Service Dogs For Veterans: When A Dog Becomes A Lifeline

A trained dog can change the shape of a day—and sometimes it saves a life. We sit down with Joe Gionti from K9 Heroes for Heroes to explore how service dogs help veterans and first responders regain freedom, confidence, and control in places that once felt impossible: gun ranges, grocery aisles, airports, and crowded events. We go past the highlight reel into the work it takes to build a reliable partner, from deep pressure therapy and behavior interruption to blocking, covering, and quiet alerts that pull someone back from a spiral.

We talk training with teeth: mapping a handler’s daily life so the dog is proofed for real scenarios, not just a checklist. Tools like e-collars and prongs are reframed as communication, layered over foundation obedience to keep clarity and safety first. We dig into ADA rights and boundaries—what staff can ask, when access can be denied, and how calm advocacy keeps everyone safer. You’ll hear why vests aren’t legally required, why some states recognize “service dogs in training,” and how equipment-savvy dogs stay focused with or without gear.

The stories are raw and real. A nudge in a church pew stops a flashback. A center position at checkout eases hypervigilance. A once “mission-planned” Walmart run becomes a normal errand. We also face the hard part: losing a service dog can rip away hard-won stability, and planning for continuity matters. Finally, we unpack a viral clip of an officer kicking a loose dog near a police K9—what scene safety means, why least force matters, and how handlers must protect their partners.

If you’re a veteran, first responder, or supporter who cares about responsible training, public access rights, and the life-changing impact of a well-matched team, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more handlers and dogs find each other.

Transcript

Meet Joe And K9 Heroes For Heroes

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Talk Shit Get Bit podcast. I'm your host, Michael Parker.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Yeah, I'm your co-host, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

And today we have a special guest joining us. We have Joe Gianti from K9 Heroes for Heroes. I'm gonna let him introduce himself and tell us a little bit about what he does. But our topic for today we're gonna talk about service dogs and especially how service dogs are beneficial for veterans. But Joe, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Pleasure to have you here, man.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

It's a blessing to be here with you guys. And first and foremost, thank you for your service. As a civilian, you know, I do this out of love and respect for you guys. So KN Heroes for Heroes, we are a nonprofit. We train service dogs for veterans and first responders at no cost to them. And to be able to do this, to be able to stand with individuals like yourselves and the first responder community means everything to myself and our entire team. We've got veterans and civilians on the board who are daily just trying to bring better awareness to service dogs and to help out the better in the first responder community. So just kind of quickly started K9 Heroes for Heroes. I got to a point in my life where I was too old to serve in any capacity, but grew up in that atmosphere. I like to tell the story. I had a great-grandfather who came over from Sicily, joined the American Army, went to World War I, then became a citizen. All his sons were World War II. My dad was in between Korea and Vietnam, and I did spend some time at the Virginia Military Institute, and a lot of my brother rats and classmates ended up going to the service. Life just took me in a different direction. And I wanted to figure out how to give back. How to give back to a country and individuals who have given so much. And this is what I came up with. And it is just it's honestly what I believe God told me I'm supposed to be doing. And who am I to argue with him? So, you know, being here with you guys means the world.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Yeah, definitely don't want to argue with the man upstairs. That never ends well, right? So no, it doesn't. So, how how long have you been running K9 Heroes for Heroes?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

So we started in 2021, got incorporated, and then as you can imagine, the first couple years, we're just trying to fundraise and get the name out there. You know, once we got that first dog in the field, then things started to take off. These last couple years and projecting into this year, we're we're seeing some tremendous growth, not just in putting dogs out there, but getting the canine heroes for heroes name out there. We've got events at many local, but we've actually got a big one coming up in Florida in a couple weeks. And we actually have the Navy SEAL Foundation on board for this event. It's called Legends and Heroes Shootout put on by Shell Shop Technologies or an ammo ammo company. So we're going to spend some time on the range and we can get into some of that with what you have to do for a service dog on the range. It's it's pretty neat, you guys being veterans yourselves. I'm sure you have seen dogs out in the real world situation in combat and what you have to do to prepare them for that. But it's it's it's pretty interesting to see the growth we've had in such a short period of time, and the number of dogs that we've got in the field is is growing, and we're projecting even bigger growth coming forward.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

That's awesome. Well, congratulations on on the event in Florida and the growth. God talked talking about guns and and and service dogs, that just reminded me of a funny story with my service dog Levi. I I had the privilege of attending a Memorial Day event in Chicago with a gold star mother friend of mine to honor her son who was killed in Afghanistan

Growth, Events, And Range-Ready Dogs

SPEAKER_02 3:50

in 2010. And started with breakfast, and then they went into the ceremony outs outside and didn't even really think about it. Levi wasn't a around gunfire a lot, right? Like he'd been exposed to it a few times, but they started playing taps and didn't even register in my mind what came next. I mean, I knew, but it I didn't even think about it. And then they sent off the the 21 gun salute, and you know, he was just sleeping under my chair, and poor dude, like he jumped off and like like he was calm about everything, but that that really shook him, and everybody's like, oh my god, poor guy. And I was like, I was like, my bad, dude. I could I I totally should have warned you of what was coming. That's just a funny story that that made me think of.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah. And you know, it's funny when you know there's video of Loki and myself shooting, he's got iPro on, ear pro on, and some people that don't really understand, they think it's just a gimmick. It's it's a photo op. But one of the things we talk about, the veteran or first responder may still want to do the shooting sports, but they need their dog with them. So we need to try to train them for every scenario you can think of. You guys being trainers yourselves, you know that. You're trying to think of every scenario that that dog's gonna see. Obviously, we can't think of all of them, but as many as we can, the better we're gonna be. And it it just works out well. We've got one of our service dogs with a former first responder who's still a shooting instructor. And he, you know, he wants his dog with him. So we've her name's blueberry. A lot of people that are following us know who blueberry is because everybody loves blueberry. And, you know, she's she's good with the with him shooting still. So it's it's been a blessing there.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah, I I think you brought up a uh a great point there, you know, preparing them for those those situations. And I know for us personally, when we train service dogs, I have a questionnaire for and I ask them all, I'm like, listen, I'm gonna know your entire life intimately by the time we we go through this process. And and the whole purpose behind why we do it that way is so I can, for example, if you're you're a shooting instructor, I need to get your dog used to being around firearms. If you're somebody that flies frequently, then I need to have your dog solid for going through airports. So that way, that way when we train the dog, it's there's always a transition and adjustment to getting a service dog, especially if you've never had one before. But our whole mission is to make that transition smoother, right? And you know, I I absolutely love the organization that I got my service dog from. They train phenomenal service dogs. However, Lee and I was the first one to come out of that program. So they were in that learning phase. But for me, I felt like I struggled immediately following because there wasn't a whole lot of education for me in regards to what's life like with a service dog. So that's something that I've incorporated into how we do it is one, making sure that that dog fits as seamlessly into your life, which is what they did. They just didn't necessarily teach me how to handle that. Yeah. Which they do that now, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Uh well, I mean, you think about it, just like with your guys and training dogs, we're learning with every dog we we have. You know, Loki's Loki's the test case. I apologize to him for all the mistakes I've made through the process, but we're gonna constantly learn. And like you're saying, the way you got to train the handler as well. They they're they're not just the dog owner, they're not just the recipient. They're they're almost becoming trainers and handlers themselves, or trainers themselves are obviously handlers, but yeah, it's it's critical that that transition is as seamless as possible. And they our questionnaire is the same way. What is a day in the life of? You know, we were blessed with. I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with Mutz with a mission out of Virginia. When I started Canine Heroes for Heroes, the founder of Mutz with a Mission reached out and said, Hey, here's our application. Change it, make it yours, but why start over? So been really blessed with individuals like yourselves and other trainers and service dog companies that are just out to help each other and and try to put the best quality dogs out there, not quantity. And that's what I tell people. I'm not looking for quantity of dogs, I'm looking for quality of dogs that I put out. You know, prior to go ahead. I'm sorry, Chris.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

No, you've yeah, just it my memory is pretty short, and if I don't get it out, it'll go away. So uh yeah, I'm glad that you said that. We we kind of touched on that on this the show before. That's actually how how me and Mike met is you know, I own overdrive canine detection, he

Training For Real Life, Not Checklists

SPEAKER_01 8:45

owns Devil Dog Canine, you own canine heroes for heroes. So networking is absolutely everything. And what I've discovered in the in the dog field and the canine field, whether it's pet side, working side, it doesn't matter, there's no middle ground. You're either with and support everybody or you're completely against everybody. Usually those are the people who they already know everything. You mentioned earlier, like, hey, we we learn every day. The same. You know, I've got multiple certifications, and there is not a single dog that I interact with I don't learn something from. There's not a single day that goes by that I don't learn something new. And I'm a very firm believer that continued education through experience and books, education, traditional, however you want to accept it, is critical. The moment you quit learning is the moment you stop growing as a person and as an asset to the people that were dedicated and committed to helping. So when when you start looking at service dogs, I don't understand why more organizations, more people don't incorporate those daily life things. Because by by the the definition of a service dog, individually trying to do work or perform tasks, to do work or perform tasks. Okay, a police canine, what do they do? They're trained to work and perform tasks. Military working dogs, same thing, personal protection dogs, same thing. It doesn't matter if you're a governmental agency, a county agency, or a civilian in the working field. At the end of the day, a service dog is a working dog and they should be trained to drive such. When we train police dogs, we train gunfire neutrality. That's something that they're going to experience. So I I love the fact that you take that stuff into consideration because a lot of places don't.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

I like you know, we talk, go ahead, Michael. Okay, we you know, we were talking before we went live that a lot of people know I still have a full-time day job. So I partner with a full service kennel in in our area. And like you were saying, Chris, what I love about them is it's that continuing education, never going back, oh, this is how it was done in the past, this is how we're gonna continue to do it. No, because as the dogs are evolving, we have to evolve alongside them. And you all we all know the saying, you train the dog in front of you. They're not, it's not cookie cutter. Some can take leash pressure, uh the slightest amount of leash pressure, and they're gonna do whatever you want. Some you could almost choke them out and they're gonna be like, is that all you got?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true. So that actually, I just got done working a uh a full service dog that we're training for a civilian tonight, right before we jumped on the air. And that's one of those dogs. It doesn't matter if it's a slip lead, e-collar, prong collar, it does not matter. He will go to the edge of the world over that ball. And if you don't work with him and teach him in his understanding and have that understandable and that that clear communication, he's he's not gonna do it. So it's it's critical to know that. And for the people, there's some some larger kennels that are primary suppliers for police departments, the military, things like that. Again, I'm I'm not gonna name anybody, but they know who they are. So saying that they are very stuck in their ways, and I want to know how it was done 20 years ago. Absolutely. I also want to know how it's done today, and I want to know how it's gonna be done tomorrow. That's why I studied the theory, that's why I go through you know all of the different theories of genetics, the theories of how the how the science behind how the dog works, the optical planes. 20 years ago, they knew for a fact that dogs were colorblind, and that's it's just not true. We can't guarantee that. Me and Michael talked about something similar to that. We can't guarantee it because nobody has sat down and asked a dog. We assume that dogs are colorblind because their focal planes and their eyes during autopsies mimic that of a human being who is colorblind. So we just assume through theory that they're colorblind. We train as if they are when we do scent detection through the play drive. So looking at stuff like that, I think that it's important. You know, 20 years ago, sure, it may have been the best thing in the world, but there's one thing I can promise you. You mentioned evolving. It's not just the dogs that evolve or us that evolve, the world around us evolved. 20 years ago, I can promise you, there's not a single person on the face of this planet that trained dogs to be neutral around that weird little sound the electric cars make when they back up.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Exactly. Yeah, that's a very good point. Yeah, and oh, sorry, dude.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

I was gonna say, and and and and and to that point, you know, about constantly evolving, like as a trainer, you should be constant constantly evolving. Like we I'm not too proud to admit I don't know everything. And the day I say I know everything, somebody slap me in the face because I obviously lost my dang mind. But like we we learn stuff all the time. For example, uh you mentioned e-collars, like you know, the way we use training tools, like that's constantly evolving. The training tools that we use, for example, the way we use training to use e-collars, the way I was taught, the way Laura was taught, it was very similar to how I would use a prong for you know correction until guess what? Another trainer said, Hey, you can use this to communicate with your dog and showed us how to use it to communicate. And guess what? It works so much better that way. And so we said, scrap everything that we're doing, we're gonna do it this way. This makes way more sense. And even I can use the prong to communicate. So constantly evolving, and I I'll tell somebody that when they're we're we're we're bringing them on as staff, you know, and they've got however many years of training experience. I'll be like, this is the way we do things, this is our methodology. And I was like, but hey, look, if if you ever have a question about the way we do things, ask. And if you know another way to do it, I'm all ears. I'm not gonna guarantee that I'm gonna change the way we do things, but honestly, it doesn't hurt because, like you said, you got to train the dog in front of you. Not every dog's the same. Not every, for example, you know, we talk about training, timing, consistency, and motivation. What motivates one dog doesn't motivate another. One might be extremely food driven, one might not give a shit about food, but you you telling it, good boy, good girl, that's the highest praise in the world, too. And so, you know, training that dog in front of you, doing whatever is necessary, or you like you said, a dog that I could I could pop the crap out of its prong collar and it's just gonna look at me like, like you said, like is that all you got? Versus I can use the e-collar at a low level and say, hey, and guess what? It's gonna be, oh, I'm gonna come with you using whatever method you have to, but you have to evolve. You can't be stuck inside a box. This is the one way to do it. It's constantly evolving.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

And that's you know, I'm glad you talked about the tool, you know, the communication tool. That's one of the things I explain to people as well. And I consider myself a novice trainer. I'm blessed with our head trainer, Travis, and some of the other trainers in our pool. Is these are tools of communication. You look at a prong collar, it looks like a medieval torture device. Somebody hears e-collar, they you know, immediately think you're shocking a dog. It's just

Tools As Communication, Not Punishment

SPEAKER_00 16:40

a tool of communication. Anything used improperly can hurt the dog, but if you use it the way it was intended, it's just a tool of communication. And that's what I try to impress upon people when they see that. I'll take Loki's prong collar off and show people that it's it's it's safer than other collars. It's a constant uniform grip around the neck versus a flat collar that's putting it all on the on the throat or on the you know the windpipe. So it's just educating the public even more, which is a blessing when Loki and I are out, and and you'll hear me see Loki a lot because he is the ambassador for canine heroes for heroes and our ambassador for service dogs. Because people that are watching this, you know, I think you'd rather look at Loki than me. He's the face of the business.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah, to your point, yeah, people are scared of prong collars because, like you said, they they do look medieval, they look like they they hurt your dog, which they absolutely can. And the same with with the e-collar, if you're using it inappropriately, absolutely. But when you when you use them correctly, prong collars much gentler on a dog, especially like we'll get dogs in that pull a lot, right? And a dog that pulls a lot, a flat collar or a slip bleash, like you said, it's putting it's putting pressure on on their trachea, and that's worse than using the prong collar. So using tools, using them appropriately. Before we get too go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Oh, I'm sorry, I was just gonna say, even when we use an an e-collar for the aversive, that is still for the best interest of the dog. You know, you're only using that for things you don't ever want that dog to do again because it's gonna save that dog's life.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

We call those avoidance corrections.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah, I yeah, avoidance corrections, aversive, what it they're they all have the same meaning, but I'm sorry, you're getting ready to roll.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

No, yeah, so real quick, that's we we touched on this in a previous episode. That's why it's so important, and why we we let it be known, like, hey, listen, are you able to train your own dog at home? Absolutely. But it's so important to have the knowledge, to have the education, to have the field experience, the hands-on time, and the understanding of these methods and these theories, these tools that we use, because you can not only physically harm a dog, but you can cause severe emotional trauma in the dog. And that is just as dangerous. If you create a reactive dog, especially a fear-aggressive dog, it doesn't take much. And it's just like trauma with us, it only takes once, and that's there for life, and it takes significant amounts of therapy and correction to fix. You know, I agree. I've used the e-collar in a positive manner. I've used the e-collar in the aversive corrections. My personal dog cooling, nationally certified on patrol, advanced obedience, my service dog. I use it for aversive corrections on him. Now I'll use the vibrate function for his attention for training, but if he gets any form of electricity on him specifically, it's because he also does apprehension and protection work. To be protected under the ADA, you have to have constant control of your dog and guarantee that they're not at risk, liability, or dangerous or addressing that that that capacity. So, because of that, he is conditioned that he gets one emergency recall. And if he doesn't adhere or comply to that, that's when the electric comes. That's the aversive correction, and that is to save his life. Not only his life, but the safety of people around him. People say, Well, my dog would never bite someone, but okay, that's fantastic. What if your dog's running towards a highway and do that that recall and they don't come back? Would you rather hit your dog with the electric that they're like, oh no, that hurt? I'm gonna go find mom or dad and come back. And there's a lot more involved to it. I mean, we could sit here and talk for weeks on the benefits of using a professional or even a certified trainer in an unregulated field, because timing. Timing is different on every dog. You you've got a half second to a second and a half to reinforce timing, whether it's good or bad, positive or negative behavior. And some dogs, like the dog that I worked tonight, Max, he I mean, you have got to be on that that half second marker real close to it. Because if you're not, he does not understand. And it all goes back to communication.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and on e-callers, one one last thing, like using good qual, not all e-callers are the same, you know. We we use e-collar technologies. There's better ones, that's just those are good, you know. But you know, dog trust are good, garments if you've got a lot of money to throw out there. Like there's there's really good ones. I think the mini educators, they're that's what we use because they're expensive, but they're not ridiculously expensive and they're easy to use.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah, it's a yeah, it's a good middle of the road one.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

But you know, you you go to Walmart and you get a sport dog or You know, something like that that's got like one to five or one to ten. And now I'm not really communicating with my dog because I'm not using at a level that is appropriate. So I'm actually doing more harm than good with those cheap e-collars. But yeah, like again, I I use with my dogs, I use the e-collar positively. Like even my protection apprehension canine or explosive detection apprehension canine. Like if I tap the e-collar with her, guess what she's gonna do? All she's gonna do is stare at me because she understands that when I touch that button, it means I I want your attention. Versus, you know, sometimes I can use it as an avoidance correction. And I've had to do that with with my my prior service dog. You know, he got into a thing of tried to get into a thing of dog pain pills that he found. Luckily, when he tried to chew it open, it collapsed it down and kept the pills where he couldn't get it. And that was because family members of mine had been giving him people food, even though I didn't give him that. And so he was like, ooh, uh it smelt like beef. So he was trying to eat it. So I had to set him up and do an avoidance correction. I didn't want to do that, but it was like you said, literally to save his life. So I set him up with a with a hot dog on the dash, stepped inside, watched through the window. The moment he went to grab it, boom, avoidance correction. Guess what? He didn't go after food anymore after that. But I only had to do I only had to do it once to get that point across. Like, hey, don't don't do that. And like you said, literally to to save the dog's life, the same with running towards the road and stuff. But that's why it's you have to like layer, you got to build that foundation of obedience before you can layer in the the tools, right? Like, I'm not gonna start with the e-collar because the dog's not gonna understand it. It it needs to have that basic understanding of obedience and commands and expectations. And then I say, hey, here's this new tool that's gonna help us communicate better. And I'm gonna layer that in and teach you that. So then, like, to your point, Chris, like they're running towards the road. Hey, nope, get your ass back over here. But also another thing on that, which applies directly to like service dogs too, is like things aren't optional. But especially with service

Handler Education And Avoiding Harm

SPEAKER_02 24:30

dogs, like when I tell you to down, you down. When I tell you to sit, you sit. I tell you to come, you come. Uh and and some it's not just so that they're obedient, but it's sometimes literally to save your life. Like if I'm telling you come come closer, it's because there's something coming, coming, right? Or you know, there's a dog tell you to sit here, I need to know that you're gonna sit and you're gonna stay right there because maybe there's a dog coming that's trying to trying to mess with my service dog, and yeah, I'm gonna have to stop it. Like, so so there is that's why nothing can be optional with them. Plus, yeah, like us with work, like I can't choose not to do my work, my job at work, they're gonna fire me. Yeah. Well, except I'm the boss, so I guess I'd have to fire myself. But you get the point. Like, you know, if you don't do your job at work, like you're they're gonna fire you. But you know, same with them. Like, you can't choose, especially when you're a service dog and and or any kind of working dog. Like, if I ask you, if I tell you to do your job, you gotta do it.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Uh well, it's you know, it's funny thinking of doing their job. People, a lot of people don't realize they see a somebody with a service dog, one, they may look completely healthy, but they don't know what the service dog is for. Not as you guys know better than I do, not all wounds are visible for one. But what also people don't realize, that dog just sitting there, he may seem like everything's good and he's not doing anything, he's just laying there, but that dog is on point. That dog is focused, even if it's laying there. I know if we're out and about and I'm just laying there, Loki is gonna pop too if the need arises. You know, he's gonna jump too. So it's a lot of stress on these dogs that people don't realize. So when they're out of work mode, yeah, I mean, they're never truly out of work mode, but when they're kind of able to relax a little bit, it's huge that that they can just be because just being around us, being around their handler, they're focused, and that's stressful. And people don't realize that because they just see this dog walking beside the person or laying down beside him. Oh, he's just laying there. No, that dog's still focused.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah, and like even Levi, if he would sleep under the table at a restaurant, but he would wake up periodically, are you good? But he he's like, Okay, like dad's just sitting here chilling. Like, obviously, he's he's looking around, checking out the environment. And you know, he'll get if there's nothing going on, he's gonna be like, okay, cool. And he's gonna, you know, catch a quick nap real quick, but still check in. He's still focused. If I move, he's he's he's he's alert, right? Yeah, and and to your point, yeah, not all wounds are not all disabilities are visible. And oh god, that's one of those things that really drives me crazy because I I look healthy, but you know, I've got the psychiatric stuff, but also like sodium issues. And you get those people like, what do you need a service dog? Like judgmental, like, what do you need a service dog for? And I'm like, want to be like, listen, Karen. But I mean, I just usually I just usually walk away because I'm like, if I open my mouth right now, you're gonna know 110% sure why I need a service dog.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Well, and and that's a good point too. One of the things we try to educate our handlers is how to handle themselves when the Karen comes up to you that you don't want to pop off. You know, you you want to represent yourself well always, but how to answer those questions, you know. I'll get, oh, what tat what does your dog do for you? My answer is I don't, I just I don't share that. That's personal, you know, and it's it's an easy way to kind of diffuse that situation. But yeah, you have the the people out there that want to come up and pet your dog and and do all that. And I have and Loki's do not pet on his on his vest, but you still can I pet your dog? No. And then for me being and you guys, when we're training service dogs, it's a way to educate the public. Hey, you don't pet a service dog, they got a job to do. If I'm letting people pet them, then he's not focused on me. It's a nice way to segue into hey, why don't you? And you guys know as well as I do, you're supposed to ignore them, like they're not even in the room. But that's that's hard for people. Hell, it's hard for me. I love dogs. I see a dog, I want to go boop to snoot, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah, I think that's all good information too. That's um a good example. So the reason that along with my service dog, I actually got my my MLN, my medical letter necessity, which is not required, but it's nice to have. And it is required if you're gonna use it for like housing, things like that. If if somebody says, hey, there's no dogs at all, well, guess what? If you have an MLN that accompanies, there's no registration or certification for service dogs, but if you're going to use that exemption under the FDA or the ADA protection, then you do need documentation. With that, I have my service dog for PTSD, TBI, hypervigilance, anxiety, depression. None of those are visible unless you look hard enough. And a good example of that is before when I would go into restaurants, never put my back to the door. I still usually don't if I have that option, but head's constantly on a swivel. I'm always expecting the worst, always looking for the worst. The other day, you know, I was I was at lunch with with my my wife and down in Georgia, and it's a college town where we were eating, and my dog was so quiet and out of the way, and cool he was that the the group of college kids that came in, they didn't even know that they didn't even know that he was there until we got up to leave. And they looked over and they're like, oh shit, we didn't even know you had your dog. And I'm like, Yeah, that's that's kind of the point.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

I consider that a huge compliment when some oh I didn't even know your dog was under there. I'm like, that's exactly how it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

I've had that, like, I was at a restaurant and our I felt bad for our poor server. She she didn't know that Levi was under the table because she didn't see us come in, but she was standing there when when we got up to leave, and out comes this almost 90-pound Malin Wall from under the table, and she screamed. It was a Texas Roadhouse, and she just screamed, and then she's like all like a blushful, she's like, I'm so sorry. It just I didn't I had no clue, and I was like, Well, that's that's that's a that's a good thing, you know. So

Control, Obedience, And Safety

SPEAKER_02 31:20

so before we get going down that road any further, like we'll come back and touch that some more, but I think it's important to take a step back and just like define what a service dog is, how it's outlined through the ADA, you know, the different laws I I say the ADA because that's how I usually the Americans with Disabilities Act, but also that's not the only law that protects your rights with with a service dog. So I want to take a kind of a step back. And for those that are they they might know roughly what a service dog is or what that entails, or you know, have think they have an idea, paint a better picture of what exactly uh a service dog is and what your rights, legal rights are. And on on that note, I I'm a huge advocate for handlers of service dogs, but I'm equally as much an advocate for businesses when it comes to to service dogs and understanding their legal rights, because the ADA doesn't just protect us as handlers, it also protects businesses in the way that it's it's written and structured. And I think a lot of businesses just assume that because somebody says a dog is a service dog, yes, they have to, in good faith, take that and and and accept that. However, there's there's legal reasons why you could deny access, but let's let's let's define like what a service dog is. I'm gonna leave that to Chris because he's really good at definitions. Yes, he is.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

All right. So the the ADA is governed and enforced by the DOJ, the Department of Justice. The the most updated version is the 2010 ADA revised requirements. That's going to be found under code 28 CFR 36.104 Title III. The definition technically by their standard is an animal that's individually trained to do work and perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability. They go on later to clarify that that that floor for the requirement is just one task. Now, there's many states and local counties that also have laws at their level that will protect people with disabilities and service dogs. But just like you said, there's there's protections for the businesses too. And it's important that people who are working to train with service dogs and organizations that are providing service dogs, that's at least my belief, is their responsibility and the burden of responsibility is to teach that handler the do's and don'ts, the can and can'ts. So do you want to elaborate on that?

SPEAKER_00 34:05

Yeah, I mean, one of the things we're definitely doing is we had talked a little bit earlier on how to handle yourself within within these organizations because you know the the proprietor of the established can ask, is it a service dog? Does it perform tasks? But one of the things we tell our people is they can't ask you to show the task. It's not a trick dog, it is a medical device of for lack of a better word. So we're we're teaching our handlers when you're going into these, you know, the dog's got to be under control, the dog's got to be well behaved, can't be having accidents in the store, but you don't have to that just the patron of the store, you don't have to explain to them anything about your service dog. But I know every time Loki and I walk into Sam's Club, the individual at the front entrance, he's an Army veteran, you know, he has to ask, is it a service dog? Yes. Okay, go on in. So it's making sure you understand your rights and responsibilities and what they can ask you and what they can't ask you, you know, not just for HIPAA, but for you know, personal liability.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

And that's important. That's important too. I actually have a good example before we we jump back into that. It's an experience that happened directly to me not too long ago. Uh, it was mid-last year, and unfortunately for the security guard, he was unaware that I actually trained service dogs as well. So I was very, very thorough and direct with my answers. And it's it's not a game. You're correct. That once a dog becomes a service dog, it is classified and protected as a medical device. That's what allows you that public access to be able to go into pretty much every public space, whether an animal is allowed or not. So minus a few exceptions. Yes. That's also what allows you the exemption for paying pet fees at hotels, paying pet fees or pet policies at housing, things like that. That's that's what protects you there. So we went to an aquarium. I'm not gonna say which aquarium for their well-being. But we went to an aquarium, something that a lot of people misconceive, and something that I have protected and encouraged since that event. The law does not say, as a matter of fact, it states specifically that the dog does not have to be identified. You do not have to have a vest, you do not have to have a collar, you do not have to have anything that says service dog. Now, that comes down to pick your battles. And that day, I should have picked my battle. It would have avoided the entire situation if I if I did. You know, my dog has a collar, it's a flat collar, two in a two-inch agitation that has a removable velcro patch. A lot of people that listen and follow us are aware that my dog also works with me for my company. So when we go do narcotic searches, it has a patch that goes on overdrive canine N D D. When we go out in the public, I take that patch off. I put the other patch on, big red letters, service dog, do not touch. That day I didn't have that patch. We had already exited the parking garage. I was not gonna walk all the way back to get the patch. So I knew my rights, I knew my protections. Approached the gate, dude said, Hey, is that a service dog? I said, Yeah. He said, I need to see the dog's certification ID card. I said, There's no such thing. It's a service dog. You can only ask me two questions. Well, do you have another question or can we gain entry? He said, Well, the dog has to have a vest. I said, No, it doesn't. He said, I'm not letting you in here unless that dog has a vest. I said, I understand the complication and I understand your position. Would you please get a supervisor for me? The supervisor approached, the other security guard was still there. He said, Hey, I'm the supervisor. What's going on? I said, This is a service dog. He said, Stop. Is that a service animal? I said, Yes, it is. He said, What tasks does it perform? I said, This dog it performs the tasks that have been approved by my medical provider for the Department of Veterans Affairs. He said, Thank you. Have a good day. Enjoy the aquarium. Yeah, it's important to understand to reduce conflict. And like you mentioned earlier, conduct yourself well. You know, not just the fact that one, I'm a man, two, I'm a business owner. You know, I I have my own branded clothing. Everywhere I go, I have a piece of clothing on that put the name of my company. But even if that wasn't relevant, when you interact with people, you're representing the entire community of individuals who utilize service dogs. You make an ass out of yourself, you make an ass out of all of us.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yeah, sorry, Joe. I was gonna say on that point, I I'd say most

Public Etiquette And Legal Rights

SPEAKER_02 39:10

there's there's a lot of uneducation or uneducation when it comes to to service dogs. And that's why it's so crucial when you are a handler to know your rights and know the laws. And literally, when we train a service dog, I'll send them with the uh they're like freaking eight bucks on Amazon for the cards that have their rights and stuff. And and sometimes you know, people are are timid and they don't want to handle that, have that not not maybe not necessarily timid, but like they're they don't want that confrontation. So having to be like, hey, this has like all the information that you need on there. But I I've got two modes. I've got the choose violence mode and the I'm gonna educate people mode. So you you're gonna learn something either way, but I'm like, please, please tell me. And to your point, Chris, you don't have to I so I believe it's 46 out of 50 states recognize service dogs in training. They give them the same protections as a fully trained service dog. The distinction is a service dog in training must wear a vest marking that it is a service dog in training. But the ADA states a fully trained service dog does not have to have any marking. And to the point that you guys made, the two questions that they're allowed to ask you legally is is it a service dog and what tasks does it perform? I will tell you in three years of handling a service dog, only twice have I actually been asked the appropriate questions. Usually it's is it a service dog and what's it for? Which I'm like, that's that's that's not the right question. And usually to that, my response is PTSD and and go about my way.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

But no, it it's it's funny you talk we were talking about the vest. I tell people Loki's vest is purely one, it puts him in work mode, and two, it's to hold his placards. It's not necessary, like you were saying, Chris, and like the ADA says, it's not necessary, it's not a requirement, but it can avoid those kind of those those situations where you know somebody's bringing their foofa doodle in there that's going crazy and and oh yes, it's a service dog, yeah, but we all know it's not. But yeah, that I his is purely for his placards, and it avoids just those questions.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Speaking of the people that are they're taking their dogs in that are out of control, Joe, can you kind of divulge into things that will get you kicked out or denied into the places?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Yeah, I mean, those are the big ones right there. It's if the dog has an accident in the the establishment, they can ask you to leave. If the dog's out of control, not uh, you know, you talked about they have to be under control. Now, we all know there's there's times I've walked Loki out of a store, he's just having a bad day, like people do. You know, maybe and and as a handler and a trainer, I knew as we're going in, hey, he's a little off today, let's just let's just not do this today. But it's when they're out of control, they're barking. And for me too, and I know this isn't everybody's thing. To me, if you're letting somebody pet your service dog, it's not a service dog. That's just my own thing because we're teaching the dogs to focus on their handlers. I know some people have a hey, go say hi command to their dog, but we teach all our people if that dog is in work mode, nobody touches a dog. That's just us, and I know that can vary.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

So I I I I agree with that, except for I don't handle personally, I don't handle confrontation very well, right? So, and let's let's face it, some people get very upset when you tell them they can't pet your service dog. How dare me not let you pet my my medical equipment? Like, would would you ask somebody in a wheelchair if you can test out their wheelchair? No, so why are you gonna ask me that? Yeah, let me hit that oxygen tank real quick. Let me borrow your cane. Like, no. But you know, to avoid that, and and also I know my dog, like my dog can get like Levi, he could get pet from strangers, right? And guess what he did? He would turn his butt to them, but he was focused on me the whole time. Yeah, and the moment I move to walk away, he's coming with me. But also, he was really good at reading the five. So sometimes just to appease people to leave me the fuck alone, I I would be like, fine. But he he knew he was good at knowing. He'd be like, Yeah, dad doesn't actually want me to get pet by this person. And he had this look like he would like bend his head back and he would like raise an eyebrow and he'd give you this don't talk. Me look uh and I'd be like, Well, he doesn't want to say hi to you, and then they would get offended. I'd be like, I'm not gonna make my dog say hi to you.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Yeah, and then one of the things that's a good thing talking about focus and control. And you mentioned earlier that even when they do have downtime, they're really not off the clock. Service dog, that's why they're with you 24-7, 365, everywhere you go. They sleep, you know, near or with you, they're they're with you in the home, they're with you in public. That's their job. That's the reason for their existence. So, you know, your your blood sugar doesn't just magically never drop when you're at home. So, you know, I've had I've had attacks, I've had panic attacks, anxiety attacks, I've had breakdowns in my home. I've had them with when I'm by myself, I've had them when I've had family in the other room. So you that's the point of a disability is you can't control when it affects you and when it happens. So something that we do, it relates towards the service work, also, is when we get done with you know, Cooley, Cooley's a handsome dog. Uh kind of the same as you were saying earlier. He's really the face. Nobody really wants to talk to me. No one cares about me. They just like the fact that I have a cool dog. Plus, he's a he's a malle duchie and mouthwalker, all the rage right now. So everybody wants to touch him. When we go and work the narcotics detection at recovery centers, he has a release command from his duties, and that's okay. So when we go through, it's always the same. But the the clients and the staff of those clients, which it's never the residents, it's always the people who are walking with me, who are working with me that we're already familiar with. And they're very, very respectful of that situation. Same thing you said. Sometimes dogs have bad days, they're fallible creatures, they read emotions, they have emotions. So if I know he's having a bad day, they always ask after the search is complete. They never asked before, they never asked. Wait until the search is complete. Usually we're standing outside or we're in the lobby setting up the next visit, and they'll say, Hey, is it okay if I if I pin? I'll look at him, I'll judge his figure and his engagement from the day. If he did a good job searching, now if he starts slacking off of his job, no, absolutely not. That's rich kid syndrome, we're not doing that. My female Mal is really, really bad about that. My male, not so much. And he'll look at me and I'll look at him and I'll say, okay, and I'll wave my hands towards the person and he'll go over there and he'll get some love. Same thing that Michael said, he's always staring at me. And there's been times that I'll walk away and get 15, 20 feet away to the car, and I'll open the back door, and he's still getting pet on. And right in the middle of being lugged on, I'll go, here, and he boom, yeah, breaks that behavior and immediately comes to me. It comes down to you, your dog, the bond, the training, and communication and understanding. Some dogs can, some dogs can't.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Yeah, and that's where you gotta know your dog. Like, you gotta know your dog's limitations and abilities. And like, for example, that's why I didn't have an issue with Levi, which really pissed off people at like the hockey games, because Levi would always let them pet him, but then now I've got this new puppy and nobody gets to touch him because he can't handle that. He doesn't one, he doesn't know his job to that extent yet. But two, it's I'm like, it's not the same dog, like get over yourselves. He's my medical equipment, not yours. But yeah, like Levi, if if I would I turn to walk away, he was right there by my side. The moment I I moved to go somewhere, he's by my side, which is again why I allowed it. But like to your point, like it was it's more of appeasement so I can avoid conflict because again,

Vests, Equipment Savvy, And Focus

SPEAKER_02 48:00

the image that we set, right? Like, I don't want to make myself look bad, but I I kind of wanted to hit too on on the vest thing, like you know, that situation that that you were sharing, like and like Joe kind of hit on it too, is you know, yeah, they're not required to work in a vest. Most of the time we do it just for the people out there so that they know. And my my personal preference is I found the do not pet patches made people ask to pet more. So when I put was P, I like it's not really your your business what my disabilities are, but I did find that when I put the PTSD service dog, do not distract on there, people see that PTSD service dog, and then they were less prone to ask me questions. And especially if you put an RBF face on, they really don't want to want to mess with you. But it was it was more for other people, but also for my dog, because then he's like, Oh, we're we're gonna go do something. But there are times there's been times where I forgot his vest, or you know, or I had already like I'd taken him, I just forgot to put it back on him, and I've taken them in, and people are like, is that a certain and of course, like I was completely oblivious to the fact that I didn't have his vest on him, like one of those times, and I was like, looked at them like they were stupid. I was like, Yeah, he's a service dog. But again, you know, that legally he's not required to, but that's why I train service dogs with gear and without. So they have that's they have that very high standard, even without a vest on, because to the point, they're even when they're not working, they're working. So I need them to be focused, I need them to do their job. And and if just because dogs get used to gear. Like if I if I put my vest on my my protection dog, she knows it's time to go do work, and she gets amped up. And and the same with your service dog, like, you know, they have that stellar obedience even without it. But when I put that vest on, it's like it's go to work, it's it's game time, like that that demeanor changes, and he's like, I'm all business now, you know.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Yeah, we we see that all the time because we're doing that. It's you know, when when Loki and I get out of the car, it's you know, I say harness, he dips his head down, he puts his harness on, work mode. When it's off, he's puppy mode. Now we're at a ton of events, you know, because we're trying to raise money. So we're at the events and people don't realize, okay, I can't pet them, but near the end of the event and it's less people, I'll take the vest off and I'll all right, Loki, go get some loving. And you know, like you said, he's looking back at me still, but he's going to get in loving. That vest is is his mindset changes. I'm in work mode, but today before the before we went on live, we were working some DPT without the vest. So, like you said, he has to they need to know the difference. Or I mean they have to be able to do it in both situations.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

That's causing equipment, it's creating the dog to become equipment savvy. That's my original mentor. That's how she trains her dogs. Immediately before her detection dogs go in to do a search. She slides a uh a loose-fitted two-inch collar over their their face and onto their neck. And you can watch it, it's really it's really fascinating once you sit back, especially from a trainer standpoint, and you start be you start understanding canine body language and the psychology behind dogs. It's fascinating to watch that on off switch go. And that's uh, you know, we we talked about the on-off switch. That's an important part about my specific situation with my dog. My dog is trained and nationally certified to bite people, more or less, for a summary definition. So part of one of the requirements for me and for my dog is to have that on off switch. So my dog has not been. I've taken the equipment savvy section off for the flat collar and the harness to an extent. If my dog has a harness on, he knows he's gonna be doing tracking or man track, but he is equipment savvy to his electronic trainer, and that's kind of that that extra layer of control. Now, with that being said, I think we should discuss some just a handful of tasks and what the difference between tasks are that are approved and not approved, because a protection dog, and me and Michael talked about this the other day. So with my specific disabilities and approved needs for a dog to enhance the quality of my daily standard of living, they're all psychological. My dog just naturally being with me makes me feel better, makes me feel safer. I know I've got someone on my six. That dude's got my back thick and thin, doesn't matter who it is, how big the dude is. Kind of like me, that dog doesn't care if you're 350 and 610. He's gonna swing on you whether it's gonna hurt him in the next morning or not. So when it comes to that, protection is specifically addressed through the ADA. And a dog whose sole function is protection or providing emotional support can't be classified as therapist animals. But note the terminology when you look at legalities, when you look at legal terms, this was something that I experienced and learned through my time in corrections and going to court and my certification class for my testifying in court as a drug expert witness, is one word here or there in the way that it's used or phrased can make a massive difference in legal interpretation. So, hey, you should do this versus you shall do this. Shall is a non-negotiable, should means there's a little wiggle room in the gray area. Yeah, so when it says whose sole function is protection, does not count. That's fine. It doesn't say you can't have a dog that doubles over as a protection dog as long as you take the means to mitigate the risk, keep your dog in control. I have thousands of hours of training into my dog. I'm comfortable with my dog, I'm confident with my dog, and I know that my dog is not going to deploy on someone unless it's needed, or I tell him to do so. So he does have he does have trained service tasks, grounding, blocking, dpt, interruption. Those are things that I would like to get your perspective from on some of the more common and then maybe one or two uncommon trained steps.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

And like you were saying, we're putting those foundational ones, the DPT, the behavior interruption, the blocks, and the covers, because those are just great ones for everybody. A lot of people see pictures of me and Loki, and he's usually between my legs in a center position. And it's just it's a very comfortable position for me. And then I'll use centro, the Italian word for center, and he'll do a backward center. So maybe I'm checking out at the grocery store or whatever, he's in that backward center, and you know, I don't have to worry about anybody coming up behind me. And that's what you you talked about, they're not all visible. The DPT that's typically not visible, you know, what's causing that, or the behavior interruption. We've got one veteran approach for the program who we're training a dog up right now. He gets, you know, trigger finger. And we're going to teach a dog recognize that, interrupt that behavior, brings him back into the present. But we have one woman in our program. So part of the way we're training these handlers, and we touched on this earlier, they're almost becoming trainers themselves. You know, we're putting those initial three, four tasks on the dog. Well, this woman has put probably another 10 or more tasks on her dog. She taught her dog to take her socks off because she's got some mobility issues. It's picking up, you know, if she drops her medicine bottle, it's going to pick up the medicine bottle. She's teaching it to hit her medical alert button. So there are those individual-specific tasks as part of the interview process with the individuals. What do you need this dog to do for you? Because again, it's every dog's different. You're training that dog in front of you, but the tasks that dog may need may be different. If I drop Loki's leash, I don't have any mobility issues right now, but I'm preparing him for the time when maybe I will. If I drop his leash, I say leash,

Task Work: DPT, Blocking, Interruption

SPEAKER_00 56:30

he picks it up and gives it back to me. We teach that soft hold. I can give Loki a paper plate and say hold, he's not going to puncture it. And we tell people, kids, if they got to go pick up medicine bottle, or they have to pick up an envelope that you dropped, you don't want him destroying it. So it's learning those soft holds. There's videos of Loki and I, he's doing, it looks like he's doing biting, biting me on me. He is, but he knows just how hard to bite without hurting. And I tell again, it was like with the shooting. It's not a trick. It's a, hey, what if that dog needs to grab their handler and pull them somewhere? Get them out of the line of, well, not line of fire, but whatever is causing the issue. They need to be able to do that without hurting them. So those are some of those unique tasks that they may do. Again, the one individual, her dog puts the toys away because she has trouble bending down. So she'll she taught the dog with the way we taught her how to train a dog. Okay, put we're done for the day, go put all your toys away. So it's it's getting into those really individual specific tasks.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

I kind of want to talk on disrupting tasks some more because you're like, okay, what's what's that look like? Well, it can it could be anything. Like you were talking about the trigger finger, you know, we've used it to teach like some people like to obsessively scratch, or I obsessively tap my foot, like when I'm anxious and I'm sitting, my foot gets to going 90 miles an hour and I can't stop it. Teaching the dog to pick up on that. But one of the interesting ones was we had a client who he gets overwhelmed and he starts hyperventilating. So teaching the dog how to pick up on the hyperventilating and disrupt that behavior. So you disrupting can can be a lot of things. And another one that way that that was used with Levi was if I would get like I get like flashes of like extreme emotion, particularly like anger or rage. And the irony is the emotion for rage and the emotion for excitement are very similar. So that took him some some learning to get used to. Because there was a couple times where I got extremely excited about something, and he thought I was like it rage. I was like, yo, dude, it's cool. And he's like, oh, but he he he figured it out, right? But what he would do for that is he would jump up on me, and if that didn't snap me out of it, he would actually grab my beard. He wouldn't bite me, he would grab my beard and just like a little tug until I acknowledged him and snapped out of it. And so this disrupting is a really good one. It could be used in for whatever.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Well, you know, it's I had an individual recently over social media because they see all the training stuff I put up, and they're like, I'd love to see a real world situation. I said, Well, you're not really going to see that very often because nobody's filming it. But we do have so our head trainer, Travis Lloyd, he's a civilian, but he spent eight years in Afghanistan as a civilian contractor. And he sent me a video quite some time ago. He was sitting in a waiting room with his dog Cairo between his legs, and his it was being filmed by a friend, and he narrates it because he's going through an actual event in his mind. He's he's flashing back to where he was. And if you don't know what you're looking for, you miss it. But he's he's kind of bent over with his hands between his legs, and you can see Cairo just she can sense something's not right. She picks her head up and just nudges him. And that was enough to ground him, to bring him back in the present. And I like to sherry the story as well. I was in church, Loki goes to church with me, and I was in church, and I stand in the back because I don't want to be a distraction, even though I am with a dog, and my mind was wandering to where I didn't really want it to go. And we hadn't worked on this one much with Loki, but he knew something was not right. He lifted up, nudged me back into the present. So he grounded me back to where I was. And again, that's where we talk about people don't see it, they don't know what they're looking for. That little nudge, that little nip, whatever it may be, grounds you back into the present. And it is it is just so crucial. And I have to share one more story just how intuitive dogs were or are. I'm at church again and I'm back, mass hadn't started, and one of the ushers that Loki had seen many, many, many times, he stands up, he was laying down, he stood up and he is laser focused on this usher. And I'm like, why is he so focused on this individual? He knows this individual. Individuals never pet him before, but he knows him. The individual came over to tell me that his wife had passed. Loki knew something was not right. About a month later, same exact thing happened, same individual. Guy comes over, told me his cancer came back. So it's just amazing how not only are they sensing us, but they just are so intuitive to their surroundings.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Yeah. Speaking on that topic, um, let's talk about primarily focused towards heavy or heavily traumatic, not to isolate or say it's more important than anyone else's, but a really, really strongly affected field, you know, military personnel, civilian contractors, first responders, whether that's law enforcement, corrections, fire, EMS, the hospitalist medical field. Let's talk about having a service dog benefits you more than just those trained tests. You know, we touched on that a little bit when we were before we came on air about the structure and all that. But on top of that, like you said, Michael, earlier talking during this session here, we almost are forced to learn how to control our anger because we know, you know, we we're we're now responsible for this animal. And like you just said, Joe, the animals know. The dogs know when something's off, they understand these things. My case specifically, could you imagine the chaos that would ensue if I had a black outrage moment in the middle of Lowe's with a dog that's trained how to bite people? It's my responsibility to keep that dog safe. It's my responsibility to get that dog under control. So at the end of the day, it actually helps me grow, learn, and heal over time. Will it ever go away? No. I don't believe that the specific disabilities that some of us deal with ever go away, but we are capable of growing and learning the best ways to manage and cope with these. And I am a huge advocate, even before I had my own personal service dog, that dogs are a really big key towards that for some of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Yeah. So I I was a big advocate before I before dogs, before I trained dogs, like I like I said in in our our our tester episode, whatever we call trailer episode. You know, I I I worked with horses before that. And I I was a huge advocate that that horses were actually a man's best friend because very similar, they're very attuned, but dogs take it to the whole next level. Now that I know so much more about dogs, like, yeah, dude, dogs, dogs are a man's best friend. But yeah, I this kind of ties into another thing that I wanted to discuss in this episode, is yeah, the benefit uh for veterans, first responders of having a service dog before I got Levi, you know, before I decided I was going to get a service dog, my buddy who who runs an organization that I got Levi from, he was like, I was like,

Invisible Work And Subtle Alerts

SPEAKER_02 1:04:30

I don't, I don't necessarily need a service dog, right? And he was like, all right, let me ask you a question. When when's the last time you left your house? And I was like, I'm probably I leave my house every day. I go riding, I like I go ride my horse every day. He was like, okay, no, better question. When's the last time you went to town? Because at that point I lived in BFE, Arkansas, about 20 minutes from the nearest town. And I sat down and I thought, it'd been four months since I went to town. Anytime I needed something, I sent somebody else. And and then even before I that was when I started the process to get Levi. I obviously had to wait a couple months before I got him. But I moved into a city and going to a grocery store. So for me to go get something from the store, I would write my list. I would look on the Walmart app, figure out exactly what aisle everything was on, put that beside it, then I would rewrite the list so that everything was optimized where I could get in and get out. I would wait until about 15, 20 minutes before they closed to go. And because there's not a whole lot of people there. And I would get in, get my shit, and get out. And if I did have to go in the middle of the day and I had to be around people, dude, 10 minutes in Walmart and I'm extremely agitated versus getting a service dog, very quickly I found where I I could be in the store for thirty minutes. I could be in the store for an hour. I became a lot more social, you know. uh more outgoing because I had that confident that confidence to get out there and not just the the the tasks that he performed that helped but also that confidence of I got him there like if I'd start to get anxious I'll I would just reach down and I would just grab his ear and I would just massage it like this and that would give me that comfort or just stroke the top of his head and just having that that dog beside you like gives you that little extra bit of confidence but also if I didn't if I was having a day or a moment where I didn't want to interact with people I could avoid the dog became a way that I could avoid interaction because I would see somebody that looked like they wanted to engage and I would just stare down at my dog and I just watch my dog and I could avoid that. So those were like some of those benefits and and Chris you already kind of hit on it that having a dog and you know before a service dog you you sit with your back or you never sit with your back to the door saying yeah I gotta see what's going on head's constantly on a swivel well when you're hypervigilant and you're scanning anytime somebody moves I'm scanning like why did you move what's going on you know and that's mentally taxing like you get drained so easy which kind of feeds the irritability but having that service dog and being like okay like he's under the table and he's chilling there's nothing going on I can relax it it's it's really beneficial in that way on top of just the the service task that we talked about.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

Yeah you know it's you're talking about not wanting to leave the home and we have an individual who's about in the final stages of his service dog training but he had lost his previous service dog just to age and health and he came out for his final interview and his we let you know bring your wife bring your kids bring whoever you want to the final interview and his wife was saying he was almost becoming a recluse because he just he couldn't leave the house he he did not want to leave the house and when we had him out to the training facility for his his final interview he like you're saying feet are tapping hands are moving he can't stay still hyper vigilant and then we brought out one of the dogs that ended up being his dog and he just the change it it it gives me chills today got down on the floor loving on the dog it's just what they do for our veterans and first responders it's it's amazing it's letting you guys live the life you deserve and the life you want to live yeah you brought up a good point there and and kind of the last little topic I wanted to talk about on this that was that was actually a good segue in to this is the impacts of losing a service dog.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:02

And I really kind of want to talk about that today because I mean I lost Levi tragically in May and then I you know talked to a Marine veteran this afternoon who went through that in 2024. And so I really kind of wanted to to talk about the impact that it has when you you do have you you get a lot of freedom from having a service dog. You get a portion of your life back to to Chris's point like you can you can heal from the things that you go through but it's always still there and there's those aspects you always have to deal with and then here comes this the service dog to where now those things that you deal with every day you're not having to deal with as much for example the almost three years I had Levi I I didn't disassociate anymore. That was it I've come to the I came to the point that I forgot that I even used to deal with that right because anytime I start to disassociate guess what he would snap me out of it anytime you start to have those triggering moments that dog snapping you out of it it it's doing those those tasks for you little things that you don't think about until that that dog's no longer there and for myself and the veteran that I spoke to today and others that I've talked to that have lost service dogs it's it's a it's really hard when when you lose that dog especially if you you don't have another one in training lined up and it's it's unexpected you you lose a lot of that freedom for example like that same night I was disassociating I was like like to the point that they could hardly like the only thing that snap would snap me out of it is luckily I have Padme and like she was able to help snap me out of it. But if I didn't have her I'm not gonna lie we wouldn't be having this conversation if I if I didn't have Padme that's how bad I got very quickly and the the rage came back and and all those things that I didn't have to worry about for all that time came back out definitely if I didn't run a business and I have to go talk I have

Why Service Dogs Change Daily Life

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

to talk to to clients on the phone and I got to get out and and train dogs and such I I'd be at the house you know depression that's a real fucking thing most days I don't want to get out of bed but I'm like well I got this service dog pup I got to take care of I got my other dog I got to take care of I got clients dogs I got to take care of but that that loss of that service dog can be very difficult.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:46

You know I think that's something that that we you know Joe you'd probably have some really good impact stories. I know from a training aspect it's constantly I've got people that come back you know a week later six weeks later six months later a year later and they're like man you know I'm I'm really grateful that you worked with us and worked with the dog and and you know the dog's amazing and they tell me stories that are still good stories for us. And I bet you've got a a ton of them we kind of mentioned it earlier we touched a little bit on it when we were talking about not all wounds are visible. When you look at someone in public and they appear healthy and they have a service dog it's not just what they're doing in that moment you don't know what happens behind closed doors. You know Michael had a uh a situation where his dog saved his life I've had moments where my dog has saved my life most notably when I lost my daughter to cancer if I didn't have my dog there was there was nothing that was going to stop me.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:54

Dude I'm gonna tell you when I when I lost Levi everybody was very concerned like the concerns was was I gonna make it and two was I gonna fall back into to alcohol and like I said in in our in our our first episode when we were kind of sharing our experience I I did buy a beer that night and that was concerning the people I took two sips out of it because I knew that's not the path I wanted to go back down. I took two sips out of it poured it poured it out on his grave and I did that because that was his and my thing like we we went to hockey games I'd get a beer I'd take the first drink he got the second drink and and so I did it I did it for that I I that night he got he got the whole thing but yeah I I I got back to to the house and I I very much was ready to end it all and honestly if it wasn't for Padme like I I would have probably ate a bullet that night you know it it's very difficult like I I can't tell you how many hundreds thousands of times Levi saved my life sometimes without me even knowing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

Joe you got any any notable stories on that topic?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:15

Yeah I mean we the one was with you can hear Loki squeaking his ball on his side the one was that that individual who was becoming a recluse but we have one of the first responders in the program that he's doing things he never thought he'd do again you know he he was like your Walmart story he would plan everything out his his heart rate would race as he would get closer and closer to the store he'd run in he'd run out he'd have to sit in his truck and decompress before he could even drive away he called me said he went to the store got his stuff came out drove away he goes I haven't done that I I can't even remember the last time I've done that it's it's giving you guys a sense of purpose again and you just it's so common that without my dog I don't know where I'd be Travis our head trainer see he said just like you guys that this dog has saved my life on multiple occasions you know because you're you're falling back into the old habits of sometimes you can call paranoia you call hypervigilance but we were at out one time and the veterans were we're all sitting around we did a training session we're sitting around in little town in Ohio and he says to Travis that guy takes my picture one more time we're gonna have a problem and he had he's just looking at his phone he's not taking your picture you know we're in little BFE Ohio it's it's that hypervigilance it's these dogs being there to snap us back into where we have to be and when I say us I I haven't been the experiences you guys have but there are plenty of civilians that that have service dogs for a reason as well there's other traumas that people go through we focused on the veteran and first responder community just because that's that's what we have chosen to do but dogs are saving lives every day for veterans first responders civilians it's it's it's a blessing that they're around we don't deserve them yeah we we we definitely don't absolutely and that's you know I I think that that is when we talked about you know continuing education I think that's probably one of the things that feels the best for me you know I love when when people call me that have had you know Michael you focus on behavior modification modification and it I know that feeling it feels great when someone calls you and they're like listen my dog went from we're gonna have to rehome it or put it down to a happy part of my family.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:49

So being someone who's lived those experiences and and walked in those shoes and you're absolutely right and that's why I kind of emphasized earlier not to downplay service dogs and their purpose with civilians it's just there's a a higher capacity it's a more dense population for someone who's directly whether it's by choice or not yeah don't get me wrong I knew I knew the risks when I signed my contract I knew the same is correct same organ incorrections I knew the risks when I put that badge on I knew I was going to see people who took their own lives I knew I was going to see just traumatic fist fights. I saw some fights in county jails that put anything I saw in Iraq to shame in a heartbeat you know and it it's these things that there's there's a difference. When you come home and you can communicate without speaking you know you go to work corrections is a really good one and you know hey this might be a trigger warning but this is a raw podcast this is what we talk about. When you go to work into an environment where you're surrounded with violence and dishonesty and all of those those factors that you're already triggered by for someone like me we thrive in the chaos and it's not that we enjoy it that we do the job we've been conditioned and trained to survive it and to survive and work efficiently and thrive in that environment. So that's what we choose to do because somebody has to do it. And in our minds in my mind I'll speak for myself it might as well be me. So when you have an extra bad day you know you you go home and say you you just ended a shift where you you witnessed or dealt with the investigation of a suicide inside of your facility there was a day that I walked in and I found the guy that that had successfully taken his life and I'm the one that found it going home nobody understands that you can't explain that to somebody who hasn't lived it so I didn't have to explain it to my dog. All I had to do was pet him you ain't gotta say a word.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:07

No and you know and I'm glad you put that up the lived experiences that's why I have Travis and some of the veterans on my board when we do these final interviews they can relate to things I cannot so we we need to make sure as our organization that we're providing what is needed and they can help evaluate these individuals for me as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:31

Again it's just experiences I I don't have but I want to make sure we're serving the community the right way yeah and again to to Chris's point like we're we're we're focused on veterans and first responders today obviously because you know that's what canine Heroes for Heroes mission is but we we have a program that trains service dogs for survivors of trafficking Levi's legacy and we we train plenty of service dogs for civilians who very much need it just just as much as as we do that it that looks a little different but you know things like a a survivor of sexual assault a survivor of human trafficking children with autism mobility

Grief After Losing A Service Dog

SPEAKER_02 1:20:20

you know there there's a wide range of applications and and dogs are just phenomenal at at filling those needs so in no way are we taking away from those those other populations and those other individuals that have or need service dogs because it it's just as crucial in their life as it is in in our lives as veterans and first responders that's that's just the primary focus of of this is like if we oh if we talked about every aspect of this we could go on for like I mean we could go on about service dogs for veterans and first responders alone for like eight hours if we wanted to talk about all things service dogs we could be here for for days right we might as well just make it a live stream and you can just hop in and out as you want.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

Yeah it's it's it's a blessing for all of us to be in this field and the more we can collaborate with each other other service dog reputable service dog companies the more we can help the community because like you said it is a dense population what is it one percent of the population has chosen to wear the uniform and that even though it's a small population there's a large need and all of us can fill that need you know with the nonprofit end we're all kind of fighting for that same pool of money but that's okay I don't have to provide every dog if I can be a resource to maybe somebody in California we're not gonna it's not a good idea for us in Ohio to help them in California but I maybe I have somebody in my database hey go check these guys out we just if I always say if we all do a little we if we all do a little we'll do a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:00

Yeah go ahead I was I was gonna say yeah and that's that's very much you know my philosophy like like I said before we we went live like I don't like training service dogs for veterans and first responders. Not because I don't want to train them but I'm not a 501c3 i've got to I have to charge for my services because I have to keep the lights on I've I've got to keep keep the the doors open right now that doesn't mean I won't if I if I have to but I I'm gonna do what I can to make it fair and affordable but that's where I'm like hey let me put you in touch with like canine heroes for heroes or hiatus canine where I got Levi from so you can ask Joe I'll text him and I'll text my buddy Josh in in Texas and I'll be like hey do you guys have capacity for service dogs I got a veteran looking and I'll I'll I'll try to send them to somebody else and then if nobody's got the capacity then I'm like okay I'll I'll train this dog for you. But yeah it's and kind of back to Chris's point earlier about how we met you know it's all about collaboration and I'm actually pretty certain we crossed paths because he was like hey how do you do your marketing so good and stuff right and I was like oh well I do X Y and Z right like I'm not over here trying to trying to I I could easily be like yeah that's my secret screw you but I'm like yeah no I do X Y and Z and I've I've learned just as much from him as he has from me but that's that's where you the way I see it is there's so many dogs out there that need help and there's so many people out there that need a service dog that nobody's really my competition. I do certain things better than other people but other people do certain things better than I do. Like the the day there's no dogs for us to train and there's nobody that needs a service dog I'll pack up shop and find something else to do but that's not gonna happen in the near future.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:05

Yeah speaking of contact and reaching out Joe if someone is in one of your areas of operation how would they get in touch with you? What would be the best way?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:14

So they can go to our website it's just K9H and there is either just a general inquiry or they can fill out the initial application form. And then all the social media platforms were either K9H4H or K9 Heroes for heroes and the cell number on there is my direct line so they'll get me directly again I talked about I still have a day job so I can't always answer the phone immediately but yeah the best way is is through any of the social platforms with the website you can send me an email.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:44

And you have donation links on there if somebody wants to yeah we are completely funded by charitable charitable donations.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:52

We've actually had two families privately fund entire dogs from that's something yeah that's something we talked about before we came on air too and I did want to touch on that especially now that we've we've kind of gotten the contact and how to get a hold of you out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:07

So we touched a little bit on funding the majority the vast majority of of programs like yours similar to yours are mainly grant funded you had mentioned that that you all haven't done any grants yet so you're funding your donations yeah we're quite busy so yeah we haven't even touched the grant end of it yet I want to get into that I just haven't had the opportunity so yeah we are completely funded and I tell people they hear that $30 to $3500 per dog like well I can't afford that hey whether you're given a dollar or 35 50 whatever it is every dollar helps it's going to I don't take a salary nobody on my board takes a salary someday I hope I can but right now everything gets put back into the dogs and the veterans but yeah we we we're updating our calendar of events it is we are booked and it's it's phenomenal because it gets me out being able to talk to everybody but yeah if somebody wants to donate again no dollar amounts too small and of course no dollar amounts too large there you go every dollar counts yeah so on that note let's let's kick it to the to the cap off of our show which is a news headline so a couple weeks ago there was an incident in Memphis involving a task force from the Memphis PD and some federal agents which if if you're watching the video of this I will throw the clip in the in in in the gap here so you can watch the the video of what happened but if you're listening to this I'll just kind of recap it.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:50

So what what happened is they're making an arrest on somebody that's got felony warrants and in in the video that they they post of course they the the the first part they just show this marsh marshal or federal agent kicking somebody's little mini schnauzer puppy but when you when you watch the the whole video the the events leading up to that is the dog is loose and it's running and it's terrorizing the police canine that is there trying to perform its dog uh perform its job and you can audibly hear the officer one of the canine officers say somebody get that effing dog right and there you can see a couple of them trying to grab the dog nobody can grab it and it comes back towards the canine and one of them just punts it. So you know there's obviously the outcry uh of brutality against animals and and like that officer handled this wrong and such forth watching that video Was the officer wrong? What's what's what's your take on it? I'll I'll let Joe answer first.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:07

Yeah, I you know, I watched it a couple times, and like all of us, we're looking at all the dogs, not just the one that got punted. And they were protecting the dog. Uh whether it's a working canine in the police or service dog, I always tell people, as much as that dog has responsibility to me, I have it to the dog as well. So they were protecting that canine. And what other was what was the alternative for that officer to do? Let that dog go nip at the canine? That dog probably would have got a lot hurt a lot worse

Collaboration, Funding, And Access

SPEAKER_00 1:28:40

if he would actually been able to get up on that. I don't know if it was a Malinoir Shepherd, I can't remember, but that little thing would have become a chew toy. So I uh I I'm I'm on the side of the officer. I think he did what he needed to do to end the situation because after he did that, the dog went away.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:55

What I see you nodding, Chris. So what what's what's your take? I'm sure it's very similar to mine.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:01

Yeah, so I've I mean, Joe, you made some some fantastic points there. I I would like to point out just a wild, crazy theory that was created specifically from this event, not historical evidence, but are you telling me that a good solid recall would have been beneficial for the safety of that small dog?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:22

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:24

And we talked about that earlier, and you're absolutely right. The handler has a responsibility to that dog the same as the dog has a responsibility to that handler. Small dog, big dog doesn't matter. You have to look at this from not just a community standpoint, a personal standpoint, but also a safety, an officer safety standpoint. So, yes, you're dealing with somebody who clearly is resisting arrest, who on video is resisting that effort of detention. So the officers need to focus. They need to have their attention on that individual, not a small dog, not a big dog, not any kind of not an elephant. I don't care what kind of animal it is. They don't need to be distracted by anything in that situation. That's problem number one. Problem number two, the dog, the canine that's involved in that situation, also needs to be focused on its task, focused on its job. Same thing with service dogs. No, you cannot pet my dog. My dog's job is to focus on me because I need that dog to focus on me. What if I have a panic attack while you're petting my dog and that dog could have alerted to it, but he didn't because you're petting my dog? I get it both ways. And being able to look at these situations with an open, open mind and non-biased opinion, but a professional aspect on that opinion as well is I think it's important. So safety. Small dog bites hurt too. I've worked with shihtzus that were resource guarding the owner so much that I had to put a bite suit or at least a pair of bite suit pants on to go up and manage and deal with that dog because he was tearing me up. And a small dog's mouth, may surprise you, carries just as much bacteria as a big dog's mouth. And if they break skin, you're just as prone to infection from a small dog as a big dog. So how many how many videos have we seen in the last few years where a dog has approached an officer displaying a form of aggression or interference of duty? The officer has given verbal directives to the owner of that dog, get your dog, please get your dog, get your dog. What's the next thing that happens? One of two things primarily happens either the dog gets tased in a good case scenario, or the dog gets lethal options to where they shoot the dog. That could have been a very real possibility. So instead of saying, Well, why did you have to kick the dog? Look at the fact that he could have shot the dog and he chose not to. So when you look at your escalation of force continuum, more often than not, I'm not saying every agency, and uh especially federal agencies, I'm not familiar with federal agencies and their their force continuum, but any agency that I've worked at, it's verbal, physical, chemical, non-lethal other than chemical, so you know, tasers, things like that, and then lethal. So more often than not, officers are jumping more frequently towards the top of that continuum and going lethal. This guy chose literally the bottom two. He gave verbal directives. Get your dog, get your dog. That didn't happen. He applied physical force.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:49

Yeah, yeah, I I'm very similar with you on that, Chris. And yeah, I I would have done the same thing. I've I have done the same thing. Like, I do not advocate for violence against animals or animal cruelty. However, if your dog is posing a threat to my dog, I'm going to advocate for my dog. My dog's commitment to me is just as strong as my commitment to my dog. My I I expect my my dog to perform its job, and I have a job that coincides with that. And in the case of a service dog, my job is to advocate for it, whether that's out in public or from a a dog, another dog in this situation. And I absolutely have bashed a pit bull. It didn't do any harm. So don't be like, oh, I I did have to, I had a flagpole and I smacked that that pit bull in the head a few times to get it to not attack my service dog. And you know, on the on a working dog side, like that I expect my dog to perform its tasks, but again, I'm advocating for it. And also it expects me to not put it in a situation where it's at unnecessary risk. I'm right there with you. Like that that dog is is is coming up and to your point, distracting that dog from doing its job. Totally that canine. Yeah, that that canine totally could have chewed it up like a ragdoll. But also, what if in that moment when that dog is doing that, they need to deploy that canine because you you do have somebody that's resisting arrest. And so, say, what if they took off running and I need to send the the canine? Do when my dog's distracted by this little ankle biter that's sitting here trying to bite its ankles, it can't focus on doing its job. And to your point, you've it's distracting the canine handler, and and it's it's being a complete nuisance. So I I believe that officer was a hundred percent in the right, and yeah, he picked the least extreme. Yeah, your dog got I think it got a couple broken ribs, they said that'll heal, at least it's alive.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:10

Yeah, and when you look at that, I mean you have to take into again, we touched on it a little bit earlier, the difference in terms and definitions when it comes to legality standing or legal standing. One, in the law enforcement community, there is such a thing known as distractionary blows. And a lot of times that can appear as combative strikes that are meant with malicious intent, and they're not. It's usually used in that capacity when somebody is becoming or has become aggressive, and you're trying

Kicking Controversy: Protecting A K9

SPEAKER_01 1:35:45

to divert their attention so another officer can maintain or gain mechanical leverage or control over that person. Same thing with that dog, they gave opportunities and they made reasonable attempts, given the circumstances of the scene, to divert that dog away. That didn't work. So they punted the dog away. But what you will not see happen is the officer who kicked the dog pursue the dog, chase the dog, and continue to kick the dog. There was no malicious intent in that. That dude didn't wake up that morning, grab his coffee, stand on the porch, and look at the sunrise over the mountains and say, I'm gonna kick a fucking shih tzu today. He didn't do that. He maintained a safe scene, which is critical in any emergency response. And it doesn't matter if you're a first responder or a civilian, if you're rendering CPR first aid to somebody in the middle of Walmart and you work at Home Depot, third shift stock and shells, but you just happen to be CPR and AED certified, the very first thing they teach you, make sure the scene is safe. That scene was no longer safe because of that distraction, because of that dog that was uncontrolled, uncontained, untethered, and created a risk to the safety of not only the police canine, but the officers involved. We don't know anything about the suspect. You know, what if he had a weapon? What if he had his hand on his weapon and the ships dude was sitting here attacking, or this small dog, I'll say, is sitting here engaging the officers and distracting them. That could have cost, if that dude didn't kick that dog, if he didn't do what he had to to eliminate that dog from that scene, that could have cost human lives at the end of the day. So you have to really look at the lesser two evils. Again, with you, Michael, I do not advocate abuse on dogs. I'm a balanced trailer trainer. I use whatever means are necessary and safe for the dog. If the dog responds and needs compulsion training, I will do so. If the dog responds well and needs fluore training, I will do so. I'm not gonna I'm not going to maliciously hurt or harm a dog. But I also agree with you. If me and my dog are out and an uncontrolled animal comes and approaches it, either me or that animal, either me or my dog is gonna fix that situation. And for the dog's sake, you better hope it's me.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:22

Yeah. Yeah, we gotta protect our dogs.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:26

Yeah, and and and again, that goes back to building that that relationship, that relationship between canine and handler. I I have an obligation to my canine, and it is advocacy, whether that's hey, stay away or physically stepping in and and protecting that dog. And that applies really with with service dogs, more so. Like my my apprehension, canine. Oh shoot, 100%. I got I don't I I don't need to I need to advocate for the other dog more than I need to advocate for her because like she's very good with other dogs, but if you come at her, she will mess you up. But it it that's if we don't advocate for our dog and say like you let that persist, you're destroying your credibility with your canine. And in this situation, that and even service dog, that's your partner. That that's your ride or die. And I don't want to destroy credibility with my with my dog, with my partner. So I'm gonna stand up and I'm gonna advocate for them. Well, anybody got any last on on that before we we wrap it up?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:39

Nope. I just want to thank you guys for for having me on, for allowing me to be a part of your community, to be there as an advocate for you guys that have sacrificed so much. So thank you, man. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:54

Yeah, we appreciate everything you do, man, and and thank you for staying up and and joining us tonight. Chris, you got any last words before I close this out?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:03

Yeah, for those of you that don't know, uh Michael, our primary host, chooses to record these at like one o'clock in the morning. So it's really a service to the community. No, hey Joe, I appreciate you coming out. We got a lot of good opinions, a lot of good perspective. And I want you to know that civilian or not, what you're doing is just as much as a self-sacrifice and just as much as a service as anything that we've done as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:30

So thank you. And I look forward to to many years of friendship with the both of you.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:35

Oh, absolutely, dude. Well, so with that, guys, thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Talk Shit Get Fit podcast. I'm your host, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:44

Yeah, I'm your co host, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:46

And we will see you next time.