SPEAKER_00: Welcome to City Church Dublin Sermon Archives.
SPEAKER_00: Join us in session two from our Church Family Weekend Away, 2022, as our guest speaker Colin Crichton speaks to us from Proverbs.
SPEAKER_02: So Proverbs 20, verse 5.
SPEAKER_02: The purposes of a person's heart are deep waters, but the one who has insight draws them out.
SPEAKER_02: Just read it again.
SPEAKER_02: The purposes of a person's heart are deep waters, but the one who has insight draws them out.
SPEAKER_02: Let me read a few other verses.
SPEAKER_02: Proverbs 4, 23.
SPEAKER_02: Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.
SPEAKER_02: Proverbs 27, 19.
SPEAKER_02: As water reflects the face, so one's life reflects the heart.
SPEAKER_02: Luke 6.45.
SPEAKER_02: For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
SPEAKER_02: Did you get the picture?
SPEAKER_02: What I would like you to do is I'm not going to talk for long.
SPEAKER_02: We're going to have a time where you can bounce questions, and then you're going to have a time where we can go and think about some of these things.
SPEAKER_02: But first thing I'd like you to do is search into the deep recesses of your memory.
SPEAKER_02: And I just want you to envision what you had for dinner last night.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, go for it.
SPEAKER_02: Get in there.
SPEAKER_02: Can you taste it?
SPEAKER_02: Anyone have anything good?
SPEAKER_02: Curry?
SPEAKER_02: Did you all have this cheesy potatoes?
SPEAKER_02: Oh, were you all eating together?
SPEAKER_02: Of course.
SPEAKER_02: It's like a shitty church dinner, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, let me try a harder one.
SPEAKER_02: Um search into the deep recesses of your mind to pick up.
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be the earliest, but an early memory.
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever heard the phrase uh he couldn't drive a nail in snow?
SPEAKER_02: No, so I think I was about three or four, and I remember my dad saying that phrase.
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you're from a farming background, to drive something is to hammer it.
SPEAKER_02: So you drive a nail, and so if someone is a terrible driver, I mean you imagine hammering a nail in snow.
SPEAKER_02: Anyone can hammer a nail in snow, and so if they're a terrible driver, you say they couldn't drive a nail in snow.
SPEAKER_02: And I remember sitting hearing him say this thing, well, that sounds really hard.
SPEAKER_02: I mean, how could you drive a nail in snow?
SPEAKER_02: So that was one of my sort of that's dad, you're a little bit odd.
SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna have a go at someone for their drive.
SPEAKER_02: Um okay, uh, think back to a happy memory.
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't have to be the happiest, but one that just stands out as that was good.
SPEAKER_02: That's good.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, here's a harder one.
SPEAKER_02: One of your saddest.
SPEAKER_02: Don't have to share it, just just just pick it out.
SPEAKER_02: One of your saddest.
SPEAKER_02: Because see, see, actually, as you go through the Christian faith, so much of it is about memory and and and remembering rightly.
SPEAKER_02: You know, so when when when Moses brought the boys out of Egypt and was heading to the promised land, uh, one of the things that he kept saying is, remember, remember.
SPEAKER_02: Uh Deuteronomy 32, remember the days of old, consider the generations long past.
SPEAKER_02: Ask your father, and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.
SPEAKER_02: Okay, memory is woven into the fabric of the Christian faith.
SPEAKER_02: And as we share the Lord's Supper, do you remember the words that the Apostle Paul gives us?
SPEAKER_02: Corinthians 11.
SPEAKER_02: In the same way, after supper, he took the cup, saying, This is the cup, the new covenant in my blood.
SPEAKER_02: Do this whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.
SPEAKER_02: That whether it was Moses coming out of Egypt, whether it is Jesus in the Passover meal, that that memory is a huge thing in our Christian faith.
SPEAKER_02: Um and and not just with us, with with God.
SPEAKER_02: Um, Hebrews chapter 8, verse 12.
SPEAKER_02: For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.
SPEAKER_02: Now just push for a second what what what God means by that.
SPEAKER_02: I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.
SPEAKER_02: Does that mean if if you could have a conference with God right now and you said, um, God, has Cullen ever sinned?
SPEAKER_02: Do you think he'd scratch his head and say, I just can't remember?
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_02: I think there was some sort of skirmish a few years ago, but it's gone.
SPEAKER_02: That God doesn't have sort of some sort of spiritual amnesia.
SPEAKER_02: That the reason he forgives our wickedness and remembers our sins no more is because he remembers them in light of the cross.
SPEAKER_02: That he sees our sin in light of the cross.
SPEAKER_02: It's not because he's forgotten, it's not that God forgets, he remembers them no more because he remembers them in light of the cross.
SPEAKER_02: That actually memory in the Christian faith is massive.
SPEAKER_02: Um and there's the great African bishop who was around 1500 odd years ago, Augustine, and he had this wonderful way of taking everything that the Christian faith said about memory and putting it in this little picture.
SPEAKER_02: Now it sounds odd when we say it, okay, but run with it for a second.
SPEAKER_02: He said, memory is the stomach of the soul.
SPEAKER_02: Memory is the stomach of the soul.
SPEAKER_02: And what he means is these physical stomachs that we have, and you know, imagine days before refrigeration and freezers and all this sort of spoiled food that you could eat.
SPEAKER_02: That when you take in both good food and bad food, physically, the stomach can deal with it, processes it, breaks it up, and some is absorbed into the body and some is ejected out of the body.
SPEAKER_02: But that's what the stomach does when it's working right physically.
SPEAKER_02: You take in the good stuff, you take in the bad stuff.
SPEAKER_02: If the stomach is working right, if your physical stomach is working right, it allows the good stuff to be absorbed and the bad stuff to be shot out.
SPEAKER_02: Augustine says you have a spiritual memory.
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, a spiritual stomach.
SPEAKER_02: And it's your memory, where life throws all sorts of good stuff and bad stuff at us.
SPEAKER_02: And our memory is there to digest it, to break it down, so that the good stuff is absorbed into our soul and the bad stuff is dealt with and kicked out.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what Augustine says is the problem?
SPEAKER_02: Our stomachs are broke.
SPEAKER_02: And physically, if our stomachs were broke, it would poison our body.
SPEAKER_02: But spiritually, when our stomachs are broke, it poisons our soul.
SPEAKER_02: And do you remember those verses we read out from Proverbs?
SPEAKER_02: The purposes of a person's heart are deep waters, but one who has insight draws them out.
SPEAKER_02: Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.
SPEAKER_02: As water reflects the face, so one's life reflects the heart.
SPEAKER_02: A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart.
SPEAKER_02: For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't know most of you, and I don't know what your good memories are, I don't know what your bad memories are.
SPEAKER_02: But I do know that there are memories in there that are shaping you.
SPEAKER_02: That are setting a course for your life.
SPEAKER_02: I also know that every single one of us have spiritual stomachs that are broken.
SPEAKER_02: No one gets through this life.
SPEAKER_02: We all have the broken stomach that we take in the good and we take in the bad, but our stomachs don't deal with them right.
SPEAKER_02: And so much of the Christian faith is about remembering rightly, about being able to digest and break it down so that the good stuff is absorbed and the bad stuff is got rid of.
SPEAKER_02: This is the lad talking, and he says, How beautiful you are, my darling, oh how beautiful your eyes are doves.
SPEAKER_02: And then she says, How handsome you are, my darling, oh how charming.
SPEAKER_02: Our bed is verdant.
SPEAKER_02: And there is this wonderful picture of this double mutual gaze, where he is gazing at her and she is gazing at him.
SPEAKER_02: And it's both ways.
SPEAKER_02: It's not just that she rejoices in knowing him, but she also rejoices in being known by him.
SPEAKER_02: It's not just that she rejoices in loving him, but that she rejoices in being loved by him.
SPEAKER_02: It's not just that she sees him, but that she rejoices that she is seen by him.
SPEAKER_02: And and so often in the Christian faith we've lost this.
SPEAKER_02: Where we get half of that, where we say, um, I I need to gaze on Jesus, praise God.
SPEAKER_02: The crucified, risen, resurrected, ascended, Jesus, I need to gaze on him.
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
SPEAKER_02: Praise God.
SPEAKER_02: What we've often forgotten is that we need to rejoice that the crucified, risen, ascended Jesus gazes on us.
SPEAKER_02: And he sees us, and it is safe to be seen.
SPEAKER_02: We know that we should delight in God.
SPEAKER_02: Psalm 43.
SPEAKER_02: Then I will go to the altar of God to my God, my joy and my delight, I will praise you with lyre, O God, my God.
SPEAKER_02: Did you know that God also delights in you?
SPEAKER_02: Psalm 18.
SPEAKER_02: He brought me out into a spacious place.
SPEAKER_02: He rescued me because he delighted in me.
SPEAKER_02: I bet most of us know that we should delight in God.
SPEAKER_02: I bet most of us know that we should gaze on him and see him and know him and love him.
SPEAKER_02: And that's an amazing part of half the story.
SPEAKER_02: We should also celebrate that he gazes on us and sees us and knows us and loves us and delights in us.
SPEAKER_02: That we want to know the story of Jesus, but we also want that story to shape our story about us.
SPEAKER_02: We want to understand ourselves as He sees us because He looks on us and delights in us and see our spiritual stomachs.
SPEAKER_02: They're broken.
SPEAKER_02: And I would love to sit with every single one of you and to find out what your spiritual stomach has done with the joys and the sorrows that you have gone through.
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm telling you, it has told you a story that is neither gracious nor true.
SPEAKER_02: That you will see yourself different to how Jesus sees you, and you will go through your life with two stories.
SPEAKER_02: This is what Jesus is like, and this is what my memory has told me about me.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I would love?
SPEAKER_02: I would love the story of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02: Not to compete with this story, but to change it.
SPEAKER_02: To tell a better story.
SPEAKER_02: A more truthful story.
SPEAKER_02: A more gracious story.
SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not asking an if your stomach's broken.
SPEAKER_02: It is.
SPEAKER_02: Mine is.
SPEAKER_02: And what I would love as we we're gonna open this for a few questions, then we're gonna go think about it.
SPEAKER_02: All I wanna do is throw a pebble here to get us thinking about it.
SPEAKER_02: Um let me let me give um let me give an example.
SPEAKER_02: So um imagine rural Irish farmer, let's call him George.
SPEAKER_02: Um you meet George, he's even older than I am, and he's a wife and a heap of kids.
SPEAKER_02: And you meet him as the divorce proceedings are in full flow.
SPEAKER_02: It's been bubbling away for 15 years of difficult marriage.
SPEAKER_02: The wife has finally had enough.
SPEAKER_02: And she says, for 15 years I've been married to the man I love, and I've been a single wife.
SPEAKER_02: I've been a single mother.
SPEAKER_02: He's never here.
SPEAKER_02: It's not the farming.
SPEAKER_02: All of our family, all of our neighbors are farmers, and they they they make it work, but he is literally never here.
SPEAKER_02: And we have had it out over the last 15 years, and he says, I know, I know, and I know he loves us.
SPEAKER_02: But he is never here.
SPEAKER_02: And and and it'll blow up, and for a couple of weeks, he'll he'll he'll find a way to a kid's birthday party, or he'll find a way on a Saturday to spend with us, but after a few weeks it just goes back where he he's married to the farm.
SPEAKER_02: It's not because they have to, the other farmers make it work, they make time for their family.
SPEAKER_02: It's not that we're in some sort of unique situation, but whatever it is, George, he will just not be a husband, he will not be a father.
SPEAKER_02: And I've had enough.
SPEAKER_02: I'm gone.
SPEAKER_02: And all their money's invested in the farm, the divorce is going to happen, the farm will have to be sold, the whole thing's a mess.
SPEAKER_02: And you talk to George, like, George, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_02: Just you know, you're a husband, you're a father, go and spend time with him.
SPEAKER_02: You know what he says?
SPEAKER_02: I want to.
SPEAKER_02: And I and I try, and we go through we go through the blow-ups, and I try so hard, but I don't know what happens.
SPEAKER_02: But one day I, you know, a few weeks have gone by and I'm back in the tractor.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm and I've tried and and I've I've asked for forgiveness and I've tried to change, but no matter what I do, and I don't want to lose my wife.
SPEAKER_02: I love her, and I don't want to lose my kids, and I don't want to lose my farm.
SPEAKER_02: But I have been trying and it just isn't working.
SPEAKER_02: What do you say to George?
SPEAKER_02: You give them a pile of smart targets and say, well, okay, this day you gotta do a date night, and okay, uh, birthdays are on the schedule.
SPEAKER_02: It's not a question, you just have to you you give them a list of stuff to do.
SPEAKER_02: Might work, it won't.
SPEAKER_02: But you you could try it.
SPEAKER_02: Or you could see that the heart, the purposes of a person's heart are deep waters.
SPEAKER_02: The one who has insight draws them out.
SPEAKER_02: As a water reflects the face, so one's life reflects the heart.
SPEAKER_02: Above all else, guard your heart for everything you do flows from it.
SPEAKER_02: Do you all know about George?
SPEAKER_02: Now he he grew up on that farm.
SPEAKER_02: That was his father's farm.
SPEAKER_02: And he was uh he was in a family of boys, and he was the best farmer.
SPEAKER_02: And his father was a good Christian lad, but had gone through a season in farming where you just couldn't make a living out of it.
SPEAKER_02: And his father hated himself for it.
SPEAKER_02: And they never had enough money, and he would work every minute that was given to him, and he never had enough to make things work for his family.
SPEAKER_02: But he spent themselves every moment that he could.
SPEAKER_02: But bitterness got into his father's heart.
SPEAKER_02: And anyone that he saw having an easy ride, either because they were born into money or because they were playing the welfare system or whatever it was, he hated them.
SPEAKER_02: Because here he was breaking himself, spending every moment that he could work, and nothing was ever enough, and his father hated himself for it.
SPEAKER_02: But he always taught his boys to work hard.
SPEAKER_02: And then one day they were driving uh the uh the John Deere on the roads, and there was a local Gaelic match on, and the queue was queued back, and there was this BMW car in front of them, and and and George's dad was lit, and George was in the cab with his father, and his father lost it.
SPEAKER_02: And he pointed at the BMW and he said, That's what's destroying our country.
SPEAKER_02: Waisters like that.
SPEAKER_02: And there was disgust in his eyes, and George saw it.
SPEAKER_02: Wasn't the last time, wasn't the first time, but it was the most intense that George had seen it.
SPEAKER_02: There was disgust in his father's eyes.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what George fears more than anything else in the world?
SPEAKER_02: That his father would look on him with those eyes.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what George was like as a teenager?
SPEAKER_02: That was when he was seven.
SPEAKER_02: George didn't bother with friendships in school because the friendships happened on Saturdays, and instead of going to be with friends on Saturdays, he would be on the farm.
SPEAKER_02: Instead of coming in in the evenings and watching a bit of TV with his other brothers, he would stay out on the farm.
SPEAKER_02: Instead of going on summer camps or on holidays, he would say to the family, no, no, let's just stay for the whole summer on the farm.
SPEAKER_02: He spent his whole life there.
SPEAKER_02: Because he was running from somebody.
SPEAKER_02: Because he never wanted his father to look on him the way his father looked on that man in the BMW.
SPEAKER_02: And George has spent his whole life running from that look and trying to prove to himself that he's the good son.
SPEAKER_02: And he loves his wife.
SPEAKER_02: And he loves his kids.
SPEAKER_02: And every time that he's getting convicted that he's not treating them right, he says, Right, I'll go and have a date night.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what happens on those date nights?
SPEAKER_02: Well, the first Time he's up for it, he's like, Yes, this is the woman that I love, I treasure her.
SPEAKER_02: Do you know what happens the second time?
SPEAKER_02: He's looking at the door, and it's not that he thinks his father will physically walk in.
SPEAKER_02: But there's only one safe to place to be, and that's in the tractor.
SPEAKER_02: Because when his father sees him there, his father has eyes of pride and respect.
SPEAKER_02: But what if his father walked in and saw me having a date night instead of working?
SPEAKER_02: Would he look with those eyes of disgust?
SPEAKER_02: Now, do you think if you asked George, why can't you do a birthday party?
SPEAKER_02: Do you think he'd say, Oh, well, when I was seven?
SPEAKER_02: He hasn't got a clue.
SPEAKER_02: He has not got a clue.
SPEAKER_02: He just knows that when he tries, his feet get up and walk out the door.
SPEAKER_02: He doesn't know why.
SPEAKER_02: He doesn't know why when these children that he loves so much and he buys them the birthday present and he's there blowing out the cake that he has one eye on the door.
SPEAKER_02: He doesn't know why.
SPEAKER_02: But his whole life is being shipped because some muck came his way and his spiritual stomach did not know how to process it.
SPEAKER_02: How could he?
SPEAKER_02: He was seven.
SPEAKER_02: And his memory has processed that in a way that has absorbed poison into his soul.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm telling you, all the date-night plans in the world is not going to get him off that tractor.
SPEAKER_02: One of the things the proverb says, the purposes of a person's heart are deep waters.
SPEAKER_02: But the one who is inside draws them out.
SPEAKER_02: As a water reflects the face, so one's life reflects their heart.
SPEAKER_02: George's entire life has been shaped by how he interpreted that memory.
SPEAKER_02: And what we want George to do is to see that Jesus sees him.
SPEAKER_02: And to let Jesus rewrite that story to make it a better story, a more gracious story, a more truthful story.
SPEAKER_02: Someone needs to tell George that what he saw in his father's eyes at seven years old was not about him.
SPEAKER_02: It was about his own father's pain.
SPEAKER_02: That what he saw as a seven-year-old kid was nothing to do with George, and everything to do with a father who was trying his best and hated himself, and the root of bitterness had got in his heart, and on that day had jumped from his heart into George's eyes and into his soul.
SPEAKER_02: But it was not about George.
SPEAKER_02: And George needs to see the crucified risen Savior Jesus Christ walk him through that.
SPEAKER_02: And tell him a better story, a more truthful story, a more gracious story.
SPEAKER_02: Because until he does, he can try and fix his behavior all he wants.
SPEAKER_02: But he's going to have one eye on that door.
SPEAKER_02: And it will be a matter of time before we're back in the old cycle.
SPEAKER_02: I'd love you to hit me with questions.
SPEAKER_02: And then I'd love us to take some time to think.
SPEAKER_02: So here's his questions first.
unknown: Go.
SPEAKER_07: Yes, just on the topic of memory.
SPEAKER_07: Would you have anything to say about the dangers of nostalgia as a Christian or whether it's a good thing to be nostalgic and sentimental about the past or like it?
SPEAKER_02: It depends if by nostalgia you mean it's laden with oversentiment.
SPEAKER_02: I think memory is good where it is truthful and gracious.
SPEAKER_02: If it's idealizing the past in an unrealistic way, that's poison too.
SPEAKER_02: That a bit like with Hebrews 8, God does not have amnesia, he remembers rightly.
SPEAKER_02: Because he remembers in light of the cross.
SPEAKER_02: And so when we look back on fond things, we want to remember them rightly in light of the cross.
SPEAKER_02: When George looks back on that BMW incident, I want him to remember rightly and in light of the cross, which he hasn't remembered rightly.
SPEAKER_03: Go ahead, give us give us thoughts.
SPEAKER_06: They're never completely accurate.
SPEAKER_06: Like we'll never remember anything completely right.
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
SPEAKER_02: And and there is no sense in which we're ever going to do this perfectly.
SPEAKER_02: We will never purify our hearts and our memories perfectly.
SPEAKER_02: No clue why his family is being destroyed.
SPEAKER_03: Give us more thoughts.
SPEAKER_07: Well, how would you work with George?
SPEAKER_02: How would you work with someone who's there's there's two questions.
SPEAKER_02: One is how do you work with George?
SPEAKER_02: The other is how do you work with seven-year-old George?
SPEAKER_02: I don't know where the kids are at the minute, right?
SPEAKER_02: But they're getting to the age where they are forming stories, their memories are processing, their spiritual stomachs are kicking in, and they, in front of our faces, are forming stories that will shape them for the rest of their days.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm a parent.
SPEAKER_02: One of my biggest jobs is to watch those stories happening.
SPEAKER_02: And it's not a case of trying to stop a bad story happening.
SPEAKER_02: The bad stories will happen.
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't matter how good a family you're from, doesn't matter how good a parent you are, the bad stories are going to happen.
SPEAKER_02: What I want to teach my girls is to see them for what they are and to spend their life seeing them and retelling them in light of God's grace.
SPEAKER_02: And so with George, and let me tell you, that's really hard.
SPEAKER_02: It's really hard, even when you have the relatively blank canvas and it's happening in real time.
SPEAKER_02: When you've multiplied 30 years of that story being told, it's really hard.
SPEAKER_02: And so one of the things, um if if you're asking practically, one of the things you have to be careful of is I asked you to remember a memory that was really sad.
SPEAKER_02: I do that, remember at the start?
SPEAKER_02: I do that with fear and trembling.
SPEAKER_02: Because if you've been through some pretty bad stuff, that can just be overwhelming.
SPEAKER_02: And so with George, you have to be, I can't, I can't walk up to George, listen to him for three hours and say, got it.
SPEAKER_02: Here's the problem.
SPEAKER_02: Because it would make it worse.
SPEAKER_02: Um and so it's um it's it's working with him at whatever pace we can, but what I want to get to is for George, can you see that that your memory as a seven-year-old kid is shaping so much?
SPEAKER_02: I want us to retell that story.
SPEAKER_02: And and so with um uh with with George, um I want to walk him through as if Jesus was walking with him to say, um George, I want us to go back to that tractor and I want us to interpret it right.
SPEAKER_02: See that look, that look you've been running from your whole life, that was not about you.
SPEAKER_02: Your father loved you and he hated himself.
SPEAKER_02: And he was trying his best, but bitterness got in there.
SPEAKER_02: And and George, um, every time you go with your family, you're going to be scared of your father's look.
SPEAKER_02: And every time you feel that, George, here's what I want to say, here's what I want you to say.
SPEAKER_02: My heavenly father sees me and it is safe to be seen.
SPEAKER_02: And see, every time you're at a birthday party and you see yourself looking at the door, I want you to tell yourself, my heavenly father sees me and it is safe to be seen.
SPEAKER_02: I am where he wants me to be.
SPEAKER_02: Because knowing that the story exists doesn't make it go away.
SPEAKER_02: For George, this is a lifelong, he is going to have to unpick this story.
SPEAKER_02: And it's and it's deep, deep in the soul, which means if I even if I explain it to him, that doesn't stop it being real.
SPEAKER_02: And so you have to give him the tools.
SPEAKER_02: Here's when the lies are going to kick in.
SPEAKER_02: When you have your date night, you're going to have one eye on the door, and I want you to remind yourself your Heavenly Father sees you and it's safe to be seen, and you're exactly where you're supposed to be.
SPEAKER_02: Sit on it.
SPEAKER_02: And giving him tools to retell that story.
SPEAKER_02: A better story, a more gracious story, a more truthful story.
SPEAKER_02: Hit us with more thoughts.
SPEAKER_04: From George's point of view, so let's say he doesn't want to admit to other people.
SPEAKER_04: Would there be any way of kind of introspection for him to self-diagnose?
SPEAKER_02: Here's the thing of um, do you remember the purposes of a person's heart are deep waters, but the one who is inside draws them out, is flipping hard.
SPEAKER_02: Um I know George, he no, he he doesn't stand a chance.
SPEAKER_02: He hasn't got a clue what's going on with him.
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you're talking to someone who is particularly spiritual aware and knows themselves, I want to say there's at least a chance.
SPEAKER_02: Um but it's a chance, it's an uphill battle, and it's one of the beautiful things of God's people.
SPEAKER_02: That in the same way, you know, if you want the whole council of God taught, you say to Mark, please be our preacher, because that's really hard.
SPEAKER_02: Um, let me tell you, it is easier to unpack Ephesians than it is to execute someone's soul.
SPEAKER_02: And and so I want to say yes in principle.
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure I've met many people who could do it.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and that is where the people of God come in, where there's a reason Proverbs says, but the one who is inside draw, we're talking about people who have, you know, when it comes to this, there are people who have skill and sophistication to handle this in a beautiful way.
SPEAKER_02: Well, to have that same skill and sophistication in handling someone's soul is really, really hard.
SPEAKER_02: Um and and it's why we need the people of God.
SPEAKER_02: And and here's the thing: ever since the Garden of Eden, Adam, where are you?
SPEAKER_02: I was hiding because I was naked.
SPEAKER_02: Oh, we're all hiding, and we are scared to be seen, and particularly by God, but also by other people.
SPEAKER_02: And and and this is the amazing thing about the gospel of um it is safe to be seen by our Heavenly Father, and but often the same way we we need preachers to help us who have the skill and sophistication with God's word.
SPEAKER_02: We need people who have insight into the deep recesses of our soul to help us.
SPEAKER_03: Give us more thoughts, questions.
unknown: Like, what are the good avenues of doing that?
unknown: Like, is it going to a therapist?
unknown: Is it going to like a doctor?
SPEAKER_08: Is it going to smaller spiritual friends?
SPEAKER_08: Because I feel like personally, if I was in a position for someone opening up to me, then I would feel like afraid that I'll make things worse by falling there and then not being able to be here.
SPEAKER_02: Totally.
SPEAKER_02: Because see those memories that have been buried, they've been buried for a reason, because they are too painful to engage.
SPEAKER_02: Now they don't die, they fester and become a zombie monster destroying your life.
SPEAKER_02: But at least you don't feel them.
SPEAKER_02: That a lot of these memories are unbearable.
SPEAKER_02: And yes, if you lift the tomb on that, and you're not ready to handle it, and because of that, most of those tombs are just closed.
SPEAKER_02: And the pain just goes there, numbed below the surface.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and and and so uh, yes, finding those people, and and the best way I can describe it is you know, you know someone who can handle God's word.
SPEAKER_02: You see it, you know it.
SPEAKER_02: Well, you know when you find someone who can have that same skill and sophistication with someone's heart.
SPEAKER_02: Um, and in days gone by, like um therapy is a relatively new thing.
SPEAKER_02: When I say new, I mean I'm old.
SPEAKER_02: So um and one of the places that therapists went to see this was the Christians of the past, because they were the ones who did the cure for the soul.
SPEAKER_02: And it's one of the things that our particular generation of Christians think that's what we contract out.
SPEAKER_02: And because of that, we're not very good at doing it anymore.
SPEAKER_02: And and and so, yes, sometimes it it does mean, but there's the understanding that if you go to a secular third, they won't understand sin and they won't understand grace.
SPEAKER_02: But they have developed some skills, at least to uncover what's going on.
SPEAKER_02: And what kills me is that they looked to us in centuries gone by to say, look at these boys, they're actually they're actually dealing with people's souls.
SPEAKER_02: Um uh and so I would love this to be more common than it is, but that sense of we've settled for a lot of dealing with behavior.
SPEAKER_02: Right, George, go to this party, do this day at night, do this, this, this, and this.
SPEAKER_02: When uh the purposes of a person's heart are deep waters.
SPEAKER_02: As water reflects the face, so one's life reflects the heart.
SPEAKER_03: Give us more thoughts.
SPEAKER_05: When we don't have to know why it would have done it.
SPEAKER_05: How does a pickle in order to come up on somebody that would do it?
SPEAKER_05: How do we approach them?
SPEAKER_05: How do we have students in scripture being able to unlock that Pandora's box for this person?
SPEAKER_05: It is somebody named that's a big skeptical about scripture globally.
SPEAKER_05: Where do we approach how do we approach that?
SPEAKER_02: There's a few things in there.
SPEAKER_02: So one prayer's got to be at the heart of it.
SPEAKER_02: Number one, for someone to help him see it, but even if he sees it, that doesn't matter a jot unless he believes that the gospel is the Bam of Gilead for wounded souls.
SPEAKER_02: Okay?
SPEAKER_02: But number one, with George in particular, he thinks his life has fallen apart and it's a mystery to him.
SPEAKER_02: What I want to get to across to George is this is a day of hope.
SPEAKER_02: Because this isn't the end of the story.
SPEAKER_02: This could be the start of him and his family actually experiencing freedom.
SPEAKER_02: And I want to get hope pumping through his veins that actually this isn't the end of his story.
SPEAKER_02: This could be the start.
SPEAKER_02: Because there has been stuff poisoning his soul that he's unaware of.
SPEAKER_02: And today, as his marriage is, is the papers are being filed, this can be fixed.
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if his marriage will last.
SPEAKER_02: I hope it will, but this could be the start of a freedom for George he has never known.
SPEAKER_02: And I hope with his family.
SPEAKER_02: And the first thing I want to do is inject hope.
SPEAKER_02: And and and and for that to be soaked in prayer, both that we can help him figure out what is the problem, but even if we figure that out, unless he's ready, you can explain it in all its clarity, and it will not do a jot unless he is in that, do you know, the the broken and contrite spirit, that humility before God that says, I I want to be seen, and I want to grow, and I want to be the person you want me to be.
SPEAKER_02: Um and and and and as with everything, you know, the Philippians 2, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to act.
SPEAKER_02: Where I I want to work out with fear and trembling how to help George and praying that God will be at work both to will and to act.
SPEAKER_02: But I don't just want to say, George, I'll pray for you, off you go.
SPEAKER_02: Nor do I just want to say, right, George, I've got all the answers for you, A, B, C, off you go.
SPEAKER_02: I want it soaked in prayer.
SPEAKER_02: And and I want him to talk to someone who has the insights into the deep waters of his heart.
SPEAKER_03: Give us more thoughts.
SPEAKER_07: I'm interested in George's life.
SPEAKER_07: Because the story is saying George doesn't even know that everything he's dealing with is from that many seven-year-old board.
SPEAKER_07: Now, this is a wife who loves her husband and wants to leave her mind for the story.
SPEAKER_07: She also doesn't really know that the baggage she's dealing with is the function of the seven-year-old boys.
SPEAKER_07: So, how does she also find herself?
SPEAKER_07: Because the truth is that's a memory that has come to her.
SPEAKER_07: She's going to work out of memory, it doesn't work, and that's a memory that she's carrying with her.
SPEAKER_07: Which if she doesn't manage well, also turns into another story.
SPEAKER_07: So the question is, she also needs to have some finding and some understanding about how to deal with this.
SPEAKER_07: Divorce is always the easiest way out because you feel like I'm dumb and it's important.
SPEAKER_07: But it's deeper than that because she's working in the memory.
SPEAKER_07: So if you could just throw some light on how a judge's wife needs to understand, that it could be the reverse, it could be the wife who has a baggage and judge you.
SPEAKER_07: But just, you know, since we're putting characters to the same, how you could when you're when you're this other person dealing with something that you feel like you have enough excuse to justify why you've been working with it.
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
SPEAKER_07: How as a Christian you also need to dig deep to get enough information because just the same way John doesn't even know, it's the same way she knows.
SPEAKER_07: So she needs to be able to find to gain that knowledge, know how to also understand what is happening.
SPEAKER_07: So sometimes when things be concrete, that we need to step away from me, ourselves, and get the understanding there so that even if eventually she wants to work in me, she wants to be without the bad memory.
SPEAKER_02: I love that because we're talking about a seven-year-old George, there's also a nine-year-old Sarah.
SPEAKER_02: And some of these squabbles, to anyone looking in, is like, come on, just sort it out.
SPEAKER_02: But you can have a nine-year-old George squabbling with a a seven-year-old George squabbling with a nine year old Sarah and and it's the baggage that both of them have brought to that marriage.
SPEAKER_02: And and and all the stuff that Sarah has been through is loaded in on top.
SPEAKER_02: And and what I'm what I'm pleading with is the behavior is so far downstream.
SPEAKER_02: You know, if all we do is deal with George and Sarah's behavior, it's not gonna work.
SPEAKER_02: The heart is too powerful.
SPEAKER_02: And if it isn't dealt with, you can get compliance for a while.
SPEAKER_02: You know, you can tick the boxes, I had to do this and I've done it.
SPEAKER_02: But if you don't win the heart, the game is up.
SPEAKER_02: Um and and so I I want to ask that question of both of everyone in the picture, and not just Sarah, but the kids.
SPEAKER_02: Because the kids are forming a story in front of their eyes.
SPEAKER_02: Hit us with more thoughts.
SPEAKER_03: A few more minutes for questions before we we we we go have a think.
SPEAKER_06: So with the children, a lot of the memory of born in the children for the children process, those memories.
SPEAKER_06: How can you how can you ensure that the young age and process of treatments of God and how change those members are born if those children be it you know um Christian families or non-Christian families, have involved that before?
SPEAKER_02: Um we we now live in the countryside, we have a big tree, one big tree.
SPEAKER_02: Um when we first moved there, it was a building site.
SPEAKER_02: Uh I have three daughters.
SPEAKER_02: Um I I took my two oldest daughters to climate, and they are they're built like gazelles.
SPEAKER_02: They they they are agile, you know, they they have good footwork from their boxing, you know.
SPEAKER_02: They they they should have been able to do this super.
SPEAKER_02: Um and I brought the oldest in the middle, and me and the oldest were talking as we were walking to the tree, and and then uh as we were talking, we turned around, and the middle girl was at the top, right?
SPEAKER_02: And they were, you know, they were they were planning to climb together and all that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_02: And I looked at my oldest daughter, who's who's very agile, something happened.
SPEAKER_02: I said, right, go go go chase her.
SPEAKER_02: And she got to the first branch, which was only like a foot off the ground, and fair enough, the next branch was a bit of a stretch, but something happened where this agile mountain goat was clumsy in all left feet and and wouldn't take any risks, wouldn't extend the shoulders, and couldn't get to the second branch.
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Well, you know, just get on and do it.
SPEAKER_02: And the more I said get on and do it, the worse she got at it.
SPEAKER_02: And and the the the daughter up the tree was like, come on, you you can do it.
SPEAKER_02: And and and she kept slipping, and and and I'm not one to encourage them giving up, but like she was now in floods of tears, and it her her agility was getting worse and worse.
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, let's just let's just stop.
SPEAKER_02: Let's just stop.
SPEAKER_02: Um and and and let's go let's go have a have a talk.
SPEAKER_02: And I tried to calm out because this was just ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02: And and I and I I went I had a wee talk with her, and I said, Can I tell you what I just saw?
SPEAKER_02: And she said, Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: I said, Here's what I saw.
SPEAKER_02: I saw two amazing tree climbers go to a really tricky tree, and I saw one of them scoot up.
SPEAKER_02: And the one that was left at the bottom, when they saw the other one scoot up, I saw a weight go on her shoulders, and I heard this little voice in her head that said, My younger sister just did it like that.
SPEAKER_02: What if I can't do it?
SPEAKER_02: What if I can't get up as fast?
SPEAKER_02: What if I what if I can't get up as fast?
SPEAKER_02: What if I can't get up at all?
SPEAKER_02: And then that amazing tree climber went to the first branch, and that we voice was screaming so hard that she couldn't even focus on her feet, and so she slipped and she couldn't get.
SPEAKER_02: And then the wee voice said, I told you so.
SPEAKER_02: You shouldn't have even tried.
SPEAKER_02: And I saw that amazing tree climber robbed of her skill because that voice wouldn't shut up.
SPEAKER_02: And she was sitting looking at me with these eyes like lasers, and I said, You okay?
SPEAKER_02: She said, Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And we went off and we were cutting sticks for the rest of the day.
SPEAKER_02: I was chainsaw and she was she was carrying them.
SPEAKER_02: And and when she got me alone, this was hours later, she said, Daddy, how did you know what it said?
SPEAKER_02: And like like this was hours later.
SPEAKER_02: I was like, um, hi, what said?
SPEAKER_02: And she said, The voice, how did you know what it said?
SPEAKER_02: Like you said the words that it said to me, how did you know?
SPEAKER_02: I said, That's that's dead easy.
SPEAKER_02: Agatha we voice too, says all sorts of muck to me.
SPEAKER_02: She's like, Who is it?
SPEAKER_02: Is it the devil?
SPEAKER_02: No, it's not the devil.
SPEAKER_02: It's the part of us that's scared, it's the part of us that thinks we ought to be our own little gods, it's the part of us that that wants to destroy, it's the part of us that's scared.
SPEAKER_02: I say, you gotta you gotta tell that voice that thank you for your opinion.
SPEAKER_02: But I know that my God has made me and given me gifts, and I know he wants me to climb that tree, and if I slip, that's okay, because the next time I won't slip is bad.
SPEAKER_02: And I want you to listen to God's voice rather than that little voice, because see that little voice, you can't trust it, because it's scared.
SPEAKER_02: She said, Okay, we went, we we kept on going at the sticks.
SPEAKER_02: Again, hours passed, it was starting to get dark, and she came and said, when no one else was around, Daddy, can we go back to the tree?
SPEAKER_02: I said, sweetie, listen, I don't know if I have the emotional energy for that tree.
SPEAKER_02: And she she looked me dead in the eye and said, I won't go back to the tree.
SPEAKER_02: And and I said, Okay, and she says, stopwatch.
SPEAKER_06: Oh, stopwatch.
SPEAKER_02: And I hit the stopwatch, and in 31 seconds she was at the top.
SPEAKER_02: And I, much slower, climbed up.
SPEAKER_02: I said, You did something really hard.
SPEAKER_02: She goes, I know I climbed the tree.
SPEAKER_02: I said, No, that was easy.
SPEAKER_02: You told that wee voice to shut its mouth and you listened to God's voice.
SPEAKER_02: So that we tree, that big tree is now called the Tree of Courage.
SPEAKER_02: Because those wee stories are forming in front of our eyes, and I want to teach my three daughters to allow God's story to retell those stories in a better, more truthful, more gracious way.
SPEAKER_02: And uh, and so like I do um Bible time with them at night time, and and part of that is is is you know the big Bible story Bible where we where we talk through um the story of the gospel, but then I want to take that story of the gospel and apply it to their story.
SPEAKER_02: I'll say anybody's wee voice talking to them today?
SPEAKER_02: What muck was it saying?
SPEAKER_02: Actually, Daddy, this happened.
SPEAKER_02: My Wee Voice was saying that.
SPEAKER_02: Is that true?
SPEAKER_02: No, is it gracious?
SPEAKER_02: No, let's retell that story.
SPEAKER_02: Um because those stories will form.
SPEAKER_02: I I love my girls, those girls are going to get hurt by me in some sort of way.
SPEAKER_02: I wish I could stop it, I can't.
SPEAKER_02: You don't make it through this life without getting hurt.
SPEAKER_02: But I want to give them the skills to see those stories for what they are lies.
SPEAKER_02: And I want them to have the skills to retell them.
SPEAKER_03: Give us some thoughts.
SPEAKER_07: In language maybe comments, please think it's you're gonna follow me.
SPEAKER_07: Also, I think like to an extent to play that move.
SPEAKER_07: And what you're quite how would you play that move or not?
unknown: You have people who have seen George and I just sometimes it comes in to the struggle.
unknown: How would we play that in?
SPEAKER_07: And make sure that we don't just like images.
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, they are all scenes.
SPEAKER_07: How do we not because sometimes unconsciously we only make matters?
SPEAKER_07: So, how do we play that in a train of God?
SPEAKER_02: And the best way I can describe this is I think kids are asking three questions.
SPEAKER_02: Am I safe?
SPEAKER_02: Am I valued?
SPEAKER_02: Do I belong?
SPEAKER_02: And those are questions that the gospel answers in spade loads.
SPEAKER_02: Am I safe?
SPEAKER_02: The great pep talk of scripture, I am with you.
SPEAKER_02: When God's people's back is to the wall, that is the pep talk that comes out.
SPEAKER_02: Emmanuel, God is with you.
SPEAKER_02: Do kids feel safe?
SPEAKER_02: Do they feel valued?
SPEAKER_02: You are fearfully and wonderfully made.
SPEAKER_02: God delights in you.
SPEAKER_02: Do they actually feel valued?
SPEAKER_02: And the third one is do they belong?
SPEAKER_02: That great covenant, I will be their God and they will be my people.
SPEAKER_02: And when I look at my daughters, when I look at the kids in church, I know it's not a question.
SPEAKER_02: I know they are asking those three questions.
SPEAKER_02: And when she was at the bottom of the tree and she saw her sister go up, what is it that she starts to say?
SPEAKER_02: I'm rubbish.
SPEAKER_02: I couldn't do that.
SPEAKER_02: My little sister has shown I'm and I want her to see that she is valuable and precious in God's sight.
SPEAKER_02: And she doesn't have to be the same as her sister, nor does she have to be crushed if her sister does something better than her.
SPEAKER_02: And so with the kids in, um, you know, we do our kids' group on a Friday.
SPEAKER_02: I want to watch when we're playing games, because I will see with kids' body language, a voice just kicked in.
SPEAKER_02: You know, we're doing Nerf guns and we're trying to shoot targets, and one of the kids misses, and you see the little voice shows itself in body language.
SPEAKER_02: That's the kid I want to talk to afterwards.
SPEAKER_02: Because that wee voice is starting to tell a little story.
SPEAKER_02: That they do everything wrong, everything they touch is wrong.
SPEAKER_02: Everybody else could do it, but I couldn't do it.
SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's it's watching for those of um it is not a question of if that if you could see a little bubble above those kids' heads, it would break your heart what they are saying about themselves, and it's not needing that little bubble, it's watching them and seeing something's happening.
SPEAKER_02: I want to speak into that bubble that's happening.
SPEAKER_02: But here's the thing if we can't do this for ourselves, it's gonna be very hard to do it for anyone else.
SPEAKER_02: And so I um I do a training course with clergy, and one of the doctrine modules I get them to do is a module on Augustine, the stomach guy.
SPEAKER_02: And I ask them to write a theological essay on what has shaped their heart.
SPEAKER_02: And let me tell you, you would cry your eyes out.
SPEAKER_02: And these are leaders of God's people who have been through such muck and are trying to process why their stomach, their spiritual stomach, has poisoned their soul.
SPEAKER_02: Um and we get a chance to do it with the kids, but if we can't do it with ourselves, we're gonna struggle to do it for anyone else.
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