Pop Art, Design & Line Quality with Mark George

Interview with artist Mark George. We talk about the subject matters that compel him, his struggle with the trend of impermanence, an early obsession with line quality, how humans are emotional and plastic and isn't. The relationship between real people and advertising, human imperfection against the demands of design, and the evolution of his artistic process over time as well as his contribution to pop art in general. We discuss everything from his early assemblage work to his no-signature required fine artwork to surviving capitalism by enjoying sunsets. We also specifically talk about his figurative work, black and white series, landscapes series, and collaborations with Tony Rodrigues.  

Season 2 of Floridation discusses art and culture in Northeast Florida with a different artist or culture maker each episode.

Thanks for putting a little a Florida in you. Y'all come back now, hear?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today we're excited to talk to artist Mark George. Mark George from Jacksonville, Florida. From Jacksonville, Florida. I'm John. I'm Will. This is Fluoridation. We're here today with artist Mark George.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Thanks for joining us, Mark. Thank you for having me. And I was telling John earlier, it's so nice to you know be here and not worry that I'm talking someone's head off.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Yeah. It's the point here. Yeah, we'll we'll appreciate it if you do so.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

So uh you're an artist.

Introducing Mark George, painter

unknown 0:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Uh what kind of work do you do? So I am a painter. When I see a Mark George piece, I know it. Um it's distinct. Many of your pieces, not all, I know like we said earlier, like you've you've gone through different phases, you've done landscapes, you've done portraiture. But there is sort of uh in a lot of the earlier pieces this sort of vignette quality. Like there's someone captured in some idealistic version of life.

SPEAKER_04 1:22

They're usually on the verge of tears, though, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Idealized, not necessarily meaning happy. You know what I mean? Idealized in like the the it's they're like beautiful, perfect people weeping.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Um, and almost like thin line, almost almost like uh caricature-ish.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah. Well, that kind of goes that directly the whole emotion thing kind of goes back to how can we present pop art in a way that does not feature just the whole plastic, so to speak. Um, you know, like here's a smile, here's you know, and it's practical, it's used for advertising typically in these illustrations and stuff. But the idea of all these other emotions being just as beautiful as a smile, which is way beautiful, you know, like hey, happiness, this is great, this is what it's all about. But wow, look at the start with of sadness or anxiety, you know, what it does to your face basically, and that emotion, you know, and how it's captured is a really neat little life experience to see and witness. And here's, you know, a representation of it. And it's wow, let's not just present it in this, you know, I don't know, I don't want to go so far as to say, I mean, it's practical, advertising's great, you know, I love all that stuff, but you know, the psychology of it's pretty basic. So let's I think where you make it fine art is to take that and you know, of course, do something different with it, you know, but to specifically here to do something where you take something that was typically presented in a you know lifeless manner, let's say, and to give it, you know, a little bit of life and a story and an actual bit of substance that's behind it.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

And yeah, I'm curious. I I wanna I want to talk about that. It seems like subject matter is like really like foreground for you when you when you when you work on any piece, right? Like kind of the thing that brought you there, the deeper dialogue that you want to have with the subject matter is um is is what what really drives you. That's what I I've heard you. That's what I feel like you've been talking about a lot here. So what brought you to um to this way of conveying your vision, both the the medium of the the image that you're uh that you're painting, but also the medium of the surface that you paint it on. Like what what is the mess like you're talking a lot about uh plasticity. Yes, and your paintings do have a plastic quality. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Tell me a little bit about that. That's kind of how I landed on that word. So where I'm at at this point is expressing the idea that a lot of the things that seem to make up the majority of a person's you know, existence at this point in time have to do with survival and how well you do it at your job. And that is your whole existence. And in that hot pursuit for the Almighty Dollar, you have lost complete touch with all of these wonderful life experiences and emotions, and you have become a plastic person. You have chased this Kardashian lifestyle to the extent that you have no personality whatsoever, and you have assumed the role of someone in the photograph you saw on the web somewhere on your phone or whatever, and you have completely detached from who you are altogether and become a whole different a brand, a lesser being. Exactly. Well, you have you're not embracing who you are, but you're becoming something else. You're assimilating, you know. Yeah, you're assimilate's a good word, maybe. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

I mean, even just to tack on to that, just like the way that so many people that are on Instagram that are famous that you've never heard of, how they all get the same plastic surgery to look like a Kardashian. Like, you know, acid implants and everything. I mean, it really is just like an assimilation from start to, yeah. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, it's yeah, I mean, there you go, point, you know, case in point. But I mean, there's a lot going on outside of that, and I in this you know, kind of discrete way, I I suppose, like

Impermanence is trending

SPEAKER_01 6:12

here we are using this, you know, basically this material at this point to become the bane of our existence. Let's talk about plastics and microplastics. Yeah. And it's not a good thing. And that's basically representing the temporariness of this whole situation that is our life and our existence. So we uh in turn uh have embraced subscriptions and uh contract jobs and fast food and disposable razors.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

And this is and this is all impermanence. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

And embracing this to the point to where like you forget about what a real existence is because all these things have taken such a forefront, you only understand temporariness and uh those things are temporary and they go away, and that means everything that you become goes away as well, and you're nothing at all. After this is all if that was all removed, let's just say, from your life, what would your existence be? Like you said, you had committed so much to a brand or whatever, or to this, you know, shape of a butt that you had your you know ass formed into, you know. Anyway.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

Yeah, I'd I totally vibe what you're saying with subscriptions, and it almost sounds like uh ad for that rocket money where they're telling you that you they'll check out how many subscriptions you no longer need that are paying for it. But just yeah, contract where I totally follow what you're saying, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Yeah. So the idea of suggesting that by putting it on that material, you know, is is a a background kind of type thing, but that's you know,

Plasticity as subject matter & medium

SPEAKER_01 8:04

so just this is like a corrugated roofing material. It is, yeah. Um, you know, that in itself, you know, that's one way to look at the actual tangible, you know, finished work, the product.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Well, it feels like a veneer, right? It feels like a facade.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Um and I think that feels like it correlates with what you're saying. Like there are these honest emotions that are locked inside of this sort of uh piece of plastic.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Polyvonyl chloride specifically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's all like it's um well, I mean, non-art materials and using that is not a new thing, but I've been doing that in that style since 2002. So at that point, you know, shortly before, um discovering big box hardware stores. So, you know, we had our local hardware sources, which is a beautiful thing, and the sad thing at this point, because there's way less of that because of these big box stores. So like Curry Thomas. Exactly. Yeah, remember Scotty's and Jones's really cool stuff. But and that was your hardware store. So the fascination of going in there and seeing all these things you'd have to like, you know, have shipped to you or readily accessible, you know. Yeah. And to, you know, just look at all these, you know, building materials. And the reason I was there is because I was using um found materials to create assemblages and installations. So we were looking for oversized novelty, you know, yeah, uh urban industrial fasteners, some sort of bolts, clips, whatever.

Origin story

SPEAKER_02 9:47

So when did you start arting?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Uh I guess like all the time, man.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I know that's silly, but like we were a six-year-old scribbling on paper, like and like observing as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

I have to say, you know, like looking back, like a lot of like, you know, and then my parents, you know, you're still enjoying the comics. I'm like, I got, you know. And like my mom did embrace, you know, they both brought stuff. You know, my dad literally brought me these great 1960s comics.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

And that line quality, you know, it's specifically like, you know, early 60s, late 50s, it was dialed into the point to it's basically like copied, you know, almost 100%, I have to say, in like what's become contemporary illustration that you'll see on almost all your stuff. That's what people look at and think, oh, it's Japanese animation, it's actually Americana from that specific time period, and just really, you know, dialed in in the contemporary way that works and it's appealing to everyone. But if you look around and see these things, you'll notice that that is that actual image. And I kind of felt like that line quality had reached a perfection. And after that, it was a different thing, but it was I really just cared for that, especially.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

So observing in high school, you were already thinking about line quality.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, amongst other things, like um, we had done all these drawing and painting classes, and you know, just like the art world, like what's next? You know, like, oh, what's commercial art? Oh, that's cool. Uh, Andy War Hall, weird. Look at that. So that's like a whole different genre. I'm like, that's actually a lot more interesting than like all this other, you know, stuff, and going into popular culture stuff and pop art and like um seeing what soul screening was and photography used, you know, as you took an interest in these specific, you know, artists, like you know, not to be so cliche right off the bat to talk about Warhol.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

And I, you know, but we all have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, so embarrassing. Yeah, well, yeah, you get it. So, like, as an example, um, at that point, so um yeah, uh that kind of like led to like, oh, this is a neat way to do the same thing, and like essentially it's all paint. Like, what are you gonna do with it? And that is kind of like what you're doing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

It's like why where was your moment of like interacting with the pan, feeling like, yes, like uh Jim talked a little bit about a Cezanne quote and the time that he just like saw it and realized what this making this mark could mean.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Making the actual mark on the work.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah, like just the this caring about the line quality on the surface of the material or or you know, like what was your if you had one moment that well if you m mentioning those things make me think about a couple of different things, which is kind of what that style has become.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

So it's basically my commentary on what painting has become and what is, and how in you know, understanding all these temporary life situations and reflecting on that, let's also consider the um

Process work

SPEAKER_01 13:07

the lack of let's say what inspired me. I will have to say, like, and I've talked to other, you know, working artists, and I do mention, you know, things like I feel like it's process work. And they say, well, you know, if you are, you know, a working artist, you may experience something that feels like that. And being in the you know, advertising industry where you're doing a lot of printing and design and all that, it's just to me, it's just it's following that what was once commercial art and design and stuff is the same things, but instead of brush strokes and how you know adding something to your paint is going to make it three-dimensional, let's make it the opposite of that. Let's embrace the paint right out of the tube and sp you know, picking specific colors that are these pastel colors initially that which really helped me um lift myself, you know, and create this atmosphere where I was making something with this figurative work and creating this, you know, somehow this atmosphere of all these paintings around me in my apartment with these specific, you know, baby blue, a specific pastel, let's say they're all pastels, you know, a canary yellow, um, you know, and you know, the and then we go on, you know, from there, but embracing these these colors brought me a lot of happiness. The process work or the pop art genuinely in my heart felt like it needed to be something that didn't necessarily look like it was painted, but maybe printed. But then how did you print it on that corrugated material?

SPEAKER_04 15:00

I always thought it was printed, and I and I thought about that. Then you mentioned in like the an old folio article about a photo stud. I'm like, oh, that's how I did it. I had no idea that they were painted. I always thought it was like either printed flat and then shaped, but yeah, it looks like it was printed.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

It's something also that I noticed

The evolution of the work and contribution to pop art

SPEAKER_02 15:19

uh in the evolution of your craft over the years, um is early on. I have one of the I have the piece that I call Dolores. I don't uh I don't really select a name. But like um I think that you painted on the surface of that one. Yes. And then uh after that cut those couple of pieces that you did in that time period, I noticed you started doing it on the on the reverse side.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah, that's correct.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

So what like what kind of is that the change that you're sort of talking about? Like where you wanted to create this mystique of is it printed, is it painted?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Well, it's kind of like the basic, the whole surrounding, you know, of the whole thing in itself, but specifically at that time period at the beginning, that was you know part of the actual process work that I'm you know kind of going through and explaining. But initially, yeah, I was wanting the idea of separating the black lines from the color, like so sharply that they would be pronounced in a different way. But then, you know, discovering that you know, if you want to create something that lasts for a long time, practically, let's research how we can do that. And just, you know, why are you doing this on the front at all? Put this on the back, and in time, and you know, you have all these cold and heat, you know, climate changes, and let's see what happens to the material and find what paints and what processes work, and find something that doesn't crack, basically. And it's all sealed in from behind from that plastic, and it's reverse painted on there, so everything's painted backwards on there.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

I was surprised to learn that as well. Yeah, yeah, it's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

It's been fun, yeah. So, and you can it's fairly portable, you know. You can kind of roll it up and put it underneath your, you know, the crook of your arm and take it to the park or over to a friend's house and hang out and work with.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

That's

Art Basel and expanding horizons

SPEAKER_04 17:08

how I pictured you in that same foli article you I guess when the first time you went to, I don't know how to pronounce it, Art Basil or whatever. Oh, yeah. You just walked around with your own stuff and sold it or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

I did, yeah. The first time I kind of came down with friends, I think where it was like 06 or so, and um yeah, it was a different game back then. Yeah. I mean, well, to answer your question before I'll go on about it, it's just like, yeah, I just I just brought you know some of my own work, hoping to connect with other people that you know and I did actually connect with, you know, uh were they shooting gallery in LA. That was like they were really cool. They could pop. I just you know, it's the it's the image, you know, you look and you see it right away and you're like yeah, yeah. And you know, some people have met have been really cool. And that was you know, back then the and I brought it just, you know, to immediately be able the idea of it looking like it was a piece of an old illustration from an old billboard from that certain time period where you'd see a lot of that you know corrugated uh metal, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

And some of them like have like bolts in them and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Oh really? I didn't know. Well the idea there is by putting those metal fasteners in there is to you know help, you know, suggest that there would also be a piece of metal there that it was fastened to. So, you know, kind of creating that whole, you know, look a little further, you know, simply. So that's why the metal fasteners are used there. So, you know, you've got this shiny, you know, resinous top, and you know, what would typically be associated with metal, you know, of some sort of aluminum or steel, you know, of that period that you would typically see that style of line work, you know, as an illustration as well. So maybe something from that time, but just kind of celebrating that, you know, style of uh uh line quality and illustration, you know, over and over and over and over. And I saw that material that one day went to you know the store, this big box store, and I said, wow, I can embrace everything I dislike about painting, which was so easy to reproduce. So why do I fight that? Let's do something that will be basically

Evolution of process - Black & White and Landscape series

SPEAKER_01 19:25

looks the same over and over and over and over. And I won't have a gallery owner chewing the nails off her fingers because I'm dragging a manhole cover from the outside of her gallery and using 22 anchors to fasten it on there. And you know, it's like what a profound thing you've done there. That's great, but clean and light, and it'll be the same over and over and over and over, and just to create what you're gonna do right then and there, and this is my thing. And like, you know, let's just try that, see what happens. And here we are.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Yeah. So thinking about the evolution of process and how it's like changed you know how you do your work over time. You were talking a lot about color and line quality. Yes. And I know you went through a phase of I think you call them your black and whites, which are just painted on clear, yes, right? And there's no color in most of those, and it kind of you can see right through them.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yes. Yeah, the idea there was to kind of like bring a certain amount of uh literal, you know, black in color and lack of color as well, and but with that specific color to not necessarily bring the amount of happiness immediately from seeing that initially. It might, in kind of embracing the idea that all these emotions that outside of smiling were beautiful, let's take those same emotions without that color and see what it looks like and feels like. And that was what that series was about. And they were hung about an inch or so above you know the surface, and they cast a shadow, another black shadow, which kind of distorted the whole image and uh expression of the person.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

And kind of when you're talking about like kind of the functional practicality of thinking about your work in spaces and having climate changes and all these things, and in these pieces, like because it it embraces the space in a different way, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:32

It showcases whatever it's hung on as part of the yeah, the the that's that's pretty cool to consider that as well. And to be able to do that as well, to be able to, you know. I mean, God, to be able to be able to cooperate that much with that, you know, facility or space you're using to create that would be, yeah, the ultimate goal, I I would assume, of most artists, you know, but to create that feeling, you know. When you walk in there and see them. And that's kind of what was happening, you know. That's totally what was happening, sorry. You know, yeah. And the name of that, you know, series, let's just call it, was um dashed hopes and bad intentions. And looking back on my CV stuff, like retypesetting stuff the other day, the other year, realized like, wow, man, you've been so goth forever, bro. It's not a new thing here, is it? So um, but you know, it's it's a it's a a time that happens. It was um who's a virgin who's afraid of Virginia Wolf, like um, like taking a quote, good, better, best at um, you know, and kind of switching that around a little bit. And old memory of mine that at the time that kind of like wanted to put a different twist on. Anyway, that was that serious. That was fun. Yeah. Yeah, it was a it was taking a dark time and reflecting on it. I don't know, you're making lemonade basically out of lemons, let's just say, yeah. And that's what I did. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

And so tell me a little bit about that. Like there's a um there is there there's an internal journey.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

That's where I was at right there, yeah. In my head. And that because that's what was coming out, and that's what I wanted to do. I wanted it to cast those shadows, I want it to be, you know, black, you know, and I want it to be have those emotions. And I'll say the same illustrations without that color.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

What does it look like and feel like now? Okay, cool. You know, and here's this, then here's a different way to look at it. You know, this figure of work is, you know, this figurative series, you know, basically, because all the you know, line quality is made to look the same, and the subject matter should definitely kind of lend to the same, you know, time period and style, you know, as well. Where if you're not following it closely, it kind of really does look like the same thing over and over again. But what if you take a closer look, you can see there's a lot more to it than that. But that's the whole idea. That's the whole idea of embracing the whole like, hey, here's the temporariness of life over and over and over again. But what are we missing here? Yeah. It's right in front of us. Hey, that was cool. Yeah, that's neat. And a lot of stuff is like that, you know, when you find people in your life that y that really mean a lot to you, you realize that the search to meet those people wasn't really necessary at all. And you were really wasting your time and thoughts and life and everything, and all the people around you are the people that you need to be with.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah. There's the people that understand you and and they love you. And that's that's the really again one of the most important things I feel in life, and I wanted to bring that out in this, you know, series basically that I've been working on for over 20 years. That that these emotions and all are the real, let's not forget about that. I know I have. And then I forgot about them again. And I I guess it is human. Maybe I'm not really good at it. Maybe I'm not as good as somebody else, but that's what happened to me. There's the experiences I had. And yeah, I wanted to say, hey, if I have something to share with somebody, it would be this. Like, let's not forget about you know that wonderful sunset outside. I got caught up on uh, you know, just in meeting. It was really pretty. It was kind of pink, and you see that, yeah, that was nice. You know, before you hop on another call about a dinner reservation. You know, so there's that versus, you know, the two different things. The necessities and what you you know adapt to and it's fun and you enjoy your life, and you get a five o'clock happy hour and then you die.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

So how would you describe your level of anxiety depression currently?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Oh, it's great, I'm good now.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah. Um and understanding that life will, you know, have its way of shaking things out ultimately is something that I will probably have to help remind myself of over and over again because you know, again, I'm wasting away literally. My body is deteriorating over my mental anguish, which is hurting my all my organs and you know, life functions, essentially, because I'm worried about, you know, survival, you know, in this, you know, concrete jungle, you know, doing the right thing to assimilate to perform well enough to gain enough money to meet the cost of living. You know, and that takes the place of all these other things that should be happening in your life. And when your life becomes all of that and you forget all about these wonderful life experiences, you really uh in my mind lose touch with what life really is and you didn't really live that a life that you should because you never experienced those wonderful life feelings. And to be able to enjoy that more and to be at peace more and for me to not be angry more every day, to think about that and to be mindful that hey what you're angry about, maybe ask like why and then okay, maybe I understand now and not so angry anymore, let's just say. I don't know, that's where I'm at right now for mental clarity to escape anxiety, and it's been a journey, but that's where I'm at right now.

SPEAKER_04 28:06

Yeah, I'll just the only reason I ask is is because I, you know, I deal with anxiety and stuff and that to your point. Like when I see someone that is just like you know, just gonna roll with it no matter what, they just find happiness. I'm envious of that person because I'm much like you were saying, like, I have to remind myself when I sometimes I'll get to a good place and then I just slide back into old habits, and I'm like, man, I thought I had it figured out, I'm miserable again. You know what I mean? It is hard to to remind yourself. And people say just practice appreciation. It's hard when someone tells you to do that to actually appreciate it. Be grateful, well, yeah, exactly. It's like I'm pissed right now, I can't be grateful.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Yeah, to be able to do that a little easier, you know, and to be able to actually be grateful, like, oh man, it's so nice and cool outside tonight. And wow, what a wonderful evening. And soon it'll be like so miserably humid every single night. And I just can't wait to get in a kiddie pool, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Can I jump in here? Because I'm noticing something that I think is interesting.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Um, all of the scenarios you're kind of talking about is people anxiety and then turning to nature. Oh, interesting. You you mentioned a sunset. Can we get off Zoom and look at this sunset? You know what I mean? And and and just now you were mentioning that. And I was preparing to ask you about your landscapes and how that you there seems to be some anxiety and darkness tied up in those black and whites. And then I think that it was shortly after the black and w whites that you did start doing the landscapes. I first saw them in a Riverkeeper event at some point, but where you had these natural scapes that had a piece in them that the portraiture didn't necessarily work wasn't needed, basically.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

And then the idea of that being completely separate of the figurative work that was something that did need a signature, and that's a whole nother thing altogether, like graphically, you know, like to not need a signature on advertisement, be able to recognize that person's style. And that in my mind was the achievement I you know needed to be, you know. I needed to be there, and that's we're perpetuating like that same look over and over again and not needing a signature and knowing what it was was my ultimate achievement, you know, to me.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

And um right, but how did the nature piece like um how did that come in? How did that change kind of your the evolution of your process?

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Like it took me a while to figure it out, oddly enough, but I think I wanted to create these um places for these characters to go and have these scenarios and situations. So basically to kind of highlight the illustrations as fine art to the point to where you're really detailing and taking apart these illustrations of a uh river um or lake at night, you know, or some old, you know, say Manhattan apartments, you know, 100-year-old apartments or you know, 75-year-old apartments, you know, brownstones or whatever at night, and a lot of shadows. And then, you know, there's always been a touch of black, you know, which is kind of ironic to add to a bunch of pastels, but it's basically, you know, it's that style, it's that look you're separating it, it's that hard line. I mean, we can talk about you know, Mondrian as well. That was beautiful shit. That's a great black line there, too. But taking that black line and basically being able to add so much of that black to a piece. Not even really like when you look at it, you think that's a lot of black. You don't even see that, you just see the mood. You've created something, and that's what I really wanted to do there too. And I hope it did. I hope you didn't look at it and be like, that's not a black.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

But you actually like I'd never even thought until just now when you were talking about it, that you about the there being a relationship between like these characters and then maybe the environment that they're experiencing. Um, that like changes my mind about pieces I own of here. It's like, oh wow, like somebody was looking at that. And and then I think about okay, so some of these landscapes uh uh have like I I've I don't know if it's specifically Hannah Park, but it reminds me of like the wood, like little Talbot Island or somewhere out there. And so, and I'm imagining you based on knowing you, but also what you were describing just moments ago, going to those places here in town or out just outside of

Process from concept to actual mark-making

SPEAKER_02 33:07

town and holding your plastic and your marker and drawing those you're in those places looking at those things and draw and kind of drawing them there, or you're taking pictures and coming back to your studio and drawing them. I I know that I've seen you outside with just with materials Sharpie going right onto uh plastic, you know, and uh or poly. It's cool, yeah. It's yeah, it's cool.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah, it's yeah, right, just doing the thing. Yeah, yeah. Um I have and and yes, I've used photos, and you know, it's the behind-the-scenes stuff I don't mind talking about. And so much more is of that is happening now, pro people want to like show a process, which has always been kind of behind the scenes and what the magic is. Yeah, I mean that's yours, and you're allowed to keep it. Well, yeah, yeah. But I mean it's cool, but you know, you you don't when you look at the finish work, you don't think about all that. It's just the consistency. So being able to take a photograph that has enough contrast that you can actually do that with was something I could see right away in one of these pieces. And it was a photograph my friend Christy took in a canal in North London when she was going to get on a plane early in the morning, so it was still dark out, and you could see a little crescent moon, and there was somebody kind of like walking by, but it was like

Finding nature in Riverside's urban landscape

SPEAKER_01 34:32

a Hitchcock, let's say, for lack of a better term of reference, uh like silhouette of a man's hand walking, and that's about it. And the the rest of it's in the shadows of this whole environment here, and you can see a couple of little lights on here and there with a canary yellow coming through these old, you know, window panes. And then again on the water, you can see a slightly distorted ripple through some of these reflections of the same window panes. And there is that mood or that thing to climb inside of where you forget all about the black. And it more kind of like represents like that time of day. And I've really been enjoying nature at night lately.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Yeah, Riverside lends ball to that because you've got so many like wonderful old-growth trees around here that taking a walk, like even on the sidewalk, is wonderful, and if the weather's nice like it has been. And that has been my nature lately. Um, even the other night I stopped right before sunset at Boone Park um by the, you know, on the side with the courts, the tennis courts, yeah, and went over by the creek and kind of hung out there as the lights. Exactly. The owls were chiming in. And uh and it got darker and darker, and I just listened to the, you know, the babbling water there and watched it get dark. And that was, I think, a really neat way to enjoy nature, and I have been enjoying that. And those kind of those are the moods that I want to bring to those paintings, you know, where you see that, and that is something you don't get during the day. Yeah. It's been a wonderful life here in Riverside. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Yeah. Hell yeah, Riverside. And it's like you said, health as well that it is, and all these things are a real existence, and everybody's due to have these moments to enjoy in this way, you know. And if you've not, it's like, wow, man, let's make that happen.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

I think that my guess is that even if you are completely miserable all the time during the living of the life, you'll still look back on it and be like, Man, those were right.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

No, I'm still happy. I can attest to them efficiently. Yeah, totally. The panic and all. Yeah. And that's I think how you know how good that it can be when you've lived those moments and you really, you know, go all the way to the bottom to see. And maybe I didn't go to the bottom. Maybe we just stop in some weird cliff along the way. And I thought, damn, that sucks so bad. This must be at the bottom. It could be even worse than that. And you have that's so much to be grateful for, like you were saying. But for it to find that gratitude, you know, and and to say, man, it's really nice tonight. That is like the real good feelings that you should be enjoying more than that panic and worry of how am I gonna pay that bill? Yeah, what am I gonna do? Let's talk about the hustles that I can do. Yes,

Early assemblage work

SPEAKER_01 37:27

that's life. You got to, but if you can, I was able to somehow like maybe begin to consider how to escape this non-real life experience, and and a lot of people don't get to, and it just sucks, and that's the reality of life, but involving that whole thought process with the paintings and to show that the temporariness of life that's associated with modern living is modern living, and you have to play the game. And these pieces, I will say, they are playing the game, you know. Doing assemblage work and installation work was making those things and not even knowing what an assemblage was in 1989.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

And you go over to Crystal's house, she's probably still got my assemblage hanging up, yeah. And you and I'm she'd have it might be in her studio. It might be, yeah. Well, that was a part of the taxidermy series, you and I'm glad you remembered that. We can talk about that too. But this was the first one I did with I still with my parents, and I guess I was either graduated from high school or still like in high school, and DJing around town. Well, that was later, but I we did have a radio show at high school that was fun. That's cool. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm rambling. But this is so much fun. So you did an assemblage? Yeah, so I've been at a party years ago over at Crystal's house, and I love our neighborhood and our people and friends. And I said, I made that, and everybody's like, No, you didn't mind. I walked over and got it and turned it around, and I basically sprayed it real quick with black aerosol spray paint, and just take a screwdriver and then rip my name into that paint. And it was still there and it said Mark George 89 on it. I was like, Yeah, that was the first one I ever made. And I didn't even know what a fuck. I'm sorry, I don't mean to curse, it's so tacky. Oh, it's fucking fine, man. I don't give a shit. Well, that's where my head's at right now, but um it's that was I didn't even know what an assemblage was, and just to be making these things, you know, so unplanned, where all this time goes by and you see all these things that make your stomach hurt, like master forgery is like, wow, and to realize that's a whole thing in itself. And like, I'm actually really intrigued on the how you counterfeited this to that degree, and to become involved in graphic design and and process work and printing. And one of my first jobs at the Times Union, uh, and you mentioned the Photostat camera, working with the Photostat camera, you'd take these pre-desktop publishing made by hand, 100% size pages that were created by these graphic designers and they went to high school and learned how to do this, and was fortunate enough to work at night there, and you'd lay these strips of words as you know, as long as the newspaper page would be or whatever, or the article size page, over and over and over. And then, you know, you take these pieces of paper and run it through what it looked like a tape dispenser, like a really narrow, thin, tall, and it was a wax wheel, a wheel that went through some wax, and you'd run this piece of paper and stick it on this board and take that board, 100% size photostat camera, one page, bring that negative from that photostat camera, um, to me. I ran the lithograph uh machine. So we'd make a metal plate, take a metal plate and put the negative on it, you know, in the same way precisely you'd when you're making a salt screen, you put it in a specific area. It's like photo emotion. Yeah, the negative's already created, but it's just like a black and white negative, let's just say. So it's just a one single colorless idea, like screen we refer to. And that way it's similar as well. And it's pulled in to this machine. It's it was quite a rig because there's a lot of light. So safety reasons, it was, you know, you press this button, and this whole board was pulled into this box, and the panel came down to not expose your light or eyes to a certain amount of light level that would be blinding to a certain point, you know, in time, in a rapid exposure or repeated exposure rather. And um, it would burn this image onto the metal plate, and you take that metal plate and bring it over to this wonderful Heidelberg press that the Times Union would still be using and would still be working if someone just oiled it, probably.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

It's not there anymore, it's a whole food stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

That's just it. Things like that aren't produced anymore. Everything is based around planned obsolescence, and everybody's accepted that. And that's part of this plastic puzzle piece where it's just like we all know

Capitalism, business time, and design

SPEAKER_01 42:04

not only we're gonna die, but everything we own, you can't even really own anything that lasts anymore. I'm gonna take all my money because I have all this money, go down to BMW and lease a seven series. And you know why? Because they're only designed to last five years, right? Thanks is this what you put all your hard work into creating something that is last a season. Yeah, yeah. Let's let's talk about references, old school references, talk about seasons. It literally, you know, like a lot can happen in three months. And some things only last that long.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

You mean one business quarter?

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Oh, yeah, sure. Wow, now that fills me full of anxiety. We're right in the middle of the street. I'm sorry to make you even think about that, sir. I feel you 100%. Yeah. He's about to break out some spreadsheets. That's when you're just like, yeah, we're gonna.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

What do you mean why uh why over why?

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Yeah, and you call your tax lady, I'm like, can we get an extension? And she's like, You always get a return. Don't worry about it. I'm like, I'll love you, I'll talk to you later. My tax lady, she's the best.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

So you mentioned you mentioned design. Uh and you you are also a graphic designer.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah, man. So, like, took that turn, like I said, you know, I mean forever ago, even back in high school with drawing class, painting class. Hey, that's fun. Oh, cool, you know, that cool, you know, um graphite illustration of the sandpiper at the beach, you know, great, good times. But it's like you a typeface nerd. Oh, totally, man. I mean, and at this point in time, who isn't? It's just like, wow, man, that's great. Is everybody like it? Was a thing really? I mean, let's talk about Fontographer. Who remembers that program? Who remembers my favorite? And I'm just gonna go find if I don't already have one, uh a unit that accommodates a disk drive because I want to use um freehand again. I don't want to use Illustrator, I want to use. The simplest version of freehand without any of those bells and whistles that you wouldn't even know is a bells and whistles. That's why I want to use CorelDraw 10 calling Brian Hicks old laptop because I can. And that's so much more of an experience than any new computer I could possibly buy and spend all kinds of money on.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

Or not. No, and I mean it's true, right? It's just like finding like old uh recording equipment or old like pedals, uh guitar pedals and stuff like trucks or something.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

Yeah, totally. Oh yeah, like traveling time coming back, yeah. Like, yeah, going to give my friend a ride home and go into his little jam study.

unknown 44:34

He's like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

I was like, so does anybody have a chorus pedal? Those were really big in the 90s, and he's like, Yeah, this thing is what Kurt Cobain used to use. I'm like, oh yeah, Kurt used a chorus, yeah. Of course he did. It was the 90s. Oh. Everybody.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

But you going over that uh job description that you had at time to you. I never had anything that was cool, good.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

I wish we stayed there. That was I mean, that was pre-desktop. I mean months later, basically, they made their whole transfer. I think they were already talking about the rooms because they were painting them gray, which is ironic, because that was a long time ago. Grey subactor now. But um, I mean Whatever. But they said that was the after

Art vs Design

SPEAKER_01 45:11

all the research that everyone had done and this transformation of the workspace and how it was all done. In the study, it was understood that gray was the easiest color to look at when you look up from your monitor, which is what everybody would be looking at soon to streamline the whole process.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Like early ergonomics or something.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yeah, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

It's like depressing ergonomics.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Yeah, Charles and Ray Eames cubicle, come on, we can do better than that. You guys made better stuff than that. So happened.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

What's the difference between art and design?

SPEAKER_01 45:42

You know what? I've then it's you know, we already talked about Andy Warhol. Yeah. And what what about like when he went to a don't don't let me embarrass myself and mispronounce someone like uh the gallery enter's name in California, Southern California, where he brought his literally Campbell suit cans to. I won't remember. And everybody dissed him because he's like, This is commercial art, this isn't fine art. And um they were like, Oh, we were totally pulling this off in New York. Let's just go back over there and do this. And that's where like kind of like you had the scene. He's like, and even now, the LA scene is like even kind of cooler than the New York scene, but then you know, I gotta say the San Fran scene was the best scene.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

And it's a lot of graphic design.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Yeah, man. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh getting back to graphic design, yeah. Um, sorry, I do I uh I um I mean I always say I own an advertising business. It just turned 10 in January. Yeah. And I got involved in graphic design in high school and I never really stopped it because and I was involved with all like the change of that, you know, um uh hand done, made by hand, which lends to, of course, my hand painting stuff right now. Yeah. Um, you know, wanting to do that and and the idea of making something that looks like it's printed, but it's actually painted. And that is the kind of commentary, if you want to call it that, you know. It's like I don't want to talk about brush strokes, I'm sorry. I don't want to talk about mixing colors. I want to talk about what really horrifies everybody, which is apparently using paint right out of the tube. But it's still a painting. Yeah. And like what it's become, and I'm not really trying to be like that much of a rebel, like what look what I took and made with it, you know. Like it's so cheesy, I think. But like this is what I happen to put together. And it's kind of like, you know, I always really enjoyed the illustration work, and what it comes down to is what came into putting that all together, that style, you know. The you know, the the people, you know, the artists. There's so many, you know, to name, and I I don't want to be cliche to talk about you know John Ramita, but he is like one of the awesome guys that came to mind, you know. And there's so many, I just feel bad for not like reeling off like 20, but these illustration artists of this period that were doing a lot of work in these um romance comic novels of that period, which were really a great way to source these images if you were looking for some figurative work illustrations from that period.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

I heard you guys a minute ago talking about how you were uh not necessarily inspired as much by like Liechtenstein. Is it Liechtenstein or well?

SPEAKER_01 48:28

I mean, yeah, that's how I ended up on all this stuff in the first place, like in high school, like oh these guys are crazy, you know, like with the pop art that they they were making, you know. Yeah, I'm totally cool, like Liechtenstein, and in the way that he was, you know, using these, you know, references

People are obsessed with how much time it takes to art

SPEAKER_01 48:42

from comic books.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

But like you guys I the way I heard it, and y'all had the conversation when I was in uh wasn't in the room, but like the way I that I understood it was like it wasn't necessarily about you saw Liechtenstein's work and we're like, I want to do that. It was more like you saw this thing about these comics that always kind of compelled you, and that might have just been a validation that it's worthwhile pursued.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Yeah, I just really like the line quality. You were talking about like time spent as an artist, and the and one of the things that comes to mind was just time. I will have to say, you know, people say, Come to your art show, how long did it take you to make that painting?

SPEAKER_02 49:17

That's hilarious. Jim Draper said the same thing that people say, how long did that take you?

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Thanks for taking five years of my life away from me right now. Oh, but just like that's my whole life. I'm sorry. And it's gotten to the point where it's a cliche, and then they that person does not understand, and they don't really understand what they just asked you as well. Yeah, we're not talking about something I made. How long did it take you to cut down that tree or whatever, exactly, or do something, and so much more to it than that. And the our business is different than any other business in the world, right?

SPEAKER_02 49:47

Because your machine has inputs from starting at childhood. Yes. So any piece that you make right now has like, you know, uh half a fucking century of information in it.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Exactly, and subconscious influences, as much as I didn't even want to look at any kind of periodicals or whatever your magazine art forum, any of that stuff when I was making assemblages, because I didn't really want to copy anybody or think about it or become interested to the point where we're like, oh I want to make it that way. I wanted to depart that far away and not have any of this influence subconscious or otherwise that would make me want to do anything different than I just wanted to set out and do myself. If that was a problem, if you were that easily swayed. Yeah. I think we are, you know. Everybody's trying to live, you know.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

So is design just the same as art? It just has less of the um Oh well we can talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

I mean, the old school, like as I say at this point, as a 55-year-old man, you know, and and living through or experience have being lucky enough to even live see the transition of, you know, both um making things by hand, design paintings, hand lettering, and printing. And that being an extinct thing, and then time going by, and then young people becoming interested in that process, and then making a really good living around town, actually in this neighborhood, doing that very same thing. It's wonderful. Thank you for doing that, you know. It's a great thing. Being involved with all these processes all along the line and being interested in design, I guess

Retrospective on art informed by design

SPEAKER_01 51:27

that is bringing the design aspect into the work, and then the whole idea of it being and feeling like process work when I do it, you know, it can be a lot like, you know, you know what the outcome's gonna be, and you create it, and that's the idea. You're making something in my at this point in the game better and better and better in some way different. And I the lines have become so sharp that we consider other things that we might be able to do to make this a new unique style or venture in this departure when we've left the figurative work and went into these scenes, the beach scenes, the the river keeper stuff you mentioned, the intercoastal uh, you know, design work with the backgrounds and then like shadowy nighttime. And to pick up color palette that was also pastel, but I included black,

Collaboration with Tony Rodrigeus

SPEAKER_01 52:16

lavender, canary yellow, um, like a slate gray, and like um you know, kind of a blue that complemented that as well. But they're all fairly pastel. A certain amount of white was mixed in there, and they used those same color combinations, especially this this you know, a few that I listed for the nighttime, um uh kind of series there of uh landscapes and um architecture studies, I guess we could call it, you know, um situations that you know lifestyles are involved in, you know, or backdrops of life.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

There's one there's one other series that I wanted to ask you about um that I think is uh probably less known. I I don't know that I've ever seen it in a show. I've only actually talked to you about it and seen some uh images from after you had done the exhibition, but it was the collaboration that you did with Tony Rodriguez, where you um were actually doing sort of it almost was like a parody of advertising. Uh is how I remember it. Um I'd like to know a little bit about like kind of how that like we're talking about design, we're talking about advertising, we're talking about your work. What was what compelled you know, what brought that.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

I'm super lucky to be able to collaborate with Tony or even just know Tony at all. He's been a wonderful friend that I met in 1991, and I've been friends with ever since. And um, he's a wonderful person, and I've enjoyed all my time with him and experiences and the things I've learned. And I essentially Tony really got me back into painting again because and he's really is that person, just wants to be that person. He's like, over the years, even with me, he's like, hey, let's work on this painting, let's do a collaboration on a painting for the show that's on this and that date. And I was like, I'm not a painter, and he's like, sure you are. And I was like, well, I'll just use whatever paint I want to use, and I'm gonna use this paint pen. And he's like, Okay. And we'll like apply a graphic quality to this, and I'll take this um I guess typesetting uh from this um uh comic book, Red Skull. And it says the words were like, uh, like hand me the viper, you know, and like my it was, you know, nothing uplifting at all or something like that. It's just like you have destroyed me or something. It was something fairly powerful, and it's just I kind of like the way the typesetting looked with those words, and um it was a collaboration we worked on together. Um I can maybe share an image at some point with you, but he got me back into the painting. But yeah, it was I'm fortunate to have had that time to do this series with him, you know, about ten years ago at this point.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

And um I I kind of miss sense of humor in work. Yeah, see it much these days.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

I do too, and I keep coming back and reminded that and wish that I could involve more genuinely in mine without compromising anything that I wanted to convey. But um the work with Tony was great, and the advertising basically was a reflection of a series that he had been working on, not a too far of a departure in theme where it was excessiveness and like the idea of all the excessiveness not really being a good thing. Yeah. And it's kind of like a point that he's come to uh in a few of his like uh series and exhibits and stuff and themes, but um it was um opulence, I think, um was um a group and a theme of work that he worked with, and it was not far from a theme of that that I was really working with him with because he had had these appropriated images that he had acquired that conveyed these feelings that he felt that like represented excessiveness and and like the desire, kind of like we were talking about before, to be so consumed with monetary gain that that becomes the most important thing in your life.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

And then that's you know, is this the flex capital? Well, that's another thing we have.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

That's what I'm saying. Yeah, he he does touch on a similar theme and you know, work you'll see in these exhibits, but yeah, yeah, and it's not far from that. So honestly, that was the appropriate imagery that he wanted to use, and that was the color that was added to each one of those pieces. And we did what's referred to in the past as um exquisite corpse, so doing a collaboration where you just do something and hand it off to somebody else and they finish it. Yeah. And that other person doesn't have any other influence on what you do to it, and you do it in your own time when and you're in place and you're in process on that same piece of material or whatever. Yeah. And that's what we did. So I would start with a black line illustration, and then he would add the color. So he was even adding the color to the eyes and everything, and it was a discussion. He's like, Do you just want me to add the color? Do you want to do anything? I was like, Do you want to add the color, man? Put some color in the eyes, that'd be cool. Because then that gives him an opportunity to pull a screen of that image over like what would be a white eye, you know, like like that part of your eye or whatever. Sorry. Yeah. With like whatever this repeating pattern or something that made up a photograph, you know. Yeah. Um uh, you know, that would run over the area, and then you'd put the white of the eye inside of that. So it gave him an opportunity to kind of layer and add something or bring something to that collaboration, and they give it a little more style and um depth. And and that was fun. So that's basically what's going on there. So that was and I just think that's so cool.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

I also it it's remarkable to me for a lot of reasons, but also I don't see a lot of collaborations happening between artists.

Closing thoughts: Don't forget to call your mom

SPEAKER_02 57:54

Maybe sometimes in like graffiti world, but outside of that, no, I don't see a lot of people like doing a exhibition where we we collaborated on any on each of these pieces.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Not just like I did this and they did that.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Yeah, it was something like you know, it was a series. Right. And it's it was fun. Yeah, it was I'm lucky to have able to have done that with him. And and a lot of people did say, hey, that we they felt like your work really complimented each other. You guys were great to collaborate with, you know, the finished work turned out really nice. But that's what I really wanted to share with everybody. Like, hey, don't forget to watch the sunset if you can't tonight. And hey, don't forget to call your mom this weekend. Yeah. You know, and and um love isn't sex, love is looking up everybody.

SPEAKER_03 58:54

You want to just say thanks or something, or do you want to do an ultra later? Thanks or something.

SPEAKER_04 59:02

I just thought what he was opening his heart to you. You might be like, Well, that's really profound. Well, thanks for joining us. He just kind of sat there and just said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, keep going.