out. So there's always that risk, and knowing that risk that at any time she could die, um, especially when we're working. And I guess I didn't mention this, but I I do help recover missing and exploited women and children, um, which sometimes means coming face to face with some really bad dudes. Um there is always that possibility that something could happen to her. And and to your point, at the end of the day, it's if something happens to her, well, that's what your purpose was, right? Given the opportunity, I'm going to try to save you and prevent you from getting hurt. Um, but if it's it's you or me, that's the entire

Teaser Of Topics And Goals

SPEAKER_01 20:35

point of why you're here. I that's kind of like uh almost sounds like I don't care, but I would do anything for that dog, right? But also she has a job to do just like myself. And again, I think about it like from the from like you said, like the military perspective, like we all have a job to do. Um if one of my if I was in combat and one of my brothers got hit, I'm gonna want to go save them. But if it's gonna put mean that I'm gonna become a casualty and put somebody else's life in danger too, you you you've got to think things through and not act on emotion. And then and I've I feel like he he acted on emotion in that versus thinking rationally. And I completely understand where where the leadership came from, too, right? Like that sergeant who's probably thinking less emotionally in that situation. He realized, well, hey, somebody just shot your dog. If you go in there, now you potentially become a casualty too. And now we have to come not get one officer down. We've got to get two officers that are down, and that's a worse situation. Fortunately, in that situation, that's not what happened. But I imagine that's what the the sergeant. Was thinking about was we haven't cleared up there. We can't give you that support. You could very easily become a casualty too. And now we have a bigger mess. Um, and when you're functioning as a team, you got to think about the team as a whole. Uh,

The K9 Shot Dilemma Setup

SPEAKER_01 22:15

yeah, you don't want to see one of your buddies go down or your canine go down. Um, but if going to recover that is going to put you and the rest of your team at risk, you got to do what's best for the team.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Right. Do we know? Uh, do you remember from that article if this was a like a standard movement, um, or if this was like uh a taxable team that did this like SWAT team or response team?

SPEAKER_01 22:42

It it didn't really say it, just said squat. Okay. Um, so I would imagine with it being like they're going in thinking it's a a uh a drug manufacturing facility. I I would assume, which I we know what they say about assuming. Um I would assume it was probably a tactical response team or a SWAT team, but I it it didn't give those details. I wish there was we knew a little bit more, uh, but I couldn't find an article on it yet.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Um that's uh that's the perks and joys of the media. They're always just gonna touch the surface with what's intriguing and keep you on there and not really let you know the rest of what you need to know to make a sound and independent decision.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

But uh well, so this this was from appeared to be from the officer directly. Um, but um he didn't have any of that information on there. I just went off the information that he had put out. So right.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

The reason I asked is um the accepted field standard for law enforcement canines for their maintenance training is yeah, 16 hours a month, which is not anywhere near what it takes to upkeep a dog. You know that, I know that. You know, I run I've got several dope dogs and an explosive dog that I have to run on over every day, every other day. Easy, and then one of them on top of that, I've got to keep fresh on tracking and control on top of that. So it's a very very busy and extensive process, uh, especially if you want to stay ahead of the curve. So the the thing that has me wondering is not

Orders, Bonds, And Risk

SPEAKER_00 24:30

completely what we would have done. I think we both know what we would have done. Um you know, at the end of the day, following a directive, following an order or not, he should have. We both agree on that. But we also take into consideration of we've walked modeling issues um essentially, not in the same capacity, but in singular terms, and we also still have to be able to go to sleep at night. So that's what comes down to making that decision. Uh once I break that down and make that determination, I started looking at the the variables continue that training. Why were they so far behind the dog? Why was the dog allowed to get so far ahead? Which don't get me wrong, I mean, situations happen, especially if there's pop shots through the door. You can't avoid that. Was the dog active alerting? Did he s did he s detect the person? Was it a patrol dog or a single purpose dog? There's a lot of variables that go into it. And I don't think that any of them affect the choice or decision morally or emotionally that we would make. But I do think that they're important to consider on the professional side of things when it comes from a leadership or a reprimand role.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah. And and yeah, to that point, like I've gone to canine, like law enforcement canine schools, uh, which we were talking about before we came on on the air. And I don't think there's like a universal standard that's uh for for that, which makes things difficult because you don't know what their policies and procedures are, uh, especially without knowing that department. Um, but I mean, I ran situations generally, my dog stays close, but you know, in some of those schools, they have you send the dog in and clear the building, and you're way back behind. Um, because clearly the dog can clear a building faster than I can. Um and we've done I've done the squad training, but every time I've done the squad training with the canine, we've cleared with the canine like to the rear until we get towards where the bad guys are, right? And then you deploy the canine, and it's no more than you know, two doors down. Um so yeah, uh which the the math really kind of didn't math for me, right? Like, okay, how far apart are these doors? If you said he got to the third door, well, where's your team? Are they still stacked up on the entry door? Well, why if he's cleared through those first two doors, why aren't you clearing up with them? And I was I I kind of was wondering if he was even on lead. Um, because if he was on lead, then that wouldn't have been an issue either, right? You could have dragged it, dragged him back to you on the lead. Um so yeah, I'm like there, I I I think they're that department needs to re um revamp the way they do their canines, uh, use that as a learning opportunity. But yeah, to your point, that's all stuff that they should consider. You shouldn't just take his his gun and badge. Let's do some research and and and dig into that before you take his badge. Um, but to your point, at the end of the night or the end of the day, we've got to be able to sleep at night. Um

Training Standards And Team Tactics

SPEAKER_01 28:11

if saving your dog's life means more than losing your gun and badge, then you did the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

So Right, absolutely. And yeah, that's that's kind of why I asked if it was uh you know, do we know if this is a team that does this consistently? Because it doesn't sound like a an incident or a mistake that a team that would be familiar or thoroughly prepared for this situation would happen. A team a team that was gonna go in as a result of an investigation and using that as their probable cause, using that for their warrant, using that for their you know, the process to go in in the first place, they're gonna review the intel and the information that they had on that, which I've seen situations and I've worked situations in a training environment um that sometimes the dog is on a long line and sometimes the dog's not. You know, depending on the the building, depending on the situation. Um but even at that point it just I I agree with you. They should have there's a lot that goes through here, and it's not the officer has to be held accountable based on the information available from the investigation, which I'm sure is why there was so little information for that. It's probably still an ongoing information investigation for the disregard of an order. But at the same time, uh the reason that that dog got hurt in the first place wasn't just the handler's fault. You go in as a team, you work as a team. You know, if in any capacity that we work, if somebody gets hurt, everybody goes to the safety meeting. Everybody, you know, one of my staff here at the kennels gets bit. Guess what? Everybody gets to uh refresh around canine by the way. And it it's just a blanket protector. So the team's responsible at the end of the day. You work as a unit, you move as a unit, you win as a unit, or you fail as a unit.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Right. And and and and to that, yeah, like there that that canine is not a tool, which was just kind of something that he alluded to in there. Like, that's not just a dog, that's my partner. And really, that is your partner. Um that's a like you said, that's a component of that team. And so you I I wouldn't you wouldn't leave one of your human teammates high and dry, or you shouldn't. So why are you gonna leave your canine high and dry like that? Um I it's one of the I I really hope to see the the the findings and outcomes on it and and determine what actually happened there. Um yes, he should have followed that order, but I don't blame him because he can sleep at at peace at night knowing that he saved his dog's life. But also you can't put all that blame

Policy Gaps And Accountability

SPEAKER_01 31:20

on that officer. Um, there was things that that unit clearly did not execute well on, and that needs to be addressed too. Do I think in that situation that's something to take his gun and badge over? Probably not, maybe reprimand him and say, hey, dude, you've got to follow orders. Um but that should be that. Um yeah, that that's that'd be an interesting one. I'm gonna be looking for for a published finding or uh report from that department outlining that. Um which he did say in his thing that he was putting that out there before they released the department released their side of the story um to clear the air. Um, so I'm curious to hear what what the department would has to say, um, which I'm sure I'll see it when it comes up. I'll find it.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Yeah, yeah, and I I would agree with that. And that's kind of but like you said, uh like you kind of noted too, we we spoke a little bit about it before we came on there. And that's why I asked what state it took place in, because some states canine officers are considered officers and some states they're not. And uh that's a that's a pretty heavy variable as well, because yeah, everything works in fun and exciting ways, as we've seen time and time again repeated over and over. Um if you're successful at something and it's deemed as a heroic action, you know, disregarding that may be rewarded. But in this case, it may be reprimanded. So I think that also has a fact in a variable of play. If that canine was regarded and protected legally under the law as a peace officer in that county, in that state, then what he did was no different than saving another officer's life versus just the tool, like you say. It's not just a tool to him at the end of the day. So I'm curious to see how the department views that when what the law and legislate uh legislature says on that, um, to see what state it came from. But yeah, it'll be interesting, and and we'll have to we'll have to reach back and touch on that one again once it gets finalized.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Yeah, yeah. Once we find the the findings and we can look at the department's report on that, we'll definitely re-revisit this and talk about it some more. Um but I I absolutely don't fault the uh the officer for for making the decisions that he made. Um I again, every life's about decisions, and you've got to make a choice. And he made the the choice that he thought was the right choice, whether the department

Law, Status, And Consequences

SPEAKER_01 34:10

sees that as right or or not. Well, that's that's the consequences. Uh and we got to live with the consequences of what we do, uh whether good or bad. Um and if the the consequences of saving your dog outweigh the consequences of losing your gun and badge, then you win at the end of the day. Um if not, well then that's that's something different. Um but yeah. So I guess this I guess we covered that pretty thoroughly. Um this is the kind of stuff we'll be be talking about, uh, talking about things about um news, you know, canine related stuff in the news, um interviewing uh handlers, um diving into our experience and and sharing how to have a better relationship, whether it's it's a working canine or or just your pet fluffy, you know. Um that's that's the whole premise of this is just sharing knowledge and uh improving our quality of life with our canines. Um but on that note, we're gonna wrap this up. Thank you guys for tuning in. We look forward to seeing you next week. Um we'll actually probably be a couple weeks. Uh this is just your your test sampler, uh, put it out there for you guys, give you a little uh taste of what we're gonna be talking about. Uh but again, my name is Michael.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Michael France.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Thanks for joining us.