Gill Wilkinson | Decision-Making Under Pressure, Leadership Lessons From The Army & Growing Up During The Troubles | EP 6

An insightful and thought-provoking conversation with Brigadier Gill Wilkinson, a senior leader in the British Army with nearly three decades of experience.

From growing up during the Troubles in Northern Ireland to becoming a trailblazer for women in the Army, Gill’s journey is one of leadership, resilience and service. 

In their conversation, Lewis & Gill explore:

🔵 What leadership really looks like when the stakes are high

🔵 How to make decisions under pressure with incomplete information

🔵 The concept of “disciplined initiative” and empowering decision-making at every level

🔵 What people get wrong about leadership, hierarchy and command

🔵 The realities of leadership in the Army versus common perceptions

🔵 How early experiences during the Troubles shaped her perspective on life, leadership and responsibility

📖 Gill’s book recommendation: Gravitas by Carolyn Goyder

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I think there was a constant fear. You weren't really conscious of it. Knowing up there wasn't there wasn't real intention.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We might become in the moment. What did that actually look like? The light will be independent. Do you feel the weight of those decisions in the moment?

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Really care for your soldiers, but sometimes have to make decisions which individually are not. What does that actually look like in private? Everything is about succeeding in the mission. Doesn't mean things don't go wrong.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Jill, thank you very much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

It's a pleasure, Leis. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

You're busy in the world of education again just now in the British Army. How's that looking?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Yes, I'm effectively a student this year again, which is is is great at my age and stage. I'm very lucky to be on the Global Strategy Programme, which is at the Royal College of Defence Studies in London. And uh yeah, uh not sure I was 100% sure what I was going to when I applied, uh, but it's a course um I'm technically a student at King's College London, uh, but a real privilege to have um the opportunity to work with international colleagues. Uh there's um 112 people on the course from 45 different nations, both military and civilian, and industry in the UK, because I think most of the world is uh realizing that defence is not uh just for people in uniform. And so a real privilege to be learning and learning from some really clever and accomplished people.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Great. Listen, thank you so much for joining me today. There's a lot I'd want to pick your brains on. Um particularly for the course you're doing just now. I think never before has just the the world of our civilians been so aware of what's going on in terms of global global threat, defence and things like that. But I know from from previous conversations we've had, you've got an amazing story and you've worked your way through the different ranks of the army. So there'd be a lot of different things I'd love to touch upon today. Um I'd love to start with maybe a difficult question for you. How do you define great leadership?

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Um I suppose one of the problems of coming through an organization that thinks so much about leadership is how often you do learn or at least get exposed to definitions. So I have thought about this a lot. Um I think leadership is uh you only need leadership if you've got to go somewhere. It's an A to B. So I think leadership is about motivating a group of people, usually. We could say there's self-leadership, but a group of people to do something, to do a task, and and to do more than they would have done without that leadership. I think leadership is the is the bit that brings out the discretionary effort from people. Yeah. Um and and you know, to to a common purpose, I guess is the is the the binding principle.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Really good. Love that. And um your rank in the army is brigadier. Can you tell us a little bit more on what brigadier is and what what does that mean in the from a ranking perspective?

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Um yeah, it's uh I mean I'm a I'm a reservist, so I was a regul in the regular army. Um when I was a young junior officer, I thought brigadiers were very, very senior. But of course, as you go up, there's always somebody more senior than you. Um so uh uh typically um a brigadier could command a brigade. Um I won't do that. There wasn't a brigade for a reservist to command when I was at that point. There is now, which is fantastic, and and a fantastic colleague of mine is is command for that brigade at the minute. Uh, but a brigade could be anything between sort of two or three thousand people, and and sometimes at war, it's uh certainly in Afghanistan, six to seven thousand people in in most recent military conflicts. Um that sounds huge, and often civilians think that's a huge big command, and it is. Uh, but of course, that's there are various levels of command below that. I commanded a regiment, and that's typically a lieutenant colonel, which you go lieutenant colonel, then full colonel, and then brigadier. So um, yeah, the the the types of jobs you do as a brigadier in both the regular army and the reserve more typically are policy related or planning, capability and acquisition, personnel, um training policy, those types of things. So it's the often commanding a desk with with teams of people working for you as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Brilliant. Taking it back to, I guess maybe I mean you tell me what maybe what age, but when was that first time you thought you were you were looking for a role in the army? Do you remember that moment of it being a career aspiration for yourself or maybe a calling?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I d I do actually, and it's um it was it was fairly random. I remember I think I was about 15 or 16 and watching television, and I think it was panorama or one of the one of those types of documentaries, and they did uh uh just one episode on the first woman going through Sandhurst, uh, because women only um went through training there. It used to be used to be a separate college for women, and and men went to Sandhurst, and in the 80s that changed. And they did a documentary, and whilst it was still a very different course than the one I ended up doing, I I saw the the iconic Sandhurst building, you know, they should followed them and showed the um the sort of horse going up the step, all the things that people see as um as as icons of of the Sandhurst experience, and watched that and thought, oh, I could do that. And I and my dad was was watching it with me, and I remember frequently him sort of bringing it back up again at other times in life. I I wasn't 100% set on it then, um, but it it came up again probably when I went off to just as I went off to university, I thought actually uniformed service of some sort, and it was either the navy or the army I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

And what was the was it the fact that you're seeing uh women do that? Or was it a combination of everything that you kind of saw in that in that TV show that kind of really thought, wait, this is something that I want to do and is obviously achievable from what you've seen?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

I th I think I mean at those times I the the woman bit was important because there were a lot of opportunities that weren't open. Um I'd thought about the police force, my dad was a police officer, uh, and even then, women's role was very different. I grew up in Northern Ireland, so the army was very visible. Um, but again, you didn't see many women. Um, I guess I've always been a little bit guilty of trying to break the mould and do something that nobody else wanted to do, or or do something that surprised people a little bit, perhaps, um, for good or for bad.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

So maybe that was the the root in.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

And where does that come from in terms of you clearly got uh an inbuilt, I guess, desire to serve or to for duty? Where does that come from? You talked about maybe your you know your father being a police officer in Northern Ireland. What are some of your maybe poor memories of that that maybe shaped that desire to be in a service-led role?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

I think I was in every uniformed organization. I it wasn't conscious, you know. I was I was in the girls' brigade, I joined the Army Cadet Force as soon as they would let girls in in my school. Um I was in the St. John's ambulance, even that had a little uniform. Uh and and I say partly I was surrounded in the troubles, it was very overt, you know, the army was in the public eye, my dad's police mum. My mum was a um a civil servant in the health service. Uh, so it probably mostly my mum. I think her her public service should a lot of volunteering as well. There was definitely an ethos of service. Um, and I mean, I don't mean that in a totally altruistic way. I just mean by default, the community looked out for each other where I grew up, and I enjoyed the activities. And if, you know, aside from the the service bit, I enjoyed the the outdoors bit of it, the not being routine, uh the the opportunity of as I say doing something that's completely different that you couldn't do in any other way.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

What were you seeing from your your parents at that time in terms of their work and their behaviors that maybe you know subconsciously led you towards that career and some of that that those formative observations that you saw in terms of how they were behaving, what they were doing to clearly going above and beyond most people. But what did that look like as a as a child?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

I guess it would I mean some of it it's almost the paradox of the bad bits of it. Um my dad, I think we've talked before, my dad was shot quite early in the troubles, quite seriously injured, and and he did get back to work. But nowadays I think he would have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder. Um that wasn't a term that was used. And also not only because of his own injury, but also he saw many of his friends um severely injured and killed. And and growing up, there was a there was a real chaos and tension at home, you know, always trying to not upset dad. Um, my mum working very hard to just keep family together. So it was tough, but actually that there's resilience that comes from that too, yeah, I think. Um, and I saw what my parents sacrificed for us and for for their own family, you know, to stay there and to, you know, a lot of people just left Northern Ireland, um, but they stayed to, you know, because of family and because of of their role in in community.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

What was it like for you being, you know, daughter to you know police officer that's been shot? What was was it quite a scary time? Were you always worrying what dad was doing and and how things what was going on around you? Or like because people you see it now and you see it in documentaries around the troubles, but to be growing up and that and being so close to home, literally, what what did that kind of look and feel like?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Can you it's funny because yes, it's uh it's crazy to look back at it because yes, there was I think there was a constant fear, but we weren't really conscious of it because it wasn't that was normality. It was so constant that it was normal, you know, not being able to answer the doorbell when it rang, or constantly having to watch out for something. And and and it wasn't just us, you know, the many people around me, whether they're whether their parents were in the security professors forces or not or not, uh, you know, there was a tension, there was a watch in your back. Um there were you know, there were numerous people at my school whose whose um parents or siblings were were killed. Um and I'm not saying it was just normal, clearly it wasn't normal, but it was normal for us. And and you just sort of head down and got on with it.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

It's that thing, isn't it? I think nowadays with social media and everything on TV, it's so easy to almost see and feel and empathize with what's going on in different parts of the world. Whereas to your point, and if if that's all you know, it's it's it is your normal.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yeah, you know, guns, guns in the house, you know, my dad always had to have his personal protection weapon. Uh, but you know, passing soldiers with rifles in their hands, arms, you know, I just show my age on a podcast. I was born in 71, you know, that the bloody Sunday, the troubles, all of that, you know, there were people carrying guns right beside you in the street, and you didn't give it a second thought. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and that's quite shocking. Um, you know, would I choose to take my children to go and live somewhere where there was that threat? Uh no. But I did didn't know any different.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Did your dad ever talk about the the why and his purpose and why he, you know, he persevered through that and didn't?

unknown 12:07

No.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

No, I um both my parents are dead now, and it's funny because you you wish you'd asked them things earlier, you know. Um, but he he was uh he joined the police before the trouble started.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

And it's not to say everything was rosy in Northern Ireland before the trouble started, but he came from um the city of Armagh, which was quite a mixed community and uh in in religious terms, and uh, but he grew up, or you know, from what I know, he grew up um with friends from both sides of the community, and he joined the police to be a policeman. He regretted what he had to be in a way that it was a different type of policing. But certainly, so the stories he told, and people told have told me about him, you know, he was respected by both sides of the community in Northern Ireland. I don't like that phrase, both sides of the community, you know, but um it's typically used by Northern Ireland. And um, you know, we grew up with with friends of all religions on none, and my dad certainly was respected by people from from you know, leaders from both sides of the community.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Yeah, well. Um you've obviously referred to that moment of you know watching it on TV and thinking, oh, I want to do that. You know, kind of progressing through those formative years and maybe into your late teens, and when was that next moment around actually starting to formulate a plan of actually you wanted to become in the army? What did that actually look like in in practice?

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Well, I thought the ahead of me at school there were a few people. People kept what they did quite quiet if they went into the forces, who sometimes you bump into them years later and went, I didn't even know you joined. Uh but there was there were a few friends of mine who had joined the Navy a few years ahead of me, and they were saying, Oh, you'd love the Navy, and the women were just about to go off to sea. And I thought about that, and then I decided I would go to university first because you know, your years at university were credited to some degree in military service. Uh, and then very early in my first year at university, I saw an ad in a newspaper, and it was literally in the days. I really do feel talking about this. We had to cut that out and put it in an envelope and send it back. But the advertisement was um a woman standing, and the the byline was as a woman in the army, or as a I think it was as a female officer or something, a woman in the army, you can you can cook, clean, and do the dishes. And they had uh an awful young officer um cooking over a hexiburner, you know, cooking in a in a um mess tin, if you like, uh cleaning a rifle and doing it, sat moving a satellite dish. So it was quite a you know, clever for its time. Yeah. Women sort of a generation below me saw that advertisement recently and went, that is so sexist and ridiculous. But it was funny. We took it as funny and we liked it. And many of my colleagues joined, my my peers joined off the back of that advertisement. Really? And so I filled it in, sent it off, and and I remember that the day I went for my very first interview, it wasn't a formal interview, but very first interview was the day after the first Gulf War started. And I'd been up all night listening to the you know the radio um to what was happening in the Gulf, and uh and then went from my interview the next day. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

What was that moment like when you told and you kind of said that you know your dad had said a couple times or referred to off the back of you watching it on TV? Were they very supportive of you going into you know the the army or what was that kind of conversation like and the support?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, I think they were. I mean I again times change and and uh what people might think of the of of being an officer in the army or in any of the professions has probably changed. But you know, a generation ago, you know, my grandparents were still wartime, you know, remembered the war. There was a different consciousness in society about defence, and particularly in Northern Ireland, I suppose. And uh yeah, they were definitely very proud when I got selected to go to Sandhurst and uh very uh very supportive. It it made things difficult when you went back to Northern Ireland because you had to keep, you know, had to lie, had to tell lies about what you were doing and um watch where you went and and be a bit careful. Uh but yeah, they were they were proud of what I was doing, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

What was because it's interesting, you've you referred to it a couple of times. You're really on that that transition of the first time you know women were going to war or in uniform or whatever it may be, and when you then get selected for Sandhurst, that must be obviously an incredible moment. It's very famous. But what did that then look like in terms of going into that? And actually, just for the the people that were joining that year, what did that look like in terms of women versus men?

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Well, in in those days, and until I was going to say relatively recently, maybe uh seven or eight years ago, and women were integrated in the training with men, did the same course as men when I went there. But we were in um you break down into different sections, groupings, and so there was one female platoon in my intake, so that's typically up to 30 people. There were only about 27, 28 of us at the and not that many finished for various reasons, uh, mostly injuries. Uh, and then uh it's kind of a rule of threes, three platoons in a company. So there was one female platoon and and two men's platoons, and we formed a company, and uh then there was another all male company, and in fact, the cut the the intake that I passed out with two full male companies and our company, which was two two male platoons and one female platoon.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

And how long how long was you at Santa's fall?

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Everybody says it's a year, but it's it's like an academic year, so uh well an academic year without the breaks, but um 11 months.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

11 months. Going into that, what were your aspirations? Did you have a longer-term goal or idea of what you wanted that role in the army to look like? Or what did it take me to that stage?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

No, I I didn't and reflect on that a lot actually, because I think this is where you see the impact of role models, and there weren't that many women ahead of us. There were certainly no women I knew at the time ahead of me who'd had children, because actually it used to be you had to leave when you had children. Um, and even before that, you you know, women used to have to leave when they got married. But thankfully I was I was you know ahead of that stage or behind that stage. But there were there were no women I knew. There there were probably some hidden, but we were such a small minority and and a huge army dispersed. So I didn't have any role models of women who had managed a career, stayed in, you know, with children, married, there were just none. So I was doing it with the presumption that I would leave once I had to.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah. Were you feeling then, because it's it's difficult, I guess, in the moment when again, you're not really seeing those role models ahead of you, and it's certainly difficult to think around, okay, almost the legacy or you're gonna leave. But did you feel as a bit of a trailblazer in terms of actually from a female perspective in the army that you're potentially going to become a role model, which I'm sure you have become from many over the last few years?

SPEAKER_01 19:32

I definitely didn't feel that I was a trailblazer. The you know, the women around me were I I looked in awe at many of the the ladies that I went through training with. Many of them had been in the officer training corps at university, I'd been in the cadets at school, but that was you know a different level. And they were so accomplished and and probably more ambitious. I think Northern Ireland, as well as having its trouble, it kind of sat about 10 years behind so socially in terms of progression. It was a bit more traditional. So even out with defence, I didn't, you know, didn't know many professional women in Northern Ireland, even in my my you know, teachers were the only female professionals and and occasional doctors, and but I didn't know any female lawyers, I didn't know um many senior women police officers, you know, it just wasn't those role models weren't really there. So and and whilst with hindsight, it was early days for women going through Sandhurst. We were two or three years into that, so it didn't feel like we were the first. Yeah, and and I was quite lucky in many ways. There's not many jobs that I've done where I've been the first woman. I know for for women who are in that position, it can be quite tricky.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Uh, you know, if it certainly if it's publicised or um if it's overplayed, it can be quite tricky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

What do you remember in terms of the perception versus reality of going to Sandhurst and joining the army? Maybe things that you perceived, but when you were actually in there, they were very different. Did anything really stand out from that perspective?

SPEAKER_01 21:11

I guess maybe once I was in my first job when you're a troop commander, a platoon commander, yeah. Um it did the same sort of thing, it just depends what organization and whether you called a trooper a platoon. Yeah. It was a troop for us. So I'd I'm, you know, actually ended up in that first job with 75 people I was responsible for, you know, which your first job. In my first job. Uh now, of course, I had a I had a platoon staff sergeant and other people, you know, who were making sure they kept me right. That's the the premise in the British Army. The senior soldiers kind of train the officers. It's it's unusual globally, but it's it's the way the British Army does it. So you've always got somebody keeping you right. So you're in charge, but you know very well who you need to go to for advice. Uh but having thought that it was a very or that people think of it as a masculine job, the army, um, or certainly a it is a physical job in many ways, but the skills for that first job were much more um motherly, if you like. Uh I think the welfare of your soldiers is the primary concern of any leader. Um yes, if you go to war, clearly you've got a mission and a task and a purpose, and sometimes that's in in the short term, the physical welfare you have to set aside. But the thing that gives us moral credibility is the fact that you care about your soldiers. And I shouldn't say that's a female trait, of course, it's not just a female trait, but it certainly wasn't alien to be a woman, perhaps more empathetic. Again, I think my upbringing made me a wee bit more empathetic because I was often having to tiptoe round difficult um emotional situations, and so being able to read your soldiers to mentor them to um make sure they were doing the right things for their career, that wasn't a masculine part of the job at all. Um, and so it was it was quite a relief to go and actually feel I can do this, I can do this just as well as the guy next door.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Did you feel just so equipped from what you'd done at Sandhurst that you felt ready and I guess that you you could thrive in that role, or what were the kind of emotions? Did you have a sense of whether it's imposter syndrome or just a level of you needed some of that support next year? Or how did you feel stepping in and you know leading you know 75 people in your first role?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Um, yeah, you can't you kind of get carried along because it's what you do you you do know that's what you're going to go and do. Sandhurst trains, uh it's changed a lot very recently, but but only very recently. But uh in in our time it trained primarily around what we call an infantry model. So uh, you know, what what what people see as being the the basic soldiering skills, and they do that because it's a good tool to train leadership in the round. You don't learn much about your technical profession, and I went into logistics in the army. You do another course after Sandhurst to do that, and um you get told all the way through Sanders, don't worry, you'll always have your seniors to look to. Uh, you'll always listen to your staff sergeant. And to many degrees that's true, as I've said, but actually the responsibility sits with you as a leader, and you can take advice. And sometimes I got great advice, but actually you're there for a reason. You're there because you've been trained to look at things differently. And sometimes I got bad advice, and sometimes I took bad advice, and sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I overruled and chose to do something my way, and it's a huge learning phase. You know, it's the basis of everything else you do in the army, is your first command. I did it on operations, I was back in Northern Ireland, so there was the added um added threat, I guess, of having my soldiers in a um an environment that was physically threatening to them. That focuses your mind on leadership for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

How do you balance that? You kind of touched upon it there, maybe the the empathetic skills and being close and getting that trust from your your your uh what how do you refer to them?

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Your often it said subordinates, and I don't I hate using that word because it sounds so hierarchical, but you just the soldiers, you know, but subordinate only in terms of a hierarchy.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

We have the very overt hierarchy, but it's not necessarily played out in the way that How do you strike that right balance of you know, we use the language warmth and edge, right? In terms of actually the support and the care versus actually the discipline and the performance and the the co-direction of performance. How do you balance that in the right way, particularly when you're on operation?

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah, it it oddly, it's much easier on operations because the mission's really clear, or that was 30 years ago, possibly not as clear for some people in today's complex world. Yeah. Um leadership on operations, oddly, was easier. Uh everything else is taken care of in a different way. You know, yeah, you're supported, your meals are cooked for you, you um you're the everything is about succeeding on that mission. The soldiers are generally very focused. Doesn't mean things don't go wrong. Uh, but it's something I still think I struggle with, is what we now call the warmth and edge in Canis. Uh, the ability to really care for your soldiers, but sometimes have to make decisions which individually are not the best thing or don't appear to be the best thing for them. You know, you know, if they're desperate to go and do a job or be promoted or to work in a specific area, and you have to say, look, you might think that's the best thing for you now. It might even be the best thing for you now, but it's not the best thing for the organization of the team. Uh, that's that's I don't think that's something I've ever found easy. Um, I think I really have to listen to the monkey on my shoulder, if you like, about that. And uh the canis wheel of wise leadership at the risk of sounding like um selling something. Uh I've found useful ever since I you know started working within the canis methodology of being able to think about the sustainability of the organization and and that sometimes the greater good has to trump the individual. But it's tough when the person's sitting in front of you and they have a welfare need for you to say, no, sorry, I know your grandmother's died, but I can't spare you.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Yeah. Well, it's it's interesting in terms of you know, I've interviewed a few different people for the podcast from the world of sport. I think in business, when you refer to leadership and metaphors and different examples, people tend to go to sport or the military as those different examples. Um, but within sport and running businesses, that's not as critical as you know, sometimes for yourself, you'd have to be decisions based on life or death or careers and things like that. Talk to me around the process that that's going through your mind, or maybe that you're you're trained in from that decision-making side of things, it can give you the confidence that you're going to make decisions for the you know the the the the greater good, if you like, and the common good. What does that actually look like in practice? Because that's serious decision making under pressure. How does that look? And how do you become equipped in that?

SPEAKER_01 28:54

It's so you are literally, uh we are literally taught a way of thinking. Uh uh, there's what's known now as the estimate process, and it's a formal set of processes that you go through. Now, sometimes in a command wartime situation, you won't have time to do anything more than a quick assessment. But you're taught to pause, even in, you know, even in war, uh you're taught drills so that you do the immediate actions you need to do and that you take time when you can to think. Uh the estimate process um can be done in in many, many um complex or less complex ways, but it it effectively forces you to think of more than one course of action and to score it, if you like, you know, to measure it against uh different criteria. Uh your criteria might be given to you from above, or they might be things that you have to consider yourself that are more enduring, depending on the longevity of the task or uh or whether it's just a you know a quick action. Um so there are lots of tools. Of course, the thing is no tool is perfect. And and I think I recognise also as you get more senior in leadership, we need people who think differently. So whilst we need to have a doctrine, if you like, a way of thinking to allow us to work quickly and a shared understanding, that also brings with it a risk of people thinking too much the same way, group think. And and because the military um is bottom-fed, um, effectively, you know, yes, officers can can go in to start as officers, but we can't bring somebody in at a higher level. Uh, or traditionally you can't. There are ways and means now for that sort of Ned type role. Uh, you know, we need people to think differently. And so certainly the forces is looking at how we don't filter out people who think differently.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

I think that's quite interesting to hear from like a layman, if you like, because you'd almost think that everybody's taught to think the exact same way and make the exact same decision in the exact same circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

And you know, 50 years ago that might have worked. Yeah. Um, because you had your doctrine and you know, you you it that happened, but the world is too complex. And of course, if we all think the same, then it doesn't take the enemy long to work out what you're thinking. You know, for if we're in that in that type of scenario. So we really need to, you know, get ahead of get ahead of the the thinking of the enemy. So you always need to have a different perspective. You want to put yourself in someone else's shoes all the time. And when you get into the strategic leadership sphere, a lot of what I'm learning about this year, um, you know, you're considering the culture aspects of different um different nations, how things are perceived, how populations perceive the leadership above them, and and the impact on, well, we I think we know what's going on in the world, how you know one country, one leader's decisions kind of impact the global sphere. Uh, and and so yeah, uh understanding other people's thinking, or understanding when you just can't predict what people are thinking and have to hedge against it is is really important.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Yeah, that lens of putting yourself in somebody else's shoes, you know, it's something that you hear a lot around in our day-to-day work or in sport. What are the opposition gonna do? How are we gonna counteract that? What formation are we going to play in football? Um whereas, you know, it kind of really rings true when you say, What are the enemy gonna do and what are they thinking? What's uh talk me through that process of yeah, stepping inside that and seeing things seeing things through that lens. Um, because that must be something that you do a lot, but it must be difficult.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Yeah, it's true. I mean, there are specialists in it. You know, I can't, you know, of course, um there are people whose job it is to gather intelligence about you know that that's no secret. There are people who become experts in that. But also we build into our planning processes things like you know, uh this is in business now too, red teaming. Uh, you know, a lot of a lot of things that I hear back in my in my civilian roles, I'm like, ah yeah, well, where do you think that metaphor came from then? But you know, red teaming and uh, you know wearing different hats, that type of idea. You know, that comes from real life military things. Uh uh the sorry, getting back to what you what you were really asking, what the enemy's thinking, of course, the speed of change now is probably the biggest challenge. Again, you know, 50 years ago, 100 years ago, you know, change on the battlefield was quite uh, you know, relatively slow. You know, when we when we moved to armoured tanks, that was a huge shift. When we moved to having aircraft and the RAF, huge shift in how warfare played out. But what's happened over the last five years is and you know, onset of uh AI, drone technology, you know, the the the shift in warfare is is uh unprecedented and it's only getting quicker. So we need to be uh constantly predicting and constantly changing because the risk of uh falling behind is is is really huge.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

In terms of maybe not a specific decision, but maybe sets of decisions, what did you find the hardest kind of decisions to make in your role, whether it's an operation or otherwise? What were the ones that were really the the most difficult to make?

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Um I think if I was thinking back to the operation that was probably most challenging, and not because of threat to life, and I I ran um the port in in Bosnia, actually. Well, it wasn't in Bosnia, the port was in Croatia, um bringing all of the um assets in during the Balkans war, or actually after the Balkans war was over, but we've still had a lot of troops in keeping the peace in the Balkans. And the the safety of soldiers, it it was a really exhausting um job at times, you know, went through peaks and troughs. But the making making decisions uh over risk to life, and again, not not because of enemy action, but because of fatigue, because of um, you know, you know, we had regulations about how long people could drive, and uh, you know, nighttime driving, numbers of people, you know, being able to rotate through. But there was always risk there. And and of course, taking risks with other people's lives is the inherent part of being it, but it's it's probably no different for somebody who works in the NHS. You know, you're you're taking risk with other people's lives.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

That's really tough when when you just can't control the factors around it, I think.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

So I'm trying to think of a an example. You know, we did have soldiers who got injured. Um, not yeah, life-changing injuries, thankfully, we didn't lose any soldiers um close to me in that operation.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Do you feel the weight of those decisions in the moment or or are you just I guess depending on who you are, but I and knowing you that in terms of that level of empathy and risk and but like the weight of those when it is ultimately people join the army knowing they could lose their life and they're gonna their lives are gonna be at risk. But when it comes to the the weight of those decisions, do they does that hang a little bit differently over you?

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah, definitely. And not I think one of the unusual things about the military and being a leader in the military is it's not just those people who have joined, it's their families too. Now that's that's changed over the years, you know. But when I joined the army, most people were, you know, we did our postings in Germany, posted around more. The army's more stable now than it used to be. And often, you know, the spouses had given up their careers because the nomadic lifestyle wasn't good, or they were maybe taking a break because it was the time of life to have children. So you got to know your soldiers' families, their children, their partners, but you also had responsibilities. Certainly in Germany, um, you know, we were, you know, you were there, you weren't just looking after the soldier. Every decision you made when you said, sorry, leaves cancelled, you need to do this duty this weekend, or this course this weekend. It wasn't just the soldier you were making miserable, it was it was other people too. And um, yeah, um it's it's hard, you know, but you you realize you want to be respected for the job you're doing. Those sound like really trivial, trivial examples, but it's the weight of that, the weight of the impact of your decisions on everybody that in in that family chain, I think.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Yeah, it's different. I can I can only imagine um what that's like. Um you talked earlier on just in your answer around defining great leadership, around influencing others to do something that they otherwise maybe wouldn't have done, and that being attached to a purpose. How do you do that? You know, and whether it's people that are just working in businesses or schools or teams, but the within the army and how you did that, what did that kind of look like in practice? The the how behind that? Because that's obviously the the secret sauce for getting the best and the high performance set of people, but easier said than done, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah, yeah, secret I like it, definitely secret sauce. I mean, again, a bit like when I said about ways of thinking, part of that ways of thinking is thinking about what your commander wants, but also what your two-up commander wants. So, not just what does the boss want to do, what's the boss's boss want to do? And and if I said like a brigadier could be commanding a brigade, you know, two up from that, well, one up from that's a division, two up from that, we don't have in the British Army as a core, you know, we don't have a full core. Uh so you're really trying to get inside the head of the person two up. And so when you and then you're thinking two down, so you're thinking, well, how am I going to give, translate their intent, um, the highest level intent, and the why? That's always the important bit, is the why. Uh, and make that relevant to two down, simplifying it if necessary, because sometimes there's stuff that really isn't necessary for all of you know everybody to know it, not because they couldn't understand it, but because you want to keep them focused on on their part in the plan. Yeah, the army's always very much about the why. You know, when you give a mission formally, um, it is we're going to do this in order to. Every, you know, it's got the words in order to, and the in order to is the reason beyond it. And that allows you to also change the plan if something else happens that you're not expecting, because the in order to hasn't changed.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Yeah. Does that fascinating, yeah. You said earlier on in terms of just well, the maybe two levels above. Um, you're trying to think around what decisions would they make, or how does that actually look in practice in terms of is there a line of communication, or is it just always you're always speaking to one up, or is there broader, you know, think around the business world of leadership all hands calls and conference calls and things like that. But what is there in terms of those different layers of the hierarchy coming together, or does it look different in terms of where you maybe when you're in operation and things?

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah, more and more now, because communication allows it. You know, we do have huge sort of general staff dial-ins for, you know, from the top of government so MOD, civil servant, you know, we there's a lot of communication. Sometimes I'm not saying there is too much, but there's a risk that there's too much, because actually that can dilute the message. The the simple days of my youth where every time my boss would give me an order, and that's that sounds very formal, you know, would tell me what the next task was and and what they wanted from it, they would be giving me their two up. You know, so yeah, so it's part of the culture of the language that you use in the military is we're doing this because, and and these are the bosses' priorities here. Yeah, and and we do it because you have to be that's what allows delegation and that's what allows empowerment. Um, only if you really know what they want to achieve, can or you know, even if an individual knows what their boss wants, knowing what their boss's boss wants gives them the freedom to go, ah, John's not here today. I'm gonna have to act without asking questions, without going back and begging for direction at every step. If I know what the two-up plan is, if I know what the two-up intention is or the vision, the overarching vision, then I can act within it and know that I'm going in the right direction. Might not do exactly what they would have done. I I fear that that's something that's at risk in terms of um culture now, because it's far too easy to say, give me a ring if you need advice. Now that's not a bad thing to say, but I think we overuse it. Um because you know, in early in my career, you if you were duty officer looking after a camp with a couple of hundred probably a couple of thousand in some cases soldiers on it, your duty officer, you might have someone else on call, but by God, you better really need to be calling them because they don't want to be disturbed, you know. And you were making decisions way above what what I think nowadays would be deemed normal. But you had to because that that was the duty and that was the responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

What does that feedback loop look like in terms of how good a job you're doing and the decisions that you're making and the impact? What does that feedback loop look and feel like with whether it is one up or two up and you're getting clarity on how well a job you're doing in terms of decision making?

SPEAKER_01 43:34

You mean sort of formally appraisal processes is very defined in in across all of defence, all the forces, quite similar. We've we've got a joint service publication. There's a joint service publication for everything. Uh, but we do have uh typically across defense, we get an annual appraisal, and your your performance is judged, and your potential is judged separately. separately um by your one up and then your two up and this is this I know I'm getting into this this terminology your boss's boss also writes on you in your potential uh they used to also write in performance but it yeah it was just generally repeating what the what the the the one up said and and it recognises two things there it does recognize that somebody higher is looking for your real stretch potential um and they've got more experience uh but but also um that performance and potential aren't necessarily or performance isn't always the best indicator of potential so you could be just performing adequately at your job but you might have higher potential for something else or vice versa you could be brilliant at your current job and have no potential to proceed and and that's why they separate the two things out because we're looking for something else and in the military usually that's a leadership function and and the different types of leadership you know that tactical leadership at a junior soldier and junior officer level or operational leadership and then strategic leadership as you get you know they are I think you need to have the tactical and the operational to get to strategic but uh you won't not everybody uh enjoys the strategic you're moving away from soldiers and for some people you know uh staying with your soldiers in command and your soldiers is is is the best bet but there is no career profile that allows you to do that forever.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

So do you get um pushback from soldiers or when you're making a decision or is that just not allowed at all? If you if you give an order is it that's like what does that look like at all? Do people question it or push back or what does that actually look like in terms of what's allowed or what's common with within it?

SPEAKER_01 45:56

I think I think it's it's quite um unlike what people would expect. So when you give an order an order's an order unless it's not legal order but we don't go straight to that we would often we there's always room to question and you would hope that wouldn't be at the order stage you know and and I I suppose I'm mixing situations here because of course it in war when you get an order that's one thing. But of course we're not at war all the time but we use similar processes. Uh typically when we are planning something that's going to require decisions to be made we do bring everybody in and we expect them to well when I say everybody clearly it wouldn't make sense to have every single person in the organisation involved nor would it be good leadership but the best leaders I have seen definitely seek the views of those below them and and actually often our officers are fairly general not always but they can't be specialists in everything that they look after. So you will go to the expert who may well be you know a more junior rank and ask for advice and then the other unusual thing I think is that because we do have rank and we wear it it allows you to be it allows you to seek criticism in a different way because you know you can say well purple Jones you know this is what I'm thinking what do you think but we shouldn't say it that way around I should ask them first. But if you said purple Jones this is what I think what do you think they might they'll happily say I think that's barking ma'am but because they'll say ma'am at the end there's no coup they're not disobeying you've asked them for their advice and you say okay why you know all right okay I hadn't even thought about that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

But because they can still show you respect for your rank yeah um you know they'll quite happily do it they'll give you the truth if you ask a soldier to tell you the truth they generally will which is brilliant um that's really good so I want to touch upon the concept of disciplined initiative um because this is something you know within the the world of what we do we'd talk to yourself in terms of just in passing and joking and what Don had said to you um oh it's easy for you in the army you just tell people to to do and they just do it and you you came back and said quite the opposite talk to us a little about disciplined initiative what is that concept and why it is so critical within the within the army and I think we can refer to it in businesses as well.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Yeah and and I think this is again how warfare has changed over the years um soldiers have a huge amount of responsibility even very junior soldiers we we talked in in in the days of Iraq in Afghanistan about the strategic corporal because a corporal is the a level who'd be out commanding maybe eight people on a patrol and if they do something wrong you know really wrong or even if they struggle and look a bit daft somebody could be there with a camera somebody's recognizing what they do um the impact of what a corporal you know fairly you know they've gone up two ranks since they joined the army could have a a really strategic effect you know if that's all over the news or you know you know they've they've gone against policy they've they've made some mistake we have to be able to trust our soldiers some mistakes will happen we're human but we don't just give orders and expect them to to be carried out in that way and it comes back to that bit about the why uh disciplined initiative for me and and we call it mission command in the military is about giving people their again another military metaphor their left and right of ARC you know this is the direction I want you to go don't go further than this in that direction and don't go further than this in that direction. And those are the constraints and those could be when I take that into business those constraints might be financial you know this is this is what I want you to do this is the most amount of money that you're going to get to invest you know I'd rather you were down here somewhere uh it might be uh there's an option of detaching more troops to support you in this this um task uh you know come and tell me if you need them you know so that sort of iterative cycle in planning is very normal in the military before there's a formal order and even after the formal orders you know there will be opportunities for for a feedback loop of okay boss I've gone away and and I've I've tried to make my plan based on what you've ordered me to do here's where I think my risks are and if you could just give me X or Y that would mitigate that or it might be you do you know what boss this is easy actually I've got a corporal who can do that tomorrow and I don't even need all of the resources.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Yeah great well for you personally everybody talks and I'm terrible at switching off from work but what's that like in terms of when you're coming away from operation or back to your young family whatever it may be are you quite good at switching off or how what does it look like for yourself personally because it's you've got imagine some big stuff on your mind a lot but how does that look for you personally?

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Yeah you know I I'm not good at it and I and of course it's different because I'm I moved to be a reservist and mostly I've been back and forward between full-time and part-time but mostly when the children were young I was doing part-time but but that but I think your point remains true in that because whilst I wasn't necessarily away in operations then um I did you know I was getting paid to do a part-time job that was permanently in my mind yeah because you're still commanding those people you're still looking after those people's welfare yeah whether you're on duty or off duty yeah so I'm not very good at it and I have to work quite hard at doing it. But then it's also the bit of the job I enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Yeah. If people were to Google Brigadier Joe Wilkinson they'd probably come across a BBC article. Um about you and your husband Alan which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

Can you just talk a little bit around that because I I know it's you cringe and you don't like talking about it but it is it's obvious a moment in history for the within the British Army so it was I I cringe because press the press stuff does I do find it tricky and I'll probably come to why um so yes I so I commanded was really proud and really lucky to command uh 154 Scottish Regiment the Royal logistic corps which is a a transport regiment headquartered in Dunfermline and squadrons across the central belt of of Scotland the most amazing soldiers had served in the unit before and to go back and command it was just brilliant amazing people and and many of them still serving in the regiment. Alan my husband took over for me in command in in that job and that was the first time that had happened in the British Army where a um I think it was the first time a a married couple had handed command one to the other and very definitely the woman to the man. Funnily when people mention it and I I see people all the time who's either saw the article or saw something about it go, oh yeah your husband handed his regiment to you didn't he they all assume it was the other way around and it's like no why why why is it presumed to be that way yeah but um that must be fun to tell them though actually I'm very wrong. Yeah it is fun and Alan's great like that because he um it's more questions because I'm I am more senior now Alan took took a break for a while after command um he's he's now a reservist as well and has a civilian job. But people often say to him oh what's it like to have a wife who's senior to you and nobody once asked me that when I was junior to him you know what it was like that my husband was senior to me. Never once did anybody mention it. But as soon as I um overtook Alan in rank it became an issue which is funny. And it's always nice to just pop that back. And Alan's the best advocate when that question is asked because he just goes so I don't get your point what do you mean you know what's the issue uh but I mean we get it but it's just a bit really and and at the time when all that stuff came out in you know it was on Facebook and there was some it never s ceases to amaze me what some people think is appropriate to put in Facebook and it was nothing it wasn't people who knew either of us or even people who were in the military but uh yeah I I do find it difficult some of the the public stuff that goes with it.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

Yeah I can imagine what was it like life you know as partners and husband and wife working in the army what was that actually like yeah we you you talk about taking a break and switching off that was tricky to do sometimes because um yeah you you just end up living it uh we we did both work in the same regiment once together uh uh in but in fact it was that time when I was um I'm managing the port uh that was bringing everything into Bosnia we weren't co-located uh which was good and we wouldn't have chosen even to be in that situation uh I found it I found it quite tricky and not not that I found it tricky to do we were the same rank but Alan was in a senior position he was a regimental ops officer I was a squadron ops officer it was other people's perceptions of it often you know there was often we comments you know you know I'd I'd phone up to speak to him in a work business and someone would say it's your wife on the phone like oh no it's not you know in this in this sense so it wouldn't be ideal working in the same unit I think it's it's tricky but you know we work together at home and manage it which we're very different we've got very different styles. I was going to ask around that because in terms of that leadership handover I remember you talking around it and you've maybe referred to a little bit today in terms of you've you you you almost felt like those motherly instincts of actually handing over the squadron what did that what would they have seen and felt different in terms of maybe you said there's leadership diff different leadership styles across the army as there quite rightly should be what are the biggest differentiators between yourself and Alan he's he's the the empathy bit which is a good and a bad with me uh you know I think that's the bigger it's not that Alan's not empathetic but he's much more process driven and I always admired that so that's my weakness I think we complement each other in that way of course for soldiers serving soldiers looking up to you they probably enjoy the empathetic warmth bit yeah so if I yeah Alan's got more edge definitely I need more edge and uh you know I I'd look back but yeah it's tricky because the other the other thing is when you leave a regiment when you leave command the the norm is is that you don't hang around you don't you don't show your face for a couple of years and you let the next commanding officer get on with it and do their thing and that's trickier for him when I'm his wife and so yeah it was it was it wasn't easy.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

It wasn't easy.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

And businesses particularly at larger scale whether I they're enterprise businesses they'll have an overarching culture but they'll naturally be subcultures in terms of how they different offices different divisions and things like that. What does that look like in terms of the army in terms of different squadrons or companies in terms of maybe the different subcultures within them depending on who they are who they're led by what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Oh it's it's a huge thing in the army is it a huge thing and and there's a constant debate about um the benefits versus the the the risks so all the different cap badges for instance uh all the you know even if I suppose the best example from my perspective is when I did go into that very first job uh my corps the Royal logistic corps was fairly new it had amalgamated and the the bits of the corps that that were still present or the the bits of the forming corps that were still present in my squadron my subunit were from the Royal Corps of Transport and the Royal Army Ordnance Corps so they're now all Royal Logistic Corps soldiers they all wear the same cat badge but they had come from one of the other two so culturally they had different sort of habits different just a different culture and and they were forming a new culture and the Stores troop um who I commanded at first were from the Royal Army Ordnance Corps and the other two troops were predominantly from the Royal Corps Transport and as soldiers did in those days there would be fights you know not like not ban fights but there was banter and there were there probably were a few fights in the block because it they had names for each other you know the the ordinance for the stackers and the truckies and the you know it was it was fun. But the minute you ended up at a regimental function so that was 11th squadron I was in very proud to be store strip commander 11th squadron and our troops would be squabbling against each other. As soon as it was a regimental function and it was another squadron that was the mirror image of our squadron it becomes squadron versus squadron. Yeah so my my Middle Eastern friends on the course I'm on at the minute described this as I fight against my brother I fight with my against my brothers but I fight with my brothers against my cousins. You know it's that sort of idea who who do you who's your lowest common denominator and what next and then it would be regiment against regiment and everybody's forgotten whether you're a truckie or a stacker because we're now fighting against the Army Air Corps you know so we're yeah so cat badge mentality and it it breeds competition which is a good thing. When that competition you know tribalism can be a good thing but you need to know when it is a good thing yeah and when it's not and I guess that's as a as a leader as a commander that's where you always have to keep this constant meat mediating eye you know rallying up your soldiers against something for good purposes but being able to restrain it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

What was the process like when you moved to different roles or leading different squadrons in terms of maybe you've analyzed it a little bit and observed for a little the influence that you then have on potentially shaping a culture and what culture would you want to shape within the the what you led I think the trickiest way times for that have been in the reserve not it's a very I was going to say it's a very different culture.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

There's still an overarching you know military service culture. But of course these people are part-time and come you know they're not living the military life 24 hours a day seven days a week in the regular world and certainly in my early days when people did all live together on a base the culture thing just happened the cut you know just the way things were done. In the reserves the people are motivated much more much differently and it's it's not as transactional in a way it's much more well why are why is he here? Why is she here? What are they looking for from this? What was so that was harder to create uh or harder to make a change to a culture because you would have different people there all the time and I I found that tricky uh but really rewarding when it worked yeah yeah and and finding the agents if you like that yeah the people who you got it and and really empowering them to bring others on.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

What have you had to really lean into the most in your own journey and development as a leader of whether it's development areas, blind spots that you've had to really have front of front in focus in terms of being able to make sure that you're getting better at that to get the best at the the people that you are or soldiers you are leading?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Oh I it's hard to know whether I've leaned into the right things enough. It's it's easy with hindsight isn't it but the negative is I think I I would be too drawn to the emotional bit of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

Yeah um I I might very quickly think oh that's just did you get told at all just sorry to to butt in there but in terms of did you get told at all when you're climbing the ranks that you're ever too emotionally involved in that way at all or was that no I don't um I don't think so I think I have been able I mean I don't know whether I'm being hard on myself probably I just know the quandary it puts in me.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Yeah I've been able to make the tough decisions but I don't find them easy I don't find it easy um and things stay with me you know I ruminate for years about things gosh if I'd just done something differently. Yeah and that I mean that in some ways that might sound great that I cared that much but it's it's not great when you need to focus and put something you know ahead in a different direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Yeah anything else stand out that maybe was a you need to focus on or wanted to work on um how did you find the actual the the typical standing up and leading others and giving orders did that come quite naturally to yourself or how did that kind of develop?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

You uh that is one that I mean Sandhurst because you the the the training you go through at Sandhurst where you're you're doing that yes you're doing it with your peers really but you're doing it when you're exhausted you're doing it when you're wet and you're muddy you're doing it when you haven't slept for three days so actually when you hit the real life commanding the standing up and and you know giving orders bit if we if you know if it is that that's what your soldiers expect of you actually you know it's not that wasn't or didn't feel tricky at the time it's harder when you're having to give bad news or it's harder when you're having to ask for something that you know is a you know maybe an emotional challenge um for soldiers if they're you know there were very busy periods where soldiers were going away six months out of every 18 months you know missing births of children you know those types of things I don't think that was ever the hardest thing it's harder now I'm an older lady sort of forget words and forget my train of thoughts and I worry more about that sort of thing now but it that was just that was part of the culture actually and actually most most even very junior soldiers that's something that gets trained in very early yeah is you know a lance corporal looks after typically four people and but they could easily be stepping up and or and or one of them with real specialist skills. I've seen lance corporals so let me think maybe 21 years old been in the army three or four years briefing audiences of 300 400 people because they are the specialist in a skill and that is you know overcoming any fear or or of of an audience or or of just giving your opinion is something that a lot is invested in our soldiers from the from the very earliest stages to make them able to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:47

There's obviously again from the outside looking in you see how difficult that transition can be from soldier to civilian and people making that really tough particularly if there's you know PTSD involved and and things there But what's what does the army do to try and equip and support people? I imagine it's changed dramatically now, people going into civilian life because they've still got you know very you know a good few decades ahead of them as a civilian. But what does that kind of transition look like? Because it seems from the outside looking in to obviously be really, really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

Yeah, and and it varies that there are a lot of there is a program, a career transition program. It's having a bespoke system is probably the more difficult thing because everybody is so different. Uh, you know, it's different in Scotland than it is in England. The the the employment market changes. Uh I think so. There's a lot there, but sometimes people, soldiers and officers don't access it because they don't think they need it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

Or they'll they'll go straight into a job because they've been offered one, but it might not be the one that they really want to be in in a year's time. And that's when they re-engage often with careers, organizations, and transition programs. One of the difficulties of the military and society now is there are so few people who have routine contact with the military or who have parents who were in service or or grandparents. And often they'll there is this no sh, you know, there are there is PTSD, there are people who've seen awful things. And and of course, there needs to be a safety net there and welfare organizations to support veterans who've been through the worst. But actually, most soldiers do not leave like that. Of course. Most of them are ready and able, but they just the good news stories don't make don't make the news. And and I sometimes it's really important that we lobby for support, but we also need to be mindful that there's a bit of a mad, bad, and sad narrative. Yeah. And and none of them are all of those, but a lot of people are very resilient, very able to make the transition.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:07

Yeah, for sure. And you see it now, a lot of them, whether they're whatever they go into, how equipped they are and how strong a person they are. And um I can only imagine what what kind of whether it's uh when you're coming through the ranks that are being you're at Sandhurst, what are the key traits and skills that you are picking up to really equip you with? You kind of talked about there, you're obviously going to get pushed to immense levels of probably stress and tiredness and then having to make decisions.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

What stands out from you from your time at Sandhurst that was maybe uh a stage or process that you went through that really equipped you to be confident and competent in that role when you I think it is that just getting it done no matter what, you know, the bad day stuff, and and this is what I see in my soldiers, and particularly my reserve soldiers, having spoken to many of their civilian employers, and they'd say, you wouldn't believe how much they stand out from their completely civilian peers. Um, for instance, in what a story was a delivery driver, one of my drivers from my regiment who had recently started working for a logistic company. And the manager who came to an event said to me, What was they they were sent off to deliver something, the address was wrong on the invoice for a start. Um they got to a place, it's any of any of the rest of my drivers would have just brought the brought the package back. And your driver found out who it was really for by speaking to five different people, phoning up and delivered the package, even though the address was wrong. Now, that sounds a bit a bit trivial, not trivial, a bit low level, but it's typical for me of the um the problem solving. I'm out to deliver this. Why would I turn around and go back if I can do a bit more and make it work? And and that person had been, you know, they'd been in operations. Sometimes obstacles get in your way and you've got to find a way around it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

And just knowing that, you know, even when the chips are really down and times are tough and it's bucketing with rain and you're carrying a heavy pack, tomorrow will come and you'll get through. You know, you'll get through, and preferably you'll get through in good order, having delivered the task, the parcel, you know, the the rounds down the range, whatever, you know, whatever the metaphor needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

Does that does a moment stand out for yourself or whether it's a role or yeah, specific moment in time that's made you most proud as a as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:49

Um I'm sure many officers would say command and commanding that regiment 154, particularly if I think back to the the regiments, or about half the regiment went on an exercise to America when I was in command, uh and they were deploying as a squadron so below regimental level, and I was out there to view the exercise, and I was just so proud of them. Honestly, the the um my subunit commander who was out there at the time, Ray Watt, Major Ray Watt, I remember him meeting me and taking me to see the soldiers, and honestly, I was just burned burnt with pride because but Ray was an easy person to have put there because he was just a superstar and happy soldiers, they impressed the American colleagues who they were integrated with so much. And and I just thought, gosh, if if people at home could only see what these you know part-time soldiers who are at work in numerous jobs across Scotland, Monday to Friday, if they could see the impression that they're making and the effect that they're having on another army, on an exercise, on just their attitude and their positivity was unbelievable. And and there's nothing like that just to make you sort of feel proud.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:13

It's probably that, it probably refers back to the influence you've had on them in terms of that your definition of great leadership and you being able to see that in in practice. Um but for you now, if you if you were a 15-16-year-old right now and seeing what's going on in the world and in the army, how do you think you'd be feeling sitting watching instead of watching what you're watching the TV back then, how do you think you'd feel in terms of that that push or pull towards the army?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

I think actually I was, despite growing up in that that troubled area, in many ways that left me very naive because Northern Ireland had its own troubles and we didn't look that far outside. You know, the Cold War, I you know, I lived through a lot of it and didn't really feel like I was waiting for a nuclear bomb to go off. You know, it wasn't the closest threat. Nowadays, I think that the narrative is changing in the UK and elsewhere. I think people are starting to be aware that if you don't have security, you don't have stability. And if you don't have stability, then your economy. A lot of the course I'm doing this year is about those things, not not defense in itself. But security is the first thing that a population needs. And you know, recent events were you know, we're here in you know April now um 2026. You can see how the impact of uh you know oil on stability across the world and the economy, you know, what it does to the economy. And it's just a circle of of how you know populism is being fed by a lack of those other factors. Uh I just hope that the 15 and 16-year-olds watching it aren't despairing. I think they've got to realize that the world the world needs to have good young leaders in the future and they need to play their part. There was such a move towards, you know, after the Cold War and until relatively recent times, towards greater stability and young people being able to influence to to try to build a a better, more more ethical world. And ideally, you know, we can be really idealistic, but the bottom line is if we don't have security, we can't be idealistic about everything else.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

So yeah, it's it's a and I think it it's an interesting point that you raise in terms of, and I guess it's only relative to where you're at in moment in time, but yeah, it's you realise more than ever now in terms of running a business, or you turn on the news, you see the economy, the price of fuel, uh young family, the rest of it, it's just how quickly just it can change daily at the moment, and it isn't those it's the threats from not close by, it's a long way away, and how quickly it can swing. So um, yeah, never before have we wanted and needed great leadership, which is the opposite of what most of us are seeing.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

But and the amplification of the effect of per leadership um of toxicity, of popul, I don't want to be political, but of of the very short-termist views, um you know, of not thinking through the impact and just not really showing care for humanity and society. You know, I I people think that you know there's that maybe that defence is the hard edge, but of course, defense is only there for when everything else has failed. And for the most part, in defense, we want we want to promote stability and security, and so it doesn't mean you know, people working in defense, whether they're in uniform or whether they're in industry or whether they're in civil service, you know, the the goal is to avoid war and not to wage it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

Yeah, it's a fascinating time um for sure. Um few quick fire questions to finish with um Jill. It's been so insightful, and I think um a lot of people have hopefully taken plenty away from both learning things around the army, but there's so much that can be taken into business, education, sport, and otherwise. So um I really appreciate it. Um we have started the uh Leaders Unlocked Library. Um, a lot of people read, they listen to books, whether it's podcasts and things that maybe influence and shape their own behavior. Um, yeah, there's a few classics in there that I may or may not have read. Um but is there anything is there a book that stands out for yourself that's you'd recommend to others that's really supported you with whether it's leadership or or otherwise?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:00

Yeah, I've noticed that I'm recommending one book over and over to people actually. And it was one that one of the other ladies who works for Canvas recommended to me. Uh, and it's called Gravitas by Caroline Goider. Uh it's uh I recommend it a lot to young women who I've been mentoring, and it's not specifically for women, but I think uh it's something's always concerned me about being a wee Northern Irish woman who works in logistics in a logistics in a and a part-timer at that in an organization that is culturally very different, uh and that that maybe I didn't have gravitas and it doesn't uh if you're commanding those 30 soldiers or 75 soldiers or 100 soldiers who know you well, I think you can you can lead them without having any you don't need to think about gravitas. Yeah, you've got authenticity. But in the world I'm working in now, and many other women are working in, you sometimes have to just make an immediate impact. Uh you don't have the time to build up the trust and the the authenticity and people knowing the credibility and the competence that you've got, you really need to have gravitas from day one. And that book is such an easy read about it's mostly about communication and being able to uh have imp improve impact from the start. So that's one that I've been recommending to lots of people.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:35

It's a great recommendation, thank you. Uh are great leaders born or developed?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

Uh developed. I think we've got traits that help. I've used it as a hand of cards sometimes. If if your personality traits are your hand of cards, you won't win with that same hand of cards in every context. So it's how you play them.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:55

Yeah, really good. I like that. Um if you could go for a coffee with one leader and pick their brains for a couple of hours, who would it be and what would you want to ask them?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:03

Do you know? I thought about this because I've been listening to some of your other podcasts, and that's so hard. But uh Kamala Harris, I I just would be fascinated, partly to hear her reflections now on both her time as vice president, but what more she would reflect on that could have been done to influence the world differently.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:26

Yeah. That'd be an interesting. I mean, yeah, there'll be a lot of good things to come out of that, and interesting for sure. Um, what's your most important non-negotiable as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:38

I think I was gonna say trust, but trust comes from honesty. I think those uh yeah, if we put those two together if I'm allowed to do that, yeah, for sure. If you don't have that, if you don't have that, then you'll never reach high performance, in my view. You've got an it's important to delegation and you have to be able to delegate people and trust them. Doesn't mean you they're always not gonna make mistakes, but you've got to it's gotta be the basis.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:00

What's one word that defines your leadership style?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:05

Um I'll say energetic, although I don't always feel it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:11

Yeah. Great. I agree from what from what from what I've seen.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:16

That's because I've had two coffees.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

Um when you're leading a team, which behaviour are you least tolerant of?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:25

I was gonna say individualism, but I suppose selfishness.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:28

Um if it's a team, it's a team.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:31

So people looking for individual credit. Um I I recognize that in a in a hierarchical organization, you see it, but the best performance, you know, I would say allow people above you to see your performance without you having to go and display it to them as in deliberately.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:49

Yeah, yeah. I think it's it's um for that, it's almost like you should be able to say to them, particularly some in something like the army, if you're seeing selfishness, it's like you're in the wrong place. Yeah, like you couldn't be in more than the wrong place. Um what's the most underrated leadership quality in your eyes? Patience.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:08

And I'm guilty, but uh you know, I'm not always patient enough. But again, as as you go further upward, decisions are probably less immediate, uh, but also we need to wait longer for results sometimes. I think we're in a constant cycle of needing to see impact straight away, and that's really tricky. And uh often we uh we should adjust if things aren't going well, but patience to make the well, make a decision when it's needed, but if it doesn't need to be made now, then maybe we need to take time and and be more considerate before we do fast changes of direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:47

Yeah. Right. What three words would your teammates, colleagues, soldiers use to describe Joe Wilkinson?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:54

Yeah, I've been the victim of many three at least 180s or 360s. And of course, people, even though it's supposed to be anonymous, you know, uh they do say that I'm caring and empowering. So I I'm really proud that people say that because that's what I I would like them to say. Um three three things.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:17

What did I think? Did I write some down? Committed.

unknown 1:22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:25

Committed. I would definitely see that. Sure. I think it's um anything else?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:34

Thoughtful was the other word I was thinking about as she sits for a moment thinking. Yeah. Uh I like to think I'm getting more thoughtful and trying to be less instinctive. Yeah. I think that comes anyway as you move through um roles.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

Become more wise. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:52

Wise leadership. Yeah. Trying to become more wise.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:56

So there's something in there in terms of the connection between thoughtfulness, patience. Um, to your point, the everybody right now, whether it's social media clicks or business results, they want uh to do something today and see the results tomorrow. And I think people just realizing now that you're not that's just that short-termism. You've talked about what's going on right now, and you know, globally, there's just almost everything that's happening right now is almost for short-term gain and credit, if you like, rather than what is the long-term sustainable impact of this. So um there's a lot can be taken away from that. Who are the two biggest people that have had sorry, who are the two people that have had the biggest influence on you as a leader and as a person?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:42

Again, thought about this because I've been listening to your other podcasts. And uh a lady called Hilary McCloy, who was my P teacher at school, and actually I've got many of those who worked, who have played, you know, played hockey. And uh she I remember Hilary wrote a reference for me to do what was then called Operation Rally, Rally International, and I saw it. And I I do think that was a time a really uh pivotal thing because she saw things in me that I, you know, I wasn't reflective, I was just instinctive. I was the hockey club car hockey team captain, but the confidence she had to recommend me and give me a reference for something was was was pivotal because I had huge respect for her. Would she ever know how grateful you are? Um I I I hope so. I did, I I did tell her I saw her, and it's a long time since I've seen her. And I'm never I keep thinking, next time I'm back in Derry, I'm gonna call in and see her. But I did tell someone else, um, a friend of hers that once that you know how important she was. And then actually, I have to I have to say, and not romantic, but Alan, my husband, he's always had such faith in me, even when I didn't, and partly because our styles are so different. Uh, he, you know, he saw the things that I could do that he couldn't do, and and vice versa. But he has um really encouraged me when I when I've not felt sometimes that I could go for things.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:12

Best team environment you've you've been a part of, and why?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

Probably go back to that uh Balkans job um because it was operational, it was multidisciplined, expertise sat at a really low, rank-wise sat at a really low level, and I've never worked with such a well-oiled team, you know, as the port operators uh uh from 17 Port Maritime Regiment. We were a real composite team that came together, and it's a bit like a rugby team. Everybody had a different role, but but on the pitch. So that was that was fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:47

Great job to do. Um, if you could have a five-minute conversation with that 15-year-old Jill, what would you say to her?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:54

I'd just tell her because that that was probably the toughest time when I was about 15, actually. I think I'd say um nothing lasts forever. The you know, good days, good times, bad times, you know, life is peaks and flows. And I you know, I'm only realizing this now. I was gonna say also not to be scared of failure and to just go for it. But I remember Hillary McCloy more or less telling me something like that, where she said, Um, do you hold back so that if you don't make it, it doesn't, it's as if you weren't really going for it anyway, type of thing. I think she saw something in me that was perhaps a fail of failure, fear of failure. And uh yeah, go for it. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't matter. But to to give, you know, to really set a goal. I wasn't particularly good at setting myself goals.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:45

I was quite happy to just go with the flow.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:47

Right. Last question. What's the best piece of advice you've been given that you can pass on to our audience?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:53

That this is something again, I still probably don't practice as much as I would preach, but that delegation is is a gift and not a burden that you can give people. You know, that we I think we hold back from delegating to busy people because we don't want to lo overload people. But actually it's the way of it's the way of allowing them to step up and for them to grow. And I think it's the in in any leadership work I've done across the many sectors that Canis works with and and in my other work, it's the thing people struggle with most is delegation because they fear they they fear that it looks like they're being lazy. And so I try to reframe it as a gift. And someone someone else taught me that. Yeah. So you're delegating something, it's a gift that you're giving someone, it's an opportunity for them to shine.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:43

For sure. And that's so easy for people to just think that they need to do it all, but you won't become a good leader, and you certainly won't develop good leaders unless you're giving them that opportunity to step up. Joe Wilkinson, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you.