Ep 2: Play Date with Kim Turcotte

For the first Play Date episode of I Used to Be Fun, I brought in one of my besties (made it a little less scary that way!)— Kim Turcotte. Kim helps women reconnect with themselves through cyclical wisdom and intentional practice, which sounds like she has everything figured out. Spoiler: she doesn't. (Her words, not mine.) We talked about play, creativity, and what it actually means to reclaim joy when you're still in the middle of figuring it out yourself. Oh, and roller skating, we talked about that too.

Mentioned in the episode: Grab The Wonder Project HERE.

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www.annmarieboyle.com

Music from Uppbeat (https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/to-the-top), License code BC9SEN3G6PMABOA

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to I Used to Be Fun, the podcast about remembering who you were before life got so serious. I'm Annmarie Boyle, author, creativity instigator, and recovering overachiever. And each week, we explore how reconnecting to creativity and play helps us feel more alive, inspired, and like ourselves again. So set down the to-do list, grab a cup of coffee, and let's go find some fun.

Annmarie 0:39

Welcome everyone to our very first Play Date on I Used to bBe Fun. This is where the good stuff is going to happen because the Play Date episodes are where I get to sit down with real women not influencers not celebrities just smart funny creative women who are still figuring it out as the rest of us. And honestly I cannot think of a better person to kick this off with because she's been a friend for over 15 years and I know she'll roll with the punches if I encounter some speed bumps in this first guest episode. Kim and I actually met in 2010 I believe when I hired her and her then partner to build a website for me so she has literally been supporting my dreams for a very long time which makes her the perfect first ever guest. While Kim still creates websites for coaches healers and spiritual entrepreneurs she is also the creator of Step Into Your Magick, a sacred path that guides women back to themselves through cyclical wisdom, walking in sacred rhythm, and intentional daily practice. Kim works with women who sense that something more exists, women who are tired of living by everyone else's rules, and are finally ready to return to their own truth. A very similar ethos to what this podcast is all about. She also builds spaces where women can shed outdated conditioning reclaim their sovereignty and live with greater meaning authenticity, joy, and yes, magic. And when she's not holding space, you'll find her walking in nature, reading something soul stirring, or crafting ritual under the moonlight. Or talking on Zoom with me, that seems to happen a lot.

Kim 2:24

Yes.

Annmarie 2:25

And while most of my guests will be regular women just like you and me, I'm always going to take a second to introduce them properly because the women coming on the show have whole worlds inside them. And a quick introduction is my way of honoring that before we dive in. So, Kim Turcotte, welcome to I Used to Be Fun.

Kim 2:44

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and I feel very honored to be the first guest.

Annmarie 2:51

I'm just going to dive right in and we're going to start with a bit of a temperature check.

Kim 2:55

Okay.

Annmarie 2:55

I want to know do you consider yourself someone who plays?

Kim 3:00

I consider myself someone who's trying to play. I think I have realized, especially through many conversations with you, that as much as I want to play and I love the idea of playing, I've also forgotten how to play. And I'm not even sure what play looks like at this stage of my life. So I'm really excited about today's conversation. 'cause I think not only is it going to be, you know, beneficial for someone listening, but I think it's going to help me too.

Annmarie 3:28

Well, that's the goal right?

Kim 3:30

Yeah.

Annmarie 3:30

I said in my introduction to the podcast that I'm doing this because I need to reclaim my fun too. And so many women around our age are looking at that very same thing which

Kim 3:42

Yes.

Annmarie 3:43

what becomes really beneficial about this podcast. So if you're trying to work on play let's look at the other angle and do you then claim the word creative?

Kim 3:54

Yes. I claim that, and I say that creative looks a lot different for everybody. And so what is creative for me? Like doing ritual under the moon, like that's creativity for me. You know, that's what, that's a lot of what creativity looks like for me. Lighting a candle and, you know, I don't know, like the, the magical stuff feels very creative for me.

Annmarie 4:23

I'm sure we'll get into this but this is something that when I talk about this subject it's so much easier for people to hold onto the word creative particularly those of us that are entrepreneurs we understand that creating a business is actually a creative act

Kim 4:39

Yes,

Annmarie 4:40

sometimes when I'm talking to somebody who maybe is an accountant or you know works in a more structured type of field

Kim 4:47

yes.

Annmarie 4:48

I just find it fascinating that we can claim creative but play is so much harder. So we will get into that.

Kim 4:54

Yes.

Annmarie 4:55

So let's talk about what's bringing you joy right now and just the small silly stuff I think is important to focus on. Not the bigger things.

Kim 5:05

So right now the things that are bringing me joy are the, definitely the change in weather and being out in nature and just, you know, seeing the birds again, like lots of birds are around and just those simple things can bring me so much joy and my secret pleasure dancing around my apartment with the music blasting, like that brings me joy. And sometimes I feel like I restrain myself from that because I think as a kid I was probably taught, you know, oh my God, you know, stop, stop being so wild, or stop being so acting so crazy. But that's something that really brings me joy to be able to just let go and just follow the music. It's been something I've been trying to do more.

Annmarie 5:56

Which is the very definition of play, right?

Kim 5:59

Yeah.

Annmarie 6:00

that you're doing that and really not calling it play but I want to come back to something else you mentioned

Kim 6:05

Okay.

Annmarie 6:05

Doing some things like this when you were a kid So I want to know what did play look like for you as a kid?

Kim 6:11

I spent a lot of time outdoors. I was very fortunate to live, on this little side street that had lots of woods in the back of my house, and we had a really big yard. And so my sister and I and the kids next door,, we had a fort in the woods and we played. In the woods and in nature a lot. It's funny 'cause I always joke about it and say that when we played, I was the teacher, my sister always played the mom. We would play this whole society where my sister would be the mom and have the kids and the dolls. You know, we'd had this little kitchen set and everything in our little fort area. And then on the other side, we had a blackboard and a desk and I was the teacher and her kids would go to school and I'd be the teacher. And so that was play for me.

Annmarie 7:01

That's kind of exactly where you ended up, your sister is the mom and you are the teacher.

Kim 7:05

I know, it's, it's kind of wild, when I think about that, I'm like, even my child self knew who I was, and I think I lost that over the years, you know?

Annmarie 7:15

You're testing it, right? That's what play is for children is doing something with no purpose or no perceived outcome but they are teaching themselves, they're learning about themselves, they're testing their boundaries and so forth. And something that I think we could bring into our adult life in a much more full way in allowing ourselves like whether it is to try something and fail or to do something that we're told as kids we weren't good at and pushing against that. So I'm thinking about that art teacher in my mind who told me I wasn't any good at art and now I'm coming back to it in my mid fifties. And so I think that moving through the world in that play like manner allows us to really re-experience that.

Kim 8:02

I think that's an interesting point because when I think about that, you know, one of the things that I think is so amazing about children is that as children, we're not worried what people think. We're just in the moment. I think back, I remember years ago I saw this meme on social media and it was a young girl, probably around nine or 10, and she was just soaking wet, splashing in a puddle. The caption was something like, remember this little girl? And like, I'm going to get emotional, but like, I remembered her. In that moment and I thought, my God, how long has it been since I just let that wild abandon take over and not worry about what the outcome was going to be.

Annmarie 8:47

I don't even know the word for it but it's sucked out of us as we age we're

Kim 8:52

Yes,

Annmarie 8:52

That's not what adults do. It isn't even so much about, yes we have to pay the bills, we need to go to work, we need to you know-- we just had a foot of snow over the weekend, we need to shovel out, we need to do

Kim 9:04

Right.

Annmarie 9:05

But that isn't I think what takes it away from us I think it's culture telling us that play is meant only for children. And the sad thing is play does so much neurologically for us.

Kim 9:16

Yep.

Annmarie 9:17

New pathways and so forth that when we leave it behind we leave behind so much potential, as well.

Kim 9:24

Yes, I totally agree.

Annmarie 9:27

We've been dancing around this-- when do you think that shift happened? If you feel like maybe you stopped playing, do you think there was a moment you stopped playing or do you think it just quietly evaporated over time? What do you

Kim 9:42

For me, there was actually a clear moment and so when I, was growing up, my mom, you know, my parents got divorced when I was six and my mom was a single mom after that. And my sister and I spent a lot of time at my grandparents' house. Because my mom worked

Annmarie 10:01

Right

Kim 10:01

and at 10, my grandmother, who I was very close to, suffered a massive stroke. And after that we didn't stay at my grandmother's anymore. We were, I mean, you know, this would be child abuse these days I think. But I was 10, my sister was almost eight and we went home after school after that and then I kind of became the caregiver. I thought it was so exciting to be able to learn how to start, you know, getting vegetables ready for dinner. 'Cause I got to, you know, be the responsible one. But that did damage too, I was forced to grow up at that point, and so I did stop playing. I think that's where it happened for me. I think I had to grow up and I just didn't have a lot of space for play anymore.

Annmarie 10:54

It's really interesting because had you been in the kitchen with a parent or a caregiver

Kim 10:59

I.

Annmarie 10:59

cutting vegetables with them that's almost play. But when it becomes a must instead of a want it stops being play. And you know I think a lot of us have had an ex experience throughout life where we were asked to be an adult, whether it was a situation where it was about, "Well you're this age now you don't behave like that anymore."

Kim 11:19

Right.

Annmarie 11:20

Much more dramatic like you were talking about, that really asks us to move into something, and when you are caring for another person, it wasn't just you at home like you were now not only responsible for dinner but also responsible for your sister. And you understood the pressures your mother was under as a single parent.

Kim 11:36

Yep.

Annmarie 11:36

That does shape us. I never want to belittle any situation that when we're asked as children to step into adult roles that those things happened because they have to happen because it's just the way life is. It's just the idea of how can we then get back to some of what we've missed or even go back in our brain and rethink, "Okay, maybe that was play. Maybe cutting vegetables was play, maybe I just told myself it wasn't because I was playing grownup." And that in a way you just said was kind of fun, right?

Kim 12:14

Yeah. Right.

Annmarie 12:15

But I'm sure it got old after a while but in

Kim 12:17

Yes.

Annmarie 12:18

it was that way

Kim 12:20

Well, it's funny 'cause I think about my mom at that time, right? And I think I just wanted to be what she needed me to be.

Annmarie 12:28

yes

Kim 12:28

And isn't that how we get conditioned out of so many of the wonderful things that we are as children, right? Like we feel the need to be what someone else needs us to be. And you know, I think that's what happened. Like you said, it was fun in the beginning, but then it became work.

Annmarie 12:47

And I'm hoping that one of the things that comes out of this podcast is we all figure out how to find the play and the joy inside the quote unquote work. Because I do think that it's there just a matter of It's really hard when something feels like drudgery or responsibility you didn't ask for or things like that and as a child you can't bifurcate those two things. You didn't have the prefrontal cortex shall we say to to pull out like oh I can make this fun somehow. You might have been able to say I could make this fun for Erica, for your sister, but you probably didn't have the ability to make it fun for you, which is why I think it's even more important that we're coming back to it in

Kim 13:27

Well, you know, the other thing too that I'm thinking about is that honestly, my mother didn't have fun. She didn't model it for me. I'm just looking back on this now and it's coming to me like when I was playing the role of mommy, right, of adult, I had no reference for a mommy who played. My mom didn't play. I mean, I literally can count a handful of times where my mother actually sat down and played with my sister and I. She played jacks with us and I actually bought a set of jacks a couple of years ago because for this very reason to bring play back, because it was one of the things that my mother was involved in with me as far as play goes. 'cause she was the Jacks champion when she was a kid, and it was a big thing for her to play with my sister and I. 'cause she never did it, you know?

Annmarie 14:19

I think that is what happened to a lot of us.

Kim 14:22

Yeah.

Annmarie 14:23

If I look back at my own childhood, like my parents were really good at games, we played a lot of games and I love games. To this day like

Kim 14:30

Yes.

Annmarie 14:31

I'm very competitive I love to learn new things You know reading the rules is actually exciting to me.

Kim 14:37

Yep.

Annmarie 14:37

figure out how to do it but there wasn't a lot of other play post going to school

Kim 14:45

Yep.

Annmarie 14:45

but I think about that with my parents too. When they both grew up on farms

Kim 14:49

Yep.

Annmarie 14:49

always work to be done you know just was never any downtime and you learn what you learn And

Kim 14:55

Yes.

Annmarie 14:57

Particularly women in our mother's generation so much responsibility for at home, right?

Kim 15:05

Yes.

Annmarie 15:06

so they didn't get time to play either for themselves.

Kim 15:09

Right.

Annmarie 15:10

I just keep coming back to this is why I think I've been called to do this podcast is because we as women even you and I who don't have children

Kim 15:19

Yes.

Annmarie 15:19

We put ourselves last. We take care of the rest of our family. We take care of paying the bills. We take care of cleaning the house. We do the grocery shopping, whatever it may be --and I have a very non-gendered equitable marriage

Kim 15:36

Yep.

Annmarie 15:36

still a lot of that stuff falls to me. I'm self-employed it's just easier for me to go to a grocery store Tuesday morning

Kim 15:44

Yes,

Annmarie 15:45

Cause I'd rather spend my weekends playing.

Kim 15:47

Yes, yes, I so agree. And just thinking about that, I think that our parents' generation was that kind of bridge generation, right? They had the foot in both worlds of they were moms, but they were also out in the workforce, many of them. And so they had this extra layer of responsibility, right? Because they wanted their daughters to grow up with something different than what they grew up with. And yet. The thing that was lost in that so many times was play and was self-care. And I feel like play is self-care, you know? That's why I'm trying to learn how to do it again.

Annmarie 16:31

I think that's really interesting because one of the questions as I was brainstorming what I wanted to talk to you about was do you think anything in your life has gotten rebranded as self-care or a hobby when if you did the same thing at eight years old you'd be calling it play?

Kim 16:48

Hmm. That's interesting. You know, I, I actually think the dancing thing is that, because that's how I relieve stress, right? Like you said, we're entrepreneurs. I sit in front of a computer, a large part of my day, and sometimes I'm like, okay, I know I need to move the energy around. And so getting up and moving my body. I think in some ways I'm looking at that as self-care because I'm taking care of this sacred vessel that I have. It ends up feeling like play a lot of the times, but that's not the initial intent. I don't think it is about self-care, which is interesting that I didn't think about it that way until you asked, but I definitely think that that's true.

Annmarie 17:33

So, do you think it would change in your mind if you called it play instead of self-care?

Kim 17:37

Yes, because I think I would laugh more and I live alone, right? So I can do whatever I want and I can act as silly as I want, and there's no one here like going to judge me. And yet, sometimes I still am like, you're acting like a crazy woman, Kim. You know, because I'm wildly dancing and flailing my arms around, and just being silly and that judgment does creep in. And so I think maybe I'm going to start trying to play with that a little bit. No pun intended, or maybe there is a pun intended, but to play with that word, just viewing it from a different lens.

Annmarie 18:18

If I bring one thing out of this podcast it's maybe reclaiming the word silly. I think silly is highly underrated. I'm a very silly person, but I know I have buried it so deep. Like the only way I've allowed silly to come out is, you and I have talked about this in the past, like there is no greater high for me than to make someone laugh.

Kim 18:37

Yep.

Annmarie 18:38

If I can land a joke, that's my nirvana. But that is the only time that I really let anybody else see my silly and

Kim 18:46

Yes.

Annmarie 18:46

even hide it from my exceptionally accepting husband who would not judge me.

Kim 18:51

Yes,

Annmarie 18:51

It was so conditioned culturally and you know even in my family to not be silly that I check that and

Kim 19:00

yes.

Annmarie 19:01

I've gotten a recent diagnosis of being neurodivergent, and when you're that person moving through life and you always feel a little bit weird, you tone down silly I think because you don't want people to call it

Kim 19:13

Right. Look, I was always the weird kid too. And I feel like I learned how to tone down my weird because I just wanted to fit in. Right. And I want to circle back 'cause you made me think of something really. That I never thought about before. My dad, my biological dad. Very silly guy. Very silly. My parents, they got divorced when I was young. They were great co-parents for the time. Like it was the seventies. There was no such thing as co-parenting back then, you know? But they were great. I mean, my mom would include my dad and his family and our birthdays and stuff. They put aside their differences for us, and at the same time, the, silliness by my dad was definitely not tolerated by my mom. And so I, I heard you talking and I'm thinking, oh wow. My dad was very silly and I saw how my mom judged that. So I definitely think that, again, I was just like, oh, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be too silly. 'cause then mom's going to think whatever about me or mom's going to be upset with me. But silly, so important.

Annmarie 20:26

And I don't know how to get there yet. Like that's an answer I don't have is to let that wall crumble.

Kim 20:32

Yeah.

Annmarie 20:33

Allow the world to see a little bit more of me. At my core I'm weird and

Kim 20:39

me too.

Annmarie 20:40

But I've been playing it off as this very respectable spreadsheet loving analytical person And I am not you know at my core I'm just not that person

Kim 20:50

Right.

Annmarie 20:51

so this is the piece like every woman that I want to talk to I think I gotta bring up the silly thing like

Kim 20:56

Yes.

Annmarie 20:57

you would do if you weren't afraid of somebody calling you silly?

Kim 21:02

Yep.

Annmarie 21:02

And it's funny because the next question on my list is actually is there something you secretly love that you don't talk about because it feels silly unproductive or not you in quotes anymore?

Kim 21:17

Yeah, I, I don't even know. I, I think, like, I actually think that I'm so far away from that. Like I'm, so out of touch with that part of myself.

Annmarie 21:28

Yes

Kim 21:29

I can't even truly answer that question because I am sure that I have stuffed down or whatever, or put aside parts of me that are silly or are playful or aren't appropriate, and I don't even realize it. I think that's the, that's the thing about conditioning, right? It's like this insidious thing where we don't even realize that it. Controls so much of what we do, we don't even realize we have it until we actively start to look at it. I think that's why this podcast is so important. Imagine if the world was even 5% more s silly and playful. We probably would not be in the situations we're in right now in the world and you know, like. Just to be people, to be able to let their proverbial hair down and, and just be, yeah, I don't know. I, I don't think I can answer that question and that I, that doesn't sit very well with me to have to admit that because I. I want to think that, I've done a lot of work on myself and that I'm more open and yet when it comes to this, I'm realizing I really do struggle with it. It's still something that I don't know how to do. I

Annmarie 22:52

I think you just hit the nail on the head there It's not that you're closed off to it it's that you know how to do it anymore.

Kim 22:59

I don't.

Annmarie 23:00

There's a couple of things that you said that triggered a couple things for me. I realized that I have this big beautiful cabinet sitting next to me full of art supplies. Years ago, I owned an art materials store but now to get back into it I realized I'm trying to take that love of and art make it a side hustle, right? Like put it into taking a course on surface pattern design, which is something I'm deeply interested in, but I do want to just sit back and check myself and say listen, is that really what you want? Or is that an excuse for you to play that will get some respect

Kim 23:42

Yes.

Annmarie 23:43

that will be accepted

Kim 23:44

Right.

Annmarie 23:45

it's probably both you know that

Kim 23:47

I agree. But I think it's interesting that you bring that up. It makes me think of Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert and how she talks about how writing for her, like she kind of set this hard line of it has to just be about the experience of writing. Yes. She went on to be this very successful, multimillion dollar author and for her the hard line was. I'm just going to be in it. And I think that for us, especially women who are entrepreneurs, like is that the real reason we went into this was so that we could quote, unquote, justify the things that felt creative and playful to us. It's really good. Yeah, it's a great question.

Annmarie 24:32

I think we're drawn to entrepreneurship because we are creative.

Kim 24:36

Yes.

Annmarie 24:36

My lovely husband every time that one of my businesses wasn't doing well over time I would say is it time for me to go get a W2 job, which is what I called it cause

Kim 24:46

Yep.

Annmarie 24:46

like when I say a real job because he keeps saying you have a real job.

Kim 24:50

Yeah. Right?

Annmarie 24:50

get a W2 job And he said, you know this sounds morbid, I'm sorry, but he's like you'd be dead in two months You

Kim 24:57

Yep.

Annmarie 24:58

You tried the cube life You can't do it.

Kim 25:00

Yeah.

Annmarie 25:01

So I do think that there are parts of our inborn personality that drew us to this kind of lifestyle and why

Kim 25:08

Yes.

Annmarie 25:08

in it even though it's really hard and sometimes the money is not great

Kim 25:12

Yep.

Annmarie 25:13

But I but I also think that it's an acceptable way to play and to be creative And that's a

Kim 25:18

Yes,

Annmarie 25:18

thing So if people who are listening here that and go oh yeah, okay, now I get it, now I get

Kim 25:23

yes.

Annmarie 25:24

this choice or why I have to make this choice

Kim 25:27

Yes.

Annmarie 25:28

thing

Kim 25:28

Yes.

Annmarie 25:28

So let's shift gears a little bit and let's talk about what do you think you'd be like if you did actually let yourself play more? We've hit on it a little bit but

Kim 25:39

Well, honestly, I think I would be very silly. When you say that I see that girl in the puddle with her hair. Wild, not caring. There's nothing about her that cares what's going on around her. She's literally just in that moment. And I think for me that's, I don't know, like that's. Wild abandon is, are the words that come to my mind, like I, I don't know. Does that answer your question?

Annmarie 26:14

I don't know that there are any specific answers to any of these questions. I think it's just exploring it and hopefully when people listening hear it they're going to have their own moment. Like I keep thinking the best solution right now is to take a little post-it note and say be the girl in the puddle and slap it up wherever you're going to look at it every day and everybody else is going to have different that it means to them

Kim 26:38

Yeah, I think.

Annmarie 26:39

be the girl in the puddle be the kid who played Lego whatever it may be people will resonate with the idea that there is something in their mind an image that they can immediately draw to whether it's playing in the woods like you said or if it's you know, I heard an interview with Carol Burnett who was on Amy Poehler's Good Hang

Kim 26:59

Yep.

Annmarie 27:00

podcast the other day and she talked about climbing the Hollywood sign when she was a kid-- obviously you can't do that now

Kim 27:06

Right.

Annmarie 27:06

you know she was likening it to two things and the first one was it probably led to her physical comedy right Because

Kim 27:16

Right.

Annmarie 27:16

was able to do those kind of

Kim 27:18

Yes. Yes.

Annmarie 27:19

and the freedom kids had you know she this would've been in the fifties I'm going to

Kim 27:24

Right.

Annmarie 27:25

And then she also said that that idea of play like she hung out with the neighborhood kids and they climbed the Hollywood sign and they didn't have to go until the streetlights went off. And yes different time safer for children or at least we thought it was safer for children,

Kim 27:42

Right.

Annmarie 27:43

but that idea that she had such wild abandon, as you just used

Kim 27:48

Yes.

Annmarie 27:50

Made her who she is the talent she is and she's 95 years old and still acting

Kim 27:56

Yeah.

Annmarie 27:57

there's so much power Think about it

Kim 27:59

Yeah. And I'm listening to you and the thing that comes to my mind is doing the thing without the fear of judgment, right? Like, 'cause that's where I think so many of us get caught up. Like we have an idea. I'll tell you this, we had a lot of snow here. I live in New England. We had a lot of snow here this winter, and I really, really, really wanted to go sledding. Okay, but I'm 56, almost 57. I have no children. I have no young nieces anymore that I can use in as as an excuse to go, and I'm like, okay, people are going to look at you weird. Like, who the hell is this old lady? Not that I look like an old lady, but you know what I'm saying, like this, this woman who's out here all by herself sledding. And I totally talked myself out of it. And honestly, I regret that because I know how much fun I would've had. I loved sledding as a kid. I loved it. It's great exercise and when you first take off down that hill and you start to pick up speed, you can't help but giggle. I wanted that experience and I talked myself out of it because I'm like, Kim, come on the like 56, you're going to go sledding. Like, you know?

Annmarie 29:14

Well, you you anytime you're a single person around young kids in our

Kim 29:17

Yes.

Annmarie 29:18

are like what is that person doing?

Kim 29:20

Right. What's the

Annmarie 29:20

Think that is just an excuse

Kim 29:22

yes.

Annmarie 29:23

Like anytime we bring that up it's absolutely an excuse for me. It often comes to you know I have a few health issues and I'm like oh can you handle it, but I'm doing is talking myself out of something that would bring pure unbridled joy.

Kim 29:39

Yes,

Annmarie 29:40

of play is to do something that has absolutely no purpose

Kim 29:44

yes,

Annmarie 29:45

end result and that's exactly what that would've been

Kim 29:49

yes.

Annmarie 29:50

it out So next winter when the

Kim 29:52

Well, you know, and it's making me think, two years ago at Christmas, I asked for roller skates, and everyone in my family, well I won't say everyone, my nieces got together and they bought me a pair of purple roller skates. 'cause you know, I'm a purple girl and I tried them on and I stood in my apartment with them, and I have never used them because all I can hear is my sister's voice in my head saying, what if you fall, you're going to break a hip? Like, you're too old, you're too old, you're too old to go roller skating. And I'm like, but I was so good at it and I loved it as a kid, I used to go to the roller rink every Friday night when I was a teenager every Friday night. And it was, you know as much about hanging out with my friends, but I really loved to skate and so I'm going to just challenge myself. And I know, like outside of this podcast, Annmarie, I want you to hold me accountable to ask me, have you gone roller skating yet? Because I want to do that because it's so much fun and it's that place of joy, right? Unbridled joy, laughing for no reason.

Annmarie 31:01

circular things too where the more physical activity you get like that the safer your hips are from breaking

Kim 31:07

Yes,

Annmarie 31:08

If you're a little bit younger and listening to this we're both in our mid fifties and there is that piece I don't know You cross the the 50 threshold You

Kim 31:17

yes.

Annmarie 31:17

some signs of age Your body starts doing a few things differently You're going through menopause and you think will I break a hip

Kim 31:26

Yeah, exactly.

Annmarie 31:27

That might be a real question

Kim 31:30

Yes.

Annmarie 31:30

think it's a real big excuse right

Kim 31:32

It's definitely an excuse because the truth is, is that if you wear the right equipment and you, you know, like I'm not just going to go wild out there at first, I'm going to, be a little bit safe, but I think the whole point is just to get out there, right? It's about moving beyond the excuse and the fear both. What might happen to us. 'cause that's really just the, it really is the excuse. I'm not really scared about what's going to happen. What I'm scared about is someone seeing me and being like, oh my God. Look at her. Like, you know what I mean?

Annmarie 32:07

I think we all know what you mean

Kim 32:08

Yes,

Annmarie 32:09

I mean the one of the main reasons we stop quote unquote playing is because of judgment

Kim 32:15

yes.

Annmarie 32:16

some of it's very real judgment You know

Kim 32:18

Yes.

Annmarie 32:18

from adults in our lives or it's coming from teachers or it's coming from society But you know what I think that part of that too is as women we can look at what are we willing to do with kids or grandkids or our nieces nephews those kids and we use them as the excuse to play

Kim 32:39

Hundred percent.

Annmarie 32:40

would you do the exact same thing If you didn't have that excuse like I just think it's too easy to say that I'm going to go roller skating because my nieces want to

Kim 32:51

Yes,

Annmarie 32:52

going to

Kim 32:53

go to the trampoline park. I mean, I remember doing that with my nieces when they were kids. And I loved it. Like I loved it. I had so much fun and I was one of the only adults out there jumping around with the kids and. You know, it's funny 'cause I'm, I'm actually thinking about this. So, my ex-husband, my, my nieces had a trampoline in the yard. One of those really nice big ones with the nets around them and. I played both sides of it. Yes, I would play and jump on the trampoline, but then when Craig would get up there and he would start jumping around and doing flips and acting silly, I would be like, what are you doing? You're going to hurt yourself. And I became my mom. And so just to think about that, like, I had so much anxiety watching him, and if I'm honest, I think it was more because I was jealous that he could just let himself go than it was about me really worrying about if he was going to get hurt or not. Like that's what I used as the excuse. But I think I saw him and he would like be doing these crazy flips and the girls would be laughing their heads off and they were like so excited that uncle was up there doing this. And I think I was jealous if I'm, if I'm being totally honest. 'cause I just didn't have the capacity to let myself go there.

Annmarie 34:10

I think that's a probably a really common reaction we both Been in the coaching world for a while and the piece that comes out is the things you don't like in other people or the things you don't like in yourself

Kim 34:20

Yep.

Annmarie 34:21

But anytime somebody is doing something and I'm having some sort of reaction to it when it's not joyful If there's a negative reaction to it I stop and ask myself well what's really going on here And yes there are things that people do that are heinous We live in a world where a

Kim 34:38

Yes,

Annmarie 34:38

is going on right now So that is not what I'm talking about I'm talking about what you're talking about

Kim 34:43

yes,

Annmarie 34:44

why am I unhappy that he was doing that

Kim 34:47

yes.

Annmarie 34:49

is it he just broke his ankle and he couldn't work Well that's a whole different thing then I could do that too because that's a lot I'm guessing of what comes out So I think one of the other things that came to me when you were talking about that is in our life can we give other people permission other women

Kim 35:08

Yes.

Annmarie 35:09

to play not hold other women back

Kim 35:13

And I think that's why this podcast is so important because I know for myself, like I am trying to consume, more things out in the world that are affirming rather than. Judgmental. I try to be that place for people to give permission without judgment to just be you. Like, don't worry about it. If I do think you're weird, it's a compliment, not, not a judgment. Like I want the weird, I want the silly. And I think it's about. Enough of us being willing to say that out loud and really hold the space for that, that then it becomes a movement, right? Because there is a tipping point for everything, and it's time for the world to get less serious. I mean, look, we have a lot of serious things going on, and there's time for seriousness, but man. We need play now more than we have ever need. We need silliness now. We need levity more than we have ever, ever needed it. And we need to stop letting those judgements, or the fear of being inappropriate or not responsible, you know? 'cause that's the other thing, you know, if you're silly, you can't possibly be responsible, you know?

Annmarie 36:34

People think it's the opposite side of the coin when actually I think that adding a little silly absolutely increases our intellectual capacity So

Kim 36:43

Yes.

Annmarie 36:44

capacity then we can return to responsibility with a greater focus

Kim 36:49

Well, not just a, not just a greater focus, I don't think. I think we come back with new ideas.

Annmarie 36:55

Absolutely

Kim 36:56

Right, because our brain opens up, we're not stuck in the rut of what we, what we've always done. We're, able to then think outside the box because we have more space and we have more creative capacity.

Annmarie 37:10

I've taken some notes as you're talking and what I just wrote down was people think play and creativity maybe are on the same spectrum and I think play to creativity Right That's why kids do it

Kim 37:23

Yes,

Annmarie 37:24

it allows us and not creativity as in I'm going to go paint a picture but creativity as in creating

Kim 37:30

yes,

Annmarie 37:30

create a beautiful home for my family I'm going to create a new program at work

Kim 37:35

yes.

Annmarie 37:36

going to create a safe space for people And I think what's coming out of the world we're living in right now for me is that as we diminish joy and have less of it our creativity will decline And the only way out of certain situations is to be more creative create

Kim 37:56

Yes, yes.

Annmarie 37:57

Be more innovative And that brings me back to and maybe a good place to wrap up is So many times I have sat back and thought during this period is writing fiction is doing this podcast

Kim 38:13

Yes.

Annmarie 38:15

you know creating beauty through art Is that Too silly I'm going to use that word It's what came to mind and shame on me but is it irresponsible

Kim 38:25

Yes.

Annmarie 38:25

I be doing something else

Kim 38:26

Right.

Annmarie 38:27

And I sit in that for only a few minutes now before I realize Uhuh we cannot keep up this level of despair and not Be defeated

Kim 38:39

Agreed.

Annmarie 38:40

those affirming actions you're talking about without laughter without joy without feeling people's authenticity without play without creativity we don't survive this and

Kim 38:50

We don't and, and yeah, I so agree. I don't know how long it's been since you had a really good belly laugh, like really just could not stop laughing. And you know how sometimes when you get into that mode and every little thing just makes you laugh harder and it's like you can't breathe. When you come out of that. No one can touch you. You're like on fire in that moment. Your energy is amazing and that's the energy we need to get to, to get out of all the things that we're in right now, it's almost like it's necessary. It's our responsibility to play and to be silly and, you know, it's.

Annmarie 39:29

is and the here comes the spreadsheet side of me again I mean science has proven over and over again that laughter does so much for us physically mentally spiritually There is so Many benefits to that

Kim 39:44

Yes,

Annmarie 39:44

belly laugh And I do laugh easy

Kim 39:47

yes.

Annmarie 39:48

myself doing it a little bit less as I've been getting older and particularly like we said with the state of the country right now But it is something that probably should go up on my board

Kim 39:59

Yeah.

Annmarie 40:00

where can you go and find that laughter

Kim 40:02

Yes. How can you laugh? How can I, have I laughed yet today? You know?

Annmarie 40:07

Yes Right Live laugh love Now um we won't get into all that so I'm going to wrap up with a couple of questions that I

Kim 40:14

Okay.

Annmarie 40:15

everybody

Kim 40:16

Yes.

Annmarie 40:17

you may have already answered this but I'm going to ask it again you could give yourself permission to do one thing just for fun no justification required What would it be

Kim 40:28

I'm going to go with the roller skating 'cause I had forgotten about that. But I'm thinking about it and it's, it's getting nicer out and I want to do it. I just want to do it. 'cause I know I'm going to have fun doing it and I know how good I'm going to feel about myself. On so many levels when I get back from it.

Annmarie 40:47

Yes and so this is a little something that I hope we can offer just a little piece of advice from everybody's different perspective At the end of each podcast and I would like you if you could tell a woman listening right now who's thinking well that sounds nice for you Kim

Kim 41:05

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 41:06

that's not for me anymore or I don't have the time for it or whatever their excuse may be What would you tell them

Kim 41:14

I mean, this feels like right up my alley because one of the things that I talk about a lot in the work that I do, the step into your magic work that I do is about how it's so. Important for us. You know, we've all heard the phrase, fill your own cup first. Right? You can't pour from an empty cup. And there is a little bit of kind of cheekiness about it, but also it's so very true. And what better way to fill your cup than to be playful and be silly because the 10, 15, 30 minutes. I'm going to guess it's going to go longer because when you're in that place, you're in that what they call that chiros time where you lose track of time,

Annmarie 41:50

Yes

Kim 41:50

you know, and it extends out on itself. And when you come out of that, everything is better, and you are a better person to the people around you. And you are more kind, you're more loving and life is just better. And somewhere, we all know that's true inside, but it's been hammered into us to not be selfish. So what I would say is really challenge yourself to look beyond that selfishly label, and not only give yourself that gift, but give all the people around you that gift. Because when you are happy, other people are happy, it spills out.

Annmarie 42:32

Wrote down while you were talking that If you need a place to start think about it as a way to give to others because who's better at giving to others than women

Kim 42:41

yes

Annmarie 42:42

we were trained to do that and honestly it's in us It's

Kim 42:45

it is.

Annmarie 42:46

to give to others So if you cannot play for yourself in the beginning do it so that you are able to give to others You are able to model that behavior for your kids for your grandkids for the people around you And then you start getting into it Start doing it for yourself because the benefits I mean it's better than any medication you're going to get

Kim 43:08

yes.

Annmarie 43:09

like this dancing that you're talking about for me that I'm the same way right Like I cannot have music on and not move my body And so I have started this thing where at a certain time every morning get up from my desk cause I too spend time in front of my computer a lot I just pick up around the house say there was a book I left out or I didn't fold the quilt from the couch last night Whatever it may be But I turn the music on I give myself 15 minutes and yes I'm getting a job done The

Kim 43:42

Yes. Right?

Annmarie 43:44

just letting some of that amazing energy out And when I come

Kim 43:49

Yes.

Annmarie 43:49

back down at the computer I'm ready to be creative again And my entire life revolves around creativity Like whether I'm writing a book doing something like this drawing something whatever it may be And so without that It just doesn't work

Kim 44:04

Right.

Annmarie 44:05

I have talked about this You know we can tell when we have sat at the computer all day that

Kim 44:10

Yes.

Annmarie 44:10

by about three o'clock in the afternoon I think everything I have done that day sucks

Kim 44:15

Yes.

Annmarie 44:15

worst paragraph I ever wrote That is the worst thing I ever drew You know this is never going to work this podcast or whatever it may be

Kim 44:23

Hmm.

Annmarie 44:23

because I've been sitting sedentary and I haven't allowed myself any time for play for silliness

Kim 44:30

Well that, yeah, and that's what I was thinking as you were saying that. I'm like, what if you know every 45 minutes or 90 minutes, not that you have to be on a timer, you allowed yourself to get up and move that energy around because. When you come back, this is the other thing I want to encourage is like, I'm a big journaler, so I always say like, journal it, but just keep a piece of paper around Right. And mark down how you feel before, how you feel after. And, keep track of it, right? Because we're also in a time and space where everything has to be proven. Like you have to have evidence to back it up, right? So if you need that. 'cause sometimes, some of us do. There's no judgment about that. It's the culture that we live in, but keep track of it. And I know you're going to find, 'cause I, I just know this from my own experience, when you allow yourself that freedom, whatever it looks like to play, to be silly, to move around in wild abandon, right? When you come back to whatever you're coming back to, you're going to see things in a different way. You're going to feel lighter, you're going to have a different perspective, and it's just going to be better all around. You can't go wrong.

Annmarie 45:45

If you're a to-do list person put play on your to-do list It'll at least give you something to check

Kim 45:49

Yes,

Annmarie 45:49

these

Kim 45:49

exactly.

Annmarie 45:50

these are the baby steps right Put it on your to-do

Kim 45:53

Exactly.

Annmarie 45:53

Write down before and after how you're feeling Give it as a gift to somebody else Like this is not the eventual goal but if it is what it takes you to get there

Kim 46:02

Yep.

Annmarie 46:02

then get

Kim 46:03

Look, it doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you get there. Right.

Annmarie 46:06

Agreed Which is a great lesson in and of itself So I think that's we'll wrap up for today I want to thank you for your time and for being the first Play Date. and I

Kim 46:15

Thank you. Thanks. I'm so excited. I'm really looking forward to roller skating.

Annmarie 46:22

A huge thank you to Kim for being my very willing guinea pig on this very first Play Date episode. I could not have asked for a better sport. And thank you for being here and listening along. I really hope something in this conversation landed for you. I know it did for me, and not just about play and creativity, but honestly about podcasting too. Turns out one of the best practices is not talking over your guest. I guess I'm still a work in progress. But here's the question I wanna leave you with: What are the roller skates in your life? Kim talked about getting roller skates as an adult, full of excitement, and then never once lacing them up, and we've all got a version of that, something we wanted badly enough to acquire, but not quite enough to actually do. So what are your roller skates? And more importantly, how are you gonna lace them up? If you need a little nudge, navigate on over to annmarieboyle.com/thewonderproject and subscribe to my free four-week email series built around getting you back to playing and creating in small, doable, gentle ways. No pressure, just permission. Okay. That's it for this week. I'll see you next time. Now go play.