SPEAKER_01: This is Romans thirteen.
SPEAKER_01: Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
SPEAKER_01: Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
SPEAKER_01: For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.
SPEAKER_01: Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority?
SPEAKER_01: Then do what is good and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good.
SPEAKER_01: But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain.
SPEAKER_01: For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
SPEAKER_01: Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience.
SPEAKER_01: For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.
SPEAKER_01: Pay to all what is owed to them, taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
SPEAKER_01: Owe no one anything except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
SPEAKER_01: For the commandments, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and any other commandment are summed up in this word you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
SPEAKER_01: Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
SPEAKER_01: Besides this, you know the time that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep, for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.
SPEAKER_01: The night is far gone, the day is at hand.
SPEAKER_01: So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light.
SPEAKER_01: Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy, but put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh to gratify its desires.
SPEAKER_01: And so reads God's word.
SPEAKER_02: And if you can have Romans 13 uh open in front of you, uh would be good to follow along.
SPEAKER_02: We uh we're probably only actually going to get through half the chapter uh today, um, which you you may be relieved to know that I'm not uh doing the whole chapter uh in one go.
SPEAKER_02: Um so um how do you uh how do you all feel uh this week?
SPEAKER_02: Uh what do you think was the um what was the most uh significant political event uh this week?
SPEAKER_02: Anything anything big happen uh in the world of global politics?
SPEAKER_02: Uh in the providence of God, it just so happens that we have landed on uh on Romans 13.
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I know you what you're all thinking Simon Harris finally announced uh the Irish general election for the 29th of November.
SPEAKER_02: Uh so you see all the signs uh there.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, and uh Donald Trump got re-elected uh as well.
SPEAKER_02: That that happened, that happened too.
SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't know if anybody was mindful uh of that.
SPEAKER_02: I suspect actually that if we uh if we polled you or we got you to say uh just one uh one-word description of how you feel about Donald Trump's re-election, but don't worry, we're not going to do that.
SPEAKER_02: Uh because we would get quite a broad spectrum.
SPEAKER_02: In fact, there's a uh a friend of mine on on Facebook uh for you younger people.
SPEAKER_02: Uh Facebook is what millennials uh used to use uh for uh for social media, uh and uh and a and a Gen Xer was on it, still posting, uh, and asked the question uh how is everybody feeling today on Wednesday morning?
SPEAKER_02: And it was just striking uh how many uh people who are all believers in the Lord Jesus split down the middle, ecstatic, elated, couldn't be happier, gutted, devastated, can't believe it.
SPEAKER_02: And I suspect that actually it would be similar in a room like this, because we live in massively politically polarized times, to say the least.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, even between between Christians, emotions can run very high.
SPEAKER_02: Uh dependent and you'll know that depending on how online you are and how politically engaged uh if we look through your podcast feed, we would know uh who are the more politically online people.
SPEAKER_02: Um don't uh don't look through my podcast uh feed.
SPEAKER_02: Um you would, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, um, but if you're not politically engaged at all, that's that's okay.
SPEAKER_02: Welcome.
SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe you're not at all bothered what has happened uh on Tuesday.
SPEAKER_02: There's still this question, however, of how should Christians operate as citizens in the world.
SPEAKER_02: And that's primarily what what Paul is concerned for in this first half of Romans chapter 13.
SPEAKER_02: Off the back of 12, it can feel like a slight left turn.
SPEAKER_02: He's just been talking about uh you know loving one another, loving your enemies, and uh outdoing one another with honor, and then he kind of uh kind of seems to have this crunching gear change into oh, and by the way, uh all authorities uh come from God and you should submit to them.
SPEAKER_02: It feels uh a little bit strange.
SPEAKER_02: But actually, in the context of 12, uh chapter 12, that is, it's not because remember uh what the kind of headline is uh in the first verse of chapter 12.
SPEAKER_02: It says, Don't be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
SPEAKER_02: Don't be conformed by the pattern of this world.
SPEAKER_02: And so you can imagine uh some New Testament Christian thinking, well, one of the patterns that there is in this world is uh the uh the seeming kind of order of governance.
SPEAKER_02: Uh and so do we not conform to that then?
SPEAKER_02: One of the patterns seems to be the uh the reality of uh of authority, of uh the exercise of justice by the state.
SPEAKER_02: And so when we're not to be conformed to the pattern of this world, does it mean that actually we should uh not listen to any state body?
SPEAKER_02: Well, what about Caesar in the Roman context?
SPEAKER_02: Do we reject all government and just say uh Jesus is Lord or Christ is King?
SPEAKER_02: The other reason is that actually if you say Jesus is Lord now, and especially in the New Testament, the words Jesus is Lord is a political statement.
SPEAKER_02: Do you appreciate that?
SPEAKER_02: That's certainly how uh those in authority in Rome heard it, and it's certainly how those in authority in certain uh countries with certain systems of government still hear it.
SPEAKER_02: That when you say, actually, my ultimate allegiance is to not the state, but to a crucified and risen Messiah, that can be understood as being seditious, that is undermining of the state.
SPEAKER_02: To say Jesus is Lord is inevitably a political statement.
SPEAKER_02: And so, what therefore is the place of the state within that confession, within that declaration.
SPEAKER_02: Another reason why it it it really makes sense for Paul to talk about it here is that he has already talked about in Romans chapter 8 about the the persecution of Christians.
SPEAKER_02: He talks about how they've uh being killed all the day long.
SPEAKER_02: And we know from history that the the persecution, even at this early stage in the first century, was already beginning to ramp up in Rome.
SPEAKER_02: He's just been talking about loving those who oppose us.
SPEAKER_02: And so it would make sense for him to help us to think about our attitude towards those governing authorities.
SPEAKER_02: So, how are we to respond to those in government?
SPEAKER_02: How are we to respond to the state and those above us?
SPEAKER_02: Well, Paul's answer is quite stark.
SPEAKER_02: Look at verse one.
SPEAKER_02: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities.
SPEAKER_02: Verse five, therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 7, pay to all what is owed to them.
SPEAKER_02: Taxes to whom, taxes are owed, revenue to him, revenue is owed.
SPEAKER_02: These verses seem absolute.
SPEAKER_02: They are pretty absolute.
SPEAKER_02: Paul is calling Christians to the voluntary embrace of the authorities that are over them.
SPEAKER_02: And remember he has he is he knows that he is dealing with Caesar in Rome, who is not a Christian, who is persecuting Christians, and who is calling the Christians to submit to ruling authorities.
SPEAKER_02: Now, I know what you're all thinking.
SPEAKER_02: You're all immediately uh saying to yourself, yes, but or yeah, but what about surely not when I know we will get there.
SPEAKER_02: There are plenty of hints both in this passage and in the rest of the Bible about things like civil disobedience, but you need to hear what Paul is saying here, and particularly if your mind, if you hear be subject to ruling authorities, and the first thing that comes into your mind is yeah, but and you're looking to find the loophole, the exception, the the hard case when you shouldn't, then actually that says something about our hearts, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02: That actually we're not immediately disposed to wanting to submit to authorities.
SPEAKER_02: And I get like look, anybody who knows, I here's confession time, right?
SPEAKER_02: I find this passage hard.
SPEAKER_02: One of the reasons why I find this passage hard is that I hate seemingly arbitrary laws.
SPEAKER_02: And I hate little mini despots uh that you that you encounter in uh in grocery stores or in airports or things like that, people who just love their authority.
SPEAKER_02: That just makes me bristle.
SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, the more ungodly parts of me kind of get aroused uh by by those impositions of seemingly irrational rules.
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, but why?
SPEAKER_02: But that actually says something about my heart, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02: That actually when I'm looking to, well, how can I actually break this rule uh to either you know stick it to the to the little mini tyrant, or uh, or because I just don't think that it's a very good rule to begin with, then that I'm already missing the overarching idea of be subject to those who are in authority.
SPEAKER_02: That actually that is a good thing because those authorities have been placed there by God.
SPEAKER_02: We'll get to that a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02: And so it's helpful for you to ask yourself are you like me?
SPEAKER_02: Do you struggle?
SPEAKER_02: Or do you immediately try and find the loophole?
SPEAKER_02: Do you immediately try and find the workaround, the exceptional case, the the way to uh to get around the law or authority?
SPEAKER_02: And perhaps it betrays a lack of willingness on our part because Paul's actually helping us to be disciples of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02: Excuse me.
SPEAKER_02: Why does Paul want us to submit?
SPEAKER_02: Well, he gives us, broadly speaking, three reasons here.
SPEAKER_02: The first is that all authority comes ultimately from God.
SPEAKER_02: See that?
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't have my coffee down here with me.
SPEAKER_02: Would you grant me water, Peter?
SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
SPEAKER_02: I was preaching away all day yesterday, and I think that's kind of knackered my voice a little bit.
SPEAKER_02: I apologize.
SPEAKER_02: First reason all authority ultimately comes from God.
SPEAKER_02: Let every person, this is verse one, be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God.
SPEAKER_02: And those that exist have been instituted by God.
SPEAKER_02: Paul's saying that we submit to authorities because the system of government and authority and that structure is God's chosen means of bringing order to human society.
SPEAKER_02: That actually behind the state apparatus stands a God who has instituted and delegated, thank you, brother, his authority to those state operators.
SPEAKER_02: Yes, they're flawed.
SPEAKER_02: Yes, they're fallen, yes, there is sin in there, but principally governments are God's design.
SPEAKER_02: So, how do you feel about the election in America?
SPEAKER_02: If you feel like you lost, or in a few weeks' time, you feel like who you supported, who you voted for, loses on the 29th of November, that does not give us permission to reject their authority, to demean or to rebel against those who have been placed by God over us.
SPEAKER_02: But the knowledge that God stands behind the governments of this world is not just something that is a burden to us or a something that's binding to us.
SPEAKER_02: It's actually something that's wonderfully freeing for us.
SPEAKER_02: Because what it reminds us is that political realities are not absolute realities.
SPEAKER_02: It's one of the reasons why one of the reasons perhaps why it is so sad to see the utter devastation that people feel, regardless of what you think.
SPEAKER_02: Just with human compassion, when people are utterly destroyed when their particular candidate doesn't come in, in part portrays a an idea that the political reality has become absolute, that they've attached their hope to it.
SPEAKER_02: One of the things that Paul is saying here is that all governmental authority is derived authority.
SPEAKER_02: It's not, it doesn't come mustered up from within them.
SPEAKER_02: They get it from another.
SPEAKER_02: It's reflected actually in the in the words of the Irish Constitution.
SPEAKER_02: The Irish Constitution uh begins with the words, in the name of the Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, from whom all governments uh derive their authority, and to whom all governments and peoples uh will will be conferred, will give an account in the end.
SPEAKER_02: It starts with that recognition that the authority of the state is a derived authority.
SPEAKER_02: And that's actually such good news for us.
SPEAKER_02: Because it means that our hope, even if we feel like we lost on Tuesday night, or if we feel like we will lose at the end of November, is that actually there is a God who stands behind the rulers of this world, and that he is good, and that he is just, and that all of the rulers of this world, though they are part of his good order, will ultimately be a footnote to his glory.
SPEAKER_02: And so if our candidate loses, we can be gutted, sure, you can be sad, disappointed, anxious even, about what the what the next years will will bring and be further motivated to bring political change.
SPEAKER_02: But it is helpful for us all to look beyond those things and see that there is a God who stands behind them.
SPEAKER_02: The second reason why Paul encourages us to be subject to rulers and authorities is because those in government, those in authority, are placed there for our good.
SPEAKER_02: They're placed there for our good.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 4, for he is God's servant, this is the person in authority, for he is God's servant for your goods.
SPEAKER_02: But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain.
SPEAKER_02: For he's a servant of God and an avenger.
SPEAKER_02: Civil authorities bear the sword, to use the language of Romans 13.
SPEAKER_02: Bearing the sword is that they they restrain evil, the awareness of the fact that if you create anarchy, if you break the law, you will be punished.
SPEAKER_02: That has a restraining effect.
SPEAKER_02: And also it is good and wise from our good and wise God that it is the government that bears the sword, and not that everybody bears the sword, because that would be kind of anarchy, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_02: If we were all meeting out our own justice.
SPEAKER_02: And so it's good and wise that God has set apart and instituted particular governments and authorities.
SPEAKER_02: And yes, Anne said, look, they there's injustices and they administrate it wrong and it's fallen and sinful.
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, I understand.
SPEAKER_02: But the reality that they bear the sword is a good one for the restraining of evil and for the meeting out of justice of those who have been harmed.
SPEAKER_02: You know one of the one of the things that we, if we had more time, we should have looked at it more last week, was this idea of one of the reasons why Christians don't take uh revenge upon themselves when they've been hurt is because we recognize that there is a coming judgment.
SPEAKER_02: There is a day when all those who have been harmed uh will be vindicated, and all those who have unrepentantly gone around harming people will be punished.
SPEAKER_02: That there is justice kept for that last day.
SPEAKER_02: But Paul is also saying, well, actually, some of that breaks in now, and that we can experience justice in space, time, reality, in the world, and that itself is also a good thing.
SPEAKER_02: They reward good and punish the bad, and that brings order to society, even if that civil order is fallen or imperfect.
SPEAKER_02: Authority is better than anarchy.
SPEAKER_02: And the third reason why Paul encourages us as Christians to be subject to governing authorities is because disobedience, rebelling against those governing authorities, is rebelling against God.
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna get to the civil disobedience and stop thinking it.
SPEAKER_02: I'm getting there, right?
SPEAKER_02: But disobedience is ultimately against God.
SPEAKER_02: The state exists to punish wrongdoing on God's behalf, and that is a good thing.
SPEAKER_02: You and the guard pulls me over, or somebody else, and says, you have been doing 60 and a 50 going through Chesterfield Avenue, you know, just making up a completely fictitious scenario.
SPEAKER_02: And that I know that I was doing it willfully, again, just pretend.
SPEAKER_02: That I was not only rebelling against the rules of the road, the rules set out in Phoenix Park, but ultimately against God and his good authority.
SPEAKER_02: The authority that he has divested to the state.
SPEAKER_02: It's therefore right that I get points on my license and a fine, in theory, in order that I should avoid and be encouraged to avoid further sanction and be brought back into subjection to the will of God that I obey the rules of the road.
SPEAKER_02: Verse 5, Paul uh says these words.
SPEAKER_02: He says, Therefore, one must be in subjection not only to avoid God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience.
SPEAKER_02: That one of the reasons why we submit is not just out of fear of punishment, but also for the sake of my own conscience as a believer.
SPEAKER_02: That is, that if I only obeyed when somebody was watching, that would stunt my growth as a follower of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02: My conscience would be underdeveloped if I only obeyed laws when law keeps.
SPEAKER_02: We're watching.
SPEAKER_02: That actually, one of the reasons why I obey laws, even when the guard isn't standing there with the hairdryer pointed at my car, is for the sake of my own growth as a believer in Jesus.
SPEAKER_02: A lot of confessing and repenting has happened in the study this week, in theory.
SPEAKER_02: So those are three reasons why we should be in subjection to authorities.
SPEAKER_02: Authority ultimately comes from God, it's for our good, and because disobedience is ultimately against him.
SPEAKER_02: And so, having those three reasons in mind, what does Paul say?
SPEAKER_02: Well, Paul calls us, therefore, to obedience.
SPEAKER_02: Verses 6 and 7.
SPEAKER_02: He says, therefore, you know, pay taxes to whom taxes are owed.
SPEAKER_02: Pay revenue to whom revenue is owed.
SPEAKER_02: Respect to whom respect is owed.
SPEAKER_02: Honor to whom honor is owed.
SPEAKER_02: The payment of taxes, the giving of due honor and respect, the submission to planning laws or finance laws or traffic laws are all part of our growth as followers of the Lord Jesus.
SPEAKER_02: Because in doing so, we we live more and more as living sacrifices in the world, being transformed by the renewing of our mind.
SPEAKER_02: It is a good and right thing for us.
SPEAKER_02: What about civil disobedience?
SPEAKER_02: Well, look, there are there are examples in the Bible and in history of people not submitting to the government and to authority.
SPEAKER_02: So you can think of somebody in the Christian world in the 20th century.
SPEAKER_02: First person that comes to mind is maybe somebody like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was a uh a German pastor during the Third Reich and spoke out against uh the Nazi regime and often referred to Romans 13, saying that actually the uh the the government, the the fascist government of Hitler and his cronies, uh uh that there behind that there is a God to whom ultimate allegiance is is owed.
SPEAKER_02: And so it was right actually to obey God rather than the governing authority.
SPEAKER_02: That's a very kind of excuse, like, yes.
SPEAKER_02: Uh obey the Nazis?
SPEAKER_02: No.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, we all get that, that that's not a good idea.
SPEAKER_02: What about what about something like um what about something like uh 1950s Alabama?
SPEAKER_02: Should Rosa Parks have sat on the bus?
SPEAKER_02: Well, yes, I think she probably should have.
SPEAKER_02: Well, why?
SPEAKER_02: It's because what had been created there is a culture in which the teaching of God about human beings, their equality as image bearers, their equality under the law, was being undermined and disregarded.
SPEAKER_02: And so there was a kind of obligation in order to uh to show that and bring that about, that was a good and right thing.
SPEAKER_02: Or you think biblically of somebody like like Daniel, how Daniel and his his friends, uh Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, or if you're a Veggie Tales vintage, Shak, Rak, and Beni.
SPEAKER_02: And how they disobeyed Nebuchadnezzar, and they refused to bow down to the great golden chocolate bunny rabbit, or idol, sorry, I get veggie tales in the Bible mixed up often.
SPEAKER_02: But they refused to indulge in idol worship, knowing that that would bring about consequences from the state for them.
SPEAKER_02: And on first reading of this passage, Paul seems like an absolutist.
SPEAKER_02: He seems perhaps a little bit naive, but I actually think that there's more going on, and that Paul is more savvy here in this passage than perhaps we give him credit for.
SPEAKER_02: You see, one of the things about the letter to the Romans is that the letter to Romans is going to people who work in Caesar's court.
SPEAKER_02: It is going to Chloe's household, you people who work for Caesar that are in authority.
SPEAKER_02: And so when he says things like, For the state exists to reward good behavior and to punish bad, he knows he's not just talking to the random citizen like you and me.
SPEAKER_02: He's talking to those in authority, telling them how they ought to act.
SPEAKER_02: Do you hear how savvy?
SPEAKER_02: And actually, maybe he's actually quite a good politician.
SPEAKER_02: He's simultaneously calling the Christians to be good citizens, not be seditious, not be rebellious, not cause an uprising.
SPEAKER_02: But he's also saying to the ruling authorities, and you guys actually, if I'm calling these guys to submit, you need to protect, give care, do good to them, and punish those who are causing them harm.
SPEAKER_02: Do you see?
SPEAKER_02: Now actually there's something quite textured to what Paul is saying.
SPEAKER_02: He is also pointing out to those authorities, he's saying, look, obey Caesar, but Caesar's authority has its limits.
SPEAKER_02: He calls Christians to submission and says that the state ought to reward good and punish evil.
SPEAKER_02: The Bible elsewhere does speak uh of ultimately giving our allegiance.
SPEAKER_02: We talked about Daniel.
SPEAKER_02: Uh, another uh incident is in uh in Acts chapter 4, where uh Peter and uh and James are with the ruling authorities in Jerusalem.
SPEAKER_02: And uh let me just read to you what they say to those ruling authorities in Acts chapter 4.
SPEAKER_02: It's verse 19, just one verse, where they where they say, But Peter and John said to them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than God, you must judge their ultimate allegiances to God.
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, people often use the example of Daniel.
SPEAKER_02: You read the book of read the first couple of chapters of Daniel.
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, in uh in youth groups and student groups, the Daniel series tends to be called something like Dare to be a Daniel.
SPEAKER_02: Daniel said no.
SPEAKER_02: So you should be a good believer in Jesus and you should say no to.
SPEAKER_02: I'll tell you what, guys, Daniel said yes to a lot of stuff before he said no.
SPEAKER_02: Daniel said yes to a change of location.
SPEAKER_02: He was taken from his country and moved to another place.
SPEAKER_02: He said yes to a change of name.
SPEAKER_02: He said yes uh to uh to a change of uh of title.
SPEAKER_02: He said yes to a pagan Babylonian education.
SPEAKER_02: So there's wisdom there and kind of thinking, well, where are the red lines?
SPEAKER_02: And the red lines for Daniel and his friends were actually is this participating in the worship of false gods?
SPEAKER_02: Is this indulging an idol?
SPEAKER_02: Daniel said yes to a whole bunch of stuff before he said no.
SPEAKER_02: But there does come a time where you say no and you take the consequences of it.
SPEAKER_02: But it's not a first port of call.
SPEAKER_02: And what's more, I think I think with the guys in Acts and with Daniel, and here in this passage as well, a lot of this is is it speaks to our attitude and how we hold ourselves in those moments of civil disobedience.
SPEAKER_02: There is perhaps a kind of an unhealthy, unsavory uh attitude within some quarters of the church, that it can be quite strident in their flounting of civil authorities and just being like, well, you know, Christ is king, so we're just gonna do whatever we want because our ultimate allegiance to him.
SPEAKER_02: Your ultimate allegiance is to him.
SPEAKER_02: But the authorities have been set in place for you for your good.
SPEAKER_02: And that if you feel in your conscience that it is necessary for you to indulge in civil disobedience, that actually that should be done one with lament.
SPEAKER_02: It's a regrettable thing in light of Romans chapter 13, that we must rebel against the overreaching of a state.
SPEAKER_02: It is not something to be celebrated or to be indulged in with a strident and cocky attitude.
SPEAKER_02: It should be done regretfully, with tears.
SPEAKER_02: Done nonetheless, but you see, it depends on the attitude.
SPEAKER_02: And and secondly, with a desire to, as soon as possible, come back into subjection underneath the authority.
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02: That I'm not saying that there isn't times of disobedience.
SPEAKER_02: And so let me let me say something that I um that those who know me have heard me say that I've never said publicly on this, but I'll I'll give you an illustration, okay?
SPEAKER_02: And if it upsets people, it upsets people.
SPEAKER_02: You can come and talk to me afterwards, right?
SPEAKER_02: Here it is.
SPEAKER_02: You're like, wow, it's coming.
SPEAKER_02: In COVID, I would have uh met in contravention to the uh to the COVID rules.
SPEAKER_02: Eventually, right?
SPEAKER_02: The start, I wasn't like immediately gone, oh, it's just quite scary at the start, right?
SPEAKER_02: Things were very uncertain.
SPEAKER_02: But as things went on and as the lockdowns continued, I was of the disposition, I came to the mind that I would have met in contravention to the laws.
SPEAKER_02: And what happened was that we didn't own our own building, and the people who did own our building were like, well, you're not insured if you meet in contravention to the laws, so you can't, right?
SPEAKER_02: So it became kind of a moot point.
SPEAKER_02: But I was I was getting to the kind of the the cusp of of civil disobedience.
SPEAKER_02: Now, within that, there was other churches and other pastors and pressure from other churches and pastors to just do it anyway.
SPEAKER_02: Like I had keys to the building.
SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, we could have just all gone in.
SPEAKER_02: And I could have just said to the people who owned the building that we were in at the time, well, you just you know take a run and jump.
SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do it anyway.
SPEAKER_02: And go on, well, you know, Christ is king, that's what he's my ultimate allegiance.
SPEAKER_02: Or I could have done what other churches did, and I could have called you all together to go and uh go and worship in Phoenix Park in contravention to a whole bunch of OPW um uh public gathering and order um uh statues, right?
SPEAKER_02: But here's the thing like I wanted to be very careful about how many laws I was breaking at any one time.
SPEAKER_02: You know, that I actually thought, well, I I do feel like it would be okay to mate.
SPEAKER_02: We could be sensible about that, and I thought that there was a an overreaching of the state.
SPEAKER_02: I was minded towards civil disobedience.
SPEAKER_02: But the other thing was I wasn't going to be so, I didn't want to appear strident and uh and and cocky and just go, well, we're just gonna do it anyway.
SPEAKER_02: Uh and you know, come along and uh and you know, the the guards can just, you know, they can just stand there and you know arrest me if you want.
SPEAKER_02: That's not the attitude that I wanted to present.
SPEAKER_02: Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02: That yes, there were that pushed me really far.
SPEAKER_02: And it pushed me towards civil disobedience.
SPEAKER_02: It didn't happen for those various reasons.
SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to put the other the trustees of the building that we're meeting in in a difficult position.
SPEAKER_02: Because I wanted to preserve my my witness.
SPEAKER_02: Now you can come to me and say, you made the right, you made the wrong decision.
SPEAKER_02: You should have just done it anyway.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, we can have a conversation about that.
SPEAKER_02: You can sit there and also think, I can't believe that Mark was minded towards civil disobedience.
SPEAKER_02: I know I'm a bad boy.
SPEAKER_02: But as I was thinking about this text, those are some of the things that obviously were coming to mind.
SPEAKER_02: And that if we had disobeyed, I would have hoped that we would have been able to communicate that this is a lamentable thing.
SPEAKER_02: Not a thing that is part of our ongoing DNA and something that we would want to do.
SPEAKER_02: Because we're we're, I don't think that citizens uh need to always have the disposition of wanting to be undermining to the state.
SPEAKER_02: And that our desire is for the for the state to recognize that actually it's its authority is derived from God, as its constitution says, and that we can preserve the good order of meeting together and come in subjection to that.
SPEAKER_02: We need to finish.
SPEAKER_02: In all of this, as we think about the the heart attitude that we have in these things, remember Jesus.
SPEAKER_02: Jesus faced unjust authorities.
SPEAKER_02: Remember his meeting with Pilate the morning of his crucifixion.
SPEAKER_02: What did Jesus say to Pilate?
SPEAKER_02: He said, No authority is given to you that hasn't been given to you from above.
SPEAKER_02: He's recognizing Pilate's authority.
SPEAKER_02: He's also recognizing that Pilate's authority is derived.
SPEAKER_02: But it's not ultimate.
SPEAKER_02: Equally, he knew the Pilate would be motivated by fear of man, kind of pretty pretty weasley middle management in the Roman Empire, and that he would act unjustly.
SPEAKER_02: And yet he submitted.
SPEAKER_02: Yet he submitted.
SPEAKER_02: In the same way, we pray for good government.
SPEAKER_02: We long that those in power would use the sword with righteousness and justice.
SPEAKER_02: But we do not look to any political candidate or any system.
SPEAKER_02: There's nothing in the Bible about democracy.
SPEAKER_02: We do not look to a system for our ultimate hope, but to the lamb that was sl who was silent when he was led to the slaughter, and that who three days later found himself vindicated never again to be put into subjection by any earthly authority because he is the one who now rules as Lord of all.