Marvel Just Venomized Superman and it's INSANE

This week on Beyond the Pull List, things get absolutely wild!

We kick things off with our weekly pulls, which includes Clayton dropping Captain America, reacting to Superman #37, and Paul's continuing frustration with the Spider-man/Venom offices. 

But then… it happens.

Spider-Man meets Superman and we get VENOMIZED SUPERMAN!

So, of course, we had to talk about it!

From there, we rank the best Spider-Man/Superman crossover stories, break down the new Clayface trailer, and debate why it might be one of the most anticipated projects of the year (at least for Paul).

We also talk:

• Rumors about the upcoming Spider-Man: Brand New Day film
• Disney layoffs and AI in entertainment
• Why AI can be a tool but not a replacement 
• And the emotional Invincible Season 4 finale

This episode is honestly one of our most fun yet.

So grab your snacks and a Mountain Dew because this is Beyond the Pull List!

Follow us on Instagram: @Comic_Nation1776

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hello everybody. My name is Paul. And I'm Clayton. And you're listening to Beyond the Pull List.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hey, episode 6, man.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

We are very excited about this episode. You were you were dying to get to my house to record.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

I was.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

That's what I've heard.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

I was telling Paul this morning I did not go to bed until 1 a.m. And so then I woke up for work at 5:30 and I am hyped and full of energy. I like torpedo dive onto the bed this morning. And my wife Gabriella is like, Why do you have so much energy this morning? Like, what? What are you doing? And I'm like, Well, I didn't go to bed till one o'clock, and she's like looking at me. And then I said, uh, I said, it's podcast recording day. And she rolled her eyes. I said, and I woke up next to you.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

I love that. You said that to me, and I started wheezing early. I thought that was so funny. Um, we have a huge week. We do have a big week. This turned out to be a bigger week than expected because we have comic book stuff, but we've also got some cool movie stuff that got announced.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

And some not some cool movie stuff happening too.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yeah, and some not cool stuff happening. So we we've got a little bit of both, and we've got our season finale of Invincible, so that's gonna be really cool to get into. Um, so this is gonna be a long episode. So get your road snacks, get your Mountain Dew. Mountain Dew. Wait. I got mine. I cracked it open. You'll hear that in uh something coming up, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

But uh we also want to take a quick moment before we really get started, and we want to say first off, thank you to everybody who listens, yes, everybody who downloads, everybody who comments, likes, everything. We really, really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah, every episode that we drop is getting bigger and bigger. More people are listening, more people are downloading, more people are commenting. Thank you guys so much for growing for this super small thing that we just decided to start, and we just did it because we were bored and we just thought it'd be fun, and it is blowing up. So thank you guys so much for listening. Thank you guys for continuing to listen and please stick with us because we're we're this ain't this ain't slowing down. You know, we're having a good time, and we're just trying to put more and more into every episode that we do. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

So, one of the things that we also want to thank you for is that if you're not already, please go follow us on Instagram at Comic Nation1776. We're posting all sorts of stuff related to the podcast things we talk about, and we have had some big things happen.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

We have.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

We have had uh let's just start off with none of these are small by any means, but uh let's just start off with some smaller and big build up. We have Jorge Molina, he's an artist, he liked us and followed us. Yep. Uh we have Jimmy, and I'm I'm apologize if I butcher this is Jimmy Paletti.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Jimmy Palmetti. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Okay, he wrote a lot of Harley Quinn stuff, uh things like that. Pretty big writer. Uh, he he liked us and I think he followed us as well. Patrick Gleason.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

Oh, we love Patrick Gleason.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

We love Patrick Gleason here. Uh huge shout out. I love his Superman. It's oh man, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

I remember when his uh webbed Spider-Man cover came out and everybody was like, Do you have that cover? Do you have that cover? And I remember I just like I bought it just because like I was on Spider-Man just pulling, and I was like, Oh, this is a cool cover, I'll just buy it. And then everybody's like drooling trying to get it. And I don't know if it's still expensive.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

I don't know, but he's he's just an incredible artist. I would say top five artist right now in the industry. Yeah, uh incredible. Um, we have Jesus Abertov. Uh I apologize again if I'm butchering that. You he is a a colorist.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Followed us. That's awesome. That's awesome. Uh, we had, and this is in big relation to what we're gonna talk about today. Yep, we had Brad Meltzer like our post. Brad Meltzer wrote the main story for the super the Spider-Man Superman crossover. The one for Marvel, yes, sir, he did. And that was insane.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

And lastly, we had Tom Bancroft, and he is not comic related, actually, uh, but he is big. He commented on one of our posts and told us to keep up the good work. Hey, awesome! He is the lead animator for Mulan. Yep, Hercules, Aladdin. He worked on Beauty and the Beast. Yep. This huge Disney guy uh worked on Lion King. I mean, that's incredible to have something like that. That was that blew my mind. Yep. Uh so thank you again to all of you who like, subscribe. If you're in the industry, whether you're not in the industry, whether you're just the average Joe just listening, we appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

We also had um one other one uh on our last episode, we had a huge conversation about like our comics about the tank, or is all this stuff about to happen? Just because we wanted to talk about it. Right. And we made a post on it too, and Kyle Holtz actually commented on that poll post, which is I love his, I love his art, man. Uh Carnage Mind Bomb is one of my favorite, that's my favorite single issue ever. So like seeing him comment was like I would like it was so cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

And you were even worried because he he was disagreeing with some of the stuff we said. He disagreed.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

That's totally fine. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Um, and and you were like, is he mad at us? Don't let him be mad. I don't want him to be mad at us.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Yeah, but uh, but yeah, he disagreed, and that's okay. And you know, we we we talked a little bit about it. Yeah, we do welcome that. I think disagreements are are great, and we're gonna disagree a little bit today. Yes, we are because we uh we're when we get into Spider-Man Superman, which is gonna be a minute, we're gonna talk about some of the smaller stuff, uh, but we are gonna do a huge ranking of not only just the Marvel issue, but the Marvel and like all of the all of the stories between Spider-Man Superman and the DC and the Marvel all in one big rank. So we've got that coming. And um, but yeah, thank you guys so much for listening. Thank you comic book uh people for being involved. Um please, please keep keep pitching in. We we love we love it. We call all we call each other all the time talking about like this person followed us and this person liked. So um thank you so much and please please don't don't go don't go away.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

That's that's honestly like one of the hardest things. Uh, if you're thinking about starting a podcast with your best friend in the whole world, like that is one of the hardest things if there's something you want to talk about later, because it's like, well, I gotta save my opinions for the podcast, but I really want to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

There's there's been many moments where I'm like, I want to tell you about this, but I I can't. I actually I read the Spider-Man Superman crossover before he did, and I was like, I want to tell you about this. I can't because y'all know I'm excited, I'm really happy about something.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

So, but first, let's get into our weekly pools, and we have just a few things to talk about this week, and I'm gonna talk about something that kind of hurts my heart a little bit. Yep. So I am a huge Captain America fan. Yes, you are, and I have my personal goal in comics is to collect every Captain America comic from 1968 to uh when they ended the run in the 90s. And I've been collecting Captain America comics for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

But I think today is the day I stop collecting Captain America. Moment of silence. We can't. We can't hold it. We can't. So I am reading Captain America right now by Chipsadarsky. I love Chipsadarsky. Everything he's written has been incredible. I am so bored with Captain America though that I cannot, I can't, I can't continue to buy it. The price right now is$4.99. It's kind of hard to justify that when$5 could go to a lot of other things, especially about to have a baby. Right now, in the story, it it has so much to do with Doctor Doom. They're uh overthrowing uh Doctor Doom's been overthrowed, and now it's this power struggle, and there's these rebels, and the rebels actually aren't really the good guys because they're killing civilians too. Yeah, I'm just really bored with it. Yeah, and so unfortunately it's getting dropped when$5 could be put towards baby things or stuff like that. So uh for the first time since like 2019, I am dropping Captain America.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

And you told me that on the phone, and at first I thought you were dropping Superman, and I was like, because I said, Are you dropping something? And he went, Yeah. And I was like, You're not dropping absolute Batman. Are you went, yeah? And I was like, What are you doing? What is wrong with you? And um so thank goodness he um thank goodness that wasn't the case. But you, my friend, are do you are you have climbed the mountain that I am having trouble climbing, yeah, and I respect you for that. Well thank you. The way you know you are trying to collect Cats in America, the same with me with Venom, and I've been pulling all the books and I don't like them, and I I'm having this hard time telling myself when do I stop? Because I'm spending all this money on something I'm not enjoying, and you are you're you finally hit the stop button, and I'm you're you're making me really reflect.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

The way I put it to you was that you're you're you're buying paper that you're not gonna do anything with.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

And it's just gonna sit there.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

And and that's kind of I'm not interested in the story. I got caught up only for the podcast. But if it wasn't for the podcast, I I wouldn't, I'd I'd be like five issues behind because I've not enjoyed it since they started this arc. I guess that'd be four issues because this is part four, but still. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

And it sucks because I I remember you saying, you know, you love Chip Sidarsky. And when you said he's gonna be riding Cap, like it's gonna get really good. Yeah, like that really sucks. Yeah, that really sucks.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

I'm just I'm just so bored.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yeah. What what about it makes you so bored? Like, what are some of the things?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

I just I just feel like we should move on from this Doctor Doom stuff because the first arc is about it it and I guess this is our problem that we talked about last week too, right? Everything has to tie in now. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Everything that has Doomsday.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Right, right, and everything with this has tied in, even the first arc. But I I I let it slide with the first arc because they were introducing this new character, and it was kind of predictable what they were gonna do with him, but it was still good, it was still very interesting. Uh so the first arc is that there is this guy who basically become the became the Captain America of the modern day.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

And he witnessed 9-11 happen, so he signed up, he became a soldier, he was discharged because he kind of went John Walker and and went a little crazy. And so he's discharged, and then Captain America came back, and and then they have to work together to go into Latviria, and they're kind of overthrowing Doctor Doom. This was supposed to be Captain America's first mission straight out of the ice, and that is kind of interesting because my favorite comic that I've ever purchased is Avengers 4, uh, which is the original Silver Age moment when Captain America comes comes out of the ice. But now we've jumped back to the present day. And so here in the present day, we are telling this story of Latviria is in chaos after the events of One World Under Doom, which I didn't read that event. Um, and here we are, it's like a power struggle, SHIELD is back, and that's a cool idea. I'm glad Shield is back. But I'm just it's just nothing is happening. It it took like three issues for Captain America to find out that the the the rebellion that is coming up, that they're actually really not that good guys because they're killing civilians.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Um, and then here in this issue, uh it's just the moment of them kind of rising up against this rebellion. And um, and then there's this side plot struggle where these shield agents are struggling. Do we go after Captain America or do we join him, or like what do we do? We have orders, blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm just I I just don't really care.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I there is a cool moment, I'll admit, in this issue where Captain America gets on the radio and he's talking to the resistance leader, and his name is Salvation.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

So he's talking to Salvation and he says, I fought Adolf Hitler, I fought the Red Skull, I'm about to fight you. What does that make you?

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

So that's kind of um, but and and Chip Zadarski can write a great Captain America. He did it in the Invaders mini-series that came out uh several years ago.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

I think that was probably 2019, 2018. And so I know he can do a good job. It's just I'm not I'm just not invested.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

I I I maybe it's because we have revolved around Doctor Doom for nine issues. The the solicitations for the issues coming out is that Captain America is gonna get sent to hell and he's gonna find Victor Von Doom in hell. Okay, okay. Yeah. And um I I just I'm just bored with it. And five dollars is gonna be able to go a lot longer. It it's we've just been in Doctor Doom's wheelhouse for so long that it's like, okay, well, let's get out of here and let's go do other Captain America related things.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yeah, yeah. And uh also five$4.99 is about turning into$5.99. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

And you and I were and I I was getting caught up here before we started recording. And you know, this is a 22-issue, this 22-page count.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

And I counted them right there with you. Yeah, yeah, you did. 12 of the pages of this 22-page book is ads. Yep. You're paying more for basically ads than you are getting actual stories.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Yeah, you're getting more ads than story. You're getting, yeah, because it's 22 pages, 12 ads, that's 10 pages of story, which is a yeah. So that really that really sucks. It sucks. That sucks real bad.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

But that's unfortunate news. So that is off the pool list for me.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Dang. Yeah. That's a that's a you know, like I felt like I just watched a casket close. Like, like that's one of the hardest off the pool lists we've had so far.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

That was that was really tough.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Oh so speaking of a book I am actually enjoying uh Superman by Joshua Williamson and Dan Mora. This has been good. This is I did a post a while back about Superboy Prime, and so Superboy Prime, just uh recap real quick, is from our universe, and he has come into the DC universe and he has all the powers of Superman. He was once a villain. Yeah. What are you laughing about?

SPEAKER_02 13:59

I'm just the the the is that the page that that you made me read. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's got that page in it.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So, so I'll I'll explain that in just a moment. And so he comes into our world, he has all the powers of Superman. He had done this before, but he was a villain, so now he's trying to redeem himself. And so one of the things here that he's doing, this is really what stands out in the book, this and one other moment that I'll explain in just a moment. But he works in a comic book shop. And uh there's this really beautiful woman that comes in and they're talking comics. Yeah, and she says, Well, if you ever want to know more, borrow some trades, check out my long boxes. You can come over, come over to my place. And he's like, Why would I do that? I work in a comic book store. Like, oh my brother, this is a generational fumble, my man.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Brother, lock in. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

He just missed me. He's inviting you over to read comics. Are you stupid? Oh man, this this kind of woman only comes around once a generation. Literally, brother, lock in. So, anyways, he goes then and he works with uh Damien, Damien Wayne, and uh he's on a little case with him, and he's like, How did you do it? How did you make people hate you? And then now you have come around to you're one of the most beloved characters. And Damien's like, I don't care what people think of me. We've got just gotta go stop Clayface, which is gonna tie into something we're gonna talk about here later. But um, he's like, I just gotta stop Clayface, and so Superboy Prime helps him out, and eventually Superboy Prime is like, Okay, well, I gotta go, I gotta go start my shift at the comic book store. I don't want to get fired. And Robin's like, you know, just so you know, I actually do care what people think about me. It put it it required a lot of hard work. Um, but you know, I I I really worked on myself, and so that was like a sweet moment. And and especially coming from Damian Wayne, yeah, you know. You see Superboy Prime be like, you know, we just become best friends. Turns out, the generational fumble, the the girl that was beautiful in the comic book store, uh the the issue ends, and she is actually apparently a witch. Oh no, she's evil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

See, so see, he just knows. He just knows he knows how this works.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

I guess so.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

But he's read this issue already.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, he did. So it is it is on the pool list for sure. I am definitely enjoying where they're going. I would like Superman to come back, but after the events of DCKO, he is gonna be out for a little while. He's kind of, I think, uh if I remember correctly, he's like saving the multiverse right now.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

So he's like hold doing all that, and he he had dark side energy. Blah blah blah. This yeah, yeah. Um so he's with Spider-Man. Yeah, yeah, he's with Spider-Man. He's literally with Spider-Man right now. That makes sense. That kind of works out a little bit, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. I didn't think about that. Um, so but I enjoy this. So this is on the pull list for me. Now you have something you really want to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yeah, I can talk about something that doesn't work out. Um I uh so uh I only have one pull list book this week, um, which was uh the Amazing Spider-Man issue 27. Again, the only reason I'm pulling Amazing Spider-Man is just because of the Death Spiral event, because it ties into Venom. And it was a it's a flip-flop back and forth, uh, back and forth story that goes from Venom to Spider-Man, Venom to Spider-Man. We have one more part left. We are at part, what is this? Uh seven, six, seven, no, no, eight. This is part eight. See, I was like, I'm just seeing, I'm just throwing a six, seven joke in this. My rot the the brain in my rot is rotting hard. It even makes sense. This book has got me pissed. Let me tell you, I'm ready to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

So you should have seen him reading it.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

I closed the book and I was like, oh, Clayton, I'm so mad. And he was like, why? And I was like, I'm just I can't tell you.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, so I have no idea what Paul is mad about, but when he was reading it, I wish you could have seen it. I've never seen Paul get that mad reading a comic.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Pretty much the reason why I'm upset is because you know, reading an event like this that also ties into another book means that I have to start picking up an additional book every month. Right. So, because and this is weekly. So literally, for I don't know, I guess I guess eight weeks now, I've just been getting death spiral, which that feels really weird. That feels like that feels like it's not been that long. Um, but um, but they again there's one more part left. It's the um final, it's called the death count issue, which is supposed to be the origin of torment because we finally oh no. Um I got I I'm excited to read it because um the few takeaways from this book is um we start off with Spider Carnage. The Carnage Symbiote has bonded with Spider-Man um because Spider-Man was about to die, right? And the Carnage Symbiote was about to die, and in this new age of symbiote lore that doesn't make sense, the symbiotes have to bond to people so they don't die, and it's stupid. Um and he bonds with Spider-Man, completely takes him over. So Spider-Man is fighting Torment, trying to kill, try just trying to kill him.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

And Carnage is like, I know what you want, Peter. I know deep down what you really want to do. So let's make it happen. He doesn't kill anybody. So before you give me that look and you're like, yeah, he doesn't kill anybody.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Well, I'm also thinking, why would why would Peter want to kill Torment after his last reaction when Paul died?

SPEAKER_02 19:14

He's just like, Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, I kind of like him. He kind of he gets rid of the people we don't like. Um too bad he can't get rid of the writers and editors for legal reasons.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

That is a joke.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but so the story we get spider carnage, and spider carnage is kind of cool. Um he shoots, he has these little carnage spiders crawling on him. Oh, that's cool, and he shoots them at people, and it's like out of the spider's butt is like the web, and that's what connects it to the head. So spiders are like clinging on to uh to venom at one point and to um torment, and they're crawling all over him, and it's really freaky.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Um, really, but it's cool, cool, cool deal. But in the subconscious, you can see Spider-Man fighting Carnage, sort of.

SPEAKER_05 20:00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Um it's weird. He Carnage pretty much consumes him and Spider-Man's out, but then somebody oh well they grab uh he shoots those spiders onto Torment's shocker gauntlet and yanks the gauntlet off. Okay. Because one of the things Carnage talks about when he's talking to Peter is how much like he loves to kill and this, that, and the other. But he's like, but one of my favorite things to do is flay. I love to flay. And when he rips the gauntlet off, it's just dead meat under the dude's hand. Oh man. And so, you know, and again, Spider-Man's just not in control. Yeah. Well, Eddie Brock comes back from the last issue, which you know, he was in a hospital bed and he had uh real real quick recap, he had gotten rid of the Carnage symbiote. He was sort of dying, they had to put him in a hospital bed. And Venom J was like, hey, we hate you, bye, die. And then Dylan's sitting there going, I hate you too, Dad, but I'm gonna sit here with you because I'm just obligated to.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah. But he comes back and he takes Shawker's gauntlet and he blasts Spider-Man, Spider Carnage with it, and the soup flies off of Carnage or off of Spider-Man. So we go back into the subconscious and we see Spider-Man holding Carnage with his hand. Like Carnage is just a little Carnage in his hand, and his spider is glowing on his chest. And Peter's like, Peter's like, I'm sorry, Carnage, but I'm I'm ridding you. All your murderous ways are gonna be killed with hope and whatever. And he stuffs Carnage into the glowing spider, which means they come out into the real world and Carnage is laying there, the symbiote's trying to crawl away, then it dies. And then Spider-Man stands up. Eddie Brock is on the ground, like he's knocked out from, I guess, this shocker blast, and agent anti-venom's all of a sudden there, and he's like, Hey man, I'm here to like, oh listen, we gotta go, we gotta go stop torment. Um, you know, he's going after uh Mary or Aunt May and Annie Watson, right? Anna Watson. And uh so Spider Man's walking away and he's like, Thanks, Eddie, but I still really don't like you. And it's like, What? Where is that coming from? Right. What is that about? And Eddie's pat like Eddie literally just freaking saved you. Yeah. Like, screw you, Peter. So why does everybody hate Eddie? I don't know. It makes no sense. It literally makes no sense. And on top of that, um, we get a t page turn and Spiral has fled the scene now that they were dealing with spider carnage.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Torment.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Or sorry, Torment. Yes. Torment has fled the scene, and he's in the searwell where Aunt May and Anna Watson are leaving and they bump into him.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

And he's like, hey, you guys can't get away from me that easy. Like the spirals must be completed. Yeah. And then in the literal in a page turn, the art is different. A new artist hops in in a page turn, and Venom Venom J busts through the window, grabbing Torment, taking him outside, and taking his face and slamming it to the building while he runs up the building. So Venom is like running up the building while grinding his face on the brick.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Like the old ultimate Spider-Man video game all of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Yeah, literally. They get to the top and a Venom J, which when that if you don't know what that means, that's Venom MJ. Right. Because that's what they c call it, which is so stupid. Um, they throw uh torment against the corner of the building and you see his face. Guess who he is, Clayton?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Is it Paul?

SPEAKER_02 23:14

No.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Oh gosh, I don't know. Robbie Robertson.

unknown 23:18

No.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Who is it?

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Nobody.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

What do you mean, nobody?

SPEAKER_02 23:22

It's just a person.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

It's just an avid.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

It's just a dude. I don't know. I don't know who it is. I have like they don't even they don't ask, like, who even are you? Just a dude. He's just a guy. Yeah. Yeah. And this is the only cool part about this book. This is the only cool thing that I was like, that's interesting, but I do not feel like they're gonna do anything with it.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Venom or MJ. I'm just gonna say Venom, because Venom is MJ right now. Venom picks up Torment by the neck and holds Torment over the building and is looking at him and is like, you are trying to kill all these people. Like I'm you you're you don't belong on this planet. You don't belong on this world. Yeah. And y you should be rid. And he's talking about how, like, you know, like, oh yeah, you love that Peter guy, don't you? Like, don't you really love him? And you love Paul and all these people? He's like, I'll wipe their face off, and it's like I'll wipe them off the face of the earth, and I'll take Peter and I'll strangle him with his own guts or whatever. And she throws him off the building. Oh man. And he falls and he dies. Wow, okay. And MJ goes, Was that you or me? And the symbiote says, I don't know. And at that moment, Spider-Man and Anti Venom swing up behind and they're like, Where's Torment? And then it just cuts right there. No interaction about that death, no conversation. We get um we get this final re-like like we're wrapping it up now.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Part of the story. Uh Peter and MJ are on the phone talking. Um they're not uh and MJ's talking kind of about I g if I think she's kind of talking about the situation. She's talking about how like, you know, this did we this doesn't really feel like a win. Right. Um a lot of people died, and and this, that, and the other. And Peter's like, well, you know, like how like how are things? And she's like, well, Flash came by, and he's like, Oh, I thought you weren't seeing Flash. And she's like, Yeah, well, he came by and you know, I just talked to him, but I didn't really feel good about anything. I just vented to him pretty much. And she's holding a picture, or no, no, no. Then it cuts to Flash holding a picture of her and MJ in high school, of him and MJ in high school pushing Peter away while he's being bullied, or something like that. It's like, that didn't happen. What is that? And then we cut to Eddie Brock, who has been arrested and is in prison, and Dylan is outside the jail cell being like, hmm, and he puts his hood over his head and walks away. And that's the end of the book. That's it. That's that's death spiral.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

What exactly?

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Like, do these writers hate Eddie? That's what I why? Like, he okay, we know what Eddie's been through, right? Right. Especially if we're if we look back at Donnie Cates, we know the pivotal change of Eddie's character and being a father and all these things that he's become. Now he he bonds with the Carnage suit because Al Yuing wanted us to be like, well, someone had to keep it under control, so he did it. Right, right? And in the end they just let him go, or they just they just arrest him, and that's it. There's no there's no like But like why? For what reason? And and Spider-Man's like, screw you, Eddie. Like you you suck. He literally saved you. He saved you, he stopped you from killing MJ. He was about to kill Venom J. Yeah. Literally, because he was Spider Carnage. And what? Like, why are we going back to this this old stuff? Like, Eddie hasn't been in prison. I don't I don't think I remember the last time he was in prison. Yeah, except for the time like when Carnage was pretending to be Eddie so he could kill Lee Price. Like that was it.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

But and and you're telling me Spider-Man defeated Carnage with basically the power of love?

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Pretty much, yeah. And then it it shows like it shows like some cockroaches in the sewer eating like some, I guess, dead meat. It looks like gum, honestly. And then the one of the cockroaches turns into a Carnage cockroach and then attacks a rat. So I guess he's doing that thing like he did at the end of literally, this is what happened at the end of Absolute Carnage, where he bonded with the shark.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Like it's like, okay, so we're just doing, we're okay, well now like Carnage isn't dead. He's gonna he's gonna build his way back up again. Yeah. Like, what are we doing, Spider-Man team? And it it it makes me so mad because Eddie's character development has literally gone nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

It went to something great, and then it has been watered down right back to where he was in the 19 whenever's.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

And it's like, we're past Eddie Brock being in prison, we're past him being a villain, we're past these things. These things are not normal anymore. And and Carnage, like, he's just he's just a an evil symbiote. Right. And and Torment, you missed the biggest opportunity to make him Cletus Cassidy. Like that would have that was my thought.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Or just like anybody.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

It could have been anybody. It could have been but it it I like I what I have been told is that the final issue, the part nine, which is the the um Like the wrap it up. It's the it's the it's called the um the body count issue. Yeah, yeah. That is supposed to be the origin of torment. But I don't care because he's dead. So what does it matter? And he's nobody. There's no there was no big reveal of like this is who I am, right? Or I'm this person or I'm that. And the book ends, which I guess this will this this ending will lead more towards amazing Spider-Man. One of his distant cousins, because Spider Spiral is about to kill a distant relative of Peter, okay one of his like cousins, sure, whatever. And um, Spider-Man saved him, and he's like, Wait, did he just say we were cousins? And Spider-Man's like, uh, he's crazy. Don't listen to what he's saying. Bye. And now that guy is doing something to figure out who Spider-Man is. He's like, I need you to go through my bloodline. I need to figure out who my cousin is. So I guess that's where Spider-Man's going. I don't really care. I'm I'm dropping Amazing Spider-Man after this. I'm not like, I don't, I don't care enough to keep reading it. Um, the art change was good. I liked the second art that came in. I liked it better than the original, but what are we doing? Because now my only thing that I'm left with is I'm just like, I I read this because I was excited to figure out who Torment was. I thought he was cool, I thought he looked cool, he had an interesting story, but he's just nobody. Right. He's he's a nothing character. And sure, I'm excited. I I would like to be excited about like, oh, Venom, Venom bonded with MJ killed somebody.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

MJ killed someone.

SPEAKER_04 29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

What does that mean? But it's not gonna mean anything because the only thing that this team, Al Ewing and the Spider-Man team, have taught me is that nothing means anything.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Just read the book and enjoy it. Here, here's your lunch tray. Enjoy it, bye.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

So I'm really disappointed in this. I'm really disappointed in this event as a whole. The the characters, the characterization of Spider-Man and Carnage and Venom and the Symbiote and MJ, like they're not, these aren't the characters that I've been reading. Right. Right? These aren't that, like, Spider-Man should be worried about Eddie. Right. Spider-Man cared about Eddie in absolute carnage. He should have been worried about Paul. Yeah, he should have been worried about Paul. He should have been worried about Eddie, he should be worried about MJ. And and like, where was that conversation on the roof? Right. Venom or just killed somebody. And Peter and Flash, who are both romantic interests for MJ now, are standing behind her when this happened. Yeah. So it's like, what do you mean you threw him off the roof?

SPEAKER_04 30:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

What is wrong with you? Like that that starts a conflict right there. And they just it just doesn't matter. So the Spider-Man books, nothing matters anymore. And I'm the only question I have is like this makes me not want to read, like, this makes me want to stop Marvel at all.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Honestly, yeah, like like honestly, we're at that point with Marvel, and and in our post that we did last week for the last episode, people have been talking about how Marvel, it's a lot of these problems go back to like what Marvel's doing. And they said that there's a rumor right now that Chip Zidarski and Jonathan Hickman have come together and on a recent podcast somewhere, and I I have not double-checked this, so don't quote me. Yeah, but they said that those two have gotten together and basically said Marvel is is very much behind, excuse me. Um and we have got to catch up, we've got to get our act together.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

And um and so they're they're supposedly working behind the scenes to kind of fix these problems, but man, it's is it I'm not saying it's too little too late, but I am saying like you've dug yourself a really big hole.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

It it's it's at the point where you wonder, like, how are we gonna undo this? Right. Because this has been building for years now. I mean, we're what six years, si five to six years into this being built. Right. This these stories and these character changes. And it's like all of this building has been for nothing.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

Like everything that's happened with Spider-Man has been for nothing. Everything that's happened with Venom has been for nothing. Everything that's happened with Carnage has been literally for nothing because we're all we're right back where we started. And it's like, I understand that. I understand it's like, oh, we want to, we want to go back to the status quo. But excuse my language, but who fucking cares? Like, who fucking cares about the status quo? I don't. I want I want to care where these stories are going. I want these characters to continue to build higher and higher. I want Venom to be the king in black. I want to see those things. I don't care anymore. And now I have to read Queen in Black, which I really don't care about. And I'm just, I'm, I'm so disappointed in the Spider-Man office. I'm so disappointed because what was the point in this? I was really excited about Death Spiral, and I was really, I was going into it like, oh, this is gonna be cool, and like we're gonna get some so hopefully like this feels like a venom story. It ended with nothing, it ended literally with nothing. And maybe Peter and MJ will talk, but I know they're gonna undo it. So what does it matter?

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Right. You know, I you know Marvel knows what we want. Yeah, DC even knows what we want because in this issue of Superman 37 that came out this week, there's a there's a scene. Remember, he's working at a comic store, right? And so there's a moment where he's like, the the owner is saying, I I know you're a little passionate about some of these things in comics, and it cuts to a panel of uh of Superboy Prime arguing, and he's like, They should be married.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

So they know, they literally know, they literally know. Um, so like you don't even have to say it's Peter and MJ. That's all he says. They should be married. So Marvel knows that's what we want, but they'll never do it again.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Nope. Nope. And yeah, and please listen to our last episode where we covered that. Listen to our ultimate Spider-Man episode, we covered that on there too. But I'm I'm very disappointed in in Spider-Man. And I'm the Spider-Man office, Al Ewing, Joe Kelly, um Lore loving, Lore hang hang hang it from a tree low. Like, like I'm so disappointed in these people. I I have loved Spider-Man, I've loved Venom my whole life, and I have never read a story or read these characters, and it'd be this just like what are y'all doing?

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Like, what are you doing? And just to see Eddie back in prison for literally helping kills me. That makes me want to like throw up.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Because now it's just like, well, okay, I guess Eddie's just gone. Bye, Eddie. We needed you out of the book. Bye. You know, Carnage has been canceled because Carnage got canceled a long time ago because it wasn't selling. So they canceled that series because that was where Eddie Brock was at. And now that Carnage is back to bonding with animals until he becomes powerful again in a couple years, um, he I guess I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

I just You said another well, you you this is a cool cover that you got here for Amazing Spider-Man 27. It's the Target coverage.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

The target, the target variants.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

So that doesn't that's not like Target the the superstore, but that's Target, like there's these big characters, and then down there at the bottom is the small character who's supposedly gonna die or something major is gonna happen. This issue has Venom and Spider-Man as as giants, and then Eddie's kind of tiny.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

And then you said though that these they're doing these variants because that's what they're trying to show. That reveals everything you need to know right there. That's a gimmick.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

And they're they've been classified. So when you go on like League of Comic Nations, you can't see the cover. Like I had to go to the comic book store and I was like, hey, can you show me what the secret cover was? Okay. And I don't care to know the spoilers, so I that's why I asked, and I saw that it was Eddie, and I was like, if they kill Eddie, I might be really mad. So they didn't.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

But but they still got he the his his character has been assassinated.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

His character has been 100% assassinated. The the symbiote's character has been assassinated. MJ is not MJ anymore. Peter is just not like none of these characters are what they used to be. Even Flash ain't who he used to be. Everything is just red is just not what it was, and that just like to being a symbiote fan and a Venom fan right now sucks really bad. And like I hate, I hate that that's just where we've gotten, but like I I don't know what to do anymore.

SPEAKER_04 36:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

And I'm at the point with you with Captain America, like, I want to drop this. And the thing that sucks is I'm I'm so like here's the part that sucks. Right. I'm really curious to know how much more they're gonna set this dumpster on fire, but also it makes me mad. So I don't know, like, should I keep doing this? Should I not? Because I'm also supporting it, and I don't want to support the book that that's doing things that I absolutely can't stand. So, Marvel, if you're listening, please, please sit down and just and and think about things a little bit harder. Think about this story a little bit harder. Think about Queen of Blacks, I'm sure just it's a gimmick all in its own. I mean, they're doing blind bags, so who cares? Right. Um, I did buy one. Um, I'm gonna open it on the show as a gimmick. Um, but that's that's really it.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

But it's it's like, do you want to sell books? Like you it's that joke, like oh, it's Spider-Man, I've got to buy Spider-Man. You know, uh people are like that. But but that's the only audience that you basically have left anymore. Yeah. If you really want to sell books, give us what we've asked for for 20 years now. And also read, read, read your books.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Read your books because you these people are putting things out that are not consistent. These are not consistent character arcs, these are not consistent stories, right? Like again, that lore, love, and low line in the beginning of this event bothers me because it's like you aren't consistent with lore. Right. So why are you saying that you're the lore, love, and low? You're not. So, like, do your homework. If you're gonna be writing these books, if you're gonna make a movie, if you're gonna write a book, if you're gonna do something based on a fictional character that is popular, do your homework because people, us fans, we do our homework because we love it. We're nerds. We read these because it's fun. You read it because you get paid to do it. Right. I don't know. I think we are not the same. Um, the argument that that I'm making is just these the people who write these books should be fans. Yeah. These people who are writing Spider-Man right now and Venom clearly are not fans. Yeah. So there's your review on Amazing Spider-Man Death Spiral. I'm still gonna buy Venom. I will buy the final finale issue just to just to give it a close on here. I don't know if I'm gonna read Venom. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Um so so time to rank it. Is it on or off?

SPEAKER_02 38:26

This is an off the pull list book. Okay. This book is it it is entertaining. I'll I'll give it that. It is interesting, and you are invested. But it gets to the point where we are at the finale, and I could have skipped this book and it wouldn't have mattered. Now, again, we got to see Spider Carnage, that's that's exciting. We got to see MJ kill someone. Like, I would do the main the if I was writing this book, oh, I'd freaking carry that forever. I would never drop that, right? You know, like but I know they're not gonna do anything.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Like, there'll there'll be one issue where she's like, Well, I think I killed somebody, and then the symbiote will be like, No, I think I killed it. Yeah, yeah, and that'll just be it.

SPEAKER_02 39:09

Yeah, oh, okay, thanks for reading. Thanks for taking the blame. You know, so that makes me feel better. And then it's a joke, and you move on. And it's like, you know, this isn't off the pull list. It's it's it's a it I I feel after after getting to this point, I feel like I have wasted my time and my money reading it. Now I'm I'm I've been excited to talk about it on the show. Sure. And it's still like I'm glad that I can voice my opinion somewhere, right? But that's that's how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

All right, well, let's move from disappointment garbage to something that brings us both great joy. A story that does both of our characters excellence. Yes. And that is the Spider-Man Superman crossover. Now, this is different. Yes. Because we did review the Superman Spider-Man, which was published by DC.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

That is true.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

So this one is different. This is the Spider-Man Superman. I know flipping the words around is a little weird. But but Marvel published this one. And in our last episode, when we reviewed the the crossover, we said, Oh, maybe Marvel will be better.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

And then we were like, Oh, I can't believe we just said that. Now, the reason we didn't like that issue, we not that we didn't like it. We I think that we enjoyed it. Um it just the problem was was that we both agreed that there were too many stories being told. And that still that still sticks with it. So there are still problems with this, but the stories that are being told in this issue are better and are more entertaining than previously. Yes. So and again, I I still have a little bit of a disagreement with that, but we'll get into it.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

We'll get into it. So opening up this story was incredible. Brad Meltzer and Pepe Laraz uh are the the writers and art the writer and the artist for the story. We start off, and and this is something you brought up when we kind of were talking about it. You can just tell.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

I'm ready to get to it.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

This is something you kind of brought up that you're like, there should have been a little bit more to a beginning of the story because we don't really know what happened, but we open up and Spider-Man and Superman are kind of trapped. Yeah, they're trapped in some rubble, and they're kind of figuring out like, who are you?

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah, like yeah, who are you? And like Superman's doing his x-ray to be like, well, I just gotta make sure you don't have any kryptonite on you. He's like, What the heck, man? You x-raying me?

SPEAKER_01 41:23

And why do you carry a watch in your pocket? Is one of the things that Superman asks. He's like, What no, no, no, stop looking at me. I feel gross. I don't know if you even notice, like, in the panel, he like covers himself. But uh, so they're talking and and you see like an opening at the top, and a um a green goblin, uh, a pumpkin bomb falls in and releases kryptonite gas, and as it's caving in, the cave is caving in on him, uh, Spider-Man's holding it up, and he's like, Just talk to me. Like, I need you to talk to me. Yeah, like ask me a question.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

And Superman says, Why do you do it? And he's like, What do you mean, why do I do it? I'm carrying I'm holding this big thing. What do you mean? Why do I do it? I'm holding it letting you die. Yeah, he's like, No, why do you be a hero? And Spider-Man says, Out of guilt. And he kind of it almost reminded me of what he gives uh Spider-Man gives uh Iron Man in Civil War. He's like, when Iron Man asks him why do you do it? And he's like, when you have the the ability to do the things that I do and you don't do them, and then the bad things happen, that's on you. Yeah, that's kind of what he tells Superman. Yeah, when you have the ability and you don't do it, that's on you now. Yeah, and Superman um, you know, is like I I get it. And then uh there's a uh moment of explosion.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Yeah, there's this flash where they both see into each other's lives. Yes. And I think this is where they both realize who each other are. Yes. Because he's like, Clark Kent, Peter Parker? Yeah, and after that moment, I love that immediately uh Spider-Man Peter calls uh Superman Mr. Kent. Yes. He's like Mr. Kent. Like he's like, you know, like that immediately, once he knows, he's like, I gotta be respectful now, you know. Right, right. Um, and uh because something has touched both of them. Yes, and this explains why Spider-Man's Spidey Sense also was not working. Um Go ahead, go ahead. No, go ahead. I'm geeking out, yeah. Um, and the rubble has been lifted. Sort, no, it's not been lifted, but it's it's there in a bigger space. Yeah, and he looks at Superman and this black goo is covering him slowly, and then we explode to a splash page where Spider-Man is swinging away from venomized Superman.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Holy shit! Oh my god, dude, it was so awesome!

SPEAKER_02 43:36

I my okay, my jaw dropped when I saw that. I was like, no freaking way. Like, yes, oh my gosh. And this is so funny because forever, as long as as long as me and Clayton have known each other, my favorite character has been Venom, one of his favorite characters has been Superman, and they did a crossover uh a long time ago with Probably early 2000s, late 90s. Yeah, yeah, and And uh Venom and Superman fought and Venom won. And we had this gag where Clayton, I I love Rage Maiden Clayton. And I'm like, I'm like, yeah, Superman beat the crap out of, or Venom beat the crap out of Superman. And he's like, no, Venom, Superman didn't totally win. And I'm like, but he didn't.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

And I tried to bring up the argument, like, that only happened because in the other crossover between Batman and Hulk, the Marvel was mad that they allowed uh Hulk to beat Batman.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

You know, I'm like, so that's the only reason this happened.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

And I was like, nope, nope, he won. It don't matter. Or Batman beat the Hulk. I was like, it don't matter. Who cares? Venom won. It's in there. It's out. So we got a little bit of a handshake that then turned into Clayton smacking my hand. And now we are tied.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

We're all tied. So not only do we get Venomized Superman, uh, and he's he's fighting with the symbiote. Uh, but you know, and you see Lex and you see Green Goblin kind of watching. And you hear the symbiote, and it's like talking and it's talking out loud. And there's one moment, and it the symbiote's like, uh, Lex, it's he's fighting me, and you just see like Superman's heat vision just shoot out of the top of the symbiote. That was that's a cool panel.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

That is a really sick panel.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

And and and it's still fighting him and trying to argue with him. And this is the moment I was like, oh, I won. I won. Because the symbiote says he's doing something with our arms. We can't, we're not strong enough. Yeah, and Superman does a super clap.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Yeah, and then when he claps, the symbiote shoots off of him, which is an amazing panel, which actually I flipped through this book and I saw that panel. I didn't see him actually venomized. I saw that panel and I was like, I need to not look through this anymore. Yeah, something venom happens. And unfortunately, I owe you dinner. And the and fortunately for you, you don't owe you. I know you didn't know the snow.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

But the art in this story is incredible because then the next page, yep, we we get like a tap on Lex and Green Goblin's shoulder, and they can turn around, and it is a beautiful panel of Superman and Spider-Man saying, fight back, please.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah, and they're both they both got their fist ready, and it's like it's a mirroring image of both of them. And and and then we cut um to Peter at the cemetery talking to Uncle Ben's tombstone.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Yes. I think it says like three weeks have passed.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

And Clark Kent shows up and uh he's like, uh, my spider synth still just getting to go off, or something like that. He says something like that.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Yeah, he's like, Oh, you know, he says, Ah, made your spider sense go off, didn't I? Yeah, and he's like, Oh, Mr. Mr. Kent. And he's like, please call me Clark.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

You're right. And he's like, I I thought I'd find you here. And then he says, That watch, it was your uncle's, right? And he's like, It's a reminder, hmm? And he's like, Yes, it is. Um, and then they're going off to visit Superman's parents, Pa and Ma Kent. And they go over there and they kind of have a little bit of back and forth. He's like, Is it okay if I bring my Aunt May? And he's like, Of course. Yeah. May and Ma will get along just fine.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Yeah. Or they'll beat each other. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

You underestimate Kansas. Well, I think you underestimate Queens.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Yeah, it's like, yeah, you haven't seen Queens, buddy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

And uh so they go and it's a beautiful, there's no like text. It's a beautiful moment, just like the the two families interacting. Yeah. And uh now you you might have to fill in here, but but I am remembering that they said that that Superman says you were wrong. And Spider-Man's like, why was I wrong? And this is as they're like washing dinner, uh the dishes after dinner. And uh he's like, Why, why, why, why am I wrong? He's like, Well, you said you did this out of guilt. He's like, but you don't. And I believe he says you do it because you have a responsibility, you do it out of responsibility, not guilt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure they say that in the cemetery before the because the ending is just literally them just in having a good time.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

And there was a cool moment where they're like uh where a Pa Kent says, I I would have liked to have met your Uncle Ben. That sounds like we would have been friends. Yeah, yeah. I thought that was really cool. I like that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Yeah, because that throws back to the other DC where yeah, yeah. So um, but uh this I I I I want to talk about my problems with this story specifically. This is the main story, so I I have I've um my only problem, and like I under I this probably isn't is it who who writes is it Brad Meltzer? This is Brad Meltzer, yeah. And I hope Brad, I hope you're listening. If you are I hope you are too glad you're here. Thank you for reading. Thank you for giving us Venomized Superman. I'm so glad. But my only critique, and again, this book falls with the same problem that the first one did, is that there are too many stories in this. There's too many side stories. I would have rather had this been the entire story.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

And because when you when you flip out, when you see that big panel of Venom and Spider-Man, right, or Venom, Superman, and Spider-Man, you know, they get um there are multiple, there are all these villains around in this, I guess what was a big fight. Right. So we we miss all this stuff happening, right? We have Lex Luther and Green Goblin, like Green Goblins in, they both have goblin gliders, yeah. And Green Goblin has a Lex Luther tech goblin suit. Right. And there's just no explanation to that. There's it's again, it's it's very quick, because this feels like what should have been a big oh crap for Spider-Man moment of like, oh my gosh, now I have to fight Venomite, like my greatest foe bonded with my greatest ally. Yeah, right, you know, and I I I just I wish this would have taken up the whole story because right when they're about to start, like right when he breaks free of the symbiote and he's about to start fighting, it cuts. And I'm just like, no, like I wanted more of that. And and I don't think it's it's it's Brad's fault. I think it's just because of his head, he didn't have a lot to work with with the page count. Right. Um, but I I would have loved to got a bigger story with this. I would have loved to seen you know, more of the before, more of like the after, and just really focus on this fight and Superman and Spider-Man's alliance. Because also they start to bond in this cave or rubble. And it's like, what if they're having a hard time working together? Right. Like, what if we start with that hard time that happens, and that's the moment of like, all right, let's let's lock in, and then Venom comes into play at some point, right?

SPEAKER_03 50:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Um I don't know. I that that's my only critique with this, and I'm just being a little bit heavier critiquing on this one because I liked it so much, right? And it's the main story. Um but yes, I would have loved to got a bigger story out of this. But Brad, thank you so much for giving us a Venomized Superman. Me and Clayton Clayton can finally sleep at night knowing that he finally beat me.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

So I want to correct what I said earlier. So Superman says that you're right, they are at the the gravesite, and Superman says, I actually came because when we were trapped, what you said, you don't do it because of guilt. Spider-Man says, Mr. Kent.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

And Superman says, Clark. Trust me on this. It's never been about guilt, Peter. You do it because great people, kind people, they taught you it's the right thing to do. Yeah. And man, it's just gosh, I want a whole series. Yeah. I would like that's what I was thinking while reading this. Of Peppy LaRaz doing the art, Brad Meltzer doing the story. This is I'm just gonna go ahead and admit it. This is the best Superman Spider-Man story that uh has come from these crossovers.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Yeah, we both, we both are like, we don't know really what's on each other's like list, but we both know for a fact this is number one. Right. This is the best story out of all of them. And and you know, to get that story and to get again, it this it should have been a bigger book. We should have gotten a just a kind of like the original super size, which I actually have sitting here. We do have an original sitting here um on our table. Um, this should have been just a bigger story about this, about them. And I think if Marvel does this again, Marvel, please give this a series. Yeah. Or DC, give this a series. Yeah, somebody give it a series.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

I'll buy every single one.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

And have Brad freaking write it. And Brad, you just keep doing what you're doing, please put Venom in it.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

And Peppy Laura, just please, because your art is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

The art was very good. I love about the Venom Superman. His his Superman symbol has legs coming off. I think that's so cool. And also, he doesn't have a venom mouth. No, he's not. You see through his through the symbiote his mouth open, like in the wrinkles of it, and I think that looks really cool. So it's definitely a different, like, if you like I I I like the Venom mouth, but it can be it, especially where every character's venomized now. Like you see it all the time, and I think it not being in this was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

I think that was so this I know you've not seen it. I know you've not seen it, but in Superman, yes, I still there is a moment I'll forgive you, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Is Venom in it?

SPEAKER_01 52:55

There it's it, I it feels like they were trying to do venom almost.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Uh, there's like nanites that kind of act almost like a symbiote, and it gets on him, and there's a moment, it feels like this moment in the movie almost, where it's like covering him, it's like in his mouth, it's it's everything. And uh the moment with the heat vision is like almost feels straight from the movie. It was just so cool, man. Oh, I'm still nerd enough.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

I wonder, I wonder if he had inspiration for the movie. Yeah, probably. Um, but yeah, so easily that was a fantastic. Oh, yeah. That was a fantastic story. I wish it was longer. I wish that they would have cut half of these stories out and just have put that in there, you know. Like, you know, we don't need how many stories? This this this issue had nine stories. Uh the DC one had eight. Right. So this one had one extra story. Um, I just think that we could have that we just don't need that many stories in a crossover.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

No, no, honestly, I think what would have been like a great idea would have been you could still stick with like the Spider-Man Superman tagline and still do like an issue one, but like each story maybe its own issue.

SPEAKER_03 53:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

And I think that you that way you could have like fleshed out the story a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Yeah. Um, but or have some kind of a DC crossover, like a bigger, instead of it just being a one-issue thing. Right. Because again, this has the same thing of like, we want to tell this story, we want to tell, we want to see what you know, Ghost Spider, and Supergirl do. But it's like, I want to see Spider-Man and Superman. Right. I want to see everybody interacting in the same story, not in multiple story. Like, I want to see a big thing with everybody in it. Even if it's just like, you know, like because I'm curious, I would be curious to know like Lex Luther and Green Goblin. Right. Like what was their, how was their tie working? Like, what does Lex Luther think about like Norman being a businessman but being psychotic? You know, like like because Lex isn't to that level psychotic. Right. So like I just I would love to see that interaction. Where where did Venom even come from in this issue, right? Like he could have been there fighting and just been like, I want that guy, and abandons whoever he's bonded to. And um, I think it you know what would have been a really cool throwback? What's that? If Venom was bonded to Angelo Fortunato. And because it do you know who that is? No, I'm not. There was a um that one of the hosts of right before the symbiote bonded with Matt Gargan, he was bonded with Angelo Fortunato, who was a mafia boss' kid. Oh, okay. He was a weenie. Okay. He Venom is jumping, like, or him bonding to the symbiote is jumping from building to building, and Venom's like, you suck, screw you, and jumps off of him and he falls and dies. Literally, like, I'm not kidding. So imagine if that happened and the symbiote's like, I want him, and just leaves Angelo and he falls and dies again. Um I don't know, just something something like that. I would have loved have seen that. I would have loved to see more. Um, gosh, I I want to see more Venom in Superman. Like that, that was really especially all this Venom stuff being sucky right now. That was really refreshing. It was so such a refreshing story.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Oh man, it was incredible. So the next story was the Spider-Man Noir and Superman. Golden Age Superman.

SPEAKER_02 55:54

Yeah, Golden Age Superman. I'll take it away. Yeah, you go, you go for it. This is good.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

In this story, we have a little bit of like Spider-Man Noir, and uh he's going after Lex Luthor. And so you see him kind of it feels very noir. This is Dan Slot and Marcos Martin riding this. And uh it feels kind of noir. You kind of have that. It was a dark and dreary day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh so he finally beats his way and he gets to Lex Luthor. Yep. And he pulls out a gun and he shoots at Lex.

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Yeah. And oh wait, oh wait, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. No, no, you go ahead. I'll I'll jump in in a minute.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

Yeah, so he shoots a gun at Lex, and this is really cool because you just see like the moment uh the bullet fires. So I don't know if you noticed, but in that page, it says bang. Yeah, I saw it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I noticed it. It's like slow down. So each letter is like a different moment of like the bullet traveling, but then you see this blur like run up the building. Yep. And then even like the sound effect for the bullet is like bounces off of Superman. And uh he's like, no, we have to keep him alive. Uh he's gotta he's gotta testify. He busts through, blocks the bullet before it hits Lex. Uh Spider-Man Noir is basically like, I don't know who you are, but you're saving Lex Luther, and that makes you a criminal. And Kyle webs him up. He's like, This should hold you. And Superman just busts out of it.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

And then he grabs him, and I didn't notice this at first, but when we talked about it, Superman grabs Lex and he jumps out of the building. He pulls the amazing fantasy 15 pose uh and and kind of runs off.

SPEAKER_03 57:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

And then the next page is J. Jonah Jameson saying, I'm I'm I'm innocent. I'm glad Lex squilled. I'm I'm I'm innocent, thank goodness. Which again, this is this story suffers from the rest of it. Right, right. If it was longer, you know, we would have known why is why is J. Jonah Jameson basically on trial. Yeah. Why is he on the electric trailer?

SPEAKER_02 57:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

But we don't get that.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

We don't. And one of my favorite things about this that um was so cool, um, it's Spider-Man Noir's dialogue. Yes. And when he shoots when he shoots the the gun the gun, it says, that should have been it. That should have been the end of it. And he says, But I forgot. Uh it's uh 1938. There's a new player in town, and he's faster than a speeding bullet. That was cool. Not bad. Let's see if he's faster than two. And he points the gun at it. Or no, he's about to shoot him, and his guns are melting. He's like, oh nuts. Um I thought that died. I thought that line was pretty cool. Because um Spider-Man Noir is one of my favorite versions of Spider-Man. I know. And I love the original stories. Yeah. Um, but the new one that they came out with before, because the show's about to come out, so they had to do a re-release. Um the character was not Spider-Man. Like, that wasn't Spider-Man Noir. And this this version of him was Spider-Man Noir. So I was it wasn't exactly like it wasn't as dark, but it was close enough for me to be like, okay, that they didn't mess that up. Because I was really worried that. Thank you, Dan Slot. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Uh there's actually uh oh man, this was it, it was better than the DC one. DC one was was good, but but this one was just like incredible. Yeah. So the next story, unless there's anything else you want to know on the other thing. I think that was it for that one for me.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

The next story we get is titled Mysterio versus Superman Featuring the Thing and More.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

Wait, was it that one or was it the That's the next story. Oh, I thought it was Which story did you think was next? I think it's uh wait, is it is it that one? Or is it wait, hang on, am I wrong? Oh no, it's Gwen Stacy and Lana Lang. Oh, oh, I am wrong. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

I I just got so excited, I guess, I just really wanted to talk about that. Uh so we get Lana Lang and Gwen Stacy, and they're both at Empire State University. Yep. They it seems like they just got out of class. They're kind of talking, they introduced themselves. Uh, you really like this store, so I'll I've been talking for a while. You you take it here.

SPEAKER_02 59:42

I I really like this one for a multitude of reasons. I know during the first uh podcast, we saw I saw this cover, and I was I was using the cover of this story, um, the variant cover that they had, which my local comic store didn't have it. I'm really sad they didn't. Yeah. Um, because it's them talking on a rooftop and Spider-Man and Superman are swinging by. Yeah. And um I remember we made up a little story of like, I wish they'd have done this with MJ and Lois Lane and had them like having this cute conversation while they're fighting crime in the background. And it's it would just have been a really cool thing. Um, so for some reason, every time I see the story and my brain is now thinking about like, oh, I I really like that story, I really want to do it. And um, it was really cool because they're both girl bonding and having this girl moment of like, oh, you know, like, yeah, like you know, men suck and you know, men aren't that great sometimes, but like there's this guy and uh Clark Kent, he's so amazing. Oh, well, Peter Parker, he's wonderful. And they're talking about how like, yeah, they kind of suck at things, and yeah, they like some of their excuses for being late is like worse than I that that worse than my dog ate my homework, but like, and then it shows panels of Superman fighting Sandman, and then it shows Spider-Man fighting. I think that's Kryptonite Man. I was like, I don't know who that is. Um by uh Humberto Hum Humberto Ramos, I'm pretty sure yeah, and um really awesome panels, but it's just it's this really cool thing of them being like, okay, well, like these guys are really cool, and like, yeah, they seem kind of sucky, but at the end of the day, like they're good people. And like, you know, oh, because they're always late and stuff, and then they show up literally, like they both they both say, uh, Gwen Stacy and Lana both say simultaneously, I think I'm gonna marry that guy. And then literally they show up and they're like, Yeah, we had this awful thing, and like this awful, like uh, I have it in front of me. Can you believe sand uh can you believe they sand the streets in the summer? Here's so weird. Big city, I guess. And then Peter's like had a run in with a with a rabid fire hydrant in the water tower and fell in the river, and then both the girls just laugh together. Like it's it's it's a really cute moment, right? Um, it's a really cute girlfriend public outing moment. Um, it was one of my favorite stories. I really enjoyed that story.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

I think it's a very sweet story, especially because they both say, I think I'm gonna marry that guy. Yeah, yeah. And and unfortunately, neither one of them do. They are not the primary love.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:04

I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Yeah, because Gwynn will die and Lana, and then Clark moves on from Lana because Lana stays in Smallville. That's the only thing I guess I could critique about that. Is why is Lana in New York when her big thing is like she doesn't want to leave Smallville? Eventually she does, but yeah, um, yeah, I don't know. Anyways, then the story is Mysterio versus Superman featuring the thing, which as I said before, it should have been the fa the thing featuring Mysterio versus Superman. Right, right, right. Um, this is written by Jeff Johns and Gary Frank. And so I told you that I really liked this story, and that yeah, I admit could possibly be because I really like Jeff Johns and Gary Frank. Yeah, they did Doomsday Clock, they did like Superman Secret Origin, so they did several stuff like that uh that we really enjoyed.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

I'm really worried because the guy that mows my lawn is mowing my lawn right now, and I'm like I hope it don't come through.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

You can kind of hear it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

If it comes through, I'm really sorry, everybody. We will continue. On with the books, on with the bull list. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

So, anyways, so this story is basically that all these heroes are fighting. The Legion of Superheroes is here, and the Teen Titans are here, and everybody's fighting everybody. And why is this happening? Well, the thing is the one narrating this story.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

And he is explaining that um Mysterio got a hold of a red lantern ring, which red lantern is powered by anger.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

Uh and so everybody is kind of just fighting each other. Yeah, he used the Hulk as like an amplifier because of course the Hulk is powered by rage. So everybody's fighting everybody.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

And there's just a few people, a few heroes that are not affected by this.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

This is Superman, Stargirl, which I thought this was very sweet because I don't know if you know this, but Jeff Johns, uh, his sister Courtney passed away. And he created and shortly after he joined DC Comics, and he made Stargirl based on his sister. So the fact that she's here in this issue saying that she's not affected by rage, I think again was a very sweet, kind of touching moment to his sister. Um, Captain America, uh, Hal Jordan and Green Hal Jordan, Green Lantern, the Thang, and She-Hulk. And I really like that the the Thang is explaining that the reason these people aren't affected by the Red Lanterns is because they just don't have that in them. They're just not wired to really be an angry person. They don't really have this stored up in them. But some of them just because they believe so much that you know that in in the cause, basically. And then people like uh She-Hulk, Jennifer Walters and Hal Jordan have experience with rage that they have overcome.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

And that's why if they're not affected by the Red Lantern. So, anyways, they devise a plan, they're gonna go after the Hulk.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

And they take the Hulk down, but it's taken all of them.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:05

Well, who's the person who takes down the Hulk? It's Superman. And this is Gary Frank's art does an incredible job of showing, I think, emotion. And he does this, and he has while they're all restraining the Hulk, everybody's doing it to try to hulk. Superman grabs the Hulk's face and is trying to talk to him. We don't see what he says, but it's simply just that it's the first time I thought he's ever seen the Hulk listen, and maybe the first time he's ever seen the Hulk cry. Yeah, because Superman calms down the Hulk to Bruce Banner, they clean up the remaining guys uh who's still angry. And Superman has this really sweet moment with the thing, and the thing's like uh why would you do that, basically? You know, he the Banner is angry all the time, we were fighting each other. Why why do you just why was your plan basically just to talk to him? Yeah. And Superman says Well, he Mysterio used the Red Lantern ring to convince us that we have nothing in common. That we we are better if we're going at each other. Uh but reality, if we just keep fighting then and we never talk things out, then the fighting is pointless.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

There there's no no reason. Even an enemy can be a friend. Yeah. And I'm like, oh man, that's a sweet moment. So then the thing gets a box of donuts and he goes and he finds Bruce Banner. And Bruce Banner's like, why why why why are you coming to me? Like, are you here to yell at me or make me feel any more guilty? And he's like, I just I just thought you could use a friend. Yeah. And I'm like, that's that's so sweet, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

He's like, I just want to talk. Yeah. Which is yeah. Which we've never seen that before. We've seen the Hulk and we've seen the Hulk and the thing fight. Right. And we've I think we've seen that twice.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

We've seen that more than twice. We've seen that a bunch. Yeah. Okay. But it it's beautiful that it shows that Superman is the only person that can make the thing and the Hulk not fight. Yeah. That they just make them talk.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

I want to know what he said. The fact that he you know holds him and he's like, he says this because you know Hulk's fighting there for a little bit of it, and then he slowly slows down. Yeah. I really want to know what he says.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

So yeah, but I think it's I think it's one of those things that's kind of better left unsaid. Yeah. That if if he had included what he said, it would have kind of taken away from the moment.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:20

Yeah, it's so meaningful. It's because all we're gonna do is think about what he said.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

Well, that didn't actually move me.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

Oh, yeah, that doesn't move, yeah, but it's like we all picture what does move us. Right. Yeah, which I think is really cool. So that was the third story.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Yes. Then we get into a story called Ghosting.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

Ghosting, yep. And now great one.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

Now this is with Hobgoblin and Steele featuring Thor.

unknown 1:07:44

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

Because Thor's the one that's the day.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

Yeah, he's a he's a he's Spider-Man. He's from Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

He's I'll admit, I'll admit that the art is good. The art is good. Who draws this? Todd Nahook. Okay. I believe. Oh, Todd Nahook, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he follows us on Instagram. Oh, that's cool. Okay. Todd, if you're listening, uh you did an incredible job, so thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:02

The art is very nice. Very nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:03

Um well, anyways, we see basically that Hobgoblin has stolen some nanites from Steelworks, which is the company in Metropolis. And he's gonna he's going to use this for nefarious purpose. What nefarious purpose, we don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

But he's just me!

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

Well, he gets hit in the chest with a giant hammer.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:27

So Steele carries a big hammer, so you think, oh, still stopped him.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

Well, then you turn the page.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

And you see that it is Thor. Thor.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

Thor stopped him, they shake hands, they're like, I like your hammer, I like your hammer.

unknown 1:08:42

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:44

Oh, your hammer's so nice. Oh, yes, thank you. It's got the leather, it's good leather on the bottom of your hammer. Your hammer extends. Yeah, it's just like two bros doing bro things.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

Right, right. That's and that's pretty much that story.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

And that's it. That's literally the story. Yeah. Just just move on. Next one. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

So moving on to the next one. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:03

So yep. Um, which this story is called Remarkable, which is with Spider Gwen and uh Superwoman. Uh uh, Supergirl, sorry. And um uh Spider Gwen is standing on top of the Daily Planet with a little autograph journal that she's holding on to, and she's really excited to meet the son of Krypton, Superman, and she's gonna get him to sign his autograph, and then Supergirl shows up and she's like, Who are you? Yeah, like um, which uh like and the Supergirl's like, You're not Spider-Man, and she's like, Spider-Man? Like, I'm Ghost Spider. And then it's really funny because they uh something goes on, like they hear a scream, so they go to help. And Supergirl says, uh, like, just stay here, spooky spider. She flies away and she's like, It's ghost spider, but okay. Yeah. Um, and they go and they fight LiveWire. LiveWire, um, which it's a very quick fight because Supergirl's like, Oh, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna stop you, and then Gwen webs her up and then kicks her from behind. Right. She falls down, and then that's it. And the girls both have this little like stare-off stare-off where they're where uh they're like, Uh, I didn't need you. Well, I didn't need you either.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:10

And Supergirl's like, you know what, whatever. I just I gotta go, I gotta go save the world. Bye. And she flies away. And the Spider Gwen picks up her autographed book, she opens it, and Supergirl autographed the inside of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:20

She did, and it's pretty funny what she wrote.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

So one of the five million spider-powered heroes loved Supergirl. Which was it was a cute little story. Yeah, it was a very cute little, like, this this is a good, this is a good small issue. Yeah. That's a good, like, that doesn't need a lot, right? Right. And I think out of all of these issues that are really short, because again, this this book has that same problem of there's the short the stories are too short and there's too many. This one is a good one of like, this would be good to have in the back of the issue. Yes, yes you know, like, oh, that's just a cute little, you know. So I I really like this story.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:51

Which next we move on to The One Thing by Brian Michael Bendis with Superman and Spider-Man, but not Peter Parker, Miles Morales. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:00

Uh, this one was uh also, I think, a sweet story. This is Miles Morales is kind of swinging around. Oh, the city doesn't need me. Why am I even doing this? And then there's boom in the background, and he's like, Oh, well, I guess I better go check that out.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:14

And it's Superman, and he's got like something on him. I don't really, I guess, know. It's not kryptonite necessarily, it doesn't really look like it. And so, anyways, um, he he he like Spider-Man gets that off and he throws it and it like blows up.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:32

And Superman's like, I'm still kind of weak from it. Again, it doesn't look like Kryptonite, it just looks like cosmic goo almost.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:38

But I'm assuming it's kryptonite.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:40

But it's like a magic, because he says it's like uh you're getting there.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

So so they kind of introduce themselves and they're like, oh, I don't like magic. Oh, I don't like it either. And uh he explains that Brainiac has teamed up with Dormammu and they're they're working together and they're fighting, and um so Spider-Man says, I do you have just a moment before we go fight them? Like, I just have something I want to ask you real quick. And Superman's like, Yeah, go for it. I I don't know if we really have the time for this, but but sure, go ahead and tell me. And Spider-Man's like, or Miles is like, I just have one question. When you were my age, like, what advice do you have for me? And he's like, Well, what do you mean? Like, and and Miles is kind of like, Well, with great power comes great responsibility, and and that's one that that's a lesson that I already have, but like I something else.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:32

And Superman says, Well, and he gives a nice little speech, and I I will say, I don't like Brian Michael Bendis' run on Superman. Uh, just a personal thing, but yeah, I think he does a really well-written Superman here.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:46

Yeah, yeah, this was yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

And Superman pretty much says that my one piece of advice is for you is what you're basically already doing. Just show up. Yeah, just continue to put in the work. Uh, you don't have to worry about doing all the right things or going to all the right places, but just to show up.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

And that is the right choice. It's just to show up and to make an effort.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

And you're already doing that. So good job. Yeah. And uh Miles is like, wow.

unknown 1:13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:15

Now you tell me. Yeah, yeah. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:18

Yeah. And then uh Dormammu and Brainiac are joining forces and they're coming to the planet with some weird demonic, well, it's like the demonic face behind the Brainiac ship coming in, and they talk over what uh they they have that conversation and then they swing up there to take them out.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:39

Yep. So that's the end of that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:40

That's the end of that story. Again, we stop right at the fighting. Right. Which is which is kind of it after like at this point, I was like, this is getting kind of annoying that it stops right at the fighting.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:49

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

So it's just like conversation issue. Okay, we're gonna fight, and then it's over. Yeah. You know, it's like it's it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:56

So then we move on to a story that is called The Wondrous and the Worthy or Symbiotes and Metropolis. Yes. I see it's had both titles. It's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

It's weird. It has yeah, because it's got a there's a page in after the mainline story that has the list of all the stories that are coming up. Right. And they're not called that, the what they're what they're actually titled, but then you go because it actually, because I had read that and I was like, there's no other symbiote story in here, and I didn't realize that this was actually a symbiote story. Right. Because of course me and being a Venom fan, I'll be like, where is it? Where is it? I need to know! I was actually I was doing that on the phone, I was like, where is it? Where's the story?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:32

It's like it says symbiotes, I don't see it, and then I was like, uh So I guess the only symbiotes here is that uh there are symbiotes on the parademons of apocalypse.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:41

Yes, because um of uh Dark Side. Dark side has the uh Necrosword. And this isn't the null Necrosword. This is well, it is, but it's the it's the version that Gore had. So it's kind of like the blade that's kind of a part of his hand. Right. Um so I guess he's using that giving it because you know that has been retconned to be a symbiote now. Right. Um he's using that to give all of the parademon symbiotes, and now dark side has a symbiote armor.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

So they're they're calling back to Jason Aaron's kind of last Thor story, War of the Realms. And in the War of the Realms is is and and really we we sum up that story here in the first page. We kind of wrap up what everything that had happened. And um just a refresher is Jane Foster is Thor here. Yep, and she kind of throws she she throws Mule Mule near and she's getting tackled by these parademon venoms, and she can't venoms, venoms, venom, and she can't get the uh the mule near back, but uh golden lasso wraps it up and pulls it towards her, and basically like Wonder Woman will or she pulls um Jane Foster Thor towards her.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

And she's like, Oh, hey, you're you're Thor, and you're not the Thor that I know. Yeah, yeah. Uh oh, but you're Wonder Woman. Say something cool. Hi, you know? Um so they were talking, and and then even Jane Foster hands Wonder Woman the Mulnir and says, You're more worthy than I am. Yeah, like here, this belongs to you, and she says, No, you you deserve it. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

Uh Dark Side shows up, and then it's like, for centuries, people told the tales of what happened there on in Metropolis with all the symbiotes and how all the heroes join together and join forces.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:29

They join forces to fight, and then that's the end. We get another like, here we go, big fight, and then it it comes. Then nothing happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:37

Uh, but one thing I do like about this uh story, especially the last final moment. Do you see Batman wielding a giant sword?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:44

I do now. That is I I just noticed that Batman was there. I didn't actually I was just I didn't notice that before.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:49

Everybody else is like their normal selves. And then there's just Batman with a giant sword.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:54

He's like, I had to quit fighting Rachel Ghoul. I just had to grab what I had. He took my utility belt, so I just needed a sword. A sword will do. Oh, Darkseid has a sword, so he's got the necro, whatever. I don't care, but it's his sword. I'm gonna fight him.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:08

Batman's gonna humble Darkseid.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

He went, dude, honestly, I think Batman will win. Anytime someone's like, who wins? This person or Batman, I'm like, Batman.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:17

Maybe, maybe that varies, but yeah, most of the time I'm like there have been moments in comics where Batman has actually defeated Darkseid like twice. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:25

Yeah, I don't, I wouldn't doubt that. Like literally, like the thought of like who wins Batman or Dark Side? I'm like, probably Batman.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

This is jumping ahead to our Invincible review later, but I I saw somebody the other day had posted that said, uh, everybody's so focused on the Superman versus Thrag fight who would win, but nobody's talking about the Batman versus Thrag fight. Batman would win.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:44

Batman would just grapple hook and just kick him. And Thrag's like, ugh. So Invincible. Go through the multiverse and go, dude, he should he went he did. Yeah, actually he went to the well in the show, he did too. He's like, so your name is you you dress like a bat, and your name is just Batman? Yeah, and then he should have just freaking been like, I need you. Can I borrow you? Can I borrow you? Like this guy's name's Thrag. Just kills him. I'd be like, dude, I'd be like, we are so screwed. Like it's there's no hope.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

Just lost our best of him.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:18

Batman is gone, like it's over. Absolute Batman comes through the portal and it's like, never mind, never mind, we're good.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:28

That would be so funny. Thrack sees Absolute Batman's like, oh, hold up, I'm sorry. I didn't want anything here in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:34

He's like, he's like, you don't have conquest. Conquest ain't nothing to me. That means has the glove, conquest glove on. His freaking arm would fit in it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

Oh my gosh. I didn't even think about that. That's so good. Okay, so then we wrap up this issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

Yep. The final, the final story. One of those days.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:53

Yep. You wanna go you wanna talk about it?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:56

Yeah, all you.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:57

Finish her off, Clayton.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:58

I'll finish this off. So we see Spider-Man sitting on the bridge where Gwen Stacy died. We that's not specifically stated, but we can just assume so. Yeah. And you know, I even really like the art with Jim Chung, who did the art. It makes the Spider-Man look like he did in the Steve Ditko days with like the smaller eyes, the the the webbing on the sides. I think that's a really cool sound. Well, anyways, Superman's flying by and he sees Spider-Man, so he comes down and he's like, Hey, uh, what's going on? I see you sitting here on the edge, like, what's what's going on? And Spider-Man's like, I lost uh I lost a loved one, and it's just really hard. And um I I loved her a lot, and it's just really hard and she died because of me.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:40

Like, how do you deal with that? And Superman gives him a little motivational speech, and he's like, It is hard every day, and we're not gonna dismiss that. But every day you're gonna get up and you're gonna keep trying, and um you don't need a gold medal for who's the best griever or anything like that. Um he says that there's only two things certain in life, and that is that you will be born and that you will die. But what matters is what you do in between.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:07

And so you'll have good days and you'll have bad days, but we want to strive for the good days. Uh and he's like, better is good, we like better. And so Spiderman says, Yeah, we we do. And so then it ends, and gosh, I wish this story was longer.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:23

This that that is the biggest problem with this, is that when I was flipping through this and I saw that it's two pages. Or it's not, it's it's it's the front and back of one page. Like it's it deserves to be more. Like it it definitely deserves to be more. And it's like my thought on it is that it's been what 50 years since we had a Spider-Man Superman crossover? Like, it might be 50 more years until we get another one. We both could be dead by the time they do it again. If it's take if it does take 50 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

Well, if if that's the case, if it does take another 50 years, they'll both be out of public domain by that time, so anybody could ride it.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:56

I guess you're right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:57

Because uh Spider-Man uh Superman will be out of public domain in the next 10 years. Yeah. And then uh Spider-Man will be out of public domain in this in 2060. That's insane.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:06

So then I can make a movie and no one can stop me. Um I guess I could, I just can't make it. I'm gonna make the Spider-Man movie. I guess I still could, I just can't make money off of it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:17

Well it'd be a it'll you couldn't you'd have to do Spider-Man as he originally was in Amazing Fantasy 15.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:23

Yeah, I couldn't do modern Spider-Man. Yeah. But um But yeah, the the the problem with this last story is it it's so short, and it's like this is what we should have. Hope, like, because one of Spider-Man's greatest, like Spider-Man's kryptonite is is his own his own like torture, the torture that he gives to himself. He doesn't give himself a break when these bad things have happened. Right. And Superman should be there being like, hey, like, you know, like which we got. But this this story really I didn't want it to rank as low as it did on my list. It ranks so low because of the fact that it's it it's so it's nothing. There's nothing, there's not enough to feel to let the weight to the let the weight disappear. There's not enough, there's not enough there. There's not enough cheese on this hamburger. You know what I mean? Like I need more cheese, and it's like it's it's a one and done, and it's like, okay, you got that story by.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:17

And it's just like yeah, yeah, I I agree. So why don't we go ahead and rank them?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:23

Yeah, so we're gonna we're gonna rank the issue by itself, and then we're gonna do a big rank of all of the DC Superman Spider-Man from both sides. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

So uh I'll go first and I will rank this story. Okay. So number one for me from the Marvel crossover is our kryptonite, which is the main story uh that with Venomized Super. That's number one.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:49

And then number two, I'm going to put in as the the the Mysterio versus Superman vers featuring the thing, or as it's also called in the book, identity war.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:01

Oh wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

That's my second favorite.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

Um there, I I actually am going to put one of those days up there.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:13

Number three, wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:14

Yeah. Uh I really I know it's short, I know it's brief. I I just really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:20

It's yeah, it was sentimental. Um number four is the one thing with Miles Morales and Superman. I really did not expect to like that story as much as I did, but that's number four for me. Number five is The Metropolis Marvels, which is the Spider-Man Noir and Golden Age Superman.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:40

Then number six is the Lana Lang and Gwen Stacy story.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:47

Number seven is Remarkable, which is uh Ghost Spider and uh Supergirl.

unknown 1:23:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:54

Number eight is Symbiotes and Metropolis, and my least favorite is Ghosting, which is the Hobgoblin and Steel story.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

And uh we talked about this before we were recording. Basically, I would say anything after the Lana Lang and Gwen Stacy story is about all really tied in reality. They're all about that tier. Yeah. Um, but we were ranking them for the sake of the podcast, so I I just went ahead and ranked them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:21

So now um my ranking, I'm gonna give my rank as well. So our Kryptonite, which is our Venomized Superman story, is number one for me. It is my favorite story out of the whole book, and it is the one that I would have I would have cut half of these stories and just been like more of this story. Yeah. Stretch that story out, make more of it. Right. Um, so that's number one for me. Number two is Spider-Man Noir and Superman. That was a really good story. I didn't expect to like it as much as I did. Um, but I really enjoyed it. Number three is the Lana Lane Gwen Stacy story, uh, which is called Sweethearts. I think that was my third pick. Number four, Ghost Spider and Supergirl.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:56

Number five, Miles Morales and Superman. Number six, uh Mysterio versus Superman featuring The Thing. Number seven, uh Spider-Man Superman One of Those Days. Number eight, Symbiotes and Metropolis, and number nine, Hobgoblin versus Steel.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:11

So our only ones we have in common is the number one and eight and nine.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:16

Eight and nine. Yep. So we got a little bit of a We have a disagreement there. So um, do you want to go through why you picked why you ranked your things that way real quick?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:26

Sure. Um, I kind of base stories on with what we want with Superman. I I base my ranking on when I read these characters, what do I want from them? And was I given that in this story?

SPEAKER_04 1:25:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:39

So, what do you want with the Superman story? You want a story that is hopeful. You want a story that, yes, it shows off his power, but it also shows his greatest superpower, which is his heart.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:49

And and so that's where I try to rank these stories. The other one with Spider-Man, what do you want from a Spider-Man story? You want Spider-Man to be relatable. You want Spider-Man to uh really kind of hit at the heartstrings a little bit more. And again, you also kind of want to see Spider-Man do cool things.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:07

So I think one that hit all of those was the R Kryptonite, which is the Venomized Superman story. I think it hit every single point you're looking for. Yeah. Uh I put Identity War next, even though it's not so much of a super of a Spider-Man story, we got basically a Fantastic Four story. And you know I love the Fantastic Four. I was not a fan of the MCU movie, but that's a debate for another time. Yeah, I know I know we're divided on that. But I love the Fantastic Four, and it was a really sweet Superman moment. And I really loved that. Uh the whole thing was was really a love letter to Superman and who he is and his ability, right? So we we hit that there. One of those days, you're hitting both of those points. You're hitting Spider-Man being relatable. I think this is a story that you can come back to if you're having a really bad day.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:53

And you are you're grieving or you're remembering somebody that you lost or something, right? This is that story where you can read and you get both. You get Spider-Man being relatable, and you get Superman being hopeful. And even though it's short, it can still be one of those things on a bad day. If you were to read that story, you're like, Alright, Superman, yeah. You're right. I I pick it up, keep going. Yeah, you know? And so then um then you have like the Metropolis Marvels, which is the Spider-Man Noir and um Golden Age Superman. That one, you know, it it felt fun. That one was just fun. Yeah, and all of these stories I think are fun, but this one had uh very sentimental moments, and I said to you before we were recording as well that how is it that Marvel can write a better Superman than DC does? Yeah, because all of these Superman moments in this book have been so like yeah, sweet and like heartfelt, yeah. And and that's incredible. And so all the other stories that I would say rank at uh the same point, which is the Lana Lang, Gwen Stacy, this is the the ghost spider and supergirl, this is the symbiotes and metropolis. This is Hobgoblin and Steele. I put them all kind of in the same tier because either they missed the mark with one character, they're too short, or um just a variety of reasons. So they all kind of rank. I'm just not interested in these characters, like Steele and Hobgoblin. Yeah. This is the problem that we had with the DC one. I don't care about these characters. Yeah. I've never said, man, I wish Steele and Hobgoblin would team up together. I want them. No. So they all kind of rank in the same tier. Just either I'm just not invested. Supergirl's cool. I've never really been invested in Supergirl. Ghost Spider's cool, but is she cool because like of her concept, or is she cool because I really like the Into the Spider-Verse films, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:42

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

And so things like that. And that's why I kind of put them together. Even the Miles Morales and Superman, it's it hits both of those points relatable and a big heart. Right. And so what about you? Why did you rank yours the way you did?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:54

So obviously, number one, our kryptonite, it's Venom Superman was the big seller for me. I mean, it could have been a it could have been sucky, and I'd be like, well, it's got Venomise Superman. Right, right. I like it. Um, so that one was okay. Um, that would that was my favorite, so that's definitely number one for me. Number two, Spider-Man Noir and Superman. It felt really good to get in an old-timey story with with these two old-timey characters. Yeah. Um, you know, it it's it the art was very good. The art matched the time style, and it was just a really good story. I liked the the way it was the the way it was edited and laid out. Right. So it it just it flowed really good. I would have loved to see more of Spider-Man Noir and Superman actually doing things, but you know, we got it quickly, and that was it. And that was the most like action, I think, besides the first story that we've gotten out of almost all of these. So that was one of the other reasons why I put it up up uh in the second place. The third place, um where is the third place? Am I stupid? Oh, yeah, wait, it's right here. Oh yeah. Lana versus uh Lana versus Gordon.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:58

My favorite story.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:01

Dude, the the fight. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:04

Um she beat her to until she broke her neck.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:07

She hit her with a brick. Like she hit her with her purse in the bathroom. It's just like Ultimate Spider-Man. My favorite book ever. Um, I really liked this story. The reason I put it on my third was because it literally did what I wanted it to do. Right, right, right. You know, again, us talking about that story when we were the the last episode uh and coming up with that story with that cover really made me like super obsessed with that. And I was like, this book is exactly what I wanted it to be. Right. And, you know, getting to see them both just like like, you know, gush over these guys that they're like, oh they're nerds, but they're still cute and they're really good people, but they're you know, but then you see them being heroic and all this stuff. It was just it was a cool, it was a cool perspective at what's happening in this book from the outside.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:55

And so it it I just I was like, yeah, this is my third. This has to be my third. And plus uh Humbert Humber Humberto Ramos love his art. Incredible art. Great, he's I've actually met him, he's a good artist, he's really awesome. Um, so that was my third. My fourth was um Ghost Spider and Supergirl. So um, I just I thought that was a cute story. It was a very like that was a compact story, as compact as it could have been, and it it just that was if there should have been a short story, that's what it should have been. Right. Um, but all these trying to be big action stories and just being like, let's let's have the conversation before the fight, the the pep up talk, it's like every issue's doing that, and so that's why it's kind of um yeah, I liked it because it was just it was short and sweet. My fifth was the Miles Morales and Superman because I didn't actually it it crossed my mind whenever I saw the um the variant covers for this book. One of them was Superman and Miles Morales, and I I was like, you know, when you think Spider-Man and Superman, you don't think Miles Morales. So it was a surprise. It was kind of like um one of my favorite surprises from Donnie Kate's Venom run was when Venom is about to fight Grendel because he's in the city, and they're like, Spider-Man's coming to the scene, and you're thinking, oh, it's gonna be Spider-Man, and then it's Miles about like about to drop kicking from behind. It's just it's that flip, like you're like, oh, oh, it's this guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:12

You know, it's not you know well I think I think Brian Michael Benish did it because he wrote both of them. He did, he created Miles and he he wrote Superman.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:19

Yeah, so I I'm really glad they did that, but man, I would have I would have just really liked to have them fight because I'd love to see Superman react to his venom blast. Oh, that would be like cool. You know, he's like, Oh, the other Spider-Man doesn't do that. And he's like, Yeah, I got you know, and he's like, I can also do this, and he goes invisible. He's like, What the you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:34

If they would have had the stereotypical like hero versus hero fight, and like Miles would have like done the the venom bite to him, it would have shocked that could have been a good callback to the the iconic cover where Superman's standing there and the lightning is like hitting his chest and he's like it tickles. Yeah, that would have been really cool. He's like, huh, it tickles. That would have been so cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:53

Um, so that was my fifth. Okay. Um, my sixth favorite was the Mysterio versus Superman, the thing and more. Okay. And the reason I I I liked the storytelling of that one, I like the the loving and the hope and the you know right. But Spider-Man is in it for one panel. Yeah, and that was a big like okay, that that was my first because that was like what the fourth story? Yeah, and that was the first big like, okay, here we go. We have a Superman Spider-Man book, and Spider-Man is not in this story. We're telling a story with other characters. Like at that point, just have a Superman Meets the Marvel Universe book.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:27

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:27

You know what I mean? Like, because it just that was the big because again, it was like, yeah, it's a cute story, but that's not what I bought this for. Right. You know, I bought this because I wanted Superman and Spider-Man. Right. Or, you know, Lana and Gwen or MJ and and Lois. Like, I I like those because they directly relate to the characters, but the Fantastic Four and like it sort of relates to Spider-Man, but not to the you know, not to the level that you know, I don't know. I just I I see what you're saying. That's the only reason I ranked it low. Um my seventh was Spider-Man Superman One of Those Days. Now I rank this so low, which you know, part of me kind of wants to rank it a little bit higher than the thing, but I like the the kind of the love in that one a little bit more. There's just not enough in it. There wasn't enough in that story for me, you know. And I I I really I wanted to like it so much because that is one of my favorite moments of seeing Spider-Man deal with the death of Gwen. Right. Right? I love Spider-Man Blue. That's one of my favorite moments.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:24

That's who who wrote the story, Jeff Loeb.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:26

Yeah, and it's just like, but we should have gotten like we should have gotten so much. Why didn't why didn't we get an art style like that? Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:33

Like if he's writing the book, he should have got it like a well Tim Cell passed away, and Tim Cell did Spider-Man Blue.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:38

See, well there you see how stupid now. Um but um but yeah, like I don't know. I just like we should have gotten more to that. Like there should have been more more mental conflict in that, and there just there wasn't. It was just Superman comes down, he's like, Hey man, like I know things suck, and you can be hopeful and things will be fine. And then he leaves, and it's like that's not enough, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:03

That's that's fair. I mean that you know it's the same critique that I have, uh, but I still think it is a good story, it's a good story.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:10

I don't hate the story. Um, but one that I do hate is my number eighth pick, Symbiotes and Metropolis. Yeah, I I I was really disappointed in that one. Like, sure, it it's it's uh Jane Foster Thor and Wonder Woman, but again, that's not Superman Spider-Man, and it's like, you know, I don't even think Jane Foster Thor relates to Spider-Man at all. I don't think they've ever even really crossed paths. So like I don't know, it's just it it like and I was hoping like, well, you've got symbiotes, that's cool, but it's just it's just they're there. Right. There's nothing with it, and it's just like what this story was literally a waste of my time, it felt like right like and I get it, it's it's you know, like them talking, but again, I just don't care.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:51

But that should have been like a Wonder Woman Thor story, nothing. Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:54

They should yeah, that should have been Wonder Woman Thor or whoever else. Again, it they need to do a book called uh DC Meets Marvel, and these be the stories in that.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:03

And it needs to be like a series, not just uh yeah, not just like a one-off, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:07

And uh my final story was Hobgoblin versus Steele, because that story just was irrelevant to me, you know, and again, nothing against the writers, nothing against the artists, but it's just that story was just I that's not a story I was wanting, like that's not something I was you know, that was kind of similar to the Carnage and and um uh Jimmy Olson. Jimmy Olson story. Like, I was just like, that's not what do we need that for, you know? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:33

So with that said, bringing up Jimmy Olsen and Carnage, yep, let's let's remind our audience of the stories that we had in the DC at Marvel Crossover. So leading that book was Truth, Justice, and a great responsibility. Yep. Uh that was the main uh main story for that one. Uh then we have World's Finest, which was Lois Lane and Mary Jane.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:55

And Gambit.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:57

Yes, and Gambit. Try to forget that guy. Uh we have Pages, which is Superboy Prime and Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:05

We have Beyond the Cobwebs of Tomorrow, which is basically Batman Beyond and Spider-Man 2099.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:10

We have the Jimmy Olson and Carnage. Yep. We have the bridge, it's called the Bridge, but it's the paw Kent and Uncle Ben. We have it's called Biased, but it was Lois Lane versus J. John Jameson. And finally we have Blind Date with Power Girl and Punisher. Yep. So, how do you want to do this? Do you want to talk about uh just do our personal rankings of them all?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:32

Yes. Okay. I think, yeah, I guess I guess that's the only way to start.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:36

Okay, so I'm gonna stick with my same criteria, and this is how I ranked it. Like, we want Superman to have hope, inspiration, to show heart, but also show power. And we want Spider-Man to show um also relatability and and power as well. So here's my here's my ranking of all Spider-Man Superman stories from both crossovers. Yep. Our Kryptonite, the Venomized Superman, is number one of all stories. Then we have you're gonna be shocked by this one, the Mysterio versus Superman featuring the thing is my number two. Okay. Number three, the bridge, which is the podcast Uncle Ben story. You like that one a lot. I really like that one. I think it just hits different in this time of life as I'm about to be a dad. So I think it just hits different for that reason. Number four is Truth, Justice, and Great Responsibility. All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:28

And number five is one of those days.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:30

Okay, okay. That's fine. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:32

Yeah, number six is the one thing.

unknown 1:38:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:35

The Brian My the Brian Michael Bendis, Superman, Miles Morales. Then I have the world's finest, number six. Okay. Uh, which is Lois Lane and Mary Jane. Okay. And Gambit.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:45

And Gambit. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:47

Number seven is the Metropolis Marvels, which is Spider-Man Noir and um.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:53

Wow, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:55

Next is Sweethearts, which is Lana Lang and Gwen Stacy. I actually have Remarkable, the Ghost Spider and Um Supergirl Story.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:06

Then I have Blind Date, okay. Which is Power Girl and Punisher.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:11

Okay. Yeah, that's a good one. I like that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:13

Then I have Beyond the Cobwebs. And I'll and I'll go ahead and preface this. Pretty much from this point on are stories that I think are they're okay, but they are my least absolute least favorites. Yeah. Um and I could have gone without them.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:29

Um we have Beyond the Cobwebs, which is Batman Beyond and Spider-Man 2099.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:35

You know my reason why. And if you listen to it, it did not feel like a Superman story. It was it was just Batman Beyond and Spider-Man 2099.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:43

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:43

Then we have Symbiotes and Metropolis. Then we have Pages, which is the Superboy Prime and Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:51

Then we have Bias, the Lowest Lane versus J. John Jameson.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:56

The Hobgoblin and Steel Story. And then my least favorite of all the crossovers is Jimmy Olson and Carnage. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:03

Okay. Okay. So let's hear, let's hear yours. So mine is Our Kryptonite is number one. Um number uh two is Spider-Man, Noir, and Superman.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:16

Number three for me overall was uh Truth, Justice, and Great Responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:22

I thought that was the third, the third best. Yeah. Number four was uh where is it? I'm trying to find it. Um Beyond the Cobwebs of Tomorrow. I figured you really like that one. I did really like that one because I was excited to see 2099 and Batman Beyond uh work together. Number five was Lana and Gwen, Sweethearts. Number six was Ghost Spider and Supergirl.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:45

Number seven was Miles Morales and Superman. Okay. Number eight was where's number eight? Oh yeah, Blind Date, Power Girl and Punisher.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:54

You also really like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:55

I did really like that one. Um, because it had Paul in it, and I could have ate today if I came back. Um, he dead. Yeah, he's dead. He's dead forever. He's dead as hell, bro. Uh number nine uh is Mysterio uh V Superman featuring the thing. Number ten is Spider-Man Superman one of those days.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:15

Number 11 is World's Finest, Lois and MJ. So we actually flipped those. Yours, yeah, yours is yeah. Um number 12 is Pages, Superman, uh, Superboy Prime and Spider-Man. 13 is the bridge, Paw Kent, and uh Uncle Ben. 14, Bias, Lois Lane and uh J. Jonah Jameson. Fifteen is where's 15? Is that 14? Yeah, 14. 15 is where is 15? Am I too stupid?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:48

You've got Symbiotes and Metropolis, the Hobgoblin and Steele, or Jimmy Olson and Carnage for 15.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:55

Oh, I see. Oh yeah. Jimmy Olson and Carnage is 15.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:58

Ooh, okay, bold. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:59

It went up a little bit. Um Symbiotes and Metropolis was 16, and Hobgoblin versus Steele was 17.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:06

Okay. So Alright. So you said Jimmy Olson and Carnage went up a bit. Why?

SPEAKER_02 1:42:12

It went up a bit, only because of a few reasons. Okay. Um, one, it was um it, yes, the story did not serve a purpose, but it was nice to see a symbiote doing something like it was supposed to. Otherwise, because that's why symbiotes and metropolis, I was like, why, like, this is just like this isn't what symbiotes this isn't feel like symbiotes and metropolis. This feels like, you know, he's got the like it should have just been called uh what's his name?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:43

Uh Dark Side. Dark side, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:45

Sorry. It should have been called Dark Side with the Necrosword. Yeah. Like that should have all that should have all was that should have all it was called. Um, and I don't know. I think the our our discussion about it made me like it a little bit more because I was like, oh, there's a dead guy on the couch, and like it's a really stupid story, right? But it's kind of like comedically stupid.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:03

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:04

Um, so it definitely climbed the ladder because Hobgoblin and Steel just you know it's it's the same WTF thing, right? Like Hobgoblin and Steel and Jimmy Olson and Carnage, like those don't click very well. Um, but I think the Jimmy Olson and Carnage rose up a little bit just because I'm like, it's Carnage and he killed Jimmy Olson. That's kind of funny, I guess. You know, like so that's literally now could that be adjusted 100 yeah for sure. I just I I was having a hard time listing this. I was having a really hard time.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:34

It is hard. And again, once you reach a certain point, it's like, well, all these stories are basically the same for me. Like I could care less. So that's really hard. Now it's we want to rank them as one cohesive beyond the pool list.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:46

We do want to do one beyond the pool list ranking ranking, but I think our number one is set in stone for sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:53

It's just incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:55

Our number two, that's gonna be a little bit harder because my number two was the the thing, Superman and the versus Mysterio, and featuring the thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:04

Yeah, the thing uh featuring Superman versus Mysterio.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:07

But your number two was the Spider-Man Noir. I am I'm willing, and and I I admitted earlier that I am biased towards Jeff Johns and Gary Frank because they did Doomsday Clock, right? They did Superman Secret Origins, which is an incredible story. They're just for me one of my favorite creative teams ever. Yeah. So I admit I am a little biased towards them.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:29

Uh so I would be flexible with saying that for Beyond the Poolist, our number one is our kryptonite, and number two would be Metropolis Marvels.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:39

Okay. I I think that will be that'll be I'm I'm okay with that as well. I just I just it's not that I don't like the thing story, it's just it just again, it doesn't have Spider-Man in it. Like it's got one panel, he says one thing, and all it is is oh. Or he says ouch. Right. And it's like as he's dodging a pole. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just like, this ain't you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:59

Zing the chief. Man, that's a callback to a meme that's not been around for a while. Zena Chief. All right, so for number three, what are you thinking? What was my number three is one of those days, and your number three was truth. I I will admit, truth, justice, and great responsibility could be a solid number three. That's well.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:20

But also yours could be two.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:23

I don't I don't mind uh one of those days. I just one of those days didn't have a lot of sauce. Because truth, just truth, justice, and responsibility was like the main story of the original, and and it was like, oh yeah, we're getting that. But I also had a some props with it being like I lied to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:37

I'm sorry. Would you lie? My number three was actually the bridge.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:41

Oh I'm so sorry. I looked at my notes wrong. Okay. Um, the bridge was really good because it's a very emotional pawkint, Uncle Ben. Paw Kent and Uncle Ben. And I'm I think I'm willing to bring that closer to the front because that was a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:56

But not for number three or number three.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:58

No, uh for number three. Okay, okay. I I think I'm willing to like because it's good. Um, especially since like number one, our kryptonite definitely stomped Truth Justice and Great Responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:09

You know, so would you be okay with Truth Justice and Great Responsibility number four? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:14

Okay. What was number what was my number four? My number four was um uh Blind Date? No, Beyond the Noble Webs. No, Beyond the Cobwebs, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:22

Okay. I'm gonna that's where we're really gonna differ on that one. That's okay. Uh because I just yes, if the book was titled Batman Superman or Batman Spider-Man, absolutely. I get it I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:36

I get it too. I get it too.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:38

Yeah Superman was just there to be like, hey, I'm a part of the Legion of Superheroes.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:42

He's like, I'm here so I can so we can do this tie-in. Yeah. If it wasn't for me being here, this would happen. Right. Yeah. Um what was what's the what's the alternative?

SPEAKER_01 1:46:49

It's Batman, it's Cabos of Tomorrow, and I would say the Mysterio versus Superman.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:59

That is tough. That's where we're different, right? But also this has Spider-Man in it.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:03

It uh it does.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:04

You know what I mean? So, like, yeah, it doesn't have Superman, but it has Spider-Man. I guess that's the thing is your story has Superman but not Spider-Man. My story has Spider-Man but not Superman.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:13

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:14

That's tough. But what do you like better? Do you like the the futuristic Spider-Man and Batman Beyond? Or do you like Superman using his his his soul of hope to calm the Hulk down and to kind of construct with the thing?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:29

Well, see, okay, here's here's why I'm gonna argue that I think it needs to be the the Mysterio and Superman story. Okay. I'm arguing that because if you step back and you think about the story itself, the story is really about the thing wrestling with himself.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:49

It basically says I'm angry at myself all the time. And if you even if you look back, the story has a heart, it has a purpose. The Beyond the Cobweb story is just a cool moment that we've wanted forever. Yeah. So it's a cool moment versus heart. What is gonna weigh your story more? Yeah. And I guess that could get a deep conversation about comics. Do you want a s do you want a story that's like emotional, that's hitting all the right beats, or do you want one that's just packed with cool moments? Yeah, you know, and that's where I'm gonna argue this point is that the the thing story is what I'm gonna call it, is is filled with heart. It's filled with emotional moments. But the bat and beyond is just that's a cool moment. I've always wanted to see that. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:39

Now, but how how do we have the balance of that? Like, we've got a lot of good heartfelt moments, but we don't have a lot of the cool, like, oh I want to see that. We did, we got Venomized Superman, which was definitely like a oh, I wanted to see that, right? But like, hmm, I don't know. This is this is this is difficult. This is this is hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:57

I knew it was gonna come down to this, and this we're gonna have um because I I really think I I I I I just and even Batman Beyond's not in the story for a long period of time, right? He's only there for a brief moment. Yeah, now now try to convince me otherwise. Okay, I've got my cup of tea right here. Yeah, convince me otherwise, change my mind.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:22

That's that's rough. That's hard. Yeah, that's really hard. I don't know. I don't I don't know. I I have no idea. I would love like people coming. I would like people if you're listening and if you've made it this far, thank you. Um, can you comment what you think? Comment what you think is better. Um the episode ends right here. Yes. Nobody'll ever know. My favorite is This is over. It's like next week to be on the bolus where we figure out what Paul's favorite is.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:52

That moment in Toy Story was like, there was never another episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:56

Yep. That's it. Yep, yep. Show die the next day. Clayton had his child and Paul got addicted to drugs and they never spoke again. One of those is actually happening, and it's not me being into drugs.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:13

Thank goodness. We get you into a rehab.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:17

Clayton caught the Venom books. They're making me go horrible. Um final decision. I don't know. I don't know. They I I will say this. Where does where does the thing story take place in?

SPEAKER_01 1:50:36

What do you mean? I think it takes place in um Is it in New York or New York? I think it's in New York.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:41

Okay. Well, that's still in like this the I this'll this is this is the final decision. Okay. The thing story. Because the 2099 story takes place in Gotham 2099. It doesn't even take place in a Spider-Man Spider-Man area. Okay. So sure, we get Spider-Man, but they're both put in in a different location. And at least we're, I don't know, because like that's a third-party location. Right. At least in this story, we're getting s New York, which is closer to Spider-Man. So we're getting more of both of them in the same spot than we are with that one where it's like, yeah, they're there, but like, you know. Right. I don't know. I'm still a little disagreeing on that. But you know what? I'll let you have it. I'll let you have it.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:25

So I'll put Beyond the Cobwebs as number six then.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:27

Number six, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:28

Alright. So we're settled there then.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:30

Alright, so for number seven, you had the one thing. The one thing? Oh, I have Miles Morales and Superman. Yes, yes. And then I'm called. Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:42

I have Remarkable, which is uh the Supergirl Ghost Spider. I'm easily willing to.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:47

Honestly, I'm I'm willing with you too. Really? I like the Ghost Spider better, personally. Okay. I like Ghost Spider better than wait a minute, wait. Did I rank that one before? No, I ranked Ghost Spider at number six.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:58

Uh well, I guess we were looking at number seven. So why don't we put go we'll go ahead and go with Ghost Spider. I think Ghost Spider. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:03

Yeah, I like it better than the Miles Morales one. Okay. And you liked it better as well. So no disagreement there.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:09

Alright. So I'll go ahead and mark that off.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:11

So next will be Miles Morales since we remain friendly. Okay. No wait. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:16

So yes. So I have one of those days, but you have that as ten. But we can do the Miles Morales. That's definitely up there.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:23

You like that one better? Let's do that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:24

The Miles.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:25

Okay. And then that's here. And then number nine on our ranking. I have one of those days next. What do you got next?

SPEAKER_02 1:52:35

Nine for me was the thing story.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:41

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:42

So I guess one of those days will be next for me. Yep. Because where it's going to start getting easier. It's going to be like, oh yeah, yeah, well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:49

Alright, number ten. I got world's finest.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:53

Ten for me was one of those days. Okay. Oh, so now we gotta figure out a new one. Yeah. So then, well, I guess we'll just move on to the next one. Okay. Because we are we both have those number 10. Wait, do we do Lana?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:04

We do not have Lana up there. So the ones that the stories that we have not ranked yet is the world is Lois and MJ, Lana and Gwen, the Power Girl and Punisher, the Symbiotes and Metropolis, Pages, Biased, Ghost, Hobgoblin and Steel, and then Jimmy Olson Carnage.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:22

I think Lana should be next. Okay. I like I like that one. I'll give you a out of the rest of the stories that are left, that one's like my favorite. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:31

That is also after we got one or two more that we could put on here, and then everything after that is like I don't really care.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:39

So the question is: do we put number 11 as either Lois and MJ, or do we do it as the Punisher and Power Girl?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:49

Here's my problem with both these stories. Okay. Lois or Power Girl and Punisher are it is a cute story. It is written well. Right. It is a well-written story. It is. But it is not connected to Spider-Man Superman.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:02

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:03

The uh world's finest with Lois and MJ is more connected to Spider-Man Superman, but I hate the fact that Gambit gets Gambit gets a freaking splash page.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:13

And nobody else does.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:14

And no one else does. Which I guess if you want to look at it story-wise, like if you I don't know, how do we do we want to rank it by story? Do we want to rank it by consistency? Because story-wise, Power Girl and Punisher, because the story was more intriguing. It was cute. And it like, I was like, I'm interested in reading more of this story.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:31

Gambit really brings down that story.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:33

He brought it down really hard. Thanks, Jim Lee. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:36

Jim Lee, I'm Jim Lee. Come on, man. Why'd you do that? Why did you oh here's my opportunity. Are you sure?

SPEAKER_02 1:54:45

Jim Lee, he's here.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:46

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:48

Clayton, he's gonna kill me with the cards. He's got Gambit's staff and he's gonna hit me with it. Bulk. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:55

I I will say let's do the Punisher and Power Girl next.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:58

You think so?

SPEAKER_01 1:54:58

I think so.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:59

Okay, why?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:00

Because it's a because the only thing bringing that down is Paul.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:06

And Paul only shows up briefly. Yeah. And it's a cute story. And I I I'm Gambit just really brings down that story, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:14

Yeah, well that and also uh Lois Lane and MJ are like walking through this destro like this this horrible, like, like, it's almost it's like they should be trying to get out of there. They should be like chit-chatting while they're like, it's not like a funny thing. Right. You know what I mean? Like, it's more funny, like that's why I like the Lana and Gwen story better, was because it's they're in a realistic setting having this conversation. Right, you know, and they're looking, they're they're they're seeing them doing their thing. Right. That's the that's the part that's makes that realistic. This is not realistic at all. No, and I get it, like a man sticking to walls isn't realistic either. But like they're not gonna casually be talking while they're dangling in a bus on a bridge. Right, right, right. Being like, oh yeah, I've been here before. Like, you know, and then on top of it, gambit ruining it. Right. Like, eh.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:59

Okay, so I think we're in agreement. Pyro puncture. Alright, and then next. So here's where things begin to get much easier, I think. So all that we have left is one we hate the most. So I all we have left is Symbiotes and Metropolis, Pages, the Lois versus Jonah, and uh the Hobgoblins still, and Jimmy Olson Carnage.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:26

I so let's see, pages, which was uh I think Pages was good.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:30

Okay, I think it was good too. I thought pages were pretty good. So we'll put that there.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:34

Yeah. And then we have uh Bias, Jimmy Olson Carnage, Symbios and Metropolis, and Hobgoblin vs. Steel. Yeah. Those are the four we have left. What do you think? Do you still think do you think Carnage and Jimmy Olson does it not raise up anymore for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:56:55

No, one funny m joke in our last episode does not raise it up anymore for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:02

But you like okay, and I can see why you like other like I can see why you like symbiotes and metropolis, because at least there's some there's some character conversation between like Wonder Woman and Jane Foster Thorne.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:16

But again, it's not related to Super Inspire. Honestly, the next one I would put is bias, which is the Lois Lane and J. Joan Jamison, because the art is really good in that.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:23

Yeah, and I like the argument. Yeah. I like Lois being like, well, you just you just don't like this. Right. And she's like calling him out, like two news reporters calling them each other out. I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:34

So this leaves Hobgoblin still, Jimmy Olson Carnage, and Symbiotes and Metropolis.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:42

I think Symbiotes and Metropolis is next. Just because of the deep, the deepness of that story. But also, that doesn't really relate to Spider-Man very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:50

No, and it's hard to So you can also not have that.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:54

I'm I'm okay with that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:55

I'm okay with that one. Yeah. I really like the art for this too.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:59

Um I I and the ending page of all the heroes is nice. It's a touch, it's it's a far more touching story than the other two.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:07

Yeah. Alright, so Hobgoblin and Steel or Jimmy Olson Carnage. Jimmy Olson Carnage.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:15

I think we we both have them in like that order, right? Hobgoblin Steel and then Jimmy Olson Carnage, or do you mine was Jimmy Olson Carnage.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:24

I thought that one was better than Symbios and Metropolis. Just because it felt like at least it was like Spider-Man, like I don't know, like I see.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:34

I have I have more than one problem with that story. I have the problem also that Spider-Man's like Hugh Hefner in it. He's like got black cat on one arm and he's got Mary Jane on the other, and he's like, just call it Spider Hyphen Man. Yes, God, don't don't you look like a tourist dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:50

Like, you know, don't mind me.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:52

I'm just taking my baddies and we're gonna go out here and be cool. You know, that's not Spider-Man. So I think that's my problem. And then oh, don't go down any alleys that might like look weird. What's he do? Immediately goes down an alley that has so I don't know, it's it's tough.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:11

I think Hobgoblin and Steel is the next. Okay. I think and I think Jimmy Olson Carnage is last. I think you saying that convinced me. It's like, well, at least the characters are in character. Right. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, at least it's like at least it would be like, yeah, Hobgoblin would be stealing some tech from this corporation, and then they get stopped by Thor. I don't think Thor should have been there. I think it was just like a red herring to be like, oh look, it's a red cape coming. Right. It must be Superman, and then it's like, oh no, it's Thor.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:40

I think it's also because Louise Simonson and her husband Walt Simonson worked on Thor in the 80s. Yeah. So I think that has something to do with why Thor showed up too.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:48

Yeah, yeah. So there you have it.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:51

Our rankings are.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:52

Yep, let's do it. Final rankings.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:54

R. Kryptonite.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:56

The Spider-Man Noir and Golden Age Superman. Paw Kent and Uncle Ben. Then we have Truth, Justice, and Great Responsibility. We have Mysterio versus Superman featuring the thing and more. Beyond the Cobwebs, The Ghost Spider and Supergirl story, Miles Morales and Superman, One of Those Days, Lana Lang and Gwen Stacy, Power Girl and Punisher Blind Date. We have the Lois Lane, Mary Jane. We have Superboy Prime and Spider-Man. We have Bias, which is Lois Lane and J. Joan Jameson, Symbiotes and Metropolis, Hobgoblin and Still, and finally Jimmy Olson Carnage.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:34

It really sucks that that I mean, like it sucks that that's the story, like that compare. Like, I don't know. It kind of sucks. It's like who knew that that would be the one. No, it doesn't suck. Who cares? That was a bad story. That wasn't good. That was a useless. Get that out of it.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:53

So overall, Marvel did a better job of N DC. This was a great crossover. I really enjoyed these stories far more than I enjoyed the DC ones.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:01

I yeah, I agree. I think this this one was better. We were proven wrong. They they listened. You know what happened? They listened to the show. That's right. And they were like, we gotta step it up. And they stepped it up in like two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:12

Yep. And then they shipped it out, and made all the artists redo the stories, everything. It was fun. You know, just one note. I keep noticing this on you have the Carrie Andrews. I do have the Carrie Andrews Spider-Man Superman. Mary Jane is Venom in that code.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:24

Did you notice that? Uh if it's actually a wraparound. Yes. And Venom is on the back biting Lex Luther's butt.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:30

Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:33

You're not thinking about the check. Yeah. And it's uh it's weird and it's got like it's hang on.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:40

But the the art is great. It's a great cover, but I just oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:46

I remember noticing that, and I was like, why is regular venom on here and also uh MJ Venom? I was like, uh and also I just realized she's fighting Robot Man.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:57

I can't see. Is that it's um it's metallo.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:02

Oh, okay. Well there you go then. Oh, okay, yep. And then you have um you have Carnage fighting Superboy, yep, at the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:09

So that's that's that is a sick cover.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:11

That is a really cool cover. Yep. And you got Rec Rap in there for what reason? I don't know. Um he's another Spider-Man character that just was put into the book for whatever reason. But yep, so uh uh theory confirmed uh Venom bites uh uh Lex Luther in the ass.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:26

I like butt.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:27

We like butt. Lex's butt looks good, Eddie.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:36

No, no, I have no control of the time right now.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:40

So there you have it. There is our ultimate review on Superman Spider-Man number one. And also check out our Instagram. We will post our list on Instagram. So that's kind of the reason why we decided to do that. That might have taken a long time, but you know what? It deserved it.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:54

It deserved it. So let's move on to something else DC related. We got some big news this week.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:58

Whoa, this is the most exciting thing. I'm so excited about this.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:01

This is crazy. We are talking about Clayface.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:05

The movie.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:05

The movie.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:06

We are getting a R-rated Clayface film. It is officially rated R.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:10

And when it first got announced, I was like, oh my gosh, Clayface, why are we doing this? This is so stupid. But then the trailer, the the posters dropped first.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:19

Poster dropped first.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:20

And so day the the day one, I uh I think it was what like Monday, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:25

Um, I this came out probably what? When this came the trailer came out Wednesday, so Tuesday the posters came out.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:31

Did it not come out yesterday?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:33

No, today because today's Friday, because we talked on the phone before. Yeah. Um so, anyways, the posters released, and you have these posters saying uh, you know, um this this guy, and I can't remember his name, but it's the guy who becomes Clayface, is was in a horrible accident.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:50

Yeah. Is it Basil Carlo? I'm hoping it's Basil Carlo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:54

Was in a horrible accident, and and uh let's our prayers and thoughts are with him. Yeah. And then the next day they repost the same thing, but it's like melting.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:02

Yeah, it's the same picture, and it's it's him melt. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:06

And then they release the big poster, which is like the uh profile. It's a yeah, and his face is like just dripping down.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:12

It looks his jaw is just continuing. He's got that big clay face mouth, um, which is so cool. And we get the trailer. We don't get much, it's a teaser trailer, but we we get to see we see him in the hospital after this awful what what's happened in the in the show at least, uh, the mafia gets a hold of of Basil and they they destroy his face. Right. They cut his face up and they beat him and they mess his face up. And he's an actor, right? So his face is his is his selling point to get a job. Right. So right there messes with his entire life. Yeah. And because of that happening, he is having visions of like of what he used to look like and him and his popularity. And then in the trailer we see uh we see them actually cutting his face. He's like strapped to a bed and they're taking a scalpel down his cheek. And then we get uh another cut of like them injecting himself with, I guess, the the the experimental clay skin regeneration stuff, and then we see him looking in a mirror and he looks normal again, and then his face is melting. Yeah, and oh my gosh, like it this it's a it's a it's an interesting trailer because it cuts between back to the same shot repetitively, which I've never seen a trailer do before. And we see a lot of intercut scenes, we see one of him, it's his shadow on a brick wall, and he raises his head and he gets that long arm with the big spike the the spike ball on the end of it. And the final shot, which is the the freakiest thing I've ever seen, it gave me chills, um, is him laying in a bathtub and his uh his he's just kind of looking off and he wipes his face, and when he wipes his face downwards, it's just it all melts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:53

Whoa. And then yeah, yeah. So when when I saw that and we were talking about it, I said, dude, that's like your movie.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:00

And that that's literally what I was kind of shooting for. Yeah, like I that that it I guess that's also why it gave me goosebumps because I was like, that's what I was trying to do with fragments, you know. So like getting to see that in a professional film is like, oh man, I'm so jealous. Like they did they did exactly what I wish I could have done.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:18

James Gunn has confirmed this is in the DC Us, this is the same universe as Superman.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:23

It takes place before Superman.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:24

Yes, takes place before it is chronologically the first uh DC film. Yeah, so it takes place uh even before Creature Commandos, which if you not watch Creature Commandos, Clayface is in that. I don't is it in the universe? It is in the DC universe. It is it is the first thing that came out regarding the DC universe, but Clayface is the first one that takes place in the universe. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:46

I didn't know that. Okay. Is it the same actor?

SPEAKER_01 2:06:48

Um no, it is it is as far as I know, it's not. But it's excuse me, you you it's uh you just have a voice actor. You don't have uh you don't see Clayface's regular face.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:59

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:00

So it's just a voice actor. Okay, okay. Uh so I don't that's not Is it live act? It's not live action, isn't it? No, Creature Commandos is animated. It's very, very R-rated, yeah, but very good.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:09

Okay, cool. I didn't know if that was tying into the movies and stuff too.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:12

Uh it it probably will eventually, and uh, I strongly recommend watching Creature Commandos. Gabriella liked Creature Commandos, and she doesn't like Invincible. Interesting. Well, she doesn't like Invincible because it's gorgeous.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:22

I'm right there with you. Lisa's the same way.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:24

So uh she but Gabriella really liked uh Creature Commandos. Like it was a weekly thing. We were sitting down watching it uh when it was coming out. But Clayface is in it, and uh it might explain why he kind of does what he's doing, and I'm not gonna ruin it in case you watch it.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:36

Okay, yeah. Um I I'm I have been excited for this film ever since they announced it. Okay. When they announced that they were doing a clayface film, I I was the my weariness came from Joker. Um, Joker's one of my favorite films, but I remember when they dropped the trailer, I was like, oh, this doesn't look that good. And then I remember like going to see it, me and my dad went and watched it, and the only thing I could think of was like, this is not gonna be good, but let's just see what happens. And then it was amazing. You know, it's one of the best films I've I'd ever seen. So I when they announced Clayface, I immediately was like, Oh, we're we're gonna get the same, we're gonna get a similar effect. Like, this is if this is rated R and it's got that dark tone like Joker had, I'm not worried about it. And clearly it is. Right. Um, actually, funny enough, this was not in the list of movies to be made in the DC movie. This was not a project that was planned. Um the guy who wrote and directed it, I don't I forget his name. Um, he went to James Gunn and he was like, Hey, I have a concept for a clayface movie. And he pitched it. He did there was no script yet. He pitched it and he heavily it was heavily influenced from the uh Batman the Animated Series cartoon. And he pitched it to James Gunn, and James said, write that and like make this a horror movie. This should be an R-rated horror movie. Yeah, and that was you know, kind of went with what he was already describing. He was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he wrote the script and he sent, he gave it to James, and James was like, Yep, let's do it. So literally, just just like that, there this is where this movie came from. It came from passion, which is what I'm excited about the most. And I'm gonna say it here and now. I'm more excited for this than I am Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:11

I'm more excited for this movie than I am Spider-Man. No, not that like I'm I'm not excited for Spider-Man. It's just this is a character we've never seen on the screen before. We've never seen him in a live-action film. Clayface has been one of my favorite characters in the Batman universe, in the OG Batman universe. Clayface has definitely been a favorite of mine. I have his figure on the table before this. Um and um, you know, I think the like I'm a big nerd for the mature, adult-rated, like dark, superhero stuff. Right, right. Right. Now, like, not the boys, that's a little much, but I want to see like a character like Clayface, right? Body horror and clayface perfectly matches. That's a perfect match. Seeing that, I I just I all I can think about is what are they gonna do? Like, I can't even I can't even fathom what they're gonna do. And and I'm a big sucker for horror movies that make me uncomfortable. You know, I think slasher movies are lame. I think I don't really like those because it's the generic whatever. But this being a body horror, an actor who's trying to like fix his problem, and then he thinks he does, and then it's like it's even worse than it was, and now he's this big monster. It's just I I I want to see it. And I I don't think Batman is in this.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:24

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:25

Um, which I think is okay, right? I'm not mad about that. Um I'm so excited. I I have not this is my most anticipated movie of the year for sure. Wow, really? I'm very excited about this. I'm not like this Triumph Spider-Man, this triumph's Doomsday. Like, I'm very, very excited for this film.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:46

Man, wow, okay, all right. Uh gosh, I don't even know how to follow that up.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:51

Like Are you sure?

SPEAKER_01 2:10:53

Yes, yes, I'm sure. Uh uh man, I I'm I'm speechless at that. I don't know how to so is it just because of all those reasons you just listed? Just I think it's just you know just because it's fresh and new and it's doing something horror-related.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:11

And it it's it's it's got the film, the film, like you know, I I make movies, so like I have my own film, I guess, like theme, style, style and theme that I like. And this is hitting it perfectly on the looking at this, I see a lot of fragments in it, right? Because fragments was, you know, like it was it's got that uncomfortable topic, uncomfortable, like, oh, that's that's hard to look at.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:37

Look, and Clayface is immediately going right out the gate with it. I mean, the whole trailer is him in a hospital bed with his face messed up and he's got bandages, and he's got like like you look at that and it it's it's uncomfortably long, you know. Like that's what I like about movies. Okay. That those are the type of horror movies that I think are good because they make you feel something that's deep down that we avoid feeling.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:59

Right. You know, I w I I'll give you this. I am more excited about this than I expected. And I am I will admit here and now that I am more excited about it than Doomsday. Doomsday is to be fair, Doomsday is very low on my excitement chart, anyways.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:16

Um so I will say I am more excited for this, which is again very surprising for me because I don't like horror stuff. Yeah. And uh but yeah, you don't, you don't. But it actually does look very good. I'm very intrigued. And again, without Batman, what kind of story are you going to tell? With Joker, I was very weary about Joker anyways. Yeah. And then you were like, no, dude, you have to go watch it. You have to go watch it. Come on. Yeah. And you basically dragged me into the theater. And I and I'll admit, when you took me to go watch Joker, I went in with the mindset. Did you see that together? We did. I forgot. Okay, I'm so sorry. Uh I went in with the mindset, this movie's gonna suck.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:50

And I was like, I'm I'm ready to go to war with you basically on why Joker's gonna suck.

SPEAKER_03 2:12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:56

And I was very surprised. Yeah. Uh it was it was much better. Now, neither one of us watched Joker 2 because I we both think they just blew it out of the way.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:04

Yeah, they they purposely made it a musical, or he the director wanted to do something different, so he made it a musical to do that, but they there was no need for that sequel, and I just I I choose to believe it doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01 2:13:16

Right. Um but but better than Brand New Day.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:21

Yeah. And and it's not it's not because we're gonna talk about some news that was announced with Brand New Day, and I don't think that news affects that. Okay. It's just I've seen a Spider-Man movie. You know, that's there's plenty of Spider-Man movies, and it's and it's not that I'm tired of Spider-Man movies, it's just that I've never seen a Clayface movie. Yeah, I've never seen Clayface in a movie, and it's like you know, the way the DC is going, well, first of all, I love it because James Gunn is allowing people to come to him and say, Hey dude, I have this idea for this movie. I I would love to do this. Right. And it's not just like it's not just that, it's that they're pitching it and he goes, Hey, write a script. And then they do, and they come back and they've got the script to like, hey, please read this. Here's the script. And he's like, Yeah, I'll fund it. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:14:03

And see, that's the thing, because when the Supergirl trailer dropped, a lot of people have been like, Well, this is just this is just James Gunn doing Guardians of the Galaxy. James Gunn is not doing Supergirl, it's a different director. Yeah. Um, but they're like, this is just James Gunn doing um Guardians of the Galaxy again, but with Supergirl. Yeah. And I'm not gonna watch it for that reason. Uh and he's just gonna turn the whole DCU into Guardians of the Galaxy, which I don't think so. So I loved Superman, love Superman, and so I'm I'm really excited for Supergirl this year. But um I I think this proves those people wrong. Yeah, that he is going to tell stories across whatever as long as it's a good story. He's doing what Marvel didn't do for so many years. They are just pump it out, pump it out, we don't even care. And and just we have to have something on screens. Yeah, it doesn't even have to be good. And DC is like, no, we want stuff on screens, but we want it to be good. Right. And uh I I don't know, man. It looks good, it looks good.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:59

I I think, and you know, again, that that thing of he's not afraid to like let films do what they're supposed to do, right? Because, you know, this was this this was the situation with Venom too, was that they made it PG 13 because they're like, oh, well, it'll get more butts and seats. Right. Making a movie rated R restricts how many people can see it. And it's like, yeah, but no, like, you know, like it's adults see it. And adults can like you can let your kid go in there. Like you have to approve it or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:25

Well, it's just the same thing there for like Deadpool and Wolverine. Look how good it did, and it's R-rated.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:29

Yeah, and you know, this is this is that. Like, cause I because he it's not a well, it I guess it is official because uh interviewer asked James, they were like, hey, like, is this gonna be like, are you thinking about R rated? He's like, Oh yeah, it's R-rated for sure. Okay, like it's no, it's R-rated. Like he's you know, so but just the fact that there's no question, right? You know, there's no question in that. There's just like, yeah, this is this is this has to be that dark. Yeah, yeah, it should go there. My mom, you know, I had told her, like, like Elise, I showed the trailer to Elisa, she was like, I can't go see that with you. I'm sorry. Elise can't do body horror.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:59

Um, and my mom was like, Oh, they're making a clayface movie, he's so cool. And I was she's like, Can I see the trailer? And I put it on TV. She was like, Oh, this is like not, this is like dark. And I'm like, Yeah, like I think they should do this. Like, I think this is what movies need. Like, you know, because again, this stuff is for adults more than kids. And the kids grow into it, right? They will. Like, if there's a kid, like, yeah, it sucks that there's like if there's a clayface fan that's a child that they can't go see this because it's too dark. Right. But when they grow up, they'll appreciate like I'm so glad it was good. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:16:30

Think about like the dark night, right? Well, I I don't know about you, but when I was growing up, I was told you can't watch The Dark Knight yet, it's a little too dark, so you need to wait a few years. And after a few years passed, and I finally watched it, I'm like, that was good. That was that's in that's really good. So, like Aurora, you know, for example, my daughter, um, who's not here yet, but we're super excited for her to be here soon. Is that um, you know, 50 years from now when she can have a boyfriend, uh they can go watch Clayface in 50 years. Oh, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:02

She'll be lo she'll be like 49. She'll be 50 years old, literally.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:07

So um, yeah, they can watch Clayface together and she can be like, that's a good movie. Yeah, but I'm just kidding. She's she's no, I get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:13

But yeah, like you shouldn't be, we shouldn't make movies for we shouldn't water a movie down for kids. Right. You know, because kids grow into those things, right? Like, make them for adult. There there are kids' movies, right? They have entertainment. They've got Spongebob and they've got movies on TV and they've got cartoons like Batman the Animated Series, you know, like, oh, well, this is you can watch this version of it. Right. But we need entertainment for adults. Yes. You know, adult, adult comic readers and adult filmmakers should have something that's like, you are more mature, you like this need we need to make this more mature for you guys, you know, because it relates to us more, you know? Yeah. So I'm very excited for Clayface. I'm all right, again, it I'm hoping it's my movie of the year. I hope that it turns out to be good. I don't, I don't think it I don't think it will be a disappointment. I think because James Gunn is letting the director do what he wants and be very into it. Because James Gunn isn't a part of it. He's just he's just approved. He's just the approval, yeah, he just produces it, approves it, and gives him money. Like, hey, here's all your money. Go do what you want.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:10

Well, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. The two movies I'll go watch with you this year, if not three, I'll go watch Brand New Day with you, but I'll go watch Clayface with you too. Go see Clayface with you. I'll go watch Clayface with you. Are you sure? Yeah, I'll go. Are you sure? If nobody else goes, I'll go with you.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:26

Okay. All right. I mean, you I know you can't do horror, but well, I think also it being a comic book character. I think, yeah, it's not gonna be like you you know what you're in for. Right. But I don't, we don't really.

SPEAKER_01 2:18:36

Because you know, you know, we It's not gonna be, I don't think it's gonna be anything that's gonna make me like go home and shiver and shade. Like, I hope he's not outside. Gabriel hold me. Like pouring holy water all over our our place. It's like in there drinking a little bottle holder. You know, so no, I don't think so, but I'll go watch it with you.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:55

The movie's over, you turn to me, and my jaw is melted onto the floor. You're like, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 2:19:03

So the other movie I'll go watch with you is Brand New Day. Brand New Day. And we have some news. We have to talk about that. We've been beaten around the bush. Yep. So the unfortunate news about Brand New Day is we are not going to see Man Spider because Disney is afraid of being too scary.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:21

What are we doing, guys? Like, and that's the how are we gonna tell this story? If we're doing the no er it's uh not what story? It's the other. The other. If we're doing the other, which is what the story's called, and he's mutating, that Bruce Banner says he's mutating, right? We have to get Manspider. Right. That's the climax of the of that story. Right. That's the oh my gosh, I can't wait to see this. I can't wait to like, you know, the climax with the black suit is like, oh, I can't wait to see it become venom, right? Right? You can't just cut that out. And and like the the whole point is is that someone, uh, I guess it was like a whistleblower or someone in Disney confirmed, like, yeah, we're not getting Man Spider. It's too dark, it's too, it's too much, and this is too friend family friendly of a movie. Sure, Spider-Man's a family-friendly character.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:09

But this movie already has like that darker tone, anyways. Yeah, you have Punisher in it, dude. Right. Punisher's not family friendly. No, you know? I I think, um, and this this is coming from an insider who was um, I think it was somebody from the visual development team who was let go. And that's one of the things that we kind of also got bad news of is that Disney has laid off their entire visual development team, including Andy Park, who has worked on Marvel movies since 2008 with the first Iron Man. Yeah. Uh they have fired their entire entire visual development team because of AI.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:47

They're replacing them for the moment, they're replacing them with um freelance editors, um, free freelance physical effects, which if you don't know what that means, that means they just hire you for the job, they pay you, and then you're done. You're not a permanent Disney hire. You're just like, I'm gonna pay you to do this and that's it. Right. And then yes, and then they're gonna replace with AI.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:05

And then the CEO said that they want to start integrating AI.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:10

And if they do that, if we start getting AI Marvel films, I'm done with Marvel. Yeah. I'm just I'm gonna say it. I can't, I, you know, I'm a filmmaker, right? Like it's it's my job, it's my dream to to be right a writer and to tell and build these films because they're important. It's important, it's entertainment, right? Like if we lived in a world without entertainment, everybody would be depressed. Right, right. It'd be dull and depressing. To give that to AI, you know, and to let AI do that is awful. Because human human involvement in these projects is the best because people can give you their opinions. One of the best things like that I have dealt with with working on films, there's nothing I love more than an actor coming up to me or a an editor being like, Hey, can we do this?

SPEAKER_00 2:22:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:00

It's like, you know, even if I don't agree, there's been moments where like I've had an editor say, like, hey, I think we should do this, and I'm like, I just prefer this.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:07

You're right.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:08

You know, at least they're coming to me and they're asking me, like they're bringing something to the table and saying, Hey, like, I think this would look better. Right. Right. I I just, you know, taking that away completely by giving it to a computer to do it, it's it's like this isn't human. And we've seen AI videos, you know, they're everywhere, it's all over social media.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:24

They are getting better, admittedly, but that doesn't mean that we need to have movies. There's still flaws in them.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:30

Yeah, and and it's just like I don't want Spider-Man to be swinging with three fingers, you know, or like the web to come from the tip of his middle finger or his thumb. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:22:41

Right, like and then it still has that grainy kind of effect too. Like it's kind of a really bad kind of blurred battery.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:47

And it's it's also like a a merge effect, it's got like like every like the it's not consistent, it's like everything merges into the next image. Right. What are y'all doing, dude?

SPEAKER_01 2:22:56

So so this is kind of a conversation we had the other day. AI can be a good tool. Yeah, but it that's that is what it is, a tool. And if it is used for anything else, if you're if you're using it just to take away jobs, if you're using it just to do the job, then that's a problem. So for example, one of my posts recently, I used AI because I was experimenting. Uh I was using AI in the caption. And because I read that the Instagram algorithm now favors posts with AI captions. So I I tried it, and it I don't think that's true because the post just didn't do that great.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:38

So it was like, okay, well, I'm not gonna use that again.

SPEAKER_03 2:23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:41

And and so some certain things like that, it's a tool. It's it can help you, just like a hammer can help you, yeah, instead of using your hand to press down nails, right? But it that's what it is. It is a tool. Right. And if you're using it to replace everything, then then you are losing that human creativity, that spark for everything else.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:02

Yeah. I think them putting it in the films and it it just it doesn't belong there. And I hope I hope they realize really quick. Because I know it's gonna happen. It's only a matter of months before we get a movie with some AI thing in it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:21

And well, we're already getting Val Kilmer who passed away. He his I don't know if you've seen that, he passed away, and they're bringing him back for a movie, and they're using entirely AI for that.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:31

Yeah, I know they did that with James Earl Jones um in Fortnite because they put Star Wars in Fortnite and Vader says all these I think he was still alive at that point, though. No, he wasn't he he he had signed his rights, uh his family signed the rights to let Disney use his voice in AI. Um, you know, i it's just it it's it's it's not real, you know, it's not human, and it's it doesn't get that same effect as like the actual person being there. And I get it, right? You've got people that have passed on and you still want like you still want Darth Vader voices. And I think you know, maybe you can maybe but even then I'm still not I don't know. Like we like okay, for example, we use AI for our notes sometimes. Usually sometimes, like sometimes when we have our our big comment days, we'll we'll put all the comments and we'll have the AI not write anything, we'll have it organize our notes for us. So when we print everything out, everything's organized and we can read it easier.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:24

Because we have so many comments that if we were to sit there, it would take us all day, and we have lives.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:30

You know, this podcast, like you said in the very beginning, was a fun prop passion project for us. Yeah, yeah. But it's not something that we're just like, we're gonna give our lives, we're gonna quit our jobs, we're gonna have AI run every yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Um, but you're you're exactly right. And that's even there, it's a tool. And even with the voice acting for James Earl Jones, like it's a difficult subject there because like I want Darth Vader to always sound like James Earl Jones. Right. I want Batman to always sound like Kevin Conroy, but if that's not their wish, if that's not their desire, then it shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 2:26:03

Yeah, I want I want Optimus Prime to always sound like Peter Cullen. But then, unfortunately, here's the other thing. You are cutting, we are cutting people out of jobs. Yeah. There are people who can do great imitations of James Earl Jones. And well, like the Invincible versus game, right? Yeah. I really thought that game was voiced, Stephen Ewan was the voice of Mark Grayson and Invincible. It's not, it's a different actor, but it sounds just like him.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:26:29

And there are people out there who can do these voices, you just have to search for them.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:32

Yeah, you just have to do auditions and and let people try out. Yeah. But you taking that away from them straight from the get-go is just not like that's not we shouldn't be doing that. Right. You know, like there are people to replace, you know, we're gonna have people to replace Optimus Prime when Peter Cullen dies. We're gonna have a replacement for every every person who like there's that's why there's so many people who voice Spider-Man. Right. Right, there's so many Superman voice actors, there's so many voice actors for all these, you know, just you know, it I I think it's it's getting to be a really scary point. And the fact that they fired all those people, I wish AI had never existed, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:06

For for the sake of the reason why they fired all those people, people who have jobs, who have families that they're providing for.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:14

I I I kind of do wish AI never and also also those people went to school to do that. They their whole lives money and time and and and passion to make make Spider-Man swing, right? You know, and to do those amazing things, and now they've been replaced by something that's just a computer.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:30

Again, you know, again, think of Andy Park, again, the visual director of Marvel since Iron Man was fired for AI. This guy has dedicated what 20 plus years of his life, 20 years, to something just to be fired and say, we we don't we we want this computer to do your job.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:50

Yeah. I mean just so they can keep extra money in their pocket, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:53

When they as if they're not a multi-billion dollar company.

SPEAKER_02 2:27:57

It's it's all it's all just it's just people wanting to make more money, and it's like, well, I don't want to have to pay people to do the work, I just want to make the money on myself, you know what I mean? And that's just it's greed. It's greed, you know, and it's it's not right. And so I I really for everybody who is getting replaced with AI, for anyone who has lost their job, I'm so sorry. And I hope, I hope that this some people in this industry can realize that this isn't the right thing to do. I also really hope that it doesn't because you know, especially as a young indie filmmaker who wants like I would love to work on a Spider-Man film, but stuff like this freaks me out because it's like they're pushing me away, you know, like one day at a time. And it's like in 10 years, we could all um Clayton Crane, actually, the comic book artist Clayton Crane, he said this at a at a panel. The only other Clayton. Yeah, the other Clayton, you know, not this, yeah. There's only two. Um he he said at a panel, he said, you know, I think in 50 years from now, AI will be so developed that we won't have filmmakers anymore. They'll just you can just type what movie you want and it'll just make the movie you want to watch. And it's like when he said that, I was like, that could totally be true. And m everything that I've worked for to get where I'm at or to build a future for myself is just nothing. You know, I think there'll still be people who will prefer real movies, you know. Like if if Christopher Nolan's like, hey, I'm making a movie, then it's just like, oh my gosh, you know, I have to yeah, I have to go see it. It's Christopher Nolan, you know, but like firing in Disney doing that is really awful. And like, shame on you, Disney. Like, shame on you, because that's not cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:30

You know, that's that's and it almost makes me not want to go support anything they do. Yeah, like I it almost makes me want to not go to brand new day. Again, AI is a great tool, it is not a replacement, it's not a replacement.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:46

Yeah, um, so and I think in time too, another thing is like I think there will become laws with AI. There's no laws with AI. It's yeah, it's the Wild West right now. AI is just it's so new that there's no boundaries and no restrictions. You can just do whatever you want. So I think in time there will be laws and there will be restrictions on what you can and can't do with AI.

SPEAKER_04 2:30:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:07

And I think that would be a good thing because I think that that will keep companies from like, oh, well, you know, you work for us, so we're gonna fire you and we're gonna use AI to replace because uh that was a thing. Josh Keaton, the voice of Spider-Man on Spectacular Spider-Man, had mentioned at a at a convention that comp companies were doing that and they would have they would have you record your voice, they would have AI analyze it and copy it, so then they could just use AI to voice all of your lines in a in a game or in a in a it's more for video games. Yeah, have AI copy all your lines in a video game, they don't have to pay you a penny, but your voice is still doing the work, it's just copied into a computer. It's it's not good. Please get rid of it. No, no more AI and film, you know. Like, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 2:30:51

And actually, uh if if you want to touch on this real quick, you went to and won an award for fragments. I did. And you mentioned that there were people there at this film conference talking about the future of AI and filmmaking.

SPEAKER_02 2:31:04

A lot of people were actually really excited that AI, like there, a lot of people I had spoken to was like, I'm very invested in AI and what AI is going to grow into. And I just like, and sure, AI is good for, you know, it's good for organizing your meeting notes. It's good for, you know, it's good for like, hey, AI, I need you to can you look all over the internet and and find any articles that say this. That stuff's great. It it does the hard part for you, right? But when it's doing the creativity for you, um, one of my favorite things that I've ever seen, I think it was in like a newspaper or something, it said AI should be washing dishes while I'm making art, not the other way around.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:41

That's that's you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 2:31:42

Like I shouldn't be washing dishes while AI makes art. Right. You know what I mean? So, you know, the AI is to make life easier, not take life away and not take creativity away. Because it's our job as humans and as people to create amazing art and create things that make people happy and inspire people. But when you're having the robots do that while you're just doing other things that you don't really, you know, you shouldn't be mowing your yard while the while the AI in your house is making a movie for you to watch. You should be, you know, let AI mow your yard. You know what I mean? Right, right. So I just that's just I don't know, you know. I don't know. That's that's all I have to say.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:19

That's that's our so that's that's all we've got to say on that. Yep. So and finally, we're gonna wrap up this episode by talking about Invincible! Oh man, we have reached a season finale.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:35

This is our last Invincible talk until season five.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:38

A whole year away, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:39

Is it coming out next year?

SPEAKER_01 2:32:40

Yeah, next season will be next year. Oh, okay. Robert Kirkman said they're gonna release a season every year.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:45

That sounds a little scary, but cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:47

Yeah. Yeah. Um so let's get into it. Last finale.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:52

So yeah, so we we have uh the Invincible crew coming back to Earth. Um the the resistance, I guess. Um the Viltermites are nowhere to be found. Right. They think that they're at Earth because it's like, well, they're just gonna try to kill our planet since we killed theirs. And we get back to Earth and they're everything's fine. Nothing's been destroyed. We get we get Mark going to see Adam Eve, and she is gained weight um due to the fact that she is pregnant. Or was or was pregnant, I guess there's their big spoiler. Um uh that we find out that she finally tells Mark that she's pregnant by saying that she had to have an abortion. And the reason that she did that was because um Mark wasn't there and she was really alone and she was very scared to go through with it. Right. And Invincible has this immense like this is all my fault. Like my absence and me being gone that made all these things like this is you know, um It was it was it was a deep episode. It was a deep episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:33:57

I've seen a lot of people complain. That this was the weakest season finale, and I will agree. I do think it is the weakest season finale because you gotta think last season was conquest, that's where it ended. First season ended with the Omni Man fight. Yeah, so like, yes, it is the weakest, but in terms of character development, it is the strongest because this episode builds emotional tension.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:20

Yeah, it builds, yeah. And and one thing too, sorry, I didn't mean there are two, but like one thing too is that the when it was over, I was like, you know, every ending to a season doesn't have to be a big climactic thing. Right. I was like, this proves that the end of a season can just be like, hey, everybody's gotta breathe, and like we we're making sure everything's okay. And then when we figure out, oh, like we figure out what is going on, and it's like, okay, okay, yeah, you know, uh, what do we do about this? Because there's not very much to do.

SPEAKER_01 2:34:50

Right. And you have to whole wait a whole year for the next uh resolution.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:55

I don't like this waiting a year for things thing. Infinity war, what did you why'd you do that? Like you've started a trend.

SPEAKER_01 2:35:00

So um Mark is having PTSD from the war, and he is thinking worst case scenario, and he they do it well, and it kind of got to a point where I think it it got annoying, but I'm like, no, this is gonna serve a purpose. Yeah. Where Mark is is having, and somebody who's gone through a traumatic experience, they they experienced this where they something can trigger them, and they automatically are are pulled back and they think worst case scenario, how is this person, this event or thing that essentially ruined my life, how is it now going to affect me now? So Mark sees several moments where Thrag shows up and he rips the head off of his mom, or he he does Adam Eve, kills Adam Eve, or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:42

Or Cecil, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:35:43

Cecil yes, kill Cecil. And each time it happens, it it really feels like that's the moment.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:48

Like he is here. He's here, like oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 2:35:51

Yeah, and they make you feel that tension that Mark is feeling uh only for him to not be there. Yeah, and so um finally he you're right, he does go talk to Cecil and he's like, Cecil, um Cecil, I need you.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:08

Yeah, Cecil, I need you, I need help. You you offer to help. And Cecil, this is one of the best moments of Cecil. Yeah, this is the first time he's not Timmy Tough Nuts, and he's actually like, you know, hey Mark, we're we're we're here to help you. Like and and Mark, and Mark, for the first time in a while, is not so built up, right? Right, right. Like we we see, especially rewatching season one again, like we see him going from you know just a teen having a good time to really like he's he's like ready to fight at all points, right? And this is kind of like he's finally letting the weight be carried by the people around him, right? And seeing that finally happen is like, oh my gosh, like it it's nice that he's relying on people, right? You know, and um he asks Cecil, he's like, Cecil, like you offered me help a long time ago. Uh can you make that happen? He's like, Yeah, we'll we'll we need to do a debrief, but we'll do that later. But let's let's help you out.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:01

Right. And meanwhile, we also have Omni Man and him and Debbie have a moment where she is just she's just done with him. Yeah, you know, and he's like, give me a chance. Yeah. I he said, That's the one thing I've always loved about you is that you believe in second chances. Yeah, please give me the opportunity to show you who I am now. Yeah. And it is also revealed that she broke up with Paul. Um, so that's another Paul gone.

SPEAKER_02 2:37:30

Yeah, but this Paul was actually cool. Yeah, this was a cool Paul. She mentioned she said, you know, our lives were too different, um, but he understands. Right. And she even tells Invincible, she's like, hey, you can call Paul if you need anything. He's here to help. Um, and she said something like, he's a good man. Yeah. You know, like he he's doing what he has to because he knows that my life is too stressful. Right. Which is just like, you know, we like this Paul. This is a nice Paul. This is a good Paul. This is a good Paul. Um I hate to see him go a little bit. Yeah. Like, oh well, you know, that sucks.

SPEAKER_01 2:37:59

So what happens is that Debbie wants to go check on Oliver, who is still back on Telestria, the uh the plan, the home planet of Coalition of Planets, and she wants to go, and Omni Man's like, uh you sure?

SPEAKER_02 2:38:17

Yeah, yeah. I think he actually says that. Yeah, or no, Invincible says it. Yeah, he's like, Are you sure?

SPEAKER_01 2:38:22

And I was like, Oh, oh, oh meme, meme reference? Oh, so she goes with him, they leave. That's a that's a nice moment. Even when he's like, You might want to look out the front screen, it's a beautiful sight as they head back to the planet. Um, and he kind of reaches out to her and he tries to grab her and he stops. And that was beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 2:38:44

Yeah, that was you know, it it was he he realizes that he it's too soon. It's too soon. Something I'm really happy with is I'm so glad that they're they're giving Omni Man these moments of like he's he's trying to do better. Right. And you see that, right? Because it's it's it's hard to forgive a person who has killed all those people on earth and has this awful imprint. Like Cecil even says uh Omni Man goes to the site where he had beat up Mark.

SPEAKER_01 2:39:11

And that's that's a cool moment that's a really awesome moment. Because they're called they even have the voice lines over it calling back.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:16

Yeah, and Cecil says, he says, um, you know, or uh uh Omni Man says, or Nolan says, like he's what does he say?

SPEAKER_01 2:39:23

He says he he's like, I for what it's worth, I'm sorry. Yeah, he's like, well, and he's like, I almost died in this war protecting earth. And Cecil says, Well, try to do it another what 4,000.

SPEAKER_02 2:39:35

2, yeah 430 sometimes. Yeah, and then I'm assuming it was how many people died in the accident in the fight with him and Invincible. And um, and uh Nolan also says, or Nolan says, like, hey, I'm for what it's worth, I'm sorry. He's like, Well, it might not seem like it's worth a lot, but it's worth a little something. Yeah, so no, even Nolan's like, you know, he's like, but he says something and he says, but uh get the fuck off my planet. And he walks away, and I was like, you know, I mean, hey, you can't argue with these people because it's like you did this really bad thing, and it's like, yeah, it's we know it's real, we know that he's really trying to do better, but no one else does. Right, right. And I we understand where both sides are coming from, right? So it's this, it's you really want it to be easy on Nolan, but you also you you can't blame people for it not being easy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:22

So it's just like if if somebody had done a very horrible thing, you know, in in real life, and they make amends, you don't see it. So that's where it's kind of coming from, too. Like they might have hurt you personally, and so now you well, they might have changed, but I need to see that proof of change.

SPEAKER_03 2:40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:41

So we go back to Mark and Adam, Eve, and they are um sitting on the bed together and they're uh they're talking, and Mark's like, It's just it's just my fault. I should have been here. Um he's just really in his head, he's really kind of beating himself up. And Eve says, Why don't you go for a flight? She's like, That I think that'll be good for you. Just go clear your head.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:03

He's like, I don't want to.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:05

Yeah, well, you need to go.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:06

Yeah, you know that that means you should go even more, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:41:10

So he goes off and he flies, and he's just flying through like the sky and uh doing some flips or whatever, and it really seems to like letting loose. And they're playing the music that it makes you think like, okay, he's really kind of cutting back. And then he sees somebody in the distance.

SPEAKER_03 2:41:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:27

He sees a cape flapping in the wind. Yep. And it's Thrag.

SPEAKER_03 2:41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:31

And he says, We very much are here.

SPEAKER_03 2:41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:35

And he leaves him with a proposition we will stay here on your planet, and you will do nothing about it. But we will not interfere with any of your your world.

SPEAKER_02 2:41:49

We will not we aren't killing anyone, we're not causing destruction.

SPEAKER_01 2:41:53

We will hide in plain sight. Um, and we will rebuild Viltrum by mating with your people.

SPEAKER_02 2:42:03

Yeah, but you are the example that this can work. Yep. And we will we will breed and repopulate and rebuild the Viltrum world, but we are at a stalemate.

SPEAKER_01 2:42:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:42:14

And uh and he says, but this is up to you. He said, you say yes, but we don't see each other. Or he says, like, yes, like you know, we don't hurt anyone, but you say no, and we'll destroy your planet. Yeah. Both of our worlds will die.

SPEAKER_01 2:42:27

Right. He said, make your decision wisely. Yeah. And Mark is like, no, no, and then he thinks he, I mean, he's ready, and he he gets a few swings on Thrag, but it does nothing. And finally he thinks of Adam Eve, and he's he finally lets go the fist, and he says, Yes, yes. And Thrag says, You will not hear from me again and flies off. Yeah, and the season ends.

SPEAKER_02 2:42:56

Which that's an awesome ending. Yeah, you know, because it it's genuinely like the best outcome that could happen has happened, but this is not good still. Yeah, because they're still repopulating like it, you know, and also they're on earth, breed and they're making more people, right? Like invincible. Yeah so you have like you don't know what to do. So this is a great place to end.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:20

So I'm gonna go ahead and say I made a post today about what is likely going to happen in season five. So if you don't want spoilers, don't check out today's post because there are things pulled straight from the comics that are probably gonna happen. And um, man, great season finale. You want to explain what happens in the in-credit scene?

SPEAKER_02 2:43:42

Oh, you know, honestly, you've read the book. You you explain.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:47

So um the in-credit scene is Alan the Alien, and he is now the leader of the coalition of planets. And we've seen him throughout the episode kind of dealing with this responsibility that he now has. But he has a video from um Thaedis, and Thaedis is saying, essentially, I'm dead, you are the leader, I'm sorry for this burden. Um but there's something I need to tell you the scourge virus is there. All the universe will not be safe until all Viltrums are wiped from the face of existence. Use the scourge virus to wipe out every remaining Viltrumite. And and he even says in the video I admit that it may cause the destruction of Mark's people, the humans, but it is worth the risk to save the universe from the Viltrum Empire. And it ends with Alan looking at the vial of the scourge virus.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:50

Yeah. And he's shocked. He's like, oh my gosh, like this is the biggest responsibility that could ever be laid on him. Yeah. And yeah, so dang. You know, and and again, this proves that the that a show does not need to be like this big badass fight to be an ending, like this was emotionally an ending. Because now you're like, you know, it's a nice break, yeah for sure. And it's but it's also like a I'm very eager to see what's gonna happen next. Because like now Mark knows that all these things he can't now. It's like, can he tell people? Can he let because he's gonna tell Omni Man like this is what's happening, right? And I don't know what to do. Because if we fight, then they they're just gonna kill everybody. So sure they could maybe make a plan, but you can see that like, you know, um, who's the guy? He has an eye patch on it. Yeah, he's got the robot General Craig. Yeah, you can see him already like getting it on with some biker girl, you know, so it's like it's already started.

SPEAKER_00 2:45:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:45:49

You know, I'm I'm very it this is this is a rough situation, you know, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:45:57

Yeah, when I said that this is the weakest season finale, it doesn't mean this was a bad episode by any means. There's just it's just not it's a moment that e leaves you eager for the next season, um, but it's not one of those that was like super tense. And I'm okay with that because the last episode was like the great fight. Yeah, right. Um, and and I had that intense, like this is really like part one, part two kind of thing. Um, and so absolutely I'm okay with it. So I didn't mean at all to say that this was a bad episode. This was a great episode, uh, even a good finale, but I just think of of all the finales, it's probably the weakest.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:34

It is, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:35

Um, but still good. And and yeah, uh knowing what is to come, brother, you ain't ready.

SPEAKER_02 2:46:44

I'm not, I don't know what to expect. Like I'm at I'm at a point, because if you haven't listened to the previous episodes, I'm not reading the book. I haven't read the book because I want to go into this blind. Yeah. You know, I've never, I've just, I want to go into this fully blind, not knowing anything. And not knowing what happens, you know, I know one spoiler. Okay. That's it. And I'm not gonna say what it is. Um, I know one spoiler just because someone had made a meme about it, and I was like, what are they talking about? And I Googled it and I went, brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dang it again. Because uh the only spoilers that I did have going into this season, I flipped through the comic once, and I flipped on the page where Adam Eve is sitting on the toilet with pregnancy pregnancy pants and the page where she tells Invincible that she had an abortion, which really sucked because those were two big things that happened that I was like, oh man, that would have really surprised me. Yeah. Um uh but yes, I'm very excited for season five. I really hope um a lot of people post spoilers really fast. They do. I've noticed that it's like next day they're spoilers. I'm really hoping that people don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:47:46

Well, even with what I posted, um, I have the cover slide. Well, hey, what's it here's what's happened, and then the very next slide is spoilers ahead. You have been warned. Yeah, and then I go into actually what's gonna happen. So, like you have because sometimes Instagram will will recommend the post again, but it's the second slide.

SPEAKER_03 2:48:04

Right, just to get you, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:48:05

Right. So that's why I did both slides as cover slide, spoiler slide. Yeah. So that way we don't we don't know when accidentally gets yeah, yeah. But especially you, I don't want to do that too.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:16

I don't want to be spoiled, but I I'm very excited. Um, I hope it's good. I I think it's gonna get better. I don't know how many seasons they're gonna do fully.

SPEAKER_01 2:48:23

I think Robert Kirkman's goal is to do nine or ten, but seven seasons have been green light at Amazon.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:30

That's awesome. Now, I hope in the next season, because my only critique with this season, my only critique is the budget. I think that these sh this show should have a bigger budget because they're having to cut down on certain things because there's certain scenes that look really like I remember some of the past episodes I talked about, like Adam, Eve, and uh Mark are in the kitchen, right? And they walk off, they walk out the door, and it looks like a cool math game, yeah, like like cutscene. Right. And it's like you have that, and then you have like the shot of Thrag like standing there with the light hitting him perfectly, and you're like, the budget, like you can tell, like there's the shots of the house, right? Right, and I'm like, that was just them killing what's left of the budget, yeah, yeah. You know, and it's like they should have a big enough budget to make everything look good. They shouldn't have to make this look bad to make this look better, right? They should have everything should look good, and then certain things look better, especially since it's so popular and it's the number one show right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:24

Yeah, yeah. So it it should have a much bigger budget.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:27

Yeah, and it's Emmy, I think it just got nominated for an Emmy. Oh, really? I'm pretty sure, yeah. So it says what it says on um on Prime is that it's gonna be nominated. So, like at that point, like give it give it a higher budget. You're gonna make your money back.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:40

Somebody ha said that uh that they're spending all their budget on the voice actors.

SPEAKER_02 2:49:45

Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:46

But but you just give it a bigger budget. That's all the matter. Just put more money on it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 2:49:52

Like, I'll donate a dollar. If everybody in the world donates one dollar, eight million dollars for this show. It'll be live action.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:59

They are working on a live action invincible. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Robert Kirkman said that they are still developing it, so it's not, you know, they don't have they're not past certain phases yet, but they're still working on it. Is that something they should do? I don't think so. And here's why. Because you're going to end, you're gonna have to end the movie with the Omni Man Invincible fight.

SPEAKER_03 2:50:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:50:18

And then you're gonna have to end with Omni Man leaving Earth.

SPEAKER_03 2:50:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:50:21

And unless you plan on doing the invincible cinematic universe, I see you.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:26

Yeah, and and I see you.

SPEAKER_01 2:50:28

Which is where Mark is.

SPEAKER_02 2:50:30

Yeah, yeah. Um but also you're doing literally what the show's doing. Right. You're just copying and pasting it and making it live action. And also, these seasons are long. Yes you know, it's what nine hours is like an eight episode season in eight hours. Right. So you can't move push all that into a one to two hour movie.

SPEAKER_01 2:50:48

And see, and the and the comics, right, exactly. And the comics are 144 issues, I believe. I think it's 144, maybe 148. Um, this next season, if we are lucky, we'll only get to see uh issue a hundred.

SPEAKER_03 2:51:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:02

Oh my god. And so you gotta think about that. Like four four seasons in, five seasons in, we're only at a hundred issues. So that's still like uh that's you can't just cram that into a whole bunch. This is not Star Wars.

SPEAKER_02 2:51:17

No, no, this is not Star Wars.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:19

Um and Star Wars worked fine as six movies and only six movies, and they're never anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, six movies, and that was it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:51:27

Then nothing came out after that, you know. Other than Clone Wars. One Clone Wars show on on Disney. That's the only thing they've ever made, yeah. Too bad they don't make any more.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:34

Yeah. It's a probably a good thing. Yeah, no, no, no. You know what? It might have been, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:51:39

They did something with uh I don't know who that is. I think you're tripping. Yeah, they didn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:44

Uh so I don't know. I I think I don't think a live action is maybe the greatest idea. I would just put that budget towards the rest of the show. I agree. And uh let it be animation, who cares if it's live action because it's just a you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:51:57

Because you can't, you're gonna cut corners, you're gonna cut things out, and just again, a show allows you to tell shows sh shows are better for comics because you can you can tell the story beat by beat the way the comics do. Right. Because the comic is the most perfect telling of the story because it's the OG. Right. Right? So like you put that in a show, you can do that. You can even add stuff like they like they have been. Right. And you know, in a movie you have to cut, and you have to cut a lot of important things out. And you're like, well, that can't be, you know, that can't happen because that didn't happen, and they scut they skipped that which was important. Yeah, you know, and then they change things, and it's just it's not I don't think it's worth it. But you know, I mean, I'm sure we'll still go see it. Yeah, yeah, I will.

SPEAKER_01 2:52:34

Um, so yeah, so how would you rank this season?

SPEAKER_02 2:52:39

I still I liked this season. I did too. I liked it. It's definitely, you know, like I know I had said like it's not better than the pre- I think I still I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:52:53

The only episode that drags it down is the hell episode, and even then, yeah, like even then it's just my same thing. It was it was more of a filler episode than anything. You know, yeah. And and so he I'm not gonna complain about any of the other stuff. It just it just felt like a filler episode that was not necessary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:53:13

The story feels like it's flowing forward, yes, it is, you know, and it feels like it doesn't feel like this is dragging on. It doesn't feel like that there are, you know, like there's some things you watch, you're just like, oh my gosh, this just gets on and on and on and on. You know, like this feels like it had every episode is leading to the next thing. Right. And every season, it's like, okay, well, I can't wait for the next season because it's you know I think each season progressively gets better. Yeah. I I think the budget-wise, it's get it's not as good. Right. You know, I think that that kind of knocks this season down a little bit because they they cut the budget and they're making the animators have to work with what they got. If that wasn't the case, I feel like it would it would triumph other seasons and it would be the next the next big thing, and then it would just continue to top itself because that's what you're supposed to do, right? Every season should beat the last season, every thing you put out should beat what's already been, right? You know, so um, but I think it's a good season. I think you know, I I will say they use their budget wisely with what they had. I don't think that, you know, I do think that some stuff could have, you know, like those little scenes was like, oh, it could have been better. But overall, everything it was a good season. Yes, you know, I'd give it, I'd give it an eight out of ten.

SPEAKER_01 2:54:20

I was gonna say eight or nine for me. Yeah, so really good. So that's invincible for a whole other year.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:26

So we had a super packed episode. I think we're coming up on three hours. Are we really? I think so.

SPEAKER_01 2:54:32

Holy cow, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:33

Um yeah, so thank you for sticking around. Hey, yeah, if you've made it here, thank you so much for sticking around. Again, I know people probably listen to this in junks. Um, but yeah, so is there anything else we want to say before we that's it.

SPEAKER_01 2:54:46

Thank you again.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:46

Yep, thank you so much. I know next week is light for us. Um it may be a little while before we record. Yeah, maybe a little bit before we record. I know we got uh we're meeting Scott Snyder next week. Next weekend, so we'll we'll definitely have some news about that. And we don't know, but just in case this could be Clayton's last episode, um, his wife is very much ready to pop. Yes. And um, we have already spoke that whenever he has his baby, he's gonna take some time to spend with the baby. He might, if something big happens in books and he's just like, well, you know, he might come back around for an episode or two, but um, he may be taking a break. So this could be the last episode with him on it for now. He's not gone forever. No, he's just taking a break. So um this could be it if she if she happens to get pregnant or yeah, if she goes into labor. But if not, we will be back in probably two weeks. Yes. For absolute Batman 20.

SPEAKER_01 2:55:38

If we're not back before then.

SPEAKER_02 2:55:39

If we're not back before then, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:55:40

So we will let you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:55:41

We will let you know. We'll we'll update you. So thank you guys so much for listening. Um, again, this has been a big episode. Um thank you guys so much for listening. This has been Beyond the Pool list. I'm Paul Fine. And I'm Clayton, and we will see you next time.