I'd F*cking Date Me

Topics covered:

• Parachute relationships — what they are and why they matter (and why they sometimes crash-land hard)
• “Divorce doulas” — passing the torch, bearing the lantern, and why women are the safety net nobody talks about
• Unhealed men, therapy, and the resignation that keeps people stuck
• The “sorry about us” part — apologizing for your own existence in relationships
• Going from shame about your circumstances to “I’d fucking date me”
• Why the lessons keep coming until you actually learn them

Quotes:

• “I’d fucking date me.”
• “I just keep thinking of a line of women passing buckets of water down — that’s what we do for each other.”
• “I want us to celebrate men leaving unhappy marriages, much like I want them to go to therapy and figure out their shit. Because the result of them not doing that work is that here we go, into more relationships with yet another unhealed man.”
• “One of these days you’re just gonna be like — I’d like a clementine.”
• “You are not here to be a poster woman for the right way to feminist. You are a human being in pain.”

**The Writing Divorce 12-prompt series is accessible for paid subscribers here.

Dana Schwartz’s piece, “Support Group for Broken Hearts, Middle Aged Version,” on the Redacted Substack column. 

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Redacted Limited Podcast series. I'm your host, Steph Springer. Today I'm doing this episode a little backwards. We're going to jump straight into the conversation first, and then at the end, you'll hear Dana read her piece. It is worth the wait. Dana Schwartz is one of the very few, non-anonymous contributors to the redacted series. And honestly, that tracks because Dana is one of the most open, generous. Honest people that I know. She was my og lantern bearer when I filed for divorce in June of 2023. She is the one who taught me lantern bearer divorce, doula, and the term parachute relationship people say rebound, but parachute relationship felt so much more, nuanced to me. As a term for the relationship that you have after your divorce, and honestly, that's what this piece is about, more than an actual divorce. It's about what it feels like when you find yourself brokenhearted again post-divorce. Whether it was your parachute relationship that failed or another one. Um, I honestly don't know how I would've gotten through that season of my divorce without her. So having her here today feels. Like a full circle moment. I think you'll really enjoy our conversation. Her piece was such a breath of fresh air during our redacted series because for the most part, these stories are not funny. The topic isn't funny. This piece infuses humor and the absurd in into the grief and pain of post-divorce life. When you enter into relationships afterwards, and I'm just gonna plunge you right into our conversation. And then we'll get to her piece, which is called Support Group for broken Hearts, middle-aged version at the end. So, Dana, tell me how it felt to write this piece.

Dana 1:49

To me, writing this piece was really cathartic. 'cause it wasn't just about who I divorced, it was about my whole life after. Divorce and how you kind of have to start over and you don't necessarily plan on starting over several more times, but that's sometimes what happens. Um, and um, and it's really, it's really hard.

Steph 2:09

You were the one who taught me the term parachute relationship.

Dana 2:12

Yeah.

Steph 2:13

And that sometimes the failure of one's parachute relationship,

Dana 2:18

right.

Steph 2:18

Can, can be. Worse or re-traumatize or there's just something different about it.

Dana 2:26

There is, and, and it's also good. Like I'm really grateful for my parachute relationship in the ways that it helped me. Um, but it did also, I did crash and land hard, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There was that, but um, but yeah, like it, it serves a purpose. And I love how, I just keep thinking of the idea of like. When you're putting out a fire and each person is passing the bucket of water to the next, I just see as like a line of women just passing the buckets of water down. Like I heard parachute from another friend. Right. Like Right. I gave it to you. Like,

Steph 2:57

no, it reminds me of like a million years ago when someone gave me the girlfriend's guide to pregnancy. Oh yeah. And someone had given it to her and I remember who I gave it to and No, and I think, I mean, you really were. You were my divorce guru, and I know I have been that person for other people, and it really is a passing of torches. It's, and you really were a lantern bearer for me, and I know that there were other women who were lantern bearers for you and

Dana 3:26

percent

Steph 3:27

like I, I can't even emphasize to you enough how helpful and essential you were to me, like you reached out to me I probably had posted about it on Facebook, or I don't even remember.

Dana 3:38

Yeah.

Steph 3:38

And, and it was just like your, your warmth and your willingness to talk about it and the openness and the fact that we didn't have to filter our conversations, right. That there was a safe place for the rage and the grief and the bewilderment and all the processing. And so like for anyone listening context, like this is like two, two and a half almost. Oh my gosh. Like years ago. Wow. I know, uh, my, I filed for divorce in June, 2023. And so since then you have been. Like a lantern bearer for me, not just about the divorce part. The, the, the parenting stuff, the high conflict divorce navigation, and then the reentering of relationships. And so like, I don't know, I think that is kind of our job as women right now. Mm-hmm. And not that we don't have a million other jobs, but this is the important one.

Dana 4:31

Honestly, I like this job. Like I feel so grateful for the women who helped me. I called them my divorce doulas. Mm-hmm. And I was like, there should be, I mean, I know that probably is a job, but like, I don't need to be paid for it. Like, I feel like it's just, you're just giving back. You're giving forward or whatever that bullshit phrase is, because

Steph 4:48

yeah, paying

Dana 4:49

it forward, if you've got something like I, and, um, and I continue to, like, I, I kind of, I still consort with my original divorce doula, like on things, on custody, on parenting, and it's, you know, this is what, this is what women do for each other that we don't get in other areas of our lives. And so like, I wouldn't wanna be a dude. I just feel like that's a lonely place.

Steph 5:11

You're the second person who said that to me in a couple weeks. There are very few ways in which I am gonna say like, man. Hetero, cis, white privileged men are, they've really got it rough. Like you're not gonna hear that come outta my mouth very much. But I will say this, nobody is

Dana 5:27

seriously,

Steph 5:28

I'll say this, we're not giving

Dana 5:29

them much here.

Steph 5:30

Not much. But while I will give them this, nobody is standing up to give. The, uh, standing ovation to the middle-aged white dude who's following his bliss and living poor them, poor them, right? Like, that is the one way. We're like, oh, you're, you need to get out of a shitty marriage. I got you. Like, oh, congratulations. You're free. When we free ourselves from marriages that are not great, like I think we are a beautiful safety net for one another. Yeah. We are the divorce doulas. We have divorced parties. Mm-hmm. And that's one thing where I think we aren't necessarily like, go privileged man and live your best life. Right? Like, there's a narrative that says those guys are assholes. Right. So I, I feel for them in that one, one small area. This one. Just one, I

Dana 6:16

loved that divorce writing class you had, and I think I loved it most for the, for the zooms we had, I feel like there was a lot of wisdom shared in those.

Steph 6:23

Some women talked about how they didn't have any divorced friends. Yeah. And that was really isolating for them. Um, and that was one of, that's the reason, like it's the reason that I started the writing divorce workshop and the reason I started redacted, because I'm like, we don't have a place for these stories. But also Oh my gosh, no, you did teach me. Lantern, bearer and divorce, doula and parachute relationship. And there's one more thing that you taught me. I remember an unhealed man. That's what it was. Because as I'm saying how like people aren't necessarily cheering on midlife men who want to have happier relationships. I also think. Midlife men and men in general are not necessarily encouraged to go to therapy and like do the deep reflection and I'm like, my life is so interlaced with. Meditation and journaling and deep conversations with friends and therapy and more therapy and, and so like, that's the thing I want us to celebrate men leaving unhappy marriage, much like I want them to celebrate their own, go, go, go to therapy, figure out your shit. Because the result of them not doing that work is that here we go into more relationships with, as you said. Yet another unhealed man. So it's like

Dana 7:36

I'm just bumping into them left and right. Lemme tell you they're

Steph 7:39

oh, like, like you magnetize to them. But

Dana 7:41

that times I wonder, I wonder if I just have a bad picker, Stephanie. I'm just like, am I a bad picker? Like am I like, I think I'm picking a different thing and then. I'm not, or I'm picking a, just a variation, like a different kind of apple. Like it's a Macintosh or it's a honey crisp, I don't

Steph 7:56

know. Right? Like one of these days you're just gonna be like, I'd like a clementine. It's like the, what is the thing? The like the thing in five chapters, like I fall into a hole, it sucks. I don't like this hole. The next time I fall into the hole again, oh wait, I'm in a hole. I'm gonna climb out. And part three is like. I walk around the whole, oh, like you get to the last one where it's like I go down a different street is like, yeah.

Dana 8:19

I just don't even go there. Yeah,

Steph 8:20

yeah. No, no. But like, I don't know. I feel like we learn the lessons we need to learn over and over and over and over until we learn them. And that's why I am like, if, if I could have an affiliate link for therapy in general, I'd drop it right now. Like go get some of that. Because,

Dana 8:37

well, yeah, I think 'cause I think the unhealed man. Like, um, there, there isn't, there is an encouragement for them to do the work, but also there is like a little bit, I think of a, I don't, I mean, it's in the entitlement family, but it's like, it's too late or I don't need it. Or like,

Steph 8:54

you know. Yes. Like the resignation. Um,

Dana 8:57

right.

Steph 8:57

The

Dana 8:57

resignation. And it's hard. I think like once they, they might start therapy and then they're like, oh. This is like, I actually have to go back down those roads. I actually have to change patterns. I actually have to see and acknowledge faults and, you know, it's, it's a rocky complicated, you know, journey. And sometimes they'll start, right? 'cause they're, they're kind of be like, woke dudes, right? And then they're like, oh, no, no, no. So, right.

Steph 9:22

And, and that's the thing. It is rocky and not linear but I'm like. I had to really get clear on, I mean, I'm twice divorced, right? So I had to really get clear on patterns that I have brought along with me. Oh yeah. So that whenever I get into the next relationship, it's like not doing this. And some of those relationships were like you said, like, oh my God, am I just going to keep doing this over and over? For me, it was like. You haven't learned it? No. You're still not there. Still not there. Like I have had to practice the shit out of this, and that to me is the gift of being in therapy as you're navigating post-divorce relationships. Yeah, because it's like a critical opportunity to be like, you could have another relationship that isn't like this. And some of it's on them and some of it. Some of it's of it. Yes. It's on

Dana 10:10

me. Yeah. I've been noticing like what. What is what I was putting in there that wasn't working, you know, and some of it was this AP apologetic demeanor for my situation. You know, like, and self-deprecation and like, I would make these jokes in my last relationship, I'd say. To friends, to even to him, I'd say, aha. You know, I wouldn't date me. You know, like my, I can't get away for a night. You know? Like I have no backup anything. And it was like a joke, but it was a joke to protect myself because I felt, I really felt at that time, like maybe I wouldn't, you know, and who should and who would, and now. I'd fucking date me.

Steph 10:49

Yeah, you would. Okay. So there's, there's the growth right there, right?

Dana 10:53

Yes. Yeah. No, I, and I wouldn't have gotten that without the last rotten apple.

Steph 10:57

Totally. No, and I'm not like, I'm not like a silver lining chaser. 'cause I, you know, I like to wallow, honestly. No.

11:04

Yeah.

Dana 11:04

I don't like silver linings either, but I will.

Steph 11:06

Yeah. But, but, but that is one, and it's like, I, okay, so I do IFS therapy, which is a big part of my memoir and it's a big part of my, like getting divorce, recovering from divorce, all of it. But I have this. So IFS is like parts of your system, right? Like this.

Dana 11:22

I've been very fascinated, like reading a little bit about what you've said about it. So yes, continue

Steph 11:26

on. I'm obsessed. It's like we have these like exiled little parts of ourself. We have protectors and firefighters. Like I've got this fire goddess, like someone's gonna mess with my kid, like. Fire goddess. Mm-hmm. I've got like a lazy daydreamer, but I have this part that I realized is coming up like constantly so much that I didn't even notice her. And I call her the, sorry about, sorry about us part. Like, hey, sorry, sorry about us. Like I know, I know we're a lot, uh, sorry about us, all of us, me, my high maintenance family, my neurodivergent girls and myself. Sorry about us. Right. The apologies. I, that's

Dana 12:01

exactly the name of what I'm talking about here.

Steph 12:03

Uhhuh, and I was talking about it with my teenager too, as we were talking about, you know, her own relationships. And I, and there is like, I swear to God, we've passed it down through the fricking umbilical cord here. This need to apologize to male partners for being who we are.

Dana 12:21

Yeah.

Steph 12:22

Um, no thank you. I'm not doing that. Like yeah, I date me, I'm my cup of tea. I'm not yours. Like, go drink some other shit ass tea because like, I'm not apologizing for this tea. This tea is awesome.

Dana 12:36

It's crazy to me that I'm 50 and I had to get to, well, I guess 49 50 to really be like, that's, to understand that, to really like. Breathe it and like live it and, and believe it. Like I wasn't believing it. I knew intellectually like I'm a, I am who I am. I, I'm, I like me, you know, but I was still putting out this like, sorry, me about me and us mm-hmm. Vibe and I'm not doing that anymore. Like, this is it, this is what I got. You're either in like for all of it or you're out.

Steph 13:08

Totally. And that is huge, right? Because Yeah, same. I like, I would never have given my best friend the advice like, you know what? You should try being smaller and apologizing for yourself. I feel like that's the right path for you. I know, no, like we know these things, but there's knowing it and then there's like, oh, I feel like maybe if I had like an MRI, if my brain, the gray matter would be shifting in different like, like I think maybe it's finally sinking in. Yes.

Dana 13:33

Because there's so much. I know intellectually I'm a, I'm a strong feminist woman. Like I'm not apologizing for myself in a lot of ways. But there was this piece of me that was like, yeah, this isn't ideal. Why would anyone want this 40 plus or almost 50-year-old woman with all of this baggage like. I mean, society doesn't help us like in that realm.

Steph 13:51

Hell no.

Dana 13:52

But

Steph 13:52

no, and especially when, like you said, you're doing, I'm like, I don't have a backup. It's, it's like there's solo parenting and there's single parenting, and then there's solo single parenting, which is its own, you know? Um, yeah, it's, it's wild. But like. I, I loved your essay because it wasn't necessarily about like your divorce. It's like this is all part of it. So all of

Dana 14:18

it. Yeah.

Steph 14:18

Um, okay. We

Dana 14:19

all end up in that waiting in that support group. Waiting room.

Steph 14:22

Yes., Dana Schwartz is here to read her amazing piece that was featured in the Redacted Substack column.

Dana 14:29

Support group for Broken hearts, middle aged version. Hello everyone and welcome. I know you don't wanna be here. You can't go back in time, so grab some coffee, a donut, or one of the pot gummies that Kristen brought. Yep, she's back. Hi, Kristen. Sorry to see you, but also thanks for sharing these with the group. They are medical grade and dosage recommendations are on the index card next to the creamers, so make sure you read those before partaking. Now let's get started. We all know the drill. No need to say why we're here. Again, this is not your first rodeo and no, I'm not just looking at you, Kristen. We're all here because someone broke our hearts, and even though we've gotten through it before, and we will undoubtedly get through it again, it's probably a good idea to go over the basics. For some of you, it may have been a while since you sat in these cold metal folding chairs, but please remember you earned the spot, not because you deserve to be in grief yet again, but because you chose to take a risk and open your heart. You believed in hope. You believed in love. Okay. Okay. I can practically hear the eye rolls maybe too soon for positivity, but I am sorry about the chairs. Budgets are tight. However, there was a sale on pillows at home goods, so if you need some lumbar support, grab one by the water cooler. Let's start again. You're here and I'm sorry you've already cried. Buckets, fountains, tidal waves. Your eyes and body feel dried out like a husk, and you think, okay, that's enough of that. Then a photo pops up on your phone or a song plays and you're flooded again. So let's review the necessary supplies top of the list. And while this might seem obvious, I'm just gonna say it. Tissues, buy them in bulk. Leave them in your pockets. You have enough to deal with. So don't be forced to use your sleeve, which is gross, but also it means more laundry. Hey, don't look scandalized. We've all done it. I'm thinking about your wellbeing. Remember, this is a non-judgment zone. Now let's talk about clothes. Comfortable. Sweaters, preferably cardigans are going to be crucial here, even in summer or warmer locations because a memory will flash in your mind and you will suddenly feel chilled to the bone. And then in quick succession, hot as fuck. This is obviously perimenopause, but when you factor in heartbreak, it's like double the horror. Not only are you having hot flashes, but cold ones too, not fun. Be prepared. Layers are best. Next is appetite. Some of you are having trouble eating, others can't stop. Don't judge. Nobody picks this part of the journey. Grief does different things to people. For those unable to eat because of constant low to middle grade anxiety and nausea, you need to figure out what you can stomach. Do not let heartbreak steal an ounce of precious muscle tone that you earned lifting weights, and we know how important that is at our age. You may have already lost some weight. But try to remember, skinny is only a patriarchal goal. They want you weakened, frail, endlessly striving hungry, but you need to be strong. Put some protein powder in your coffee and figure out what you can stomach. Soft, friendly comfort foods may be best for those of you can't stop eating. Fuck it, who cares? We are not a goddamn Weight Watchers. Do your best to nourish yourself in ways that make you feel good, but not uncomfortable. We're all uncomfortable enough. Am I right? I'm not talking about the chairs. Monica, I heard you snort. Oh, but I do like seeing some smiles. Dark humor is on the agenda for after break. It's one of my favorite sections, but we need to get through essentials first now for the biggie sleep, or lack thereof by the amount of eye bags I see in this group. It's clearly an issue for many of us. And quick sidebar, I'm not talking about the natural aging process of losing collagen and middle age that we are brainwashed into thinking is disgusting. More on this in the next section on vanity, but right now I am focusing on the burden of losing sleep over heartbreak. I know for some of you, this is the worst part. You slog through a day of work and kids and home maintenance and maybe volunteer work and whatever else you do for your physical and mental load. And then all you want is to collapse into bed and sink into oblivion. But either you can't close your eyes or when you do, you see terrible things or happy memories, which have transformed into an unfortunate new category called terribly painful things. This is a toughie, but like nourishment and maintaining muscle tone. You need sleep for vitality and health. Call your general practitioner and tell her what's going on. Be diligent in your research, however, and make a note if you want something non-addictive or natural. Be aware of doctors immediately offering you an SSRI, which happens more than you'd think to middle-aged women, even without heartbreak attached. These meds can be lifesavers when needed, but you get to choose what makes the most sense for you at this difficult time. Now, let's get to vanity. It is nothing to be ashamed of, and let's just call it self-esteem. Instead, vanity is what capitalism tells us. Women is bad while simultaneously trying to sell us thousand dollar face serums made of snail feces and knock off ozempic. Listen, you're here for a reason. You are brokenhearted. This has a direct scientific ish correlation with plummeting levels of self-worth and self-esteem. As you know from the mantra, we say at the close of every meeting, you are still the same incredible, amazing women you were before your latest breakup. But you may still feel like shit. Side effects of heartbreak are no joke. They 1000% fuck with your self image in both external and internal ways. But ultimately you get to decide what makes you look and feel better. Wearing sweatpants and no makeup and always being comfy. Maybe the answer, dressing up and doing your hair so you can go out and face the world with tissues in your pockets. Please, maybe someone else's answer. They may both be your answers, but on different days or hours of the same day. Don't judge yourself or anyone in this room. There is no right way. Do you wanna get your hair cut or colored? Cool. Just don't do anything so drastic. You may regret it immediately. Rash decisions do tend to happen during these hard times. Just remember, you cannot uncut hair, but it will grow back. Tell your hairdresser you're in heartache. The moment you sit down in the chair. A professional will know how to proceed with caution. Pro tip Ha, no pun intended. Manicures are an easy, non-permanent way to feel put together when everything else feels crummy and done colored. Also, I recommend spa pedicures, and don't forget to turn on the massage chair, wear sunglasses or close your eyes to prevent unnecessary eye contact or conversation if you're feeling antisocial or blame your red weepy. Eyes on allergies. Better yet, blame it on the current political landscape. There are plenty of other options than telling everyone and their grandma nail tech neighbor your story. You get to choose who deserves to know, be discerning or not. Up to you. Now, some of you may wanna take things a step further. Again, be mindful of irreversible and or pricey procedures, but if you always wanna try Botox, I am not going to dissuade you. Those painfully deep worry, stress rage lines between your eyes, there's an injectable for that. Important caveat as stated earlier, regarding putting new substances into one's body. Do your research about procedures and make informed thoughtful decisions. And also for the love of God, if she exists, please go to a well reviewed and reputable practitioner. There are some Lulus out there who will put who knows what into those syringes. Monica, I see your hand. I know this may seem to go against what I said earlier about capitalism and patriarchy, but also I believe in your autonomy and free will. You have already been broken enough to walk back into this room and sit on these chairs. Nobody gets to judge how you deal with it. You are not here to be a poster woman for the right way to feminist. You are a human being in pain. You have full autonomy on how to deal with said pain. Before we break for lunch, I want to remind you all of something you already know, and it would be super annoying for anyone outside this room to tell you. But because I have been there, and because I am here currently, I'm also telling myself, one day you'll be able to breathe again without feeling a stitch in your throat. You'll eat that croissant or stop stress eating all those croissants. You'll hear a certain song and choose to skip it or listen to it without breaking down into full throttle body sobs. We all know from experience that the process of grief and heartbreak is not linear. There will be ups and downs, highs and lows, zigzags, spikes, and plummets. This is not two dimensional. We're talking serious fourth dimension territory. However, if that is too AP physics for you right now, which is totally fair, brain fog is real. Then let's just say this journey may be the most nonsensical line graph you can imagine. But there will come a point when you stop marking down your progress or apparent lack thereof, you will stop counting days, noticing milestones and avoiding certain bars, restaurants, parks, theaters, streets, stores, et cetera. One day you won't show up to the group, not because the chairs are awful, you know, we're never getting new ones. But because you'll know what to do next and whatever that is, it is entirely up to you.