Protecting men with our silence

Content warning: This episode contains a personal essay that references infidelity and the discovery of illegal pornography involving minors. Please listen with that in mind.

Show Notes

• A writer reads her original personal essay about discovering her husband’s infidelities, disturbing online activity, and a Craigslist ad — and the quiet, calculated way she chose to end her marriage
• Steph and her anonymous guest reflect on the painful decision to protect a spouse’s image from their adult children, and the hidden cost of carrying that silence alone
• They discuss the generational programming that kept so many women “playing small”—and the moment it finally became impossible to continue
• The unexpected freedom and joy of building a life entirely on your own terms — pink bedrooms, yellow walls, and all. 
• How do you know when it’s time to go? And what role does parenting play in the decision to leave a marriage?

Quotable Moments

• “I’d rather be alone than lonely with someone.”
• “We owe ourselves something and we owe our children being able to see their parent living their best life.”
• “How do my children learn to take chances and bet on themselves if their own mother can’t do the same?”
• “The most important thing was making a life that I wanted to live. . . I have built a life that I love.”
•  “I worried about all of the dark things that we do when we’re radically changing our lives.”
• “ Surrendering control over the situation is when I finally found the space to be me.”
• “Alone is beautiful, too.”

**This episode references this piece on couples’ counseling with a narcissist on The Mother Lode by Cindy DiTiberio

We are halfway through the Writing Divorce prompt series—paid subscribers can find the prompts as they drop here on the Redacted Substack column.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome back to the Redacted Limited Series podcast. I'm your host, Steph Springer. Today I'm sharing a powerful piece called the Craigslist ad that was submitted by an anonymous author almost a year ago, and was published on the Redacted Substack column in the fall. The author and I recorded this episode last November, and I'm airing it right now just as the Epstein files are top of mind for a lot of people. And with that in mind, I'm going to issue a content warning. This episode contains a personal essay that references infidelity and the discovery of illegal pornography involving minors as well as fantasies involving sexual violence. The piece itself is just a few minutes when read aloud, and the author and I have a powerful conversation afterward about the roles that women have played in protecting men. It's an important episode, and I hope that you're able to listen to it, but the most important thing is that you as a listener, take care of yourself.

Anon 0:59

The Craigslist ad, how I found it. Important. I was snooping. In his Facebook messages, I found the flirtation with a high school classmate. It reminded me of our first big fight 20 years earlier, my first instinct to get out when I found his online flirtation and request for renewed photos from a stranger. This time, the innuendos, the playful plotting of his infidelity, resurrected my disappointment in his ego's need for titillation. Then the adoring messages to a current theater castmate. He had assured me she was just a good friend. The cliched lie revealed by the messages delighting in a drunken kiss. His need for more, his searching, yearning for another, chasing a boost to his ego and destroying mine. It was not difficult to find the porn. I knew it was there. I just didn't expect the underage genre below the age of consent. My stomach turned. Do I turn him in? Do I ruin his life? Or worse? Does he end up back home with legal bills that are my financial responsibility? Am I a prude who doesn't understand healthy male desire and just wants revenge for her precious, naive feelings? I was snooping. And then in his email, a summary of the personal ad he placed on Craigslist looking for someone to let him simulate rape scenarios, rape. The word rang through my body and broke my marriage for good. The beginning of the final ending. He didn't realize his mistakes were in the seeking, not the failure to consummate. We told our adult kids we're better as friends. My discretion saves me money and time in the divorce settlement. My silence allows him to still be seen as a good man in the eyes of his kids. It's my lie.

Steph 3:12

Oof. You read that beautifully.

Anon 3:14

Thank you.

Steph 3:15

Well done. That was one of the very first pieces. That ran on the Substack column and it's, it's so powerful and I think that it has so many layers to it. The first one that I want to ask you about, and I, I have a friend who's been in a situation where, again, it's the, you tell the kids this, people save face, and then there's that wondering of if they ever suspect that that's not true.

Anon 3:49

I wish they had that. I wish they suspected something was more they, my adult kids, each of them have had breakups since. Divorce. And ironically, some of the things they have broken up with their partners for is just one element of what I just read. Maybe one piece of it happened. Their boyfriend chose to spend time with another person over spending time with them and then kind of gaslit them about it. Mm-hmm. And, and so I wanted to be able to empathize with them. But it was impossible. It was, it was betraying the promise I made to my ex to not talk about his failings.

Steph 4:38

Right. And it's such a double-edged sword. I mean, it really, it really is a, is a no win because like you said, saving time and money and heartache and hassle with the actual process. And then nobody wants for their child to think terrible things about one of their parents.

Anon 4:56

Right.

Steph 4:57

And nobody wants to bear the burden of your father isn't who you think he is. It's impossible. It's an impossible situation.

Anon 5:11

Steph, I grew up the child of divorced parents. They divorced when I was 10, and I was in the middle of that. So my mother made sure I knew exactly what my father had done wrong. My father made sure I knew exactly what my mother had done wrong. It was so damaging as a child to be put in the middle like that and to be forced to bear witness to the worst sides of each parent.

Steph 5:36

Right.

Anon 5:36

I did not wanna do that to my kids.

Steph 5:39

No. And I think that's extremely healthy and, and I think one of the reasons I wanted to create redacted is because these situations we're in where spilling it is not the best scenario, or at least not in full. But yet, then you're left with this, this horrible burden. You're carrying this truth that only you know, and you know, I have a friend whose child has begun to put pieces together and there's an element of relief, right? There's an element of relief. Um, I've watched this with several of my divorced friends. Oh, there's starting to, uh, the scales are falling from their eyes a little bit, but then on the other hand, it is very deeply painful for a child to think terrible things about their parent, especially when you consider. Wow, I'm half of this person and half of that person, and I remember a family therapist talking about that with us when if, if I were to say villainize my former husband, I've got a child who's gonna say, well, that's half me.

Anon 6:41

That's right. And I love that person. And how can I love that person who did those horrible things to my mother?

Steph 6:47

Right. And am I a horrible person also? Do I have that in me? Um, but you know what you said about, you know, your children having experienced breakups after this, and some of those reasons, like you are still able to be a guide for them and set an example for them. I talked with a writer yesterday after a recording who said, think of the things you're teaching your daughters about marriage and relationships and avoiding the same mistakes. I think we can still do that even if they don't have the full peek behind the curtain.

Anon 7:15

Agreed. And I do think there has been a, an ability in my head to very carefully, not empathize, but to be there and be present and to understand the emotion they were going through. That is very true and, and honestly, part of the reason that I was finally able to make it the end was because I knew I could not model that type of relationship for my kids. Like that is not the relationship I would want for them as an adult.

Steph 7:44

And I think that that's something that is of, that often falls by the wayside in lieu of staying together for the children, which I think any therapist worth their salt would say, don't do that. You know, we, we feel like we have this ability or this obligation rather, to keep their house stable, keep their lives stable, the same as everyone else. Uncomplicated. We think that that's the duty when really the duty is, we are teaching them how to be an. Partnership. We are teaching them what it looks like to give and receive. Love

Anon 8:16

that. That's such a good point. And I think it in some ways, it would've been easier just to stay roommates. We were roommates for a really long time, so we had separate bedrooms. He was in my daughter's old room when she went off and had moved out of the house and it worked for a while. Mm-hmm. Until things just, I. I couldn't keep myself small any longer. I couldn't,

Steph 8:45

ah,

Anon 8:45

I was tired of being lonely in a marriage. I'd rather be alone than lonely with someone.

Steph 8:54

Yes. I was going to ask you, when did it finally stop working? And you told me. And those reasons are so deeply resonant with me. Um, there is no other kind of loneliness, like being lonely when you aren't alone.

Anon 9:10

Exactly.

Steph 9:11

There was a day that my oldest daughter came upon me when I was, I had my back turned in a different room. I was crying and I didn't want her to see, and she found me and she said, what's wrong? And I said, honey, I'm just lonely. And she said, haven't you been lonely for a long time?

Anon 9:25

Oh wow. Oof.

Steph 9:27

Yeah. Oof. Mm-hmm. And, um, and unwillingness to play small. I think about how many generations of women have just kept quiet, endured, um, tolerated, loneliness, kept playing small, and it's sort of like someone has rung a bell that is spreading. And others are hearing it and, and waking up to this, this doesn't work. I don't want to do this. I reject this, this thing that, this legacy burden that's been handed to me. And I think about something you wrote in the earliest part of your piece about 20 years earlier, or the first, like so many writers have shared stories that have. This theme, especially the anthology. I can't wait for people to read that one. So many of those writers who wrote about ignoring what they knew, like ignoring the the string of red flags. The first time I heard the little voice, the second time I heard the little voice. So earlier on you had that little niggling.

Anon 10:24

Of course. And I am a woman in my late fifties. Well, divorce did happen and certainly happened to my parents. I was taught that's not what you did as a wife. It was the burden of the wife to keep the marriage together even when there was misbehavior on the husband's side. So infidelity. Wasn't a capital crime. It wasn't necessarily a reason for divorce as I was growing up and learning these lessons. So one, I thought it was my fault that I wasn't doing enough in the marriage. And two, I felt like it was my responsibility to fix it.

Steph 11:01

Mm-hmm.

Anon 11:02

And so I tried, I tried to do what I could. Um. You know, uh, do you remember Marie Kondo the mm-hmm. Life Changing Guide? I, I can't remember the exact title, but it, the Life

Steph 11:13

Changing Magic of Tidying Up.

Anon 11:15

Is that it? Exactly. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And, um, I don't necessarily like to say that things changed my life, but that book did and I started. Small. I started exec, I was reading it. I was tired of my life being cluttered. I was tired of not loving my life right and feeling like I should be doing more. I was depressed. I didn't know that at the time staff, but, um, my closet was, you couldn't even walk in it. It was like a hoarder lived in my house, not, not quite, um, but close. And so I started systemically working through that. And in my closet I realized I was carrying a lot of things for a lot of people. In my closet. I had my son's band instrument. I had my daughter's prom dresses. I had, um, my husband at the time, his comic book collection, and I'm like, well, no wonder I can't get into my own closet. Everyone's else's things are in there. But I started working systemically through the house. By the time I got to the basement, I was going through boxes of things from the past 10, 20 years, and I would find. Um, boxes that had photos from Disney World and where we're all smiling as a family, but they were in the same box as um, insufficient fund notices from the bank. And I was carrying that financial stress alone the entire time. And I realized I was tired of being the one who kept the family together on my own. I wanted. If I was going to be doing it alone, I might as well have the freedom of being alone. And so while I was cleaning out the basement and sorting out my feelings about the snooping I had done that I read about, um, it all came together and it just, I just knew I would have to surrender what other people thought of me. That could no longer be the most important thing. The most important thing was. Making a life that I wanted to live. And so I thought my children might hate me. I really did. I thought that by walking away from all of this, they might hate me. He might commit suicide. Like I worried about all of the dark things that we do when we're radically changing our lives. And thankfully my children don't hate me. He is still alive and kicking. Um. And I realized that, um, in surrendering control over the situation is when I finally found the space to be me.

Steph 13:57

That is so incredibly profound and inspiring. I am so grateful that I have a recording of you saying that so I can listen to it because that, that's a lantern bearer message that somebody is going to hear this and need to hear it. Somebody is going to hear this and burst into tears because it's going to be the permission slip that they need, and I think there are probably so many things that are very unique about. The circumstances of your marriage, your divorce, your life, you as a person, and yet there are so many things that I know are baked into other women as well. There are so many ways in which your story is, my story is their story.

Anon 14:36

Right we owe ourselves something and we owe our children being able to see their parent living their best life. I believe that how do my children learn to take chances and to bet on themselves and to make choices that are in their own best interest if their own mother can't do the same,

Steph 14:56

right? This is how we teach them,

Anon 14:59

right? It's not what I say, it's what I do. It's what I have the courage to do.

Steph 15:03

Right. I, at the very beginning of my divorce, I was listening to him an episode of We Can Do Hard Things. Mm-hmm. And I think, I think it was Kelly Clarkson was on, and she was talking about her like, think, eat, pray, love crying on the bathroom floor moment. And she realized, she asked herself, is this relationship what I would hope for for my children?

Anon 15:27

Right.

Steph 15:28

And if the answer is no. You have no business staying. And you know at that point, how many of us haven't tried everything? None of us are in a hurry to trash a life or consider a partner. We've pledged ourselves to as disposable. We're not in the business of just destroying lives for the hell of it. I mean, when you have that moment that is this all there is? Would I want this for my children? I'm so lonely I can't do. When you have that moment, you have likely. Been to therapy myriad times. Read all the books, tried the date nights gone on the retreat. I mean, how much of yourself are you going to lay at that pyre,

Anon 16:08

right? And, and, and yet I think the prevailing messages are out there. Are, make it work.

Steph 16:15

Yes.

Anon 16:15

Find a way. What are you doing? You know, and sometimes you just, all that's left is to walk away.

Steph 16:24

Yes. Um, my God, that's so brilliantly said Cindy, who does the mother load on Substack? Wrote an article about, um, couples counseling specifically with a narcissist, and so that's its own special animal. But she talked about how one of the dangers of couples counseling is that frequently, and I'm paraphrasing here, I'll link to this in the show notes. Um, the focus is, it's like the relationship. Is the patient. Right. And so, and that's just the way, that's just the paradigm of couples counseling, that the focus is on healing the relationship rather than healing or saving the save the relationship rather than saving the people in the relationship. Mm-hmm. I think that that can be so harmful, and I think frequently, more often than not, I know there are exceptions. I have friends who were married to terrible women and they've ruined their lives. Like I get it that this happens to men, but more often than not, the person who is sacrificing themselves during those therapy sessions, it's women.

Anon 17:27

Absolutely. Absolutely. As the woman. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and what I'll say about that as well. I could only get him to go to one couple's counseling, um, session. Um, just in terms of context and in, even in that, the therapist looked at me and almost had a shrug of the shoulders of like, what do we do with this?

Steph 17:50

Mm-hmm.

Anon 17:51

Um, so somehow that was like micro permission for me to feel the feelings I'd been feeling all along. Why did I need that reflected back to me that it was permission for me to feel my frustration. I, I don't know, but I will say I did grow up with a narcissistic father.

Steph 18:09

Mm-hmm.

Anon 18:10

I would not have been able to heal from that father daughter relationship without stepping away from my marriage. When I did,

Steph 18:19

yes,

Anon 18:21

I had carried that into and through my marriage. It doesn't mean it broke the marriage, but it does mean that while I was in the marriage, I could not grow past that. I was stuck as well. Stuck in a dynamic of subservience.

Steph 18:36

Yes. So many of our adult relationships, our, our little child selves attempt to make things right, aren't they?

Anon 18:44

Mm-hmm. Right, right. And so what I did was I was hyper responsible. I was a sole breadwinner. I still thought I should be the one taking care of the kids' dentist appointment. You know, it's that hyper responsibility that many of us do. Many of us do in that situation, and I was taking care of the, the ex-spouse as if he was one of my children. Mm-hmm. He was just the one that wouldn't grow up.

Steph 19:10

Right. Something you said when you were talking about the, like, if I'm gonna do everything, I'd rather just, I've been divorced twice. Not sure if you knew that. And the first time I had a, a little baby. Um, and I remember, uh, taking my, my nursing infant with me to therapy once a week and basically trying to. Pave my exit strategy and, and I said to my therapist that I felt like a single mom with a cool boyfriend who stopped by sometimes, and that if I was going to be the only adult in the house, I wanted to actually be the only adult in the house.

Anon 19:43

Exactly. What a, what a great acknowledgement of that. You know, I think the other thing, Steph, is sometimes we as women are afraid to be alone. Can I just say it's not that bad? I, I kind of frankly love it.

Steph 20:00

No, I, I was speaking with another author about this and same thing, um, I was talking about, 'cause right now it's just me and my youngest. My oldest is in her second year of college. Um, my 14-year-old and I, we just do what we want. We're free. We, you know, our rhythms. Um, we, you know, we. Made a, a whimsy wall in the hallway and painted it yellow and hung Thrifted art from goodwill. That's weird all over it. We talk during movies if we want to. We sing too loud. We, we like the freedom there are some things I absolutely love about being alone and, um. And I am struggling to teach my young daughter that we don't need to have another boyfriend Vine to grab before we let go of the other one. We can just free fall a little and, uh, I know that lesson is hers to learn and, and I am not able to correct my own, uh, serial monogamous tendencies through her. She'll make her own mistakes. But, you know, that was just it for me. And that for me, it was going through all the therapy and writing my book is when I finally was like. Look at why I did it. I see how it happened. I see why it happened As a, as an undiagnosed neurodivergent woman. All I knew was that I had no idea what was going on. I didn't know anything. I, I needed to partner with someone That was the path to safety. I simply could not be on my own. I was not equipped. And, and so whether it's it's that learned helplessness or whether it's societal misogyny, uh, whatever it is, I do think so many of us really think that being alone is not, not it.

Anon 21:38

Right. I was equipped Steph, I, I could do the things. Yeah. But I had been taught from an early age. That a worthy woman is a wife,

Steph 21:48

and that must have been hell for you, like you were trapped in a prison because yes, you are one of the most competent, determined, intelligent, fierce women. I know. Thank you. And so different situation from me, like, fuck yeah, you could do all of it on your own. That must have felt like a prison to have all this strength and, and talent and these abilities. And to be told, no, no. Being a wife is what that must have been. Wow.

Anon 22:17

I don't even know how to respond to that, but it's true. Mm-hmm. I, I wish I had words of wisdom to respond to that, and as you know, I'm writing a memoir about that exact thing is what it was like to grow up with those expectations and to finally free myself, not only of a marriage, but to free myself of the expectations that were programmed into me for a lifetime. Yes. And how to break free and like your yellow wall. I have a pink bedroom.

Steph 22:44

Mm-hmm.

Anon 22:44

As a child, I didn't love pink. I love it now. Mm-hmm. Um, every time I walk into that bedroom and I see the pink walls and in my bathroom, I have a light floral wallpaper that I adore, I realize that I have built this life that I love, that I adore. Anytime someone comes into my home and says, oh, this house looks like you. What a great compliment that I've created this environment that so reflects who I am as a person, that people can see it when they walk in.

Steph 23:15

You're queendom. It's your queen Queendom. My

Anon 23:17

queen do. That's right.

Steph 23:18

And you built it. Mm-hmm. I, that is a beautiful compliment and I think that is the perfect way to close this episode. And I know that there are people listening who needed to hear it. Just that, um. Because I suspect there are people who aren't quite there yet who need that beacon from the other side, who need that lantern bearer to just pull them across the threshold and say, it's beautiful over here. You don't have to be scared.

Anon 23:42

That just gave me goosebumps.

Steph 23:43

Me

Anon 23:44

too, too. And it's beautiful.

Steph 23:45

Yeah.

Anon 23:45

And alone is beautiful too.

Steph 23:48

Alone is beautiful too. Oh my goodness. You, thank you. Thank you for this. Thank you for your wisdom and your generosity. And I, I cannot stop the goosebumps. This conversation has lit me up and I am, I'm grateful to know you.

Anon 24:02

Oh, thank you. Steph. You have been such, I will say, a leader and mentor, I watch you and you inspire me.

Steph 24:10

Thank you.

Anon 24:10

So I'm thankful for that.