Using The Wrong Dog Tool Creates New Problems

You can buy every leash, collar, and gadget on the internet and still feel like your dog “isn’t listening.” We get into the uncomfortable truth: most problems people blame on stubborn dogs are really problems of poor fit, bad timing, and tools being used as shortcuts instead of communication.

We walk through the training tools owners ask about the most, starting with flat collars and leashes, then moving into slip leads, prong collars, chain collars, martingales, gentle leaders, harnesses, muzzles, and e-collars. We explain where each tool should sit on the dog, what a “fair correction” actually means, and why quality matters when you’re dealing with pressure on the neck or electronic stimulation. If you’ve ever wondered why a harness seems to make pulling worse, why a slip lead slides down and turns messy, or why your dog “ignores” an e-collar, we give you practical answers you can apply on the next walk.

Then we shift gears with a viral courtroom rant about police K9s allegedly having titanium reinforced teeth to cause more damage. We break down what titanium caps and implants are really for, why they’re often duller than natural teeth, and why protecting a working dog’s health is more like a bulletproof vest than a movie villain upgrade.

If this helped you rethink your setup, subscribe, share the episode with a dog owner who’s stuck, and leave a review so more people can train safely. What tool are you using right now, and what problem are you trying to solve?

Transcript

Welcome And Tool Roadmap

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the TalkShit Git Bit podcast. I'm your host, Michael Parker.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

And I'm your co-host, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Chris always has to have that long pause before he says his name. But yeah, today we're gonna we're gonna talk about various training tools and how to appropriately use them. So I don't know. I guess we can talk about a lot of the main ones. And I guess a good place to start is listing off various training tools, and then we can break that down. So you got like slip leashes, obviously regular leashes and a flat collar, harnesses, probably talk about some muzzles. I know we've kind of danced around some of these topics uh in previous episodes, but we'll just dedicate a whole episode to training tools. Uh, you got prong collars, e-collars, we can talk about martingales, all those different that still kind of falls under that slip collar. I don't know. I count Martingales along that slip leash, slip collar category. Any that I'm missing offhand that you want to discuss?

SPEAKER_03 2:01

No, I mean the I kind of agree with you. The Martingale, the slip, the chain, those are all pretty much the same. There's a couple different reasons that they're technically clad. They work the same mechanically, but there's a couple of benefits and cons to each of them. You've got some stuff like uh you mentioned muzzles like your anti-pull halter muzzles, stuff like that. Those are I'd like to cover those. I have a pretty strong opinion on those.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Oh, you're talking about gentle leaders?

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Oh, oh, oh, yeah, I forgot about that one. Yep. Yeah.

unknown 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

So we're gonna cover all of these and we'll talk about pros, cons, what we like, what we don't like, kind of just give you, you know,

Flat Collars And Proper Fit

SPEAKER_02 2:45

that that insight into that. I guess let's start with the simple tools, flat collars and uh and a and and a and a leash. I mean, a flat collar is exactly what it is. That's just like your regular like pet collar. It could be one of those flimsy ones, I say flimsy because you know they're usually pretty thin, that you get from a pet store or up to like a two-inch collar, like a tacticup collar, you know, one of those ones that we use for protection dogs. Oftentimes I just put them on my dog to look good because ours all have our brand on it. So I'll put it on there for that reason. But also, you know, having that two-inch collar, my one for my protection dog, has a handle in case I needed to do some bite work or grab her or something during that. But I think one of those things that people I mean, they're a good tool if you have control over your dog, right? Like I could take my dog and put her on a flat collar with a with a leash and be just fine versus you know a dog that pulls or is fearful. One of the biggest concerns and one of the biggest reasons we won't use a client's flat collar is most of the time they're too big. You know, they have them super loose on the dog to where, you know, if the dog decides to try to pull backwards, they can slip right out of it, and then now you gotta play catch with your dog. I think that's kind of one of those downsides. They're not good if you're trying to stop a behavior, you know, like give a leash pop. You can, but it's gonna be very dramatic to give an appropriate level of correction, a fair correction. So don't like using it for that. The leash aspect, God, that's that's a whole topic of itself. You want to talk about flat collars before I address the leash part?

SPEAKER_03 4:38

Yeah, so I agree. That's one of the things that I pointed out before. You know, we we've touched on experience versus certification. One of the primary schools that I have several of my certifications from trains exclusively on flat collars. And I do agree, it's it takes a lot more of a firm correction, a lot more pressure, a lot more power, a lot more effort into it to uh obtain the same result. We uh specifically start with slip leads, and I'll go, I mean, I'll go ahead and do a shout-out. We only use Raider canine slip leads, they're the only ones we recommend. We sell them, we use them. These the operation breach that you're a part of, he just sponsored uh breach, the service dog. So uh he's he's a veteran, he handmakes them at his home. Very, very good, very high quality stuff. But the key to them is because you can go to tractor supply and get a slip lead, you go to Walmart and get a slip lead, but they're that big, uh, round, goofy looking rope stuff. These are 550 cord, so they're thin and they really lock good behind the jaw and behind the ears. They stay in position, they're really good quality, and they hit that specific point that you need. You can issue a correction with very minimal effort, not have to worry about any kind of esophageal damage, you don't have to worry about any of that stuff because you're using the appropriate tool for the job. My dog's the same way, both of my primary dogs. I can issue a correction on a flat collar, but they're already trained.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah, I yeah, I mean, it's a great tool if your dog's already trained, right? Like, I mean, if if I'm taking my dog out off the leash, I'm gonna put my two-inch collar on her just in case, because I might need to grab a hold of something, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

When you mentioned oversized too, that is, I mean, that's a huge issue. A flat collar should sit the same place that a slip lead does. A flat collar should sit and stay behind the ears, behind the jaw, high on the neck, and you should just be able to fit, you know, the the flight of two fingers under it. Uh I don't understand. People call us all the time, they're like, Well, I use the harness because my dog slips his collar all the time. I'm like, if the collars properly fit, it's anatomically impossible for your dog to slip it because it's the neck is smaller than the head. So I don't understand. And they're then they get to arguing with me, and then they come in and do an e-bound, I show them how their collar is supposed to fit, and they're like, oh, that makes a lot more sense.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah, I mean I I keep my collar a little looser on my on my protection dog, right? Like I can fit four fingers under it so I can grab it, but then again, the only time my dog is wearing that is if I need to grab her or I'm doing some kind of bite work, but I'm holding it, right? So it's not gonna slip off. And even then, I rarely use it, it's more for decoration most of the time. And the dogs that we do send home that are on flat collars, they're e-collar trained, which is our primary tool that we're gonna we're gonna use, but we'll talk about e-collars later. You know, talk about the leash aspect and corrections, like you were saying, it's it's a lot harder and dramatic. With with a flat collar, kind of another thing on that too is I don't like using flat collars on on smaller dogs or or puppies, because if I go to pop the collar, then I'm gonna

Leashes That Help Or Hurt

SPEAKER_02 8:20

to give a fair correction with it, I'm gonna pop that dog halfway across the room, right? It's the it's not a good tool for for using for that. But then you get to the leash aspect and people want to get bungee leashes and stuff like that. Well, if you have a bungee leash, you can't give your dog a correction looking out for leashes that have a lot of give to them. I want something that's more rigid so that way when I do try to give a correction, it it's subtle and it's not like if I try to use a bungee leash, I'm gonna have to like rim my arm all the way out, super dramatic, to to to even make any kind of contact, which you know, perception is reality. Did I really just correct the crap out of my dog? No, but it looked like I did, right? And perception's reality, so not a good, not a good tool. Now, I do own a a bungee leash, and the only time I use it is for tactical situations, like I can clip it onto my plate carrier so my dog is on leash. So that way, if we're like running along or something, she can be right there with me. She has that little give, but again, she's really good at at staying with me, so that's why I'll I'll use it in that situation. But even then, I don't use it most of the time. She's either on my hip lead or off leash with just an e-collar. You kind of already talked about slip slip leashes. We get ours through we we use bio thane slip leashes, round tubular biothane slip leashes that we get from our our dog shop. What is it? Paw pack. Oh, let me make sure I don't mess it up. Paw pack dog shop. We use them for all of our branded leashes and slip

Slip Leads And Leash Pressure

SPEAKER_02 10:05

slip leashes, slip collars. Theirs work really well, like you were saying, staying up high. I definitely want to try out your guys' slip leashes, but they they a shout out to them, they make great slip leads, they stay up high. I've never had any issues with them coming down, you know, sliding down and not staying in position or you know, choking, but that's one of those concerns with the slip lead. Again, when it's up high, like you said, you don't have to worry about the the tracheal issues. However, a lot of people mess it up, right? I don't like just giving a slip leash to a client unless they really, really understand how to use it effectively, right? And that's the key to all of the training tools we're going to talk about is using them appropriately. Any of these tools can be great tools, but also they can be very dangerous, regardless of what it is, if you don't use it effectively and you don't use it correctly. And slip leashes are one of those where I don't like using them on I don't even with experience, I don't like using them on small dogs again because of just how small their throats are. Same with puppies. On that note, too, you know, we teach dogs how to give in to leash pressure. I don't like to teach giving into leash pressure with a slip leash, because especially if the dog's gonna try to fight it, because what's it what happens with that slip leash when they start pulling, it tightens. That's how it works. And if the dog's fighting that, now that dog's got we got that wrist of the dog chokes itself out, and I don't want that. That's not a good experience for the dog, not something I want happening. So I we won't teach them to give into to leash pressure with a slip leash. Generally, I'll use a prong to teach them how to give into to the to the leash pressure, and then once they understand that, then yeah, I can transition them to a slip leash because then it's safer at that point. I'll let you talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Yeah, so we do we do use a slip lead for leash pressure, but we're very cognizant on how we do it. So we reward the the instant, and it comes down to the timing with us, and that's something that I push my trainers really, really hard on is getting that timing down, Pat. So, you know, we'll we'll let the dog get distracted and then we'll start to just you know kneel down a little bit or lean back just a tear, just a hair. You know, as soon as the dog turns to look, because it's gonna look to investigate that pressure. So as soon as the dog turns to look, we'll we'll mark and report. Yes, good, good. And then we start to increase it a little bit and then a little bit and a little bit. We train the I'm I'm real big on say we train the dog in front of us, uh, which uh we've talked about before. We will use we always start with the least invasive measure available and then go up from there. However, there's certain circumstances like if the client is physically incapable of doing a correction in compulsion style, then we'll go ahead and implement the e-collar and we'll get that going. That's helped several people that I've worked with. If the dog's gonna be doing off-leash, well, then you need to do an e-collar because that's your only form of control off-leash. So, but you're right, the dog has to be acclimated. If you if you get mad at a dog for not sitting, but you've never effectively taught the dog how to sit, you have no right to be mad at the dog for not understanding it. And it's the exact same when it comes to tools. You can't just go to Tractor Supply or Pet Smart and buy a prong collar, throw it on your dog, and expect magic to happen. So you have to know how to use the tools. I've had I had a an older female client contact me one day and she was like, Hey, tell me real quick how to use a prong collar. And I was like, Well, it's not a real quick thing. So I actually put together like an 18-minute instructional video with you know, step by step walking through, showing on my dog, demonstrations, things like that, positioning, sizing, measuring, everything. And just uh make sure that even if she chose not to come train with us, she was at least you know being safe and effective with her dog. So she has since decided to train with us because of that video. But these some of these tools are a lot more elaborate than people people want to admit, and since

Prong Collars Done Safely

SPEAKER_03 14:45

we've kind of switched on to talking about prong collar, you want to take that one.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah, I was about to say good transition into prongs. Biggest thing with prong collars is well, I mean, there's a lot of aspects to that. I would say the biggest aspects is is sizing, getting the the right size e-collar or e-collar, prong collar for your dog, whether that's uh a micro, a 2.25, or 3.0, the quality of that prong, not all prongs are made the same. The only prongs we will use are Herm Springers. We actually exclusively use Katie's buckles, and no, we're not affiliated, so no affiliation there. But we've we we we use Katie's buckles because they have the buckle, it's easy for clients to use, especially when you we have a lot of older clients or disabled clients, makes it a lot easier, and it makes the the collars last longer because like 2.25s and and micros, sometimes those if you're taking those prongs uh on and off, they they bend and over time, and then you run the risk of them falling apart, right? So the buckle once it's set to size, all I gotta do is fasten that buckle every time unfasten it. But like you said, if you if you're not if you're not using the prong appropriately, it's dangerous. The all of these tools can be dangerous if used inappropriately. But the difference with with the prong and using it effectively and correctly, instead of having to give like it's always about giving a fair correction if I'm correcting the dog. The prong, giving I can give the same fair correction with a lot less effort. For example, if I a dog's on a flat collar and it's a dog that pulls really hard, to give it a fair correction, I'm gonna have to pop that collar really freaking hard where it's gonna look extreme and dramatic versus with the prong collar, I can just flick my wrist just a little bit, and just that little flick of the wrist is this equates to the same, right? So again, experience knowing how much pressure I need to give. A lot of our clients, the other thing I'll say is I'll kick it over to you and see if anything else pops up because I feel like there's some things to address, still other aspects to address. But one of the things is like again, where the eat where the prong collar sits. Clients will come in. Well, I my dog's on a prong collar, and it comes in and it's a necklace around their neck, you know, hanging way down here, loose as can be. They can slip it on and off over their head, and I'm like, Yeah, that's not working effectively. Let me take a couple links out of this and get it where it's sitting, and then all of a sudden the dog's like, Oh crap, I'm paying attention. You got my attention now. I'm like, Yeah, you know, like you got to make sure it's sized uh appropriately and you're using the right size prong. I'll I'll kick it over to you.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

Yeah, you gotta make sure it's the right size. Again, it's gonna sit in the same spot that the flat collar and the slip lead sit, so it should be high, should be behind the ear, should be behind the jaw. And on top of that, one thing that I will add, because you mentioned the deteriorating state of the prongs over time. Prong collars are notorious for slipping a link with a really active dog, especially if it spins. So, something that we teach is to go from the dead end of the collar and hook it with a backup to the flat collar. So you can just use a like a regular carabiner, it's like a dollar or Walmart. You can get one, throw it on there, hook it to the flat collar, and that way, if the prong collar does fall apart while you're training, at least you still have retention over the dog.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

So on that note too. On that note too, like paying attention when you put the this is something we tell our clients, make sure that you look at it, make sure everything's situated right before you put it on, because sometimes those prongs get turned weird, and then all you go to pop the leash or pop the yeah, pop the leash, and the whole prong falls off because you didn't make sure it was it was on there appropriately. We use safety straps, carabiners work too, but we use little short safety straps with clips, and you clip it to the prong and you clip it to the collar. It's literally what it says safety straps so your dog doesn't get away, should that prong break off.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

Right. And that is that's another alternative. The the carabiners just um yeah, I assume when people come to us and have questions about prong collars that they're they're probably gonna be more of a like a carabiner at Walmart person versus a specialty dog training and safety

Chain Collars And Martingales

SPEAKER_03 19:40

item. But what's your outlook on so we did slips, we did prongs? I have a very specific reason why we don't use chain collars, the chain choke collars. The the concept is the same as the other ones, it gives that mechanical feeling for you know a corrective nip on the neck. However, I have seen dogs anticipate the command based off of the clink clink sound of the chains. I've also seen them do that on pinch collars, but not nearly as much as a chain collar because there's so much extra length in the chain. What's your what's your outlook on on chain?

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Uh so when I got Levi, my service dog, he he was on a chain. That's what he was trained with. So that was that was my starting point. I think they make good backups, you know, like if you if you just needed to throw something on there, like taking your dog out off leash. I that's what I used to think. Now I don't even use them at all. And and the reason why is I kept it as a backup on my protection dog until one day it slipped up and it got caught in her mouth and was stuck, and I had to get it off and get it unstuck. So I'm I'm not a big fan of chains, and and to your to your point, like I want that tool to sit up high on the neck where it should be. There's not a stopper with chains to keep it where it needs to be. So it often slides down, and then if I pop that chain, I'm popping their throat. So again, back to those those potential throat issues. I'm not a big fan of it. I I think it's it has its place, and if you want to use it, I'm not saying you're wrong if you use one. I'm just personally don't like them. I've used them. I liked them for a while until I saw what could potentially happen, and I'm like, I don't want to risk anything happening. I I rather err on the side of caution and safety. So I'm not a big advocate for them, but I'm not against them.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Yeah, I'll keep one in my in my car just as a like you said, an emergency or a backup. But I think my biggest, aside from the training issue, I think my biggest.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

uh turnaway experience from chain collars is i was raising raising puppies and uh some of them had been dropped off with chain collars and not not any fault of the dog but i got so busy that i went out and checked i checked collars every week uh and i got so busy one time that i went out and checked the collar and the collar was not too tight like it wasn't choking the dog but it was tight enough that it would no longer fit over the head and I was like well that sucks so I had to get bolt cutters and cut the chain collar off and that's which I mean they were little tiny ones and so if they were easy but still that's not something you know a slip lead your dog gets snagged gets hung up flat collar your dog gets snagged gets hung up prong collar your dog gets snagged gets hung up you have options you know you can pop a link loose you can cut the slip you can cut the flat collar a chain collar i mean you don't have an option you have to get bolt cutters to cut that if your dog is hung up so I mean in in that case it's a safety and most people don't carry most people don't carry bolt cutters with them I carry a knife so I could cut a slip lead or anything like that but I don't carry bolt cutters on me on a day to day yeah no that is not part of my EDC what about so yeah Martin Gales I mean I'm familiar with Martin Gales I I don't have much to share on them because I've never personally used one and I mean there's a ton there's a ton of different collars that we're skipping over like the fur sabers and I agree with you on the prong by the way we only use Herm Springer they put a lot of research and science into spacing their links the right way but they've got Herm Springer also has the a flat one with like the the sharp teeth on it so they've got those they've got those inside of a flat collar they've they've got a ton of different collars so if you want to touch Martin Gill I mean you're you're welcome to I was about to say I mean it it kind of works similar to like using a slip leash I would say that's probably the best it's I would call it like a cross between a a a slip leash and a prong collar because it works very similar to a prong collar but with the function of a slip leash if that makes sense like there's there's not the prongs it just goes around the neck but there's the chain that tightens pretty much the only time we use those is like we'll we'll either use those or a slip collar when a dogs first get here and we're taking them out going potty that way they can't slip out not we don't really use them for training purposes it's just more like safety purposes so a dog doesn't get away especially a dog that we haven't built that communication system with and don't have that reliability and and connection with but they're they're they're not a bad tool they're they they work well again it it's really hard I think with those to find the right size to to where it's again it should sit up high on the neck if you're gonna use it for training it's hard to find a size that appropriately fits your dog so they tend to sit lower on the neck so they work great as like a backup so the dog doesn't get away I is what I would say. But

Why Gentle Leaders Risk Injury

SPEAKER_02 25:36

yeah I don't I I don't really use them for for training at all. I know you mentioned gentle leaders or whatever term you called them. I call we call them gentle leaders I guess we can talk about that next I will say this is the tool that I am the least a fan of I will never you will never catch me using a gentle leader on on a dog I'm sure you probably have more experience with them than I do so I'll let you kind of touch on their function and and use.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

Yeah I mean gentle leaders halters they're they're they're pretty much all the same the same concept I'm against them against same as you you'll never you'll never catch me using one I don't think that they they don't do anything to naturally communicate to the dog you know so the dog pulls it yanks its face down what in what what aspect have you ever seen that in real life and on top of that the massive risk of injury to the dog so a lot of people when they look at those and they start to criticize them they're like yeah you can't correct the dog on a on a gentle leader on a halter lead uh halter muzzle you're right you can't if you're using compulsion you cannot correct them because if you snap it it's gonna snap the head's the dog's head but what about if you're not correcting the dog what if the dog takes off running now instead of getting a correction and self-correcting the dog's face is yanked to the side and it's no different than jamming a bite dog. You know you can't there's I'm 110% against them I don't think that I don't think that they should ever be used. There's no place for them and they have absolutely zero communication properties.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yeah I it's it's the risk of using them like if if like you said the dog takes off or you use it inappropriately dude you're one you're gonna mess up their nose two there's the possibility of neck injuries like it's I I can't find any benefit to to using a gentle leader. People say oh it look looks less scary and har and harmless but I'm like yeah looks are deceiving that is a very dangerous piece of training tool I I'm just not a fan of them whatsoever. The same as those kind of similar to those the ones that I forget what they're called but they go around the front legs you know what I'm talking about? Yeah I can't think of what those go around the front legs and run up under yeah I'm like I I don't like those either I don't remember what they're called I've only seen them a couple times and I'm like yeah why don't you just teach your dog how to walk better. Why don't you just build communication with your dog and not have to use that that's I don't know it just looks awkward and painful

Harnesses And The Pulling Problem

SPEAKER_02 28:40

and I really don't see any benefit to it. It's a dangerous shortcut is what it is yeah yeah don't don't take shortcuts that kind of I think that's kind of leads into to harnesses which we've already kind of briefly talked about I'm gonna say there's three reasons why I would put a harness on a dog agitation a sled dog or a service dog which note on the service dog one I'm never hooking up to it it's just there to denote that my dog is a service dog even though legally my service dog does not have to wear any indication that's more for the idiots out there that can't leave my service dog alone which well I guess in some situations a a harness is needed you know mobility seeing eye dogs such forth but you know like psychiatric tasks and things like that my dog doesn't need a a harness but the people that put it on their well it's it's safer on the dog no it's not I've seen dogs literally choking themselves on a harness we trained this little dog one time and she had him on a harness and she's like well he kept choking on the flat collar I was like well he's choking on the harness he's still he's pulling probably twice as hard as he was on the that and he's literally sitting there choking because he's pulling himself I'm like you're not doing yourself any benefit using a harness and actually you're doing the opposite harnesses are made to encourage pulling I see these things about no pull harnesses and such forth I'm like the people that buy into that I'm like dude you guys need to do some research like dogs have what's called opposition reflex. So if I what that means is if I pull on them they're going to pull even harder I have no control over a dog that is on a harness that dog is in the driver's seat you have no control over it. Again that's why we use it for agitation and bite work is because I can pull back and guess what that dog does it's gonna pull in even harder so I'm using it there to encourage the dog to push in that's what I want but it with with a pet dog you know I'm not trying to fight my dog on every walk I go on by putting it on a harness and letting it drag me and then they want people want to be like well it just drags me everywhere. Well you have it on a harness step one take it off the harness even a flat collar would be better than a harness at that point. So yeah not not not a fan at all if you can't tell of harnesses either I put them below just below gentle leaders on my list of don't use tools yeah I would add one one reason to two harnesses to your list and that's tracking.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

Yes I was just thinking about that tracking or scent detection and and again that's where you want your dog to pull we get people all the time they come in with the pet dog clients and they're like yeah my dog's on a harness same thing my dog's on a harness it chokes itself on a flat collar or it slips the flat collar so it's on a harness and I don't understand why I can't get it to pull or stop pulling harnesses are designed to stay off of the points for dogs to allow them to comfortably pull look at sport white pulling dogs what do they wear harnesses sled dogs harnesses the all the dogs that their job is to pull shit they're in a harness so yeah it's I mean if you're putting your you know 20 pound or 40 pound lab in a harness it's probably gonna pull you the as far as the agitation we'll do the same thing but it's dog dependent the I worked a dog with bite work agitation and bike building today about this evening and we put the dog in a harness and it was properly fit. I fit it after we started messing with it and it was snapping at the end of the leash so hard and pulling that it was choking itself out on harness so that's where I use bungees. So I'll use uh either a spring chain or I'll use a bungee leash or a bungee line so they can get that that tension to shoot them forward into the the opposition reflex.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

But no I'm the same way I won't I have a harness for cooley but it's specifically for tracking yeah I I I have a couple different harnesses for Padme I've got an agitation harness I've got my tactical harness which I guess that would be the other situation uh my my Ray Allen it's got the clips so I can and I have clips on on my chest rig or not chest rig plate carrier so I can clip her in there if I needed to carry her along with the Swiss seat that attaches to it. So keep her rear end up so that way if you know I I'm doing need to carry her I can just clip her in and and carry her and go. But I'll also I keep it on her for like at night I've got IR light on it so I can keep track of her with the with the nods and see where she's at right but I again it's working dogs. Working dogs is pretty much the only reason that you like a working dog should be about the only reason you have a harness on your dog whether it's service dog protection dog sit detection tracking sled dog those those those are the only reasons that a harness should be on your dog or you're you got it on them trying to give them a workout pulling parachutes or one of them doggy sleds though those those

Muzzles, Types, And Conditioning

SPEAKER_02 34:35

are the only legit reasons to have a a harness on your dog. Muzzles I know we've kind of talked a little bit about about muzzles in the past with with like protection dogs and such forth that's not the only use for muzzles though and and there's there's so many different kinds you know you have agitation muzzles you have bite proof muzzles you have mesh muzzles throw some more out there basket muzzles muzzles for everything and making sure that if you're using a muscle you're using the right kind right I keep I keep basket muzzles and a couple different size mesh muzzles and like my emergency kit for my canines I I have three of the most common sizes of basket muzzle in there so I can throw a muzzle on them. That's more for like if there's an injury or something I can throw that on the dog because even if it's a dog that doesn't bite when it's in pain it might bite. So I'm gonna throw that on there for my safety the dog's safety other people's safety I keep a couple different size mesh muzzles just in case one of those basket muzzles doesn't work moving into like biteproof muzzles most commonly well I can use them for protection dogs right and and doing like bass doing muzzle fighting that kind of hurts a little bit getting smashed into by a metal biteproof muzzle. Generally though using the biteproof muzzles I'm doing I'm working with dogs that want to bite me and I'll put those on just for safety like if I know it's a dog that's a bite risk put that that biteproof muzzle on so I don't have to worry about it. I can still give them snacks and stuff through it snacks I can give them treats through it. It's a snack whatever agitation muzzles you got different kinds you got leather I think they make them out of other materials too all the the only ones I have are leather though. And those again are for for bite work protection dogs they allow the dog to breathe but also keep me safe if I'm working the dog to where I'm not gonna get bit. Same with any other tool though I got to make sure that it's sized right it's fit it right that it can't just slip off the dog's head. With muzzles there's the extra step of if the dog's gonna like say it's a dog that's gonna bite me or or such forth I have to condition the dog to wear the muzzle. So that's one of those those differences with that is you know if I just throw a muzzle on a dog that's never worn it before the first thing it's gonna do is try to rip its face off to get it off right so you got to condition and train the dog to to be okay wearing a muzzle. Now with that said in an emergency I can throw the muzzle on the dog but if it's like a protection dog or or a dog that's going to bite us like I will literally tell clients before they bring the dog I'll be like you need to get a biteproof muzzle. They have to pay for it and send it and they have to condition the dog to wear that muzzle before it even comes and then when they drop the dog off it's in the muzzle again just for safety reasons. I don't know I'm am I missing anything there?

SPEAKER_03 37:51

No I mean you you pretty much hit them I keep I do the same thing. So I'm my kit I've got two first aid kits in my vehicle one is in my like my get home bag the other one is in my dog box and then I've got a big first aid kit here at the Kennels and all three of them have the three main sizes of your your mesh muzzle they're small they fold up they're compact same thing if we're doing anything with the dog and it doesn't have to be trauma or emergency related I mean if you're gonna cut your dog's nails and you're you have a bite dog even if you know that dog it's probably a good idea to muzzle your dog because if you accidentally quick that dog it may bite you. I know that from experience and you want to make sure that you use the appropriate muzzle for that. So we had a bite dog that we didn't have a mesh muzzle we were still coming up we hadn't really gotten a bunch of stuff together but what I did have was a reinforced patrol muzzle so it had the metal bar in it and it was used for muzzle fighting and we went to cut a Dutch shepherd's nails that was explosive detection in a bite dog and we put that muzzle on her and she turned around and very very calmly after she got quick very calmly looked at the groomer and muzzle punched her right in the eye socket. So make sure that you use the right type of muzzle for the right type of job. You know if you have a dog you've got your wire basket muzzles too those are pretty pretty handy to keep on hand I think that with our some of our behavior modifications we haven't done that yet but I think it is something that we're we've discussed implementing the problem is is by the time most of our behavior mods come to us it's already at a point where the the owners are damn near not even able to get near the dog.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

But no I think you covered muzzles pretty well yeah I mean I on my plate carrier I have a canine first aid kit and then I have a drop pouch that a dangler pouch that I keep my leashes and I keep a biteproof muzzle in there you know again just in case of emergency but yeah make sure you're using the right muzzle for the right right job basket muzzles are not biteproof so yes they work for like FET visits and stuff like that but still keeping in mind that you know there's still the potential to get bit with a basket muzzle on yeah we started we started implementing that probably about seven eight months ago just because I got

E-Collars For Clear Communication

SPEAKER_02 40:35

tired of fighting off dogs that wanted to eat me and I was like yeah you just order your dog a a muzzle before it comes I mean I've been bit a few times and not a fan of it but it's kind of like it's part of the job but if I don't have to get bit I'm all about not getting bit so you know again my safety the dog safety everybody else around safety let's see what other tools are there are we we missing any e-collars we didn't talk about e-collars yet again another tool that can be great benefit but if you use it wrong you can do serious injury with it we personally use e-collar technologies the mini educator three what is it 300 that's that's the one we use we we like that they're not the most high end there's ones that are more expensive like dogtras are a little more expensive garments those also have the GPS function e-collar technologies is good middle of the road works very well but lower price point oh my gosh it it irks me when people are like oh yeah I'll be like hey we use e-collars and they're like oh yeah we have those for our dog and I'm like what brand and they're like sport dog or I don't know I got it from Walmart or Amazon and I'm like yeah no we're not using that I'm like it it has five levels you're frying the shit out of your dog like no the e-collar technologies go from zero to high which is a hundred so I can get that really fine-tuned accurate level and again we don't use e-collar as correction the way that we use it is for communication so it's like if I was trying to get Chris's attention and he's like zoned out I can tap him on the shoulder so that he's paying attention to me same thing with the dog it's just a way for the dog to know that I'm communicating with it. That's how we we use it. I know a lot of trainers that use it as a correction tool that's how we used to be until we learned that hey I can use this for communication instead and it works a lot better. Again if you're using it wrong you're damaging that relationship with the dog. One thing that we talk about is timing and consistency. If my timing is off and I'm I'm and I'm using the e-collar as a correction and I'm correcting the dog for doing the right thing and I'm correcting them too high I'm ruining any training and and even that relationship with that dog right so great benefit if used appropriately very detrimental if used wrong that kind of ties into the invisible fences not a fan of those those things are freaking terrible I worked on a ranch once and they had me put in one for the the ranch dogs. And of course they wanted to try it out and know what it it was like and it went from zero to five zero was just a tone and a vibrate one I was like okay I can kind of feel that bro I put I turned it up to two and it locked my whole entire arm up that the only way I could get like that collar out of my hand was I had to like with my arm numb throw the the collar up in the air and launched it about 40 feet in the The air, and I was like, oh my god, that's two. I don't want to know what five feels like. Like those things are those are terrible. I'd rather just teach my dog how to how to recall and boundary. Like, I can teach boundaries with an e-collar. I don't need that. Uh, like our yard is only like 75% fent fence fenced, but my dogs know where the boundaries are and they won't even go through the gaps because I've taught them again using e-collar. Hey, yep, nope, don't go that way. To where they'll run around or they'll go right to the edge, but they won't go past it because they know that's that's past the boundary that they're allowed to go to. So I don't need an offense like that, you know. Like my dogs understand the boundaries because I taught them that again through consistency.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

Yeah, and something that's important to note, especially for anyone who's listening that does working dogs. We've mentioned uh training logs, records, how they affect things in court. If you don't use the educator series e-collar, make sure that in your records or your notes that you state that you use an electronic trainer. E-collar is actually a trademark term and it's owned by educator, it's e-collar technologies. So, like we use that's something that we've had to I've had to start drilling into the handlers here because we use dog true so that's that's the one that we use exclusively. We don't recommend anything other than that. I don't have anything against the functionality of the educator series. What I don't like is the remote. I don't like circle. I don't like that if you have it on that lanyard. One, if you don't have it on a lanyard, that means that you're probably carrying it, which means that you've lost a hand. If it is on a lanyard, and I I did this one of my trainers earlier. Yeah, okay, so so he's holding it up, uh, he's holding the remote up. It's circular, it's on a swivel with a D-ring. The problem is if anything happens and it spins in your hand, your muscle memory prevents you from being able to find the difference between the boost button and the vibrate button.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

I I I I'm pretty familiar with this. I can hold it either way, and I know exactly where it is.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

You also work hundreds of dogs every month.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

So normal, a normal person.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

A normal person, yeah. But I don't even like I don't even like the lanyard because then people just hang it around their neck, and I'm like, well, we're using it for communication, so it really should be in your hand. Yeah. So you can communicate. Again, though, like I have it on my dogs. I have the level of communication with my dogs that they listen when I tell them anything, because again, thousands of hours of training into them. But even then, sometimes, like, my protection dog, bomb dog, wants to be an asshole and not listen to me. So I gotta grab the remote, be like, hey, or if she's starting to fix it, hey, pay attention. Or she's on a bite and she's not, I tell her to out and she I I can tap it, be like, hey, out. And she'll be like, oh, okay, yeah, sorry, I I wasn't listening. But again, she's fixated on the bite and taking down that that target. So again, I can use this as like a poke, like, hey, I don't use a breaker bar or anything like that to get her to out. I just use the e-collar and until she's like, oh, until she hears me. But yeah, no, I I don't like the round. The only the only nice thing about the round aspect is like in a tactical situation, it fits perfectly in a grenade pouch. So I use the grenade pouch to hold my uh my e-collar remote. But yeah, I'm not a fan of the lanyard. That's why I put like a ring that you would use for keys and attach a carabiner to it so that way I can clip it to my belt and then it's right there. I don't like things hanging around my neck. I think Doctras are good. What used to be my only thing about them is like the Doctrine ones that we had are now older models, and they didn't have a light. That's one of the benefits to e-collar technology, is it has the light, but some of the newer models of Doctra actually have lights built into them now. Chris taught me that, so I'll give him the credit. But I don't know, the the remote's weird to me. That is beneficial too. That is nice versus the e-collar technologies, which has these round proportions. If you lose a charger, yeah, if you use those chargers and you or you lose those chargers, now I gotta order them.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

And about how the first time the Amazon knockoff ones don't work. So you gotta order it from e-collar technologies about three-quarters of the time. It's yeah, the the only reason that I upgraded to the new version of the dog shirt is specifically because of the type C charger. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Which is it's handy because you always have phone, pretty much all phones are on a type C charger now, so you can just plug it into your phone charger. Everybody's got one of those around, so that is a nice benefit. I I will say though, e-collar technologies, their customer service is really good. We've had some issues with like one of mine, the the battery just wouldn't stay charged, and they sent me a replacement battery to replace it, and it was really easy to swap out, take a couple screws out, take the old battery out, hook up the new one, bam, go about it. But again, those that's what happens when you pay for a good quality e-collar versus getting a sport dog or something off of Amazon or Walmart, you know, that's you you get what you pay for when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_03 49:56

Oh, that's another that was a big thing with the uh the the random ones on Amazon too. I don't remember the specific brand. There was like two or three of them, they were made in the same factory. And I warn my clients about this all the time. Your your training tools are a buy ones, cry ones kind of thing. So is the dog true, you know, 200, 220 bucks? Yes. Is the I mean, what's a what's a mini educator going for these days?

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Probably about the same, especially with the we always upgrade to the the collars with the with the buckle and the bungee. Yeah, we won't we won't get the regular ones because clients will mess up the size all the time and they'll be like, it's not working, and it's a necklace around the dog's neck. And I'm like, well, it's not making contact. So of course it's not. Whereas like the bungee, it's the right tightness, but it also flexes with the dog's neck, and then the buckle, you don't have to worry about changing the size. So I think it runs us probably like 230 with that upgrade.

SPEAKER_03 50:57

Yeah, so can't again can you get on Amazon and get one for 20 bucks? Yeah, 100%. But one, you've got the inconsistency in the level, like you said, one could you can't even feel it, two may lock your whole body up. But the biggest issue is not too long ago, there were several of the models that the quality control from those factories is so minimal that the lithium points inside of them were shifting when the dog would move and shake its head, and they would shift and end up exploding on the dog's neck. So think about it that way. When you look at stuff like your electronic trainers, things like that, do you want to spend 20 bucks and potentially have an IED on your dog's neck, or do you want to go ahead and just spend 200 bucks and legitimately never have to worry about it again?

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah, it's it's it's one of those that it's worth investing in, especially if

Fit, Skin Safety, And Tool Quality

SPEAKER_02 51:55

you're using it effectively. Yeah, and to that point, though, another thing to look out for, regardless of what brand you're using, is you know, pressure sores. This is why we all we always warn our clients, one, that it's not too tight, but also, you know, making sure you're taking it off, giving the dog breaks from it, and rotating. So if it's on the right side of their neck one day, put it on the left side the next day. So that way it's not constantly in the same spot putting pressure. We've also seen you got to pay attention to the contact points. Dogs have allergies just like us. Some of them are allergic to certain materials. You got to make sure that I'm paying it that we're paying attention and that they have the right kind of contact points on. And again, like a long-haired dog is gonna need wingtips versus the regular contact points because they're not gonna make contact appropriately. Short-haired dogs, they make contact points specifically for that. They have those hyperallogenic points for dogs that have the allergies, so making sure that you have the right points on there so you're not hurting your dog. We always warn our clients like, yeah, the they're waterproof, the collars are, so you can take your dog swimming. We do it all the time. Take my dog swimming, let it be off-leash, and I can still, you know, call it back and such, but don't keep it on there what when they're wet, because that's another way to have those issues. So, again, great tool, but if you're using it wrong, you can really mess up your dog. And I think that's the consistent thing with all the training tools. Like there's pros and cons to every training tool, and you have to know how to effectively use it. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

And we do the same thing, we teach to switch back and forth. We place the e-collar the right behind the ear on either side instead of you know on the side of the neck or on the the throat where most of the manuals will tell you to put it.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

So it's either right here or right right there, kind of on on a person where that that pressure point is. What is what is that pressure point?

SPEAKER_03 54:07

Yeah, it's the you know, when you grab your grab your kid out in public on that shoulder muscle, that little pressure point up there, and you're like, man, we too when we get home, I'm gonna get yeah, that's the same concept when we when we're tapping on that shoulder. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

But yeah, man, I think that's I think we covered pretty much all of the the main training tools. And and you know, if you are using any training tools and you you're you're not sure if you're using them appropriately, find a trainer that knows what they're talking about, knows how to appropriately use those those tools. And again, experience over certification, just because they're a certified trainer doesn't mean that they have the experience in those tools. Like make sure you're getting good sound advice and and using whatever training tools appropriately.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

Uh something on that real quick before we we move forward. When you when you meet your trainer, make sure that their experience matches what your goals are. I've met uh two different trainers recently that have come and talked to me, and uh they've trained plenty of dogs. They weren't a good fit for for me or for my team. And that was very, very evident, you know, talking to them, yeah, sounded great. Yeah, I mean, all the answers were right, everything was good. And then I said, cool, let's go grab a dog. And we grabbed one of the Kennel dogs, and we went out and started working on them, and it was very apparent that that certification spoke way louder than the ability. So it's you really need to make sure that that specific trainer can show you what they what they made.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

Yeah, for for sure. And you know, we went through this recently. We we hired another trainer, again, looked looked good on paper, looked good in conversations, and then just was not a good fit. Like, sure, she had plenty of training under her belt, but the experience just didn't match up with what we were looking for for our team and along with other traits. But you know, she she didn't have the experience in the areas that we we have and that that we need, and and communication is a huge part, like me handing you an e-collar saying your dog's e-collar trained. Here you go, good luck. Well, I didn't didn't teach you how to use it. Like we extensively teach our clients before the dog even goes home. We do two to three training sessions with the client before the dog even goes home, so that they can start learning all of the things that we've taught their dog. And then we have sessions on the back end if they're struggling. So we can make sure that everything transitions over. I have sheets that I send them with all the information because it's a lot to try to remember and take in. But then they have those cheat sheets with the notes of okay, this is what this looks like, this is what that looks like, this is how I do this, this is how I do that, and they have that at their disposal so that they can have that success going forward. But yeah, so let's let's shift gears and let's let's

The Titanium Teeth Courtroom Myth

SPEAKER_02 57:30

talk about our our topic for the night. You you found this one, so lead us off.

SPEAKER_03 57:35

Actually, I think that you should play the video that way they can hear at least a portion of it so they can kind of have some concept of what we're we're dealing with. The the video is an attorney speaking about a situation with his client, and it really it's humorous from having knowledge with dogs, and this is exactly why attorneys bring expert witnesses into cases because of just absolute asinine goofy stuff like this.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

All right, and uh warning there is a lot of profanity in this video, and this is the attorney speaking, so I'm gonna go ahead and go ahead and play that for you.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Like my guy shows me uh his chest, and he's got these big holes in them, and and he's telling me, yeah, man, when the dogs drag me out. Oh, they had titanium enforced teeth. And I didn't think about it much, and then on my way home that day from the courthouse, I'm like, why the fuck do dogs have titanium enforced teeth for the cops? Why? It's like, okay, paid off. You know, now you can completely thread this man's testicles from his body for titanium enforced teeth. That's the tax dollars going on a dog's teeth. And why? Like, I don't want dogs to have like dental pain, but uh, believe me, I know. But why do they have titanium reinforced teeth? Why? So they can spread people from one limb to another so they can go out and kill titans. What the fuck does a dog need titanium teeth for in any setting? So they can go and drag this guy's a half out of half. You probably had a common, okay? Maybe there's a hostage situation going on, maybe there's not. But the titanium reinforced teeth. Why? Like who is that? Like who went back to that you know you know our dogs are ripping people up hard enough. What what did you know for uh you know how to over here? I think he did a little bit of dental pain. Let's get those teeth reinforced with some titanium. Yeah, that way he won't hurt my meanwhile, human beings have holes that you can see their ribs on. I I don't understand the titanium teeth. I don't understand it. I don't. I'm a taxpayer. I don't want that. So my my guy shows me.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

Oh my god. I'm gonna let you go first because all I gotta say is this dude's a fucking idiot. And why is he an attorney? But I'll I'll pass that on. I'll I'll I'll let you talk about it first.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:18

Yeah, so I that is one of the few videos recently that I've watched a couple times in a row and been speechless every time. And you know, looking at it, it I don't understand why I'm speechless because if you're not familiar with dogs, then you wouldn't understand that. But you're right. I mean, being what would appear what I'm going to assume is a defense attorney, then you should probably have some basic understanding of procedure and standard operations. So titanium is used in apprehension and protection dogs for dogs that have either gotten an injury to a tooth, lost a tooth, or uh in more rare cases, uh people that want to prevent that, so they just go ahead and put the titanium on there in the first place. More often than not, it's to replace a tooth or to repair an injury, so they'll cap it, or they'll do a dental implant. They use titanium because it's biocompatible. The body doesn't recognize it as a foreign object, so it doesn't reject it. You don't have bone issues, you don't have any kind of infection issues. Uh you don't need very much tooth to hold on to titanium if they are gonna cap it. It regulates temperature better, so it's healthier for the dog. To defend the fact that he says, Hey, you know, why so this this dog now has titanium teeth, so he can absolutely shred my client, specifically his client's testicles for some reason, even though the holes were in his chest. Titanium implants and titanium caps both more often than not are duller than the actual tooth was. So that would be the equivalent of me stabbing you with a spoon versus a fork. One of those two things is gonna cause less damage. So yes, they're strong. No, they're not being put on there to weaponize. Yes, they are expensive, however, you have to look at the average cost of a trained and certified patrol canine and not only the cost, but the net value of that dog. A lot of people overlook the net value of the dog. So you're gonna pay anywhere from 20 to 60 grand for an apprehension dog for your department, then you're gonna pay an insurance premium, then you're gonna pay a handler for his schooling, then you're gonna pay for certifications, then you're gonna pay for equipment. That's a very large investment for a department.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

Not to mention the experience of that dog once it's been on the street for a while.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

Not to mention the experience and the value, but once you start getting into net worth, how much if that's a if that's a full service dog and it's also done, you know, narcotics detection, how much dope in street value has that dog been responsible for pulling off the street? Some of these buss these dogs are doing are in the millions. So you have a $40,000 dog, another $25,000 investment into the dog, put because the the handler has to get a stipend, there has to be vehicle upgrades, there has to be heat monitors, has to put everything in there. And then your dog is pulling millions of dollars of dope off the street every year, and you're worried as a taxpayer about making sure that that asset's protected. That is no different than saying, Hey, why the fuck are our police officers walking around in bulletproof vests? It's the exact same thing. Or why are we putting red dots on on patrol officers' pistols now? It's because it's a liability reduction. You can acquire a target with a red dot more accurately and quickly than iron sights. That's why it's there. The titanium teeth, the titanium caps, they enhance the dog's ability.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:07

So I'm sure you you probably have a better answer to this to this than I do, but like what is the cost of getting titanium implants or or caps? That's something I don't have a lot of experience with, so I'm sure you have a better answer.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:21

It really just depends on if you're getting the implants or if you're getting the caps, and it depends on you know where you're at, what you're doing. We had we had an individual that had a protection dog when I was in school that the during training the dog ended up breaking a tooth, and he was like, eh, no big deal. I'll just put the I'll just get them capped. I think he spent like nine grand, but that's also in like the Atlanta area. So if you're looking at a crown, I mean you're looking anywhere from like 1500 to 5 grand, probably. And if you're doing a full-blown implant, then you're gonna be looking anywhere from two grand to probably nine or ten grand, but you also have to take in the cost of like anesthesia and everything else that's gonna be tacked onto that. So I would say probably safe zone, probably $3,500 for a cap and probably $10,000 for an implant.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

So it's it's it's a pretty hefty, you know, price. But again, that's a $40,000, $50,000 dog plus the investments and you know that value that that dog has brought to the team. God, I'm just like, oh, it killed me when he's like, why? So they can go kill fucking chickens. I'm like, you're a fucking idiot, dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

Like Yeah, that's a first off, it shouldn't be his primary purpose.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:44

Yeah, like that police canine is not out there killing chickens. I I promise you that, or it shouldn't be. But yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with that. It's protecting that asset, I think you said the same as as a bulletproof vest or you know modernize weaponry I'm just like dude like before you start spewing some bullshit that you don't have any knowledge on like maybe do some research and and don't be ignorant yeah like titanium's not as as sharp as as their teeth and you know even without that dude that dog's gonna do some damage if it bites even if it didn't have titanium and for reinforced teeth like my dog will will completely mess you up and she's got regular teeth like it's the it's the bite force and and all of all those aspects that you got to take into consideration like no it's not so that as he said Adolf can go out here and rip off people's testicles I'm like he could do that with regular teeth I promise you it it's about protecting that that asset and really that has no bearing on that case I'm like you're just trying to throw out stuff that you have no idea about maybe tell your client not to be a dumbass and make them send dogs on him like it's not gonna be a good day regardless for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:04

Yeah if that if the other counsel were to call in if he took that to to court and the other counsel called in an expert witness he would absolutely be shredded in that courtroom for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

Yeah surprisingly that that attorney is in Texas that caught me a little off guard. I was like oh I didn't I didn't expect that out of Texas. Must be from around Houston um yeah or Austin. But yeah I the titanium reinforced teeth that doesn't make your dog more intense it's it just protects your dog from potential injuries because their teeth you know can get worn down over time just naturally or heaven forbid it gets stuck and like breaks a tooth it's it's about protecting

Final Advice And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_02 1:07:50

that asset. Like yeah I if I had to I would do that for my dog like I I I'd rather not because I don't want to spend that kind of money on teeth but if I needed to then yeah I I I sure as heck would but yeah I guess it's the the the important part to note there is don't be an idiot. Don't be ignorant do your research before you try to blast some stuff that you have no knowledge or experience on. But yeah that's I I guess that's that's it. And we appreciate you guys tuning in and we'll we'll talk to you next week.