Jack Scott | From Addiction to Elite Athlete: How Running Transformed His Life Forever | EP 5

A raw, honest and powerful conversation with Jack Scott- One of the World’s best ultra-endurance athletes.

From rock bottom with a gambling addiction to the top of the running world- Jack’s story is inspirational. 

In their conversation, Lewis & Jack explore:

🔵 Gambling addiction to elite ultra-runner — and the reality behind that shift

🔵 The epiphany on a run that changed the direction of his life forever

🔵 How running became the outlet that rebuilt his identity

🔵 The decisive moment during the 2024 Spine Race that led to a record-breaking run

🔵 How addiction doesn’t disappear… it often just changes form

🔵 The risks of becoming too tied to one identity or outcome

📖 Jack's book recommendation: From One Extreme to the Other by Mike Hartley.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Absolute uh roller coaster and it was exhausting. Didn't feel any self-worth. The only thing that was that was that was real was being at work with Scott, learning something, being with Jess and feeling natural connection and that love life.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

And you were with Jess at the stage. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

The one thing I didn't do was touch the money that we had for the house. Just that product with Jess.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

We've obviously got a result which will be broken for a while. I made the decision to race again. Jack, thank you very much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Thanks for the invite up north.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Yeah. Well, you're from up north, but we're even further north.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Yes, depends where the southerners draw the line, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Um and just a little bit of chat off um off camera. You're talking about I think I've been up here for a training run before.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

So I just asked you, you know, training run for the Southern Upland Way, how long's that? And you casually said, oh, about 100k after working on Friday.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah, yeah, I was working in Preston. Um I was working in Preston, drove up to maybe I left the car in Preston, got a train to Lockerby, taxi from Lockerbie to Moffat, and then ran 100k through the n through the night to somewhere else. And then passed through Edinburgh on the way home on the trip. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Well, listen, thanks so much for coming on. There's a lot of things selfishly I want to pick your brains about. Um, because I've watched your journey over the last few years, yeah, and two biggest questions in my head are always, how's he done that and why has he done that? So we can kind of get into that. That's fair enough, yeah. Um but a lot of people from the running community, trail run community will know who you are, seeing some of your accolades and records and things. A lot of our audience maybe don't. So introducing Jack Scott, how'd you introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Um, it's interesting. Uh uh well, I'm 31 years old, from Stone, Staffordshire, um, between Stafford and Stoke on Trent. Uh found my feet in the world in my early 20s, discovered running after a more difficult period of my life, and then um it evolved into something brutal, beautiful, horrible, amazing. All the different characteristics and emotions you can imagine, which is you know, life life on a plate, it's exactly the same. And I'm still still figuring it out now. Just yeah. I mean I've I've been running for eight years, so I'm 31, so there is a story before I was a runner. Um and to be honest, I you know we'll we'll touch on this, but I don't want to be like a one-dimensional athlete or runner. Uh I like to think there's a couple of different strings to my bow which I've chosen to hold on to, and we'll continue to do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Yeah, brilliant. Um, and we'll cover a lot of ground in terms of the journey and some of the the famous races that you've broken records for and some of the journey there. But let's go back to like before the running. You kind of said there's a story there, and I've I've read you talking about it before and seen you talking about before very openly and vulnerable in terms of that journey before running.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Can you talk a little bit around that? And I guess maybe just what that looked like even prior to then, what childhood looked like for you, some of your core memories, and then taking you into some of that that tougher chapter in your your life as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah, that's cool. Um, so I mean, childhood was a sort of um safe environment, but it was certainly like an open door, it was a little bit of a wild west. I could I could do what I want, which meant good and bad. Maybe I excelled in uh riding a motorbike when I was nine years old, when I shouldn't have been doing that. Or um my dad's a really interesting character. Um my dad's a sort of guy, and and I've I've I've had to use this, and then since using this characteristic, I've I've like adopted it every now and then. But when I was a young man, I used it all the time. My dad's like a survivor, so um he will get out of situations, he will he will manipulate, he will survive, he will somehow land on his feet. Um, and that's that's quite interesting. That's probably one of my dad's my dad's full of energy. My dad is very, very unique and different and beautiful in his own way, but his characteristic is is is like uh he's he's kind and he's caring and he's he's he's religious, um, and he's a survivor. And then my mum is my mum is caring, my mum is strong, my mum can be aggressive and passionate and purposeful. Um so a mix of mix of characteristics from from my parents and I've got a sister um who means the world to me as well. She's she she lives around the corner, she's she's she's an awesome, awesome soul. And yeah, we we we we got away with murder when we were kids. We we did stupid, uh dangerous stuff that were was unpredictable. And to be honest, when I grew into like a young adult, I could I could do what I want, like whether that was with just sort of like uh alcohol or adventures or just the door was open. I don't think they they meant us to make our own mistakes, but we we we really had a clean canvas to just sort of do whatever we wanted. Like, you know, I was going to school, yeah. I was I was I'd like to think I was popular at school, I was the the football captain, I was sort of Jack the lad. I don't think I was being someone I wasn't, I was just being who I was just just bouncing around, breaking rules, getting into trouble. Uh wasn't the most intelligent, wasn't physically excelling in anything, just just a lad who was was popular and was behaving like a bit of an idiot, I suppose. Yeah, to be fair.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

No, it's a it's an amazing uh background. And what's if you reflect now on who you've become and that journey, how easy is it to answer who you're more similar to? Or do you feel like you're you see yourself and both your parents and um running gave me the clarity to to dip into these characteristics and these memories, you know?

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Everyone's got a story, I'm not gonna lay my life out in a million pages here, but I I understood who I was when I was when I was running, and then I handpicked the characteristics that I'd been served up, and then I mean I feel like I'm even creating my own now that maybe my family have never shown, basically. Yeah, um the one thing that's always stood out to me is is like a strong male presence or a strong successful family leader. Um there's a couple there's a couple i i in my life, and my dad isn't necessarily that that person to be honest. Um maybe we'll touch on the people who are, but that that's always like loyalty, trust, um, and like a a stern backbone of things that have always attracted me to.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

And who is that then? Like who who was that?

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Yeah, so when I met when I met my wife, um Jess, who I've been with for a very, very long time, since we were 16, I sort of, you know, I got I got to know her family, I got to know her side of the family, and and her dad, Stuart, just held together the family, worked hard, found a way through, and protected his family, to be fair. Um, and I and I I like that and I appreciate that. And that that that's what every every dad, every dad should do. They should they should have that that characteristic. And then even um when I when I started construction, I was um I was a sort of an apprentice for a guy called Scott who's now the the big boss, he was a dear friend of mine, and just the way the contrast of the way he was behaving, he was living, and and he was just stable and secure, and he just nothing fazed him, he he was just just a normal guy. Uh growing up I wasn't around a normal guy, and I think I longed to the normal guy as I was transitioning from you know a gambler to an athlete.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Yeah. You kind of s said it there in terms of maybe there was uh does it feel like almost the two gentlemen you've talked about there in hindsight now, did have they almost stepped into a space that you didn't know was uh Um no they've not stepped in, they've not done anything untoward.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

I've just looked at them in in a in a different way, and I want to be a mix of you know, like I've said my dad is energetic, my dad is my dad is bold, my dad is proud, but I don't I like the security and the safety and the like my dad, I'm sure my dad put the family first and and provided for us in a different way that maybe I couldn't see or realise. But coming into the into the world, um there was the there's different there's there's huge things that I do differently that I was I was exposed to when I was younger, and it set a precedent for who I am now, and I'm not I'm I'm not scared or worried about that. I'm proud of who I am, and I've I've been to the bottom and it ain't very nice, but I like moving forward, I I do um pride myself on, you know, if this is if this is the nucleus, if this is the middle, this is who you're born to be, who you are, whatever it may be, you know, there's gotta be a point where you branch out, you look at these other things, and you you you can adapt that and you can cheat the system. And I feel like maybe I've cheated the system a little bit and just listening and learning from how other people are doing it. Yeah. Just just living the lives is fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

You kind of said it yourself though, in terms of you you feel that you've been to the bottom.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Can we explore that a little bit and how that how that came about and that journey?

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yeah, so I mean, I've I was, and I'm the the recovery stage of gambling is always moving, you know, same with alcohol, drugs, eating, whatever you might be into. Um yeah, so I was a gambling addict from probably the age of 16, really. I mean, I know the legal age is 18, but I was I was I was gambling before um the government wanted me to. Um, yeah, so I was I was exposed to that when I was younger. Like at my my dad's house, for example, we've got like a snooker table, we've got a bar set up, we've got like we had like a gambling machine in the corner, and I'm I I would have been eight, nine, ten, like pressing like these gambling machines, like you put two pounds in, you can only win two pounds. Yeah. But like I was exposed to that when I was like nine. Yeah. And I like that ain't right, that ain't normal in my opinion. But that that's that's the way it was for us, for me and Jess. Um so that those and I was like, oh, this is a fancy machine that makes noises, that has flashing lights, that like is fun, and that as I grew into as I grew into a young man, I couldn't differentiate between like risk or fun, or it was just I've a not that I've only ever known this, but it's like this is this is fine, this is normal, um, which was really difficult. So gambling took hold of me when I was 16, 17.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

How does that first happen in terms of the proper moving from uh you know the fruit machines and what you saw in the house to actually putting money down? What's the first step into that?

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Um to be honest, I think it was uh like a lack of like a lack of hope and a lack of education. Like I I came out of school with with just basic, you know, but I was maybe relying on sport a little bit. I didn't really have a plan at all. I the one thing that I did have is like hard work. Like my family, like again, my dad's a my dad's a survivor, my mum is my mum is a grafter and she she survived illness when she was my uh she was my age now. She she she got really ill, she survived, she came through. But I want I don't want to just be a survivor, I want to be, I want to, I want to have success. You know, I want to I want to explore different elements of of life and different elements of of the world, not just be a survivor as a as a baseline. Um so I'd I'd say I was gambling to try and earn more money and produce a better life for myself, to be fair. Like, you know, I was on minimum wage working in shops in Stone, in town, working in pubs, you know. I I soon got out of control walking into the the bookmakers, so I banned myself, you know, after multiple um transactions. So I chopped the head off the snake there, um, after again, a very long time, but then the world of the online gambling came in uh and that completely engulfed me. And the one thing that's really interesting about that is there's no there's no relationship. So let's say you work in Ladbrooks and Stone, I'm going in every day, and like if I'm earning£100 a week, realistically, I I I would risk£85 of that. So 85% of my income was was getting risked um for a for a bigger and better thing. Sounds ridiculous now, but when you're in the eye of the storm, you've got you can't you can't keep control of that. But going into a shop and having that transaction with Carol behind the tail or Malcolm behind the till, you know, it's a physically handing over money or you're physically doing something. When the world of the online gambling came in, just at the wrong time for me, you know. So we're talking, I would have been 18, 19, um, already been in the in the gambling scene for like two years, um, that just the the emotion and the the connection with what you're doing, like if you first bet on the a horse, if you're looking at the Grand National and you bet on a horse because it's called uh what would it be called? Like my dog's called Winnie. So if the if the horse is called Winnie Star, it's like, oh well I'll have a bet on that. Like due to lack of intelligence from from me, like and lack of education, that just spowed out control. And it can be it can be that pinpoint that starts something, all of a sudden the ball's rolling downhill. Similar to to me, I mean, I don't know your running background, but the first time you realise you could run a mile, so well, I want to run 10 miles, and then I want to run 100, and we'll talk about control and that. But when when something um when there's a connection and it makes you feel good and the risk is low, you will you want more of it, of course. We we're human beings.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Um yeah, my so mine spiral out of control, and the the online stuff lasted a very long time, and um within maybe say the last 18 months of it, there was just there wasn't even chasing losses, there wasn't even chasing money, it was just like going to the toilet or having a drink of water or blinking. It was there was something I've got to do this because this is who I am. Yeah, I've got to put five quid on this or like and the the lowest point for me again, we're not we're not gonna talk about financial transactions, but I was I gambled on the Dutch election in 2017, maybe and like what I haven't got I haven't got a clue what's like You're not a Dutch politician actually I thought maybe I could make£12 or whatever like that's how like emotionless it was for me.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Um can you can you get yourself into like almost how what your into your mind back then?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Or was it yeah I can yeah I can get into it, yeah. Like what was it like I'd gone beyond the cusp, I've gone uh beyond the cusp of repair, and it was damage damage limitation uh for me, and it was only gonna end one way to be honest. So talk about my wife, uh who is you know, I've been with my wife for we've been married for four years, been with her for 15 years. Like some of this was my my behaviour in the way I was gambling was my behaviour as well. I was sporadic, I was amazing, I was horrible, I was vile, I was you know, there was alcohol involved, I wasn't looking after myself. The way I was gambling was the way I was living my life. It was it was absolute uh roller coaster and it was exhausting and it was extremely, you know, I didn't feel any self-worth.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

And you were with Jess at the stage, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

And like hiding, hiding, yeah, you know, like telling lies, living a lie as a young man, really, really difficult. And at the same time, remember, I'm I'm you know, I'm integrated in her family and I'm seeing Stuart, yeah, and I'm seeing this man who's like living and controlling his family and is successful, and like not after not after accolades or not, just like a proper man. Yeah, and like Scott at work at the time at my time of need, Scott at work was the most crucial thing. He didn't even know about it. Yeah, he just being next to him, being with him, he was teaching me a trade, he was teaching me how to behave without because I was just like I was so vulnerable, yeah, that when I was around someone that I perceived as successful and stable and normal, I was craving to be normal. Yeah, I couldn't do it. Yeah, it took me a very, very long time. You know, if we're talking like that, like 85% of wages or 85% of who you are as a gambler, um, we we were saving for a house and we we were um trying to move forward with with our life and move out. Like the one thing I didn't do was touch the money that we had for the house. And I know there's stories about people horror stories of people like I begged and I cheated and I lied and I stealed to gamble, but I did not jeopardise just that product with Jess. I'm proud of that, yeah. But and it just shows that Jess was the only shining light that uh to put this lightly definitely kept me out of prison and probably kept me alive. I'm not saying that there was like I would have done something stupid, but my self-worth was there was some mornings that I just couldn't, I just couldn't um uh what's the word? I couldn't operate. When you say keep out of I was in a grey space that I couldn't break out of.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

When you say keep you out of prison, was that because the gambling was leading to again you kind of said there it grabs a hold of your personality and you've got highs and lows, and you're kind of everything's almost you know emphasized in terms of those emotions. How do you talk to me a little bit around you?

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Well, another really interesting um development with this, and I realised this early on, and this was bad. When I drank, I didn't gam I didn't gamble. Okay. So you can imagine what that was like. So, like, you know, on a Friday, like if I'd had a bad week gambling, again, like the I'll I'll explain this point before I get ahead of myself. So, you know, if I'd have had a bad week gambling or a good week, I'd have a drink, I might have a drink with Jess on a Friday night with friends, then I might meet my mate in the pub on a Saturday, and like I'd like protect myself by drinking, like you know, and uh and I like being a social scene, I'd drink, and I would I just wouldn't think about gambling, I'd just like sink into my chair and relax, and just you know, I'm still uh destroying myself, and then Sunday night would roll around and I'd get paid on Monday and then all of a sudden I'm out of the frying pan into the fire. Yeah, um yeah, that was that was I identified that early and I I used alcohol in uh um an unsustainable way to protect myself from gambling to be fair.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

What age would you get in your darkest?

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Oh, good question. So what I'm 31 now. My last I I chopped the head off the snake with gambling when uh so that'll be December the 9th, 2019, just before COVID, just before the first spine race. So that'll be what six and a half years ago. Um I'd say when I was like 20, 20, just growing in, you know, the the brain still growing, the body still growing, developing as a man, and I was I was stagnant uh and I was lost and it was tough, sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

How are you doing this in total isolation and independence, or are you or you've got friends groups that are gambling as well, or like what's the kind of yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

So again, the the world of online gambling was opening up and the the there was there was anything and everything you could you could get your hands on. Uh and I've I must have registered with 30, 40 different online firms, and sometimes I'd I'd stop myself, and sometimes I'd have that day where I hadn't drank at the weekend, I'd spent amazing time with Jess, I'd there's a bit of money lying around, and I'd be like, you know what, maybe this is it. Maybe this is this is this this is the time, maybe this is the the the chance for me after banning myself from 365, Bet Fred, Lab Brooks Online, blah blah blah blah blah. And then it would show itself to me, it would show itself, and I would have a lack of intelligence and lack of concentration, and I wouldn't be back at square one, but I'd have walked through that door and I was back in that space. It was really difficult. And the interesting thing that we'll probably talk about is like how running started to show itself.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Um see, in terms of those dark moments, it's um what level do you have of that kind of self-judgment of feeling real guilt? You're obviously keeping things from Jess and family and colleagues and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yeah, how hard is it almost that self-judgment of you kind of know you're in a really rough place, but it's you're you're looking, you're looking in the mirror and you are you're literally desperate for a way out. Yeah, like you're just you've you've you got like am I allowed to swear on this? Of course, yeah. You you've you you're fucking longing for a chance and for a light and for a for a bit of hope. I had that, but it I had that with Jess, I had that with Scott at work, and to be honest, I was I was working really, really hard and I was earning good money. Like I was I was and I I was around a good team and good people, but you know, a lot of that money got a lot of that money got wasted on not used in the right way. But I I really I remember latching on to people and the first thing was latch on to people, so it was Jess, it was Scott, seeing what Stuart was doing, um, and and some other some other figures before I started latching on to well, I've been a gambler, can I be a runner? Um I uh you know I started running it was a pre season for football. I was playing football at this time. Um I was playing football, we we'd play on a sun play on a Saturday, play on a Sunday, go to the pub on a Sunday. Afternoon. Um and yeah, there was there was you know there was alcohol involved, there was sports involved, there was gambling involved. A lot a lot of young lads think it's I'm not sure about how it how it flows now, but a lot of it's pretty normal, I think. Yeah, it's sad to make it makes me feel sad. Yeah. Because uh I mean don't get me wrong, there might be well like in that realm I crumbled and I broke and it engulfed me. And not everyone is as resilient and as strong as me, which I think I've proven my running, but I I I forged the second chance, yeah, and a lot of young men and women don't, and bad things happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

I think even if I think about like when I was you know 17, 18, went to university, it was just common and as standard at the weekend, everybody put on a huge accumulator and would sit there. But if you had uh, you know, an addictive personality, you know, a lot of people I know, or a few people I know that kind got themselves into difficult situations, and you can just see how but it's the same thing. Anytime you switch on the TV, it's an advert. There's a deal. Sign up to this website for free and you get your first bet free. Um when it was what how bad did it get and with Jess, and when did she imagine you would have come close to losing her a couple of times? And how did that play out? And yeah, how did you manage to I guess avoid that?

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Yeah, um, I sort of locked into my survival instincts for my dad for sure. Um and lit l I l I mean, I don't know how we got a mortgage, but we did. I was I couldn't believe it. And when when we got the mortgage, I was like, Oh, uh, got away with this, like yeah, but but should I carry on then? Do you know what I mean? It wasn't like oh this is a line in the sand, yeah. But I do remember, and this this makes me sad, and Jess knows about this, but I remember when we moved into our little house at Castle Court, like it was a beautiful moment, and I remember saying to myself, I'm not gonna gamble under this roof, like I'm not gonna gamble under this roof, and that was early summer 2019, and I didn't stick to it. Um and that was that was hard, however, the wheels were in motion, and um I ran a race that starts in South Wales, Chepstow, finishes in North Wales, Prestatin, along the off-a-dike trail. Um, and I went, I'd ran 100 miles by then.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Can we just take a step back? You kind of said that you were, I think you were going to talk around pre-season, but what what was the moment you first found running and realized this is something that's can be mining sustainable? Like, what was that moment?

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yeah, so the characteristics when you when you're a gambler, um they were cut they were coming out in life. So we spoke about this erraticness, this aggression. The way I used to play football, you know, I was I was the captain, I was a leader, I was either leading or what I didn't want to be involved. That that you know it was it was my way or the highway. You listen to me, I was aggressive, I was dangerous, I was I was very good, I think, but I was playing football like I was living my life, do you know what I mean? Like literally weekend to weekend, didn't really care about any repercussions, didn't really care about any any scenarios. And one of the summers I'd always been fit and maintained fitness, but I mean we're talking Saturday and Sunday League football. It's not you know, I was the fittest on the team, I worked my bollocks off, and I I I just ran I just I was just tough and I was dangerous and I was difficult to play against. I remember one summer, uh I think I think I set myself like, oh, I want to run a I want to run a hundred miles in a month, and this was before like social media, this was before um challenges or any of that crap. And like I ran a hundred miles in a month and my body like completely broke down. Like I was doing some days I was doing like two miles, some days I was doing I don't know, four miles. It was like, whoa, like this is this is hard, this is difficult. Yeah, I like tore my IT band and it was it was awful. Got myself sorted. Uh and I maybe the the flickers of self-worth and the flickers of of um being kind to yourself and having a breakaway from having your mind um stimulated by something different, yeah, something real. Do you know what I mean? Like I'd I lived in a fucking bulb. The only thing that was real for me was the love for my wife. Yeah, literally, that that everything else was just like standing on that street and watching buses go past. Like I didn't have a fucking clue what was going on. The only thing that was that was that was real was being at work with Scott, learning something, yeah, being with Jess and feeling um feeling that relationship and feeling that natural connection and that love. Like I was proper analytical of that, and I knew that. Um so running, running maybe broke that chain slightly and give give me the chance. And then I ran. I was like, I I was staying at my boss's house, he was away uh on holiday, I was looking after his dogs, and I was like, Jess, like tomorrow I'm just gonna try and run half marathon in 90 minutes. Don't know what the hell's going on. So like I left the house, ran round stone, ran along the canal, thinking I didn't even map the run, thinking that oh yeah, half marathon would be about you know a big I rang Jess absolutely dying at BP Stone at the petrol station at the bottom of Stone High Street, BP garage, and like I thought I'm about six miles from where I started in the loop, and I've like I've misjudged the distance so much that I rang her like in tears of happiness because I'd done it, but also like fucking now you're gonna have to come and pick me up. She's like, You've got to stop doing this, you've got to stop doing this. So she she she came and picked me up, and the the the seed was sown from then. I'd I just I just looked at half marathons trying to trying to get a little bit better, 127, 126, 124. Yeah, well, and then within sort of four months, I was running uh I ran Snowdonia Road Marathon, which is like one of well the toughest, steepest marathon in the UK. I ran like a decent time, and like people saying, Oh, you're doing alright, this and all that, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, and then it just like it was like, right, I want to run 50, 75, 100. Do I want to get into UTMB? Blah, blah, blah, blah. So it was the generic, he's addicted to gambling, and now he's addicted to running. You know, that was it was as black and white as that at the start. I remember I was I ran for maybe three years before I was like completely off the gambling. So I remember having a bet and checking it on when I was running. It was a I think it was a Champions League game, Moscow against Man United. I remember that. That's a that's a memory that's vivid in my mind. Stopping to check the score at half time, and I do actually think that I remember that bet winning, but I remember maybe like the attraction and the affection of the win was not outweighed by the run I was doing. It was it was a bizarre moment. Um running gave me the clarity to to to figure things out, and and the the further I ran and maybe the more I punished myself because I was really fighting who I was, um, it just gave me the clarity to make decisions and break down this this fog I was stuck in.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Yeah. When was the moment you placed your last bet and that was you put to bed?

SPEAKER_00 29:04

So when I did the off-a-dike race, um so I'd had success, you know, I was running like the sport was young then, you know. You know, it was before, you know, we're talking 20, 2018, 2019, so eight years ago, nine years ago. I ran uh so we moved into the house on July 19, said I wasn't gonna gamble when we moved in, broke that broke that promise to myself and to Jess subconsciously. I had the off the dike race lined up for um for that August, I think. Went there, didn't have a clue what I was doing, did 188 miles, win the race, sleep for like 12 minutes, 49 hours or something. And on just on that run, I just I I I literally grew up like on course, in run, thinking like a gambler can't do this, a gambler shouldn't do this, like they you've got a chance here, and like it's really interesting because if I'd like slipped tripped or forward after 112 miles, would we be sitting here now? And like if I had a DNF that race, I I don't know, but it I just remember that run gave me the epiphany that like you've got we're not even talking about a second chance here, you've got a hundred and twelve chance, you've got the house, you've got you know, this is before COVID, you've got like a stable job, you've got people around you who care for you, you've got role models, you can run a bit, you've got to stop, otherwise, you this is gonna last a lifetime and not just a period of your life. So on that on that run, I decided like, you know, we're gonna get married, uh, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get engaged, sorry, and like I started actively looking for the end. Well, and the end came probably about 11 weeks after that. Well, so what the end was is every morning I was going to the coffee shop um on the way to to meet the lads before I got in the van, and I'd been on this app, Gamstock, 30 times, and it it I'm sure it's much more automated now, but you go on, you fill in your forms, blah blah blah, and then it says, like, do you like do you really want to do this? Do you really want to register? And what it does is it takes out all the all the technologies linked to these betting firms. It basically you cannot, it's like you get bankrupted, you get blacklisted, so you can't do anything, can't log in, you can't deposit, you can't do anything. And it's linked, it must be linked to 20 odd sites, maybe more now. And I remember I went in the uh there's many, many times I went in and I was queuing up, and I just I'd have it on, and maybe I'd won the night before, I'd lost the night before. This is our five in the morning. I'd have it on, and I just wouldn't do it. I don't know why. And then one day I went in, like I said, it was either the eighth or the ninth of December, and that that date is pivotal in life now, although I have forgotten it, but I know it's that time, and it was the day that it was meant to be. Well, and I'd I'd survived, I'd passed through it, and I had I had a chance and I had hope, and I clicked the buttons, and it was like I mean, I'm not like it didn't like we didn't let fireworks off and celebrate, but it was like one of those moments where when I was in the eye of the storm, if I was in the bathroom and I'd look at myself in the mirror, literally, like, yeah, who the fuck? Like, what are you? Like, what are you like at your worst? You're a parasite, at your best, you're a king. Like, what are you doing? Like, you're exactly the same, like the two of the same. And when I when I registered, it was just like like say if I went in the toilet after that, I'd just nod to myself and be like, Okay, well, you've got a chance now, so what are you gonna do with it?

SPEAKER_02 32:32

And in that moment when you've done that, which is obviously a huge step, did you trust and know that that was it?

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Oh, I I was the yeah, I did, yeah. The emotion and the connection, and I remember I think when you look when you do it, you you get like you want to do six months, nine months, five years. I think five years is the longest, and it's been you know, it's been eight, eight years, um, or six, seven years, whatever it's made since then. And I I knew I knew that that I knew that I'd got to the bottom of the well, I'd dug the fucking well, I'd survived, and like let's say the well was caved in, and when running came along, just these little shards of light started popping through the top of the well, and I'd I fucking climbed out the well.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

It was it was a beautiful moment.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

By the time that's happened, how you kind of said for a long time you're doing it in secret, and by that at that point, how many people knew that Jack had a gambling problem and um were kind of almost my mum, my mum and my dad knew uh because dad had tried to take hold of my finances and I'd I'd bypass them and I was lying and and cheating on that. Yeah, mum mum had tried to facilitate helping me, um, but I never asked for help, they were just like um they they were like replacing the chocolate bar in the lunchbox with a piece of fruit. Do you know what I'm saying? You're like you that that's the sort of analogy that they were doing. Like, this lad's still got to eat, but let's not give him the chocolate bar sort of thing. Yeah, and slowly but surely, you know, in like the let's say the year before I broke the chain, I was just starting to like leave people alone and starting to tidy up my life and starting to put myself into situations where I was protected instead of being vulnerable. Alcohol intake had dropped, fit fitness was obviously building. And you know what? I running running gave me the chance to have a different identity. Running gave me the chance to move away from Jack the young lad, you know, bouncing around, making massive mistakes, gambling, losing people, hurting people, and running gave me the chance. And uh, when I talked to coaching clients now, I was like, you know, running running can give you that chance, it's can support you, it can give you everything you want. A lot of people don't want much. I don't want much, but it's it gave me the it give me a chance to just be someone different. Yeah, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Congratulations. I know it's so how long for now is it?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

So it was that was uh the 8th or the 9th of December 2019, just before COVID. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah, incredible.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yeah, um so then you're obviously into this next chapter, and yeah again, it's funny because a lot of people will have that line in the sand and a breakthrough moment in their life of giving up gambling or giving up booze, and they maybe find running. Yeah, what they don't do is find a sport like running and become one of the best in the world at it. Um yeah, but the journey you've uh been on, how did that evolve in terms of you realising you maybe you had it in those moments anyway, around okay, wait a minute, you've got a chance here you know, and you're realising that you've maybe got a talent that you can kind of take to the next level. How did that evolve? And you maybe you said it there in terms of it was always the next distance or the next race, but how did that start evolving?

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Something's just come to me when you were saying that. Like the first thing I identified straight away was like I need to work, obviously, I need to work on fitness, you know, I need to work on something that you can work on, yeah, or that Malcolm outside can work on. But the characteristics that had got me through all the shit that I'd put myself through, yeah, they were always they were already there. Yeah, they were, you know, that that dangerous, that that risk taking, that survival, that also that uh all those other vulnerabilities, they were all already there. So I thought, yeah, I suppose subconsciously I thought if I can get fit and I can dip into them, and I had dipped into them a bit in some of my long distance running. I knew what was over the other side of sleep deprivation, I knew what was over the other side of endurance because I'd been there.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

I thought if I clean my life up and if I give myself a a purpose and a chance, then I I can I can I can do something here because I've got I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna morph all these all these dark characteristics into a into a positive situation and see what that produces, whether that's business, whether that's sport, whether it's like like boxers or like I don't like boxing or whatever it might be. And then the irony is that you know the spine race rolls round um six weeks after I I'd cut the head off the snake and stopped gambling. I enter it with a very, very good friend of mine, Hugh.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Can we take a pause? Because I think if people know about trail running and ultra running, they will know about the spine, particularly the winter spine. Yeah, yeah. But could you give a bit of an overview of what the spine is, the the penheim way? Because we've kind of mentioned a couple of times how good a runner you are. This isn't running, this is a different level of uh running. So just give us a bit of an overview of what the spine is in the penime way.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah, cool. Um so what is the penheim way? What is the spine? So the spine is 268-mile winter race, normally starts 10th, 11th, 12th of January, 16 hours of darkness. Uh it used to be a race of of survival and of maybe the the smartest runner reaches the end. Uh and I I think it's changed now. It it's a it's an athletic spectacle. It's it's extremely difficult. The the winner um usually does it in well, let's say 83 hours, yeah. And it but it can take people a week, and uh, people approach it in many, many different ways. There's five or six checkpoints on the route, average of maybe 52 miles each between the checkpoints, and it's basically you look after yourself, you either sink or you swim, and you've got to roll roll the dice and roll with the punches, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

Yeah, it's it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

And it's it's it's is it the hardest race in the world? It can be. For example, if you get to the Cheviots, which is the last 30 miles, there's no road, there's no road crossing, yeah, nothing. If the weather is as bad as it's been the last couple of times I've been up there, and you've been through three days of hell, and then you have that, it is it it is the hardest race in the world.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, I I follow the sport quite a lot, and you see different races across you know North American things, and you see a lot of them come over and attempt the spine as well. But usually they're not throwing the elements into the mix in terms of how cold it is, how dark it is for so long. Sometimes there's snow you've got like two or three feet of snow, yeah, yeah. Um, so it's unbelievable there.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

It's it's it's a it's a grey space that requires patience, and that there's nothing dramatic, there's nothing fancy, there's nothing there's nothing nice or simple about it, and a lot of people a lot of people struggle with that. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Whether it's the spine or other races like it that you've done, the sign-up process in your mind, what's that like in terms of what why you're signing up and what you nine times out of ten, what your goal wants to be to make yourself proud?

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah, interesting. So, I mean, it changes, it it changes every year, really, it changes every time. Like, you know, when we're talking about straight from the gambling to the the DNF in 2020, I uh why was I doing that race? Uh I was probably doing it because I thought I I could do well in it. Like my mate who had a bit more experience than me, he he's just he was focused on finishing, on on enjoying it, extracting it, he just focused on finishing. I think maybe I verbalised that, but I I wanted to do well in it, you know. I wanted to cheat the system and just rock up and just be a bit naive and be like, you know, I've I've I've won two long distance races, let's have a look at this one. And when the crunch came in that race, I was just because I was dealing with something so severe here, going cold turkey, gambling, I couldn't deal like the mind does can't want two things at once. Like you have to you have to you have to decide, and I was I was all my energy was here dealing with the gambling addiction subconsciously that it just it just had a catastrophic effect on my race. So I I I DNF' after 62 miles in 2020, COVID came, went away, listened, learned, and then went back in 2023. So when I went back in 2023, it was again, you know, I'd had some decent results.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

I didn't what have you learned there? You kind of said you've listened, learned. What were what were the biggest lens learns over that period?

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Um, really interesting. So so COVID came in, so life was a lot simpler, which was which was lovely. You know, I was moving every single day, I was moving away from the gambler, and I was getting I was getting fitter. I used it as literally a period to study, to learn, to to listen, very similar to the stage I mean, like literally currently with with running, like just to to down tools. You've you've had some success, you've you've been you've been you've had your arse kicked at this race. Like what what are you gonna like how are you gonna deal with that? How are you gonna frame the sport? What what what what what what's the next four or five years look like for you? And it just it just became I'm not gonna say it became an obsession, but like it just became such a a beautiful prospect that it was it was all I focused on for three years, like, and then just just went back in. I thought I was focused on it without focusing on it, so I was just getting out, you know, I was entering more competitive races, started working with a couple of brands, started finding my fee, and then all of a sudden the doorway was there, and like I entered uh a year before, so 2022 into 2023. Yeah, the coaching business was starting to come on, and it's just just showed itself and went and had a decent run there, 2023.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Brilliant. And 23, you came second, is that right? Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

So second, ran a very untidy, unex inexperienced race. Um what does that mean? Yeah, really good. I mean, I could I can tell you some crucial points, some na navigation issues, some issues with it. Was just that the whole package was untidy. So, you know, let's say three weeks before the race, because you have to enter a year in advance, it's a really interesting psychological uh yeah, because I'm seeing people sign up obviously like last month, yeah, like next year. That is something that is yeah, I've dealt with it in a few different ways, and we'll talk about the difference between 2023 and 2024 in a minute. But yeah, you know, the the project was there, we we were ready to rock and roll, and like a couple of weeks before, I was I I remembered working with a local sort of psychologist and close friend of mine, and he had to he had to hoodwink me that I was like good enough to mix it with. I had to accept that I was I was going into the race to like have a breakthrough performance and manage that and deal with that. Remember, we're not talking about you know 50-mile race, we're talking about something that is just absolutely bonkers, anything and then anything and everything can happen. And there were three or four start names on the start line. Um, naturally, I thought where I could fit in, and then the the psychologist made me believe that I could do that, and we spoke about loads of different race scenarios, loads of different outcomes, and and how and how I could do that, and a lot of those outcomes came true. But I just ran a uh an unpatient, inexperienced race with Naveras and with Kit and with it. I mean, at the time it was like the best I could do, do you know what I mean? But but just in hindsight, it was just a a messy race, uh, for sure. Messy psycho psychology, messy fitness. Um it was like it was like my I'm not gonna say it was like one of my worst performances, but as a package, it was one of my worst performances.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Um what sort of stuff are you working on with a psychologist? Is it like scenario based?

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Yeah, visualized visualization. We sort of use a havening technique. Have you ever you heard of haven't? So to To separate sort of the brain and the senses, um, if you were terrified of spiders, let's say, you know, you'd you'd go and see someone. But what was special with me is I the person I was going to see, I trusted. And he, by the way, it's another strong male, professional male, ex-military, beautiful guy, massive influence for me. One of my if I was holding onto a rope over a canyon, and you had to choose one person to hold the rope, Steve would be the guy. Yeah, well. Like, I like honestly, he's he's absolutely he's been pivotal for me. And he's he's has he changed my life? Probably has. So we were we broke down, he got into my head. I remember I trust this guy with my life anyway. I'd known him for 18 months, two years, and was sort of was sitting there, he's like, Well, try this havening technique. So he puts he get he gets me to put my arms out, he's sitting there and he starts like rubbing my face, and like he's like he's like, Can you hum? Um, can you hum happy birthday to to me or to you? Can you hum it? Can you count back from 70 and 7s and then in threes? You know, can you can you do this? Can you do that? And then all of a sudden he'd be like, What can you see? What are you doing? Where are you? Thinking about the race, you're thinking about Jess, you're thinking about the dog. And all of a sudden, like I was in like this sort of um all my senses were supercharged. He's rubbing my face, he's rubbing my legs, he's he's di he's he's distracting my my brain, my eyes are shut, and it's all my ears and my brain. And he and he put me through these scenarios and he made me really interesting. Like, if he'd done this when I was a gambler, it could have been really interesting. We we were trying to enhance a performance and not cure something. So he uses this for curing phobias, he uses this for curing uh addiction, I guess. So he just strips it all back, and it's sort of you in your brain, and there's no fogginess, there's no social media, there's no TikTok, there's like you're not thinking about Donald Trump, you're just thinking about yourself, and like you're not you're not moving, so like you know, we might use running as a reflective thing, but like what if you could sit there and just just just drift off and not not have to have a movement, and you're literally solely focused on a purpose or a goal. And Steve broke down that barrier for me, and it was frightening. What like I mean, we're talking borderline like hypnosis, really, yeah, but it was only so powerful because I literally I I love this guy, I care for this guy. This guy's is is is very, very important for me. Yeah, um, and it was a beautiful thing, and he made me believe that I could do it, like mix it with Kim, mix it with Damien, mix it with John, some of these incredible athletes on the start line, and sort of we dipped our toe into that, and it sort of came true.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

You've obviously taken ownership of yourself there in terms of the decision to get a psychologist and really throw yourself into the sport and not just go, you know, half-assed it, you really want to make most of it. Um, what was that decision? Was that kind of like you're gonna you want to give yourself the best chance on a number of different fronts, or what was the kind of the biggest contributing factor for you to get a psychologist?

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Um, well, I mean, Steve's experience and Steve's qualifications comes from comes from life, you know. So I was gonna I originally I went to Steve as like a as a as a physio to right some wrongs with the body, and then he just started, you know, as the trust and the relationship grow grew, we just started talking and he said, Oh, you know, have you ever done this? I've I've helped people with this when I was in the military and since. Um I'd I you know what when I turned from like semi-professional to professional ugly words, like I realised that and I do think you can only realise this when you've been at the bottom of like everything. But when you're born, realistically, it all you've got to do is look after yourself, right? Physically, mentally, put good food in, you know, be happy, be bright, be charismatic, whatever it might be. Like, and then if you do that, you just set yourself up to be around the right people or to be in the right place at the right time. And I think there's a hell of a lot of people who are stuck and they're just on the they're just on the um on the path of like no return, and they don't realise that. Um they're just on a constant demise and they haven't got a chance. So I got very, very close to that and I went through that. Yeah and coming out the end of it, I was like, I've just I've just got to look after myself, you know, I've got I've just got to be clean and I've got to be I've got to be I've got to be ready and I've got to be happy. Just being happy, like running made me happy, and then it just it just went from there, you know, eating, gym work, working with the right people, and just just biding my time for the 2023 spine and then 2024.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

What's your um if you run a race and it's a clean race and you've done well and but you don't come first, are you satisfied with that or are you as a competitive person who needs that calculator?

SPEAKER_00 48:50

No, so I mean if we're talking about the realm of the spine, yeah, you know, statistically I'm like the best to ever do it, right? Which is fair enough. But I'm like, and there is rankings for the UK, but like in this other environments, I'm a novice. Like, you know, I'm a novice in you know, if if we lined up 10 lads, 10 of the best lads in the UK, would I be ranked in the top 10 of certain distances? Yes. And then like you know, there's people better than me. There's people there's people better than me. I just want to have a lovely package of training, a happy, healthy training block. And when we get on the start line, if we can do it, we can do it, if we can mix it, we can mix it, and if we can't, we can't. Funnily enough, um, the end of last year, did the world championships manage to qualify for team GB. I had a stinker of a race, really, really poor. But like I had an epiphany in the race, like you're in the GB gear, you're out on the world championships course, your wife and your mum are in the valley. Like, mum hadn't left the country for 10 or 15 years. It's like, and I had an epiphany in the court on the course to be like, let it go. Like, what are you sad for? Smile, move forward, and like I finished, I finished on my hands and knees. The race was 50 miles. I finished on the hands and knees, I had a stinker of a day, but I still had I had something real. Yeah, I had something pure and real for me. Of course, I wanted to finish in the top 20. On my day, could I have done maybe? But I finished 91st. I got beaten by a Hon Jordan fisherman on the last descent, and like it's just a real, real experience and real story to move forward. I don't I don't have to win to satisfy what I think I want.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Yeah, brilliant. So then you come on to that you know the spine in January 2024, yeah. Um, which is certainly where I got to kind of know of you and from the dot watching, and anybody that doesn't know what dot watching is, it's when keen fans of ultra running are online and watching basically the tracker you've got attached to yourself and seeing where you're at in the race because as you said, some of these races will last up to a week. Yes. So you want to check where people are, whether it's loved ones or famous runners and things like that. So my two of my good friends alerted me to your performance and how well you were doing in 2024.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Are they ultra runners or short distance or because the spying gets everyone, not just?

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Yeah, so they're just so they so they do cross so they do some cross-country racing, now dabbling in the the longer distance stuff.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

I don't know, maybe they'll taught themselves and maybe myself into it one day, but not yet if my wife's listening. I'm not doing I'm not doing that training block. That's obviously you said it yourself, you're the best who've ever done it. I think the record previous to you doing was 83 hours. Jasmine, yeah. Yeah, Jasmine Paris, who's you know very famous now for what she did in the Barclay last year, which I want to come on to. Um, but talk to me a little bit around 24 and why that was so different to 23, because you've obviously got a result which seems like it's not won't be broken for a while, but like, how does that risk get put together? And talk to me about some of the numbers around how you did it and the sleep side as well, which is the most baffling bit for me.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Yeah, so the difference between 2023 and 2024, reviewing 2023 was I dipped my toe in, I survived, I'd a I had a I had a breakthrough performance, there was a potential there, but I needed to, if I was gonna go back, I needed to run a just a tidy race. So physically I believed I could do it, but but could I control these these other elements? Um, the the you know, pacing, navigation issues, little twists and turns, kit tweaks. So it was on. Like I was like, right, uh, you know, um, I didn't actually book a spot because I I didn't book a spot three weeks later because I'd spoke to someone at the race and I thought as a young athlete, you know, I was only 28 then, which is young and ultra running. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like in that distance, my god, yeah. Like, you know, you look at you know, Damien Hall's 50, won't like me saying that. John John's 40, yeah, and Sebastian, who won this year. I mean, he looks about 70, but I don't know how old he is. But he is a tough, experienced operator. Yeah, yeah. Um, so the so the idea was, you know, I'm gonna, I, I'm, I'm gonna go back, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try. And as the as the year developed, um, it it wasn't it wasn't gonna happen. It my my plan was to email them in September saying, right, I've reviewed everything, I want to come back, can I have a spot? And uh my plan was because I like to train in a really variable, um, different style to everyone else. So I I don't do massive mile, I don't do massive mileage. For example, you know, between 23 and 2024, let's say Damian Hall, who did both races, I believe he did the Barclay, I believe he did a 100-mile race in July, I believe he did the Tour de Giants at the end of September, and then all of a sudden he's rolling towards the race. My biggest race between 2023 and 2024 was OCC at UTMB. I finished second Brit, 30th overall, 32 miles.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

So I knew I had the credentials and the and the the fitness and the conditioning. So I needed to just work on other things. Like I need to just go away and forget about spine, just have it different experiences. Win, lose, and draw somewhere else. You know, don't don't think you need to follow this strategic, long distance, slow, uh stagnant way of training. I just did, I just didn't do that. Um so I was running, I was running all over the place. I was running, you know, English champs races on the Fells, just following a package that I believed in that I could enjoy, and that was my philosophy of you know, do what you enjoy. You know, we know where you want to be, do what you enjoy, follow your nose, focus on happy, healthy athlete, and don't I haven't got the the passion to roll from 200 miler to 200 miler because if I'm gonna do a 200 miler, I'm gonna put myself in in a place that no one's ever been before and see if I swim, which is what happened in 2024. However, pass through the summer, and to be honest, sort of got I've sort of got the taste for these sort of races, and like speaking to my wife, like, well, you know, I'm I'm gonna go back, like I'm gonna go back and see see what the crack is if I can run a tidy race. And people, I knew there was a gonna be the most competitive field ever. So John Kelly was there, you know, there were 10 previous winners, it was an astonishing field of runners and some some up-and-coming runners as well. And I put myself in that, so I email him, I get a spot, and then like I tell I tell my wife, and she's sort of like open-ended comment, she's like, Well, you're gonna get what you deserve, and I was like, I don't know how to read that. Like, I'm either gonna you know win the race and have a great race, or because she's thinking, Why? Like, why did why do you need to be the person who goes back and why do you need to be the person who like and I was just convincing her that I could do it, like, but then you know reading between the lines, I had I had a wobble, you know. After OCC, I picked up injuries and I had a really difficult autumn, and this is where this is like one of the most important things like I'm about to say that has ever happened to me. So I went to see Steve, and um Steve who made me believe that I could, you know, be a decent runner and and mix it with a couple of the lads in 2023. Steve saw something going on and and heard the way uh saw my manner is and my characteristics, and he we opened the door again, and he was like, If you're gonna if you're gonna set yourself up and and portray yourself and and reach your potential, you've got to risk what you did in 2023. Because I was thinking, you know, second at the spine, half decent result, faster than John Kelly's like, you know, I I've got away with one here. Like, can this be the catalyst? Like, I don't want to risk this now. And remember, I'm in defensive mode here. I've had nothing in life. I've had nothing. And all of a sudden things are starting to change, and I'm like, do I really want to risk this? Do I really want to be a hundred percent in and like have something to lose? And Steve just sat me down, he's like, I've known you for a long time. He's like, You've got to get you've got to go back. Because I was sitting there thinking, like, Steve, I don't know if I can let this go. Because then I don't know if I can open myself up to failure because I've the the crossover is I've had nothing, and now I've got something, I don't want to risk something to get everything. Do you know what I mean? Like everything's a load, like it's a load of bollocks, but if I've got something, I don't, I don't, do I want to be the guy who wants everything? Yeah, and Steve was like, he's like, I'm not telling you what to do, but he's like, You've got to you've got to seriously think about this, you've got to back yourself, you've got to be decisive, and you've got to make the call now. And this is in October, and he's like, October, November, and he's like, as soon as you make this call now, he says, if you're in the middle of the race and you think you've got to remember this, that is the right call now. Because in the race, it'll be like this is the wrong call, I'm being greedy, I'm being stupid, I'm too young for this. Yeah, so we opened the door again with the psychological game, and uh well, I mean, it it worked, and it was the most crucial decision I've ever made in my life. And probably up there with that day in the Costa Coffee where I clicked, I'm not I'm not gambling. And Steve gives me goosebumps, but Steve just just just gave me the platform to look at clearly. Yeah, look what you did last year, look what you did now. It's a simple transaction. Yeah, look after yourself, don't have to do anything stupid. Yeah, like you just took out all the noise, you took out the grey space, and it was there for me to see. And I made the decision to race again. Um, again, it wasn't all plain sailing between behaviourally.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

Did much like what changed between that conversation to the start line, or was it more just momentum and belief for when you go I mean as soon as that was on, as soon as I made that call that I'm gonna I I am gonna do this, it was like, Well, I've not given myself a choice here, so I'm gonna I'm I I've got to touch that wall one minute before anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Yeah, I've got to touch that wall 11. Remember, I finished hand in hand with Damien the year before, ran a really frustrating race. I was as soon as Steve gave me that to latch on to one of the characteristics that I've got within me, I was fucking I was I was aggressive and I was dangerous and I was I was supercharged. And I wasn't I wasn't sitting, I was sitting there relaxing, like of course, but like but I was I was I went to a realm just even in the training and even in psychology two or three months before, just getting to the start line was it. All I need to do was get there, and I just I just believed that when the time came I would deliver, and then obviously what happened was beyond anything I could ever imagine. I don't use calculations, I don't use schedules. John Kelly does some other amazing runners, more accomplished runners than me. I leave the door open to something special. So I was win the race, win the win the race. Like, did I think I could run faster than Jasmine? Yes, but if I'd have written down 7255, people would have thought I was a fucking lunatic, and I would have thought, you're a greedy, horrible young man. What are you on about? I we left the door open to do something special, and I followed my nose, and it was it was a beautiful race.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

It's it's incredible because it's 10 hours faster than it's ever been done before.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Um in ideal in borderline ideal conditions with a competitive field, but it had its you know it had its consequences, and I slept for 49 minutes, give or take, in that race. Half an hour of that was inside, maybe 20 or 25 minutes was just outside in the snow. That ruthlessness that I showed in that decision making and that accountability, I just went into a race like that, and I could have fought Mike Tyson.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

Yeah, it was it was that well, we wouldn't want to get in the way, um, but it is amazing because I think it's always that as I said, there's two questions like the how and the why of like why these people do these races, and what how how do you how do those the people at the top one percent, how are they doing it? And the the biggest thing again, I've dabbled a little bit, nothing properly overnight, not really face sleep deprivation at all. But like when you're pushing your body to that limit for three days straight and then some um and you're sleeping for 49 minutes overall, take me inside your mind there in terms of like because you you are having to make decisions, there's you're you're having to navigate, you're having to feel yourself, you need to check points, you have to change your clothing and the rest of it. And there's the racing dynamic which people And you're you're checking who's behind you, and you're trying to win something, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

It's not it's not an FKT where you're racing a ghost, it's like you're racing someone live, yeah, and that emotion is so different. I've done both, yeah. That live emotion is different.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

Firstly, before we go into the sleep deprivation side of it, but what's that? Because I know you you you started to build up quite a handsome lead in the race.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Well, that was after 156 miles.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

But the fear of almost letting yourself stop and not letting that lead go, yeah. Yeah, what's that like?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

I mean, I just try let in the latter stages of the race, I I mean, I just trust trusted my instinct. You know, early on, the first 24 hours of of a race like this, or the first 24 hours in general for me, first day, the first night is is hard. I need to settle, I need to believe in it, I need to feel it, and the pace on this race was was unprecedented. You know, so I've just won the spine south in 25-12. Yeah, we got to the same point in 2024 in 24-12, and I still had 160 miles to go. Crazy. So I mean it was just a clean year, the canvas was there. Go and let's go and see, let's go and break some records, let's go and see what the hell's going on. Um at the sharp at the sharp end and at the the crucial points, I just thought, I just my behavioural pattern was more ruthless, and I just thought like a racer instead of a runner. I wasn't there to complete it, I was there to to to to do something no one's ever seen before. So I remember leaving the checkpoint at Middleton. A couple of things had happened that Kim had dropped out, and I was like, okay, well, me and Steve have spoken about about 3,000 scenarios, and this is one of them. So you're not making any new decisions or new emotions in the run. It's like we spoke about this, this is fine. You know, the wheels aren't coming off, and we're not running around letting fireworks off like we've won the race, it's like we're fine here. And I remember leaving Middleton Checkpoint with Damien and James, and we're heading down to Dufton, and then we turn right and head up to Cross Cross Fell, and it came and it was like, How are you gonna win this race then? So, like you're not just surviving now. It's like how I I remember thinking literally, they were talking, and I was just in this zone of like, How am I gonna win this? How am I gonna do it? And then the like the move the move came shortly after that, uh, and then you know, leading the race under under pressure with the field behind you, knowing that I'm on course for a decent time, it just produced something that I'd only ever dreamed of, literally in my dreams. And once I had it, I was in I was in dangerous, aggressive Jack Scott mode, and I there was no way I was letting it go. And honestly, the work rate from Alston along Hadrian's wall, it it sends shudders down my spine now of just what I was dealing with. But you know what? When I was in the eye of the storm, I wasn't scared, I wasn't worried. I checked him with myself every hour and I was like, trust this, sleep in the snow for two minutes, trust that. Do something no one else would do, back yourself. This is this is an accumulation of years of just being a human being, and you've got a fucking chance to do something incredible. Don't let history or times or restrictions stop you. Do what you feel in your heart is right, and I just thought, fuck this, I'm off.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

It's unbelievable. And um you kind of touched upon it there, but like in maybe not in the moment, but like you've got a lot of time by yourself there.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:14

Like, how much are you reflecting on the old Jack Scott?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:18

I'm reflecting on every every single step, decision, moment of my life in that run.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:23

But how much did it do that psych the psychology of you kind of said in that moment you placed your last bet, you're gonna take the worst characteristics and behaviours, but almost use them as a superpower in this in the positive way?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

I couldn't I couldn't be harmed. Yeah, I put myself through turmoil for nothing. Yeah, I put myself through turmoil to have a let to start the next week with 11 pounds in my bank. Yeah, and all of a sudden, somehow you had manipulated a scenario where you are in don't get me wrong, like I mean I was a corpse, I was fucked, but like I was in dreamland and I hadn't done anything different. I was still Jack, you know, uh just the aggression and the hurt and the hardness was was just within, and I was kind and I was trustworthy, my business had started building, you know, I've been married, my family was great, and I was like, if not now, then when? Back yourself, believe in yourself, show you know the erratic Jack who would get himself in a situation that a thousand other people wouldn't get in, dangerous, bad situation, is now in a position that a million other people couldn't get themselves in. And there's unfortunately, you know, I do think I'm moving away from it a bit in my older age, 31. I am a man of extremities, and if you've been at the bottom and realised that, you've got to realise when you're at the top, yeah. Follow your nose, and I just fucking went for it. And and you know, I was begging my subconscious was begging myself to sleep, begging myself to stop. You know, I was eight, nine, ten hours ahead, but something inside me was like, This is your time to do something different and something special, and and to to to really show to yourself and your family and your wife and your mum like just yeah, this is what. I s this is what I said I could do. I never said I could do that to anyone but myself and Steve. Um go and show them what a turnaround looks like and what go and show your mum what a son is and go and show your dad what a son is and go and show your wife what uh who her husband is and that was just unbelievable and I was like the the moral there is like of course I wanted to sleep, of course I wanted to stop, relax, take it easy. But I just thought I've got such a product going on, I've just got I've literally just got to get on with it. Yeah, and just and that could have you know that could have been disastrous, is um for example with a nine-hour lead, only spending 20 minutes at the last checkpoint when you could have spent three hours, I just believed that I'd find a way through it. And what you know what when I touch the wall at the end, um like I'm talking to the cameras and something like that, and all talking to the cameras, and then there's a there's a there's a moment after where everyone stops asking me questions, and I look back at the fell, and there's a picture online, and I look back at the fell, and it's beautiful, cold, crisp, dang, like beautiful but dangerous overnight, cold. And like my body and my brain like changes then, and I've like literally got scars from that now. Like my my face and my my my body geometry has changed since that race. And when I touched that wall, it was like for the the 2024, it's like the the gamblers broke even here and he's found a way out. Wow, yeah, serious shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

Yeah, we'll put that photo up because I can see it. You're in your orange jacket, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Yeah, and I'm just like I'm just like a corpse of a man.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:34

Yeah, it's what's the purest, purest version of me. That's something yeah, and what is even though in your you're I mean, I can't even imagine how tired you are because I think you sat down and did an interview.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so I'm in I'm in the back, I'm on my phone, like FaceTime my wife and my dog, and like this is like one of the most amazing moments of my life, but at FaceTime my wife, and we're just sobbing on the phone, like she's in bed, and like we weren't even saying, like, oh well done, what what's just going on? We were just looking at each other like what what have we just seen, what have we just witnessed, and she she sort of understood. Um and that effect had a lot like I said, that that run had an effect on um yeah, a lot of people, not just family, but a lot of a lot of people. Uh, and then yeah, I mean, I'm sort of hobbling my way to the hotel room, like I'm not gonna lie, like my mum had to shower me, like I was in a mess. And then I thought, you know what, they want an interview, live and direct. I haven't slept, let's just let's just sit down and talk. The interview's pretty good, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:39

Yeah, don't know if you've heard it, but it's uh Yeah, I remember thinking surely he's had a nap and put the same clothes on, but it was uh straight to it. But you kind of said it there. I I I you used the turn of phrase, which I think is just exceptional there, if like the the gambler breaks even.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's can it's a Kenny Rogers song.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:54

Yeah, of course, but I think that should be the name of your autobiography as well. It's um no one wants to read that. It's um it's amazing, and I I appreciate your vulnerability and and candor, and how a lot of people will be able to take that away in terms of how you've really in a short period of time turned your life around.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

Yeah, and you know, you've had amazing support of people around you, which are you know pivotal for everybody on that journey, but you've held yourself to account and said I'm gonna do something about it, and nothing's and but but I I just want to stress to anyone watching or listening to this that like it doesn't have to you don't have to be as extreme as me. Like I I say I got to the bottom of gambling, and I'm sure there's people here maybe listen to this who've been to the bottom of drugs, alcohol, whatever it might be, and then I might have got to the top of something over here, whether it's like if you feel good about yourself and if you're in a productive, imaginative stage of your life, and and uh like you don't have to go so extreme, like look after yourself, protect yourself. I took the risk with a psychologist to risk everything I'd done before 2023, and I took that risk and it worked, and I wasn't scared to fail in the end. I I'd realised that failure was definitely an option that that but I because I thought I'd I'd had enough of a backup of life and I was stable and I was ready that I could deal with failing, but some people can't, and what I'm saying is live inside your means if you're if you're healthy and you're happy and you've been miles away from that, protect that you don't have to go to the extremes that I have. Yeah, because if you're if you can't deal with failure, I wouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:25

What's um when you've done that and you've achieved something, you've set out and you kind of said it yourself, you threw everything into it, you got aggressive with it, and you've got to make it happen. Yeah, talk to me around the weeks and months after the spine race and how that feels emotionally in terms of whether you're straight away thinking what's next or you're at peace. Like, what does that feel like?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:45

I mean I'm at the I'm at the finish line, and people are saying, What's next? Yeah, and I'm like, Life is next for me. Like, life. So I'm gonna go home, like I'm gonna drive home tomorrow with my dad, I'll hobble into Greg's, probably spend 15 quids in Greg's. Me and my dad will drive home, just like 2023. Did a few radio interviews, blah blah blah, but I just want to get home to my dog and my wife and like leave me alone, please. Um yeah, the next few, you know, the next few months and the next few weeks and months were just they're just they were just they were they were brilliant. There was opportunities, I was here, there and everywhere, and I just had a deep sense of uh of we we got this we got this one right, and the really difficult decisions that I'd made over an accumulation of time paid off. Um that was that was beautiful, and it's changed my psychology, it's changed my philosophy. Well, maybe hammered home my philosophy around coaching. You know, I remember when I started my coaching and mentoring business, like people were just people were getting involved with me because like I might have shown a bit of potential, and they were like betting on me being the best or betting on me having an elite mind at times. Yeah, and then you know, I started my business on like Boxing Day in 2021 or something like that. I don't know, and like I'm proud that I did all that, did all the hard yards, and then bang, people saw what I'm preaching, people saw the way I can affect things, and it everything was already built. So, like business-wise, I mean things went you know 300% overnight, and it was a really interesting period where I learnt a lot of r self-restraint, and you can't be in two places at once, and you can't want two things at once, right? You know, because there was it was it was bonkers to be fair. Yeah, on the British scene, you know, not worldwide, but on the British side, it was just it was crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

You've talked a little bit around coaching, and um you kind of said it yourself, you you you you you train differently to a lot, you talk around no junk miles and things like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Um if there's drunk miles in there, like go out and think about your day, go out and think about your your moment, go and think about like don't just go out and be like, Oh, I've got to do 85 minutes because I've got to do it easy. Like, make it purposeful in your own way. Yeah, because we we talk about how busy life is and how everyone wanted everything yesterday. Use running in the you well, we want we want to do sessions, we want to do progressions, we want to get fit, but there needs to be an element of you're in control here. Go out on your easy runs, clear your head, relax, make business decisions, make family decisions, and just calm down, slow down.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:21

Yeah, um it's been a conversation of a lot around identity and that journey, and you're I mean you've you've got the talent and the prospect to just everything could be running, right? It could be for a profession, it could be coaching, yeah, but it's not. No, you do want to talk a little bit around that and that you stay into the construction side.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

Yeah, um well that like over the years I've spent more time with the lads at work statistically than anyone else. Yeah, uh, and they've seen me and they've listened to me talk shite about doing 300 mile races and breaking records, blah blah blah blah. And they're real people, they're beautiful people, they're they're my best friends. We're talking about Scott, Sean at work, Ollie, um, who came to work for us a bit, who have a pivotal role, including a hallucination in the race. Um the the 2023 year, I saw this lad in the bunk in the in the hostel. I saw this lad, and he was like, you know, get you've got to get up, you've got to get going. Damien's already gone. It's bizarre. Well, um, yeah, so I I've chosen to keep construction in my life because I don't want to be one-dimensional, I don't want to have everything to lose. And I, you know, if I'm honest, I want to develop, and I do think I'm developing into like uh a better successful person and not just a better successful runner. Because I think if you are, and I've been there, if your your main branch is running, you are selfish, you are erratic, and you are um you you've got a greater goal, but at the time you you it it's not very nice, like it's hard, yeah it's fucking hard, and and I'm not I'm not willing to do that because I would sacrifice I'd rather sacrifice finishing 91st at the World Championships than finishing seventh, sixth, and being a being a pro and being one-dimensional and and having everything to lose. I'm just not willing to the the sport doesn't mean enough to me for that. You know, I want life experiences, I want, I want, you know, I want to be successful. Obviously, I want to give my best. I want to show people there's there's more than one way to do it, and I want to I want to finish races absolutely giving everything, but I'm not willing to fall into that bracket of one-dimensional because I've been there, I've got a lot to lose, and I'm not I'm not willing to risk it. Yeah, and it's all it's like we're talking about a hypothetical situation that's in my head, it's a protective, defensive mechanism that I put up because of trauma I've been through.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:55

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:56

I'm not willing to do it. It's like like my coaching business is is uh like bulging. Bring someone in with a similar philosophy for you, bring someone in who can help like ease the load and help represent you. I don't trust anyone like that. I'd rather stay restricted inside my own little fence, yeah, and that you know, and and work hard and have these connections with people than than grow into something that I can't control. Can't I can't I can't I can't deal with that. So I'd rather just be limited like I am and stay in control of everything.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:26

I think that's fair given what you've talked about. And what's um what's out there now, whether it's in sport, life, coaching, what are the the big next goals for you in your mind or milestones you have?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:39

Um milestones I have are just having the opportunity, that option to to go and run. It might not be racing, it might not be uh it might not be deemed to look successful or shiny, but just have fitness and health in my life and have the opportunity to be healthy, to be happy, uh, and to sustain what I have now built. Like I've built it with my legs and I built it with my brain and my heart, but I just want to sustain that. I don't want anything fancy, I don't want anything. I I I just want to stay stay where I am, and my biggest achievement now will be if if you know when I'm th 45 to still be in the sport, to have had the odd success, yeah, yeah, yeah. But to be there and to have a smile on my face and to have supported a business and to supported a family and not go looking for that that gold medal, to be honest. Yeah, yeah. There's things that excite me, and there's things that I'm gonna do, which can dip a toe into, but I can't quite talk about too much, that are obviously extremely difficult, and I will have to perform at a world-class level, but I want to be a successful person and not necessarily a successful athlete, and the two are different.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:49

Do you want to give the Barclay a crack?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:51

Really interesting. Uh, you mentioned this. So after Spine at 2024, the narrative was you know, let's get the Barclay ball rolling. Spoke to John, Jasmine gave me a lot of her time asking questions, spoke to Damien. So um I applied in the end of 2024 for a place in 2025. Now due to legal uh like I'm not sure Lazie's watching this, but maybe I had a spot for 2025 and maybe I didn't. I chose Cocodona 250 in Arizona as my next development race, international race, and I failed there. I I DNF'd at 97 miles. Um, the reason I've not gone to the Barclay or been blessed enough to have an opportunity to go to the Barclay, because no one's got a given right, just because you've done well at the spine doesn't mean you're gonna do well there. I honestly believe that to break down that barrier, I ain't good enough right now. Something's got to something's gotta change, a psychological barrier, a different purpose to run, a different purpose to provide, or a different different realm to go into. If I'm gonna go into the realm I went to at the spine, it's gotta be, there's gotta be a different narrative. And the Barclay just like it just not quite shown itself to me. Yeah, and like that patience and that discipline to say no, I think is probably the biggest takeaway from the success I've had. Yeah, I'm not I'm not I'm not ready, I don't want to cheat the system, I want to earn my stripes, and I don't feel I've done that.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:20

Yeah, but I think that's you kind of talked about it, whether you're doing anything in life professionally, sport or otherwise, but particularly at the extremities of that you're doing it, there's got to be a real purpose and pull to that relationship with it isn't there.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:32

Yeah, and if that if that's not a fundamental, if that's uh manufactured, guess what? You're gonna fucking fail on loop loop half, not even loop one. I know. And and what if it shows itself and if the race is still around and if I get the chance when I'm 33, 35, whatever, yeah, then I'll take it and it'll be for the right reasons. But right now, I ain't gonna be a yes man and just bounce from the world's hardest race to the world's hardest race, you know, thinking I can be successful because I ain't. Yeah, I've been through agony and pain in life, I need running, and I like it's gotta be worth it. And for me, that ain't worth it right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:08

Yeah. Um we've touched upon it a little bit in the conversation, but whether it's um your first spine race, yeah, Cocodona 250, you you DNF'd. I think at the time of Cocodona, I think you were in like third place or something. Yeah, they're thereabouts. You're in the I was in the top seven, maybe six because Courtney DeWalter obviously went to the blocks flying and things like that, and I love the way she talks and tells stories around her race, mindset, the pain cave, and the rest of it. But how do you feel around your relationship with failure when a DNF hits and how that goes?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

Yeah, that's interesting. Interesting question. The frustrating thing about Coca-Dona is a as a as a package, you know, is my last. I mean, I did DNF a race this year, but that was because it was a GB qualifying race up to Skador, and after a kilometre, I rolled my ankle on an uphill only race, which I don't know how it how you do it. And then this stream of like the country's best fell runners just come and plow into me because I'm on this single track. Yeah. So that was that was a DNF of like of last year, sorry. And then uh the other DNF is Kokodona. The only thing that frustrates me with Kokodona is I didn't get a chance. And in these races, did your hamstring went? Uh yeah, I mean, I yeah, I had serious restrictions, but I've ran through I've run through worse than that. Yeah. I've ran through worse than that on the spine in 2024. So the body breaking down isn't for me isn't a good enough excuse.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:30

The race got away from me. I didn't show composure or patience, and literally half an hour after I'd gone, left the race, it developed and the storyline developed, and the doorways opened, Courtney was out, the weather changed, just bit me tongue, things have just got British, the lights come in on the next day. But when I was in the when I was in it, I couldn't see that. That's really frustrating for a runner of my caliber and and what I pride myself on. So that that was really frustrating. But if I DNF a race due to physical, um, how can I put it? Like physical restrictions, then I'm o I'm okay with that. And Kokadona was somewhere in between. I'd done 97 miles competitively, that is nowhere near enough in this landscape, in this environment. Um and I I just had to say no that time, it's frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:20

Do you think Jack Scott at his darkest point of you know gambling and keeping it to yourself and really having a lot of that self-doubt and worth? Do you think he could believe of like where you're at now and what you've achieved?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:34

Um no, obviously the answer's gonna be no. Um I th I think maybe he could believe he he could be successful, but not in sport, maybe not not in things that take so that take so much out of you. Um yeah, and people measure success in different ways, don't they? Um, you know, we're talking about this extremity that I've lived and I'm living. But you know, for the layman man, the success might just be in that middle middle zone. I thought maybe I'd have set sat in that middle zone and not been a yeah, a top performer, but I just I just realised just put yourself in in areas surround yourself with people you can trust and who care about you, put yourself in areas where you can grow, and all of a sudden the ball is rolling. And that that's education, you know. That that that that's education from a nine, ten, eleven-year-old. I I didn't necessarily have that, but that's what school is. You know, I had to go back to school to fucking get where I've got got to. Studying, learning, listening through the sport, like reading books. I hadn't read a book for fucking ages, then COVID came and I started reading coaching books, reading about the Kenyons, reading about the cadence. But I always had the physical, there's the psychological uh nouse, and I needed to learn about the physical, and that that that took three years.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:46

Yeah, brilliant. And I think it's um there'll be a lot of people listening, watching. A lot of them have no attachment to running, they'll be in businesses, they'll be in schools, the rest of it, and I think there's so many different messages and learns that people can take from this. So I really appreciate again just your your candidness and openness.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:04

Well, if you you've got to wear your scars like you wear your medals, because it's all part of the fucking story, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:09

For sure, for sure. You mentioned you're not a big book reader there, um, but with this podcast, we're trying to you know lead people towards some recommendations from our guests and things. If there's one that stands out for you, or whether it might be a book, it might be a podcast, another resource, but is there anything that you feel that's maybe shaped or influenced you the most?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:29

Um I mean if it was a if it was a sporting book, it would be Mike Hartley's autobiography. So Mike Hartley is an old school runner who had the pen and wear record for a very long time, and and just when I was in my growth stage and when I was learning, so between 2020 and 2023, a lot of Mike's terminology and a lot of Mike's um philosophies, I've I literally felt like it was taught he was talking to me. Um yeah, like and some people say that when they when they read a certain book, whether it's a love novel or something else, but I felt like the words were directed to me, and I'm blessed to have actually I've been I'm meeting Mike in June and I've had conversations with Mike and he's supported my my running journey looking from an outsider in. Um so Mike Hartley's book, which I can't remember the name of, so you'll just have to Google Mike Hartley's book. Uh and then just if like if you're interested in a in an area of the country, whether it's a certain trail, a certain range, a mountain range, wherever in the UK, like go go a little bit deeper and learn the history and learn the summits and pick up a novel around that and just start branching out the amount of novels and the amount of material I read around the Pennine Way and the history of it, Wainwright's book, like I I let it engulf me. And I'm not saying I got obsessed with it, but I I knew that to do something different I had to I had to go beyond the realms of like the physical barriers and just like I just I just I got intertwined with the north, intertwined with the Penn Eine Way, and in the end that paid off.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:06

Yeah, brilliant. Um a few more questions just before we wrap. Um if you could go for a coffee or another drink of choice um with a top performer or leader, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who would it be and what would you ask?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:18

Well, I'm not gonna lie, on the train up here, I have tried to pronounce this man's name uh and had Google Translate read it out to me. But um Yvonne Chinard, who is the founder and owner of Patagonia, uh, very successful man, uh French Canadian. Why does he stand out as a as a influence to me or an influence to sort of what I believe in, is because he started something that has grown into a juggernaut of a cut of a company and another movement, you know. Of course, yeah. But reading his story and uh having my ear to the ground, he used it to pursue his own endeavours to get deeper into the mountains, to get deeper into adventure. And in the long run, when there was money flying around and when there was success, it actually sunk into his values instead of being elevated to a new realm or a new place, he sunk in to who he is, who he was, and he didn't change. He went he went backwards, he just simplified his life. And like he now he's given his company away and he's he's saving the environment. I'm not gonna jump on the on the bandwagon the environment. But what I'm saying is the way this man could have had anything and everything, yeah, and he actually went the complete opposite way. Yeah, and for me, what would that look like? It would be I don't know, reaching a certain height or reaching a certain financial status, and then disappear into Switzerland with my dog and my wife and just looking after goats for the rest of my life. That is all I want. When you when you can go from one extreme to another, and this man was in the public eye and he was he had responsibilities, he looked after everyone, and he just took a step back and just simplified his life. I think that's a beautiful. Way to live, and he didn't get drawn in by the lights or the noise or the crap.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:05

Um, and he was doing that at a stage of life where the internet was was growing and it was much more organic. Yeah, I think that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:12

Yeah, brilliant. Um, my brother's a massive fan of his as well and recommends his book a lot in terms of being that higher purpose of what you're doing, um differentiating between just just the real world and where you sit in it, and like having the ability to just totally extract yourself and simplify and look after your little corner.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:31

We've all got a little corner of the world, yeah. Right, four walls and a roof. If you can just look after that and like and surround yourself with people and and live clean and and be happy and try, like the world the everything will just be smoother and better.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:46

Yeah, what's your most important non-negotiable as an athlete or a coach?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:51

Accountability for the athlete, to be honest. Like the the coach can set it, the coach can can do it. Um, you've got to be accountable for the good, the bad, and the ugly. So when we talk about Coca Donna, accountable for that, accountable for the amazing things that I've managed to achieve as well, and they all go hand in hand and they're all the same thing at the end of the day. It it it it I measure Coca-Dona disappointment with the same level of enthusiasm as the spine win. Yeah, great, just experiences, knowledge for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:21

Um, when you're coaching or leading a team, which behaviours are you least tolerant of?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:26

Um people who use interesting terminology, um at like when they're when they're describing what they want to do or what they think they should be able to achieve, or like I think the way you word something is absolutely crucial in just hoodwinking your brain to believing in it. I had a chat with a client last night um who was talking about forcing himself out the door on a on a Sunday to like you know to occupy the plan and to get in what he needs to do. Like I need like I need to do it. I'm like, no, you want to do it. Yeah, like if you need to do it, like just it's exactly the same thing, just switch the word around because it might get you out of bed with a different purpose, it might get you on on the fells um with with just a different a different feeling, and that's that it that's crucial. Wording, terminology, and the way you portray yourself is crucial for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:18

Um what three words with your would your teammates, colleagues, and friends use to describe Jack Scott?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:24

Interesting. Uh loyal, tough and dour. Yeah, I was described by one of my running heroes, Damien Hall, as dower, uh, in a post-rate interview, and I'm happy with that word.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:41

Yeah. I'm glad you said tough, because I think that's definitely one word I would be using. Um you mentioned a few different names today in terms of people that have influenced you, but if you could choose two that have influenced you the most, both as an athlete and the person you are today, who would they be?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:56

Interesting. Um I mean a lot of these people don't they like I mean I could name many, like they don't they don't know how much they've influenced me, but I'd go for I'd go for I'd go for my wife just for just for giving me a platform an opportunity and just like when someone does something so crucial for you that like they don't even realise they're doing it and just show like when you're vulnerable and when you're hurting, or even when you're successful and everything's shiny, like she's just been and continues to be like an absolute um just a just a pillar of of everything that I need. Um, like I said, between the 2023 and 2024, she said you'll get what you deserve. I didn't know what meant. You know, I could have meant that could have could have meant getting airlifted off crossfell, feeling greedy and feeling gluttonous or glutinous, or you know, touching the wall and winning the race. She she that's that's again terminology, I just found it fascinating. It's something that stands out so much in my brain.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:00

But I think it's I think everybody can take that because the whole classic, if you're you know, um failing to prepare is preparing to fail, and like mostly in life you'll get what you deserve. Um I think it's powerful, like people can learn from Jess.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:13

Yeah, but like, you know, did I deserve to fail? And was the was the run falling apart in 2024 at crucial points? Yeah, it was. In these long runs, just jumping in, there's gonna be four or five crucial moments that you've gotta you've gotta survive and you've got to see the next one. And it the people who navigate that, it's not the people who makes make the most least amount of mistakes, it's the people who just those mistakes they just don't let it affect them. They nod their head, they acknowledge them, and they move on from them, they don't get wound up. Um so Jess would be one, and then uh he's not gonna like it, but I'd say I'd say Scott, Scott at work because he's just been and like when I started growing my business and like I changed my working hours and my working relationship, he's just supported me. Like, he's just giving me whatever I needed, you know, wherever I needed, whenever I needed it. He's been flexible, and he's realised that a lad from construction to do what I've done and to change the persona and to change the image, it I'm not gonna say it's like one in a million, but it's like it's rare, and he's he's latched on to that and he understands that. So Scott's been crucial.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:21

Amazing. He sounds like a top-top man. He is a good guy. Um if you can have a five-minute conversation with a 15-year-old Jack Scott, what would you say to him?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:30

Ride it out, back yourself, and don't be don't be scared to make mistakes. I think I think you can survive it. Love that. And remember where you come from, like remember I'm not talking uh uh a rough upbringing on a council estate or a rough upbringing here and there, like that's not necessarily relevant for me, but just remember your place and rem remember remember where you've been for sure. And I think honestly, some of those dark days when I was 16, 17, 18, I'll I'll be thinking about when I'm 80, I think, all being well.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:04

Yeah, amazing. Final question, um, what's the best piece of advice you've been given that you can pass on to an audience?

SPEAKER_00 1:34:11

Um there's two phrases, but it's the same thing. You you can't want two things at once. You know, in your mind, there's got there's got like can you want two chocolate bars right now? Like, no, it's gotta be gotta be one, you've got to be decisive, and you've got to you've got to understand where where you want to be. Um and the the other the other one would be you can't be in two places at once. I learned that I've learned that in business, I've learned that in sport. Um you can't necessarily be the best husband and the best athlete, you can't necessarily be the best friend and the best athlete. I'm I'm trying to break that mould and be be, you know what I said before about not being one dimensional, not being the best athlete, but a shit husband or a shit friend. I want to try and be the best. And I realise that might affect performance now and then, and I'm I'm okay with that. So I would say you you can't be in two places at once.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:01

Brilliant. I am going to squeeze one more question in. How do you feel now in terms of your level of are you content with where you're at? That level of you talked a lot today around when you're running because there's that level of happiness and things like that. How do you feel within yourself now and kind of where you're at on your journey?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:17

Interesting. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm I'm happy, I'm I'm proud. Sometimes running is the massive focus and takes up 100% of my day. Sometimes the days where you know I'm talking to people about their story and I don't even think about myself. It's just it's just it's just like water off a duck's back. I mean, I've got a project in the in the in the stages, in the latter stages that I'll be I'll be doing in the summer that is gonna challenge me, strip me bare, and I'm gonna have to find a level beyond what I did at the spine in a in a different way. So I'm intrigued with that. And then after that, um we'll we'll go back to the the drawing board, we'll let life come, you know, we'll we'll let opportunities show themselves and we'll just live. I'll we'll just I'll just live and then I'll see what what's round the corner from that.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:03

I don't I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:04

Great. Well listen, I can't thank you enough for today. You've been very open with us, I've taken a lot away from it. Um, and I look forward to watching the next chapter of your journey. So, Jack Scott, thanks for joining me.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:14

Top man, thank you.