For the Public: Texas Lawyers in Public Service

For the Public | Careers That Serve Panel

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Our newest For the Public episode features a powerful conversation originally hosted last fall as a live Zoom webinar by TYLA’s Public Service Committee. Moderated by 2025-2026 TYLA President Alyson Martinez, this Careers That Serve panel brings together four young public service attorneys - Anthony Franklyn, Ruby Boone, Mary Rios, and Todd Smith - whose careers reflect the wide spectrum of what public service law truly looks like: from federal prosecution to municipal practice, pro bono and nonprofit advocacy, and criminal defense through court appointments.

They share the moments that pulled them toward service, the communities that shaped their work, and why these roles – across government, nonprofit, municipal, and access to justice spaces – remain essential to our profession.

The panel also shares insightful practical tips for how law students and new attorneys can begin their career in the public interest space (“Write to a local judge.” “Keep an open mind.”), highlighting how relational and network driven this work can be, and why that’s a strength: public service careers grow through connection, mentorship, and community.

Now available as a convenient podcast episode, this discussion is a reminder that public service careers are purpose‑driven, people‑centered, and deeply impactful!

🎧 You can listen to this episode at the link below or on any platform you access podcasts: https://tyla.org/resource/for-the-public/

#tyla #texasyounglawyers #forthepublic #publicservice #publicinterest #government #legalpodcast #careersthatserve #legalaid #nonprofit #probono #accesstojustice #federalprosecutor #cityattorney #criminaldefense

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to For the Public, Texas Lawyers of Public Service, a TYLA podcast series highlighting the work of public service and government attorneys across Texas. Inspired by President Allison Martinez's commitment to elevating these essential voices, each episode features lawyers whose careers show the impact and importance of serving the public.

SPEAKER_06

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for being here for Careers at Serve. I'm Alison McDonald's and I have the privilege of moderating today's conversation. I'm the 2025-2026 president of the Texas Young Lawyers Association, and my own career has been rooted in public service. First as a public defender and now working as a director for the Weapons about the County Adult Privation Department. Public service has shaped how I see justice, community, and what it means to be a lawyer. For those who may not be familiar, TYLA is a public service arm of the State Bar of Texas. Our mission is to serve the public and support young lawyers across the state. A huge part of that mission is reminding lawyers and law students that the practice of law isn't just a profession. It's a calling. We hosted this event because public service careers are often misunderstood. Sometimes they're seen as a stepping stone. Sometimes they're seen as limiting. And sometimes they're not talked about enough at all. But public service lawyers are in courtrooms, communities, classrooms, agencies, and neighborhoods every single day, shaping policy, protecting rights and standing in the gap for people who might otherwise go unheard. So today is about pulling back the curtain and explaining what this work actually looks like, what it feels like, and how someone might find their way to it. And along with me today, we have four fabulous panelists joining us. And so before we begin, I'll ask each of our panelists to introduce themselves by giving us your name, where you went to law school, and what your current role looks like. We'll go ahead and start with Todd.

SPEAKER_00

So my name is Todd Smith. I went to Texas AM School of Law and I currently practice primarily in criminal defense, where I take on court-appointed cases at times.

SPEAKER_06

Mary.

SPEAKER_04

My name is Mary Rios. I um work for a Texas Legal Services Center, which is a statewide nonprofit that provides free legal services to low-income clients. And before that, I worked, I worked at Texas Rio Grande legal aid, doing disaster relief work there.

SPEAKER_06

Anthony?

SPEAKER_01

My name is Anthony Franklin. I graduated from the University of Texas School of Law, and I am currently a federal prosecutor in Houston, Texas.

SPEAKER_06

And last but sorry not least, Ruby.

SPEAKER_05

Hello, everyone. My name is Ruby Boone. I'm the deputy city attorney for the City of Victoria and practice municipal law. I went to Texas Tech University School of Law for Law School, and I previously served as a prosecutor for Victoria County.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you all so much for being here today. And we're so excited to get into your careers, your journey, your pathway to through law schooling, your um pathways through public service. But I'd like to get us started in talking a little bit about why public service. So, Anthony, um please give us, you know, a little bit about like why did you decide to pursue a career as a public interest attorney?

SPEAKER_01

Sure. Um, so for me, I think it uh actually started early on, my mom. Um she was a teacher, she was always very involved, always giving back. And so that sort of philosophy and mentality was instilled early on. Uh, I think specifically public service for me, um, I knew as a lawyer I wanted to do something where I felt like I was helping people. Uh, I felt like I was giving back and having an opportunity to make a difference. And so public service is what allowed me to do that. So I graduated from law school. I immediately started working as a county prosecutor and was a prop county prosecutor for almost three years. Um, and so then I transitioned to law firm life for a little bit and found it was not as fulfilling as I hoped or wanted it to be. And so when an opportunity presented itself to uh return the prosecution, especially as a federal prosecutor, I jumped at it and it honestly has been the best thing I've done. So I enjoy it. I feel like I get a chance to help people and truly ensure that justice happens for people, and I love every bit of it.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you for that answer, Anthony. Um, Mary, uh you work in the nonprofit space with and more like legal aid representation. Was that always a plan for you coming out of law school, or did something shift along the way?

SPEAKER_04

It was always the plan for me. And I realized I forgot to tell you on my law school before I went to University of Texas for law school. Um, but I went into law school wanting to serve um low-income populations. I wanted to do that before law school and and quickly found out I kind of wanted and needed an advanced skill to be able to serve that community with. And I've just learned so much about the needs of that community through the work. Um, and just the as the further I get into my career, the more and more I see how much how much public interest attorneys are needed and how how we need more and more of them. Because it's just how many clients are out there that need our help.

SPEAKER_06

Definitely. I think you know, one of the things that we love to talk about in TYLA is access to justice. And I think public service attorneys across the state serve a function for that. Um, but moving forward, um, Ruby, um, your work as a municipal attorney with the city uh attorney's office in Victoria. Um was this something that you were propelled to pursue from law school? Or did you discover it in practice? Was it just, you know, something that was there when you uh decided to pursue it? Or um kind of how did you fall into being a city attorney?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Um so in law school, I did a lot of pro bono work. Um and I would, you know, transitioning from studying from the bar to working, I actually went to a private firm for about six months and it wasn't really a good fit for me. I really wanted something that was like more collaborative. And I should have known that my love of pro bono work in law school should have translated to public service, but it took me a little bit to kind of figure that out. Um, and so after that, you know, six months, I was really just kind of looking for something or a job that I felt was bigger than just myself and my, you know, my certain clients. Like I wanted to be a part of the community. Um, and so that's kind of what helped me um do that was becoming um a prosecutor and um just being in like a government role, you just kind of learn that there's um it's just more collaborative in that kind of setting. And it the work that you're doing is just it's not for you know, for the the billable hour necessarily. It's more of like um a mission-driven um or or goal. So um after that, I went going to the city attorney's office. Definitely did not have that in the cards. It was not on the bingo card. Um, but um, you know, after a few years uh of getting in here and like learning what municipal law was, um I really enjoy um how we really touch just all parts of the community. Um and so like there's police and fire and libraries and parks. And so my job, I get to touch just, you know, different things that really enhance the quality of life for our community. So that's what I really enjoy about it.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you. Yeah, no, I think I've heard it several times from other city attorneys, right? Like you really get to see the impact you have from that work. And, you know, for me, it was a surprise to realize like how personal this work feels, right? You're when you're a public interest attorney and you're doing all this work, you really get to see firsthand. For me, it was my clients at the public defender's office, right? Seeing firsthand how our counsel, our help affected their day-to-day lives. And that was truly the greatest gift. And Todd, I know you're currently in private practice, but you do take on court appointments. And um uh and so what made you um pursue that and what what brought you to to being an attorney that takes on criminal court appointments?

SPEAKER_00

So I've always uh my mentor when I first started practicing believed in always taking on pro bono work, regardless of what field you're in. And he encouraged me when I worked as firm to go ahead and take court appointment clients um because there's an e for it out in rural east, Texas, that it, you know, these people, a lot of them cannot afford an attorney. And you know, it's one that there are not a lot of younger attorneys that are willing to take on those cases, and it's one that our community out here needs it. And I think that if younger attorneys weren't willing to do it, I think that you would have a gap in justice.

SPEAKER_06

For those of you who have, you know, done private practice as a side to public interest or have dabbled in private practice, did anyone discourage you from going back into public interest or pursuing public interest more full-time?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I don't think anyone actually discouraged me. I think it was um more an internal battle for myself. Um, so if you've never done private uh or law firm life, it's very appealing. Um, you know, just between the the money and just the uh everything that goes with being in a law firm, it's a very different lifestyle and experience than being in public interest and public service. And so I'll be honest, um, around the time I was considering moving back into public interest, my wife and I had just gotten married and we had started our family. And so it was a very hard calculus to kind of think through do I give up a lot of those benefits to go back into public service where admittedly you make less money and stuff. Uh, but honestly, like I said, I haven't regretted it a single day. I mean, between the work-life balance, uh, the fulfillment. And so there are just so many things that, you know, as cliche as it sounds, you can't buy, um, including happiness and peace of mind. And that is one thing that I have definitely enjoyed um being back here in public service. And I will say, like I said, once I got sort of over that internal battle, um, it has been very rewarding doing what I do.

SPEAKER_06

Well, you know, I would like to talk a little bit about what the actual job looks like, right? What what are we doing day to day? Um, and I think for all of us, I can probably say easily that there is no one day that is the same, right? Um, but Mary, kind of walk us a little bit about through like what is a typical day for you.

SPEAKER_04

And I'll start off by saying I am probably the least typical in terms of what my day looks like of all the attorneys on this panel. So I feel funny going first. But I so my the main part of my job is administering pro bono programs at our organization. Specifically, I have one really large pro bono program told called Texas Free Legal Answers. So every day looks very different. Um, I I it's my responsibility to try to make sure as many of the questions that come in through that project from clients from low-income clients get answered. So a lot of my days spent communicating with attorneys, answering their questions, trying to work with community organizations to connect and help educate attorneys that we exist and get more attorneys on board because we have thousands of questions come in every year. I think six to seven thousand and maybe 50 to 70 percent of those get answered. So there's just a huge my goal is always on the those that 50 to 30 percent that aren't getting answered, and I most of my days are spent trying to figure out how to address those questions. And I also work with law student volunteers a lot. A lot of my time is spent um connecting with and training and um recruiting lost law student volunteers to help us in our work because one of the things, kind of like Anthony mentioned, that's different about being in public interest, you have all the wonderful benefits, the fact that you're helping and you really feel like you're connected to a bigger goal. Um, but one of the challenges is that we don't have as much administrative help. So I work with law students a lot to help with some of those administrative things and they get they're getting their pro bono hours. Um, so I could answer a lot of questions from them. I check on the portal, I see how things are going there. Um it's not a great answer, but every day it looks a little bit different, just putting out little fires here and there. Um, but I am atypical because I don't actually practice law at the moment. I manage a program where my goal is to get more attorneys to help our clients.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and I mean I'm the same, right? When you're in more administrative work, your day-to-day is going to be very differently. It is gonna be determined by the fires that you have to put out those days. Um you know, my job used to be, you know, dramatic courtroom moments and high-stakes trials, and now it's more about preparation, conversation, strategy, problem, a lot of problem solving. And so um you flex different kinds of skills when when doing so. But Anthony, you're probably our courtroom warrior. Um here, you're you're not, you know, uh uh I what do I like to say? I I'm a recovering trial attorney, right? Is what I sometimes say. You're not in recovery quite yet. Um, what is the life of an A USA look like day to day?

SPEAKER_01

Um so actually, it's like Mary said, it's can be very different. I mean, it just kind of depends on the day. Um, I mean, we handle all aspects of our cases, everything from the initial investigative side of things, trying to figure out what happened, who do we think did it, you know, what all was going on, all the way through the trial portion and then ultimately sentencing. And so depending on a given day, it could be very different. Um, like today, my morning was spent knocking out search warrants for an agent who was trying to get additional information about a case. Um, other days, like you mentioned, I am in court all day. So between sentencing hearings and motions and even trial prep, uh, I may spend the entire day just at the courthouse getting prepared for that. And so um, you know, no two days are really the same. It just really kind of depends on what's needed, um, depending on the timeline of where we are with things, uh, what is most pressing. Uh, but the day can just really vary depending on what the needs are.

SPEAKER_06

And I guess I can leave this open to the panel. What skill do you think that you use daily that law school didn't really quite emphasize, or right? That or that, you know, for me it's problem solving, right? And it's not that it didn't emphasize it, but it's not like the biggest thing that you do in law school. The biggest thing you do in law school is you brief a bunch of cases, right? But and I find that I don't do that quite as much as um I used to back then, but problem solving for me has been the greatest thing. I I always credit it as like the greatest gift law school has given me this ability to think quickly and figure out a solution to a problem. I used to do it in court all the time when I needed a reset and like try to find a reason to ask a judge to give me more time, or here at the office, right? Or with probation when we're looking at different issues that may pop up. Like I pride myself in being able to come up with solutions really quickly. Does anyone else have anything that they would like to add?

SPEAKER_05

I would say managing people and personalities. It's definitely something that didn't really learn in law school and undergrad, um, but it just kind of comes with time and learning and building relationships with people, especially me. I work with the same people all the time. And so just kind of managing expectations and personalities and trying to explain the law to lay persons. Um, I think those are some things that I didn't necessarily learn in law school, but I definitely use every day.

SPEAKER_04

I'll agree with both of those and then um kind of elaborate. Like the problem solving is specifically like creative problem solving. When you're in working in a nonprofit, you don't have a lot of funds at your disposal and you're trying to solve. Like for me, the problem I'm always trying to solve is how do I get the Texas Free Legal Answers Project like taken care of so that I can focus on outreach and bringing law students in was the way that I did that. But that was not something that was done before. So I had to kind of be creative, brainstorm, create a program for the students where I could fit them in. Um, and then uh like networking or building connections when you're working on a statewide project. Like that's something I we talked in some of my clinics about how to connect with clients and how to make them feel comfortable in an interview, but we didn't really talk about building community partners. And that's really depending on your role, can be a big part of what you do. Um and then finally, the last thing I'll say, which I think is probably true of any legal career, but time management. I mean, when you're in law school, like you're managing time in a very different way. Like you have like bigger tasks and you kind of know what's coming. Um, when you're in a role like mine, you have a million little tasks and then fires coming at you. So one of the things, especially since I've come into a management role that I've learned is what works best for me and how my brain works and how you know what what my workload is to manage and to triage and to remind, you know, reminding yourself you can your our brains can only work on one task at a time. But I think I think that's true in all of law, but particularly in a lot of our careers, like public defenders, there's always our case load, the caseloads are you know absurdly high. Um, in my field, it's like the incoming, the intake for every program is usually really, really high. So you're managing like how do I balance all these clients who need my help and who I would like to help with. Um, there's only so much we can get done any day. Um, but that is something that I think I've learned a ton about and it's very useful life skill. And if you can work on it in law school, it'll be super helpful in your career.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you for that very detailed answer. And I think it gives you a a good, probably a good view into like a little of the things that we see every day, right? Um, but Todd, I would love to talk a little bit more about court appointments and and really like touching base on how important they are to our system of justice, right? What is the part, what is one part of that that people rarely see, but that matters the most in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's building the personal connection with uh court-appointed clients. A lot of clients initially they don't have a lot of trust in an attorney that's appointed. And so being able to develop that personal relationship, and then it's one that, you know, the other aspect of it that I think most people don't realize is the mental health component that's tied to the criminal system and being able to, you know, skill like what you're talking about that I definitely did not learn in law school and I've had to learn in practice was how to navigate social services because I've had many clients who are veterans or were qualified for social services that might correct the issue of why we're dealing with a criminal case. And so it's navigating those systems and trying to get you know the client access to them that they've never had, and you know, no one's really done that for them. So coming from knowing nothing about Social Security, VA and other programs, I really had to do research and kind of um interconnect with the individuals that were the local representative representatives for those programs.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I mean, I think when I was at the public defender's office, we kind of had this old like belief that we were not just the attorneys in the case, we were the social workers. We were sometimes their only friend, right? Or their only support system. And you carry that a lot with you when it comes to just dealing with clients day to day dealing, but working with clients day to day. Um, and it is part of the public interest part portion of what it is that we do, right? Um how has serving this particular community shaped how you think about justice?

SPEAKER_00

And I'll stick with Todd for the Um it's one that I think that without having attorneys that are willing to take on um court appointments, that a lot of individuals can't afford justice. Um the price of retaining counsel is extreme in some cases. And, you know, if attorneys aren't willing to volunteer and take on those cases at a very reduced rate or even pro bono, I think the individuals' um constitutional rights are eroded and essentially there's not justice for them or really for anyone involved with the criminal case.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and going back to your earlier answers, well, you know, there are lots of public defender offices across the state that have really grown and have really um expanded what kinds of services that they offer in-house, right? It's more holistic. And I believe that's a trend moving forward. But, you know, we still need public defenders, we still need public service attorneys all across in every specter, every every area that you can see. So um you know, I'll I'll leave this open to whoever is interested in answering this question because I'm kind of curious to hear everyone's answer, but You know, for the sake of time, um, we won't I won't call on everyone, but um what would any of you say is the emotional side of this work?

SPEAKER_01

I I will say um some good days, some bad days. Um I will tell you it is anytime you deal with clients, it can be very hard. And depending on the type of situation you're dealing with clients in, it can be difficult. And thankfully I don't have clients, but usually I'm dealing with a lot of victims or in many cases defendants. And so um I would say usually in public interest, public service, we're not exactly getting people at their best. And there's a a very strong human component to helping people in public service and public interest. There just is. And sometimes it can. It can be very taxing, uh, it can be very tolling on you. Um, and it's hard sometimes to separate, you know, kind of like what Mary was saying earlier, there's only so much you can do. And part of that is being okay with the fact there's only so much you can do. Uh, but then the other side of that is there's some days that are absolutely amazing. I mean, you see somebody like Todd mentioned who may not otherwise have help, may not otherwise have access to legal services or whatever the case may be, and knowing that you were able to use, you know, whatever air quote talent you have to benefit somebody else and to help them with something they may not have been able to receive help with, it really does make you feel good inside. And like maybe, you know, you are doing something right and there is value to what we do. Um, and so I would definitely say, you know, you you get both sides of it, but I think more times than not, for most of us, while we continue doing it, is that the good emotions, the good outcomes are things that definitely outweigh sometimes the bad or the negative that we have to endure.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I mean, I think the emotional labor is so real, right? You carry stories home with you that you didn't expect to carry. Um, I personally dealt with a lot of compassion fatigue early on in my career, but there's also, like Anthony said, you know, the good and the bad, right? There's also so much good. You get to see how the work that you're doing actually shapes the communities that you're in and it shapes the health of the communities that you're in. So it takes this like practice of law from being this abstract thing to becoming way more human, right? Like I know we've all talked about like just a human component of it all. And so um, I think that's what I've enjoyed the most. But you know, in keeping in with the esteem, how is it? You know, I've talked about like having dealt with compassion fatigue early on. How do we deal, how do we avoid burnout and what helps keep us grounded too? And I'll I'll go with Mary for those questions.

SPEAKER_04

Um, whenever this topic comes up, I think back to so the role I had at Texas Legal Services Center before my current role was I was on um chat answering questions for clients um about custody and visitation issues. So, like like somebody all mentioned, like clients not in their often they were not in their worst moment, but they were in a very stressed-out moment. You know, they're concerned about access to their kids or the safety of their kids. Um, and I would have like up to three questions I would like that I was answering, three clients I was chatting with at a time. And so at the end of those shifts, I would find myself, you know, this is a kind of a shorter version of burnout, but my brain and my emotions would just be completely taxed. Um so learning to just remember that that was coming and make space for it in my life because I couldn't necessarily control the fact that at the end of a four-hour shift of talking to client, you know, up to three clients at a time about things that they're very concerned about and that I wanted to give them good advice on. Um, I couldn't, I couldn't control that that took a toll on me, but leaving space, you know, being like, okay, for the 30 minutes after that, I'm gonna just give my brain and my emotions, my nervous system a break and then come back to it, you know, come back to the next task a little bit later. I think that's kind of um the biggest thing. And then just learning to pace pace myself in terms of, you know, like I've talked about we can't all get it done. So, you know, I might have a million ways to kind of outreach to attorneys because I really want those questions answered, but pacing myself, being like I can only work on a few things at a time, and you know, we will slowly chip away at this justice gap together. I'm not gonna solve it all in one day, um, reminding myself of that, I guess if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_06

Well, you know, we've talked a little bit about the the heaviness of this role, but we want to talk about the good too. And so, Ruby, what has been the most rewarding moment in your career so far?

SPEAKER_05

Oh man, um I think if I had to pick one moment, um so a lot of what the work that I do, I deal with um our public safety departments. And so one of the um one of my jobs is to write resolutions and ordinances for them. And so I was able to write an ordinance that really helped um our officers um engage it with our community to keep it safer when it when it comes to um alcohol establishments after 2 a.m. Um that are BYOB. And so I had a lot of feedback from the officers in the community that really appreciated that work on that ordinance. It was, you know, years in the making. Um, and I actually kind of uh remember um some of the DWIs that I got as a prosecutor um from those establishments. So it kind of was like full circle moment um to get that ordinance in place a few years ago. Um so I would I would think that that that would probably be the be the moment that I remember the most as a rewarding um topic for me.

SPEAKER_06

And um Anthony, I mean, I don't know if you can provide a different answer than what we all expect, right? Um, but how do you define success in your role? Because as a prosecutor, we think that like you're just like getting the bad guys in jail, right? Like if that's that's what it is. But no, but like we want the real answer, right? The not just a movie scripted answer. How is it that you define success and all?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, that's a great question. And I will say actually, um, for me, it comes back to sort of the foundation of how I became a prosecutor. Um, when I started prosecuting, one of the first things we were taught is the role of the prosecutor is not to seek a conviction, but to see that justice is done. And it is something that I have internalized every day I've been a prosecutor. Um, I have seen firsthand, I know firsthand the consequences of criminal law can have on people. I mean, you know, whether right or wrong, even just the accusation that someone has done something criminal can have lingering effects, like you're talking about jobs and missed work and all kinds of other things. And so, because of that, that is something I take very seriously in my role is you know, my job is not to necessarily convict people, it's to figure out what happened and what is just to required. And I'll be honest, sometimes I've gotten I've got I've had as much satisfaction from yes, seeing someone put behind bars who did something wrong or victimized someone or you know, did something heinous. Um, but equally knowing that I was able to help someone get a second chance, whether that be through a diversion program or, you know, terms for dismissal, whatever the case may be. And so I think for me, that really is what this is about. I mean, you know, being a prosecutor is something that I love, but I also recognize there's a lot of weight that comes along with it and a lot of implications for people. And so anytime, you know, whether it's the victim or the defendant, if I feel like I did what was right and I did what justice required in that situation, then for me, that is being successful. So, like I said, sometimes it's helping the victim, other times it's being lenient on the defendant who maybe just messed up one time and you know genuinely was in a bad position and will do better next time. Uh, but to me, it's all about ensuring that everything we do, everything that we pursue, it's all about being just to everyone.

SPEAKER_06

Um, Todd, you know, again, talking about court appointments, what would you say is the biggest misconception about your job?

SPEAKER_00

It kind of goes hand in hand with what Anthony was just talking about. I think is most people think uh criminal defense attorneys and prosecutors hate each other. Um, in fact, most of the prosecutors that I work with are like Anthony, they're there to seek justice. So, particularly on a mental health case or someone that has significant health issues, a lot of times I'll work with the prosecutor to get those individuals in different diversion programs or different, you know, medical uh treatment facilities and things like that. Um, and so I think most people think that I'm just battling it out with the prosecutor day in, day out. A lot of times it's working together to seek justice for someone charged with a crime.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I think whenever my non-lawyer friends, like I introduce them to the prosecutor friend that I have, they're just like, y'all don't hate each other. I'm like, no, that's just for movies. Like we we get along and because we have to work together. And you know, one of the things that we've always said is like this is a system of justice, and we are two parts of that system. And if we work together, the gears will move a lot more uh smoothly. And so it's it's better if we have a good working relationship. Um, Mary, what would you say is one moment that reminded you why it is that you chose this path or why it is that you're, you know, so focused on, you know, access to justice work and nonprofit work and and all of those things.

SPEAKER_04

It's so hard. I've been thinking about this. It's so hard to pick one moment because the the nature of my work both at Legalite Here is just there's always been this flood of tiny little moments where I'm helping clients. But um, I think back to this one, it it it's silly, but it reminds me of kind of like a lot of the work I do now, because a lot of the work I do now, um I'm getting attorneys to give brief advice to clients who will not have an attorney. The just the bottom line is legal aid does not have enough attorneys to help with a lot many civil legal matters, so they focus on the worst of the worst. So if you have a kind of run-of-the-mill divorce or even, you know, like something that feels maybe more urgent, you you may not get an attorney. And so that's the reality of what we're telling people. Um, and so they're what we're trying to tell them is to give them information and resources to go on and help themselves within the system. And so the silly moment that comes to my mind sometimes when I was back at Legal A doing disaster response work, I just talked someone through how to talk to their insurance company to get the information there because they were trying to file for FEMA, um, but they needed to go through get their insurance company pay first. And they really just needed information to help them walk through the system, and they were so grateful. And that's how a lot of the clients that I speak used to speak with, and a lot of the clients that are in the free legal insurance portal are they they need that little bit of information. Unfortunately, our system isn't set up to give, you know, give them full representation in a lot of ways. But the more that we as attorneys can help them get that information and also advocate as legal aid attorneys to make this system simpler. I think that's a lot of what we see our job as as legal aid attorneys advocating for laws that make it easier for clients to navigate themselves. So those little moments where I see clients succeed in navigating themselves, that that client went on, talked to their insurance company, everything was solved. You know, it it was simple because I gave them the tools they were they needed to advocate for themselves. So a little different from some of y'all's success stories, but um, that's just I guess my viewpoint from seeing the other end of the mass amounts of civil legal help needed.

SPEAKER_06

No, thank you for that. Um so you know, we're we're entering into the space of advice, right? And it's not unsolicited advice because we are all here on this panel. Um, but if someone who is watching this panel is considering a career in public service or considering to take on a role in public service, what should they be doing right now? And this is assuming that they're in law school, they're a law student, and getting ready to graduate and take the bar and then start the career. What what should they be trying to do to start it off in public service? And I'd like to hear, I think, from everyone.

SPEAKER_05

I'd say the basically the place to start is try to seek out mentors in maybe a job that you're interested in, or even um reaching out to a certain office, the city, county, or government entity to see if they have summer internship programs. And even if they don't have a program, they might be willing to take you on, anyways. Um, like our office doesn't typically have an internship program, but I've had um law students reach out, and so we are happy to host them for a summer. And so I think just trying to find a person that is doing the job that you're interested in and building a connection, asking them to be your mentor, um, those are just all good steps to dipping your toe into public service to see if it's right the right fit.

SPEAKER_06

I think you bring up something really important, Ruby, that I want to emphasize a little bit. So in a lot of public service offices and departments, you don't really see a traditional internship program, right, in the way that you would with like summer associates at big law firms and stuff, right? And so a lot of it is just like making the ask and networking and finding a mentor, maybe someone who works in the office, right, to potentially get you a foot in the door, right? And so it is a lot of networking that needs to be done, but it's not just because you don't see a traditional posting for like summer and some of them do. I know Harris County, uh their district attorney's office has a very, you know, competitive um summer internship program that continues on even throughout the semesters. Um, but not a lot of them do, right? And so when and I was very motivated to come back to Laredo and work here, and I was like, how how am I gonna get to the DA's office? And it really was, you know, like I had a judge who connected me to there, right? I like interned with this judge after my one-all year, and that judge made a phone call to like connect me over there, right? And so it is very relational and sometimes it's networking, but just because you don't see a traditional internship as you would in other places doesn't mean that opportunities aren't there for you to explore. Um, so thank you for for saying that because I think it's important for people to know.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I would I would echo that, Alison and Victoria. There wasn't, you know, a specific posting, but I just I wrote a few letters to judges saying, I, you know, I want to come back to the community. Uh, will you please let me shadow you? So that's kind of one step that I took that um got my foot in the door.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and judges and department heads love to hear district attorneys love to hear that. They're just like, yeah, well, and then are you gonna come back after law school? Like, yeah, sure. So we'll take you. Um uh anyone else, Anthony, um any advice on what someone should be doing to get ready for a public service job?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I would say keep an open mind. Um, I think that is something that I didn't quite appreciate until law school and definitely afterwards. Um I think if someone had told me growing up or even going into law school that I was gonna be a prosecutor, I would have told you you were absolutely crazy. Like I would have taken that bet any day of the week, twice on Sunday. Um, and it wasn't until that I had certain conversations with uh law school professors and you know, about the things that I valued and my concerns with the legal system that had me consider a career in prosecution. And even now, um, as a prosecutor, you know, the other day I was in court and I had just finished an oral argument and the judge told me, you know, you were meant to be a prosecutor. And at first I was like, should I be offended by that? Like I didn't know how quite to take that. Um, but then I thought about it and I realized, you know, there is something to that. You know, when I think about who I am as a person, the things I value, the things that I enjoy doing, the things I care about, prosecution really does speak to that in a way that so far at least, I haven't found anything else in the legal profession that has the same impact for me. And so I would just say keep an open mind. I mean, um, I always believe you don't know what you don't know. And so often you go into law school thinking there's something you are meant to do or something you have to do, and just be open to trying new things, whether it be a clinic, a pro bono opportunity, or you know, even just a different area of public interest. And you may be surprised by how it resonates with you and how you actually enjoy the experience. And so I think just not being so dead set on doing one particular thing or going one particular route, but just being open and keeping an open mind on how you can help people. I mean, even taught, taught in private practice, but he's still able to meaningfully help people through public service despite being private practice. And so there's not a sort of one route to help people. And I think just being open-minded and just considering all your options, um, hopefully you'll find where you're meant to be and how you can contribute to helping people.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I will echo that as well, just because you know, when I started, I wanted to go into the GE's office. And for what you'll run into in public service jobs a lot of the times is that funding and budget is a very big thing because our budget is determined by the county commissioners, core, all of that stuff, right? And they tried to secure another position and were not able to. So I was not able to start working at the DA's office, which was my original plan. Um, and then, you know, I had friends from the DA's office that told me, well, there's an opening at the public defenders. Do you want to go ahead and do that? And I had to think about what was my reasoning for wanting to come back home and wanting to serve Laredo, right? And it was like, well, you know, like I'm here to serve my community, and this is one way to do it. So even if it's not the path that I had envisioned for myself, this was still gonna accomplish that, right? And um, I went in not fully sure if this was gonna be right for me. I ended up thinking I I went in thinking I was gonna be there for two years and I ended up loving it and was there for six, right? So um it can catch you by surprise, but having that open mind is really, really important. Um, we do have a question from one of our attendees. Um, and that is what kind of tasks can law students expect to do in these types of fields during internships? I think that's really important because I'm sure a lot of legal interns don't want to just be like filing away paper and doing menial tasks. So, any any input on on that?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I uh interned at both Harrison County District Attorney's Office and Dallas District Attorney's Office. And I think all the prosecutors I worked with just wanted me in the courtroom. That was their biggest thing that they didn't want me just filing away stuff and doing menial tasks. They looked at it and figured that if I was going to go into either criminal defense or prosecution, the best thing I could do was observe how they operated in the courtroom. And so I think most CA's offices will definitely get that opportunity. And I've seen some that if someone has a 3-L bar card, they'll even let them try, you know, misdemeanor cases or any supervision. So I think if you want that experience, the attorneys will definitely be willing to give it to you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'll just echo. Um, you know, we can't really compete with the law firms in terms of paying you most times. And so, you know, we got to use whatever advantage we have. And so one of the advantages to interning in public service public interests is you will get hands-on experience. Like it's very important from our perspective for you to see what you'll be doing and make sure it's something you really want to do. And so you'll get the chance to do meaningful stuff, sitting on meetings, you know, help with, you know, arguments, attend arguments, things like that. And so um, you know, you'll get a lot of hands-on stuff. You won't get you won't be getting the the free drinks and the fancy lunches, but we will, you know, give you an opportunity to actually be in court and experience what it is we do in the hopes that you will see if it's something you actually want to do.

SPEAKER_05

I'll say uh when we had a Lego intern, I gave her some of the harder questions that I didn't have time to research. And so it was like a you know, novel constitutional law question, and I really appreciated her ability to she had time, you know, to read case laws and give me kind of both sides of what she thought the issue was. And I don't think you always kind of get the opportunity to really dive into the hard questions when you're just a law student. So I really enjoyed having her for that. Personally, when I was an intern, I did have my three-year bar card 30-year bar card and was able to do hearings, please, um, as a prosecutor and so you know, supervised. And so if you are at that step and level, getting your third-year bar cards really invaluable.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I mean, and I'll say like when I interned at the DA's office, we were in court every single day. We um took on the task of like working on cases. I sat through three trials just in the summer while I was uh an intern there. One of my friends who she did an Up going back to the DA's office after law school. Um, she was working on a capital case. Um, she had interned both summers of law school. I only did one. And the first summer they had her start working on a capital case, and then the second summer she was organizing still more stuff. And when she came on full time as a prosecutor, she was part of the team that saw that capital case. So, you know, like there's a lot of the times, like Ruby says, like, that could be some of the harder tasks because like we don't have time. Um, I know in my department it we treat volunteers and interns different, right? Like if a volunteer is here and they want to help out, we'll give them the filing, we'll give them the more like uh busy work to get through it. But if they're interns and they're really here to learn and are curious for if this is a good um fit for them career-wise, we'll take them to court, we'll sit them in on client meetings, right? We'll we'll do as much as we can to expose them to the line of work that we do every single day. And so um that's my perspective as like a department head. So um we really want to, and and I do so just because I was a professional intern for many years um before even going to law school. And uh, and I did it because I interned lots of places, and I did so because I was trying to figure out what it is that I wanted to do. I grew up thinking I was gonna be a journalist, and that wasn't particularly the best fit. Um, and so I wanted to figure out what if that's not the fit, what else is? And so I interned everywhere to kind of get a feel for it and I had that open mind. And so I now like try as if now that I have the opportunity to host interns, I will always do so. And I'm sure lots of places will do so as well. Um, and speaking of internships, um how did any of you all go about choosing the types of internships that you pursue during law school?

SPEAKER_04

I'll go first um and say I I was kind of like you, Allison, um, during law school, trying to figure out what area. I knew I wanted to do public service work, but what area I was used my internships and my premonite work to help me figure like narrow down what area. And then I still ended up going in a different direction once I found my area of focus. Um and I think they were really helpful. Like I did some that were more like I was working on bigger cases, I did capital defense work, and so you're working on just a few big cases, and I got to do, you know, jur juror interviews and stuff like that, doing habeas work in um capital cases. And then I did some that was more, you know, like more like there's more clients coming in, um, you know, that you're serving more clients in the moment in their current issues. Um, and so those are very different. And one thing I would say just to add to the last question is ask when you're interviewing, ask what kinds of work you can expect because it really can vary. Like I think everyone on this call is like would be a really amazing supervisor. And I think for the most part, in legal in the in the public interest world, if you if someone takes you on, that will probably be what you get, but it doesn't hurt to ask to make sure you're gonna get the experience you want. Because I did have one internship where I I wasn't getting super meaningful work, and it was fine. I did a lot of internships, so it evened out and I got the experience I needed. But I think those are great questions to ask.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you, Mary. Um, so can in in your y'all's opinion, can someone transition into public service later in their career? Or is it something that like you should start doing right after law school? And if so, what qualities or what skills are you bringing in from private practice into public service?

SPEAKER_01

So I will say um, yes, it's very possible to start from private practice and go to public interest. And actually, in some cases, it's actually preferred. Um, I know um many um federal prosecution jobs usually want you to have prior work experience somewhere else and have guiding experience, um, you know, and really sort of cut your teeth on things before you come over to the federal side. Um, but I think, you know, the no matter when you decide to do it, that opportunity is there if it's something you actually want. Uh, I think part of it is just, like I said earlier, being realistic with yourself if it's something you want to do, because it is a very different lifestyle, it is a different change going from private to public. Um, and if it is something you want to do, you know, you're always able to reach out and like we've talked about with interns, even as a lateral professional, you can you know reach out to people who work there and learn more about it and see if it's something you actually want to do. Um, but I think um, you know, I think some of the skill sets you develop in private practice will definitely benefit you in the public sector, um, especially just in terms of on the I know on the private side, uh depending on what law firm you're at, you may have a bigger variety of cases, or like even Todd's experience. I mean, as a criminal defense attorney, I mean, he definitely has a very unique and valuable experience that if he were to leave that to go prosecute would be invaluable, knowing sort of how defense, you know, things and knowing how to go about approaching cases and things like that. So I think the main thing is just if it's something you want to do, it's available to you. Uh, I just think for a lot of people, you just have to be sort of go into it, I would say, eyes wide open about the fact that it will be a shift. You know, like I said, you won't be getting the free meals and free drinks and all the happy hours and stuff like that. But it can be a very rewarding career change and in many cases a much better work-life balance than what you'll experience in the private sector.

SPEAKER_06

Um, and if you all know this, this would be really helpful. This is a question that we got in from one of our attended attendees. Um, where can you apply for public interest jobs?

SPEAKER_04

PSJD, is it.net or.org. Just Google PSJD. They have a really good job bank. Um, what we talked earlier about like building a network. I think that's honestly, yes, you you can find jobs in there, and that's a great, it has a lot of great resources of how to enter different um career paths within public interest. Um, but network, network, network, get to know the community. Is uh and one thing I uh that we haven't said in there, but kind of if hinted at you, Alison and Ruby is like if you know where you want to work after law school, focus your internship efforts on that area. Because like once you get connected, it's so much easier to get a job. And it's the hardest shift I think is maybe making a geographical shift. I don't think it's maybe quite as hard to shift from private practice to public interest. There are a ton of attorneys at the organization where I work that have been in private practice for a while and they want, you know, better work life balance, maybe more meaningful to feel like they're part of something meaningful and they shift to our work and they really like it. And I would say one of the pros of shifting to public interest is that you work with amazing people, everybody cares. And not to say that like you know, everyone else out there doesn't care. There are a ton of private practice attorneys that care, but when you're in public interest, like everybody has a huge heart, everybody really cares about the clients, and and that transfers to like how they treat each other, you know. Like, I think we all are really, you know, it's really good supportive working environment. Um, any place that I've interned or worked has been like that.

SPEAKER_06

So yeah, and I think especially in smaller communities like Laredo, Victoria, you the more network that you build, the more you'll have a foot in the door for any one of these positions. So um it it less goes into like what website am I looking at versus like who am I calling? Right. Um, but I know that um the Texas I don't know the full name of the acronym, and I probably should have looked it up before. Um, but TDCAA is the district and county attorney organization, and they have like job postings, and that's a great place to look at. Um and state bar also, you know, we're here for through TY, so the state bar definitely has um job postings that you can subscribe to and um you can look through to see if there's anything there. But looking at county websites, looking at federal government websites, I know Anthony, you know, through the AUSA's office, so it would have to be through DOJ.

SPEAKER_01

Um actually uh USA jobs. So if you're interested in federal jobs, USA jobs will usually list most, if not all, federal jobs. And that's a great resource.

SPEAKER_06

Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that.

SPEAKER_05

And for um cities, there's Texas Municipal League, there's um assistant city attorney positions, a lot of entry-level positions are open and across the state of Texas that are listed on there. Um, I also for um I think the Criminal Defense Association has a job posting as well. So um Texas District Attorneys Association or the Criminal Association, they all have job banks. Um add me on LinkedIn too and reach out if you want to be in Victoria.

SPEAKER_01

And don't forget your simplicity. So law schools are like a huge resource for job postings and job banks. So simplicity or whatever your law school career service is, we'll also know about a lot of job postings.

SPEAKER_04

Well, we only I was just gonna say some schools, they have a career counselor that is kind of focused on on different areas. Like at UT, they had that. So figure out who that is, and that that person can be, you know, they're they're amazing and they will help get you connected and and have just even if you if you ask them to help get you connected to people in the world that you want to work in, just to have networking calls or you know, calls to ask questions about like the things that we're talking about today, all those kinds of conversations can be really helpful and build this, build that network for you.

SPEAKER_06

Well, we only have a few minutes left. Um and so I would like to wrap up our conversation by asking you all of you to answer one question. So, in one sentence, why would you say that your career serves something bigger than yourself?

SPEAKER_04

Uh I'll say I think our justice system doesn't work unless everyone has access. And I think our roles are to help we're not gonna fix the gap, but like expand that access. Um, and I think we all and all everybody on this call, their job is to do that in various ways so that the system works as it should. Sorry, that was more than one sentence. I'm bad at it.

SPEAKER_06

No, thank you, Mary. It's okay. We're all very long-winded, and that's fine. Um, Ruby, do you have any thoughts?

SPEAKER_05

Sure. Um I'd say um for my position, it's all about enhancing lovability and public trust um and using public resources. Um and so just being able to um be a part of the community really um is really rewarding.

SPEAKER_06

Anthony.

SPEAKER_01

One sentence. Um, I would say my job allows me to ensure that people are helped, comma, regardless of whether they're the victim or defendant, comma. And by doing that, comma, it allows me to ensure that to Mary's point, uh justice is is served more equitably and fairly to all people.

SPEAKER_06

And Todd.

SPEAKER_00

I think from the public defender or taking on court-appointed uh criminal cases, I think it allows attorneys to have life-changing effects not only on their clients, but their clients' families, which in turn helps out the local community dramatically.

SPEAKER_06

And for me, I would just say, you know, public service helps heal our communities, period. So no commas like Anthony, but thank you for keeping it to the one sentence. Um thank you so much to our amazing panelists. Um, thank you for the work that you do every single day. The impact of your careers and your dedication to public service and public interest extends far beyond what most people see. So thank you so much for being here and thank you so much for all of all that you do. Um to everyone watching, thank you so much for sticking with us today. I hope what you heard today is that public service is not a fallback. It's frontline work, it's intentional, it's impactful, and it is deeply needed all across the country, especially in the state of Texas. Um if this conversation sparks something and you lean into it, explore it, ask questions, public service needs thoughtful driven lawyers. And I know that there's a few out there who are watching this. Um, this panel is made as a part of TYLA's larger project called For the Public, um, which will be rolling out in early or in March, April of 2026. So be sure to be looking on that. And that is a project that is very near and dear to my heart, and it is a continued focus on highlighting public service careers, and um, it will continue to spotlight lawyers all across Texas who serve in government, legal aid, and other public-facing roles. We are so excited to roll that out really soon. Um, and you can find more information on our TYLA website, uh, on our TYLA Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. So be sure to follow us there with more information. Thank you again for spending your time with us, and thank you for caring about Careers at SERF. Have a wonderful day, everyone.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you for joining us on For the Public, where we shine a light on the attorneys who strengthen our communities every day. We hope these conversations deepen your appreciation for public service and highlight the impact lawyers are making across Texas. Stay tuned as we continue sharing stories that honor their work and inspire the next generation of public minded leaders.