The "Now What?" Era: Unbecoming a Wife

SHOW NOTES:

In this episode, we cover:

• How Cindy went from ghostwriter and editor to finding her own voice — and launching The Mother Lode on Substack
• The role Maggie Smith's You Could Make This Place Beautiful played as a lantern for both of us during our divorces
• MDMA therapy, IFS therapy, and the "good girl" conditioning that keeps women trapped in marriages long past their expiration date
• Why couples therapy can actually harm women — particularly when covert abuse or personality disorders are involved
• The Divorce Diary series: the financial reality of divorce no one talks about, including legal fees, spousal support, and child support
• How divorce laws protect women in theory but rarely in practice
• Post-separation abuse and why sharing children means you can never truly divorce some people
• The real cost of stepping back from your career during marriage — and who pays for it after divorce
• The case for rethinking marriage entirely: communal living, separate households, and what partnership could look like outside the traditional script
• Esther Perel, Emily Nagoski, and whether domesticity is simply the death of desire
• Where we both are, three years out — and embracing "now what?" when the gauntlet is finally behind you

Resources mentioned:

• You Could Make This Place Beautiful by Maggie Smith
• This American Ex-Wife by Lyz Lenz
• Fair Play by Eve Rodsky
• The Ambition Penalty by Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez
• Come As You Are and Come Together by Emily Nagoski
• Esther Perel's work on desire and domesticity
• Mad Wife by Kate Hamilton (pseudonym)
• The Mother Lode on Substack: cindyditiberio.substack.com

Transcript

0:00

Welcome back to the Redacted limited series podcast. I'm your host, Steph Springer. We've been sharing anonymous essays and a few non-anonymous essays from women who contributed stories to the Redacted Substack column. They've been reading their pieces on the air, and then we've been having some conversations about different topics related to their stories. But today, I have something a little bit different. Today's guest is Cindy DiTiberio. Cindy is the writer of the Motherlode: Essays and Interviews on Motherhood, Marriage, and Divorce, and a New York Times bestselling collaborator and editor who has worked in publishing for over 20 years. Cindy's writing has appeared in The Lily, Scary Mommy, Yahoo Life, Literary Mama, MOTHER Magazine, and more. She's been featured on Cup of Jo, was the inaugural guest for the Chamber of Mothers Book Club, collaborated with Eve Rodsky, the Fair Play Policy Institute, and Aaron Thomas on The Fair Play Guide to Prenups and Postnups, and is a frequent podcast guest. Cindy is a dynamo. And I have to be honest with you before we dive in. This episode covers a lot of ground, and some of it might surprise you. We talk about divorce, obviously, marriage as an institution, couples therapy, post-separation abuse, the financial trap that keeps women stuck, and whether the legal system actually protects women the way we've been told it does. And I want to be upfront. I am not anti-marriage. I believe in love and partnership and commitment, but I also believe that we cannot keep pretending the current system is working for women. Cindy brings a sharp, research-backed, deeply personal lens to the question of who marriage is actually serving, and it is a conversation I think every woman deserves to have, whether you're happily married, quietly miserable, or somewhere in between. So come with an open mind. If you hear something that makes you cringe, I urge you to stick around. You don't have to agree with everything. I'm still getting my bearings on certain issues, and some of this stuff I'm not sure how I feel yet. But I promise this conversation will make you think. And Cindy and I are diving right into the conversation. We have so much to say, we are skipping the preamble, so get ready for it. All right. Welcome to the podcast, to Cindy DiTiberio. Cindy, I am so thrilled to have you here. We have been eagerly anticipating finally connecting because we have so much overlap in the work we're doing. And so Cindy and I were thrilled to be able to sit down and talk, welcome to the podcast, Cindy First of all, I think that, I think the first time I ever saw your name or heard of you was in the Literary Mama days. Um- Ah, yes. 'Cause like- Yeah what a beloved publication. It was. And that was... So those were in the early days of when I was trying to learn to trust myself as a writer on my own. Um, because, you know- Mm-hmm I'd been on the other side, as like an editor or a ghostwriter writing other people's content obviously. And, um, and it was... So I was in that transition period where the pandemic had happened, so I finished, my gosh, I think it was like maybe my 11th book I had ghostwritten, and I finished it in May of 2020, and it was so brutal because, you know, during that time I had a kindergartner and a third-grader, and they never left. And writing is just not something you can do in like tiny chunks. I- or at least writing someone else's book. I found it so hard to be swapping back and forth between having to manage their school or what have you. So I hit pause on my ghostwriting career because of the pandemic, and then it was like I started writing in my own voice and being like, "Well gosh, maybe I can like have my own career." But I wasn't really sure. And so Literary Mama was... They had... I don't even remember. Now I'm trying to... Actually, I'm trying to remember how I even got connected with the fact that there was the role of publisher open. Um, but I at the time wasn't working and so I was like, "Well, I have publishing experience," and so I kind of just on a whim decided to apply for it, and they chose me, and it was such a, such a great group of women and such a great honor to get to help, you know, kind of bring some of these, these write- stories to light. Um, I got to interview Maggie Smith. Yeah. Which was amazing. And I remember it was w- for, um, You Can Make This Place Beautiful. And I remember I just wanted to get a co- w- as soon as I read the description of her book I was like, "I need that book immediately." Mm-hmm. Like, I cannot wait until it gets published. So I was like, "Well, I will interview her for Literary Mama, and then I will get a galley," and I needed that galley at that time. Like, it was her... I read that right when I was doing some of my MDMA therapy, which was very- Mm very, um, pivotal to me leaving my marriage. Like, I couldn't have left without MDMA therapy, um, because I was just too attached to being a good girl- Yeah um, to leave my marriage. And MDMA therapy- Oh, God Get underneath that conditioning to what I truly wanted. Um, and so yeah, Literary Mama, like, allowed me to read that book at a time in my life when I really needed to read it, besides the fact it was so lovely to get to, like, talk with her and get to know- No, Maggie, Maggie's amazing. Um, she was in the anthology that I published, it was over a decade ago, about postpartum depression. We had an essay contest, and her essay won first place, and it was the first essay she had ever written because she's a poet. And so- No way. Yeah. So I've, like, watched her career from- Yes from publishing her work in 2015. And so I... Oh, I've just got goosebumps. I got to see her in Denver when she was here for, um, for a book event, and, and I told her, and actually I think I'd messaged her, I read You Can Make This Place Beautiful. I read the chapter called The Last Family Vacation, oh, I'm gonna cry, while I was on my last family vacation, and I messaged her when I got back, because everything exploded just right after that, and I said, "Your book is the only thing I can tolerate reading right now." You know? So- Yes, yes. And it's such a good- I think it was a lighthouse for many of us it's, yes, such a companion. I mean, like, first of all, she puts into words the w- like, you know, she just encapsulates that feeling of uncertainty and wanting to leave, and, uh, I mean, it's so beautiful. My, my experience with the book is literally I finished that book- And an earthquake hit. I am not even kidding. I do live in California. But I was- You can't make this shit up. Yeah, you can't make it up. And I was like, "Yep, that's how it feels," 'cause literally, like, everything is about to, like, rupture. Mm-hmm. But it was just such a beautiful thing, 'cause, like, that book carried me through, gave me confidence, it gave me permission, it gave me just, like, a way forward. Yeah, a light in a, in such a dark time, and it was, like, almost like a Bible to cling to, um, of like, "Other women do this. It's okay to do this. I will be okay." Um- Yes thank you for that book. And I think that I always use the word lantern bearer. It comes up in so many conversations, 'cause I had my... divorce doula. She was mine, and someone else was hers, and I'm someone else's, and the pr- Yes like passing this, this light along to each other, and I feel like that's really the only way women survive divorce, whether we chose it or it was chosen for us. And, like, it, it, it's... And I think this is where you and I have so much common ground, because you'll have to tell us a- about the, the origin of The Motherlode before you knew it was going to be about what it currently is about, but, but what you do now is, is that witnessing, that divorce doula-ing, that being the lantern bearer for women, and that to me is so inspiring, because I'm sure that both of us have helped people find their way out of marriages that they, it was time for them to leave. Um- Yeah, yeah and that, that's one of those things that it makes everything worth it, you know? It d- it does, even as, you know, um, it's hard to put such vulnerable writing out there, as I'm sure you feel, too. But yeah, I've had so many women reach out and just be like, "Oh my gosh, your writing helped me. Okay, today I told him I wanna separate," or like these confessions of like, yeah, it was like my words helped them build that strength- Yep just like Maggie did for me. 'Cause we need that. I don't think it, uh, you know, we, we don't just wake up one day and feel like we're able to leave. There's such a, there's such stigma with it. There's so much conditioning that makes- Still us think we just keep, gotta keep working, gotta keep working, gotta keep working. So you need people to, like, literally hold your hand along the way, whether metaphorically, online, whatever it is, to get to the point where you can finally have that really hard conversation. Yeah. I, I completely agree, and so much of what you've said, even just the, the needing to do the MDMA therapy to release that I'm a good girl. I mean, it's like- M- I'm raising my hand, and I cannot even imagine how many hundreds, thousands, of women are like, stayed because I'm a, I'm a good girl, I'm a good wife, I'm a good mother, I'm doing what I'm supposed to. It is still this cage that- Yeah keeps us trapped, and we don't realize that the lid is open and we actually can climb out of it. Because what would that mean? Like, complete annihilation of the values we grew up with, or what would people think? I mean, it is so scary. And like you said with the trying and trying, I loved the piece that you published about couples counseling being about saving the marriage rather than saving the people in it. And, like, that just shifted... I mean, speaking of earthquakes, it was like the land underneath me shifted. 'Cause, like, I'm I love therapy, and couples counseling can be amazing. And It can keep you in that cage. So talk about, talk about your work with Motherlode. I mean, there's just so much to say. You're doing such important stuff. Thank you. Yeah, no, I mean, uh, The Motherlode started at kind of, like, around the time I was working at Literary Mama, when I was trying to be like, "Do I have something to say? Am I a writer in my own right? What would I say? What would people... Would people care?" And so I started The Motherlode kind of, like, as a, like, test run. I had... First of all, originally I was trying to get published other places, and I was published in, like, Scary Mommy, and The Lily, and things like that. But it takes so long, and you get so many rejections- I know. It's awful that it's exhausting, and you have so much to say. And so one of the gifts of Substack is, like, you decide what you publish, how frequently you publish. It's a great, I think, trial ground. Not unlike blogs, but you know, it's a slightly different formula. Um, and so originally I was writing about motherhood, and you know, why... You know, this was also November of 2021, so we were still kinda, like, in- Yeah, we were pandemic mothering- Mm-hmm which was the worst. The worst. Um, it was the worst. And so it was, like, kinda taking a look at, like, even motherhood in the before times was really pretty impossible- but we made it all seem like normal. Right. And so then when it got, like, amped up, we were like, "We... It a- actually it's always been a bad deal." Mm-hmm, yes. And so that was kind of some of it, is, like, trying to put into words, like, actually this whole motherhood gig is total bonkers, and I can't believe we just do it as if it's tolerable. This is not. You know? So I really kinda started with wanting to write about, like, the hard parts of motherhood, and, like, why is it so hard, and what could we do? And then I started to realize that a lot of the constraints were also about my marriage, and, like, that his life was very different than mine. Like, that a father had such a different role than a mother, and why was that? And dealing with some of that frustration. And I think some of that, you know, so often we write our way through things. And, um, so I was writing about marriage and my frustrations with it, because it turns out my marriage was ending. I just didn't quite realize that yet. And so, um, then I end up getting divorced, and then The Motherlode really kind of, like- Found its niche because there were s- there were not a lot of people writing about divorce at that time. And yet there were so many of us who were, like, getting ready to get divorced in the middle of the pandemic because that, if that just didn't bring to light all the ways your marriage wasn't working- Right I don't know what will. And so, um, since then I've, uh, you know, I wrote my way through my divorce process and then have really, like, I've also realized how little information there is about the nuts and bolts and nitty-gritty of people's divorces. And, like, I'm just someone who wants to know. Like, wait, how much did you spend on legal fees? And wait, do you get child support? And how much? And all these things. And so then I started the Divorce Diary series, which is anonymous, um, interviews with women about their divorces and all, all of the ins and outs. What caused it, what was the hardest part of the n- negotiations and yes, like the financial aspects. How much did you spend in legal fees? What do you get in child support, if you do? Do you pay spousal support? All of that stuff. And, um, so yeah, that's kind of, it, so it's been kind of this receptacle of other women's stories too. And, um, but yeah, and I, w- couples therapy was rough in my own. I mean, we were in couples therapy towards the end, um, but I, I'm just like, oh my gosh, what a, um, waste of time and money honestly. And I felt like I was further harmed in couples therapy, um, because what was going on was not okay. Um, she wasn't calling him out on stuff. I was feeling in my body stuff that was going on, and he was gaslighting me. It was horrible. Like, I honestly cannot believe that I sat on that couch next to him for those nine months. And how much money did we spend on that? A lot. Towards the end- Mm-hmm we were even doing, like, session and a halves. Oh my gosh. Anyway, so, and again, I'm not sure that it's, like, that couples therapist's fault. I think the whole premise is kinda flawed because it is- Right it's, like, designed to h- to preserve the relationship. And then my other big point is that I don't think a lot of marriage th- therapists are trained to be able to identify some of these more covert signs of abuse. So- Correct. Personality disorders. Yes. Um, it, it's like there should be a line. One of the, one of the pieces in the anthology, it's, like, couples therapist number eight, finally the one who, like, like, breaks the fourth wall and is like, "You need to leave." Like- Yes why is there not more of that? Especially after a point, like, don't you feel like they should be like, "Listen, you guys, I've heard this," like... Or I don't know. I, I, it's- Yeah it, it's confounding. It is. It's really problematic. And again, we've, like, there's a whole industry that's just, you know, books and lectures and courses and therapists that are all surrounding this institution of saving this institution that my, so much of my writing now has moved into, like, why are we getting married in the first place? Well, Liz Lentz, you know, with This American Ex-Wife- Yes I mean, that, that, I feel like that one is a must read even if you aren't- I do too considering divorce or it's just- Yeah like, let's take a step back here and really look at this institution. I mean, there are so... Fair Play. I mean, there are so many different... Like, we need a reality check here. Who- Yeah who is this benefiting? And who- Yeah is making... Who has thrown herself on the pyre, you know? No, and my, and one of the areas that I think I will continue to write about, and I've, like, just barely scratched the surface, is that, you know, sometimes... 'Cause I don't know if you've seen on Substack that m- maybe we're talking about how marriage is bad too much, and so then there was this, like, reaction to the writing on how marriage is bad or h- and- I know. so then it was like in defense of marriage, in defense of husbands. And I was like, "Good Lord, we do not need this shit." Right. Um, anyway, but through that they're like, "Well, actually divorce laws are very protective of women." 'Cause I'm like, "Why are we getting married?" Like, this is not good. And so someone was like, "Well, actually the divorce laws are, like they protect mar- the women in that situation, like if they, you know, sacrifice their career." And I'm like, no, no, they do, but you have to be able to get that. So my, one of the things that I talk about is that, like for example, spousal support. You can't get spousal support unless you go to court and they order it. Like, most men are like, "I'm not paying spousal support. Are you kidding me? That's my money. That was your choice to take a step back," and they don't wanna pay it. And you can't get it unless you're willing to go all the way to court, which everyone advises against because it's expensive and you can't control it and all of that. So like, all of these laws that say 50% of assets and spousal support, they're in theory, they're not actually in practice. Furthermore, my other point on divorce, and I don't know how you feel about this as a divorced woman, divorce is literally just a piece of paper, and if your ex does not wanna comply, you have no recourse except, again, to take him to court. More money- Totally more time. Totally. Months and months and months- Yeah and months. So I'm sorry, but all of divorce is a sham. It's horrible. Like- No, I agree it's just all- And this is, I'm so glad you brought this up- All of it sucks because the thing that, the thing that... I loved my attorney. Mm-hmm. I loved my attorney. Um- And I was like, "Wait, who, is there like a referee? Like, should family therapy be manda- like, what the fuck is..." I'm like, I cannot tell you how many times I was like, "Who is looking out for us?" Yeah, yeah. "Who's in charge here?" I would be like, "I- am I dreaming this? All this horrible shit is happening to me and my children, and nobody is doing a goddamn thing about it." Yes. Nobody. Yes. What, what, there is m- there has got to be more than making the columns match and the hours match and sign this and mediation and all the things. It was like the whole thing was so fucked, and there was nobody managing it. No. And, and I'm, I'm a fighter, and I have a healthy grasp of language, so I was able to advocate for myself in ways that I know damn well other women are just like, "I just can't." Yeah. "I don't even know where to begin." Yeah, yeah. That is so wrong. So what, what are we even... Where do we even begin? I don't- And I think that's why I started Redacted, because I was like- Yeah nobody can write stories about this without tremendous fallout, whether it's literally baked into their agreement that you can't trash talk your former spouse, or whether it's just I've got kids. Yeah. So I was like, "Give me, lay it on me." Yes. "Give me all your stories." No, I think that's why, like, you and I connect so much, 'cause yeah, I mean, my, I have a post and I, it's a series, and I've only written one, 'cause this is how it goes, and it's called like Swallower of Stories. Yeah. Like, I have, the things I could write, the things I could write. And will I? Probably not, because it's not safe for me to do so. Yeah. But the stories I could tell are insane. I know. You could not make them up if you tried. Mm-hmm. Everyone I actually tell the actual story to, their jaw is on the floor, and I'm like, "Mm-hmm, yep." And I know I am not, I'm not an anomaly. This is- Mm-hmm for a certain kind of divorce, this is how it goes. So I have, now thank God for women like Kate Hamilton, which is a pseudonym, so she wrote the memoir Mad Wife, and I interviewed her, and she actually, I, did a guest post on, on The Motherload called, uh, About Post-Separation Abuse. Mm. Because this is a very, very real thing, and I think- Yes you know, that, um, you just, you, especially if you have kids with this person, you can't actually escape them. They always will have a way to get at you. And also, sadly, like I look back and if, I don't know how to avoid it, but- I feel like I am too financially entangled with my ex, and so he has control over me because of our financial entanglement. And, um, again, when you have kids, and I still have, you know, I have a 12-year-old, so I still, still got a number more years, you're kinda stuck being financially entangled in some ways. But wow, it's really difficult when you cannot truly divorce your ex when you share children. You just cannot. You're stuck with them. So, um, yeah, it's a really flawed system, which is why for me I'm like, "This is why we just have to get rid of marriage," because, like, divorce is such a disaster. And honestly, I don't think marriage is serving anyone a- but the men. I really don't. Like, we know who it's serving. The research is out there. Yes, yes, okay, here are the people who are like, "No, no, if you're in a happy marriage, you're healthier and blah blah blah." Okay, sure, I believe that, but what percentage of marriages are happy marriages, you know? and I do think a lot, you know, healthy relationships are important. I just think, you know, are, should we be legally entangled? It makes it so hard to leave, not just, like, psychologically to leave a marriage is harder than leaving a relationship, but, like, the legal aspect. So, you know, I don't know what the solution is, whether it's... I do think we've all learned that the nuclear family is not enough to... I- it's not a great, it's not a great model, so let's, like, look at communal living. And so yes, maybe if you wanna have kids, you have kids with someone, but it's within a network where it's not just the two of you. You also have some aunties and uncles, and we live in this communal space, and so if that relationship ends, there's more support. I don't know what it looks like. No. I just know what is currently in place is not- Doesn't work serving women. No, it doesn't work, And here's the thing, almost all of my best friends have been divorced at least once. Some of us have been divorced twice, okay? Yeah, yeah. Like, the, the divorces among us are incr- I'm, I'm lucky because, you know, when I teach the writing divorce workshops, there's always a person or two who's like, "I don't know any divorced people. Divorce is super stigmatized. I live in this type of community." So I'm lucky, but I can't tell you how many of us are like- W- why do we have to live like this? And now I am lucky. I am in the house. I stayed in the house. It has space. I love it. It has a yard. It is also broken in a million fucking ways that did not break while I was married, and I've had to deal with this. My best friend is a single mom. She lives right across the street. We live on a cul-de-sac. One might say, "Why don't we just live in one house?" Well, do you wanna share a refrigerator with another adult? Because I don't. So where, where is the communal living? Where is- Mm-hmm where are the opportunities for women to live together without living together, right? Yes. Yeah. And, and it is impossible to articulate how alone you are after you get a divorce in your parenting, in your everything. You have support people if you're lucky. Some of us, I, I have wonderful parents. They don't live here, but- Mm I'm supported and loved, but there is nobody in this boat but me. Yeah. And when you are a single mom post-divorce, you are acutely aware that there is nobody in your boat, you know? Yeah, yeah. And especially for those of us who didn't leave until we could financially or for whatever safety, for whatever reason. So many of us could not leave until we had... I mean, it just, it I, I, I could go on about this all day, but it breaks my heart there are not enough options for women before divorce or after divorce. No, I know. I've even thought about this idea of, like, i- if somebody wants to, like, fund this, there needs to be, like, halfway houses for women leaving marriages, where, like, they can stay for six months to a year, and it's your transition space, and it's subsidized. Because here's the other piece that I think financially it's so hard to leave when, if you do not, if you're not a W-2 employee- Right and you need to qualify for a, a rental, I'm sorry, that's not happening. So- No, I couldn't qualify to- It is very difficult even though I'm the only one paying this mortgage- Mm-hmm I can't have... I can't refinance bec- a- again, I'm not a W-2 employee. Yeah. I'm self-employed, and I was part-time employed until the divorce- Yeah when I had to be full-time. I've spent the last three years trying to build a career from the ground up. I'm not gonna qualify for shit. Yeah. So, the... a- and you're right and, and yes, there, there are places for women who are experiencing violence, right? Right. But what about those of us who just need to get our feet under us? Yes. Miranda Gates, where are you? We need somebody- Yes with a shitload of money- Yes to make this stuff happen. No, 'cause it is, it's a real issue. Obviously, listen, housing for all of us is, housing is just a general issue. But in particular, this is just, like, for me, I'm like, I don't understand how anyone can leave because of that, just that practical where will I qualify to move? Like, literally. Unless you have parents who are willing to step in or someone who's gonna sign the lease for you, it's, it... or co-sign it with you, it's, it's really a practical issue that there is no solution to, and then leaves women in mar- leave women in marriages that- Yes just hurt them because they just cannot figure out the practicalities of leaving. Right. And then I have women that I've been working with who th- you know, they're in their 60s, and, and their marriage falls apart, and they're like i- everything that they have built their lives on for decades has just crumbled, just gone up in smoke, and what are they left with, right? Right. And it's not just I don't know what to do when the, when the garbage disposal stops working, and how am I supposed to... Like, I've never done this, I've never done that. But- I, I don't know. We are, we are setting women up for a fall- Yeah emotionally, physically, financially. Financially. Financially is the really big piece, I think, for me, is because, and because the nuclear family really does almost require someone to take a step back in their career because there's just- Absolutely and we all know who that is, and so the earnings go down. I've just published this week, uh, a, um, a post about Stephanie O'Connell's new book called The Ambition Penalty- Mm-hmm where she's talking about, like, all of the bias and stigma that we still hit as women in the workplace. And she has so many... And I just picked the juiciest bits, which is like, you know, when you become a mother, your pay slashes in half, and, like, never recovers. You know, whereas fathers, it goes up. And then the number, this stat was, killed me. It's that married men can work 20 to 30% more hours than single men, and we know why that is, don't we? Oh my God. So that's not even men and women, that's just married men versus single men. W- their wives allow them to work more hours to accumulate more pay, to get more promotions, to get more pay down the road. This is why I'm like any woman who gets divorced should get some form of spousal support because that, that, they enabled that career to take off the way they did. There's no way, even, even if they kept working the whole time, the data says that if you have a wife, you're able to work more. Like, whether she works full-time or not, like, that is a benefit to your career- Mm that should not go unnoticed, you know? I agree. Um, uh, gosh, a year, year and a half ago, I hired, a, a family advisor. She's like my assistant, but not, not my wor- I have a b- a business assistant now too, 'cause I need help, man. But this is the one who, um, put, synchronizes the c- the sports calendar, and makes the dentist appointment, and calls the pest people, blah, blah, blah. I told my best friend about this, and she's like, "Oh my God, you have a wife." Mm-hmm. Yep. That's it. That's it. And it really is a financial benefit, besides the fact it also just benefits your... But, but again, for me, and that's when, like- The people who say, "Well, marriage is beneficial, uh, for everyone's health." I'm like, but who's really? Like, let's talk about who's benefiting here. And I just don't know that many... A- again, financially, listen, our s- entire capitalist system requires a dual income household. That's the issue, right? Like, this is where I'm like, I don't know what the solution is other than marriage. Like, our whole system is just broken. Which- Yeah all we have to do is look at the headlines and we can see that, right? Like- Ab- absolutely it's broken. Can we just hit the, like, refresh button and start all over here in America? 'Cause whatever is happening right now on every level isn't working. Right. Marriage included, you know? And- Absolutely um, it's b- it's broken. And so I think what we can do as women right now is at least extract ourselves from marriages that aren't benefiting us psychically, socially, spiritually, financially. Like, yeah, listen, my... I was married to a very high earner, so yes, that benefited me. Now, um, you know, we were married 14 years. He thinks he would have been as successful as he is whether I was there or not. Could be true, I don't know. That's his- That we'll never know, won't we? Mm-hmm. We'll never know because guess what? You did marry me. So I, you know, um- I'm curious how much you charged for the use of your, of your womb and- Yes. Oh my you know, the... I know. I know. Yeah, like- My breast milk was, you know, that was very, that was very expensive. That was itemized on the... No, it wasn't. Yes. But yeah. Yes. Um, no, you, you are exactly correct, um, on all of this. I even... Man, Facebook served me this the other day. It gave me pause. It was like, "When a man centers a woman in his life, his world expands. When a woman centers her life around a man, her world collapses." And I was like, it hit me like a gut punch. I mean, we're not even talking about earning power or, or the mental load or, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, it's just, you know, and I- I mean, I think for me, one of the reasons why, like, I don't think I'll get married again is that the role of wife is not something I wanna take on again. Like, I am like you. I wish I had a wife. Like, but I don't wanna serve that role anymore. And yes, maybe it doesn't have to be what we make it, but I think it's so loaded. The term wife is so loaded with s- all of this gendered expectation, and I think it's very hard to be a wife without, you know, doing some acquiescing and some making yourself smaller and accommodating and all those things. I'm just not interested in that role anymore. In fact, I don't... You know, I remember at some point, probably towards the end of our marriage, um, my ex was really frustrated because he could tell that, like, that role, that identity of wife was not as important to me as, like, so many of my other roles. Yeah. And I remember being like, "Oh, really? I don't know." And like, I didn't clock it at the time, but now I'm like, yeah, well, probably 'cause it's a shitty role. Like, I don't wanna be your wife. It means, like, helpmeet, servant, like, all of it submissive. Like, do you- Yeah do you remember what words come along with wife? Like, they're not actually anything I wanna be. So yeah, no, it's not primary in my identity category. And of course, probably 'cause I was- inadvertently in the process of realizing I was about to not be a wife, you know? And I, I probably hadn't even clocked it, and he could feel it, right? Um- Right. Yes it just takes a while for us to really be able to divorce ourselves from that. And again, for me, I needed MDMA therapy. That's how, like, it was not in my realm of, like, leaving my marriage was not an option until I did MDMA therapy. Yeah. No, I get that. It was IFS therapy for me. Yeah. And I've been doing that for four years now, and, and s- still, still processing some of that stuff, still processing what brought me into it, and what it took to leave, and what it cost to leave, and what I still believe about the leaving. I'm... I don't know, man. It is, it is constant. It is ongoing. And the programming that brings so many of us into marriage is intense. And sitting with this knowledge of, "This marriage would be better if I were smaller, if I were quieter, if I were easier, if I didn't walk past the laundry basket all the time, if I thought about l-..." I just, I wasn't a good wife, and I don't want to be. And I'm not... I don't know. I might get married again. I don't know. It would need to be v- But for me, like, I, I am a... I want a committed, healthy partnership where I feel connected to my partner. I want these things. But I love the fact that my bedroom has purple walls and poppies hanging all over it, and there's tarot cards, and journals, and books piled up next to me, and I don't know if I ever want to share a bedroom with someone again. I... Like- Yeah my time is my own. I structure my days exactly how I want. I live with one 14-year-old girl. Both of us have ADHD. There's a lot of chaos. There's a lot of mess. Not my favorite. But, like, we are bound to no one. Like- Mm-hmm we don't answer to anyone. And it is such a relief- And married or single, I will never give up this again, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I do know that. I mean, I think I... Yeah, it's a, it's hard because I too, I'm f- all of what you just said, ditto. Like, I love my own space, I love my independence. When I have my kids, it's just us, and yeah, I'm in charge. The only time I notice where it starts to not feel good for me is when I'm, like, about to travel with them. I don't love being the only adult where it's all on me. Yes. That is the only time where I'm like, "Ooh, I'm feeling uncomfortable," 'cause I'm so used to there being someone else. It's overwhelming. That's, th- that's the only time, though. The rest of the time I think it's the greatest thing ever. Yeah. Um, and yeah. I mean, I think it's hard because I... So I've started dating. I'm now in, I guess you would call it a relationship. But it's so different- 'cause I don't want shared quarters. I don't... And I'm not even sure I really want a partner. I mean, I think I want, like, the romance and the, like, attention and the love and all of that, but I don't wanna welcome him into, like, this family structure. Mm. And so then there's, like, it's just hard 'cause I'm like, so is this just, like, gonna run its course? 'Cause, like, if we're not... You know, and there's, like, no formula and no script for when you're doing, trying to do romance outside of the, like, well, where's it all going, right? Right. Um, it's great now. Um, but yeah, I have a lot of questions about what that means for my future. Yes. And when you think about, you know, people who do get remarried when their kids are out- Yeah and it's like, well, does being a wife mean the same thing if I'm 52 and y- we are fully established in our own careers and know how to do things, and I don't have to manage invisible labor, and we've both been- Yeah is that different? Right. Is, is there an option of partnering with someone and getting the benefits of that, or a, a companion, traveling together, financial security? But wait, would that go away if that doesn't work out? I mean- Right I don't know. Do the terms change? I've had this, like, ra- random weird thought that we have, like, a, like, a starter, like you can't... Some people I know fall in love early and it all works out. They're married for 60 years. It's terrific. Love those guys. Um, that's so great. But it, I'm like, what if we marry someone, we raise kids with them, and then we're like, "Cool. Door's closed on that." Yeah. Now I'm going to... I don't know. It like, it makes you wonder, how can you, unless you have a really, really great connection, a truly equitable foundation, how do you endure- th- that, that stage of life when you are learning how to be adults and then raising kids, right? Yeah, yeah. It's almost like I've outgrown that. I don't know. I don't know how people do that. I think o- a very, very small percentage of people can do it successfully and stay happy. Succ- successfully and happily. Yeah. Like, I know a shitload of people do it- Who, that doesn't- but that's, that doesn't interest me. Yes. No, I mean, I really think the percentage of marriages that are happy are ve- it's very small. I think a lot of people just stay married unhappily. And I think for me, my question is can the kind of romance and love that I'm looking for survive in a domestic setting? And I don't know the answer to that, because I personally think that, like, l- sharing living quarters with the person that you're sleeping with doesn't sound sexy. Sounds rough to me. I- So I think I'd rather keep like our separate spheres, and I still have my domain, and he has his domain, and we come together and have romance and love and all the good things, and we travel together, and maybe we spend a lot of nights together. But there's still my domain and his domain, and I'm not annoyed 'cause he didn't clean the bathroom the way I wanted him to, you know? Like, I, mm-mm, I don't know. Again, I'm only a few years out, so I, uh, recognize some of this is still like, I'm still traumatized from my marriage. Like- Sure. And- No, same. We are still actively processing that. No, so like, but that question you asked, I'm like, that question, can the kind of romantic relationship connection that I am looking for survive? Mm-hmm. That, that- No one's asking that. We presume that, like, if it's true love and true commitment, then we will live together, and I'm like, and there's the death of all the fun, you know? I mean, I'm just like- Right that formula is so, to me, it's faulty, you know? And I mean, I think Emily Nagoski would say that, who wrote Come As You Are, and she also wrote- Yeah Come Together. I think Esther Perel would say that- Yeah where she's like, you know, the domestic- I think she- and the erotic are, like, opposites, right? So, like, so why are we doing that? Like, why is that the path that we push people towards? It sounds like the death of sex to me, and I would rather keep sex and my own space. And my red walls and my- Oh, your red walls. Exactly red walls everywhere and my... No, I know. I think that is the question to end with. Like, I feel like I could talk to you every single week for the rest of my life- I know and we would never run out of things to talk about. Mm-hmm. Um, and also, like, okay, it's been three-ish years since I separated. My two-year anniversary of being final was last week. So we are still in the early-ish stages, so it's like, stay tuned. Yeah. There is more to learn as we learn it, and more to talk about as we experience it, but these are the kinds of conversations we need to be having. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. We're on a very similar timeline. I mean, I, I've still only been di- divorced a little, like a year and a half, but I moved out about three years ago. Mm-hmm. So yeah. So we- And I- same, yeah. Hmm I feel like I just turned a threshold, like just about at the three-year mark of, like, really entering a new phase- Yes in terms of, like, through the gauntlet of it and then really starting a new relationship and feeling kinda ready for it, which it took me a long time. So yeah, I, I would love to, like, keep o- or checking in. Okay, so we're, like, five years out. We're- Yeah, where are we in the cycle? 'Cause you're right, you've got the gauntlet phase, which is awful, and, like, survival and your nervous system gets totally destroyed. Yeah. But then there's a stage after that that's almost worse because you're like- Yeah "Okay, now I'm normal" and you're like, "Oh, now I can proce- did that just, did that just happen to me?" Yeah. And then you have this, like, different layer of grief over it, and yeah, now three years, I'm like, "Okay. Okay." Like- I, things are calming down. I'm a person again Yes I've processed. Uh, yeah, no, the waves are really something. They really are. I really feel like I'm on the cusp of a new chapter- Mm-hmm. Yeah, same um, which feels really good. It's like, okay. Yes. Oof. Like, okay. Yes. That was, that was a doozy. I can't believe I just went through- Yep all of that. And now- Yep it's like, and now what? Which is, you know, a really great... And now what is, like, my favorite thing about being divorced is, like- Yes everything you thought was gonna happen, it, it got erased, and now the rest of your life is, like, now what? And again, some people think that's scary, but I think it's fricking amazing and exciting. Agreed. Yeah. I do too. Yeah. I do too. I'm like, the ocean's gonna take me and toss me, and it's gonna wash me up on some beach. And I don't know- Yep what it is, but I know that I'm gonna stand up and get my bearings and locate myself on whatever beach I have been washed up on. And I think that's thrilling. So yeah, cheers to now what. Cheers to now what. Exactly. I love that. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being on this podcast. You, Cindy, you are just... I loved this conversation. I really, really did.