Paul's Opinion on Venom Finally Unleashed!

Welcome back to Beyond the Pull List, Paul's view on Venom has finally been unchained, and he rips into Al Ewing and Marvel Editorial. Following this, Clayton gives us a fresh review of Transformers issue 31, and Paul reviews the second half of Spider-Man/Venom: Death Spiral! Finally wrapping up with a review of episodes 5 and 6 of INVINCIBLE! Sit down, have your collection ready, as we go Beyond the Pull List!

Transcript

Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hello, everybody. My name is Paul. And you're listening to the Beyond the Poolist podcast. Hello, everybody. Episode four. We're four. And hey, you remember last week when I was like, hey, we we we're borrowing some gear. Like, we will probably not sound good by the next episode. We got our own. We bought it all. So we got everything we need. We've got fancy arms, which I've actually never had before. Um we've got um we've got all kinds of cool stuff. And we've got our Zoom recorder, and we've got headphones, and we got XR cables, we've got all the nerdy stuff.

SPEAKER_05 0:39

It's like a little studio in here now.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

We literally have our own little studio in my living room.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

Yeah, yeah. So thank you for providing all this.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Thank you for pitching in and helping us get this awesome gear. So now we sound like like we're a real podcast. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like we had those two episodes that's like clearly recorded. Right. Watch us be up on the backup, like watch something fail, and we're on the backup.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

Speaking of that, maybe we should get the backup up and go.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

You want to start over just in case? We're fine, we're good, we're good. We don't need it. Yeah, we have we have a backup of recorder just in case. So again, if it sounds uh good, that means our equipment worked. If it does not sound good, then we're on backup. So um, yeah, but but yeah, welcome back to the Beyond the Pool list. We had a we've had what two weeks since we last busted? Um, we've had a lot of stuff happen. We actually do you want to talk about the thing that you that happened on a call yesterday while we were on the phone? On the call? Yeah, we were on the phone and you were like, Paul, someone followed us.

SPEAKER_05 1:37

Oh, we had uh Carrie Andrews follow us. Yes, we did.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Yes, if you don't know what he did, he did uh Spider-Man Rain. Um, and he's done he did Spider-Man Reign 2, which I thought was probably the best comic book to come out before I started reading Absolute Batman. Really? Genuinely. I thought it was a very great sequel to the first one. Um I'm trying to think what else he's done. He did the Spider-Man, he did the art for Spider-Man and Wolverine. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

Yes, he's done uh what was it like an amazing fantasy reboot a few years ago? They did like one issue. Captain America was like stranded on an island or something.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

Uh he did a Superman Spider-Man crossover for the last crossover. Did he? He did a cover for it. Not an interior art, but he did a cover. It's really cool. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

I don't know, I don't know if I've seen that. Really?

SPEAKER_05 2:18

I'll have to show you after.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

I'll have to look at that. But yeah, but he followed us. So that's awesome. Super cool. Um, but uh, but yeah, we've we uh we've got some stuff to get into this week. We've definitely got some books. Um today you're gonna be hearing something that I'm very excited to finally be able to talk about. Um we're gonna get into again, we're gonna get all our books, and then finally, uh we're gonna hit our uh review, our invincible review uh is coming later at the end of the episode. So stick around if you want to hear that. We're reviewing this week's episode, which is episode seven.

SPEAKER_05 2:52

I think episode six.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

So we're doing episodes five and six, which man, get your spaghetti ready because we're gonna be talking about that for a minute.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

So we are also going to address Al Youing comments. Yes. Because yesterday we posted on the Instagram account, if you don't follow us, Comic Nation1776. Be sure to follow, like, comment, and all that jazz. And if you go on there, we made a post yesterday titled Al Youing Why Are Fans Split. And we wanted to really have a conversation today because it's gonna tie into a lot of the stuff we're talking about. Yes. And uh, so we're gonna address those comments. Is he a good rider? Is he a bad writer? We're gonna be respectful, of course. Right, right, right. But uh, we just really want to talk about stuff.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

I'm gonna try my very best to be respectful. I if if you don't know, I have been very mad at Al Ewing for a very long time.

SPEAKER_05 3:45

I think there's at least two episodes that we have where you We definitely talked about it.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

I know it's it's and I've had to like I've had to like really reel it in, be like, okay, Paul, cool it off, pull it back. Um, but today I talked to Clayton and I was like, we have to talk about this. Like, I I don't think we can ignore this anymore. Like it's time we we've got a lot of stuff happening with Death Spiral. Um, and then of course, which that kind of just gets into Venom as a whole because that's the main thing with him going on right now. And also want to talk about the future of that book um with Queen in Black and what they're doing with it that I'm not super stoked about. So we'll uh we'll get into that.

Transformers #31 Review

SPEAKER_05 4:21

We'll get in on all that. But first, it's been a month since we kind of talked about the last things that we talked about, and so this week. We now return to the Transformers. As you can tell, we're gonna talk about Transformers. I'm gonna talk about Transformers because you're not reading it yet.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

I'm still not reading it.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

It is my goal now for the next couple episodes to convince you to finally read Transformers.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Well, you already told me that Clayton Crane did some variants for it, so I think I might have to look into because I love Clayton Crane's work, which we'll actually we'll talk about that. We'll actually talk about that.

SPEAKER_05 4:50

We've got Clayton Crane over here.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Yeah, we've got Clayton Crane's art on the table.

SPEAKER_05 4:53

Yeah, not Clayton Crane physically.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Hey Clayton, welcome to the Both the Claytons that exist are here.

SPEAKER_05 4:59

The only two! The only two We're continuing that bit forever.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

We should.

SPEAKER_05 5:04

But, anyways, uh we're gonna talk about Transformers 31 came out today because we're recording Wednesday, and I want to talk about a little bit about what's going on, and we'll we'll just let's just jump into it. So, Transformers 31 came out today, and I titled it The Trial of Megatron. Because if you remember, last time we talked about Transformers, we talked about Transformers 30, and Alita receives the Matrix of Leadership. Yeah, and she becomes Alita Prime. So this week we're focusing on a different matrix, which I didn't even know was a thing. Now, to be fair, I've not really read Transformer comics before, so this is kind of new to me.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

And this is the Robert Kirkman.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

This is Robert Kirkman, the creator of Invincible and The Walking Dead. He is writing this series. Okay, okay. So this issue starts out on the ship that the Decepticons are on. If you've ever seen the 80s series, you know, they got that ship underwater, that's their kind of base.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:02

So they're there, and Megatron's having like a seizure. And so we go into what I assume is like his subconscious, and we're seeing him going through these trials, and he's having to do accomplish different things, but he keeps getting tormented. Okay. And uh he's like, Who who are you? And he he like literally gets ripped apart in these trials, and they say that you're not you're not ready for that yet. So he just keeps getting tortured over and over, and these these trials he's losing. And finally, one of the off-screen speakers says, You wield the matrix of oppression. And that you're only people who dominate the weak can wield the matrix of oppression. And you you've seen the matrix of leadership, right? I know the matrix of leadership. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this is like a spiky version of that. It's almost like crystallized. Anyways, Megatron goes through these trials and he eventually finds on like in his subconscious something that looks like a building that's made out of the Decepticon symbol.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:09

So he walks in there and he discovers that the person who's tormenting him is uh Megatron's Prime. And so one of the original 13 primes. And he's torturing him because he wants him to serve him. And the key to the matrix of oppression is that you must first realize that you yourself are oppressed. And and so it's kind of an interesting take. And I don't know if this has ever been a thing before. Yeah, I don't I've never heard of it before. I haven't either. So this seems like something new, and I really think this kind of gives a new layer to what we're about to see with Alita, because now we have Alita wielding the matrix of leadership, we have Megatron wielding the matrix of oppression. And so I really think in the next couple issues we're gonna see these two matrixes go to war. And if Alita, if the matrix is testing the Alita like I think it is, it's gonna she's gonna fail against fighting Megatron.

SPEAKER_04 8:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:09

And the Matrix will obviously go back to Optimus. So it was an interesting take.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

I remember you saying that she uh had it or Optimus gave it to her, or kind of like a little child, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:21

So we'll see where this goes. Uh I think I'm excited for it, but it my biggest problem with this issue is it it felt so short.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Uh-huh. Um, I guess that's a good thing. You know, you're expecting more, but is it sh was it shorter than the last issue?

SPEAKER_05 8:36

It felt much shorter than the last issue. And that could just be because maybe this was a story. See, with I guess the problem with comics is that you only have that what 22 page count, and half of that's taken up by ads, I feel like.

SPEAKER_04 8:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:48

So he only Robert Kirkman only had a few pages to really tell this story. He couldn't have told it last story.

SPEAKER_04 8:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:54

Uh last issue. So I think that's kind of why he had to put it in this one. And then we're now going to see this story progress a little bit more, but we wanted to see, okay, here's the this matrix, here's this matrix, and where are we going to go from here?

SPEAKER_04 9:06

Right.

SPEAKER_05 9:07

And uh that's that's kind of it. That's all that really happened. He's gone through these trials and gets the the matrix. Um well, okay, I take that back. At the end of the issue, uh Megatron is laying on the floor of the ship and they ask, like, what's happening? Yeah. And he's got these like crystals coming out of his chest. And they're like, he's transforming into something, but we don't really know what. And that's how it ends.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

That's kind of cool, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 9:32

Yeah, so maybe we might see a more I mean Megatron is already this brutal, almost vampire, cannibal, evil guy right now in the comics. So what else could you do to make Megatron more evil if he's already eating Autobots? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

So he eats people.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

But that's that's all I have. Normally I would also talk about Absolute Superman, which came out this week, but I did not get the opportunity to read it. So only Transformers this week for me.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

Okay, and then we've did you have anything else come out? I did not.

SPEAKER_05 10:08

Oh, okay. Yeah. It was a it was a small little week for me.

Paul vs eBay Sellers

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Yeah, I also had a small week. I my unfortunately no absolute Batman this week. We're drooling at the mouth to get one. I'm actually trying to get my hands on a freaking first print, and um that's you've had a little bit of an experience.

SPEAKER_05 10:24

We don't have to share that here, but I have eBay scalpers are the worst.

Paul's Problem: Current State of Venom

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Real real quick, I I was getting ready to buy one, and this guy had it listed for like 170 or best offer, and I I reached out and I sent him an offer of 145, and I was just like, hey, if you want to like you want to work around that, like we can. Um, I'm just throwing a number out there. He immediately like declined it. So then I'm I said I sent him another offer of 153, and I was like, hey, all right, round two. And I sent him that, declined it again. When I checked it to send him a third offer, he put the price up$20. Jeez, man. And actually, before we started recording, he sent me an offer of it for$180 and I declined it. Because I'm like, nope, nope, you're you're no, you you you you've lost your opportunity. You've lost your opportunity, you've lost my business. Um, but yeah, so um I have a lot to talk about.

SPEAKER_05 11:14

Paul, you do have a lot to talk about. You today is the day. Today is the day that you're gonna hear Paul finally share his thoughts on Venom. He's been holding it back, and we talked about Death Spiral a few weeks ago when we first watched it. And you were sharing your thoughts on that, but a lot has happened in Death Spiral that has kind of broken the internet.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Yes. Oh yeah, we've we're just gonna get straight into it. Paul's dead. Paul is dead. Paul is dead. Not you, Paul. Not me, Paul. The other Paul. You know, that there's two Pauls and he's dead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:44

So this made me think of something, and I meant to tell you the other day we made a bet onto the next Superman Spider-Man crossover if he's gonna be in it. Remember, we were talking about we had to be and he's dead, so we both lose the bet.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Well, he might what if he still pops up in it?

SPEAKER_05 12:00

I would be so mad.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

He probably will. They totally already got those stories cracked out. Oh, yeah, I know. You know, so I mean, maybe, but also if Venom's in it, then I have to buy you dinner. Yes, yes, yes. I'm looking forward to that. We both have to buy each other dinner or we both start. Be like, I can't eat again. Uh but anyways, Paul is dead. Yeah, Paul's dead.

SPEAKER_05 12:21

Spider-Man didn't care.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Spider-Man did not care. He was just like, oh dang, that sucks. LOL. And um for some reason, Dylan. So, real okay, let me let me go through Death Spire real quick and just kind of let's do a real little recap. Now we're doing a recap of parts four, five, six, and seven. Um, which is again it's a crossover between Venom and Spider-Man, so it's I think it's Amazing Spider-Man. I think it's had th four of those issues, and then uh Venom had like one or two. Okay. Um so real quick, what all's been happening is Spiral, which I no longer think is Cletus Cassidy. I think I don't think he's Cassidy anymore, because Carnage has been trying to find his way through Eddie to get to Spiral so we can um so he can bond with him because he likes that he's a he's a mass murderer. Right. And um which I guess now that that's weird because before he was they were texting each other, and I'm like, how did Carnage get his phone number? That's whatever. Um because I I was that's why I assumed I was like, oh, it's probably Cassidy. Like they know they're they're thinking the same because they're the same person. So I thought it was Cassidy. He finally makes himself present um by attacking the relatives of Peter, which it did confirm that Shocker is apparently a relative of Mary Jane.

SPEAKER_05 13:38

Really?

SPEAKER_02 13:38

A distant, like cousin relative, which is so weird. That is weird, that's super weird.

SPEAKER_05 13:43

And has that ever been established before?

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Is that something new? Not that I know of. I mean, maybe, but I don't I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05 13:48

What do you mean you're not deep into Mary Jane lore? Because I don't I don't want her to be venom.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

She's not my venom. Hashtag not my venom on the on on actually no, don't do that. I was gonna say, I was gonna say the put put on the on the Al Ewing post, put hashtag not my venom. Um but uh so we get into this episode episode, we get into this issue, and um the Carnage symbiote finally bonds with um a torment.

SPEAKER_04 14:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

And he makes it very clear uh like hey, um here's the deal. Uh we Torment makes it clear to Carnage that we only kill um we only kill people who are in the family. Right. And we have to do it by the order of the spiral. So we have to do it in the order of who's who's next of kin. So who's first, who's second, who's third. And it's weird because that is weird. Because Torment they try to bond with each other, it get their playing gets foiled because Eddie Brock wakes up because Carnage put him to sleep when he tried to block bond with him. Right, right. Eddie wakes up and and kind of locks Carnage back in. And Torment just goes straight to MJ's house to kill Dylan. Which again doesn't make sense because you've got this thing of didn't he just say that he has to go through the spiral, which means you'd have to kill Eddie first and then kill Dylan? Right, right. Um, but he does that. Um, Dylan and Paul are playing Marvel Rivals.

SPEAKER_05 15:19

Yeah. Which I texted you when we were talking about it. You did. And I said, you know, it's a crazy thought because the emote for Venom in Marvel Rivals is the Venom twerking. So imagine playing, being able to play as your dad twerking on a video game that the world can see.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

I hate that. I hate that thought so much. The notion of that is honestly Paul would be doing it. But Paul's Paul was complaining because he was like, I wish they'd nerf Gambit.

SPEAKER_06 15:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Which is what we were thinking in the Batman uh the Superman Spider-Man issue. Um but um I actually have a I have a list of things that I kind of want to talk about in regards to Death Spiral. Okay. Um, because I'm actually gonna get to the the rivals thing and the whole deal with Paul and everything else and Paul dying. Right. Um so, real quick, the first thing that I noticed in uh the ish see, it was part four of Death Spiral. There is, you know, how comic books have those things where it's like it's like, oh, we have uh, you know, we've got uh like when text bubbles refer to a past event, it's got the little editor note that's like, hey, you want to hear about what she's talking about? Go back and read Venomore.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Which I don't recommend that at all. I hate Venomore, it's so bad. Um but uh in the caption it says it says uh read Venomore, and it says the editor who is saying this is Lore Lovin' Low, which I'm assuming they're talking about Nick Lowe, who's the main editor of Spider-Man. And you know, Lore Loving Low is a pretty intense title to give yourself to give yourself when you're consistently getting the lore wrong. And I currently have five things within these past issues of Death Spiral that have been gotten wrong. The first one was that um they make it pretty clear. Well, first of all, Mary Jane literally is talking to Peter while they're swinging through the city, and Mary Jane's like, she's like, Well, what happened was is Eddie Brock was about to die, and the Carnage Symbiote was about to die, so they had to bond together to keep themselves alive after Venom War. How would Mary Jane know that? How would Venom know that? Like, neither one of them have any way to see or know that that had happened. So in reality, it's like, okay, so Laura Love and Lowe doesn't realize who uh you know who who was there and who saw and who knew who knows what. Right. Because Mary Jane's saying this stuff, and it's like, how do you even know that? You're not supposed to know that. Like, that's the biggest question that someone I unless now Eddie might have said something to her. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure he did not.

SPEAKER_05 17:53

But has Eddie and MJ been talking consistently?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

They've barely spoke to each other. Okay. I know Flash Thompson has talked to her more because they're kind of dating or talking or whatever. Um, but that was the first thing. And I was just like, that's well, that was the first inconsistency. The second one was the fact that um Peter had said, like, oh, Carnage knows my identity because uh Carnage tapped into Eddie Brock's mind and now uh like he knows that I'm Peter Parker. Well, uh um actually um if you would have read um or if you would have read uh Absolute Carnage, especially issue three, you would have known that that's where Carnage found out that Peter Parker was Spider-Man because Carnage was pretending to be Eddie Brock, and Carnage uh and Peter's talking to Eddie about like, hey, when are you gonna tell Dylan that you're his father? And the fake Eddie goes, Oh. Because Carnage just realized that that's his son. Right. And then the real Eddie is in the background going, Wait, Peter, get away from him. And then the fake Carnage goes, Peter, and then transforms into Carnage. So right there is when, you know, and I guess you could say, like, maybe not, but right there he says it. Right. So right there you would at least know he at least knows his name. Yes. Um, but yeah, so Laura Levin Lowe didn't know that lore. I guess the YouTube video didn't explain that. Um, so also uh another Laura Levinlow uh inconsistency is Carl Brock lives in San Francisco, not New York City, because when Torment goes to kill Eddie Brock's dad, Carl Brock, he does it in New York City. And if you read Donnie Kate's Venom run, which I'm gonna refer to a lot because it is probably the best Venom run of all time. Of all time.

SPEAKER_05 19:30

Post coming up soon about that.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Oh, yes, there is. I'm excited. Um Carl Brock does not live in New York City, he lives in San Francisco. There was never a moment where he moved to New York City. So, like the fact that he's here for the sake of this book means that someone didn't do their homework.

SPEAKER_05 19:46

I want to say something real quick. Yeah, go ahead. So this isn't just you pulling up stuff just out of your butt. This isn't just well, I think this.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

You are the biggest Venom fan I have ever seen. Unfortunately, for your bank account, you buy all the covers half the time. Yes. You you have you've almost collected the entire run of Venom from Amazing Spider-Man 300 to now.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

I am missing in the total number of Venom issues, I'm missing, I think, 30 single issues out of the entire 200 and what what are what number are we on? 200 and 256? Yeah, something like that. Like I'm literally missing 30 issues, and it's just like little stuff from the 90s. Like it's not nothing pivotal.

SPEAKER_05 20:31

But you and you've read those too. You're not just collecting them.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

I'm a huge I've not read everything. I've read I've I've not read every single thing, but I know a lot about everything that's happened. I've read Venom for literally ever. Like he's been my favorite character. He is like, I know yours is Superman Spider-Man, right? This is my Superman Spider-Man, Venom. So like seeing Venom in this whole new painted image that he has been in for the last four, like no, five years.

SPEAKER_05 20:57

Oh man, I didn't realize that.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Almost it, it's almost like it hurts because like I guess we're just gonna go and get into this. Um, my main problem with Death Spiral, right? My main problem is first of all, I'll I'll give it credit. This this story has felt the most like a symbiote story in this entire run, but it's also not a lot. Like I told you on the phone the other day, I was like, the way I can I I want to relate this is like finding a bone in a pile of shit. It's not shit, it's a bone, but it's like it's still like it's the best thing in the pile of shit. Because it's not shit.

SPEAKER_05 21:32

That is I've never heard that analogy before, but a lot. Okay, well, I've never good at analogies. You are like sand in your uh poison your sandbox. What was the you used one about fishing or something the other day?

SPEAKER_02 21:45

I don't know, maybe, but literally, like I just I like you know, when you have this character who has been so pivotal to like Venom has always been a specific way, right? Right, he's always done certain things. There's always been rules to go with this the symbiote and how the symbiote works. And I don't know if it's just the movies being a thing. I don't know if it's just that or or what it is, but like it felt it feels like everything is not the way it's supposed to be. Right. Right? Like one of one of my other inconsistencies was the fact that you know they make it a point where uh Carnage leaves Eddie Brock, he he hops off of Eddie to get on to torment. Right. But Eddie starts dying because he's not bonded to a symbiote. And Carnage starts dying when he's not and it's like that's not how that works. No. Like symbiote and hosts don't have to be completely bonded together in order to like for each other to live.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Right? Like, you know, the symbiote, if you want to go back into like actual lore, the symbiote lived in the church alone for years before it, or not years, but months before it found Eddie. Right. And Eddie just came in and it was just like, oh, yep, I'm gonna pick you. Yeah. You know, like the the fact that like the movies, because the movie set that up. Like the movie made the whole thing about like, oh, well, if they're not if they're not symbiotic, they can't they can't bond together because they'll kill each other.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

And it it it it's ruined the books because now all the editors are putting that in the books, and it's like that's not how that works. That's like never. Venom bonds to whoever it wants. If that was the case, then how come Venom can bond with Spider-Man and Hulk and and we talked about this once what was that event the that came out a few a couple years ago?

SPEAKER_05 23:27

Was it Venom USA Carnage USA? Carnage USA. We were talking about that one when we were talking about this before this episode.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

That in that book, Carnage bonds to like everybody Captain America, the Hawkeye, the thing, Captain America. I don't know if Iron Man was it Wolverine too. I think Wolverine. Yep, Wolverine was in.

SPEAKER_05 23:46

So you're telling me all these heroes have this specific genetic marker that that Carnage can bond to without killing them? And then why is it that Carnage can leave them and they're perfectly fine?

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Exactly. Yeah, it it it's it's a really bad uh plot trope. Symbiotes they bond to whoever they want. It's a it's a it's like, hey, I want to bond with you because that's why the symbiote likes Spider-Man so much. Was because Spider-Man was the only like well, was a person that it could bond to that it's not having to do all the work, it's actually amplifying something good that's already there, right? Right, right. And now Venom is different because Venom is like a mixture of Eddie Brock hates Peter Parker for ruining his life or hates Spider-Man for ruining his life, and the symbiote hates Peter for getting for ditching it.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

So you have two negatives now conjoining to make a super negative. Yeah. Um, that's mad. That's how math works. Negative negative makes big negative.

SPEAKER_05 24:39

Um that is why I failed math.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Yeah, that is why I am not a mathematician. Um but it it just it really irks me that like these people who are in charge of all of this stuff, and like and like I'm trying to not blame Al Ewing, which we're gonna get into that too. We're gonna get into that, you know, because I feel like he's responsible for a lot of it too.

SPEAKER_05 25:00

I think he is.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Um, but also I don't think it's fully him, I think it's other people too. But again, we're gonna get into that. But like um among our books on the table, I have all new venom number one, and I also have Venom 200. Um, and I put these both out because I wanted to kind of look at both of them as a comparison to like what we had versus what we have now. Right. Right? You have Donnie Cates who wrote Venom as a character. As a king. And a king. Like he became he was and what was so good about this book, right, is that Eddie was nothing. Right. He was low, he was worthless, he was like like he was always homeless and he was always asking for help, and it he was just always not doing the right thing. Right. Just because he he doesn't know how to how to take responsibility. And this book grows and grows and grows into him like having to to fight his demons and to learn more, like find out that he has a brother, then realize it's not his brother, it's his son. Right. And then like having to be a father without like all this stuff, and you know, like you've got that and you've got null, and it's just like that run was so perfect, and I and I think that spoiled me because now I'm just like I want more of what that was. Right. Because you took Venom, who was a Spider-Man villain, and you made him a cosmic entity, yes, right? You made him a a force that's just like he is his own thing now, right? And Marvel saw that and went, Oh, he's his own thing now.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Time to put my hands in on it. Um, but like it, it, it, it, I don't know, man, but like going back to Death Spiral, um, you know, Lore Love and Low, which I called it low hanging low. Um lore hanging low is what I called it. My bad. Um, lore hanging low, because he doesn't get any of the freaking lore correct. Right. Um, there's one part where Carnage has heart eyes. He's got little heart googly eyes, um, which is not a cartoon.

SPEAKER_05 26:50

Cartoon-ish style, or like he forms his eyes into heart eyes.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

It's like cartoon style.

SPEAKER_05 26:54

Uh okay. Yeah, but that's not Carnage, you know, Carnage is a see that's this is one of those things that we were going to talk about too, when we especially when we get to the Al Uing comments, is that it Venom is not necessarily a goofy Venom is not a goofy character. He he has.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Now, he has goofy moments. There are definitely moments of him being goofy, and like, and that's like the fun of it is that oh, he's not this giant monster all the time. He's he he can be goofy. But the thing about like like Donnie's run is the fact that Venom was like it was everything had purpose, right? Right, right. You know, and looking at it, especially from like a filmmaker's point of view, and like me writing, me being a writer and stuff like everything that book had had purpose. Yes. You know, you have like one of the things Donnie Cate said that I'll never forget is when he was talking about the book, he said, he said, it's always raining, it's always raining in this book because I want this to not feel like it's like yes, it's a part of 616. Yes, it's a part of the main universe, but I want it to feel like it's its own world. Like I don't want people to read this and be like, oh, what's Hulk doing? No, I want people to fully be in invested in Venom and Eddie Brock. And he said, It's not like a cool rain, it's hot, it's it's it's nasty rain. Okay, you know, it's sticky. Yeah, he said, like it should feel uncomfortable. Eddie should always feel uncomfortable. Yeah. And he was like, and the suit, like Venom isn't this big thing because he said he he specifically told Ryan Stegman, who was the artist of the book, to really tighten down on um the way that like don't forget there's a man in there, there's a guy in that suit, you know. So like let's see Venom, but also let's not forget that there is a person back there. Right. Um he said that's why he has the mask pulled back a lot when Eddie's talking, is so like you see that Eddie is, you know, is this. But the way the symbiote and Eddie communicate is just so real. The way, like, you know, he's having these awful visions of null and this dark entity and the creator of like he was the first being to exist in the universe, and he was a celestial killer. Yeah, like that's the that's the most insane lore for Venom ever. Yeah, and I know I'm I'm jumping all over the place, I'm I'm hopping back and forth, but like I I guess we can just go ahead and get into it, like Venom as a whole, because like what is coming out now is just not Venom. Right. You know, they put Paul in the book, and and yeah, Paul died. And and I don't I I I kind of like I know you have a theory that he's coming back.

SPEAKER_05 29:19

Well, that's the rumor right now. Is the rumor is that Paul is gonna come back and be a mutant and that he's actually gonna move from the Spider-Man book to the X-Men book.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Which I'm sure X-Men fans aren't. Oh, yeah, I'm sure X-Men fans are like, Are you kidding me right now?

SPEAKER_05 29:33

No.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:35

So so that's the that's the that's the rumor right now is that he's this because the way he dies is Torment stabs him in the stomach and he lays down on the ground and he dies.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

He literally he gets stabbed, he tells Dylan to run. He's like, Dylan, get out of here. Yeah. And then MJ, Peter, and Carnage break in. It's like a big splash page of them all j breaking through the door. And then uh uh Eddie Carnage is naturally like, Where's Dylan? And then MJ, for some reason, is like, Paul, are you okay? It's like you don't like him. Right. Why are you why are we why are we acting like these heroes care about this character who clearly they haven't? Like even Dylan, right? Like, um, well, before we get to Dylan, like MJ starts to help, like, she's like, Paul, are you okay? And he's like, No, I'm just just don't worry about me. Just like go help Dylan, go stop this guy. And Peter's just like, oh, that sucks. You're dying. You know, which is totally in Spider-Man's Oh, yeah. That's exactly how Spider-Man was. Yeah, that's how Spider-Man has always been. Good, good for editorial.

SPEAKER_05 30:35

Even if you remember back to when Dan Slott was writing, uh Peter took a bullet for Green Goblin.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

That's true.

SPEAKER_05 30:42

So, but but he's gonna let the guy who stole his girlfriend just die.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

He's like, You've robbed me too much.

SPEAKER_05 30:49

You you who killed my girlfriend, I'm gonna save your life and prevent you from dying. But you who stole my girlfriend, now you can die.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

No, you can just die. Yeah, yeah, that's totally Spider-Man. And uh, you know, so and of course, like of course, I think they killed Paul mainly because they wanted to be like, okay, everybody, everybody, we have an announcement, we have an announcement.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

If you read the next venom book, Paul Rabin is dead. I know, I know, he is dead, but but hang on, hang on, but he might come back.

unknown 31:31

Boo.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Um I just I think that I don't know. It kind of felt like it was forced.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

I was kind of just I I was really wishing he would just do his own thing. He would just be like, you know what, I'm leaving. Like, I'm just done. Like, I like this character doesn't deserve a death. This death is not meaningful. It's just it you should not be jumping up and down when a character dies because you don't like that character.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

And and it's not that this guy's a bad guy, it's just he's a character nobody no one likes him.

SPEAKER_05 32:03

Right. And that was, I think, where your point was going to, because this is what uh we were talking about before we recorded, that Al Ewing has been praised because he has broken up MJ and Paul. Yep. He has now killed Paul, and for the cover, I think it's Venom 258, and I could be totally wrong on that, maybe 257, something like is Peter and MJ walking on a bridge in Central Park. Yeah, and it looks like they're kind of flirting. Yeah, so people are like, Well, we have to give Al Ewing credit because he killed he broke him up, he killed Paul, and now he's opening the door again for Peter and MJ to get back together.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:37

But is that enough to really save the rest of the stuff that he's done about Venom? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

I think I think Paul and MJ, because again, that was I I didn't read Zeb Wells' Spider-Man Run. Okay. And I also I want to put this out here. I don't think Zeb this is oh, this is this is hot take hot take. I don't think Zeb Wells is a bad writer. I think his Spider-Man run was not good, but he has written some very good other stories. He he wrote Carnage USA. Oh, really? Yes, he wrote Carnage USA. He I'm pretty sure, I'm almost positive. Let me let me let me just fact check that real quick.

SPEAKER_05 33:09

Well, I I I'm I'm if that's a hot take, I'm I'm right there with you. I don't think Zeb Wells is a bad writer. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yeah, he wrote he wrote Carnage USA. He wrote uh Venom Dark Origin, which was really good.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Um I'm trying to think what else he's writing.

SPEAKER_05 33:21

Then he's not a I wouldn't say he's a bad writer. Maybe Spider-Man just wasn't his some some writers have characters that they're just so good at writing.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:30

Uh Scott Snyder for Batman, for example.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Johnny Kate's Venom. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

So they're just really good at that. And then some of them they're they don't do so hot with.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

And that's not uh a hate on them necessarily. It's just I could I couldn't write Venom well at all. You could write a Venom story a hundred times better than whatever I could come up with.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:51

And uh I I think that's just people in general.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

I couldn't write a Captain America story. You kill that.

SPEAKER_05 33:57

Well, I don't know about that. Well, I mean, in a good way.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah, but you're like, you don't know you could write a Captain America? I'll kill him again. You'll make him Hydrocat.

SPEAKER_05 34:07

I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. This podcast is over.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

He just gets up and leaves, he's like, uh yeah, you know what? I'm done. I'm leaving. Um, but uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 34:16

That would be a lot of pressure, honestly, for me. Right. If I was to try to write a Captain America story.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

What would be a book you could write?

SPEAKER_05 34:22

Superman? I would want to I would want to try to write Superman. Uh I think Superman would probably be the easiest character for me, but I really think a Captain Really, I think a Superman Superman or Captain America would honestly they would be the stories that I would want to tell, but they would be the hardest story to tell. Because I have so much love and respect for those characters that I want to give it such a great justice that I would be afraid I would not even write the story that I would want to tell. Okay. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

Yeah. And I and I think, you know, I think stories should be, I like it when stories take a leap that's like, whoa, I didn't expect that. Like, I'm gonna say it. I think MJ being a host of Venom could be very interesting.

unknown 35:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

And I think that that could work really well, but I don't think it is. You know, I think it's it's written to be very poorly, and there are a lot of things missed that's like, you know, and we'll get into that, but like there's a lot of things missed that like it just doesn't work. You know, I think it it like especially with Donnie Cates, right? Like Donnie Cates was a very big fan of Venom. He when he got on at Marvel, he's he said, I want to write two books. There's two books that I want to write, Thor and Venom. Those are the two books he said. Um, they didn't give him Thor right away, but they did Venom.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

And he took it and he planned this big thing, and he he didn't he didn't think it was gonna last long. He's like, I'm gonna write it, and then if it just gets cut off, then I'll conclude it. But I'm gonna write this big thing. And you know, he said, I don't wanna I don't want to do this with failure in mind, you know. I want to do the best I can and see if it gets out. But I think a lot of these writers, especially like Al, yeah, like with Venom, you know, it feels like Al is he's writing, he's just writing every week.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

He sits down, he writes the issue, he's done. He sits down, he he's like, Okay, what happened last week? Okay, well now I'm gonna do this. And he doesn't really have like he has an idea of where to go. Right. Because you know, now we're going, you know, we're doing Death Spiral, then after that we're doing Queen in Black, which is literally stolen from Marvel Rivals, right? Like that's not a joke at all. It's literally stolen because they did it first. Right. And um, so I I don't know. I just like I think like Donnie Cates, like the thing that made him so good, or even like uh Scott Snyder, is I think when you're working with an editorial who's super like clingy with these characters, because Venom is now part of the Spider-Man editorial office. When Donnie when Donnie Cates was writing Venom, it was not. It was its own it was its own thing. Oh, okay. It had its own editorial, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Oh okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Um it it meant that like you know, when uh when when Donnie Cates was writing this book, he would get people being like, Hey, uh, we can't really do this. But Donnie Cates would fight. He'd be like, he wouldn't fight, but he'd be like, uh, well, can we at least do this? Like, yes, we gotta find a middle ground. He would try to find the middle ground. And I think a lot of writers don't. I think they just go, okay, and then they just like water it down completely. They pour a gallon of water on a plant and just hope it survives and it dies.

SPEAKER_05 37:16

Right, right. You know, so I was gonna say, like, you're you're hitting something there with Donnie Cates, is that you Donnie, you can tell Donnie Cates sat down and he had a vision for what he wanted to do with venom. And with Al Ewing, I don't know saying when a new writer hops on a book that they have to immediately pick up where this last writer left off, but it felt like Al did, and then he's like, But I don't like this, so I'm gonna just gonna erase everything you just did and do my own thing, and and that's like the the problem of the main two, Marvel and DC, is that these characters and these stories they go on and on and on forever. That you're never you might have character growth in one story arc, like like Donnie Cates Venom, you might have this progression from nothing to being the king in black, but then when another writer takes over, they can just erase they can character assassinate everything that the last writer did and just start all over. And I think that's kind of what Al is doing because you gotta think when Donnie Cates left, Venom was in the a great spot. Venom was. He is the king of all symbiotes.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Yeah, you had him being the king in black, null was dead, um, you had Dylan now like being there to be his son. You have um Flash Thompson who's alive, he came back to life, and now he's agent anti-Venom again, trying to find his way in the world since he's been dead for so long. Right. You have anti-symbiote soldiers who are now out, like looking for symbiotes because now this is a big nate uh worldwide threat. Right. And like you even have politics involved because like they there was another story that came after this, uh after uh Donnie Kate's Venom run called Extreme Carnage, which really literally focused on the politics of hey, like I'm an anti-symbiote president and we're not doing this and like stuff like that. So you have all that to to work with, right? Right, and he he had a good idea, like his book, his venom run when it started out, it was good. Like it had it had some good concepts, but um it was good, and then I noticed that kind of keeping reading, it kept telling the same story from different perspectives. Okay, so the whole premise of the new book was that Eddie gets stuck in a there's there's two separate books kind of going on. You've got Eddie in space and you've got Dylan on Earth. Right. Dylan is on earth being Venom, Eddie's in space being Venom. But immediately the book starts out with a problem. Uh uh, Al Ewing is like, uh, remember what I told you, Dylan. Never bond with the symbiote. The last issue of Venom 200 of Donnie Cates uh Eddie Brock gives Ven the Symbiote to Dylan. He says, he says, I'm gonna be doing King and Black stuff in space. And he and he he aged, he progressively aged because that that symbiote power, that cosmic energy was was just really wearing down the human body. Right. So he's aging and he gives it to Dylan. He goes, Dylan, you are gonna be the venom on earth that I cannot be. I am now called to do a greater thing. Well, he's doing it from Earth, so he's not actually leaving, he's just sending his psyche out to do things. And he literally gives him the suit and says, You are venom. And he gives it this new look, he gives him chains, you know, which is a spawn reference. He has a instead of the spider on his chest, it turns into a dragon, like on like Null's chest. So Venom is now separated from Spider-Man, right? He is his own, right? And he is now gonna carry this on his own. As soon as the next book starts, like none of that means anything. And it's just it it immediately just like, did you guys not talk to each other? Right. Did he not like did Donnie not tell you how this was gonna end? And like you work that in to begin. Because like if you're if I'm picking up Venom, the first thing I want to say is, hey, you've got six more books coming out before my my first issue comes out. Right. What happens in those six books? Because I need to know. And then you work with that info and then move forward.

SPEAKER_05 40:57

But but there's no coordination with that. There was no there was no coordination with the total jump.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Yeah. And then the book, it had like a story, it had places it was gonna go. Yeah, but then it just it was just repeating. It's like, okay, I've read this from four different perspectives. Right. When are we gonna further the plot? And then it just like things are introduced that just never come back, and then you had Dark Web when that happened. Yes, that set the whole book. That I think that's what messed up that run of Al Ewing's Venom. But long story short, the book kind of turns into a funny wrestling book. Yes, and the tone completely changes, and then then we get the whole who's who's venom? We have an all-new venom, and then we find out it's Mary Jane, which was like it got spoiled before the book even came out because everybody posts it and the variant cover listings on the websites were popping up saying Mary Jane cover, Mary Jane secret variant, Mary Jane is Venom variant, and it's just like, oh, okay, so we don't need to know who it is. I don't know. It's just it, it's it's the the the buildup of this character really sucks because I don't know what Venom is anymore. Venom is everything but Venom because Donnie Cates took him, made him a thousand times bigger and more interesting than anyone than I could have ever imagined Venom being. Right, right. And now I'm even more like, oh my gosh, I love this so much. Like he has wings now, and there's this immense like lore to the symbiotes and where they come from, and like Clintar, like it's not a planet, it's a cage. Like this, these plot twists, these like rewrited plot twists that were just so epic. And I don't know, it's just now it's just it's all meaningless. Venom is just a an alien that's that is on you, and Venom, you know, he he it I don't know, it's just it's not what it used to be. No's back, yeah. No's back, and he's a good guy. Yeah, like he's he's becoming this, like he he comes back from literally nowhere. Like it makes no sense where he came back. And I actually I actually began writing my own story of like what what would have Venom what would happen from Venom if I if I got Venom after 200, what would I have done? And I immediately started roting it. And I also brought Noel back, but I brought I was gonna bring it back excruciatingly slow. Okay. I know this is like side tangent, like oh, this is my fan fiction. Um, but I would have brought it back super slow and just have like okay, in that last moment before Null died, he moved his conscience to one symbiote.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

And just said, I'm just gonna hide, like I you have to hide and leave.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Yeah.

Responding to your Al Ewing Comments

SPEAKER_02 43:22

And then I was gonna have Carnage come back because, like, think about this. Carnage is pissed. Like Carnage brought Null back and Null failed. Right. Carnage is probably like, dude, what the heck? Right. Like, I did this and you failed. You are you are a loser. Right. And then maybe he would take up the mantle. I don't know. Yeah. But like I I don't, it just it, it's it's it sucks because apparently Al wanted Venom. Because Johnny Cates had said to Al, like, hey, I want um, you know, like, oh, I love your Hulk run. I hate that it's ending. Like, I'd love to write that. And then Al's like, oh, I I hate that you're ending your Venom run. I like that. And then they stopped and they they went to the the um edit. Editor and was like, Hey, can we just swap? And they went, Yes. Because they saw dollar signs, and then of course both books flopped. Well, because Al got or uh Donnie got in his car accident, and then that stopped Hulk from being written, and then Al just started taking crack halfway through the writing process. Um I don't know. Do we want to go ahead and get into Al talk? Because I think we're there. Like, I think we're there. We've got some comments to read.

SPEAKER_05 44:19

I think you already know Paul's take because he just threw Al Ewing.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

I just vomited all this information.

SPEAKER_05 44:24

We're gonna be respecting Al Ewing are smoking crack. I'll ewing your smoking. So I think the way the best way for this to work, because you are you are more opinionated on Al Ewing and Venom than I am. I think the best way for this to happen is for me to read some of these comments and let you respond to them. Okay. And I think that's just the best way because Al Ewing is not touching any of my books right now. So I don't have any strong opinions. Yes. So let's get into this. So this first person says, I'm just here to praise Immortal Hulk. After a very long hiatus on comic books, Hulk blew my mind. It is a masterpiece, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

Okay. Now that's something. Now, like that's been the hardest thing with I have not read Immortal Hulk. I haven't. I have not. Um I borrowed it for a while, but I never fully I read I read a bit of it and I I I did like it, but the problem for me was I was so mad at Al at the time as a Venom that I was I was having a hard time reading it. And um my problem was is that like I I don't hate that book. The concept seems super cool. Yeah, it's like a it's almost like a universal monster movie, right? And I think Hulk real that's a really cool cover to put with Hulk, right? My my problem is with Al being Venom, and this is one of the first things that I noticed was that like a lot of the time when I would be like, his book on Venom sucks. Like, why does this suck? Right. Everybody's like, what are you talking about? He's a great writer. He wrote The Immortal Hulk. And I'm like, okay, but this sucks. I'm not enjoying this book. Like, why is all this stuff not right? You know, I but again, I haven't read Immortal Hulk.

SPEAKER_05 46:02

I know you said it was I I did read Immortal Hulk and uh I I actually enjoyed it. It was I've never really been a Hulk, I mean growing up, I I like the old Hulk movies, you know. So I liked it as a kid, but I never really sat down and read Hulk comics. I thought it was I thought it was a good run. It was not like my favorite, but I would say if anybody's if somebody came up to me and said, Hey, I want to read Hulk comics, what should I read? Well, the only one I know is Immortal Hulk. Yeah. So that's the one I would recommend. If there's a better Hulk story out there, I I don't know what it is. Planet Hulk is good, but I've only seen the animated movie. I've never read the comic.

SPEAKER_03 46:38

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 46:39

Uh so I I I guess I guess you have to give him credit, Al you and credit there that Immortal Hulk was and is considered the best Hulk story. But maybe maybe Hulk is in his wheelhouse, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Right. Like maybe like, yeah, like the way Donnie Cates is with Venom, you know, like maybe Al was like, yeah, I think Hulk is really cool. I think, you know, because Al's kind of an old guy, right? Yeah. Like it's very clear that he's an older guy. So he he a lot of his writing consists of like old dialogue, and you know, like he says things that's like I've never heard someone say that. Like your old like from Spongebob. Um, but but like and and something like that Hulk run where it it's like a monster movie, I'm sure he grew up with Frankenstein. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure he grew up with uh the the the monster of the black lagoon, right? Uh um uh like you know Dracula, like all those old school monster movies, the Invisible Man, like all those things I'm sure really like fueled into that. So that's cool, but when you're doing something cosmic horror like Venom, and then you try to interweave movie things, and then you try to interweave like like zombie oats, like it it's all it's like what is your and he you you actually mentioned a long time ago that he his his Sodom and Gomorrah was his inspiration for Venom.

SPEAKER_05 48:04

Yes, I do believe that was something said somewhere, yeah. So yeah, so I have League of Comic Geeks, the app where you maintain your com you put in your comic collections, you can mark what comics you read, yada yada yada. And there's a little community on there, and every so often they will do an Ask Me Anything and they'll have on a big rider, and one of those was Al Ewing, and it's been a few weeks. I've slept since then, uh you know, we're about to have a baby. So there's a lot that has happened since then. So I could totally botch this now. But if you go back to that ask me anything, one of the things that Al Ewing apparently responded to and said that his inspiration for Venom, I believe, was the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible. Which, for those who don't know, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible is a city so wicked that God sent fire and brimstone down from heaven to wipe out this city that he viewed as an abomination for the sins that they were committing. So I don't really know how you can make this connection with Venom here, unless you have an idea.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

The only thing I could think of is he hated how dark the book was getting and how like oh this this is this this it's getting so wicked because it's getting far away from Spider-Man. Like Venom is now not as close to Spider-Man as he used to be, and he's his own character. Let me just ruin everything.

SPEAKER_05 49:30

Yeah, I mean that's the only way I I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

It's just yeah, but he never explained why or what it was, but there's nothing in any of the books that has a theme like that.

SPEAKER_05 49:41

No. I well honestly like a good book usually has a theme. Right. And and I don't see one from what I what I have seen of all new venom, and I don't think you have probably seen a theme either.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

It just it just feels like all new venom and venom right now, because it's not all new venom anymore, it's just venom, but it's still like it still has this title card, you know. It's not like it's still the same thing, right? Um it it it's it feels like it's just all the characters that you didn't like in the Spider-Man run. I'm gonna put them all in the Venom book and just let them do their thing. Okay. Yeah. And it's just like it's like a ball, a chain with a giant steel ball on it sinking venom to the bottom of the freaking ocean.

SPEAKER_05 50:19

So speaking of that, when we were just talking about Immortal Hulk, the next comment is kind of split.

SPEAKER_04 50:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 50:24

Somebody says, as a Hulk and Venom fan, I'm genuinely torn. I loved his Immortal Hulk run, but his work on Venom was divisive even before Mary Jane became the Symbiote's host. Venom War and its setup pretty much deconstructed everything Eddie did and how he changed during the absolute carnage king and black run. Yes. And Mary Jane becoming the new host had seemingly cemented this bad reputation for Eddie, despite how much of a hero, flawed in all, he's become over the years.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

I agree with that. Yeah. I fully agree with that because you have because that was the thing is that like Eddie knows he's very flawed. Like he knows he's a very flawed person. And that that was what Donnie Cates Venom was really emphasizing was that like he is a flawed person. But like, even at the end, like King of Black Number Five, which was probably one of my favorite issues out of the whole series, is when he picks up Muelnir and Silver Surfer's board that's been transformed into a sword, and he combines them to make this huge symbiote. And he's got the um the uh Enigma Force inside of him. And it was this moment of like for the first time through this whole thing, we've seen Eddie just always be like, always have the short end of the stick. He he's he's always like, you know, he's it's just it's a pitiful. I mean, it's it's almost it's almost like he's homeless, right? Like it's almost like he's a homeless person just trying to make it, and he's got this symbiote in him. And then on top of all of it, at the end, like he becomes on top, and for he's the most powerful Marvel Marvel character. So it's like you see the homeless man become rich for a moment, right? And it was just like, oh my gosh, like it was just this amazing moment. So, like all of those flaws that was really emphasized and really leaned upon on that runner were gone. Right. Even the fact that Eddie Brock was old was undone immediately, like that didn't stay. And like I wanted to see that, right? I want to see Eddie Brock, like he's old. What happens? How does this affect Dylan? How does being Venom affect Dylan? Right, right. Like you've got Venom, who is a very negative eating emotional symbiote, which I know Donnie's didn't run didn't really lean on that, but like like what if this next part did? Right. What if we focused on that? And what if the sim like what you know Dylan's got these anger issues, and he's got like from because he grew up with that. Yeah, he grew too. Well, he grew up with with Dylan Brock, or not Dylan, um, he grew up with um Carl, right, who was abusive. So literally all that abuse that Eddie's gotten, Dylan has gotten too. So we see that in him, and and maybe the symbiote feeds on it, right? Maybe the symbiote leans into it because it's some kind of a dopamine rush or something. I don't know. I it's just like all of these things that would have been so good to see that were left undone were just just thrown away. It was all gone, and the book just became a a space book, right? Yeah, I mean it felt like Guardians of the Galaxy.

Why Great Stories point to the Greatest Story

SPEAKER_05 53:11

Yeah. Well, he was also uh Al Ewing, I think, was writing Guardians of the Galaxy around the same time, right? Well, and there you go. So yeah, yeah. Uh so one thing I want to talk quick about uh is something you keep talking about with Donnie Cates' Venom. You see you see Eddie go from a homeless man to being the king in black, yeah. Uh having nothing to essentially having the entire universe. And so this is a theme that we have been talking about on our Instagram, yeah, about how great stories point to the greatest story ever told. And so this is a theme that we are seeing here even in Vidom. And I I think a story that is great is essentially pointing us back, and I'm not saying these stories are inherently Christian, right? That they're not Narnia, they're not Lord of the Rings, right? But they they're central themes, they're central motifs, they're central archetypes that we see in these stories that are played out that point us back to Christ.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Right.

SPEAKER_05 54:04

And Eddie being low, just as Christ was just a humble carpenter, yeah, and eventually his exaltation glorification after his resurrection, right? That's that's a progression, that's a story arc that is mirrored in Christ.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Yeah. But then Which Eddie did die, and when he was dead, the Enigma Force is what revived him. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:24

So he was being raised back to life again, pointing us back to Christ even more. Yeah. So that's why that's such a great story, because it's a great story that points back to the greatest story ever told. And these things are written on our hearts. This is why we continue to tell stories about sacrifice, about mercy, about death and resurrection, and what it what going from a low point to being exalted, yeah, just as Christ was. And this is not anything we're seeing, and I'm not saying every great story, but I think, I think, and I believe every great story does point back to the greatest story ever told me.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

I agree. I think, I think even if it's not like um, I know you made a post about invincible. I did make a post about we can definitely talk about that in a little bit. Yes. Um, but like I like I think that all stories have that they lean on that, you know. Yes. Like I work at a church and you know, we just got through with Easter week, holy week, and um one of the things that like I learned through all of that, and I had like told my pastor, I was like, you know, hey, like this is literally like a superhero story, you know. Like he like I feel like I've seen this story throughout superheroes, and it's not like directly, right? Like, no, of course not. Venom is not Jesus by any means, Eddie Brock is not Jesus by any means, and the king in black is not a symbol of God for sure, right? But like it you can see how you can just see like going from nothing to becoming something, right? Right, and like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:47

So this is it it's it's it's literally studying archetypes throughout history, and this is kind of uh really not what we're talking about here, but it it's with the Al Ewing and people's opinions on Al Ewing, but that this is just what I what I believe, what you believe. It's pointing us back to an objective truth, yeah. Uh, and that truth is that Jesus Christ is God who came in human flesh, yeah, and uh was crucified for our sins. You don't see Venom be crucified for our sins, that's not what we believe, but it's it's got a central theme that has been told over and over and over again. And uh you know, when I first became a Christian, I told my friend, I said, You almost need to be a comic book fan before you become a Christian. Yeah, and he's like, What? That is that makes no sense. And I said, Because when you read the Bible and when you do all this stuff, like you and you've read comic books, comic books is your background.

SPEAKER_04 56:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:44

Oh my gosh, I see these stories. Death of Superman, for example, he dies and then comes back. It's it's a good man who was, you know, yeah, killed for everybody else. He was the only one who could defeat the enemy, or you see this. And it's like when you read the Bible and you have this imagery, like you can only picture it in comic book form. Almost like when when Jesus is is taken down from the cross and he's put into the tomb, it's like to be continued almost. Yeah, you know, yeah, and and even and we're not the only people we're not just saying this because we're we're Christian or whatever, or I have a Bible podcast or whatever, but like people like Zack Snyder, who did Man of Steel and Batman vs. Superman, right? I was surprised to see on um on on Good Friday, he had posted two images. Yeah, and the first image is was uh the painting of Jesus being taken down from the cross. And this is his inspiration for Batman versus Superman. Yeah, after Superman is pierced by dark uh by doomsday uh and dies, he they're literally pulling him down, yeah, just the same way the painting portrays Jesus being taken down from the cross. Yeah, yeah. So it's not that we're saying Superman is Jesus either. Yeah, yeah. We're just saying these themes point back.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

You can see a resemblance in these things, yeah. So that's a good point, though. I'm glad you yeah, because because I didn't think about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:02

And that's why I think Venom is a great story pointing back to the greatest story.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

Yep. But so people are also back to the guy who writes the not greatest story.

SPEAKER_05 58:10

Right. Al Ewing. So some people who are arguing with you and saying that Val Ewing is not is actually a great writer, somebody is saying Ewing is the only one giving classic superheroes and comics writing style really on point.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_05 58:25

I'm assuming what they're talking about is that they're giving them that Al Ewing is giving comic books style that they've never had before.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

Well, maybe it's like an OG style. I mean, it it definitely a lot of the books read like their old books. Okay. Like they read like that. That's why I don't like it.

SPEAKER_05 58:40

Is that okay? So I was about to say, is that a good thing for that thing?

SPEAKER_02 58:43

I it can be. I think it depends on the character. Right. Like Venom doesn't need that. I don't think Venom needs an old school writing style. I think Venom needs uh like a new writing style, right? Like, actually, if you read Lethal Protector, Venom, like Eddie Brock, like usually when Eddie Brock is Eddie and he's talking to the symbiote, you can see a black text bubble of what the symbiote is saying in his head. Yeah. In those books, that didn't exist. That actually never really came around till like I could be wrong, but I want to say Space Night is when that really started. Which it feels really late in the game. But I just I I there's a lot of looks. Yeah, that maybe. And there's a lot of um, there's a lot of times where Venom, when Eddie does talk to him, he still talks to the symbiote, but he just talks to it and that's it. Okay you don't hear what the symbiote is actually saying to him, you just get insight based on what he says. Yeah. So like I think again, something like that, that benefits this a story like this better than like the old writing style. So like I would go with that. And plus, we're not in the 19 whatevers anymore. This is 2026. Right. I'm old. Anyway.

SPEAKER_05 59:49

So we're gonna also jump around. Another person says, and going along the same note, is that the cheesy dialogue seems appropriate for comics without it seeming forced or overly sappy, and his focus on mythology adds a lot of depth to the characters. I really like his pre-MJ Venom run.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

See, like it and it was okay, but it it it fell off, right? Like, what like how can you I don't know. I'm just my question is like, how can you like that story when halfway through it literally just becomes nothing? Right. Right? Like the the whole point of that story was Eddie was stuck in a time loop in this garden, this symbiotic garden, and he was destined to become like there's all these other symbiotes, right? They're they're they're all other king and blacks, and all these other king and blacks are different points of Eddie from different points of time. So you have you have um Bedlam, which is a point of Eddie from his like all rage, right? Like he was all about killing Spider-Man. That's that point of Eddie, and then there's like there's um I don't remember the other one's names, but like all these different Eddie's from different points of his time. Okay. And the main premise was that Eddie is going to slowly, even like no matter what he does, he is slowly evolving to Bedlam, then he's slowly evolving to this guy, then he's slowly evolving to this guy, and then finally he's gonna end as Meridius because Meridius was also Eddie Brock.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:09

And where this gets messed up was in is in Dark Web. Because in the middle of Dark Web, one of the other symbiotes was like, Hey, you do know that like you can phase to a different symbiote from like a different point of like a different realm, right? And he's like, Oh, and then he pulled gets he pulls out of the time loop right there. Like the it's like, okay, well, the whole thing that you've been setting up and you've been like, because that's why I was I I was okay with the fact that we were seeing those same scenes again, because we were seeing it like it would show a big scene with all of the venom characters in it. Okay, and like something would happen with one of them, or like one would panic, and then Bedlam would try to kill that one or something. But then as Eddie was evolving, you were seeing those same scenes as him as the character because he's slowly evolving in this time loop. Okay, I see. And that's why I was okay with it because I was like, okay, we're gonna see it again and again because it's a time loop. Right. But but then when it just he he teleports off to some weird like ochre land or something, and whatever. What are you doing in my swamp? Yeah, well, what are you doing? Yeah, he's in like a little glass jar. And like he like it was like, okay, so the time loop isn't a thing, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:18

Right. And then like that seems like an easy out.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:22

And and Dylan being able to harness some weird symbiote power to become uh codex again. Yeah, because codex was in Donnie Kate's run. Right, that doesn't make sense because Codex is a future version of Dylan. How does he how can he just transform into that? Right. Like he's a symbiote. It's not that's not that's not what that is. And again, it just it it started making me read when I was reading that run. I was like, huh, there's that, what is this? What is that? And then it just got to the point where it was like it was introducing old characters, like it introduced um uh flexo, who was a really old comic book character. He was a robot that was made of flexible metal. Well, Al Uing retconned it that he was actually a symbiote. And the flexible metal was a symbiote, and you know, he had these like he would take out bad guys, but it never showed how he did that in the original books, and in the new books, in the new Venom issues, it showed him eating them. Oh so it was like, oh, he's he's a monster, but it's just desi designed to look like a robot. And that's cool, but again, it's just like who is Flexo? Like, right, I don't think we're old enough, like I'm 24 and I'm not old enough to know who that is.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:31

Right, and I'm gonna be 27 this week.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:33

And you probably don't know either. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:35

I think I've maybe seen a panel somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

Yeah, and it's again, it's like it it goes into that thing of like sure, Al is he's an older guy and he pulls he pulls inspiration from different areas, but it's kind of like those those aren't those aren't really relevant anymore. Right. You know, like it it flexo isn't a character that anybody like he and he came back for a while and became some soldier guy, but like again, it's just it just feels like oh when I was little I read Flexo, so now I have to I I'm gonna play with that. Right. And get all the kids into Flexo, and everybody's like, can we just read about Venom? Like, I don't really care about Flexo the robot. Right. You know, I don't know. It was interesting when it came out.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:13

I did think it was pretty much but then since it didn't really go anywhere and he kind of had a cop out.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

Yeah. Maybe it did. It literally it literally didn't go anywhere. If Flexo was just another character in the story, and then again the book just became Dylan or it became Eddie Brock talking to this weird venom hand that had like five lit fingers, and every time he asked it a question, one of the fingers would go out, and then like then it ended with them entering in it was time for the Venom War, which they had teased a long time ago. Right. And the tease in the free comp book day was literally in the garden, and it looked like Dylan had put a t a symbiote team together to fight Eddie and all the different Eddies to pull him out. That's what it looked like. And um, but this this new story was them in a wrestling arena and they're doing like screwdrivers and like all these weird. I'm not a WWE fan, so I'm not a super I'm not super big into wrestling. So like um but if you do want to listen to people who are into wrestling, go to Real Takes and you'll hear we did a review on uh Santa with muscles and we talked about wrestling and I didn't know what we were talking about the whole time.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:19

Anyway, um Dylan and Eddie are like wrestling, and then they're like, Oh my gosh, it's him!

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

It's it was like and the the wrestling arenas were literally on the side of the arena going, It's Eddie Brock Venom, and it's just like what is happening? What is this? Did Al just go just start watching old WWE videos and go, Oh, let's put this in the book. Like, what? And then the whole deal with the anti carnage thing, right? That's still a like that's the reason why Venom is gold right now. Okay, was because Dylan Brock from the future went, came in and was like, I'm gonna help you, young Dylan. Because my future needs it. And he goes back in time to a book where um Spider Man from like the sixties is fighting Molten Man and he gets Molten Man's blood and then he infuses that with some stuff from Loki to make the Urnak, which again is Carnage spelled backwards, and he shoots venom with it, making him gold. And it's like, what do you and it's like Carnage isn't even the main villain? It's Meridius. Yeah. And then there they bring these zombiotes in. That's just like, what does that have to do with anything? Like they did a cool thing with Lee Price. Like um the symbiote went and or a symbiote went and revived Cletus or not Cletus, um Lee Price. Lee Price's body, and he was like a zombie symbiote, which was cool. And the art was sick. Although art was so awesome. Um but making that an event, it it just felt like Marvel was making him make an event because it was like it was an event, like Venomore was. But again, it was I don't know. I don't I just don't understand. Like the first half was good and it had an idea, but we lost the plot. We lost it. I don't know. So also there's you have a question on here. I just I didn't want to ignore it. Um it said, Divided is crazy. He's Marvel's best writer, other best writer other than Hickman. Well, buddy, I got some news for you. If you if you like old Al Ewing and you like Jonathan Hickman, pick up Ultimate Spider-Man and Venom and have yourself a heyday. Yeah. Because I'm just gonna keep reading my Venom bus of go back to episode one and two. You want to hear our opinions on Jonathan Hickman, go back to episodes one and two where we review Ultimate Spider-Man twice.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:32

Lore loving Paul.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

I actually love my lore. Watch someone's gonna be like, uh well, actually, those text bubbles that Venom says, it actually appears and someone's gonna call me out. It's okay if you do and you know more. Congratulations. I'll put it in the book and we'll whatever.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:49

So, one of the points that I do think is actually kind of worth bringing up is somebody said this. Would it be fair to assume that editorial had a big hand in making MJ Venom and anything that has to do with Spidey in the last couple of years? It seems good writers do really insane things when it comes to that specific cast of characters. And it feels like the case of Heroes in Crisis, where the higher-ups want huge money-grabbing ideas like, oh, what if MJ was Venom? Wouldn't that sell like hotcakes? And force the writers to put them down. I feel like down the line we're gonna hear more behind the scene of why Spidey in particular has been so messy.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:25

I mean, maybe. I I think like um, I definitely think it's a thing of like they're trying to make money, like editorials definitely trying to make money because when All New Venom first came out, the whole premise of that, those first five issues was like, who is Venom? It's either Luke Cage or Madame Mask or Robbie Robertson or Rick Jones, and it's like, okay, none of those characters are related to Venom whatsoever. Maybe, maybe Robbie Robertson. If you like, I was hoping he would be because he's the only one who's like, I could maybe see it. Yeah, but he just works at the Daily Beauty or we're going to see Venom talking to J. Jonah Jameson all day, you know. Um I want pictures of spider.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

No, you want pictures of Venom! You want Venom, we are best, we are the coolest.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

Um, but I don't know. I think I definitely think editorial does, but but that's the thing, man, is editorial shouldn't be telling writers like like I mean, editorial could provide suggestions, right? Right. If a writer's telling a story, an editorial's job really is to be like, okay, well, how does this work? Right. How does like, oh, you're gonna have you're gonna have Null be the king in black and you're gonna have him wield the necrosword. Where does he get the necrosword from? Because uh uh what's his name and Thor had it? Gore Gore, yeah, Gore had it, and so how does he get it? Well, actually, he had it first and Gore took it from him. Like, you know what I mean? Like the it it's editorial should be asking questions and the writers should be writing. The editorial shouldn't say, we need to do this or we need to do something like this, we need to do that. You know, the editorial should be guiding the writers to write a better story and make sure everything is accurate because comic fans are gonna point it out. Yeah, comic fans are gonna be like, Well, hey, that's not accurate. You know, I'm actually, you know, right. We do that, we just do. We can't help it because we've been reading everything. They should just hire all of us, is what I'm saying. But um, yeah, hi, hey Marvel, um, you want a good Venom book? Hire me. Please. I will fix it. I promise. I've already known how I would do it. I can fix her. Yeah, I can fix her. I literally can fix her. Um but actually I'd probably break her. Um anyway. Um, but like um, I definitely think that's the case. I definitely think that's what they're doing when they're making those decisions because they're doing like the they're doing the bait of like, okay, like everybody wants to know who Venom is, so everybody's now interested. And people are picking up the book because they want to know who it is. Because a lot of people wanted it to be Luke Cage. Right. You know, which I think is okay, but what does he have to do with Venom? Especially after everything Donnie did, right? Like how why where what is that going to happen?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:02

And isn't Luke Cage currently the mayor of New York City in the comics?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:05

He is. I think he is. I think he still is. I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:07

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

Um, which I guess would have been cool, but I don't I don't know. I just like but they knocked him off right there first. Like he was the in the first issue, they were like, Oh, but it's not Luke Cage, you know. Or I think so. It was either in the first or the second. No, the first was it wasn't Luke Cage, the second, it wasn't Madame Mask, the third, it wasn't Rick Jones, and it was down to Robbie and MJ or Robbie and maybe a possible fifth person, and then you find out it's MJ. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:33

Um so really uh it seems like this series is based on gimmicks. It it feels like it. What we can sell, what can we market, and that goes with this person who said he killed Paul and dunked on him before he did it, so he gets a pass. But really Sure. Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

I mean, but I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:53

But even with like killing Paul, it f it's it's a gimmick. Right. Because you we want you to we're gonna do these big events, they're gonna get spoiled in advance. So you will come and buy this book and people will talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:05

Yeah, and I literally like there like Who is Venom? That was the first gimmick, right? It's Mary Jane, that's the second gimmick. The third gimmick was um, oh, or well, uh, oh my gosh, MJ and Paul broke up. Right. They're breaking up. Okay. The fourth gimmick, um someone's back, null is back, he's returned. And it literally just was a three-page teaser at the end of an issue that literally went nowhere. Right. Um, or it led to the null book, which I haven't I've been meaning to read it to actually review it. Um I I might just wait till it's over because we're one issue away from it being completely over. Okay, so I might just read all five. It's five issues, so I might read them all and then just do a whole review of the whole thing. Yeah, um, but like null was coming back, and like I I was getting excited and I thought they were gonna announce Donnie Cates was coming back, and I was literally please, please fix this. Yeah, but yeah, and it's actually his most negatively reviewed book out of the series was 250 because that was the one that had Null coming back because everybody's like, Oh, okay, so you're literally just copying Marvel Rivals and you brought him back for like three pages. Right. Cool, like that was a big like it was it's it's clickbait, right? Yeah, that's that's what this series seems like. And then the was I on four or five?

SPEAKER_05 1:13:16

I think you were on four.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:17

Okay, five. The fifth gimmick was the 260 or 252 uh Spider-Man look. Oh, well, Venom is now rocking the Spider-Man look, which was so dumb, it made no sense because originally, which actually Web of Venom came out this week, which uh we have a new host for that version of Venom and it's freaking boomerang.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:36

Just in time for brand new days.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:38

Yeah, hey, we gotta pick a new character. Hey, who who's in the barrel of the characters we don't use? Pick just just cover your eyes and pick one, you know. Um but I think the design looks cool, but the whole premise of that Spider-Man Venom was supposed to be a Secret Wars thing, right? Where it was a it was a version of uh it was a version of Peter Parker from an alternate reality that bonded with Venom. It was actually Peter Peter Brock is his name. Okay. Um or Eddie, no, it's Eddie Parker. I think it's Eddie Parker. Um and he bonds with a symbiote that looks like the Spider-Man suit, and he is this version of Venom. Okay. Which I think that's a cool concept. That's a cool concept. But you've literally you introduced it at the end of a Venom verse book or at the end of a book, and then or no, it was the end of 252. Okay. They introduced it for like a short story, and then every time you see him again, it's either I guess now it's gonna be boomerang. Right. But then Al liked the idea so much that he put it in the main run and made MJ look like Spider-Man for one issue, right? For for two issues, and then the the issue after that, it literally goes back without even asking anything about it. It was so stupid because when it it it was awful because even that version of Venom called himself Spider-Man. He he lands behind Doc Ock, because Doc Ock is the main villain of those books, and he goes, uh Doc Ock goes, Who are you? And like the sun is behind him, so you can't see him, it's just a silhouette. And then Venom goes, Who am I? You sure you want to know? Oh my gosh. Which if you are if you watch Spider-Man with Toby McGuire in it, that's literally a line in the movie. Um, and then he reveals himself to be a Spider-Man Venom, and he says, I'm Spider-Man. And I'm like, What is this garbage? What are y'all doing? So that was the fifth gimmick. The sixth gimmick was um let's see. Well they had, you know, they were doing Death Spiral. Um I guess Paul's Death is Death Spiral being a crossover between Carnage, Venom, and and Spider-Man. Um But the I guess the big thi the sixth gimmick is uh Paul's death. Right. And that leads us to future stuff, which we got Queen in Black coming. Right. I think that's actually coming after Death Spiral, where we have Hella, who is the Queen in Black, and she's just gonna do what Noel did again, and then hopefully Al will say, I'm done, and leave the book. I'm hoping that's how this is. But what I'm not looking forward to with this book is they're doing a blind bag release for it, which I don't like. Well, that's a that's another gimmick. And it's yeah, it literally, yeah, it's a gimmick. It's hey, buy a blind bag, see what cover you get. Yeah, it's like I like to just buy my covers. I don't want to do a blind bag. I want cover A because Ryan Stegman drew it, and that's all I want. But now I'm gonna have to buy a blind bag, and I'm probably gonna get Scotty Young and be like, oh, we can be Ryan Stegman. No disrespect to Scotty Young. No disrespect to Scotty, yeah. But I've met him a couple times. He's cool. But um, but yeah, I just it's it's gimmicks, it's all gimmicks. This this whole thing is like it's it's gimmick after gimmick to get people to buy it, and people are finally at this point where they're just like, I don't care, I'm done. Like, I just want this book to be good. Because again, Venom, like uh Donnie Cate's Venom, it had two events. It had absolute carnage, which wasn't supposed to be an event, it was supposed to just be like a self-contained story, yeah. And Marvel wanted it to be a bigger thing, which was cool. Um, but they had that, and then like King and Black was supposed to be the big event, right? Which makes sense because it takes place all over the world, right? So, like, that's how an event's supposed to be. That's how civil war was, that's how King and Black is, that's how like other things were supposed to, you know, like it's not an event, isn't just like, oh, we need to do an event two times a year to sell books, you know. We need to do it to like because it's meaningful to the story, right? Because that's what sells. Yes, yeah, yes. So there's that opinion. There's that question. Question number two.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:18

Yeah. So I I'll we'll wrap up our out you and conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:22

Yeah, sorry, I've I've I've carried along for probably over an hour.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:25

No, it's all right. So we'll wrap it up with one last comment. And this is one that I really wanted you to reply to because this is, I think, something you might agree with, and you can kind of flesh out your thoughts a little bit more. So somebody said, So, how did she, MJ, get over her trauma here? She bonded with the symbio and just accepted it. And when they finally talked only for one issue over their problems, turns out she's more mad at Eddie than the symbiote, even though she would know what Eddie has been through. She would sympathize as well. So the trauma was more ignored to get the plot along. And funny, you want to act like you know character development when editorial has been ruining MJ's character for nearly 20 years. But hey, what would I know? I just read comics.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:06

You are correct. You are very correct, because that's literally that's my thing, right? And that's something that was in this new issue of uh Amazing Spider-Man, which was the Death Spiral Part 7. Was that MJ and Eddie have this conversation because Eddie's like, I guess, almost dying in the hospital because he unbonded with Carnage, because that's how that works now. Okay, and literally MJ's like, like, you're you're always trying to better yourself and you keep sucking, like, do better. And then she gets the suit back on and she says, We're leaving you, and then they walk away. Her like venom, then it has venom. And and that's that's literally my point, right? You have MJ, and this is where this could be interesting. MJ, who has such trauma with this character. She made Peter throw the black suit out, right? Because she the fake black costume that um she that black cat black cat made it for him, I think. I think so. Um, she made him throw it out after hit the first fight with Venom because who was the first person Venom ran into? MJ. MJ was the first person in comic books to see Venom.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:04

I think before us, right? Like, so right there you have this immense trauma with this character because she he now now Spider-Man's villains are attacking in the home. Right. Um, Venom has no effect on Spider-Man's spider sense, so that's scary. And like it's terrifying. It's literally an image of her boyfriend with a mouth and teeth and a tongue. Right. Like that's terrifying. And she has all this trauma. Anytime they were married at the point, so it's her husband. They were married. It was her husband. You're right. And um, like you you've got that. You had 800, right? There was that point in 800 where Venom came to save Mary Jane, and then Mary Jane was like freaking out because she hates the symbiote. Right, right. And then like Venom gives the suit to Peter to go fight Red Goblin. And um, you know, even MJ's like, I don't know if you should be bonding with that. Like, she hates the symbiote. Right. So the fact that she is forced to bond with it, right? Here's the first thing I would have done is MJ is a very attractive character. Her whole premise is that she's hot and she knows it, and like she no one can put their hands on her, right? Like, she makes her decision, she's a confident woman, she's she's powerful, hot, and strong, right? Immediately strip that from her. When she has to be bonded with an alien that lives inside of her, give her this major like body dysmorphia, right? Right, like she don't feel like she's hot or powerful anymore, right? Take that away from her. She doesn't have any privacy. They make a joke out about it in the one of the first all new venom issues that um Paul, whenever Paul finds out that she's Venom, he's like, Is this why we haven't like been doing things in the bedroom anymore? And she's like, Yeah, because you know, I've got this inside of me. You know, like this, there's someone else in my head. Right. That's why and and it's it's a joke. Right. But in reality, it's like if you can't be romantic with your partner, that's a huge problem. Right. You know what I mean? Now imagine like she can't be romantic with Paul, she can't, she doesn't feel good about how she looks, she doesn't feel good about how she walks, like everything about her is just ruined.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:05

And and that's what this book should be. It should be like examining trauma. That would be the theme of the book. Yeah. Is like, how does somebody who is experiencing who has experienced severe trauma now have to live with something who is always attached to you?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:24

And it can talk in her head anytime it wants. It's say whatever it wants. She has no, she doesn't even have privacy anymore. Right, right. She can't even take a relaxing bath without the symbiote just talking to her constantly. So she is she is in the most uncomfortable place she could ever be in.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:39

But they joke about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:40

And they joke about it. There's no character development. It and like, what if the symbiote fed on that?

SPEAKER_05 1:21:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:45

Right? All that negative emotion that's now building up in MJ. What it like, where's that? Why don't we see that? Paul dying shouldn't like, well, first of all, then breaking up should not be this amazing thing. Right. It should be traumatic.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:59

If even if you see that panel of them breaking up, there's the sun's like children.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:03

Yeah, the sun's coming through and it's like this amazing, like moment. And it's like that shouldn't be the case. They're breaking up. Yeah, everybody's been through a breakup, and it doesn't look like that. You know, and like it like if anything, Paul should have broken up, like if she's having these negative things, right? Paul should have broke up with her because he's like, Who are you?

unknown 1:22:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:24

Right? Make Paul a douchebag. Be like, hey, you won't sleep with me, you you're not like dressing hot anymore. I don't want this. Right. And dip. Yeah. Right there solves the Paul problem. Yeah. And like, you know, and I just I think that there's so many amazing things that there could have been with MJ being Venom. Like, that is an interesting thing to try, and that is an interesting story to tell, but there's nothing here. She's just Venom. She has no nothing, there's no problem with it. She's she's just a boss queen who's got an alien on her and she's just having a good time. Yeah. Like, there it's just, I don't know. Like, and imagine the symbiote. The symbiote knows Peter. Right. Like, imagine that in her head. Like, like, if she kisses Paul, she's like, Oh, do you think Peter would like this? Right. You know what I mean? Like, no one wants to hear that, right? I don't know. It's just like Al missed so many opportunities with this decision. And like, this could have been amazing, but this isn't a Venom book anymore. Venom is not Venom. This is this is the the hey, we've got all the people from Spider-Man that nobody likes. We got to do something with them. Well, Venom's whatever. Let's just throw them in that book and we'll that'll be their book. Right. Because no one's a fan of this dynamic of all these things, right? No one's a fan of Venom being whatever it is with straight teeth that are nice and not pointy. No one's a fan of the gold look. No one's a fan of MJ being Venom. I mean, I'm sure there's some people out there, but it there's nothing interesting. There's no sugar character development. There's no character development. There's nothing. It's it's this is like the Ray Skywalker syndrome where she's just perfect and she knows like how does she know how to control it? Right. Like the symbiote should be walking all over with her because she don't know what she's doing.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:02

That has a that has a specific term for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:05

Uh uh the oh, I know what you're thinking. Um the uh oh my gosh. Uh isn't it Daisy something? No, I know what you're thinking. It's um Mary Sue. Mary Sue the Mary Sue effect where right where it's like she's perfect and there's there nothing needs to happen. Yeah, like character, like we've never seen MJ go through that. Let's see that, let's explore that. Like, and I and I'm not saying like I know body dysmorphia is a huge thing, but like Mary Jane knows how hot she is, she knows what she is in today's world.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:36

How relatable would a story about body dysmorphia be?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:40

Exactly. Uh like imagine all the people reading that being like, I know what that feels like. Oh my gosh, this hot character that I've never I've never related to. She's feeling it. Imagine that. Like, like the the potential is immense and it's huge, and they just they drop the ball on it. I don't know. I I think Al could have done a way better job with this. I do think editorial has their hands tightly wrapped around venom.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:05

Um, but it if Al just like because it feels like he doesn't care about this book. It feels like he's just writing it, he's writing it every week. There's no I there's it's just it's just to make money. Dude, if you're tired, just drop it. Right. Like I would rather the book stop being made than just nothing come out of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:23

You know? Right. There's my full-fledged opinion on Venom. I've vomited all over the table. Our equipment's ruined. Um, you know, like I've Are you sure? I don't know.

Invincible S4, E5 & E6 Review

SPEAKER_05 1:25:36

Well, let's move from something we didn't like to something we do like. Spaghetti. Yes. I love spaghetti. I really love.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:46

Wait, we're we're we're doing wait, we're doing huh.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:54

Yeah, that's what we're talking about today. So the last few episodes have come out. And we w so episode five came out last week. Yes. Episode six this week? Yes. Spoilers, as Paul has been talking about, spaghetti everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:08

There's spaghetti all over the place.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:10

Oh man, episode five.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:11

Oh, it's so good. So I'm gonna go ahead and say, like, my first comments on the show this season was I was like, oh, this this this definitely isn't my favorite season. I don't think it still is. Okay, but these two episodes that have come out have been were really good. These two were probably the best episodes so far out of the season. Okay. I I think they're very close with the um the the the Viltramite story with like um the uh what's the scourge virus, yeah. I think that was a pretty, pretty strong episode. Yes, but these two were oh these two are good.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:43

Now this this episode six was a little bit slower, but I still really enjoyed it. And we are in the Invincible War story arc, which is incredible. So that means that Nolan, Mark, Oliver, they are going with the coalition of planets to fight this Viltramite war. There's only let there's less than 50 pure-blooded Viltramites left in the universe, and they're gonna stop them. Yeah, this is this is a threat. I can't even do the Optimus voice, Peter Cullen's voice.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:12

Um but real quick, when whenever we were programming our soundboard, we'd have a soundboard, that's what all these sounds you're hearing are. Yes. Um are you sure? When we were program when we were programming the soundboard, um the Transformers one of the uh we're now back to the Transformers, it it kicked back up with uh well, I don't know what Transformer it was.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:34

It was an episode from the 80s where they get shrunk down and they're action figures, and Starscrew is getting picked up and it goes, I was like, I was tempted to leave it in just because it was so laughing. No, because poor headphone users and your poor eardrums would be busted, and I didn't want to do that to you because we do want you to continue to listen to the show. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

Yeah, you can't do that without your ears. Yes. So but yes, invincible.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:04

But that's just gonna continue to be a thing. I hope you know that. So, anyways, we were talking about that and episode five. So they're all going, and they get uh surprised by three Viltramites, one of them being Conquest.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:27

Conquest is back. He Oh, yeah, because freaking Cecil, who is dead. Yes, like he's cooked next time Mark comes back to Earth.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:34

Sorry, Seasalt.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:35

Yeah, Cecult.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:36

Seasalt! Seasalt.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:37

We should make that a move.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:39

Season! Uh but, anyways, so he let Conquest heal up, and Conquest came back. And funny story, I'm doing a post in a couple weeks about fun facts about Invincible. And one of those fun facts about Invincible is that Robert Kirkman loved the design of Conquest so much that Conquest was supposed to die in that original fight with Mark. Oh wow. But he loved the design so much he's like, I'm gonna bring him back.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:03

That's cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:03

So he brought him back for this fight. And we see them, we see everybody fighting. Oliver is he's kind of struggling in space because he's never really had to first fly in space. The first half of the episode is is kind of slow. It's a little, they're building up, and then it just explodes, and the animation like changes like that. You can see it the moment that Conquest enters in.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:29

Yes, yeah. The the production value. Yeah. I was thinking of the shot of Oliver, and then it's just boom, like he's about to dunk on them.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:37

So Mark says he's gonna he's gonna kill Conquest and he goes for the throat.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:44

He does not do the Thor thing, he goes straight for the head.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:48

And Mark is holding on to his throat while he is just taking a beating from Conquest. And man, this whole fight is awesome. It's one of the coolest fights I think I've ever seen in the Vince Gets.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:59

It's uh that that's something really quick that Robert Kirkman does so well. Yes, is he set up a you know this when when you see Conquest, you know that like, oh my gosh, like you tense up because you know how hard he is to beat. Yes. So even when he comes back again in this fight, you're just like immediately you're like, oh my gosh, like look what he did last time. Like, what's he gonna do now?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:23

How is Mark gonna win this? Yeah, and I told you because we we talked after that.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:27

We did, we did. I called you and I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:28

And you're like, dude, spaghetti. Funny enough, uh, me and Gabriella, my wife, had Italian the next day. So that's all I can think about. I did not order spaghetti game. But um, so when we were talking on the phone, you're that's what you said. You said when Conquest shows up, yeah, something big is ha about to happen. And I said, just wait till Thrag.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:53

You did say that. And I again I haven't read the books, and I've not. I'm I'm just I'm all about the show. I'm just watching the show. I don't want to read the books until like if I if I get through the show and it's over, then I'll read the books. Right, right. But I'm yeah, I'm Thrag is pretty in he's intense already.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:07

Yes, already.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:08

Yeah, he's got a he's got a hard presence, but still to me, to me, who hasn't read this, still not as big as Conquest. Conquest, anytime you see Conquest, it's almost just like you you just you can't breathe because you're like, oh shoot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:22

Uh speaking of not being able to breathe, so Mark is holding on to his throat and he is taking a beating like a champ. And dude, I am locked in. Yeah, you're you're locked into that fight because it just shows the raw power of the Viltermites. Yes. And and Mark is just he is taking it like a champ, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:39

Yeah, and he's he's not letting go of the throat. He says, You will never breathe again, is what he says. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:44

Oh man, it's so sick. And he just so he ends up choking him out. Yes. And right as Conquest is about to die, he does the good old Viltermite chop.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:56

Yep, the Viltermite karate hand straight through Mark's stomach.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:01

Yep. And he just pulls out his intestines. And man, it is hard to watch. Even Robert Kirkman, I don't know if you've seen that. Robert Kirkman and the production team said that is still for them the hardest scene to watch.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:13

Because it doesn't stop. Like Mark, like, I think eventually, like, Mark, he's getting so much that uh um conquest falls back. Right. And even then, like, he's just pulling his intestines out. Like, and you see it, you see it from the from the back. So you see his arms like stretching out to the side, holding intestines, and you're just like, oh my gosh. And and then it shows like these close-ups and of of just he's not stopping. Right. And he's slowing down. Yeah. Right. He's definitely like he's he's passing out, but even then he's it's slower.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:45

Yeah, and it's just it hurts because um Stephen Ewan, the voice actor for Mark, it's so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:51

He does such a good job because his his his moans are just so like they're high pitched. Like he's he's his he doesn't like what what else do you sound like when you're getting your intestines? Right. I saw a clip on Instagram that said they actually pulled his intestines out for that, for that, for that audio. Like they had to actually pull his intestines out in the recording studio.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:12

It was just um so for Walking Dead fans, I've never watched Walking Dead, but I have I watched a little bit. It's okay, yeah. It's long. So Jeffrey Dean Morgan plays one of the bad guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:24

He plays Negan.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:26

And he kills Stephen Ewan's character. Yep. And so I've seen a lot of people say, and he apparently kills him pretty brutally, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:32

Yeah, he he has a baseball bat full of nails and he he bashes his head in right in front of his his wife. Oh man. Yeah, and they're all like on their knees, like with their hands tied, watching this happen.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:42

So I saw that this was payback.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:44

This was this was Glenn's payback.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:46

Yeah, this was Glenn's payback.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:47

Um, but it it cost him. Yeah. And and that's how the episode ends. Mark is laying there with his intestines ripped out, saying, Yeah. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:55

Yeah. He's like his has his hands up and he's shaking. And he like that's the and that's the shittiest way to end, man. Yes. Like, because I'm sitting there like, what just happened? Like, I'm like, how, like, this is it.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:08

Like, he's dead. And you are so dead. It was the it's like a crazy feeling because you are tense. You are so tense, yeah. Like, I'm locked in, you don't even know what's happening around you because that episode was just so you were so pulled in.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:23

Yeah. And you feel it, and like feel it in your body. Yeah, like because I remember when I watched it, like, I couldn't look away. Yeah. And I I hated that I had to watch it. Right. Because like I was dis I like thinking back about it, just how disgusted I felt, but I couldn't stop watching. Right. Because you're like, what is happening like, is he gonna die? Is Conquest gonna die? Because if he lets go for a second, it's over. Like he's dead, and Conquest wins, and Conquest is gonna go back and kill Eve, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:34:50

So Mark Such a good episode. But but Conquest dies. Conquest does die. Episode six comes out today.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:57

And Nolan buries him. That's one of the first things he shows that he buries him. And Oliver's like, why would you even do that? It's like he was a good Vilcher Might. You know, he was loyal. So, you know, he deserves a he deserves a burial. And even I'm sitting here like, man, screw you, Nolan. Like, fuck you. Like, it's not, you know, like, no, no, he doesn't deserve a burial. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:16

You know, he's an awful dude. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:18

Which and so you see throughout the episode Mark or Nolan and Oliver have to bond.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:24

Yes. They're stuck on this planet until Invincible. Uh I'm not gonna push the button again. I was about to, um, until Invincible heals. Right. And um, which this is like this is me being like, that wouldn't actually happen, but like I I can't imagine like how he's healing. Yeah. His intestines were ripped out. Like, brother's never gonna poop normally again. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 1:35:45

I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:49

Like, like did Nolan just put him back and be like, okay. Like, I don't know, like, this is a this is actually a real story that I had heard that there was a uh kid who um he f the I don't know what happened, but he had somehow fallen on a lawnmower blade and it it it actually cut him open and all of that happened to him. Um and his mom tried to save him by putting his intestines back in his body and he healed, but he got major infections from like the outside stuff being a part, like so. I guess it's a it's possible to survive that, but like I could I kept thinking about that story because I had heard it's a real thing that had happened.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:27

So like I kept thinking back to that story of like how you know he got infected and whatever, and I'm like, how is Mark just like I think those those Viltramite healing factor, the the their the way they're just built is just different, yeah. Um and Nolan seems to know a lot. He does, yeah, and and being able to kind of heal Viltramite wounds. So that's what I think that was probably very important that he used his cape to wrap up Mark's wound to try to allow him to heal to keep it off. I never realized that that was his cape. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:02

I see that. I see it, yeah. Okay. And uh I thought he bled a crap ton, but also like where would they have bandage out there? Yeah, no, I get it.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:10

So they have to bond while Invincible heals, and meanwhile, the war continues. The Viltramite war continues, and we see a lot of fighting happening. We see Alan and Space Rider and Tech Jacket go to war against some Viltramites. Uh, but the big thing is that Mark and that Oliver, I keep doing that. Yeah, Oliver and Nolan are bond, and they kind of rebuild that relationship. There's a kind of a funny moment where Oliver is talking about a time when their mom, Debbie, took them to a restaurant and he saw a beautiful blue lobster, and it just made him uh sizzling inside, and Nolan's like, uh uh sizzling. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Foreshadowing. Yeah. In case you've not read Invincible. Yeah. I won't say anything else.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:03

I know what you're talking about. Yeah. I I unfortunately know about that.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:06

So, anyways, uh, so that happens, and then Invincible gets better. He they then go fight the war.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:15

Well, he Invincible wakes up and they come back and he's gone. Yes. And the first thing Invincible did was because you know, Nolan and uh Nolan and Oliver were out getting food that or fishing or whatever, that um uh Mark thought that he didn't kill uh he didn't think he killed him with Conquest. And he thought that he had died or whatever, and that Conquest killed his parents killed Nolan and Oliver. So he walks back over to where he's buried and he just stands there and looks at it. And I'm surprised he didn't like my expectation was he's gonna pick up one of them rocks and just drop it on the grave. Like I thought he was gonna make sure he's dead. Right. Like, because I mean what do you do after that, right? Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:56

Um so he goes there and they they learn that he's okay. He grow Invincible has grown a beard. Yeah. Uh kind of reminds me of my beard, I guess. You you have a nice beard, my bear bomb beard's. You got you got good goatee going. It's good, it looks real good. Uh well, anyways, uh, so they go to the planet, the main planet, yeah, for the coalition of planets. Thrag and the Viltramites attack.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:19

And they have to fend off the attack. They end up destroying the main ship, and Thrag and his remaining Viltramites retreat back to Viltram. Uh they kind of stop the war. That was an intense scene, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:32

That was really intense scene.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:33

Yeah, it felt like a war. And, you know, where's my air support? You know, come on, come on.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:38

And uh that was good. Those are good moments. Uh and the and the episode ends with Thaddeus, aka Optimus Prime, aka Peter Colen, yeah, saying that the only way to end this war is to go to Viltrum and to stop them before they can regroup. Yeah. And then the episode ends. Um, but I will say the post-credit scene, they got me on this one.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:01

The post-credit scene is so good.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:03

They're playing dramatic music and they go back to the burial of conquest and they're zooming in.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:09

And it I was watching it and I was like, oh my gosh, he's still freaking alive. They do like a super big close-up, like you're waiting for like the rock to crash.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:15

That music is playing, and and then it just zooms out, and it's like, yeah, it zooms out and it's just nothing, no sound.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:22

It's like, yep, he's dead. We got you. And I was like, oh, they got me. They got me too. I was like, because I was thinking, I was like, they're not gonna I think about this stuff in like a film perspective. I'm like, oh, like they're not gonna, like, he's definitely coming back, like he's alive. Like that that would be a that they would not psych me out here. Yeah, and then they literally did it right after, and I was like, that's funny. They had us in the first half a lot. Yeah, they had me. You got me. I was like, oh my god, brother, you should have dropped a rock on him, you should have ripped him in half, you should have killed him, you should have made sure he was in pieces all over the galaxy.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:52

I think I would agree with you. These last two episodes are definitely some of my favorites, especially I forget that I I I just try to pretend that episode where they were in hell just didn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:02

I I still didn't hate that, you know. Like, the more I think about it, the more I'm like, I don't like it. Even looking back, like it it didn't, you know, especially because I haven't read it, it didn't bother me. It did feel like a lot of a scene that, like, you know, looking I because I you showed me that issue and you just showed me that it doesn't happen at all. Right. And like I don't know. To me, it didn't bother me. It felt like it was an extra thing that just was like, eh, like what did we even need this for? Yes. Um, because this is the stuff you want to see, right? Like I want to see them fighting the Viltramites. I I want to see, you know, Nolan and like Nolan trying to rebuild his connection with like the world, you know. Because he, you know, uh there was something we we missed was that you know, he when he was talking, he went to see Debbie again and he had said, like, oh, like uh, because uh what was Oliver's mom's name?

SPEAKER_05 1:41:49

Um gosh, I can only think of the planet, Thraxia. Uh I cannot think of her name. It starts anyways, his bug mom.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:57

His bug mom.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:58

His bug mom. Oliver's mom's.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:59

And so hang on, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Maria. Maria. Okay. Maria, I don't know. Uh Maria. And she literally says, like, he says, like, ah, Maria was just like an accident. Like, that should have never happened to Debbie. And Oliver revealed to Nolan, like, hey, I was there. I heard you say all that. Do you really not care about my mom?

SPEAKER_04 1:42:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:19

Because yeah, that's his mom. Right. Like that's still, you know, like that's still a big thing for this character. And Nolan is like, I just he said, I I just was trying to say the right thing to Debbie is what I was trying to do. He's like, I didn't mean, you know, and Nolan's continuously like having these, you know, he's continuously having he's trying to rebuild to do better. Yeah, he's trying to rebuild his connection with society. And and when he does that, it just no one will reject him. There's even that scene where he meets with the costume, costume guy, and he says, like, um I only I only make costumes for heroes. And that sucks. Like it it you you can't help but like because I'm rewatching it with my girlfriend, you know, she's not seen Invincible, so she's I'm rewatching it with her. And I'm rewatching season one, and I'm just like, I can't. It's it's I'm remembering how much I hated this guy. Yeah. And looking at these new episodes, I'm like, he's so cool though. Like he's he's he's he because he mentioned like on their planet anthraxia, they forgive very easily. Right. Because they don't because their lifespans are so short. They don't look in the past, they only look on the future. Right. And I think that was a really cool thing of like, ah, like that's that's wow. You know, like I guess that looks at us as a civilization as like, oh, we really look back on the past a lot. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:36

But overall, very good episodes. I thought these were really good episodes.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:39

I think these are the best out of the season. I think um I'm excited for what's to come. I know we've got what, two more episodes left? Two more episodes. So I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:46

We're gonna have a big week in two weeks because in two weeks will be the finale and the next Superman Spider-Man crossover.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:53

It will be, yes. And then I think is next week Absolute Batman.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:57

I think Absolute Batman is next week.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:59

I think it is next week, yeah. Which, real quick, do we want to talk about the reveal? They revealed the Absolute Batman 20 cover. Um it was redacted previously. It was the Robin R. Yep, yeah. Um, and there are Robin mechs. They're Rob, there's well, there's three Robins on the ground and one in like uh like a looks like almost like a medical mech outfit, and then there's a big one.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:21

Um looks straight out of Pacific Room, looks very Pacific Room.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:24

Yeah. Um not what I expected, but definitely not what I expected.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:28

Yeah, I expected the the Teen Titans go Robin where he's super buffed.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:35

I've seen that I've seen that the the picture of him just like dude, absolute Batman don't stand a chance. Like absolute, absolute jokers scared of him.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:44

Yeah. The the mechs is are definitely not what I expected. I think they have potential. I can honestly say that of all the reveals so far, the one that kind of interests me the least is the absolute robins. I'll say that too.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:00

I I agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:01

Um maybe I I didn't expect Robin to be like a monster or anything, but I did not expect mechs. It kind of feels almost off.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:11

It feels out of place just a little bit. Yeah. Now again, I'll give it a chance. Yeah, we gotta give it a chance.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:15

Everything else has been great, so there's probably a reason why Scott Snyder decided to do this. Um, so I I I'm I'm in for the long haul. So whatever he wants to do, I'm I'm I'm game. Yeah. He almost certainly has a good reason for doing this. Yeah. Um, which again, how are you gonna fight the demon joker if you don't have a mech a giant robot?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:37

You might have to have a mech to fight a demon joker, but honestly, I don't even know if that's enough. I will I'm ready for that fight. I'm ready for that fight so bad. Yeah. Pray. Yeah. Pray that you're you're gonna survive. Um, yeah, I think that's really everything. That's all we've got this week. Sorry I got on a big venom rant there. That's exactly what we that's that's the purpose of this episode. I did I I called Clayton a couple days ago and I was like, I think it's finally time to to to uh voice my opinions on Venom and how much I hate this new stuff. And he was like, okay, let's go for it. Let's do it. Um, but next week, I think what we have next. We have uh Absolute Batman next week and Invincible. Yeah, we'll have another episode of Invincible and then I think another Death Spiral issue, which I might wait and cover all of those when it's finished because we've got I think uh two more issues until it's done, so I might just wait it out. Um I might I don't know. A lot didn't happen in this issue that came out this week. So but but yeah, thank you guys so much for listening.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:36

Uh I'm Clayton.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:37

I'm Paul, and you're listening to the