Why are Fans Divided on Ultimate Spider-man?

Comic fans are deeply divided about Ultimate Spider-Man — and in this episode, we dig into why.

Clayton and Paul sit down for a long-form comic discussion covering several of the biggest books on the stands right now, including Transformers #30, Absolute Batman #18, Absolute Superman #17, and Death Spiral #1.

But the heart of the conversation centers on the biggest debate in modern Spider-Man fandom: Why does Ultimate Spider-Man have readers so split?

Is it the slower pacing?
The heavy dialogue?
Is it the way the story focuses on Peter Parker’s life and relationships rather than constant action?

Or is this exactly what makes the series special?

We talk about storytelling weight, character development, and what fans actually want from a Spider-Man comic.

Whether you love the book or struggle with it, this episode explores both sides of the debate and why this run has become one of the most talked-about Spider-Man series in years.

Join the conversation and let us know where you land.

Is this the future of Spider-Man storytelling… or a swing that misses?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello everybody. My name is Paul. And my name's Clayton. And you're listening to the Beyond the Poolist podcast. Woo woo woo-hoo! Yeah, back for a second episode, man. I'm super excited. We were gonna record last week, but somebody got the flu. And by somebody, I mean me. It was not fun. It wasn't bad. It was it was probably the best flu I've ever had.

SPEAKER_06 0:22

That's a weird sentence to say. It's a weird sentence. People are gonna do this out already.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

I love the flu, let me tell you. That's the speech. Right there with scrap. I love not being able to swallow. It's great.

SPEAKER_06 0:38

First minute.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

We've got a super exciting episode today. First of all, we got a bunch of books that came out yesterday. We're recording this on Thursday. So we're gonna be talking about Absolute Batman. We're gonna be talking about issue 18. We're also gonna be talking about it uh Ark M, the single one-shot issue, because uh Clayton hasn't read it and he did just read it for this episode. I'm so excited to talk about that. I should have brought it. I didn't I have we have our book sitting out and I didn't bring it to look at it. That's okay. We don't need it, we don't need it. Um uh and Clayton, you're gonna go next. What all you guys I am.

SPEAKER_06 1:10

I'm gonna talk about all the stuff I didn't talk about last time. Yes. Um, because I drew a blank when you asked me what I'm pulling, and I I stuttered my way through. So, what I'm actually gonna talk about this time, I'm gonna talk about Transformers, because that has been great. Cool. Uh, I'm gonna talk about Superman. Yep. Absolute Superman.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:28

And then Adventures of Superman House of L. Okay. And there's some great ones, there's some mid ones, and there's some uh so we're gonna use our ranking system for that. Do we want to remind our listeners?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, so our uh ranking system, really quick. We've got three tiers. We've got off the pool list, which means um the book is so bad that we don't even want it, take it off the pool list, it's not good. Uh, we may continue to review it, I don't know. It just kind of depends on our personal preferences, um, like me with Venom, unfortunately. Um we have on the pull list where it's like, this book is good, it's entertaining, I like it. I'm gonna keep pulling it just because it's a good entertainment read, but I'm probably not gonna go crazy for it. I'm not, I'm just gonna buy just one issue every week, and that's pretty much it. And then we have Beyond the Pool list, and Beyond the Pool list is gonna be the best of the best, the top of the top books. So these are gonna be like for both of us. Last week, our Beyond the Pool list was absolute Batman because we're enjoying the book so much. So that was kind of our, you know, which again, what that means is that we're gonna be buying all the variants, buy all the figures. If you like this, this is a book you're gonna buy everything for, which is uh which is how I am with any book, unfortunately. Um so yeah, that's gonna be our rating system. So yeah. Immediately let's jump into the book. Also, wait, real quick, stick to the end. If you've read the title, you're probably like, wait, are you guys gonna talk about Ultimate Spider- This title Ultimate Spider-Man's in the title? Like it that book's over. Why are y'all talking about that again? We, if you aren't familiar, um, follow us on Instagram at common comic nation1776. Um, that is our Instagram profile. Um, we've actually uh Clayton used to run it a long time ago and he took a break, but now we're back on it, or he's back on it, and it's I kind of our plug for the podcast. And also, we're also gonna be making normal, or he's gonna be making normal posts on it. And uh it's we made a post on Ultimate Spider-Man and we kind of pushed the last episode, and a lot of people didn't like our opinions on it, and a lot of people are very mixed. So we're gonna have a specific discussion today and today only about Ultimate Spider-Man and why is the fan base so split on it. But you're gonna have to wait till the end of the episode because we have a lot of stuff to review today.

SPEAKER_06 3:36

Yeah, and uh this is the last time we're gonna talk about it. This is it.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

So if you want to hear our opinions, don't skip to the end because we we do have a lot of stuff to talk about. But if you're desperate to hear about it, I know you're gonna skip to the end anyway. Um it's fine, I won't be mad. But don't you want to hear us talk about Spider-Man Dead Spiral? Because I gotta talk about Dead Spiral. That's coming out this week for me. Um and I'm actually not that I'm not that hating on it, but I'm not What? Yeah, it's weird.

SPEAKER_06 4:02

That is crazy. And Al Ewing Venom that you're not hating on?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I still don't like Al. I still don't like Spider-Man's editorial team. Joe Kelly's okay, I guess, but I've not been reading it, so it's uh we'll we'll get into it.

SPEAKER_06 4:13

We'll get into it. So our first beyond the pull list book is Absolute Batman.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Holy cow. We both are dude. Man, we're dying of talking about it. Dude, this book is insane. So, first of all, um, do we want to talk about Ark M first? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 4:28

We can talk about Ark M first since that's kind of older. Yeah, yeah. Um, but from this point on, we are going to be talking about spoilers.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah, spoilers. So many spoilers. If you haven't read it, then you better.

SPEAKER_06 4:38

Pause the podcast, go read it.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Come back. Come back. Yep, come back. Bring them out and do it when you come back. It's great. I'm drinking one right now.

SPEAKER_06 4:46

Mmm.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

That's gonna sound good on your ears.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

You didn't know this was Beyond the Pool list ASMR! Hello, and welcome to Beyond the Poolist ASMR.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Let me I don't know if you can even hear that.

SPEAKER_06 5:01

All right. Okay, Arkham.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Tell me, you do you take it away, man. I'm time to hear what you have to say.

SPEAKER_06 5:06

Okay, so I read it, I read it today, actually. Uh, and man, that twist at the end uh is incredible. So so basically, for uh summing up what happened in the issue, it is the story of Arkham Asylum in the Absolute Universe. Yes. And so you have Amadeus Arkham, and he is telling the history of Arkham Asylum. Yes. And he's going through uh somebody's come in, it's like 1945, they're about to sell the asylum because it's got a lot of bad memories associated with it. This guy comes in and he's saying, I'm gonna buy it, and um I'm gonna turn it into something different. And so he's like he's writing uh Armadeus Arkham is writing a journal.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 5:50

Uh and you're reading the journal entries throughout the book, and he is saying he was an orphan, and eventually this orphan came to the asylum with blood covered on. Covered in blood.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Uh well, also he started the asylum because of his own. Yeah, because his mom should be a big one. Which was that's the craziest opener I've ever ever read.

SPEAKER_06 6:12

His mom, so when he was a boy, it was the Civil War. Yeah. Uh, his father gets killed in the war, and his mom goes insane, grabs the Union officer's pistol, and shoots the siblings, and instead of shooting Amadeus Arkham, shoots herself.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah. She she her husband died pretty much in a war that in a in a battle that was meaningless because the war had already ended, but it hadn't got to them yet, and they didn't know that, and they fought this battle. So he literally he literally died for nothing.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

And the soldier comes to her house to tell her that. She takes his pistol, shoots him, turns around, and all three of her kids are standing there, shoots one of her kids, shoots the other, and is about to shoot Amadeus, but then shoots herself. Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Holy cow, what my gosh.

SPEAKER_06 7:00

Yeah. Uh and so from there he opens the asylum because he wants to help people. Yeah. And um, then that's when he finds the orphan boy covered in blood. And uh from there, uh the boy kind of becomes like his surrogate son. They're going through, they check on the asylum. There's one patient who is kind of demented a little bit. He he's smiling, he's a little bit cruel, he loves death. Yeah, you know, and uh he captures the boy at one point until eventually he lets the boy go, and Amadeus thinks kind of everything's okay. But as we're reading through this journal entry, we find out that there's a prison escape and they've removed some stones down there in the furnace, some bricks, yeah, so they could escape. And eventually they do catch all these inmates again, uh, but they don't catch the one guy, the smiling guy.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah, which I think they yeah, he was he they called him, he was was is that Jack the Ripper? That's what they implied. I think that's what they implied. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:07

Uh well, Jack the Ripper, that's what we're gonna call him, kidnapped Armadeus's Arkham's surrogate son.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 8:17

So they go down to the boiler room, Armadeus, this is now back in 1945, so their present day, and he takes the the guy who's gonna buy the asylum. And man, that's when things get real crazy. Yeah. Because the guy who is gonna buy it's never revealed like his name in the beginning of the.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Yeah, he never says who he is, he's just you know interested. And he's asking a lot about the place. He's making uh Amadeus open up a lot.

SPEAKER_06 8:43

Yes. And so he says, Well, if they escape from that hole, and you guys patch that up, why is this section over here also patched?

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 8:53

And Amadeus says, Huh. Um, and then that's when the mysterious spire whispers in his ear.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

He whispers something in his ear.

SPEAKER_06 9:03

And his eyes light up, it get real big.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 9:05

The mysterious seller leaves, Amadeus goes down there and tears away those bricks.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Well the what he yeah, the the night of he's sitting there in his room and he's thinking about what he said, and that's when he just gets up and goes. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:20

And it's the body of Jack the Ripper.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yes, it's the body of who we th who uh supposedly took his son. Right. Um what did he say exactly? It was it was something that the kid said. Tomorrow is a new page. Tomorrow's a new page. Yeah, tomorrow's a new page, which is something that he would consistently say. He actually, um Jack the Ripper uh almost killed his son, uh his son, in quotation. Yes, Erica's son, um, one other time before the escape. And that's what he had said to kind of I think make the guy's guard go down. Yeah, yeah. Like, tomorrow's a new page, and like that was a big inspiration for Amadeus. Right. And that's what he always said to himself after he lost his son. Because he that just that was just his motto, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:03

And it's revealed that the son killed Jack the Ripper. He the son was the one who let out the inmates. Yes, caused all of it. The son is now the mysterious buyer.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 10:15

And Amadeus Arkham is so broken over this, he burns down the asylum.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yes. And what he whispered. Oh well, when he breaks, yeah, because he breaks down. Also, it said tomorrow there was a pay a piece of paper in the tomorrow's a new day.

SPEAKER_05 10:29

New page.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Yeah, on the body of the other guy. So uh the so yeah, and he he burns down the he throws the boy's teddy bear in the furnace and burns the place down. Yeah. And who is standing in the distance as this as the whole asylum's on fire? It's one of the best panels of the book. You want to say who it is?

SPEAKER_06 10:48

It's it's the absolute joker. It's Joker.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

The little boy was Joker, yeah. And he's got this smile on his face that's just it's Ooh boy. Like the Joker in this universe. I I'm dying to see Joker.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

This is yeah, this is uh uh like a a terrifying joker.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah, this Joker is insane, and it's just like like they never explain what the blood was. I'm dying to know what that was because when you know he appears, he's covered in blood for the first time. And then because Amadeus was like Amadeus, and I guess his like maid was like, Hey, like what happened? And he said that the boy was so distraught he didn't even he said he couldn't talk about it. He's like, I don't I don't know, I just I don't you know which again I'm surprised they never brought that up. Like you know what I mean. But I guess it was just kind of whatever just to cause mystery attention. Yeah, but um I'm Joker is terrifying in this universe. That's all I want. All I want is to see Joker, and I'm so glad that um Scott Snyder is really stretching it. Like we got a little bit, and then I'm like this gave us a little bit more, and you know, it's just I I don't know what to think. I don't know what to think about this Joker.

SPEAKER_06 11:58

Man, I I you know you love comical Joker, right? Like you love that's classic Joker.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

You know, but wait, uh wait, wait, uh the the telephone then you know the from the 1966 button.

SPEAKER_06 12:15

Yeah, I'm gonna pound Joker the pop pounding, Joker. Yeah, no, but but but that's classic Joker. We want a dark Joker like this, man. Yeah. And and and Scott Snyder's doing it.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

He's on it, man. Whatever he's got, like, there's so much more to this character that I feel like we have not seen yet. And I love how it's so mysterious, right? Because no one knows what to think about this Joker. Like, I don't even know, like again, and I'm not a big Batman reader, but I know I know Joker. Everybody knows Joker. You know, and like it's just saying this new Joker, all I want, I want to know more. And he's just like, keep reading, like you just gotta you gotta stick with it. But it's it's so his presence is very is there, right? Right. Even in issue 18. Like, you know, we like we'll get to that in a minute, but like, you know, they mention him, and yeah, you know, like, and it's just I don't, I just I don't know, man. I just like that issue, Ark M was such a great tie-in. Yeah because like, and I think it got controversy because we were like, oh, this is too much. Some yeah, someone had said it was too much, and like, or I kept well, like, you know, whenever uh people make YouTube videos and stuff and all the thumbnails out seems like this is too much, this is too dark, and like all the the old farts that like rant on comics like that I that I sometimes watch for my guilty pleasure. Um they were talking about it, but I I didn't listen to it until I read it. I was like, I need to read it, and I just I loved this man.

SPEAKER_06 13:42

It was good.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Like this was such a good issue.

SPEAKER_06 13:44

Yeah, I don't understand why people are hating on absolute Batman's. We we talked about it last time. We talked about the annual um and and and this, like we're talking about Arc Gem, obviously. This is not to play on the words, I guess, but this is absolute Batman. Like, this needs to be over the top, guys. Give me it all. Yeah, this is this is not the main continuity. No, do whatever the heck you want to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Yeah, and honestly, like I don't know if DC's listening to this, but DC, let him cook. Leave Scott alone, whatever he's got it. Just let him like I'm so afraid. Like, whenever a book gets this good now, I get really nervous because I'm like, I don't want the company to step in and go, well, this book's selling.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

I think you should do this.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

This is what the statistics say, and you're gonna be, you know, like I'm so I'm begging and pleading, like, just let Scott, like, because this is so good. And like, I'm getting ready to read uh his uh new 52 run. I bought it, I haven't read it yet, I haven't started reading it, but I did buy it. Um, the Court of Owls run, because I really want to get into that. Because it ties into 18 a little bit, but I just want to know more about them because I think the the little I think the the vibe of the Court of Owls is very cool. It's very cool. Yeah, it's very mysterious and weird.

SPEAKER_06 15:02

One last note, and then I say that's a good segue into 18. Yes, yes, yes. Um, I think I honestly think that everything absolute is is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 15:15

Everything DC is doing that's absolute is is by far like some of the best stuff that has ever been done. Absolute Superman, uh, and I'm gonna talk about that today. Phenomenal, man. Absolute Wonder Woman. I I've I've struggled always to read Wonder Woman. I love it. Yeah, um, I read it on DC Infinite. I'm not pulling it. Um but but but great.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:38

Um it's just it's just great stuff. And this is why DC's killing it right now. Yeah. Um, but anyways.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Well, and and even like uh the 2025 charts, the whole thing was just absolutes. And it was funny because it wasn't even like like one issue, it was like every issue. Like Batman, absolute Batman was like the number two, or like because I know Deadpool and Batman and Deadpool was the top selling book of last year. Yes. Um, and then everything else was just like like absolute Batman this, absolute Batman this, absolute Batman this, absolute Batman, absolute Wonder Woman. And it's just like, you know, man, it's just I love it. I love to see it because man, they're killing it, and this stuff is so good.

SPEAKER_06 16:16

Yeah, it overshadows anything Marvel's doing by leaps and bounds.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Marvel, yeah, man. Marvel take notes. Let your writers do their job, because man, like we're and we're gonna get into all that. I've got to be. It's itching.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

You're you're you're antsy. Um uh so absolutely back in 18.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Oh my gosh. Now, you yesterday I was at home working and you called me and I answered, and you went, dude, have you read it? Have you read it? I was like, no, no, no, no, I haven't, I don't read it. Don't read it, stop doing what you want to read it. And I was like, okay, okay, and I took my break and right there. I stopped doing it, and I read the book, and dude, this was so good. We're gonna cover it real fit fast. But the ending of this book broke my heart. Like it it punched me in the gut, and it kind of was just like like even uh even thinking about it just gives me chills. Like, and I told Elise about it, my girlfriend, I told her, and she was just like, Whoa, that's not the best comment reaction I get ever. Which is good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you want to?

SPEAKER_06 17:23

No, no, no, I summed up Arkham, so you sum up eight.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

So um we get uh we're getting three separate stories, or well, we're getting a couple of stories, actually. So we get a little bit more into Poison Ivy's backstory. Um we see uh her mom carrying her heart in a container, and this is after this lab accident that happened in issue 17 that was talked about. And um her mom thinks that she's dead, and this is all that she has left, and she leaves it in, I guess, this like cooler container thing, or this like a facility, like a morgue facility.

SPEAKER_06 17:54

Yeah, they won't listen to her. Yeah, they won't listen to her.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Her heart was in a jar for sure. And um Ivy said that like her mom was crying and all she wanted to do was reach out because she said she's never felt more alive. And as she's like, she says the harder and harder I tried to reach out, I sort of felt myself doing that, and you see like green vines come out of her heart. So um we're still inside of the um the big plant thing that's in Gotham, and Batman is fighting for his life. You know, he's trying to keep his mask on, Alfred's reaching out, and Alfred's trying to get to get a hold of him. Um don't take the mask off. And he's like, I'm trying not to. So that that's happening. And then um on top of it, we're getting a couple of other stories. We're seeing into Bruce's life again as he's still trying to reconnect with Weyland Jones and Oz and Edward. Um, he's still trying to connect and he's still not having any luck. He's he's going into the sewers yelling out Wayland's name and not hearing anything back. He's going to the I is it the ice, is he in the iceberg lounge, Oz?

SPEAKER_06 18:58

Uh um, I think so. Well so he's getting beat up by Ozzy's language.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

He's like, I'm not stop, I'm not gonna stop coming until you talk to me. And uh then we see him standing outside of Edward Enigma's house and he's just saying riddles to him, just hoping he's gonna let him in. Right. It's really sad. It is heartbreaking. So broken. Yeah. You know, like, and I think that's good. I think it's really good because it it just it it's really relatable. It makes you really feel for Batman. And like you you said this last week. You said, you know, you Batman's not a very relatable character. This Batman is super relatable.

SPEAKER_06 19:35

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Um so we're getting we're getting to see that. Uh and we're also seeing this separate story with Martha. Martha is out in the desert. Um, she makes a call to Bruce, and Bruce doesn't answer, but he he she leaves her him a message saying, like, I love you, I miss you, you know, just I just want to let you know that no matter what, I'm always here for you, and I'm always gonna love you. Um really hard, like it kind of sounded like she was going somewhere she didn't know she's gonna come back from, you know. A van pulls up, the court of owls gets out, they they throw a bag over her head, they throw her in the trunk, and then they take off. So then we keep going back to Batman, he's still fighting Ivy, and um, it's a really insane fight. You know, he's got his he's got his chainsaw arms, chainsaw arms, he's got dude, he's got his um spikes are coming out of his shoulders, like all these people are trying to jump on him and they're just stabbing him. It's insane, it's so good. And Ivy's like continuously transforming, so she's like freaking, getting all freaky and stuff. And um we go back to and if I if I miss any if I miss any. Yeah, I'll jump in. Jump in. Um, but we have um he we go back and we see him walking in the street as Bruce Wayne, and as he's walking, um, he keeps seeing these Batman like little tourists. Yeah, Batman supporters, like, oh buy your Batman merch, you know, buy your Batman shirt, and you know, and he doesn't like it because this is not the image he wants to uphold as Batman. And he's getting mad, and Commissioner Gordon, or not Commissioner Gordon, but Mayor Gordon, yeah. Mayor Gordon comes in and he takes Bruce away, and you know, he's he's talks to Bruce and he's like, um, I know. What do you know? And Bruce is like, what do you know? And he's like, and he just looks at him, he just gives him this look and he's like, So how do you know? And he's like, Come on, Bruce, you're 400 and some pounds, and you're the biggest guy walking around. How do I not know? And I'm like, I'm so glad they did that, because like last week we literally talked about how Bruce Wayne is 400 and some pounds of just pure muscle. He's just this giant dude, and it's just like, cool, I'm glad somebody, you know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? And um, but they sit down and he kind of tells them, like, you know, hey, like, I I you know, I love your mom. But it was it it wasn't not that, like, that sounded really awkward.

SPEAKER_06 21:48

Yeah, it it was more like you know it was it was meant to be sweet. It was a little awkward when somebody says, Hey, I love your mom.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was it was sweet, and Bruce was talking to him, and Bruce was like, I just don't, you know, and he And Bruce opens up and he's like, you know, I don't know how I'm supposed to do this. Like, I don't know how I'm supposed, you know, I'm losing all my friends. I'm, you know, I'm this people aren't looking at me the way I want them to, and I just I don't know what to do. And uh Mayor Gordon, or previously Mayor, is he still the mayor?

SPEAKER_05 22:18

I I he I I think he still is.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

I think he's still the mayor. Yeah, yeah. Um, he tells him, well, something my daughter always says is that, you know, you have to kind of plant yourself like a tree. Kind of says the Civil War thing, you know, like uh but a tree is strongest at its roots or something like that. The tree is strongest at its roots, right? And so, and he said, as long as you protect your roots, you'll be okay. Right. And Batman does quite the opposite. Um, we go back to him fighting, or well, we're also getting uh more of the Court of Owls thing with Martha, right? Right. And they pull a gun on her and they're like, You're not supposed to be making calls. And she's like, hey, there's a lot going on in Gotham. I needed to make a call, I needed to, I needed to reach out, and he's like, Well, we don't do that, and she's like, We're better than this. And apparently, Martha was a talent, an assassin. An assassin of the Court of Owls, and she was the best. Yeah, yeah, she was the best, which is really cool. I want to know more about that. Um, so um, and they're they're saying she's saying, like, this isn't what we stand for, like, this isn't the root of all of this, and the intensity's building because we're going from story back and forth and back and forth, and man, Scott does such a good job with that. Incredible, yes, amazing job, because like if you can keep a story flipping back and forth like that, yeah, dude. That like that's a masterclass in storytelling, especially whenever like an incident that's not tied in, like that has nothing to do with Batman fighting Ivy, but this is building suspense to this. Yes, and they're both like bouncing off of each other for the suspense building, and that's so great, that's so awesome. And um, you know, we get uh sh Ivy is finally about to release these spores all over Gotham because she wants Jack Grimm out. Which, if you don't know, Jack Grimm is the Joker of this universe, and she says, I'm gonna kill it by killing all of it. I'm gonna kill all of his hand. I'm just gonna let it all grow over it. Let it grow. Um poison Ivy, nice being for the trees.

SPEAKER_06 24:15

Yeah, I speak for the trees.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

But um, she just like grabs her, like she just flies out her super evil, like angel demon moth wings. Yeah, yeah. Um, but Batman tells Batman has this like sonar gun, right? Or this like really like a like anti-symbiote gun, honestly. And he's using it against Ivy. And he's like, you know, he's like, I'm gonna, you know, if you I'll shoot you and destroy your heart. And he's like, but I know you can grow it back. But this ain't the same heart that your mom held. That's the only piece of her. Oh, it's sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, that this is the same heart your mom held. This is the only piece of you that's human that's still left. And I can destroy it. I know you can grow it back, but do you really want me to do that? Do you really want to lose that one little bit of humanity that you have left and that connection to your mom? So shut it off. So she does. She's like, okay, I'll shut it off. And um, she also makes a comment to Batman before this, too, saying, if you're gonna beat Jack Grimm, you've gotta, you've gotta switch up your rules. You've gotta play a different game. Right. Um so he he tells her to shut it off, she does. And we're going back and forth between this, and he um you see the the you see him pull the trigger, and he's like, I'm and he shoots her anyway. And she's like, you know, and her heart blows up. And she's like, Why did you do why why? And he said, he said, just like you said, I've got to play this game differently.

SPEAKER_06 25:43

Yeah, and that was so and in the meantime, yeah, the Court of Owls pulls the trigger on Martha.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah, she pulled they pulled the trigger. We don't see that she gets shot, yeah, and according to comic book law, is that if someone doesn't die and they don't show the body, then they're not dead. But we don't know, we don't know. We got issue 19 comes out April 4th. Yeah, yeah. Um so that yeah, and seeing that at the same time, and also we uh as you mentioned on the phone yesterday, we're getting to see Barbara get into get into a little bit of her Batgirl shoes, and she's helping Batman get out, and she's trying to protect him. And as they leave, um, you know, we uh let's see, what happens after that?

SPEAKER_06 26:28

So, so he leaves, and so the whole so at the very beginning of the issue, Martha has been leaving a voicemail.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah, she left that voicemail.

SPEAKER_06 26:35

And that voicemail is saying, you know, I love you. It's it's basically you don't know if you're gonna come back, but I'm proud of you, I love you, never change. Never change, yeah, never change. And Bruce doesn't ever listen to the whole message. No, he listens to the first half and deletes. Yeah. There were there, uh the only other book this week actually in a while that I've read that I I have finished it and I've been like, oh man.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:07

Um that and that was that was this one, and when I talk about Transformers.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Um, but both of them were just like, dude, yeah, man, that yeah, no, it it it was that's it's so deep. Because like Bruce really loves his mom, and that's all he's got left, you know. And before before it shows that, it actually gets take we take a look at the villains again and we see Whalen, and he actually he stands up out of the water and he's human, and we get that we get that Whalen butt. Yeah. We get to see his butt, so hopefully we get Batman Damned 2, you know, Waylon Killer Croc's ass. Dude, this book's gonna sell for$300. I'm calling it right now. I'm calling it right now. Thank you, Snyder. Let's listen. If you're listening, I hope you're listening. Give us more villain butt. So all of our books will be worth some money. That's the only reason. That's the only reason. No, no, no other reason, I swear. Um but but yeah, so we see him get up and he and he's actually yelling, Bruce, Bruce, where are you? And he's not there. Then we see um we see Oz uh get a knock at the door and he goes, Bruce, can't you tell?

SPEAKER_00 28:15

I don't want to talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

And then it's just some delivery guy. He's like, I'm just delivering a package. Yeah. And he's like, Oh. And then we see Harvey Dents being scraped off. Yeah, because he um I forgot to mention that before, he is losing his uh position because of his association with Batman. And because they're considering that to be, I don't know what the exact term is a conflict of insurance. It's a conflict, yeah, and they're they're they're because of that, they're they revol they put him on uh administrative leave, right? And now they're scraping his name off the door. Yeah. And then we see um Edward Nigma, he's in his weird lab and his his hands are like robotic hands. It's really crazy, like how he's slowly transforming into whatever this is, right? And he keeps glancing at the camera, and Bruce isn't in front of his door no more. So we're seeing how like all these people are like, oh man, you know, like I'm not getting it.

SPEAKER_06 29:06

It's like I talked to you yesterday when we were talking on the phone. You know, main universe Batman, right? The big thing is he pushes everybody away. The mission comes first. Right? Batman is this is a priority. I don't care about the family, right? That's stereotypical Batman.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Right.

SPEAKER_06 29:20

So absolute Batman then is gonna take that to the extreme, I feel like. And Scott Snyder is gonna say, well, this is absolute Batman. So he is going to push everyone away. He had his heart, but he realized that the mission is so important that he he's gotta push them all away, he's gotta destroy his roots and start again. And and that's that's tough. I and you know, you knew that this was kind of coming.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:48

Right? Like you kind of knew that Harvey Dent was gonna become Too Faced at some point. You knew that Oswald Cobblepot was gonna become the penguin at some point. Right. You knew that, and so seeing them in the beginning issues being his friends, yeah, like it's coming. I didn't expect it to hurt this much.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I didn't either, and especially because we've we've seen all these, we've seen them, you know, we all we've seen glimpses of their childhood being friends, and then we've seen them, you know, as adults like being very close to each other, and like all of this because of Bane. You know, Bane attacked everybody. Uh I think wasn't Batman, yeah, Batman was still he was in Ark M. He was in Ark M when this happened. And he literally attacked all of his friends because he was just trying to escape Ark M. Yeah. And he thought that would help break him because you know Bane was trying to get Batman to break because Bane wanted um Bane wanted uh Batman to take his place, you know. Um so the fact that all of his friends are broken and they're all just because again, when you see that in issue 12, I think.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

It's back there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah, it's um when you see penguin for the first time and he's all like he just it's so it's so oh my gosh, it's so hard to look at.

SPEAKER_06 31:01

To go back to Arkham real quick, uh I would when I was rereading it, uh so the issue ends with Jack Grimm looking at the computers, he's watching surveillance footage of Batman. Yeah, yeah. And he even says, This guy's not a challenge. Did you catch that?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

I did catch that.

SPEAKER_06 31:16

And uh he's like, I can break him.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah, this is nothing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:19

Like, and he has the file of Man Bat.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Man Bat. Uh uh, what was what's uh Clayface? What's Man Bat's real name? Um Langstrom Kurt Langstrom, um Dr. Pamela Isley, uh Clayface, uh was Basil Carlo. Basil Basil Carlo. And then um Hugo Strange. Was it Hugo Strange? Hugo Strange was on there, uh Jonathan Crane. Um who else? Um I feel like there's somebody else on this. There was somebody else.

SPEAKER_06 31:49

But at the end is the reveal of absolute death stroke.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yes, yes, which um if you look at the variant cover for issue 19, you can actually see him, and it looks like he doesn't have he has stilts for lasers. You didn't notice that. I didn't notice that at first. Yeah, I saw that in an Instagram post. I'm pretty sure, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:03

Um, but man, like this book is incredible. Dude, yeah. Nick Nick Dracada, I believe I'm saying that right. Yeah. Uh he said he'd draw 100 issues. Oh my gosh, please. And I would I will sit with this book as long as Scott Snyder and the team are on it.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

I think I yeah, I will too. I don't think I'm gonna hop off this by any means. This is so good. It's every issue is a is an absolute banger.

SPEAKER_05 32:25

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Absolutely. You know what I mean? And even like even like the, you know, like I don't know what my favorite issue. I think, gosh, I think um, there's so many good ones now. Because originally 14 was my favorite, but also I love 15 because that was the my I was so hyped for that issue. Um, these have been good. Um Ark M's been good.

SPEAKER_06 32:43

There's not been an issue that I've been like, this was boring. This was a bad issue.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

I think my yeah, my least favorite issue was 11. That's still my least favorite. Just because it was like um it was a hypothetical, like the whole issue is like, well, what if this happened? You know, but but again, it was still entertaining. It's still a good issue. Like, I've not had a problem with this book at all. No, um and that's rare nowadays. It's very rare because it feels like because again, like you got me on this, and every book that I have read has just been like, I'm I'm hoping it's good. This is one that I'm just I've every time it comes out, I'm right there ready to read it. I'm ready to buy it, I'm ready to I do I got like two extra variants in my box at the store still that I gotta buy. I got the one in 25. How do you show you what that looks like still? But gosh, it's like it's he's got the his axe up in the air and his cape is flying out, and you can see Joker's reflection. That fight is gonna be insane. Dude, I can ready for that.

SPEAKER_06 33:31

I think we're gonna, but I think I think we mentioned it last time. I think he's gonna wait, Scott Sander's gonna wait till like issue 50.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

That's a long time. That's a long time. That's a really long time. That's what I've it's gonna make it worth it. It will make it worth it. I'm thinking, I want to say it's gonna be 25. Because originally I thought it was gonna be 20. I thought when he gets 20 is when we were gonna get Joker, but also Joker is the final boss. Batman building up his self is to take on Joker. Right. I think Joker's gonna break the shit out of it.

SPEAKER_06 34:02

Oh, I think so, too.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Joker is gonna Joker is gonna be a hard one.

SPEAKER_06 34:05

I could so I could see like issue 25, like they meet for the first time, and Joker just demolishes Batman.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:12

And he to for the next, honestly, I would say for the next 25 issues, it's Joker taunting Batman pretty much.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:20

And and Batman trying to come back. And then issue 50, he's finally worked himself back up.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:28

And you know, I I I think it'd be awesome. Like the conclusion or or when he finally finds a Joker, he has to make up with his friends. And the only way he can beat Joker is with the help of Harvey and Oz and Riddler and all these people.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

That would be That would be really cool. And like it like I don't care how long it takes, I'm gonna stick with it. Because you know, like, even though like I really want to see them fight, I'll be happy to wait. If I have to wait and it just builds and builds, I want it to be worth it. Like, I like I feel like a dog that's like got a stake in front of him, and I'm just like looking at it and drooling. Like, I'm so ready.

SPEAKER_06 35:09

I basically just want to find out Scott Snyder's address and y'all have him my credit card because go sit outside this house and just go, Scott, Scott!

SPEAKER_00 35:19

We haven't done yet! Can I can you can I see it? Where's the where's the absolute joker action figure? I want it! Sign my books!

SPEAKER_01 35:27

He's actually coming uh to a sort of local store. He's I work up in Knoxville, so he's actually coming up there in May. Um I will be there. Yeah. I'm not missing that.

SPEAKER_06 35:37

I I'm I'm thinking about it. That's kind of close to my my my wife is pregnant.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yep, she is just tell it away today, it'll be alright.

SPEAKER_06 35:45

You know, she'll she'll still have about three weeks after that. So but oh, so she won't be she won't be she will be pregnant at that time, but she I don't know if she'd deliver it. The due date's May 28th. And Scott Snyder will be down there what, May 2nd?

SPEAKER_01 35:58

May 2nd, yep.

SPEAKER_06 35:59

So it'll still be a few weeks.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 36:02

Uh and I'm I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about you on with you. It'd be awesome if we could get him on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

That would be great. I actually um not to I don't want to I have a friend who has been talking to him because he has a comic channel. Yeah. And I was like, could you push the podcast to him and let him know that we really like his book?

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

I'd love to have him on. That would be awesome. I don't know if we can get him to my house. We can zoom in or something. We can probably see, yeah, we'll figure it out. Scott, you want to come to my house? We can drink on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Sign all of my books. You can sign all my books and I'll make you uh beat Bicky Pizza Rolls. Dude, dude, my macro cheese is amazing.

SPEAKER_06 36:42

Your hash brown casserole is that we get Scott's night.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Scott, okay, all right, hear me out, Scott. Would you come by my house and record a podcast? I'll make you hash brown casserole. We can eat and chit-chat. Um, we can you can sign all my books for free, hopefully.

SPEAKER_06 37:00

He comes on and he's like, it'll be$500.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

I I have a$500 uh presence fee. It's like, I'll give you six and sign all my books. He's like, make it seven and it's a deal. Done, done easily. Best experience of my life.

SPEAKER_06 37:16

Um okay, so do we want to keep any other comments you have until we get into some other books?

SPEAKER_01 37:21

I think I'm I I do you want to reiterate this real quick?

SPEAKER_06 37:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we know what the I think we know. Yeah, I think so, too.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

This is beyond the bulls. This is beyond it for sure. Because man, absolutely beyond the bullish. Because I'm buying the variants, I'm still waiting on an actual figure. I know they're coming out with a figure um still. I don't know when it's gonna come out, but there's a prototype of one. They uh they still got the hot toys. I'm still thinking about it. It's$385. Hey Scott, can you give me one of those for free? Um I'll proudly sponsor your book forever. Unless DC gets a hold of it, then I'll be like, Scott, please make it better.

SPEAKER_06 37:58

Uh no, I this is beyond the pull list for me. Uh I I'm actually only reading it on DC Infinite right now. Um, but I this is absolutely one of the ones that I would go to the comic book store right now and say, put me on.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Yeah, and and if you're if you're not pulling this book, if you're interested in pulling that weekly, um they are reprinting the crap out of this. And and rightfully so. This is a good, this is a this is a good one for them to do it because there is plenty of reprints out there for everybody to get a hold of. If you're looking for a first print, it's gonna be a little hard. They're a little they're a little bit up the price, your side, I think. The absolute Batman issue one first print selling for like anywhere from like$300 to$400.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

But hey, I mean, if that's what you mean, I I I I just wanted a cover A, like all my I have all I have a couple of first prints, but a lot of them are reprints. And you know, I just wanted to have all the covers. Which I'm I'm glad they're doing that and they're not doing like because a lot of comics, when they do reprints, they'll take a panel from in the book and make that the cover. And I'm really glad they're reprinting the cover, the title, um, the absolute Batman like logo is a different color on all of the reprints, but the cover's the same, which I'm happy. I'm thinking DC, thank you for doing that. That's really great.

SPEAKER_06 39:08

Now, now, before we get into some other books, you are a variant collector of what I would consider.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

Variant collector, yes.

SPEAKER_06 39:14

I I really just care about the story. I don't care if I have second, third, fifth, seventh, eighteenth, twenty, whatever reprints. I just want the story.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

And I'm I'm at the point now where like I with variants, I don't I'm not going too crazy with it. I've really watered it down. Venom, when Donnie Cates was writing Venom, dude, I was on everyone. I was dude, dude. King and Black killed me because they had all the ty-ins and I bought all the ty-ins and all the cover. It was bad. It was really bad. It was bad. I remember that. I'm glad that I'm I'm not glad that it's over, but I'm glad that I'm not having to spend all that money on it. Um but yeah, no, this is one I'm I'm not buying all the variants, but this is the first book that I think I'm I actually bought them all. Okay. Um, but um um I'm happy with cover A. Uh, Dragata's art's really good. But then every once in a while there's another cover that's like, ooh, I gotta have that one. I like that one. Um, you know, but this is it's such a good book, man. It's such a good book. But yep, Beyond the Pool list.

SPEAKER_06 40:04

Beyond the pool list for me too.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

So now, Clayton. I'm on the show. We missed you last week. Yeah, because I yapped for a little while.

SPEAKER_06 40:11

Um so I'll make this quit.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Uh hey, take as much time as you need. If we go, if we run over, screw it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um might be a long episode today, boys.

SPEAKER_06 40:21

It might be, so buckle in.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Buckle in, grab your mountain dude, crack that sucker open. You know, get you.

SPEAKER_06 40:25

So I have, like I said, a few issues I want to talk about, a few series I want to talk about. And the first one uh I'm still like processing in my head today. And that's Transformers. And which is weird because you know, I grew up watching the movies. Like, that's the only movie I watched in theaters like seven, eight times.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

The Michael Bates. The I think the third movie, the third movie I've seen, it's my record movie. Yeah. I've seen it eight times. Yeah, I've seen it eight times in theaters. It's darker than the moon.

SPEAKER_06 40:50

And so I I was a big fan of the movies, big fan of the show. I never really read the comics. Um, but when Daniel Warren Johnson's run started in 2023, I'm like, oh man, I want to hop on this. Like, this just looks good. And so I've been reading it, and um recently Robert Kirkman, creator of Invincible, took over. Really? Yes, yeah. So he took over with issue 25, and where issue 30 released yesterday. And uh I'm gonna give you a quick summary. So basically, what's happening is the Autobots crash-landed on Earth, the Decepticons crash-landed on Earth, uh, they've been basically frozen for all these years, yada yada yada. Uh but there's still the war going on in Cybertron. So you have a small remnant of Autobots on Earth, you have a small group of them on Cybertron, and you have a small group of Decepticons as well. And so, of course, you know, they're going at it, they're fighting and everything. And so right now, Optimus is leading a team on Earth. And then Alita One is leading a team on Cybertron.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 41:53

That's long super long story short. So, this issue today, or yesterday, issue 30 came in, and Alita One has come to Earth, and she says, basically to Optimus, you're neglecting Cybertron. Why are you focusing on this backwater planet of Earth? Why does this matter? You're wasting our time, we're losing the war because you're not you don't care anymore. You you are not sufficient enough to lead the Autobots anymore. And everybody's like, no, back off. This is Optimus Prime.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:24

You know, you don't mess with Optimus. Yeah. And Optimus says, you know, I'm sorry you feel that way, basically. Um, but I feel like we have a responsibility to these people on earth. We brought our war here. It is our our responsibility. Whereas Optimists will say, it is our responsibility. It is our responsibility. But we did that unplanned, synchronism.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

But the Michael Bay.

SPEAKER_06 42:54

Yeah. Um, but anyways, so Optimus says this is our responsibility. We have to do this. And she she starts beating up on him. Alita starts beating up on Optimus, and he takes it. He won't fight back. And he says, uh, you know, he he lets her beat him up. And he says, This isn't how, but this isn't he stops her. He like catches her fist midair. And he says, This isn't how we do things. We are not like the Decepticons. And um he says, I'll do this, I'll do things the way we're supposed to. And he takes out the matrix of leadership from his spark. And he says, We'll let the matrix decide who is going to be the next leader of the Autobots. And so there's this big like kind of flash, and it's like, Arise, Alita Prime. And so she becomes the next prime. And all the Autobots are like, What is happening right now? Like, this is insane. Yeah. And um and then it's just like Orion Pax, which is what Optimus was before he became Optimus Prime. He's just kind of small.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 43:52

Uh and and I I don't imagine Peter Cullen's voice anymore. I just hear like Chris Hemsworth again. And uh

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:03

So she says that the Matrix has decided. So all the Autobots are going to come with me to Earth or back to Cybertron. And we're going to defeat them there. But if you stay on Earth, you're no longer an Autobot. Optimus says, Well, I still feel a responsibility here, so I'm going to stay here. And you see Alita leave with this massive group of Autobots going back to Cybertron. And like one panel is Optimus smiling as they look at him, and then the moment they turn their backs, he like looks down at the ground. And it makes you think like Optimus is the last one on Earth. The last Autobot say his symbol is all scratched off. They scratch it off. And the last panel is a small team of Autobots, like RC, Cliff Jumper, uh, and just like maybe like five or six others. And that's it. The rest of them went with Alita. Wheeljack is with them, and um they said, What do we do now? And um they all have their symbols scratched off. Oh man. And uh Optimus says we finished the mission. And uh I I read that today and I was like, man. That's wow.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:14

Um but it was it was so good. The art is dude, the art is incredible. It's Dan Mora. Uh I think this was his last issue though. Uh and the next one's he's doing work for DC right now, so he I mean he's busy. Um but it was it's incredible. And um man, I I was just blown away by it. And this is a beyond this is a beyond the pull list for me. Absolutely. Oh wow, yeah, that already is good. Yeah, it is so beautiful. Wow. And I was just this seeing Optimus, you it they really made you think Optimus is it. That is, he is the only one left on Earth.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:55

And like, how is he gonna fight Megatron and Soundwave and all these other Decepticons?

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:01

Uh so maybe I can get you on Transformers.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

It looks good. It's good. Because I, you know, I've I grew up also a big Transformers fan. I love the movies. I still love the movies. A lot of people I don't like I don't like four and beyond.

SPEAKER_06 46:14

I don't like four or five. I like Bumblebee. Bumblebee's good. And I like Rise of the Beast.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

I haven't watched it yet. I haven't watched Rise of the Beast, but I have watched I've watched all of them. My the my least favorite was The Last Night. That one was I watched it on my birthday and I was just like uh the first three though? The first three Avenge of the Fallen, Dark of the Moon, and amazing, amazing. I would some of the best pieces of cinema. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 46:37

I I would put down some of the best movies almost ever created.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Oh yeah. No, I you know, honestly, I would too. Because like, and I hate because I hate in like the new ones when they transform, it's just like and that's it. But in the first one, man, it took a minute. Yeah, and you just got to look at how beautiful it was just to see everything working.

SPEAKER_06 46:54

Especially the first time you saw Optimus Transform. Yeah, yeah. You know, and you hear the music, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

And then the like the one at the end where he's like he's riding up and then he drifts and then just transforms mid and that music's playing, and then Megatron. You know, it's just so good.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

And Megatron throws his jazz's body, he's like brrrrrrh, you know.

SPEAKER_06 47:16

It's so the series is so good. I'm actually, there's actually a post coming up on Comic Nation 1776 um on Monday about why you should read Transformers.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

I will look at that because I I I might I might I might look at it. What is it, IDW?

SPEAKER_06 47:33

It is image. Image, okay. And like I said, it's written by the same who Robert Kirkman, Walking Dead, Invincible. I mean, this guy, Robert Kirkman. He's a good writer, and it feels almost like his invincible writing. Like he is building up something really great. And and I that's where I think this is going because there's been a controversy with this issue because they're like, uh uh Alita could never be Optimus. Yeah, Optimus Prime is the greatest warrior to ever live.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

And I'm like But this is this is I think that's establishing that.

SPEAKER_06 48:05

I think it's I think it's I think it is. I think it's establishing that she's gonna have to go through this and she's gonna realize that the the Matrix is kind of testing her.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Yeah. Right? Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:16

Optimus is a great leader, not because he's the greatest fighter, not because of this, but because of his heart.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:22

And and his engine. Yeah. His engine. Yeah, yeah. Um, so beyond the pool list for me. Okay. Definitely recommend checking.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

It sounds really good. Yeah. It sounds really, really good. Because that's something like uh I just there's no better trope in a story than when a hero is stripped of everything. Yes. You know what I mean? Because that's when you have to really prove like, are you the hero that you're supposed to be?

SPEAKER_06 48:46

And what better character do that than the Super Prime?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Yeah, like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_06 48:49

So I might I might check that out.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

I think that's a good that sounds like a good read.

SPEAKER_06 48:52

Okay, uh, so moving on, I'm gonna go to Superman.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Superman.

SPEAKER_06 48:56

Currently being written by Joshua Williamson, another fantastic writer. Um kinda this one is kind of coming off the heels of the DC event, DC KO. Uh, I'm sure you've seen the stuff around where they're doing like the brackets, everybody fights. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so the plot of that story is that uh Darkseid died, and what that's released the absolute universe. And in order to, because basically the the energy of Dark Side is a cosmic force and it has to find its host. Yeah. And without a host, it's chaos energy everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 49:29

And so these heroes and these villains are fighting to who's gonna be the next champion. And so Superman right now is kind of coming off the heels of that. They've reintroduced uh Superboy Prime. Um he is a character from the 80s who broke the fourth wall before Deadpool did. Okay. So he knows he's in an event, but he has the powers of Superman.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_06 49:51

Um and it it's it's been okay. Most of Joshua Williamson's run has been good, very great. Um, but this one is just an on the pull list book. Um I can't I can't really give much of the story right now because it is coming off of a tie-in.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Right. Um so are you reading that tie-in? I know a lot of people are on DC KO.

SPEAKER_06 50:10

I read DCKO on DC Infinite, and it was good. It was a really great event because it was um Did Batman win? No. Lex Luther actually won first. Whoa. But Superman ended up uh kind of making the final victory.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 50:26

And Dark Side is back. It and uh he kind of teases at the end of DCKO that the next big DC event, whenever that is, is gonna be uh like chaos crisis or something like that. Crisis, uh something like that.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Yeah. Um I really you don't do you think that the this you don't think this next event's gonna do kind of what Ultimate did, where it's gonna affect all these absolute books? Or do you think these absolute books will kind of be just doing their own thing? I hope that I hope that they're doing their own thing.

SPEAKER_06 50:51

I think somebody said recently, and I want to say it was Scott Snyder, said that the absolute universe is gonna have their first crossover soon.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 51:01

Um I don't think that's gonna be a dark side. I don't think that's gonna have anything to do with dark side yet. I think eventually they will cross over, but I don't think it's gonna affect this story.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 51:13

Um I could see in the next couple months, maybe like the summer, maybe late fall, early fall, like absolute Superman and Absolute Batman will cross over.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Oh, I mean, yeah, that's I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering like if it's gonna be like a oh well like this event, like these like Dark Side's back, and he's gonna do this thing, and the absolute people like I'm I'm literally I'm literally like comparing this to Ultimate Endgame and being like, please don't do that. Like please like I want this book to keep going. Yeah, I don't want this to be an ultimate Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_06 51:42

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_06 51:43

Uh I think we're I think we're safe. So Superman right now isn't on the pull list. Um it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 51:50

But absolute Superman.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Uh-huh. I heard you talk about it.

SPEAKER_06 51:53

This has also been another great series. Okay. Um, issue 17 came out uh last week. Okay. And um dude, this is another one I really want you to read. So this Superman is a little bit different. Okay. He was not sent to Earth as a child.

unknown 52:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 52:11

He was sent to Earth uh as probably like, let's say, a 10-year-old kid. He's a little bit grown up. Because uh Krypton didn't just didn't blow up till much later.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 52:22

So the S on his chest in this universe. So Krypton is built on a caste system. So you have the the High, which is the Science Council, which in Superman main universe, that's what Jorel and Laura L are. The science, the high council. Yeah. But in this universe, he's at the very bottom. They're worker class. So they're called the the the the men the people of steel. Uh and so that that's the S is that insignia that they get kind of forced on them.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

Got it. Okay. Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_06 52:57

So, anyways, basically this book uh starts out, and the main villain is Raj Alghul. Okay. Uh, and all that. So when we come to issue 17 and issue 16, Rajah Ghul is in prison. Superman's finally defeated him. And Superman, so there's also Lazarus Corp. And that was that's been mentioned in Absolute Batman. And the Lazarus Court is is core is um Raj Alghul's company.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 53:27

Like the Lazarus Pits. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a corporation. And um so they're this like overarching kind of evil corporation that has its hands everywhere and has been around forever. Yeah. And the issue 16 starts out and it begins to tell the story of absolute hawkmen. And he he stops um the guy, uh some Nazis from getting their hands on some ancient artifacts, yeah, and he in the process becomes uh absolute hawkman. And there's a really cool scene in Absolute Superman 16 where he finally catches up with Superman. And this Superman had to like start from the bottom when he came to Earth. Like he started with nothing, and he has the long hair, he's almost kind of emo at first, and his suit's even black in the beginning. Okay. Um, and then after some big battles and some things happen, he finally gets the blue suit, and you can see that he's finally becoming like Superman, kind of more hopeful. He's kind of starting to see the good. And um, so he there's a really cool scene in issue 16 where Absolute Hawkman is talking to Absolute Superman. Yeah. And Superman just keeps flying off. He'll he'll come back and he's like, Oh, sorry, I heard a plane crashing in in Bangladesh. And uh he's like, But what do you want to talk about? And so Absolute Hogman gets a few sentences and he flies off again and he comes back. He's like, sorry, I hear some people crying. And absolute Hawkman is like, you do that again, and I will knock you through like 15 cities. He's like, But people need help. And uh so the Lazarus Corps has sent the peacemakers, because they're a unit rather than one person, like a peace, like the peacemaker from John Cena.

SPEAKER_02 55:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:11

Um, they have unleashed the parasite.

SPEAKER_03 55:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 55:15

Uh, the purple monster from Superman, who, if he touches you, he drains your powers. Yes. Okay. But in this one, it's like a horror monster. And he feeds on your fears and your adrenaline, and that's what he feeds on, not your your physical energy. And uh it just is growing and growing, it's taking over Metropolis. And so in this conversation, uh Absolute Hawkman says, If you do that again, I'm gonna knock you out. And so Absolute Superman hears the screams in Metropolis of the Parasite. And his cape in this is not just like a flowy cape, it is the living ashes of Krypton. It's like a sentient AI, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:51

Okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:51

And it wow and it wraps around Absolute Hawkman, and then he's like, Alright, fine, if I can't do that again, you're coming with me. And people eyes out of the metropolis, and they're trying to stop this monster. And so Absolute 17 picks up, and they're Superman says, I can I can hear their voices, and like Jimmy's getting sucked in, Lois is getting sucked in, and and they're just feeling like this fear.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:15

And Superman says, We've gotta get this these people away from these creatures. We've gotta we've gotta pull them away. And Absolute Hawkman says, No, I've got this, and like flies through the monster. Oh. And that kind of really starts causing problems. They have a brief like fight, like you can't you can't just do that. Like, this is connected to millions of people.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:36

And Superman is able to rescue Lois, and he's able to rescue her. She's like, I felt calm with you because of who you are and like what you inspire in us. And so eventually, absolute Superman and Absolute Hawkman get wrapped up in the parasite.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 56:50

And so they they have to live their biggest fears or who they are. And so Hawkman is powerless and he's getting wrapped up in like these vines, he can't like get out. And Superman appears to him as the child, like the 10-year-old boy that he was sent to Earth because that's how he still sees himself.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:06

And uh he he's he's not consumed with fear, right? He's consumed with hope. So the monster can't affect him.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_06 57:13

And so he's talking to all the millions of people wrapped up in the parasite, but he's talking to Hawkman, and he basically says, Um, because we're connected in this monster, I know who you actually work for. And if you come after me and you're trying to stop me, tell them I'm coming for them next. And like his eyes like hit up red, and yeah, and Hawkman is just kind of like terrified.

SPEAKER_03 57:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:39

And meanwhile, Talia Al Ghul breaks her father out. Man, issue I think it was issue 15. Uh-huh. Superman is trying to rehabilitate Raj Alghul.

SPEAKER_03 57:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:50

And like it shows a period of months and months and months, and he visits him every day in prison and he tries to read him prayers, or he tries to read him like some kind of literature or something to like show him like there's still hope in the world. Yeah. And the end of this issue, you see Raj Alghul, he thinks about staying in prison because of what Superman has done for him.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:09

Like giving him hope. And finally he ends it and he he puts down the book and he goes with Talia and he says, I'm sorry, Superman, but some people you just can't change. And uh and that's how the issue ends.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Oh, dang.

SPEAKER_06 58:25

And so this is a beyond the pull list for me. Another absolute book that I if you're not reading, you need to be writing.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

So two absolute books on Do you think Wonder Woman is a beyond the pool list?

SPEAKER_06 58:36

Oh yeah, for sure. Now the I'm a little bit more behind on Wonder Woman though, because again, I read on DC Infinite for some stuff. If I'm like really enjoying it, I'm gonna pull the physical copies. Yeah. But I read on DC Infinite, and so uh DC Infinite is a month behind. So I'm I'm a month or two behind on Absolute Wonder Woman. Okay, okay. Um so that's why I've not talked about it because I'm kind of I'm behind on that.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Yeah, you're still catching up on it. Okay. Well, I mean, but hey, we've got two absolute yeah, absolute Batman and Absolute Superman that are both beyond books. Yeah, and Transformers. Transformers is beyond, so um one last book for me. One more.

SPEAKER_06 59:08

Uh that's Adventures of Superman Book of L. I'm torn on this one.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:13

Philip Kennedy Johnson is the writer. Man, he is a fantastic writer. Well, wrote my favorite Superman story of all time, Superman Warworld. Um phenomenal. And this book is his last kind of he didn't get to finish telling his story. Um it was Superman Warworld. And so this is him kind of trying to wrap this up. But there's been delays and there's been some problems, and so it's it's a story that I'm going to say for now, it's an on the pull this book.

SPEAKER_02 59:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 59:43

Um, because what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna wait till I have all the issues, and I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna reread it. Because I think some books do better like that, right? Like some books do better as like a cohesive rather than singles. Yeah, yeah. And so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying that um this is gonna be a better sit down and read than a single issue every month.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:04

Uh so this one is uh if if if it was based solely on the singles, I'd say it's an off off the pull list. But I'm trying to judge it as a whole. Okay. Um and I'm gonna say right now it's an on.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:17

And and so basically, I guess I need to give a little bit of summary. So Adventures of Superman Book of Ale is Superman has adopted two other kids, and they're from um basically, if I remember correctly, the moon of Krypton. So they have Kryptonian powers that's just not as strong as Kryptonians.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:36

And uh he's adopted them, and so this story is basically in the future, I'd say like 300 years. So it's kind of hard to tell because Superman gets pulled into the future to basically meet his great-great-grandkids, I guess that would be.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:53

Great-great-grand, whatever. Um, and so it's a little like hard because I don't remember because of the delays, because there's been delays.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:02

And I'm like, well, I don't remember this character. Who is this? Because it's been three months since I read the last issue.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so right now I won't say it's an on. Is it three months apart?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:12

Is that how much it's no, it's supposed to be monthly, but I think there was a delay, and for some reason there was like a three-month delay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

I'm gonna say that reminds me of um uh uh Aliens versus Avengers. Oh, yeah. That book was like a five months apart issue, and that was the worst in the world. It was good, because it's like I'm tired of waiting five months for a freaking issue. Like, you know what I mean? It's like you read it in 20 minutes, you're like, okay, I'm ready for the next one. I guess I'm gonna have to wait until you know I'm I'm 26 years old. I'll be older when the next one comes out.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:39

So so those are my books. Okay. Um I uh beyond the pool list for me is Transformers and Absolute Superman, an absolute batman.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Yes. And then you're staying on for Superman.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:49

I'm gonna stay on for Superman and I want to stay on for Adventures of Superman Book of L. But you're a little off. I'm a little off.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

A little off. Like you got you've got a you're you're kind of on the bull.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:57

I'm I'm I'm yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

The bulls, yeah, you're you're holding on.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:00

I'm on both sides of the fence right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Yeah, okay, okay, I got you. Um, well, I am only reading one other thing, sort of. Um I guess it's technically two books, but I'm gonna review it as one. Okay. Um, because they're they're crossing over. Otherwise, I would only be reading one book. Um uh Spider-Man Venom Death Spiral. This started um two weeks ago, yeah, two weeks ago. And it's been every week, so they drop a new issue every week. The first issue was a one-shot kind of crossover book called Spider-Man slash Venom Death Spiral, and then it's going back and forth between Amazing and Venom and Amazing and Venom. So uh last week it was Amazing Spider-Man issue. What issue is this? Um I can't see either. Oh uh issue 23. Okay. Um don't know what the legacy number of that is, but um issue 23 was the part two of Death Spiral, and then Venom, issue 255, is part three, and then I think Spider-Man 24 will be next.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

Um and then it's gonna go back and forth. I think Death Spiral is a s what is it a six-part event? Oh, it's nine part event. Wow. Oh, that's gonna be a lot of money. Um so, first of all, um whenever we talked yesterday on the phone, um, I can I told you I was gonna give you a rating of this. And I was gonna do my rating, was gonna be how much sand would this book make me ingest? Um, which is weird. I was like, I was like, you know, because I had said like I would rather eat sand than read this book. And you were you said, How much sand would you eat? And I was like, I don't know yet. Depends on what was it? 10 was 10 is sandman like suffocating me with sand. Um like literally, like sandman's like, you're hungry, I'm gonna keep feeding you.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:40

Right. And one was um You're at the beach by accident and a grain of sand, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

Yeah, one is I I'm at the beach having a good time, and I got some sand in my mouth, you know what I mean? Um the tin would also be sand in every orifice of my body, including me crying tears of sand. Um so I forgot about that. Um okay. So um, as you know from the last episode, I have been reading Venom and I have not been enjoying it. I said it was an off-the-pool list book because it was just, it doesn't feel like Venom. You know, especially being a big Donnie Cates Venom fan, that was the best Venom run I've ever had.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

Um so we've gotten very far off with Al, and Al has been very, I don't know what he's doing. He's doing some weird, weird things um with Venom, but uh MJ is Venom. Venom has this weird gold look to him. He's got this gold spider, um, which is called the Urnak, which is the word carnage in reverse. Um I think that's really stupid, and it's a mixture of it's got molten man's blood in it with some magic in there from Loki to make the Urnak. I don't I don't know. Um Al's, you know, they're passing the crack pipe in the Spider-Man office, because that's the only way these guys know how to write anything. Um so, in regards to Death Spiral, I read all I read the first three parts because that's all that's out, because part three came out this week, and I'm not hating it. I don't think it's bad, I don't think it's good. Okay. Um it's it's interesting. So a little perspective is that um right now you've got Peter Parker who just came back from space. He's trying to get readjusted to being Spider-Man again, and and everybody's been looking for him. Um little bit of connection, you read the first issue of this, so a little bit of connection to Absolute Batman is that he's getting all these messages and he's deleting them all. So they read Absolute Batman and they were like, oh well, well, I well they couldn't have because it wasn't out yet, but maybe they called and you know, they're like, oh, let's do that times 10. That's all sub books. Um let's have Spider-Man delete seven messages where Batman only deleted one, you know. Um see, see, we're better, we're better, see, we're better, we make we make the snakes higher. You know, it's just like all these messages being like, hey, just wanted to chit chat, see how you do. Delete. And then Batman's like his mom, who's possibly dead. Right. Um But um uh but yeah, Spider-Man's back on Earth. He's trying to re-figure his life out, he's trying to get all of his, you know, his it being Peter again. Because you didn't know Norman was Spider-Man for a while. Um, and then also uh Ben Riley, who's chasm, was pretending to be Peter Parker for a while.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:17

Okay, so I had I had missed out on the card.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:19

Yeah, a lot of that stuff is going on. I've I haven't been reading Amazing. That's just what that's kind of what the it's it's insinuated in these three books. So that's happening. Eddie Brock is Carnage, and he's trying to uh in order the whole situation with Carnage is that Carnage is trying to find its new host. So in order to stay alive, for some reason, Carnage now has to kill people to stay alive. Just because if he it's his kind of hunger, I guess. Um and the deal that they made was that if Eddie Brock runs into someone, a serial killer who he can't kill, Carnage will take over and let Eddie die. So that's their little deal they made. But Eddie is holding on to the symbiote because he thinks that's the best way to keep the Carnage symbiote under control. Right. Um, which doesn't really make that much sense, but whatever. And then you got MJ, who is the all-new venom, and she's just rocking, being a rocking hot girl with the symbiote, and everything's great, and she's a bad bitch. Nothing's wrong. Which I hate because there is no character development there. I hate that. There should be there's the stakes should be so high with that, but what whatever. Who cares? I don't know. Who cares? Nothing matters anymore. Um nothing matters. Um, but I just want Spider Man! I just I just want um but we get this new villain who I think looks really cool as well. He looks super cool, his name's Torment. He's an all-white character who has these red lines almost look like symbiote like like muscles all over his body, and on his face it makes a spiral. And his whole thing is that he goes through family trees killing off everybody till he gets to the very last person because the very last person who's on the family tree is the most is the youngest, so you know you've wiped their whole family out, you just gotta get him. Right. Which is weird because you should you should start from the bottom and go up so they can't reproduce, but whatever. Um, but so um Peter gets reacquainted with MJ, he finds out that MJ's venom, and he's like, What? Um and they actually have a human conversation that feels normal. And the symbiote's also present, which doesn't feel awkward. Um, there's some good moments in there. Um there's some hope in this book because there's one scene that um I really loved when uh Eddie Brock actually goes to Wax, hang on, I got a couple things in order. Let me cover this in order because I have a list, because these are all my key takeaways from the book that I was not happy with. Um first of all, um, they make it pretty clear that Carnage now knows Peter's identity. Eddie Brock leaves Peter Parker a voicemail saying, Carnage knows who you are. We have to do like we have to do something. But he doesn't know that Eddie is Carnage yet. He doesn't know that. He thinks Eddie's still Venom. Um which is weird because if you read Absolute Carnage, you would know that Carnage knew who Peter was in that book. So somebody didn't do their homework. Valuing Spider-Man Office. Whatever. Because if you don't know, real quick, um, the editorial office for Spider-Man is the same as Venom. So it's Spider-Man, Venom, and Hulk, they all three share an office. Still. Yes, it's a very weird combination. Um, so there's that one. Uh, Flash also doesn't know that Peter Parker is Spider-Man, which doesn't make sense towards the continuity, because if you would read the book, you would know that he does, especially if you read Spider-Man 800. Yeah. Because, yeah, um, whatever. So Flash doesn't know that Peter's Spider-Man anymore. Um, there's a scene where Eddie Brock actually goes to check in on Dylan for the first time in forever. Oh my gosh, finally, because if you forgot, Eddie Brock has a son, and his name's Dylan, and he was Venom until Al was like, oh, I think MJ would be better as Venom, and does did that. I'm not gonna try not to be mean. Sorry, I'm trying not to be mean.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:52

But but Dylan is living with Paul.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:53

Dylan is living with MJ and Paul, everybody's favorite character, yeah, which uh him and MJ are living together because Paul's apartment got blown up, so he has to live with her. Um because they just they just hate Paul. And also, uh funny enough, in this book, Eddie Brock is like, oh, you're staying with Paul? Like, oh, we hate Paul. But Eddie has never met Paul. Eddie has never met this character. And I also hate this because my name is Paul, and everybody's talking about how much they hate Paul. So I'm kind of taking it a little bit personally. I'm trying not to. Um, but yeah, so that was weird because I was like, they've never met, so what what's up with that? Um MJ and Flash are flirting. Yeah, that was really weird. Really weird. Um and MJ, I guess, likes it. I don't know. Yeah, she's they're calling themselves the what what was it? They they refer it to the um the outside the box. Outside the box or something weird, yeah, whatever. Yeah. And then um, but my favorite part is that when Paul reaches out to MJ to say, hey, Eddie Brock just showed up here to talk to Dylan, and Dylan and Dylan's really upset. Um, Venom says to MJ, he's here, he's alive. Oh my gosh, like we we should have been there. So I it's giving me a little bit of that fire, just kind of, but it's kind of sparked a little bit in my heart because I'm like, maybe they're gonna get reunited? Venom's gonna be Eddie Brock again, please. Because I just don't like it being MJ because there's no good character development there. Um but um we have that the Spider-Man issue tie-in. That was that was the Deathfire issue, the first issue. The Spider-Man tie-in wasn't bad. It was kind of Peter trying to re-get with his life. Also, Aunt May's got a boyfriend. I love Octamius? No, no, no, no, not this time. It's I don't know what his name is, but apparently she says that the the whoopee makes her feel better. So I guess they're it's clear that hanky panky. They're doing hanky panky. Aunt May's getting in. Peter isn't what? Come on! Like, all we want is Peter and MJ to be together and freaking like Yeah, Marvel and Marvel's like, let's let's let Aunt May get some.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:55

Yeah. Yeah. But they're also like, what if we put Flash Thompson and Mary Jane Watson together? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:01

That's what everybody really wants. And you know, uh, you know, and and like and clearly they haven't read freaking anything that came before all this because they don't know any of like they think Eddie and Paul know each other, they think Flash is an O Peter is, they they act like it's it's it's confusing because it's like did did like YouTube tutorial videos on how this shit works is not enough to write these comments. So sorry, Spider-Man Office. You guys need to read the books. You should have them all in print. You could probably reprint them all again. Jesus, whatever. Um, but then you have the Spider-Man issue. It was actually really good. Um it felt like the it felt like the dialogue was good. It didn't feel like the story was um, I was really afraid that because like the Venom books have been really like cartoony and very like not good in dialogue. Um, but this was good in dialogue, so I really liked the Spider-Man tie-in. Then I read the Venom tie-in, and it was also pretty good. Um the art was really good. Um But the they find out that uh Eddie Brock is Carnage, and um they uh Eddie or uh yeah, Eddie Brock Carnage learns that the way Torment works is that he's trying to go through the l go down the family tree. Okay. And he also learns that if you didn't pay attention to the end of issue one, which I completely forgot to say, um Carnage, the Carnage Symbiote, has been stealing Eddie's phone while he sleeps and has been texting Torment. So they have been kind of in cahoots and they've been talking.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:23

Quick question though. Uh is Eddie homeless? Because that's what it seems to imply at Death Spiral.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:29

They don't say. They I don't know. Eddie's just been being Carnage. Well, I guess so. He's just kind of been going from place to place doing things, like been killing people. He's not really lived anywhere. Okay. Um, he's literally just been on the run forever. But he's paying his phone bills. Yeah, he's paying his phone bill. Yeah, you know, that's a great point. You know, he's paying that phone bill. Um what, dude, what the what is this, man? Ugh. It's a mess.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:53

Marvel editors listening, and they're like, dude, it's just a book.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:56

Yeah, dude, this is just like one of our just we don't even really care. It's just an event, it makes us money, you know. Um, but um we find out that uh at the end of the Spider-Man issue, I forgot to say this too, is that Torment kills Shocker and takes his gauntlets. Uh-huh. Because that is one of the only things that can be used to deter symbiotes. Or it's a it's a tool that can deter symbiotes. So he's coming after Venom, and he knows because Carnage told him who Venom is, and it's Mary Jane Watson. So he also um in the Venom issue, when uh Carnage, Eddie Brock learns that he goes after the family tree, he's rushing to his dad's house, Carl Brock, which for some r I don't know why he's in New York, because if you read Donnie Cage Run, he lives in San Francisco. So I don't know where that move happened, but whatever. I guess, you know, again, the YouTube tutorial forgot to cover that part. Um uh he gets there to save his dad, and Torment is sitting in his chair. His dad is in the floor dead, and he says, Hello, I'm I'm excited to see you. And it said carn it doesn't say uh it says Torment rules with blood on the wall, with his dad's blood. But in the previous issue, when he killed um when he killed Shocker, it said Carnage ruled. Like he Carnage used to rule, but now Torment's here. Um I really think we're leading to Cassidy being Torment because we haven't seen Cassidy in a while. I don't know what what he's doing. Last time there was like two of him. There was a clone and then like a there was a real one and then a not real one. It was weird. Okay, strange. So I guess that's what it's gonna be. But so far, this has felt like more of a symbiote book than the Venom, like because Venom for the past few issues has been it does not feel like Venom. Right. You know, it feels like some weird, obscure characters meeting together, and this just happens to be venom. Because even Venom doesn't look like Venom, right? Right. So um that's why I've really not liked it because I feel like I'm not reading my book anymore. You know, it feels like when you're reading a book with symbiotes, or like it's like a Batman book becomes bright, colorful, and happy. You know, that doesn't, that's not normal, you know. So this has been more enjoyable than the stuff I've been reading. So I'm definitely gonna say for me, it's an on the pool list book. It is not beyond. Um, I I tell you what, I am buying one variant today of it because Clayton Crane did it, and anything Clayton Crane does, I'm a sucker for. Um, I'm gonna buy it when it drops, because it drops to seven, I'm gonna get it. Um, but it's it's the art's good. Yeah, the story's okay. There are a lot of continuity issues I'm not liking, and I'm I'm kind of wondering, hey guys, why are you not doing you know your research? So yeah, um, so if I relate it back to my beach, my beach thing, um I went to the beach, I tripped and fell, and my mouth was open, and I have sand in my mouth, and unfortunately, I swallowed it. So that's kind of what I would review this book as. But it's definitely on. I definitely think if you're if you've been a Venom fan and you're not enjoying the book, which a lot of Venom fans are, I think this is kind of a closer symbiote book because I I want to know who Torment is. Yeah. He I like the way he looks. I think he does look cool. Um if it is Cassidy, then I think that's a cool way to bring him back. Um if it's someone new, I might be upset because I'm like, who's this guy? If it's Matt Gargan, I'm gonna flip the table. Um because we know just in time for brand new day!

SPEAKER_00 1:17:14

Oh my gosh, dude, it could! Oh, please, no. Oh, I forgot. Oh dude, they would do that. What's Tombstone? No, Tombstone's in the book.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:25

Yeah, he's a separate character. Tombstone's a separate character. He uh uh actually Tombstone is kind of mad that uh Torment killed Shocker because Shocker was one of his enforces. Yeah, so um, but um the dialogue in this in this story so far feels more Spider-Man y. It feels more adult. It doesn't feel like five-year-olds being like, you suck and you stink, and everybody's going, he stinks. That's what the Venom book has felt like. Um so this feels a lot better, and it feels a lot more like a Spider-Man story. So I'm I'm I'm will I'm gonna write it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:59

Hopefully, it this hasn't been the best we've gotten for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:02

Um, I'm not gonna say I'm I'm just I'm hoping it'll be good. If it's not, then I'm not gonna be surprised. But there is Spider-Man Venom Death Spiral. I think whenever we do, if we do, this is an every week book, so I definitely will be talking about it every week. If we skip next week, I'll definitely talk about two. I'm gonna try to cover it as like a one big story instead of like individual issues. Well, I did do individual issues.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:24

But you're getting us caught up.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

Yeah, I'm getting y'all caught up because uh definitely, you know, when the next few come out, there's gonna be a lot more going on. And hopefully we'll figure out who Torman is, because I think the next issue has a classified variant.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:36

You're technically a third of the way through already if it's not issues.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:39

Yeah, we're a third of the way through. So, you know, we got a lot more. But again, this this book definitely feels like that thing that Marvel's doing, which this will definitely be a good way to segue in our next final conversation that the audience probably has been waiting for if you've been listening this long. Um this definitely has that feeling of like, guys, we need to do a Venom event. We need to do an event with Spider-Man and Venom and Carnage, so let's get it going. Let's do this event. Because, you know, every Marvel book now feels like it's just a pro it's like the books can't be good, but we can prepare for the event because the event sells more copies. Um well, like it's it's at least it's not like a big crossover, it's just like I think there's like you know, the one and then it's back and forth, back and forth, and then there I think there might be a finale single issue. I don't know. So, but yeah, there's Death Spiral. Um in my notes we wrote Big Poo-poo. It's not Big Poo-poo, it's just it's it's it's you know, it's like it's like Mexican food. Like you know, you know, like it's it's like I enjoy this, but I feel like it's gonna affect me negatively later, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

Um but so maybe we'll get big poo-poo out of it.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:59

Uh so that's a good segue into a book that is kind of big poo-poo.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:03

Yes, it is a big poo-poo.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:05

Um, well, this is what uh as Paul said in the very beginning of the episode, this is our time that we're gonna talk about Ultimate Spider-Man, and honestly, we've never seen a book that is this split down the middle. And in fact, in the kind of the notes that I typed up for today for us to kind of talk about, we could we said it's the great divide.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:26

Yeah, it's the great divide because um the reason we decided to talk about this is we made a post about uh we made a post on Comment Nation 616, and a lot of people agreed with us. A lot of people was like, Yeah, I that's that's why I think the book fell flat. Because if you listen to our first episode, we didn't like then. I mean, we didn't we there are good parts of the book. There's good parts, but overall as a story, we didn't like it. We put it, we we was an off-the-pool list book for both of us. Yeah. Um and a lot of people, there were people who agreed with us, but then there are also people who disagreed with us, and we're like, this is the best book ever. I went up to Knoxville again to the comic book store that I go to up there, and there was a actually an argument in the store while I was there because one of the workers agreed with me and another worker didn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:07

And it it we I called you and I was like, we should really talk about this again because there's this, I've never seen a divide in a book like this before. There's never been such a book that's just like I you either really love it or you really hate it. Um I don't know. So so we we broke up some of the comments. We're gonna be reading some of your comments. Actually, real quick, we have a fan base. Yeah, we have people who listen to this, and thank you guys. We want to say thank you. Um, if you follow the account Comic Nation1776 on Instagram, it's only on Instagram, right? Only on Instagram, only on Instagram, and follow them, follow us, follow our show, keep listening. We really we're really glad to have an audience. This is really cool.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:48

This is awesome. We have like 200 comments alone on the post talking about this. And it's I mean, it's probably split 100 for and 100 against.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:57

Wow, really cool. Yeah, so we we really wanted to just kind of we wanted to take everybody's comments, good and bad, into consideration and and look at this and kind of you know, kind of maybe we want to talk about our opinions on it, but also read your comments. So, you know, if you don't like this book and you we disagree with you, no shame in that. Uh we just this would be just a really I think this is just something we should really cover because I'm so shocked at how divided this fan base is over this book.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:24

Um and we're gonna defend our argument a little bit because some people were like, oh you guys, you guys, you that your argument's not that good. And I'm like, okay, let's let's do it better then.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:32

You know, I got my I got my boxing gloves on, ding ding. You know, I'm ready to you know a few rounds, let's go.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:37

Put the suit on.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:41

Dude, that's a dude, that's a great reference. Dude, our brother over here, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:46

Heck yeah. Is that supposed to be a reference? Yeah, yeah. Okay, good, okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:54

So the first thing, first thing that is um kind of really the biggest comments that we're getting in favor of the book is that as one person said, this is still better than anything from the main continuity in the last five years.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Yeah, and I had actually uh this is the same thing that a guy at the store up in Knoxville told me. He said the same thing to me, and I was like, mm-mm, you know, maybe. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:18

So, so looking at the Spider-Man comics of the last five years, some people have said 10 years, 15 years, so the the the argument is still the same. At least it's not amazing Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:29

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:29

Just be thankful it's not amazing Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:31

Which I agree with.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:32

Yeah, because we both actually before we said started, um, we were talking about kind of some of the notes we have written, and we both agreed that, like, yeah, this is better than the amazing Spider-Man. I think this was better.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:41

And I'll concede on that for sure. Um, because as what some of this stuff is uh that we're gonna talk about today, it does give us what we want in a sense. It do gives us Mary Jane married to Peter Parker, gives us kids.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:57

An older Peter Parker.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:58

An older Peter Parker who's having to, in theory, wrestle with the things of adult life.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:05

Um, so it does kind of give us that. And those first couple issues were incredible. They were awesome, yeah. Um and there is good aspects about this book.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:14

Um, especially I think the the Sandman issue.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:18

The Sandman issue. I thought that was good. The Venom scene was awesome. Right. The um I think the final issue had some cool moments. I think the anti-venom symbiote things were really cool.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:28

Even the pregnancy when she told in the flashback in the final issue when she told Peter that's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:33

Oh, yeah, that they were pregnant, yeah, yeah. That was good. That was good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:36

So there is good aspects to this book. Yeah, yeah. Um and so I think we agree on that, that point. Yeah. Is that yeah, it's better than Amazing Spider-Man has been. Now, looking back, do I think it's better than Spider-Man and Life Story? No. No? Do I think it's better than Spider-Man 800? No. Nope. Um, I was even thinking about Spectacular Spider-Man by Chip Zadarsky. I still haven't read that.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:59

Okay. I still have it, but I I I have the trade. Because you bought me the trade, I'm pretty sure. Yep, I have it.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:04

Spectacular Spider-Man 310 is one of my is probably my favorite single issue comic book of all time. Wow. Um, but I'll save that conversation for why about time. But um, so of the last five, ten, to fifteen years, um I think to some points, yes. Um Main title, Amazing Spider-Man, it is better, but it is not better than some of those other ones that we mentioned.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:30

We're kind of going back to that statement of this is the best Spider-Man book that's dropped in in years. It's like I just like I don't know, life story was really good because it it just it was very consistent, and it was also cool to see like the entire yeah, it had it had a lot of time, but also you're kind of you're not this isn't a new story. This is kind of just everything, it's it is new, but it's like everything that's ever happened to Spider-Man kind of put in one life span. Um so it's okay to miss those those those jumps are kind of okay because you can fill in the gaps a little bit. Right, right. This, in my opinion, is not because you've got you've got like you're jumping from month to month and you're missing a lot of time. There's a lot of time between those months where stuff can happen, you know, where you see Peter, because one of something I really wish this book did that it doesn't do is like, yes, we do get them being married. And that and that's that's been I think the biggest argument of the book is that we finally got a book where they're married. Why are you not happy? Right. And it's like I'm not happy because I'm not getting to see them do it. Like, whoa, hang on. Hang on, hang on.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:40

Sorry, let me let me take a step back. That was that was not intentional. I want a book where I can see Spider-Man, get big pictures of Spider-Man and MJ doing it.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:53

I need Spider-Man rain.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:56

No, no, no, no, no. God, that probably just peaked the mic on that one.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:00

It did, it was strange.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:01

Oh no, it did.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:02

Oh no. Oh, step back. Sorry, I'm getting loud. Um when I when I mean sorry, what I meant to say was that um we don't get to see Spider-Man and MJ being a married couple. We don't get to see those moments that's like important because if you think anything Spider-Man, one of the things you think of is how he doesn't have a job. It's hard for him to keep up a job because he's being Spider-Man. And on top of that, like um, on top of that, he, you know, he can't keep up a job. He's he's got this responsibility of being Spider-Man, and a lot of his personal life things are just kind of thrown in the mud. Yeah. When you have a wife and a family and children, that's not an option. Right. You know, it's not an option to throw your life, you know, throw those segments of your life away to be Spider-Man. Right. And something I would have loved to seen in this book was I would love to see a moment of, you know, MJ pulling him to the side and saying, Hey, you know, I understand you have responsibilities as Spider Man. Man, I understand that those are like very important to you, but also when you're doing that, you're not making money, you're not working, you're not supporting our children. Like, and you have a responsibility as a father and as a husband to be here for us too. And that puts Spider-Man and Peter on this branching road that he's never I've never seen him on that road before. I've never seen that before. And it's like, what would Spider-Man do? Like, how would he react to that? Because, you know, I think like I don't know if this book, if Ultimate did it, did, did was he, how is he making money? Was he getting paid through Norman? I feel like he must have been mentioned briefly. But if that's the case, then that's such an easy out. It is the easiest way out. And it's just like I I want to I want that I don't know. I want to see that that that stress beyond him because I want to know how he's gonna react to that. And I want to know truly how his priorities are flowing now that he does have these family responsibilities are more than you know saving the city.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:02

Um, I want to see that, you know. I I want to see um him and MJ. Like, I want to see them just be a be a married couple and love stuff, stuff with like uh those first few issues with his daughter, yeah, those were amazing moments. Yeah, those moments were so good because it was like, you know, she was scared of the black suit, and they had this cute little thing on the roof where she's got like the little scarf on and the goggles, and and she's like looking at at Peter and and like they're trying to figure out what his costume should look like. And then they go swinging together. Like sneaking his daughter out to go swinging, you know what I mean? That's so cute. And like, but we got it at the beginning and then we never got it again. She she never shows up really. She's there, but yeah. She's there, but there's nothing yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:47

Um, yeah, that's that's that's the number one thing in in favor of this book.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:53

It's not at least it's not 616.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:56

So the next big thing that comes up, uh, do you want to talk about it or do you want me to keep going?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:01

Which one is it?

SPEAKER_06 1:30:01

The point two, the character development?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:04

Yes. I think well, you you know what? You take this one first. Okay, I think I can take this one first.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:08

So a couple of the comments argued that so what we said was there's so many panels, so many pages of just them talking. Yes. You know, lots of talking. Like, there's what, three issues where they go out to dinner with Harry and Gwen, and it's just talking. And nothing happens. Nope. They're they're literally just talking. Yep. And like, so life is kind of crazy, man. Oh yeah, life is really crazy, man. Oh, cool, dude. You know? It's like I'm watching Bill and Ted's wonderful adventure or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:44

I was gonna take a like Wayne's World. Yeah, Wayne's World or something. Right on, Garth. Yeah, but right.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:49

But nothing, nothing happens. And so one of the things that we said in the post was that there's just too much kind of talking.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:57

Yeah, there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:58

And people took that kind of in a different direction than what we meant.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:02

Um, so one comment says, I just don't trust people whose main problem with a comic is that they have to read. Stop measuring a good how good a book is by how many fights there are. Another person adds on, please do not criticize large amounts of text. There are many people who enjoy it in comics, and as it simply takes longer to read and therefore feels more satisfying. And my personal favorite comment. Um, I feel like looking at a comic book is about reading it, not just looking. You buy$200 shoes, you you're gonna wear them. That's my favorite comment.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:34

I have a I have a very expensive pair of the uh across the spider-verse Jordans. I've never worn those. I'm actually saving it for when Beyond comes out. Yeah. Beyond the Spider-Verse. Oh, where do you think that our name came from? Um yeah, I was saving it to wear it, but so yeah, just uh comment. I do like looking at motion. You might be wearing those when you're 80. Dude, I'll rock those as 80. I'll be like, yo, I'm cool. And all the little kids are like, uh Gramps, you're I don't know, what's you're raisined. You look old, you loser. Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:08

Um so so that's the point, but that's not what we were really saying. We're not saying we want fights, give us fights.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:16

We so absolute Batman has a lot of dialogue. Ark M had a lot of dialogue, and there's you're reading a journal engine.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:23

Yeah, Ark M didn't have a single action like fight scene, or like, you know, besides like her shooting her kids, you know, but that's like just a second.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:30

So it's not that we we just want action and we want no dialogue. Right. That's not the case. And so this is something that I really wanted to bring up with this point, and that is the fact of what is what does dialogue do? Now, Paul, you make movies uh and you made a fantastic movie called Fragments. Thank you. Uh you're welcome. I I I'm not just saying that because we're friends, but genuinely that is a great short film. Uh so if you haven't seen it, go to Fragments.fine Fragments, horror short film, it's on YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:58

My channel name is just my normal name, Paul Fine. Paul, I think Paul.fine, Paul Fine, I don't know. Uh but yeah, that give it a watch. I'd love to I'd love for people to check it out.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:07

Fantastic. So so my my question to you is is a simple one. When you're making a movie, what is the purpose of a scene?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:15

A purpose of a scene is in order to push the plot forward.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:19

So when we see an ultimate spiderman, we see these these moments of when they're at dinner, we should be moving the story along.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:27

We should either be advancing the plot in some way, yeah, or we should be revealing the character of who these are. We should, through these conversations, show that Peter Parker is a man with great power who has to juggle two responsibilities. Mary Jane is also a woman who has responsibilities.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:47

And how is she gonna step up in this moment? Yeah, Harry is who is he?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:53

Gwen, what's her motivation?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:56

We don't get any of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:58

We get we get a little bit of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:00

Like, you know, we get a little bit of like, you know, Gwen is very concerned with the Council of Mysterious, right? And um, but we don't ever see MJ. Like now that you mention that, I would love to see an MJ issue of just her. Like, like that would be a great break. Because issues, or at least with like movies or scenes, sometimes you need a break from the main story. And I think especi especially comic books, because comic books, you know, are like TV shows, right? Like they're gonna be longer than a film because they expand for a long time. It's okay to take a break from the main story. It's okay to show, like, hey, what does MJ do? Or like what's what's going on through her head while Spider-Man stuff's going on. You could see Spider-Man doing something in the background for a second, just to kind of see their worlds kind of intertwine a little bit. But um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:41

And and and the last thing a scene is to do either in a movie, a TV show, or even a comic book, is to create some kind of tension or some kind of conflict.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:50

And the only time I see any character reveal, I see any tension in this conversation in these moments where this conversation is the moment where Gwen and MJ go to the bathroom. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:04

And Gwen opens her mouth and MJ just decks her. Dexter. That was great. That was great. That was awesome. I'm so glad she did that because Gwen was kind of a jerk at these books.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:12

But that's the only time.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:14

Yeah. I think a lot of the issues, because you know, um, the original Ultimate Book did this really well. There were some issues in the original Ultimate book that weren't full of action. There's one, the one that I've referred to a lot is where Aunt May has a therapy session. She's talking about how she thinks Spider-Man is connected to her life, but she doesn't know how. Yeah. And she just feels like that she sees him and she hates seeing him because she thinks of like bad people and Ben and how Ben got killed. And, you know, like those were good issues. Um, you know, just because an issue like I don't want people to think that we're like, oh, these are bad issues because there's nothing happening. It's just a lot of the story that's not, there's there's not a lot of stuff going on. Right. Like, you know, there's not a lot of leading into into the next issue or into the next, you know, by what they're saying. It's just, it's, it's, it's just them talking.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:05

And it's just kind of an issue where uh and people, you know, because uh the guy that I ran into at the store, he mentioned, like, oh hey, like, you know, these are very intense issues. And if you think so, then great. But I me personally, I don't think they were. They felt very slow. It just felt like I was like wanting to get back to like the other story. Yeah. And you know, those moments, you should be invested in everything they're saying. Oh, sure. You should be locked in, you should feel the emotion that they're feeling. Yeah, but I just didn't. I remember when I actually read those issues, I was really bored when I read those. And I should I read them again? Probably. Um, but I just I just was very bored because I was just like, I I don't care. I want to know what I just want to get to the next thing. Yeah. Because in movies you have a lot of scenes. I'm trying to think, I'm trying to like think of a scene that would be really good to like, you know, um just um I you know I could think I I think of one kind of off the top of my head a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:02

And I I think of Transformers, ironically. So maybe a good example from the first Transformers film is when Bumblebee is captured and he's in the Hoover Dam and they finally have the glasses. Optimus and the Autobots have the glasses, but Bumblebee had to get captured first. And you see over here Bumblebee's captured, but then the Autobots have this moment of conversation, yeah. And and I think it's Ironhide who says something basically like, Why don't we go in there and just rescue Bumblebee right now? And and they have that moment. And Optimus says Bumblebee basically made his sacrifice so that we could do what we need to do to find the All Spark. Um and they have that conversation, and that's it's a brief scene compared to everything, but that moment is building tension, it's building conflict, it's revealing the Autobots' character. Um that's just one that kind of pops into my head. Maybe it's not like the greatest example, but it's just one that kind of pops in my head as you were talking. Yeah. Um or scene in the recent Superman movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:06

Superman flies in, he talks to Lois, and you know, he I I started to watch Superman. I didn't finish this. I was I was watching it while I was on my cruise, and like I started watching it, but then we had to go out to go do stuff. But I I was I was invested. Yeah, I was invested. I need to finish it. I need to finish it before I fully judge it, but I need to finish it.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:21

Yeah, so there's there's a scene where it's like But I did see that scene.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:23

That was a good that was like the last scene that I watched. And that wasn't yeah, that scene had a lot of purpose. Yeah, and you're you're you're interested in it. Like you should be interested in those scenes. Right. Like you should be listening and you should you like you feel the tension, you feel the emotion. I mean, um man, I I've got so many scenes in my head. I just I guess I'm on the spot, so now I can't think of anything. But like, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:43

Yeah, so so there's that, and and I think that's another one of those things that that we wanted to address here. Uh, but I'm gonna jump to the next point. Uh, because we've kind of already addressed it, but I'm gonna bring it up anyways. Yeah, and that's just the the people. Uh somebody said we've got everything we've been begging for for Spider-Man Comet for years, and guys on the internet are still mad about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:05

So this goes back to what we were talking about in point one.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:08

We we got what we wanted. And you have a great analogy for this. Yeah. About wanting water.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:13

It was, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like, I want, I don't know which one was because I made two separate analogies, but I it's like, it's like, hey, can I have a glass of water and someone brings you pond water?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:23

It's like, it's still water, but it's like, well, it's but it's not the water I want. Yeah. Well, it's still water, so you should still drink it. It's like, well, no. I don't know. It's it's the it's the premise. I think I thought your reference was better.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:38

You want super you want Superman to have so let's say you want Superman to have kids, right? Uh you want him to be a father. Well, if he adopts Martians as his kids, well Yeah, I mean he's getting to have kids. But is it like the kind of kids you wanted to see him have? Yeah. Like, is it is it the story that you really wanted to hear all along? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:01

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:02

It's like, it's like, um, well shoot, it's like uh I don't I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:08

So that's just one of the points. But the next point I I actually think we agree with. And that's that Marvel sabotaged this book.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:15

I completely think that that's why we agree we agree. Yeah, we agree. I think a lot of people also think the same thing because Marvel, as I as I mentioned in Death Spiral, the Spider-Man offices at Marvel are really bad. They've they've always had a history. If you listen to any Todd McFarlane documentary, there's a couple out there that are really good. I think you should check them out if you like Todd McFarlane. Um, or if you like Spawn. Yeah. Um, but he also mentions that like when he wanted to hop on Spider-Man, everyone told him to stay away from the Spider-Man office because it was always a mess. And they didn't even like his changes. You know, he brought his amazing Spider-Man changes. Oh, I didn't mean to do that fun. Um he brought his changes in and they didn't like it. The Spider-Man office has always been a rough office. Right. Now I don't know if the Ultimate Office had its own thing because it was every I don't know, but like this book, it it does feel rushed. And I I'm not blaming, like, I I want to say this as loud and clear as possible. I'm not blaming Jonathan Hickman. Or Marco Shadow. Yeah, I'm not talking about it. I don't think this was them, like this. I don't think this was their writing. I don't think this was their plan. Yeah, this was their writing in terms of what Marvel wanted.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:23

So Marvel would say, like, hey, well, we we want this, and he they're like, Okay, well we have to cut this out, or we have to do this, or we'll well let's get into this. And they were choosing what they felt were the most important things to kind of tell.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:34

Um, and I think that was them. I again, I'm not blaming them for this book. I don't think that it was their fault, but definitely Marvel editorial team and their consistent pursuit of events is what killed this book. Yes. Because it was very clear that this was their new ultimate universe, they brought it back. Um, if you read Donnie Cate's Venom Run, that was what that book was actually teasing at points was the maker was going back to the ultimate universe, and Donnie Cates was supposed to have the ultimate ultimate books. Um, but it was very clear that about halfway through this event, Marvel was like, well, I think we should end this book to make an event out of it.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:11

Yes, i.e.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:12

Ultimate Endgame. Um, and we can make an event out of it, sell that event, because everyone's gonna buy the event, because now all the people who are like, like, I'm not gonna buy Ultimate Wolverine or Ultimate Avengers or whatever. I'm gonna buy Ultimate Spider-Man and that's it. Yeah, but they need all of those people who are buying all those separate books to buy that one book because that's what the statistics, that's what makes statistics look good. That's like a company thing. A lot of movie companies do that. Um, like Sony did it with Venom and Craven and all their movies. Um, you know, like so that's where my mind is, especially you know, doing movies and stuff, I can I think about that stuff a little bit easier, and I can see it pretty clearly whenever I like. I'm like, oh, I see what they're doing. Um, and I think that that definitely is what hurt this book because Jonathan Hickman probably was gonna probably probably didn't have an end number. No, probably not. You know, he didn't have an end number, he was just gonna write this out, and you know, it got to the point where he was setting up those things and he was building up those moments, but then you know, was trying to figure out how to end and what to tell. And who knows if Marvel was also saying, Oh, you should do this, you should change this, or well, I'd like to see Gwen as Mysterio more, you know, and you know, they're not reading the book anyway, they just put the money in their pocket. So I I think that that's the big thing is Marvel definitely sabotage this book to make an event out of it. And if you already, if you're not keeping up with things, the the event's gonna like they're gonna bring the ultimate universe back, they're already talking about bringing it back.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:34

Isn't there didn't they announce recently that they're gonna do a like an ultimate farewell um like one-shot issue of like where everybody gets to kind of wrap up their book?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:45

Um, and I think Ultimate Spider-Man got one. It's not out yet, it's gonna be a little longer.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:50

Maybe I think so, and then and then you know, ultimate end game will end, and then they're just gonna bring it all back. And it it and that's so awful because it's like an event is only good when you build up to it, right? Like with uh I'm gonna reference Donnie Kate's Venom again, King in Black. That book, that event was built up for a long time. Right. You know, absolute Batman building up the Joker fight. Yeah, like you've got to build up to it because then it it then its presence is big enough to be like, yeah, this can take place in all the books. So this could be a big enough thing. But the maker just wasn't. It wasn't it like you know, he was a tree or something, and it like or whatever in the fight. Yeah, I don't know. It's just but it just it I don't know. It just it it marvel completely sabotage this book just for the sake of making an event to sell more books.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:39

Right. So we agree with that point.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:40

I agree, right? Yeah, I think that's yeah, and I think a lot of people hopefully because again, the goal with all this is that we can all kind of come to an agreement of like, oh yeah, okay, I see you see our point of view, and we see your point of views, because I understand if you if you like this and this is your thing, you should buy the trades, you should support the book, go for it. But this is just what we feel, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:01

Right, so uh another comment to get to is that um in the post we said that the emotional stakes were were pretty low.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:08

Yeah, they were very low.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:09

The the stakes at all were kind of low. Yeah. And and so they're saying that the last time that the issue was really great was um was issue twelve, it was a Christmas issue, and yeah, that's a good issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:24

And that was it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:26

Um but after that there's really no emotional stakes because that one ends with Peter when he has the black eyes.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:34

Yeah, that's when because Peter doesn't talk the entire issue. Right. Yeah, he's he's gone because he's been kidnapped and you don't know it. Um he's been kidnapped by Craven and Mole Man.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:43

And at the end, he the symbiote is pretending to be Peter while he's away. Right. Which was cool. That was really cool.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:49

That that had some stakes.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:50

It did have some stakes.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:51

But and and then like Harry dying, um, and then coming back, Gwen died and came back.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:57

Like nobody stays dead.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:59

Because honestly, with the symbiote doing that, I was hoping it was gonna be uh like a oh crap, this thing is starting to do stuff on its own. Like it's not supposed to do that. But then it turned out it was supposed to do that, and that was like a pro I don't know. It it's it made you expect things that didn't happen. That didn't happen. Yeah, it's like, oh crap, like that's not good. You know, like you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:18

Um so the next thing is actually that the supporting cast actually helped the book. Because we made the comment in the podcast last podcast that we're reading Ultimate Uncle Ben or Ultimate. Yeah, Ultimate Gwen Stacy, yeah. And people said, no, the supporting cast uh is there because you don't care about Spider-Man without a supporting cast. In fact, the comments say without Peter, none of the other characters matter. Their importance revolves around their proximity to Peter Parker. Even if you don't agree, without Spidey, nobody reads the book. Look at M. J. Venom book. This book has been the best ultimate book. Why? Because we love Spidey, and he shines when you care about his supporting cast, which this book does exceptionally well. Like I said, I can't believe you don't see it this way. Look at this from the lens of the book showcasing what the 616 universe could be, and you might see it in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:07

Now, and like I think that's a good point, because of course you can't spy without a supporting cast. Right, right. But this book, it focuses on them more than Peter. Like, you know, he's exactly like your supporting cast is supposed to kind of help lift your main character up, and and this book doesn't feel like it's doing that. Yeah. We're seeing all like, you know, and I and you also you get interested in these characters. Like, I think if this book would have gone on, I think at some point I I would want to see an MJ issue. I'd want to see an issue of Gwen being in the Mysterios, I'd want to see all those things build up, but we're not, you know, we're not seeing that because, you know, well, we're not seeing Peter. You know, we're seeing that, and that's all we're getting. And it's kind of one of your things where it's like uh another analogy, it's like you're waiting for your main dish, but you're getting all these side dishes. Yeah. It's like, I'm, oh yeah, this is all great, but when's my steak coming? Like, I want my steak, you know. Like, this is just it it's we're not seeing Peter. And and like it's hard to be excited for a Spider-Man book when you're just getting everybody but Spider-Man. Yeah. Like Spider-Man feels like a side character. Because when you start reading closer to the end of the book, you get less and less and less of him. And then you'll get like a bit a little bit more. But it's it's just not when you've read like if if you love this book, if you let I I I really want to push this on you guys. If you guys love this book, please read the original Ultimate Spider-Man. Like, please read it. It's so good, it builds up everything so well. And like, if like just because if I'm I'm assuming maybe people haven't read the original, um just because it's old, but it's I think it's very easy to get a hold of. They they're everywhere. You can get the the big trades. Um, but if you have read it and you know this is just your opinion, that's great. I'm just saying that like that that that's what I'm comparing this book to. It's like, well, this book didn't do it as good as this book did. Like this book was just perfect. And then this one, it's like, uh, you know, I don't know. It's just yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:54

No, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:55

Yeah. Um because I do I think Ultimate Spider-Man is the best, like the original Ultimate Spider-Man is the best Spider-Man book to have released in the last like 20 years.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:04

I would I would argue that the original Ultimate Spider-Man is the best Spider-Man story possibly ever written.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:10

I agree. I completely agree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:12

I would even place it in the top five best comic books ever written.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:15

It's in the top three of my best comic books. It's if if I if anyone's like, hey, what's a good comic to read? I always recommend the Ultimate Spider-Man just like I've I recommended your wife. I'm still waiting for her to read it. Gabriella, I need you to read that.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:26

Please. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:28

Um Heart emoji. So keep going. Uh people said basically that Peter deserves a break from the Parker luck stuff that we just keep seeing in Amazing Spider Man. So we're kind of summing that one up. Um what are your thoughts on that? Does does Peter I don't feel like we complained necessarily about that, oh well man, Peter he's not experiencing Parker luck in this one. Um we didn't really necessarily complain about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:00

I think I think instead of like 'cause Parker luck is more of the I think you have to have a little bit of it. Yeah. I think there's definitely like a little bit of like, oh, I was late to work and, you know, like, oh, this ain't good. You know, like but I think I think it's those little Parker luck things in this book, because it it won't do it in it doesn't do this in other books, because he doesn't have like kids and stuff. I think those little Parker luck things are are stepping stones to a big climactic, like, you have to make this choice. Yes. Because you're you're you're screwing up all like you can't Parker luck don't work when you're an adult. No. Like you gotta, you gotta, you have to stop and and start to say, like, okay, I have to make a choice. And and I want to see Peter make that choice. Like I want to see, again, like I mentioned before, I want to see Peter choose between Spider-Man and his family.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:44

You know, and what like I'm probably I don't I don't know, I I don't know what he would choose. I'd assume his family.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:49

You're right.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:50

But like I I just like you know, there's still a bit that's like, what if he he's gotta go?

SPEAKER_06 1:50:54

What if he picks Spider-Man and like what does that look like for his marriage? What does that look like for his kids? Yeah, he misses out on on let's say ball games, he misses out on and what if he chooses to be a father and then something bad happens, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:51:06

Because he wasn't there, right? You know, and I and and like Harry being involved was good because they were working together and it allowed for like, hey, I got this, you do your thing. Yeah, and we actually saw that a couple times in the book. There were some moments of like, hey Peter, I've got this, and you would see Green Goblin do things, and you wouldn't see Peter, you know, uh, which is kind of going back to that thing of like we didn't see Peter, you know. Yeah, yeah. Um, but um, I don't know, what do you think about it?

SPEAKER_06 1:51:30

I I I think I think you do need a little bit. I think I think well, as an adult, not everything goes right in your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:36

Right, no, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:37

Uh we both know that.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:39

You have um and you you run into bumps in the road, and it's to quote Superman, it's your choices, your actions who make you who you are. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh love that movie. Um well, I okay, sorry, keep going. No, I was saying so so that shows character development for Peter. Again, going back to what I was saying earlier, every scene should either show you the character, should further the plot, or build tension.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:06

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:07

Um, you can take breaks, like you mentioned. Yeah. Um, but every scene should do that. And I feel like that lacked majorly in this series.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:16

Yeah, and even like in like some of those conversation pieces have to build up, and you have to see it, you have to see it build up over here. Yeah. Because that gives you insight on what your character's about to deal with. Right. Right? Like, you know, you seeing like like Doc Ock and Aunt May getting married is gonna make you say, well, what's oh, what's that gonna do to Peter? Right? Like in the old that's not this didn't happen. That didn't happen in this book. But like you you mentioned um, you know, like that saying Superman, and it reminded me of the issue of Spider-Man Live story where Captain America and Spider-Man are talking about going to Vietnam and Spider-Man says, like, you know, Cap's like, I know you're gonna make the right decision. And Peter's like, I don't, I don't know what to do. You know, like that those it's those, because even like in that situation, because you know, that story takes place in that time period, and like all the superheroes are being drafted for the war, and some were going and some weren't, and it and Peter was like, I don't know what to do. Like, do I go to fight for for you know this war to save these people, or do I stay here? Right and and do and help here. And like it's those, like I think that that is an equal stake to like Peter trying to choose between his family and and whatever. Right. Like, I think something like that. And when we saw that, that was that I remember I was like, oh my gosh, like I don't know what I would do in this moment. Like, what do you what do you do? Right. And that's that's super relatable because you know, again, you want you look at Peter as a relatable character. Everybody looks at Spider-Man as a relatable character. And I think that right there is that's your biggest relatable moment. It's like, what would I do in that situation? You know, because like you have two separate responsibilities that you feel are equally equal, but you gotta pick one. Right, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:50

That's and one of those comments that was left said, uh, what would you do if your kids were in mortal danger? And uh would you just basically leave them to die? And and you know, obviously the question is no, but that tension is not built up in this issue or this series. Uh, because as we talked about earlier, um, just you and me before we started recording, there's never a moment where Richard is ever in truly danger, other than the one issue where he venoms out.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:21

Um, and then what did his parents react to that?

SPEAKER_02 1:54:23

They're just like, oh, you're grounded.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:25

Oh, you're grounded.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:25

We heard you did this thing. That's horrible. Yeah. Bad, bad, bad. There was no like, like, because with something like that, especially like venom venoming out and killing people. Yeah. Which I'm assuming he killed people. Yeah, that's what it looks like. Like, that's not a that's not a you're grounded. That's a hey, we need to talk about this. Like, this is serious. Like, this ain't this ain't what we do. Like, this is bigger than grounding. Like, because grounding ain't gonna teach that lesson. You know, and like um, yeah, it yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:53

So yeah. So so moving on, um, one of the people said that they actually liked the month-to-month um jump. They said that that they they felt like it um it was kind of like watching a TV show.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:08

Um and we really didn't we don't really agree on that. It says uh that it was a feature of the universe. Like that's um how the universe, the ultimate universe was originally structured uh to tell a narrative in two years, and that's the goal.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:24

And they said, well, that's the purpose, and and and by not doing so, you're missing out.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:30

I don't think so because I feel like it still feels like check-ins. Because life doesn't happen in one day per month.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:37

No. Um, and you're and you and especially like a story like this, you're missing so much. You're missing so much. Yeah, and we one of the one of the things I compared this to was if you've ever seen Spectacular Spider-Man, that's one of my favorite Spider-Man animated series. That's that's in my opinion, the best. I think it tops the 90s cartoon. Yeah. Even though the 90s cartoon has a very special place in my mind. It does top it. This one, story-wise, was really good. And it it took place like it, you could like it was what? It was, I think it's like 12 issues between or I don't know, it's probably like 15, yeah, fifth issues, 15 episodes between like the beginning of the year or like uh no, because it's the end of summer is when it first starts, all the way up to like Christmas. Yeah, right. So, but like you don't have to be like, oh, it's February now. You you there there's context clues, you know. Obviously, you have your environment and you've got it snowing or or the leaves being brown or whatever. Right, right. Right? And um, heck, I mean, in Spectacular Spider-Man, like you knew it was Thanksgiving because Spider-Man and Venom fight in the Thanksgiving Day parade. You know, like it and and because it didn't hit me till I was older and I would pay attention to those little things. It's like, oh, I can see what time of year it is just by the what's going on in the story. But they still side pieces. That story in a very fluid way. Exactly. And I think a month is too, there's too much time between a month to skip on. Right. Because especially when he's just now being Spider-Man, you want to see that every step of the way. You don't want to jump out for a month. Now, if he's been like Spider-Man now, right? If you read 616 Spider-Man, if a month passes, he's you could probably assume what he's done.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:09

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:10

In a book like this where he's new and he's still figuring it out and he's still trying to like figure out how to be Spider-Man and he's he's trying to also, you know, during different times of the year or whatever, like you want to stick there because he's still new. He's a baby at it, and you want to you want to follow him the whole way. Skipping, skipping just it we're skipping major plot points. We're skipping, you know, him learning lessons, him learning how to be Spider-Man. You're you're skipping maybe strategic things that he's figuring out or how to swing better. You know, you're you're because it's because you know eventually he he doesn't have the suit, the black suit that makes him stronger. So you like I don't think we ever really saw him think so try to like because you know that was the first introduction he had. So like this is something that uh Miles, when Miles became Spider-Man, he was like, God, swinging's hard. Yeah, you know, and it just he sucked at it at first, and like that that builds character development, you know. Yeah, and that month to month is just you're missing that. Now, again, if this book would have sh would have gone longer and longer and longer, and then you'd have done that, because I feel like Ultimate kind of maybe no, I don't know if they really the original Ultimate did that.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:14

I don't I mean uh maybe a little bit when he's first kind of started out.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:18

There was some there was probably some time skips, but for the most part, like um I feel like if they wanted to do the year or month the month cut time skip, you needed it the the world. You need yeah, you need to flourish the world a little bit more, and then you can make those assumptions later. Right. But until that the world is completely built, you do you shouldn't do that because you're you're you're skipping major steps in your world building process. Right. Exactly. Enough said.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:43

Alright, Stanley. So so we also said that Mary Jane and May were sidelined.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:50

And they said no, it was she was far from sidelined. She actually helped them making the decisions. Yes. My question is, what decision?

SPEAKER_01 1:58:58

Yeah, what decisions? Um, because they're they're yeah. Well, May was dead.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:05

So May was no May's the daughter.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:07

My bad. Sorry, I was taking Aunt May. I was like, wait, May Aunt May's dead. But yeah, like they they there are moments where they did, yeah, but they didn't last long. No, you know, like May being involved in Peter's costume choice and his his costume design is a great moment. Yeah, and that's a p pivotal important moment. But that we only got it once. Just just because I think like I think this is a good way to also look at it. Just because it happens once in a book doesn't mean we got it. You know what I mean? Like, especially something like this where we're everybody's wanting family, everybody's wanting his family to be built together. Everybody's wanting, you know, like everybody's wanting to see Peter in those moments. Like, just because we get it, a one and done. This ain't these aren't one and done scenarios, right? Like getting the black suit, everybody wants to see Spider-Man get the black suit. And that is kind of a one and done, or a couple, yeah, you know, like a couple minutes and then done thing. Right. But like this isn't, like, this is a consistent thing that must stay. Right. It must be introduced and it must stay. And it and you can't just get rid of it. Like MJ being worried for Peter and MJ, you know, like being a wife to him and and you know, like helping him out, but also him kind of being a good husband at times when you like that, like we want those shocking moments of like, oh, he's been out fighting all day. He's not been helping, but man, he came home and he brought toys for the kids and he brought food or takeout. You know what I mean? Little stuff like that. Like, what do you think about that? I don't know. It's like you you agreed with me. We agreed on that, didn't you?

SPEAKER_06 2:00:30

Yeah, yeah, we agreed on that. Um, yeah, no, I I mean you you don't get those moments, and I I I think that would have been a very sweet moment to see, well, Peter's been out all day. You know, you see the one moment where she's she kind of throws around divorce.

unknown 2:00:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:47

But then she's like, oh well, I love you, and everything's okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:50

Well, okay. Um I'll ride then. You know, uh and and so also you you don't see Mary Jane make any decisions.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:00

Yeah, I don't recall any I don't recall her making any decisions. There's there's nothing. She punched Gwen, which was a decision.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:07

Like everything else is kinda, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:09

Wanted to invite Otto to Thanksgiving dinner in like issue twenty-three or twenty-four.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:14

Because he's Spider-Man all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:16

Um yeah, so what decisions are you are are you kind of talking about there? Like I hey, I'm all for uh I'm I'm right there with you. Yeah. If you enjoy this book, go enjoy it. Don't listen to us. Yeah. Take and kids. We'd ask you to take it.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:30

Our opinions aren't that bad. We just we got we just talking in microphones, you know.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:33

We're just yeah, we're just two dudes who like comic books and we're just sharing our opinions. I just want to see Peter and MJ do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:42

And I I can I think we all want that, you know, because we're still fighting for it. And Marvel Editorial won't give it to us. And we're off the air. And we're gonna be able to do it. We're canceled. It's over.

SPEAKER_06 2:01:57

Uh the last thing uh I wanted to bring up um uh is I I want to ask you the question. Okay, and then this is something we can kind of wrap up on. Okay. Basically, the argument for Ultimate Spider-Man, most people will agree with this. They believe that the run was too short. They believe that the pacing was weird, uh they believe that the book had great ideas, but the execution might have been uneven. Um and ultimately we agree that it's still better than modern Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:27

There's a few other things here, the dialogue, stuff like that, that we disagree on. But basically, this this all sums up into well, it's better than being bad. So the question I want to ask you is does being better than bad automatically make something great?

SPEAKER_01 2:02:43

No, I don't think so. Because I I think it's also a a symptom of like all of us fans have really wanted this for a long time, you know? Yeah. We've all wanted Peter to be married. We've all wanted, and when this book got announced, I was pumped. Like we were all excited because it's like we're finally getting the book we've been wanting. We're finally getting, you know, and and editorial can do their stupid book that nobody wants, they can keep doing it, but we're gonna get our book and we're gonna read it and we're gonna enjoy it, and it's gonna be awesome. And it was. And I think like I think it's a thing of like you want it to be good so bad. You wanna like it because that's how I was with like the Venom movies, right? Especially Venom Let There Be Carnage. When that movie came out, I wanted it to be good so bad that I convinced myself that it was great. Right. Like the the first, the first, like when people when I went seen it, and you know, other people were like, Oh, how was the movie? I was like, that was it was so good, it was so awesome. But like looking back, I'm like, it wasn't, and I just I wanted it to be so bad. And I think that's what a lot of people are dealing with. This book is that it we're getting an older Peter, we're getting Spider-Man with kids, and Mary Jane, and they're married, and we all want that, and we're begging for it. But just because they gave it to us and just because it's there, doesn't mean it's what we want because they didn't give us the they didn't give us all of it, right? You know, um, you know, you you gotta have build up and emotion and story there. You can't just have that circumstance there, and it's like, oh, this is great, because we got the circumstance. Again, this ain't this ain't just the black suit, right? Like a you know, this ain't a one-and-done thing. You gotta, you gotta have it stick around. And and we all we want it there, and we got what we wanted, but we didn't fully get what we want. And we we want this to kind of keep building and we want it to you know to grow and to get it throughout the whole story because that is what like us as adults, like you know, we're both getting older. Heck, you're about to have a child. Yeah. I know the thing you probably want to read more is how does Spider-Man deal with having kids? Right, right. You know, like and you know, like getting married, like you got married. How does Spider-Man deal? Like, how does he deal with those things? Because we're growing up and he he was that for us in high school. Well, how does he deal with getting bullied? Well, how does he deal with this? Well, how does he deal with that? How does he do deal with getting his homework turned in and trying not to be late? You know, and also taking down the lizard, you know, like how does he how does he do all that? But now we're at we're all at this age where we want to see Spider-Man as an adult doing these adult things, and we're not full, I don't think we're fully getting it. I'm not fully getting it. And and you know, you agree. I don't know. I I I don't think that makes the book good. I think this is an okay book. I think it's got good moments. There are moments I really like, but unfortunately, the whole thing summed up in one big package is just not what we wanted. And and and I'm really shocked at how the fan, and you know, if the the fan there's some fans that say this is exactly what we want. This is the best book to ever be out, this is the best Spider-Man book to ever release. And if you if that scratches your itch, then great. But for me personally, it doesn't because it doesn't hit those things that I'm looking for in a Spider-Man book, you know. Like I I I would love to read about Gwen being Mysterio, and that sounds really cool, but I would prefer to have Spider-Man changing his kid's diaper and trying to save the city. Yeah, I'd rather read that a little bit more than this because I want to see what that looks like. Right, right. That's my opinion on it.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:06

No, I I agree. I'm absolutely there with you. Um, and because you hit on something there. When you and I read Ultimate Spider-Man, we were probably getting bullied. That's when I read it. Yeah. When I discovered comics, and I remember reading Ultimate Spider-Man and being like, this is me. Yeah, that's me the same way, yeah. And so now, as a fully grown adult, um again married, about to have kids, I want to be able to read a character again. The only character who's been married and has had kids is Superman. And Superman's been around for almost 90 years, yeah. Um almost a hundred years, yeah. And um you know, and it took him forever to get married and finally have kids. And that's what fans want. And that's what we love. But Spider-Man is meant to be the relatable character. Superman is relatable if done right. But it's Spider-Man that so many people relate with, so many people connect to. Arguably, Spider-Man is more popular than Superman.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:17

I don't agree, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:18

Uh, and whether that makes me happy or not, I don't know. But those people who grew up reading Ultimate Spider-Man, they want to see an adult Spider-Man with kids. I would say, like, I would love to see Brian Michael Bendis return.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:34

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:35

And write I guess.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:39

Is he back with Marvel?

SPEAKER_06 2:07:40

I don't feel like so.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:41

Okay. I feel like I thought he he came back to write something.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:45

He might have done he might have done a story in the Spider-Man Superman book that's coming out.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:49

Maybe. Maybe that would have been what it is.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:52

But um no, I I I 100% agree with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:57

Um so, before we wrap up, there's our opinion on Ultimate Spirals.

SPEAKER_06 2:08:04

We are not talking about this book.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:05

Yeah, this book is gone. We're leaving it in the past. If they relaunch it, if I don't know, we might, yeah, we might.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:15

Read it now!

SPEAKER_05 2:08:16

Read it now! Let's do it now.

SPEAKER_06 2:08:18

We were wrong, we were wrong. We were wrong, we were wrong. Um, but we'll continue to talk about Absolute Batman and some of those other series. I feel like Absolute Batman will be now our our main meaning too.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:28

Yeah, I think Absolute Batman's gonna be the big, the big one um because it's still coming out. It it it's it's really schedules weird. It's like it's like one issue and then like two is two weeks later, another issue, and then like a month.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:41

Yeah, it's weird. But it's like it's I'm it's it's acts. Yeah, you know, as long as it's good, that's all I care about, you know, because the good books are few and far between. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:08:51

It's true. All right.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:52

Everybody, thank you so much for listening. I'm one of your hosts, Paul Fine. I'm Clayton. And this has been the Beyond the Pools Podcast. Thanks for listening. Thank you for listening.