Teddy Lee | Building Maki & Ramen, Scaling Fast & The Reality of Growth | EP 8

This week on Leaders Unlocked, Lewis interviews Teddy Lee, Founder & CEO of Maki & Ramen.

From washing dishes at 13 to building a fast-scaling global restaurant group, Teddy’s journey is built on resilience, relentless work ethic and an obsession with getting better.

In this episode,  Lewis & Teddy explore:

🔵 Moving to Scotland with nothing lined up and starting from scratch
🔵 Teaching himself how to make ramen on YouTube and travelling to Japan to master the craft
🔵 The mindset behind continuous improvement (Kaizen) and the power of small, consistent gains

🔵 The reality of scaling and why growth often exposes more problems than it solves
🔵 Why letting go as a founder is one of the hardest but most important steps in scaling
🔵 The vision for Maki & Ramen and why Teddy believes there is no limit to what it can become

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Just make the product, put it on the door, start selling it. I already make like any mistake, but I already start selling it. So what's the point? Why don't you just execute it first and then learn from your mistake and continue proven? It looks like a pizza doll. When you stretch it, you make it bigger and then you start to see a lot of hole in there. And now you cannot put any more toast in there because it's leak. I'm worried about the minus 1% that you don't feel it, but it's fitted into a size that by the time you realize that it's too late. If I go into the restaurant, the toilet is not clean. Now I'm thinking about not just to hey can you clean the toilet? That's only solved one time problem. When you go to the restaurant, it's actually the end result of what the system has been built.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Teddy Lee, thank you very much for joining me today. Thank you for having me. You're uh you're a busy guy. I appreciate that. You're flying here, there, and everywhere for your um your ramen empire. Um, but I'm really grateful you're sitting down with me today. Myself and my team were recently at the a business awards that you did the keynote at telling everybody around your story and your journey and the the journey and the this the strong growth story of uh Mackie and Raman. And I thought that's a guy I'd love to pick the brains of. So uh I'm looking forward to today's conversation. But how are things just generally at the moment? Busy? Very good.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Um busy, I think it's busy running around and you know, all the new opening, and then like not all opening is smooth. Uh either it's busy, so then you have a lot of operational issues. If it's not busy, then we have a marketing issue. So on keep keep me keep me alive, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

There's uh there's always something to keep you busy, right? Yes. That's for sure. Um I think a lot of people listening or watching may have heard of Mackie and Raman, and if they've not yet, they certainly will now, and they'll probably see one on their streets soon. Um and we'll talk a little bit around that, you as a chef, you as a CEO and founder. Um, but I'd love to pick your brains a little bit around Teddy Lee before the chef and a bit about growing up and almost those formative years that really led to the person you are now and that passion for food and cuisine, and if there was anything from that business perspective as well, but what were those early years like from my for you? Hmm. Oh, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Um so early life, so I wasn't like um I wasn't like an A student, so I'm more like a D student. Um always this kind of school, it doesn't like get into our brain, so I couldn't really focus on the school itself. And because of that, um I have to pick a subject early. And normally when you don't go to school, so you pick something like uh hospitality, kitchen, hotel management. Um so I pick that, but also my parents is also like owning a restaurant before, so it's kind of like nationally I will just uh naturally I would just go there. Um so starting working as a chef, uh was like kind of a really hard work, but I really actually I really enjoyed that. The time goes really fast, um, you know, the people, the environment, you know, I learned new things, um, I got free food. Um so I really, really enjoyed that. So I didn't like pick that really. It was more like it was just naturally just like come. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

And what was the the restaurant and where was that that your that your parents ran? Um it was in Israel. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah. Um Haifa, Tel Aviv. Um when I stopped working, I was working with my mom restaurant. Yeah. Uh as a cafe, uh, some sushi, some kind of like Italian spaghetti and some jabetta with sandwiches and stuff like that. And that was the first uh approach pretty much for the restaurant. Yeah. And at the same time, I was studying um hotel management in school when I was 15, 16.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

When was the f how old were you when you stepped inside your first restaurant kitchen?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I think seven s 17 was the proper step. Yeah. Yeah. I did it when I was 13, but like as a wash dishes, but it wasn't like kitchen cutting and cooking and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

And back then when you were whether between those years of 13 to 17 and your parents owned a restaurant, did you did you see that as a potential future and you saw them enjoying their work and you thought, I could see yourself doing that, hence the decision to, I think you went into the food management side. What was that like in terms of was there ever any other options on the table for you in terms of your mind of I could, you know, go and be a footballer or run a business or whatever that may be? Or did you get was it always almost food and restaurants?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

As I think about it, it was only that that's the only thing I wanted to do. Um, to one day open a restaurant, but it was also like not a lot of choice for me to like, there you go, you know. So it's like the you know, the horse that they cover their their ear, their their eye, yeah. So the blinkers. So all I see was a restaurant. I didn't see myself like walking in office, anything to do with computer or high-tech. You know, there wasn't any AI at that time, so it was like no marketing or something like that. It was only restaurant. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Amazing. And um was you kind of you've talked about it a lot, and I know a lot of people that work in hospitality and how long those hours can be, and how many days a year you're having to be in there and working. What was that like in terms of your childhood years and seeing your parents work? What must have been crazy hours, which that was much must seem like the norm. Um yes, but that must have been very obvious how busy they were and how what the hospitality um what hospitality demands of you from a work perspective?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Like weekends, uh, Christmas, all type of holiday, they will be extremely busy, so they work. Um I don't really get to see them because I, you know, if I go to school, then I finish school, they are at work. Um when I go to school, they are sleeping, and when they finish work, uh I probably uh went to bed as well. So we don't see each other, especially not even on the weekend, because the weekend is the one that they are the busiest, so they need to be at work. Um, I start to connect with them mainly from uh when I start work. So I find myself like actually get to know them better by actually going on a weekend to work with them. Yeah. Was that hard? Uh that time, no, it was very fun actually.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

It was very fun. And do you have siblings? Like I have uh one brother and one sister. And were they the same in terms of being in the restaurant?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

And they are like nine years uh younger than me, and another young uh nine years younger than me. So my sister is like 18, 19 years old, younger than like younger gap. Yeah. So they don't see that they they are very different. They are very, very different. My brother is kind of like smart, he graduated accountant, he didn't do anything with it, but he's more like um another kind of personality. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

And so when you're you're at school and you kind of said yourself more of a D student rather than an A student, was that frustrating for you, or did you have a little bit of comfort knowing what you were destined to do in the food and restaurant world? How was that?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

No, I not not really, but there wasn't really people pushing me, saying, like, you know, all these Asian parents, like you have to get A, you have to get A. There wasn't really like that. My mom and my dad more like freestyle, like, okay, if you cannot do this, do something else. I will support you so they will, you know, give you like a uh, you know, extra tutoring, um, like extra curriculum to help you. But other than that, like there wasn't really like a push look, you have to get that. But even they push, it's it's not gonna help.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Um so what does the next chapter look like in your life after you start to work in the restaurant? Uh and then beyond that, what what what happens next in your trajectory? Um so I work in a restaurant.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

I came to UK uh under walking visa. Okay. Uh again, restaurant for six years. And that's like To Edinburgh? Edinburgh, yes. Yeah. So this is where I started actually. Yeah, like six years kind of like staying in Edinburgh, working in Vanessa, come back. Um, and then after the period of the walking visa, then I can now go and work somewhere else. Yeah. Um I open uh a small restaurant in Stark, it's called uh Stark Pavilion. It is in Eyes of Arran, so it's West uh Glasgow. Eyes of Aron for five months because it's like uh because it's Ireland, so when um in the summer they open, yeah, when in the winter they actually close. So I have this opportunity to own my own restaurant for five months. And how does that come around like that in terms of how does that opportunity even come out? So I'm always looking for uh for it you know to open my own restaurant. And I even do like business proposal on my free time after working six days, that's my spare time, that's my hobby. Um and then uh I look at I think it's it it was a newspaper that they that he advertised that there is like phase. What I'm looking for at that time was opening a restaurant um and doing my own thing, but not but I didn't have much money there. So to start a budget there, it was like 3,000 pounds, and that's it. There wasn't need like solicitors, uh, agent fee, uh deposit, pay this, pay that in order for you to start it. And I didn't do any renovation as well because it was a restaurant. I didn't even change the logo. It was called Stack Pavilion. I don't even know what Stack Pavilion really means. Um so I started open it and I I I do what I could at. It wasn't Japanese, it was more like Western food, so a steak, fish. And the client there is they see me like, do you do chicken chow men? Do you do like kabi rice? So I was like, you know what? Let's put it in the menu as well. So I turned it into like a Chinese restaurant, but then stock pavilion. Yes. Um yeah. Um, but all of that is because I just see that, oh, this is the demand. Like this is what they want me to make. So I make. It's not like for me, it's more like the money customer, and then as long as you pay me the bill is uh I'm happy with that.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

So yeah, brilliant. What was taking a step back? Why Edinburgh? Why Scotland? What what was your calling to come over here? Again, that's no choice.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Um, it was just like um so back in Israel, I didn't get my identity. So my so I was like illegal immigrant though. Okay. And um I got caught like basically, like you cannot work here because you don't have the right visa. So what age was that? Was that um I was 21, 22 when I was uh when I left. Right, okay. Yeah. But I speak the language. Yeah. I read, I write, I know a lot of people there. Um and then they kind of like they left me in the to uh like a gray area because I wasn't really illegal, but you know, so they let me stay, but don't let me work. Okay? Yeah. Um, but they let me study as well. Yeah. Anyway, so they end up like uh so I end up like I have to find another job. And apparently my as one of the person, um, one of the guys who went to um Israel met my dad, and then he went to Scotland, and then he went crazy with the restaurant. He got nine restaurants called Jimmy Chones. Oh yeah, yeah. Jimmy Chong, you know, Jimmy Chong, yeah. Buffet, right? Nine or ten restaurants start in Aberdeen, go back, uh uh go down, keep on opening. He needs more stuff. And he contacted my mom, my mom contacted me. There you go, that's your opportunity. Yeah, just go somewhere else. And since I so uh uh so I'm born in Israel. So since zero to twenty-two, I didn't re uh go out of Israel. I didn't take any ah sorry. No, I did actually, sorry. I did went back to Hong Kong. But when I was like in uh in like 17 to 22, I didn't go out anywhere. Like, you know, a lot of the young people going to Thailand, uh, Spain, Ibiza. Of course. I didn't do any of this. And this is the first time I'm kind of like going out to the UK.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

So did you know that would be an issue or not until like that came around that day you couldn't get a job because of your visa? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

I didn't know it was an issue, uh, but I didn't really have a passport or anything. But I wasn't thinking about all this, like I was nine. Yeah, you're naive. You know, you just give me a job, like give me a job as long as you pay me money, you pay me money. And I have a bank statement, uh the bank account as well, so you can transfer the money as well. Yeah. So it wasn't like cash. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Um what was that like that moment in time where you kind of found that out? Like talk me through that in terms of just the emotions and the moment and how that might have felt for yourself and your the family.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

The the the first time that I really approached that, that I realized that I cannot work, it's I came, I I took a bus, it's about one hour away from my home, and I turned up to the work at eight o'clock in the morning. I stopped working for two hours, and then the manager pulled me to the office, and then he told me this. And this is when I'm like, so they didn't pay me, but I, you know, make all this effort and then tell me, like, you cannot work here. And this is how I felt like, whoa. Yeah, like no. But then, okay, so I forgot about this and I continue um uh the working, and there are a couple of times that immigration comes over in the front door, and then the owner tells me going to the back door. Well, so this is when I'm feeling like I'm kind of unwanted. Yeah. Because it's not more like stressful, it should be stressful. Yeah, because I'm born there, I I I I can I can swear in Hebrew, I can just you know. Um, so yeah, so this is how I felt at that time that it was unwanted, and I don't see the future anymore. Yeah, because I was head chef in age of 20 uh in a French restaurant. Um I grew up very fast in my career, I was earning quite uh a good lump sum compared to all the 20 or all my classmates. Um yeah, but that's it, done.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

Yeah. So how long how what was the going from that decision and the realization of you can't work in Israel? How short was that time frame of hearing that to then action and you know coming to Edinburgh?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

So so honestly, if there is no uh job offer, because I wasn't really actively looking for that, it has just come from the external. Um I probably would stay there until whenever they actually need to kick me out. Yeah. Because, you know, the maximum they can kick me out is kick me back to Hong Kong. Yeah. Now I'm not familiar with that place. You know, I'm from Hong Kong, but I'm not familiar with it because I've never really been there or never really lived there, you know. Um, but yeah, it's just natural things just put me around.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

On reflection now and what you've built and how successful you've been, do you reflect on that moment in time as almost a lighting lighting a fire underneath you in terms of coming over here and building something that's gonna really prove it?

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Opening a restaurant always is my thing. Yeah, um, I always wanted that. Um the the lighting fire fire actually, when I come over here, it actually shut me down because six years working in the same company, that's all you do. Yeah, like uh there was like a well they fixed me eye accommodation, and obviously you get lower pay for that. And then at that time there wasn't like um at a tips distribution, uh bonuses and stuff like that, you know. And the accommodation was like for people in a room, this kind of accommodation. And you know, kitchen, we all smoke. The windows were shut because it's cold. So this is like, but I live with this environment for like one and a half year, I get out from it, oh one year, one year and a half year. And I get out from it, it's it's just like for me, I kind of like get used to it. Because I had a life in Israel, I have my own bed. And then when you enter to like a different environment, I think that I need to lower my ex expectation or lower my standard to in order for me to like just adapt with the with the environment. Now, don't get me wrong, it was actually really fun. Yeah. Like it wasn't like, yes, okay, um, maybe um uh work-life balance wasn't there, but I didn't know the word work-life balance. It's a new thing that they made up. Um so it was six days, ten hours a day, sometimes twelve, and all I do is work and sleep and continue to work. Um I study English at that time as well, so I wake up particularly early in the morning until when all the chefs are still sleeping, 9 o'clock to 12. That's my like English second language study, and yeah. Um for like three years or so. Um, yeah. Uh but it was fun because I think that we all like kitchen, we all like having these kind of like jokes. Um nowadays we cannot even say that because it's like racist joke or whatever, it you know, this kind of thing. Um But we're having like a a very good fun. I didn't feel like it was like disadvantaged or like depressed or like why am I living in this kind of environment? I actually really enjoy that.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Like the whole the whole process of that.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah. Well, it's incredible. Uh what a great story. And just even those, you can only imagine again from those moments of when you find yourself in Edinburgh. What what was even that connection back home then? Like that must have been really tough for your parents. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Um, so my mum were um um uh in in Edinburgh first. Okay. And then me and my dad is in Hong Kong, they separated. Um no, I think they are okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah, they're okay with that. Yeah. You can help me with my pronunciation, but I want to talk to you about icky guy. Icky guy, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

The reason for being do you want to give us a better definition of so it's um so it's um there is another um a word of it, is this the you know, the hatch up concept. So let's go back to the to the ikie guy. It's basically it's like you do what you love. So am I doing what I love? I love cooking, so I'm doing it. Um do you get paid for that? And I uh and I do pay for that, not a lot, but I get paid for it. And so the whole ikigai thing is more like about balance of like what you love and what is passionate, uh, what is the world need. So this is ikigai in implementing to business what the world needs. Um if you are a chef, what's the world need? You know, what do you are you're feeding customer of or like a good food? Um yeah, it's more like a balance that I'm thinking of like every time when I do something, I'm just as I try to align myself using Ikigai.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah, because that you know that you talked about that at the event, and I'm just wondering at this stage in those early years coming to Edinburgh, yeah, where are you on that on that zen? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Uh I I didn't know about Ikigai right time.

unknown 20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

I didn't read the book, I didn't, I didn't hear I never heard of Ikigai at the time. It was like it was just like, okay, yeah, go with the flow. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

So you obviously those first few years in Edinburgh, how long is that before you is it after the six years you then go and open the restaurant in Glasgow?

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, I was um I worked, uh yeah. So it's like after six years I was looking for a restaurant. Meanwhile, I was working as like um chef de partir. Yep. Um, so I'll I will have to travel different places to do a one-night shift there, one night shifter.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

And are you just saving real saving money relentlessly? I'm conscious of how expensive it is to open a restaurant and yes, it's dangerous to say it flippantly in terms of you open the you wanted to open a restaurant, but you must be so disciplined in terms of the hours you're working and just saving it to make that a possibility.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yes, uh so that's the the the best thing coming out of it uh is for working six days and not even have time to spend your money. Yeah. You're you're literally just making your net. And you're saving it all. Okay. Maybe buying a packet of cigarettes. That's good. Even coffee we don't buy, we just drink from the from the restaurant, right? Like this, the next coffee. Yeah, so saving money was a thing for me. And did you know, did you have a number in your mind of what you need to get to make this a possibility? It wasn't uh because my first um um Isaaron restaurant was about 3,000 pounds. Yeah. That was the budget. That's it. The first market cost 80,000, 80,000. But I didn't know that until I it wasn't too much of a planning, it's just like, hey, how much is that? This is how much I have. Um at that time I had uh deposit uh of my uh house. So my my eldest daughter now is 11 years old, Maki Ramin is 11 years old. So I just actually started a family. And and yeah. Great.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

So what's the that period between the the Chinese restaurant in Glasgow to Maki and Raman? What's that what does that look like in terms of that that timeline and story between uh okay?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

So um in between them there was uh a Malaysian restaurant called Kampong Ali. So after Jimmy Choles was Kampong Ali, and then uh um Eyes of Aaron, and then a little bit of Kampong Ali, Chef de Parties, and then Maki Raman.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Right. Yeah. And talk to me around that, the inception of Maki and Raman, uh, and that idea and you the realization of okay, I can make something here that I believe in and that can be better. You talked a little bit around the that that story from going idea to decision to action, and you're gonna open that restaurant.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

So it's it was always wanted to open a restaurant, it wasn't defined what restaurant. So it wasn't like I always wanted to own something that I would create the dishes from. Uh at the beginning, it was more like uh ramen and sushi. So we called it something like ramen and sushi or sushi and ramin, and then we turned it into like a bit more like uh maki and then ramen itself. Um I didn't know how to make ramen when I opened Maki Ramen. Like not the proper ramen. Um and then I searched on YouTube uh and I make, and then still customer wasn't too happy. Everything to do with that is the turnaround of three weeks. Every week I'm kind of improving it. Until there is a master chef from Japan. Uh, she is uh called her name is Misaya Hundai. At that time she was 72. Um uh it was a well it was a filmmaker's um they uh they want to showcase what ramen they have outside Japan. And they came to Edinburgh and they've contacted me and they're choosing like restaurant, and I was like, hey, I do everything for your show. Okay. So what they trying to do is finding uh the really bad ramen, and then the Misaya Hundai, which is the master chef, came over and they're changing it. It's like more like a golden ramzidos kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, without the shouting. Um and then um uh so we show them the ramen, we have to make some ramen that is very weird, which is we come up with like a breakfast ramen, so Scottish breakfast ramen, so black pudding. Yeah. And then we have to like put a shot of whiskey on the ramen to like make it wool. And then she came out and then she uh she she turned up uh as like a normal customer and then become like the master chef. And she and you show me uh, and then this is where I'm first time approaching a proper wheel ramen. It's called a burn soy ramen. Um we had it in the menu, uh, we take it off because there's so much hassle to do that, which is like the they put a lot of oil on the surface and then they just torture it really hard until the oil is like pumping hot. So that's called a burned soy ramen. Okay. Uh it was strong, it was good, but then it was also too oily as well. So I think that the customer here didn't like that. It was literally like a flow of oil that you can see floating on your ramen. Um, but that's a thing though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Yeah. And I'm conscious that you you talk a little bit right now. I've seen you talk about it before in terms of being self self-taught in terms of going on YouTube and learning how to make ramen and things. Yeah. And then there was obviously that moment in time that you took yourself to to Tokyo. Yes. Um talk us through a little bit around that as well, just to I guess become a master of the art. Um, still not.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Um, so this is so this is the first time how I learned ramen, and then the ramen went well, or the ramen went good. People are starting to eat the proper ramen now, and the and they're busy uh and the business go well. I opened a second one, and this is when a customer handed me, handed over me uh DVD. It was DVD at the time. Um, it's called Jiro the Dream of Sushi. Have you heard about that? It's a documentary about um old 70 odds person. He uh he has a restaurant six seated underneath a subway, and he's doing something called omakase. It's like a fine dine. And that document shows me that sushi can be in a different level. Two weeks later, I was like, wife, let's pack up a bag. I have uh my little one with me, and then I and then we stayed there for two months. Well, I closed one of the restaurants because the second market opened, and then I close it, and then I just put like a big sign. I was like, hey, I'm traveling to Japan, I'm going to learn some new sushi. This is how the restaurant will be looks like in the future. And meanwhile, they closed for renovation, and I just went to Japan for two months. Uh night to five, five days, just sushi. Like wash rice, washcloth, cutting fish, everything from scratch. And this is when I'm like, whoa, this is eyes opening.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

And what from uh did was that a real realization then? You kind of said your eyes opening there around what you can come back to Edinburgh and create. And you use the word proper a lot, and I see that a lot in terms of proper ramen. Talk to us a little bit around that and the excitement of what you're gonna come back to Scotland and Japan with.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Uh proper sushi, popper ramen, uh popper ramen, before ramen, everyone knows, like back 11 years old, um no, 11 years ago, all the ramen in in Edinburgh, I would say, because I'm not I know the market, but whoever put ramen in there, the soup, it's water, MSG, what, and and soy sauce. That was like common. Um, and then now you're actually taking the real uh bone to cook it for a long time. There's a uh there's a method, there's a way to do that properly to get into the flavor that you actually want similar to Japan. And the same as the eye opening of like sushi, I can see now a sushi shape within 10-15 seconds. I just need to ask him to make a sushi and I know where the level of sushi he's in. So there are like this tiny 1% better improvement that every single step I see that 1%. If it's not there, this is mean for me is not it's not the proper sushi, basically.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

What was the maybe light switch moment of your aspirations were to start a restaurant, own a restaurant, you weren't too fussed around what that restaurant would be. Maki Raman starts you know becoming a success, you go to Tokyo. Is that a real moment of you realizing you're all in on this and you're gonna make a success in this? And what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Um going to Tokyo is only improving the product. The product improved, then word of mouth. But word of mouth marketing, it's very, it's very slow. Very, very slow. And but no one talks about like second year I went and then I make a good food, and then people start coming in and fill up the restaurant. But no one really talks about, no one really knows that I was in Japan to make that food. Yeah. They just eat the food and then they say, Wow, that's good. They just don't know why. But but if I do have a marketing at the time, I would just spread that word. Like this is like a like a good marketing story for that. But up until like six, seven years, that story came out. So it wasn't there, but it it was more like word of mouth. What was the question?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Lightball moment? Yeah, of just really realizing it was going to be Maki and ramen and it was going to be specializing in that cuisine. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

So it was always I always wanted uh the reason I picked um uh two categories of the Maki and Ramen. Um in Japan, you only pick one. So you cannot be making rami. You're either making or you're either ramen. Yeah. Like if you open a shop. Um if you do both, it's it's just weird for them. Uh, but here is like isakaya style. Maki is sushi. Maki is sushi, yeah. And and isaka style is back in the day, a lot of people just have wudong, have like everything, as long as it's Japanese. You know. And you can see like from uh Chinese restaurant as well. The Chinese restaurant, what they do, they they just um put 300 items in there. Okay, and by the way, probably none of them actually have in China. Yeah, you know. And then now you have the proper Chinese restaurant that you can actually see Chinese people coming in. Um so this is what I think is the city itself had metropolitan to like understand that there is more food available. Um, shrinking the menu to only two main items that was very smart. Um, I think that uh that would bring me to a focus rather than like having everything but not doing it so well, but I was focusing in these two. Ramin taking a lot of space, a lot of time to make as well. So all the eight-hour cooking broth and all the bone and everything and storage and so there is no not really much much space or time to deal with other things that you're uh specific uh or specialized good at.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

And yourself at those early stages, when it's one or two restaurants, what's the role you're playing? Are you just being head chef and in the operations and the technical side of things, or are you also what's that balance? And we talk a lot around working in the business and working on the business. Yeah. Around in the businesses, being the technical and the day-to-day, but also working on the business in terms of what's your strategy, where you try to take this, the vision and the mission. Yes. What does that look like in that balance from you as being a founder, but also I guess at that stage and a head chef as well?

SPEAKER_01 33:33

So wearing all this hat, um, I was on the business until year six. So Mackie number six. Okay. So six restaurants, I was still on the business. Um, only seven I started to like feeling that whoa, we just opened a restaurant, but I didn't I wasn't in the kitchen, I wasn't at the front, yeah, I wasn't doing any paperwork. Only up until Maki number seven, which is St. James Carter.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Well, yeah. And again, it's an amazing, even that stage of having you know six or seven restaurants, to get to the position that you're able to open your second restaurant, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, you've got to build processes, consistency, have a level of quality assurance. How do you do that? There wasn't any. I didn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

So there wasn't any up until I think eight or nine actually. But there wasn't any processes. There wasn't any recipes. Well, there was kind of recipes, but it wasn't like clearly defined. Okay, put a spoon of this, put a spoon of that. It is more like for physical training. So I started with one, and then I have a chef, and then the chef become like a head chef, and I move on to the second one, and I hire another one, and then the chef becomes a head chef, so then I move on to the third one, and now I have two head chefs who know exactly what to do. But there wasn't any recipe written down there. I was just like putting in. It was unit was inconsistent in terms of food. So some people would say, oh, Marki 4 is tastier or the saltier than Marki 3 and all this kind of thing. It's happened actually, but it wasn't any consistency. There was some kind of like a guideline of like foundation of the broth.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Um, but yeah, so this is how I done that like physical training of them one by one. And this is why it takes me one year as well to open each, because I need to take uh about half a year time just to train the chef to become a head chef.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Um and what is it in when you're saying that? Are you are they is it much kind of hand by hand, hand in hand, showing them what to do? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Um because I work there, I work inside. Yeah. So they know exactly what I'm doing. So they were with me. Um, all these stand-up procedures, it's only when you like scale. Of course. So you're sitting in the office, the chef don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

There you go, read this. I think it's amazing to hear, and it's it shows you the strength of the brand, but also the product as well. Because most people are trying to scale businesses or grow their teams or whatever that may be, will think, okay, well, this is only going to happen if we build the conditions and the actually the environment, the systems, the processes to build that scale on top of, whereas you've almost had to have reverse engineer.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

I actually think you should be hands-on, get your hand dirty, set up a foundation, then those are paperwork. Yeah. Writing down a recipe. Um then you go for that paperwork. I it takes me too long to do it because again, I'm not very good at this. I do hire people to do it for me. Yeah. Um, I I just need to verbally tell them, like, this is how I put this output. And the thing is, I if they ask me again, I might change my mind. Oh, you know what? Don't put one teaspoon, put a spoon. Oh, don't put that. You know what? Just change it to this. Yeah. So if they're asking me again, I will just change the recipe. But because I cannot, I'm kind of like a person that I want it to improve a little bit better. So every time when I taste it, I was like, hmm, that ingredient is missing. Okay, let's change the recipe for that. So I'm still doing it. And unfortunately, the team is like, oh my god, he's tasting the food again.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

What are you like as a head chef, a leader, a colleague? What is that kind of what would people you know say about you and those in that regard?

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Um, well, I don't know, you need to ask them. Um, but then uh they call me sensei. Sensei is more like as a teacher, but it's more like you know, the the kung fu master. Yeah, of course, yeah. So it's more like um mentoring and this. Are you patient? Uh okay, so they I think well, they think that I'm impatient. I think I'm patient. But I'm also like I want a thing to be happen um now or proactively uh action them. Um because sometimes I put myself a timeline. If I give someone a project, I was expecting maybe one week. But then after one week they didn't apply. So for me it's like, hey, but for them, it's like maybe they're thinking three weeks' time, but I'm giving like one week, just just do it.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Yeah, you know, just yeah, just hit the button, that's all. Yeah. During those times and that that scaling, that hyperscaling from almost to the six or seven, what were some of the biggest challenges, failures, or regrets during that stage that you kind of reflect on now if you maybe had another chance, you'd do something differently. I will probably write the standard procedures sooner than this.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Um yeah, it it it was all over the place. Uh either is the account, the the you know, the bank statement. I couldn't see which one is profitable, which one is not, um, because it was like up to six. I think I control up to four. I can actually feel that because I used to like just pen and paper and write down the sales. Yeah, well. Um, but then it stopped because I just there's way too many things going on there. Um so so definitely hire a team between uh me and the manager head chef. I think that's like that's like something that I would do at that time. Um yeah, like admin team, like finance team. Um at that time I didn't have marketing yet. Um so like yeah, like really building a team between the operation and me.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

What was changing in terms of in your mind what the opportunity and could actually look like in terms of the scale of Mackey and Ramon? Because you're opening multiple different um sites in Edinburgh and just one city. What's that doing to you in terms of almost that realization of how big the vision could be and the scalability? Like what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Um so again, it looks like they it it's almost like no choice, but maybe I didn't know the choice, or I haven't really thought about opening Glasgow, for example. Um it was a moment that because I'm very familiar, it was confusion more like that I'm very familiar with Edinburgh, so it makes sense that I opened in Edinburgh and every opportunity comes out and in Edinburgh. And for training-wise, it's a lot much easier because we can just go around Edinburgh. Um we had five at that time, and then we jump into Glasgow the first time. I think the five is feel like, okay, that's enough. Yes. Where do you want? Oh, the closest one is Glasgow, you know. So we go to Glasgow.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Yeah. And for you, as uh you kind of said there in terms of some of the challenges, and for for the first four or five, you're having to almost run the business as well, and you're kind of writing everything a bit of paper. Um how's that how's that changed now? And we're gonna come into that next chapter of of the journey. But what did that look like, first of all, in terms of that that first step? What did you bring in whether it was like a financial manager, or what did it look like in terms of putting those people around you that so you can almost specialize in being the brand and the food and being able to bring in those subject matter experts that can really own a specific area that which maybe to your own vulnerability is not your strongest area?

SPEAKER_01 41:37

The first one I bought is actually um a coach, a business coach, correct? Yeah, um Alan Smith, I still remember him because in number three I had him, and then he was like just shaping my mindset. I had in this growth mindset all the time, because I always want uh one restaurant, okay, two restaurants, three restaurants, and then I'm like, I want more, but how do I control that? And the business is my weakest, actually. So then business coach. After business coach, he feed me in the idea of what I needed to do, but I couldn't execute it because I was very busy in the kitchen. It was just ticket after ticket. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then I started bringing people, uh start with um uh they call it personal assistance, secretary, and then I started to bring people more like specific, specialized in specific role. Um marketing then popped. Um and I didn't really bring her, she was like proposing, she was working in marketing ramen, and she was like, Look, I studied marketing, that's my subject in university, I can do XYZ for you, let me try. And she was very passionate because it was like a uh a project for him. And then the marketing come, and then the finance come, and then and then now he's like COO, CEO, CFO, and all these things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Yeah. COVID was a tough period for a lot of businesses. Yeah. Um what was that like for yourself and Mackie and Raman when that kind of hit and that that period?

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Um it was first of all, I remember that was very shocking because they say COVID and I was like, okay, it's just a flow. Yes. But then the government and now it's like close the door. This is when I'm like, what? And then we close. Um I think they give us like a day or two just like saying like close it. And we close and we didn't know like nothing about that. Everyone stays at home. I had six at the time, and a factory and a central kitchen. They're all like shot. One month later, this is when um my team signed to like get itchy. They're like, I want to work, you know. Like fairlow, not fair low, I just want to work. And I feel that because I also want to work. And and one of the teams say, one of the team members say, oh, our next door neighbor, the restaurant, they open only for takeaway. How about we try that? And he says it's like really busy. And I was like, okay, cool, let's try. So open one up. It wasn't busy, by the way, but we just opened. And then this is how things start to open up. And then we have staffing issue. We have to choose today either close number five or close number four. Because there is only one set of staff that I can move. Because there is well, there is part of the staff didn't really want to go back to work. Because they're enjoying the fellow. Why not? And then they kind of like enjoying the work from home time, those kind of things.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

And what was that like for you in terms of being a business owner? How did that impact you emotionally at home? How did that look?

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Emotionally was fine. It's more like the physical not being able to go to work. But we were set up like a small group of people, and this is when everything was rising. We were like, okay, COVID is not, it's not let us open. But what we can do, we can deliver it. So it wasn't starting with like an aggregator like delivery room. It was starting with our own delivery driver. So my dad, me, my wife, everyone with the car drive, and then we're doing marketing promotion. Everyone is on the phone at home. So I do that as well. So why don't we just invest on marketing, social media, boosting ads, and doing delivery? So we've done a lot of delivery. We crushed the entire system because we did like a discount. I think it was five pound ramin or something, right? 10 pound ramin, eight pound ramen, five pound ramin. And it was so much order. There was so much complaint. I called everyone who had a car to help me out with this. It was one time. One time. We didn't know it was that impact. We didn't know it would go viral and it was go such a big impact. And we're using our own driver, meaning that we have a limited amount of driver. And then we switched it on to deliver, so this is will not happen again because no matter how much order, deliverable will help because they have a lot of drive uh the rider. So yeah, that was like a lesson. Yeah. But it was it was good. It was fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

But I guess you kind of held your nerve as well in many ways, or in coming out the other side of COVID, and what you were able to do is use it as somewhat of a platform to really show your trajectory now and where you're going. How's it kind of shifted over the last five years or so since COVID around the well, maybe if you we've even go back to 2021 and 22, what was the vision then for Mackie and Raman? Was it almost just to get back up and running and focus on Edinburgh and your current customer base? Or was it were you thinking bigger in terms of how we scale and what what took it took you to where you're at now in terms of that that journey?

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Um the scaling wasn't come until Mackie 7, which is St. James. But after COVID, we were trying to like just get back on the feet. But what we see is also once once we open up uh with a limited seat in those kind of the social distances and stuff like that, we found that so I see a lot of my restaurant um um friends, or either someone that I know, or like they they starting to shutting down. And I see we are actually getting really busy after COVID. Once it's open, really, really busy. And I see like, oh, so there is something, a wave coming in. There are people shutting down, and there are people shriving. And we are driving. We are driving really fast at the time. And this is where I realized that, well, that brand can do something with that. But it was more like recovering, basically. Then Marky 7 St. James. This is when it's opened up because we were like thinking about shall we take St. James Quarter? Uh it was really expensive rent. Uh highest rent that we ever take is gonna be a very expensive renovation. And we're gonna go against a lot of giant, national giant, and we are like local basically. And once we open queue every day, the best sell density for all St. James Court of food for the consistent two years. Wow. So like this report is coming from them telling us we are the top one now. And this is when a lot of people realize that that they're like, hey, would you like to come to my shopping mall? So the landlord starting to do that. Um and this is when I'm like, okay, this is time to scale. Yeah. So what happens next? Um what ne happened next was Marquis 8, 9, 10, or um next was consolidation, because after opening St. James was really expensive. So we had to pay back loan. Um, there was a lot of different loan that we had to pay back. It took us one year to like just recover from it. And then Marquis Glasgow, uh Big Side, Markey 9, Manchester, Markey 10, Leeds. So that's like everything in one year. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the jumping from to England, proper skill, yeah, proper skill.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

What is that? A lot of people say when you're scaling a business, if you really want to scale, you've got to get out of your own way. And you can't be the blocker that actually stops you growing. Stepping back from being head chef to being CEO and founder, talk to me about the difficulties that you found in that and what were the most important things to get right to make sure that Mackie and Rabin was able to scale, but was able to do so without losing what its you know, its unique selling point was.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Um, it was uh it was a struggle because I was I wanted to do specific things in terms of the kitchen side, but then because in order for you to scale, you would need to give up something. And when I talked to the team, like even like being frugal, like like um what was that? Um training, for example. So before I train, I just be there, I hire the staff, and I train them and move on. Now is we had to, if I need 10 kitchens, I probably need to hire like 20 kitchen just to train them. And then we filter them. Some of them don't turn up, some of them didn't like the job, and then we filter them, we probably end up up until we open, or one month after we open, we end up like two or three of them, you know, out of twenty. And then we need to hire more. So this is all the standard procedures and everything. Um it wasn't like this when I remember. Like the chef wasn't like that difficult to work with. I didn't let anyone go like since March 7. Everyone just stayed. Um yeah, there's a lot of like this kind of like how do I say that? Um a micro example, um, I like to use chicken thigh to do chicken karage. I got a lot of complaints using chicken thigh to use to to do a chicken karate because they don't understand chicken thigh is actually when they give a bite, they're like, oh, it's pink, it's raw. They send back, they send back the livery complaint, this complain. You know what? Fine. Chicken breast, dry. Yeah, oh very good, very good. And I was like, why? So that that period of scaling is like because whether you're small, you don't care. If this is this is how I do it, you eat it. But now if I'm losing customer because of my belief that I think chicken thigh is better than chicken breast, so that's back and forth between your chicken breast, and then there was a time like recently, I think three three years ago, and then we're like, you know what? I have the money now, I don't care what you say, eat that chicken thigh, you can go somewhere else. Really? Yeah, yeah. So now it's chicken thighs.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

And what are some of the most important things that have enabled you to scale? Because you you talked a lot around the founding principles of Mackin Ramen is that nobody's doing ramen properly and you want to make that proper. But what comes with scaling so fast, and you're only gonna get more businesses whether it's private equity and investors coming in to really take advantage of that scale. What are the things that keep you up at night the most in terms of that quality assurance to make sure that if I go on the plane tomorrow and I go to Dubai, or if I go to Soho or I go to the O2, I'm having the exact same bowl of hell ramen as I am in St. James's Quarter?

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Um There was a con there was a debate before uh there was a cup of private equity coming over and and make an offer. The one thing I would protect is the product. So the ramen needs to be made, like not like frozen buy from somewhere and it's dehydrated and stuff like that. The broth needs to be proper bone cooking. I don't care where you're doing it, as long as it needs to be proper cooked at. And then this is the one kind of condition or the non-negotiable that if I will sell part of it, you're not gonna sacrifice that. You're not gonna do that because you're gonna tell me, well, we want to make more profit. Look at your food costs. We can do that. We can put some powder in the hot water thing, we can make more profit. That's like the only one thing that I'm like non-negotiable. Um obviously we didn't sell, we didn't sell to anyone. I just didn't feel it's the right time anyway. Um yeah, but scalability, I think like before I started with like um, you know, the pasta machine that you like manually. That's my that's my first pasta machine that I make ramen from Market 1. And then you get it, so manually you get an automate, yeah, automatic one, but a smaller one. And then you go for a bigger one and a bigger one and give it one. So it's machinery that will a bigger machine will give you like uh more product of ramen, the pot getting from uh a home cooking pot to like a 100 litre, 200-liter pot, industrial, yeah, industrial pot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

Talk to me around the focus on continuous improvement and the Kaizen methodology. And just to make sure that you're you're not standing still, you're gonna continue to develop and whether you make the product better, the staff better, the experience better. That's what you've you you're you know, you write a lot around the importance of that. Share a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Kaizen is meaning in the business is one percent better, but how you do that, you break it down into uh different sectors. Inside the sector, you break it down into even a smaller sector in the department or whatever you want to call that. Um, if I'm especially in food, so I will just talk about like how the ramen is getting better, 1% better. So if I break it down into the ramen itself, what flour I use, how much water content do I use egg, what is the resting time and so on, and how long we cook and how is the temperature is. So, but in a bigger scale, we're looking at like um if we will buy that item, will it speed up the whole delivery or the speed delivery for the kitchen or for the front? If we will reduce that and we will do that, will it be automatic, like you know, buying like a manual to automation? Um we used to doing Excel and we put numbers, we're transferring numbers from cash up sheets to the Excel one by one. And then technology comes, or you don't need to do it anymore. You can just tell this computer to transfer this information, CSV file, whatever, to your Excel that you need it to, and they will just build it up for you. So that's automation. So instead of me hiring a person just to put number transferring one uh number from point A to point B, automation. One click and it goes.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Yeah. Um Kaizen. Um what was the Kaizen rule?

SPEAKER_00 57:23

Um I think a lot of businesses will always talk around that and continuous improvement, but it's clear to see over the years, you've been living and breathing, breathing that. When you walk into one of your sites and restaurants, what is what is it you want to be seeing from the people that are delivering your brand, making the food? What are some of the standards that you expect to see?

SPEAKER_01 57:45

So nowadays, if I go into a restaurant, it's actually from the Kaizen kind of pyramid, is actually now is the bottom because that's the end result of it. Um I try to give you an example of something. Um, okay, so toilet clean. Okay, if I go into the restaurant, the toilet is not clean. Now I'm thinking about not just you, hey, can you clean the toilet? That's only solve one-time problem. Now then I'm looking up and I say, if they tick the box of cleaning the toilet, because we have like a tablet that you need to tick the box. If they tick the box but the toilet is not clean, then it's go up to another level, which is like, why is someone ticking the box but the toilet is not clean? And then what and then now I'm going up to a weekly or monthly report and then see if all the toilet is being green, green, green, green, green, or all other sites are they all green by cleaning toilet. If then it's go up to upper level, which is like area manager, why you why you're cut why that particular restaurant, the toilet is not clean. So then the area manager you go down back again and then go back to the COO because the CO is operation. It's like, why is your area manager and your manager and your staff not cleaning the toilet? So so when you go to the restaurant, it's actually the end result of what the system has been built. Correct. Yeah. Very different from maybe where you were at in Mackey 6 or 7. Yeah. So uh why we just clean the toilet. Of course, yeah. Problem solved, right? Yeah. That's problem solved. But the problem is now is more, it's a bigger problem than just cleaning a toilet. So I don't need to clean the toilet, but I just need to find out why the toilet is not clean. Where is the system where in the system is it broken?

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Yeah, broken. Yeah. I I really like that. What it's a good example, and people can take that away as a metaphor as um, yeah, around the broken toilet. Maybe a dev uh maybe a different uh sample. But I think it is a it's a it's a great one because then it's all it's probably gonna not only are you gonna think around where in that in the chain is the pro is the system broken, it's all also gonna make you ask a question around where else across my business are standards not where you need them to be? Yes. And go looking for that. And I think it's that's it's so important in terms of having those systems and again having Kaizen not just as a word that gets bandied around, but how do you actually live and breathe it to make sure that the business is gonna you know stay at that bar that it is of all the different ones? Um people. When you're hiring people, and you talked around the training and how you know important it is to get that right in the time, but now you're starting to hire people coming from probably bigger corporate organizations into senior leadership roles. What are the expectations from the people that you're bringing in, whether it's the values that they have and their ambition and skill sets? What were the key things that you really hold a high bar to when you're hiring?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

I prefer to uh grow my own team. So I would rather have them to like start low and then build them rather than like have external. We do that, but maybe 10% of it is coming from external, and then the rest of it is growing from team. Even from external, I would I would like them to like, if it's like area manager, for example, so they need to take over a region, like maybe five, six restaurants. If they have experience in area manager, they did this restaurant, that restaurant, I was used to manage 10 restaurants, 15 restaurants, I want them to work as a front-of-house first. And then not like uh you need to work one year here, one year there in order in, but with the spotlight of like, hey, I want you to train in front of house, train in about, train as a GM, as a manager, and then go up to area manager. Within this time, we can see things. So I can hear some feedback from the team, from the bar, from the kitchen. Then we can decide whether we want him to become an area manager or not. Now, normally they would become area manager only from front house, um, supervisor, assistant manager, manager, and area manager. So there is a particular person that is doing very well in terms of KPI on that particular site, then they become an area manager because they've done something right. And I want that to be cloned that person and continue to do that. And this is why that person has become area manager. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

I think a lot because it's it's always the case when a business scales and goes to that next level, you're gonna be bringing in people that are coming from different organizations, different cultures, but being able to embed them in the core of what the product and the service is, yeah, I think is only going to really strengthen things. Yeah. Um, so now, current state in terms of MACA, 19 sites? 19 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

I don't so it's a bit confusing because I'm like because these during these 11 years, there is Maki 1 and 2 has combined together. So basically, my my first one, my second one closed down um because the lease is over 10 years. So because it closed down, I have to find something become Maki 1. Ikigai Ramin, I have another brand called Ikigai Ramin, which is uh turned it into number five. So Maki number five turned into Ikigai Ramin. But in general speaking, we're up to Marky 19 plus three franchise, so 21. Yeah, plus minus.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

What's the and you've obviously recently w gone uh international as well? You've now got out in Dubai. What's that been like in terms of the challenges? You've obviously gone from Edinburgh, then you've gone to Glasgow, then down to England, now going international. What's that looked like in some of the challenges of doing that from uh a business scalability internationally?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Um the Dubai things is so we went with like a chess path of like, hey, we are Mark Rabin. And then they were like, Well, I don't care. Yeah. And then I was like, I want to be in that mall because that's the busiest mall. It's like a Westfield London kind of like mall. I was like, okay, just how much? I was like, whoa, wait a minute. And then we thinking about, oh, yeah, Marky Rabbi, we're big brown in, but then then I pick uh a very well it's a five-star hotel, but it's outside the kind of like this the city center. Because I got a shift minded now and was like, wait a minute, before we start big, how about we go with seed first? We do seeding, we get to know the customer, because we don't know. We get to know the compliances, but we don't know. It's very different there. Like your hiring process, how you set up a company, everything is very different. And we lost our very our main product, which is called the Tongkatsu ramen, which is like a pork ramen. We don't have that now, because we cannot sell pork. And we sell, and we lost probably 15% of our sale from not selling alcohol. So now of a sudden it's all changed. Um lucky or maybe unlucky, I opened it up and then it was like one month, two months delay when I complained that like mooring about it with the Dubai people is like, welcome to Dubai. Everyone, everything is late now. But I see a good opportunity because there is a lot of things going on there. So I started sitting. Um, when I opened Ramadan, like, okay, so I lost my lunch. They start eating at six or seven o'clock, and I'm not well established, so I got zero trade. And then uh and then the war started, so then a lot of people left. So I'm in a situation now is like try to survive in Dubai. But I understand all the circumstances, and this is why I'm like, okay, let's leave it as as it is. And the way that I say lucky and unlucky is unlucky, there is I just open a restaurant and all these things happen. They never had a war or something. Um but and then it's lucky because I didn't choose like the city center main shopping mall to start with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

Yeah. What's the ambition now? Because you're obviously at 19 sites. What is the what's most important of what's the vision now for Mackie and Ramon? What it can become, what you want it to be as you look to the future?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

Um there will be another six more this year, 26. Um, and then 27. We just had a meeting saying like, no more, uh, consolidate, fixing the system. Because what I see, it's more like um, you know, it's like a pizza doll that when you stretch it, you make it bigger, especially the sour doll, and then you start to see a lot of hole in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

I've recently just bought an uni and I've been trying to learn how to stretch pizza. Exactly. It's exactly what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:18

Yeah, and then you got this little hole that happened in the middle, and now you cannot put any more sauce in there because it's leaked. So then what you do? You wait, sometimes waiting at time that doll will shrink it back because it's resting. Another one is you look at that microscope, look at that, where is the hole is. This is go back to the kaizen. Yeah, right? So we had one year of break. I'm not saying we're not gonna um uh expand, but we will not expand as fast as. So 25 is eight side, uh, eight restaurants, 26 is 12 restaurants, so 27 is like, hmm, go for a break. So let's look at where where is the problem. We recently ran like um we asked all the GM and the head chef, give me problem. Because we always talk about problem solution. Like five-star review, one-star review, everyone look at one-star review. Like as a team, we need to look at one-star review. Same as this. Bring me problem, let us solve it. And we write down all the problems we have, we break it down from the problem to which department it belongs, and then we just list it all out. Uh, and then we will just tackle each individual of them. We can tackle that like clean the toilet, so fast um uh quick win. And then we can tackle that in like let's build a system that is not gonna happen again. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:49

Well, great analogy as well. The pizza dough one. I'm gonna steal that. Um I just use food analogy. That's brilliant. And it's I think it's great what you've shown there is when you're a business like yourself, and again, when you stood up and did that keynote speech, the trajectory of the graph is crazy. And it'd be easy to just keep going more and more and more. But to have actually the discipline of if we don't just take stock and reflect and actually have a bit of a retrospective on what's working, why is it working, what's not working, how do we fix it. You're gonna really, if you get that right, you're gonna set yourself up for for even bigger growth. But just having the discipline must be difficult being CEO and founder when it's easy to get carried away with that skill.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:33

Well, I think 26 opening 12 is already a carry away, to be honest. Yeah, I didn't um we didn't realize it until we like, yes, or yes, oh there's a site here. Oh, that's good, yes, and yes, and yes. And then by the time when I say all these 12 years, yeah, it was like too late. Yeah. Because if I say no now, it will cost yeah, 200,000, 400,000, depend on and from a business perspective, how are you making that work?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:01

Is that is that loans to gonna make make that work? Obviously. Uh loan, um, investors.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:07

Um, that's like in terms of financial, yes. Um, we have some reserved, like it's good, we call it baseline. So we're gonna hurt our baseline a little bit. Uh, but it is when the base baseline is hurt, this is where the risk comes from. Of course. So we reserve, like, say, one month's worth of um expenses. So if there is anything happen, all the restaurants shut down today. We still have one month payoff the staff, pay off the rent. So Safety Banket. Yeah, save the blanket. This is what we call the baseline. And sometimes we can take some of this money to expand, but that's where the risk is. Yeah. Because if we take the money out, then have something happen, then we don't have money. So this is where the cash flow is playing. Um so far is okay. Um, we'll rather like borrow, ask for investors. Um, yeah, there is a lot of there's a lot of ways to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

What's so tell me about your role now then and how that looks. What does your day-to-day, week to week look like as CEO and founder of you know, a fast-scaling food empire? Fast scaling.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:20

Um, day-to-day. Um, I I think I'm more visionary now rather than like before I wasn't visionary. I was just day by day working and that's it. I'm more visionary, I'm looking at some trend. Uh, there's like um frozen ramen, for example. I mentioned there. Like, okay, there's a trend of frozen ramen, let's try that out. So we start seeing it later on. Hopefully, we'll go to like supermarket and stuff like that. So visionary. Uh sushi pop, which is like a like a viral video, went out in uh in New York. And now I see that in the Netherlands, in in UK, in some of the places. So it's like sushi pop is gonna trend, let's do it. Okay, it's not like sushi pop, let's buy it from from some kind of like a warehouse pop, put some sushi then sell. It's more like a lot of planning, the um so and a design of the pop and everything. Uh so a lot of visionary things, a decision making, uh that's like a thing. Um do we open here? Do we open there? Let's look at the Skype analysis, uh, how what is the people like population, what is the demographic, what is the age group, um, and then making decisions based on number and also based on guts. So actually go in the sites, walk around the street. Me and Michael was always my our CEO, COO. We always laugh at like every time when you go and see a site, uh, one of the tick boxes is walk 20,000 steps. Because that's the only way that we can kind of like feel the city. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of new cities that haven't been, and we have Maki Ramindale, um, Nottingham, first time being there, walk around the city, feel the vibe, view the people, see who is passing by, uh what car they're driving, what building is it, and then what shopping mall they'll have, what offering retail uh um offering, and then really feel the vibe and then making a decision.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

That must be quite exciting. Exciting, yeah. Yeah, to look around and see and almost get that when all those boxes are getting ticked in terms of the demographic, the footfall, the mall, and things like that. And when you think we should put a site here, that must be quite a feeling. Well, after all that, sometimes we get it wrong. Yeah, it was like, yeah. What stresses you out the most? You've obviously this year you said you're opening 12 sites, which is probably enough to stress just saying that out loud. But what is what is it, what are the things that you stress the most about or kind of get you uh in in that kind of state?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:09

I am very conscious that when you expand fast, you will have a lot of problems after that. So this is when we're talking about the consolidation. But I am worried that there will be unperformance sites that we're not aware of. And that's a problem. Like you have consistent go up by numbers, and then you don't feel it. They are just like quiet, silence, going up by number, making profit, but you don't feel it because they're not like dramatically go up so you can see it. They are consistent, but at the same time, you also have consistent going down, so you won't feel it. Maybe a number of customers, 1000, you drop 10, you won't feel it after one week and one week and one week. So if you think about the Kaizen 1% better, I'm worried about the 1%, the minus 1% that you don't feel it, but it's crippled into a size that by the time we realize that it's too late. Yeah. Yeah. So I try to a lot, I try to always avoid this. So I'm just looking at the number. Is it the number of customers? Is it the average spend? Uh what's happening in here, what's happening in there, is there's more restaurant opening up, or is that like something to do with the human, uh, like the service? So look at Google Reveal. I'm looking more deeper, sending mystery customer inside. Um, I'm looking at the kitchen, I'm talking to the head chef, talk to the KP or the chef, instead of talk to the head chef, tell me what's going on inside. But sometimes head chef GM would give you positive. But what I want is I want the dirty bits, yeah. Truth.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:57

Yeah. Yeah. How have you changed as a leader over the last five, ten years as the business has scaled? What have you learned as your strengths, but maybe your development areas as well? And how's that kind of changed your journey as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:12

Um, at first I learned to let go some of my staff because um I didn't want anyone to touch my number, anyone dealing with this, and dealing with that, and then slightly let go, maybe it's out of like choice because it was just too much. I changed as a leader. I think I'm more calm now. Before I was in the kitchen, I was just very aggressive. Um and lead by example. Um I learned that um if I do something like dodgy, something wrong, the team will follow. Yeah. So I have to like keep myself really in like a standing position, ready to go. Um I like being proactive. So that I think the team is really picked it up uh really fast. Um I don't like to wait. Like if I think about a project, I need it done. Um so maybe this is where the impatience comes from. Um yeah, learning as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

What's um how big can Mackin Ramen become? Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:29

Um unlimited. There's no limit. So I say no limit is not only like, okay, how many restaurants can you open? Yeah. Okay, they give you a number, 50. Great. But how about merchandise? How about the frozen ramen? How about the sushi pump? How about a lot of other things, sponsorship, uh subscription, uh, membership, and all this, like there is so much we can do there. Um so I don't I don't I I don't see a limit in there. Um, there is just so much we can do after that as well. How about products like selling product like ramen only in a supermarket? You know, how about we become the chili sauce? We have the hell ramen, it's very famous. How about we sell some chili sauce, you know? And how about using the IP, the intellectual property to do something with that? Um franchise is another one that's like so it's not only opening corporate shop, it's a lot more than that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:32

Yeah, will you be a part of it forever?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

I'm sure I'm debating. Um part of me wanted to because after during the COVID time, there was like time that, like, hey, when we're gonna stall, when we're gonna retire. But after the COVID, it's like I'm not gonna retire. Like, there's no way I'm gonna retire. This is so boring. Um, so yes, um we need to be maybe pass on to my to my uh to my daughter. Um, but right now they're too young to do that. Um it's probably gonna be the COO, because he's the one who really understand the business if I do ever want to step out. Um but right now I I I think Mike is my life as well. Yeah. So I think without that, I just don't know what I'm doing. Like I've not not much of a interest in anything. And I I don't know celebrities, I don't know footballers, I I just only interested in restaurants and this.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:39

Speaks volumes of why you are where you are, I think. It's you talked about that being that you know young teenager and wanting to work in restaurants and now you're doing this. From maybe not from from when you opened that first sight of Mack and Raman or even in those uh Jimmy Chungs or whatever. Could you could you even imagine to be where you are now? No, no way.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:00

Like it's um I always have a very small mindset, so it's just like day-to-day and then just enough because you know when you go into like you cannot work somewhere else, by the way. When you're in UK and you're on work permit, there's only one dedicated specific restaurant that you need to work for. And it's no matter what, this there you go. So you if you work six days, you work six days. If you if they need you to work seven days, seven days. I didn't had Christmas, which is the 24th or the 20th, 24th, 25th, and the boxing day for the last maybe 15 years. I never had that a day off there. Because there's always, you know what's restaurant industry? 24th, like 25th, the busiest uh time. They they used to increase the price by double because it's 25th. And then so everyone needs to work. So for the last maybe 15 years, I didn't really have that Christmas thing. It wasn't in my thing until my wife was like, hey, enough, let's go for Christmas dinner. So what is Christmas dinner?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

She will be so peace. Um are you content? Are you happy with where you're at on the journey, or are you itching for more? Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:23

Um so it is more like I'm less like so there was a time that was saying, like, I want to have a dream job. My dream job is getting at that time was 1,600 pounds a month, uh, closer to a gym and a cinema. That's all I'm asking for. And I got it. Okay, it was closer to the gym, it was closer to the cinema, and then I got 1,600. Then it's go up, right? My uh I was uh setting myself a passive income at 2,000 pounds uh per month because put 2,000 pounds just enough for me to like uh go on with my life, but I still need to work and it's just enough. But now the fact is 2,000 is also not enough. Um so there is always like uh enough until it's not right. Um so but now I'm very, very happy. Like it's like this kind of achievement and and all this like look back with you know what you mentioned before, um very happy, no no regret. Um do I want more? I don't think I want more in terms of like it's not the num, it's it's not the money, it's more like the numbers. It's like, do I get it right? That if you play a game, you want to score 100%. So right now, if I'm scoring 80, can I play that again and score 90? Can I play again and put uh and score 100? But there's nothing to do with money, you don't get money from that game.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:55

You know, great. Amazing. Thanks so much, Teddy. Got a few quickfire questions to finish. Okay. Um and don't worry, you can you can think a little bit, you don't need to be too quickfire. Um for yourself, do you believe great leaders are born or developed?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:13

A great leader is Devillock, but uh top tier 10% great leader is born in um Devil.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:26

Really good. If you could go for a coffee or any drink of choice uh with one leader and pick their brains for a couple of hours, who would it be and what would you ask?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:37

I want like um someone like C O O C O of Wagamam. Um I will because the reason is take away the product. I think they have a great business model. And I want to know like what is the location doing, how do you control the staff calls? I want to pick someone who has the same kind of restaurant industry, but bigger than me. Like if I have 30, I want someone at 50 or 60 restaurants. So they went through my path, so they know that. But I need someone who went through from 30 to 60 in order for them to tell me, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:18

Yeah, really good. Maybe just go and hire them, bring them in. Um what's your most important non-negotiable as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:28

Um, non-negotiable will be proactive. Um, it has to be one, two, three, five-step thinking ahead and doing things like much faster than anyone else. What's one word that would define your leadership style? Autonomy. I give autonomy, I give them, but I will follow up.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:49

Really good. Um when you're leading a team, which behavior are you least tolerant of?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:56

Least tolerant? Yeah. So like less so unaccepted, yeah. Um opposite of proactive. Uh lazy, proact um um uh procrastination, um, you know, not getting the things on on time.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:12

Yeah, good. Um what three words would your colleagues, counterparts use to describe Teddy Lee?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:21

I think sense is more like a mentor, impatient, which I disagree. Um, and I think I'm kind of calm. Like I get that. Um I'm I'm calm. Maybe not in those early restaurant years. Yeah. But uh if you even walk with me in the kitchen, maybe it's the different song, but now we're here.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:41

Who are the two people that have had the biggest influence on you as a leader, a chef, a CEO, as a person?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:48

Well, the first one was my uh is my dad. Um, I think because he opened a restaurant, so then I'm kind of a f follow his path. The second one was my coach, um, Alan Swift, because he's actually teaching me the right way of thinking about business and rather than like working in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:11

What's the best team environment you've been a part of and why?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:15

Best team environment. Um there was this, so I was working with uh in a kitchen. It was very smooth. It was like me and in and while it's well, it was supposed to be three chefs, and then one of them didn't turn up off sick, whatever, obviously. But then there were two people and it's extremely busy. We didn't speak a word. We went through a three-hour, very busy um uh shift without speaking a word. But we read the body language between us, and we went it very smooth. And I think that's I still remember that, but because that was like 20 odd years ago, but it was the thing that you don't talk, but then you s you feel it, and it's just smooth. I like that kind of like atmosphere and not no toxic, of course. But sometimes we as a if you look at it at a bigger picture, not only working there, but then a bigger picture is like team that sit down, we brainstorm something together, and we come up with the idea. That was a very productive kind of like uh day.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:29

So yeah. And it attaches to a lot your um you talked on your non-negotiable, actually, that proactiveness around how do you continue to improve and it's the strong themes coming through. Yeah. If you could have a five minute conversation with a 15 year old Teddy Lee, what would you say to him?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:46

Um I won't say anything. Because if I was tell him, I would probably tell him, like, oh, don't go for the restaurant industry, it was very uh hard. Um, but if I knowing what I'm Knowing now, just like, hey, you know. Um, I would probably tell him go and open your own restaurant as soon as I think I think that's what I would do. Because I was delayed because of all these um, you know, blocking permit, uh, illegal immigrant things, but I will find a way to like open it as soon as.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:21

Yeah. How important has it been on the journey, and just in general, do you believe whether it's that advice you're giving there, to make mistakes and to fail and get things wrong in order to get things right?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:33

So I like to do things. What we say is this sometimes I have a lot of examples of this, which is like the team brainstorming something, and then say, and then they're like, okay, let's do this, let's do this, let's apply for this, let's do compliances, let's do like standard procedures. And this I was like, no, just make the product, put it on the door, start selling it. And then you find out, oh, let's do a focus group. No, just put the product, sell it. You will you will receive feedback, you will receive operational issues. I would rather do that first, before all this planning, and then make mistakes. But by the time that the team will come up with that product, I already make like 10 mistakes, but I already start selling it. So yeah, this is like this is something that I always work with that like I want to execute it first, learn from that, taking those mistakes then. And by the way, it's not mean that after you do all these um standard procedures, you don't make mistakes. You still gotta make mistakes. So, what's the point? Why don't you just execute it first and then learn from your mistake and and continue improvement? Like my rhyming, it wasn't good enough for the year one. But you learn your feedback and then you yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:57

Excellent. Final question What's the best piece of advice you've been given that you can pass on to our audience?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:04

Best piece of advice, you only need one sharp knife in your life, and that's reflected to like I only need one Maki Ramin uh brand that is doing very well. I don't need any other brand, which I do, so but then it wasn't doing so well. So it's like if I sharpen Maki Ramin and I continue working on Kaizen to sharpen it, 1% is actually the sharpening knife. Um, I will go much further. Yeah. Really good. Ted Willi, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you very much for having me. Cheers. Thank you.