EP 4: Play Date with Kristen Tate

Kristen Tate is my book editor, a self-described introvert, and someone who has intentionally built play back into her life more than once. Which means this conversation felt a little like sitting down with someone who understands how easy it is to forget fun isn’t supposed to require a permission slip.

We talk about why live music might secretly be the perfect introvert activity, how camping dramatically lowers your expectations in the best possible way, and the oddly liberating experience of going alone to the things you love.

We also chat about the blurry line between work and play, how to recognize when something you once loved has quietly turned into another obligation, and why Kristen spent part of COVID writing a historical mystery longhand… only to deliberately tuck it away in a drawer afterward.

Plus: Kristen shares how she’s able to still read for fun when books are literally her profession and a few low-cost ways to add a little more play to your own life this week.

Find out more about Kristen at: https://www.thebluegarret.com/

Find the show notes at: https://annmarieboyle.com/i-used-to-be-fun-podcast/

Music from Uppbeat (https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/to-the-top), License code BC9SEN3G6PMABOA

www.annmarieboyle.com

Music from Uppbeat (https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/to-the-top), License code BC9SEN3G6PMABOA

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to I Used to Be Fun, the podcast about remembering who you were before life got so serious. I'm Annmarie Boyle, author, creativity instigator, and recovering overachiever. And each week, we explore how reconnecting to creativity and play helps us feel more alive, inspired, and like ourselves again. So set down the to-do list, grab a cup of coffee, and let's go find some fun

Annmarie 0:39

Welcome to or welcome back to I Used to be Fun. Kind of think that maybe I should be saying, "I'm Annmarie, and I used to be fun," but, but I'm digressing. So today's episode is another play date, and my guest is someone who has seen every version of me as a writer. The confident version, which is a very small percentage of the time, the I'm-gonna-light-this-manuscript-on-fire version, which is a much larger part of the time, and then pretty much everything else in between. She's been my hand holder, my cheerleader, my tough love when I need it person, and she is my editor, Kristen Tate, and I'm so excited she's here. Welcome to I Used to be Fun, Kristen.

Kristen 1:23

Thanks, Annmarie. I love this, fun new experiment, and I just want to make it clear I love all, all the Annmaries that I have

Annmarie 1:30

That's good. I have a lot of personalities my husband would tell people. So I've already told everyone what you mean to me, but I'd love now for you to tell them a little bit about yourself. So who are you? Where are you? What do you do? Give us a little brief synopsis.

Kristen 1:47

Yeah. So as you said, I'm a book editor. I've been doing that, full-time for a little over a decade now, and we can-- kinda wraps into the fun story, so we might get into that. I'm based in San Francisco, and I have two kids, one who's in college, all the way over in Australia in Sydney, and, one who is in high school. And I have a partner and some cats. It's a good, it's a good, happy life, actually.

Annmarie 2:14

I want to eventually get into the reason that you and I know each other, which is books and reading and all of that fun stuff, but I wanted to start with the actual reason I invited you to be my play date today, and I didn't tell Kristen why this was. So normally I start out, my first question for the play date guest is, do you consider yourself someone who plays? But I feel like I might already know your answer because I know through both your newsletter, which is amazing, and our work together that you are a camper and that you seek out live music regularly. And I mean, honestly, your website bio says that a fierce game of Bananagrams in a dive bar is your idea of a great time, which is a fantastic line, by the way. So it seems to me like you already prioritize fun and play. Would you agree with that statement?

Kristen 3:09

Yes, and I will also I'll say two things. One, I had to fight to get to that version of myself, and I found her 40. I lost her there for a good chunk of time. And then I realized recently I had kinda lost her again I, went straight from COVID malaise into perimenopausal malaise without realizing that's what was happening. And I am just now, like in this past year, I feel like digging myself out of that. So there was a period there where those things were all still true, and I was still doing many of them, and yet it felt like my play things had kind of become routine, And I needed to mix it up a little bit.

Annmarie 4:02

Before we dig further into that piece of it, of having fun, losing fun, having fun, losing fun, I'd like to know how you define play now What does the word actually mean to you?

Kristen 4:15

Yeah, I think for me it means a couple things. One is about doing something that's new like, something that is stretching my boundaries a little bit, So, like, in music terms, if I had to pick one band, it would probably be Wilco. And, I'm blessed to live in this great music town where we have all these great venues, and so I always go see them And like, yes, each show is kinda different, but I also, like, it's... You're, like, bathing in Wilco and Jeff Tweedy and, and all of that. And like, most of the audience is exactly my age. It's a bunch of, Gen Xers and millennials. Um, I'd... One of the, the shows I went to was at the Greek Theatre in Berkeley, which is huge, and they were not even bothering to card anyone there. So usually at a show, you have to show your ID and get a wristband. They did not even care, 'cause they were like, "This entire crowd is over 21. We're not gonna bother." So, you know, one of the things I've been trying to do is go to new acts. And luckily, my kids are very into music, and so they turn me onto things. I also have friends around me who are like, "Let's go see this person in this small venue." So, I actually went to see a newer artist, Grace Ives, last week, and my friend and I were looking around, and we were among the oldest. And we were like, "This is what we need to keep doing," And I had never heard her stuff. My friend had heard her at Outside Lands last year and wanted to hear more. So I think newness and, pressing my boundaries and going to things I don't know if I'll like. I went to a punk show earlier in the year that was so much fun. and then I think also doing things that I've never done before. My, daughter is an artist and, like, her art very, carefully and conscientiously and has learned a lot. I'm a writer, but in terms of, like, graphic art, it's just not something I really have done a whole lot. Even as a child, I didn't do it a whole lot. But I took a watercolor class, earlier this year. That really felt like play, 'cause, I had zer- Like, I wasn't gonna sell this watercolor or frame it. I was maybe even just gonna recycle it if it was bad. I just wanted to, spend a peaceful day mucking around with some watercolors and doing something with my brain and my that was, that felt new and fresh

Annmarie 6:44

Those are the pieces that we lose as adults when everything has to be a responsibility, and everything has to check a box. So if I can bring this back around to music, I'm always curious as to what intrigues people, and you can make this bigger than music obviously, but that's the place where we started. But what hooked you? What hooked you into live music? Was there a moment? Was there a show?

Kristen 7:08

I don't even know if I can articulate that. I have just always, always loved music. I've also always loved books, but books are something that I studied, I was an English major in college. I have a PhD in English. Like, I just kept studying them, and I haven't stopped. And so I actually know a lot about how they work, and now, and like I've made it my whole job. I can still read for pleasure. I can actually turn off. I know some editors cannot turn off editor brain. I luckily still can. So it's not that I don't read for pleasure, but it's also just my area of expertise. So there's always some of my brain that's clicking along about like, "Oh, she's doing this thing," or, "Oh, who... Like, I didn't expect this, you know, to take this turn," and registering that. Whereas music has always been this thing where I just am a fan. really pure. Like, it is just... I don't even know how it works. don't know why I like the things I like necessarily. I've never pressed myself to articulate it. I can just show up and be in it, and I think part of it, like the really magical thing for me about live music in particular is that it really is an experience, and you are, you are in it. And you can have expectations about what that's gonna be like, right? So here in San Francisco, the Fillmore is maybe my, favorite venue. It has this aura. You come up the stairs, and there are all the posters of all, the artists who have played there over the decades. And, often the performers on stage are feeling that same juice, and so you just get this like really vibrant show often, but also not always, and you can't predict it. But you just need to be kind of alive and alert to what's happening around you. Some of that's about the crowd or, you know, sometimes it's about the performers. I went to a show last year that was, OK Go, wh- which was a kind of newer band to me. They showed up with confetti cannons, and it was... Everyone was delirious. And the show was at a really dark time. I mean, I don't know when it's not dark. But like they just brought so much joy, and I felt so grateful to just be in there. Like, I think music and theater, this is true too of theater, being in the crowd and being in the like... There's a certain level of like anything could happen in a live performance, and performers feel that. We feel that in the audience. In novel-writing terms, like the stakes are higher. You know about this 'cause you've written books about musicians. So you know,

Annmarie 9:49

Right.

Kristen 9:51

and that just totally lights me up.

Annmarie 9:55

Now you're an editor and into books and words, and that would lead me to believe you're an introvert. Is that true?

Kristen 10:00

Oh, 100%. Yeah

Annmarie 10:02

Do you have any hesitation about that, about being an introvert, being in that crowd? Or if you don't, what, if somebody out there really wants to do this and really wants to add live music to their play menu, shall we say, what advice would you give them about going to these events that can be, you said anything can happen, which means they can be exceptionally unpredictable, exceptionally loud, things like that?

Kristen 10:23

Yeah. Oh, I have so many tips, in part because I have a kid who is sound sensitive, and who also enjoys live music but needs scaffolding around it. So, like very practical tips is every venue has a kind of quiet area. So go early Find where that is. So at The Fillmore, there's like the poster room upstairs, which is still so cool. It's like full of posters, and you can get a drink, and you can get a hot dog, and you can get a cookie, and you can just like chill out for a little bit, and then you can go back downstairs and get back into the music. So go early and find out where those spaces are, and know... So just know where you can retreat to. Like at minimum, there's the bathroom. Like just know that you can go in there and just, know. Or go in and out. Like my partner smokes, and so he goes out and gets a breather. Like you could go out and get a breather and hang out with the smokers or not, and then come back into the venue. You're allowed to do that. You know, we're older, and I want to have my hearing for a long time, so I bring ear protection always 'cause you never know when a show is gonna be super loud. There's a brand called Loops, and so you can put them in and really adjust it in such a way that you can kinda get more or less. Partner also uses his AirPods now for this, and you can like really adjust things. So, you know, try that out. then say, especially as an introvert attending shows, you can do this two different ways, and I've done both, and I like both. One of the great things about shows is like you are with people, but you are not talking to them. And in fact, like I'll just, like PSA, if you're at a show, you can talk in between songs, but like no one wants to hear you jabbering loudly. That does the heck out of me. Just like be in the music. So you can go have this event with a group of friends. You can maybe have dinner beforehand or drink afterwards, but like during the show, like you're all just there together. My standard concert friend and I like, it's funny we're not very touchy in like our regular life, but we get to a show, and we're like dancing. We're like hugging. We were at like this Grace Ives show. Our other friend was crying at one point. It's a good, healthy way for introverts to let, let their emotions out. It's dark. You know, it's just... So go with friends, and like, I don't know, experiment with your own tolerance for nonverbal communication. But you can also go solo. This is one of those things that I think introverts think they will hate, but if you do it and you get comfortable with it, it can be really magical because like you can just go by yourself. one knows that you're there by yourself. No one is judging you, and frankly F them if they are. That's their problem. I feel like the older I get, the less I care about any of that. then you can just be having your own experience, like just with the music and the band. Put yourself in a spot that feels comfortable and just, just watch.

Annmarie 13:26

I love all of that. There were so many things I wanted to pick out of that. The first one, you know, as just to hit it again, is that really what you're saying is nothing is off-limits for anybody, right? Find the tools that work, and I love the idea of even going solo. Like, we have so many rules in our culture about what fun and play and joy and all of that is supposed to look like, but it's different for all of us. If what you need is a night out away from your kids and your partner, go solo,

Kristen 13:54

Yeah.

Annmarie 13:54

right? Do something. Exactly. Like that, that's even less expensive then, right? My father is an extreme introvert and very, very shy, and we always joke on... It's the Myers-Briggs, I think it is, that there's the question about, would you rather be in a room with five people or in a room with 500 people? And for both of us, it trips us up because where they're leading you is you want to be in a room with five people. You want to be at that dive bar playing Bananagrams with your three closest friends. But him and I will always say, like, "I'd rather be in the 500 because nobody pays any attention to me." Right? So that's a little bit of, of thinking forward on, "Oh, hey, maybe this is something to add to my play menu, and it isn't something that is insurmountable for me if I have," whether it's sensory challenges or introvertedness or, you know, whatever it is. I love all of that. And since We're talking about going solo or figuring out the things that you love to do the most or leaving your partner at home to watch the kids, what are ways that you've figured out that are particularly effective to protect that playtime?

Kristen 15:01

Yeah, that I will say that is very much a work in progress for me. And it, it keeps changing, right? Because, my family schedule keeps changing. So I, I went through like a very sudden, very dramatic, very traumatic divorce just before I was 40. And, we ended up with a kind of classic like 1960s, divorce parent schedule, where I had the kids during the week and my partner, my ex, had them, on weekends. And so of a sudden I had weekends free. I had- to San Francisco when I was pregnant with my first, and like, so all of, all of my friends had kids. and I just had to figure out what to do with myself 'cause At first I was just so lonely. You know, I was really grieving, my intact family that had fallen apart. I missed my kids so much. I missed the things that I used to do with them on the weekends. And so it really took me a year to kinda climb out of that. then I started to realize, well, I mean, I have this empty time, and that's really when I started asking myself, like, what do I, what do I love? And I found my way back to live music, I discovered camping, I discovered hiking, I started dating. These are all great things that you can do, you know, as an adult without children, and so I leaned into that. So then things shifted, so like when COVID hit, for example, and we were all just here all the time, I instituted what I called I don't know if you're cussing on this podcast, so I'll call it F It Fridays.

Annmarie 16:38

Yes. No, we can cuss. It's okay.

Kristen 16:39

let's do it. So I, I started Fuck It Fridays. So Fridays, no one was allowed to need anything from me. You got dinner from the fridge. We rent in San Francisco, and we lucked into this place that has a hot tub in the backyard, which means we can basically never leave it. and so like I would go in the hot tub and, you know, we would eat asynchronously. I would come in and like trashy magazines or just give myself an evening to not do anything that I had to do. So that was my solution then. And now we're kind of in flux again and like trying to figure out, um, you know, one of my kids is out of the house, the other one is much more independent. Like, we don't really need, Fuck It Fridays, so much anymore. It's more of a struggle of like, when are we doing things all together? So I think I'm still like in search of How to give myself regular permission, but I know it needs to find that kind of shape. I guess the other thing I will name too is this, my close music friend, coined the term Fuck It Fall, which I've actually written about in my newsletter and

Annmarie 17:41

Yep.

Kristen 17:41

Because fall is, like, the most beautiful in San Francisco, and there's this collision of Hardly Strictly Bluegrass, which is this free festival in Golden Gate Park and is, like, my favorite. It's like Christmas and all of the holidays wrapped into one for me. And it's, like, the best weather for camping, and there's free stuff all over town because it's not gonna rain, and it's not gonna be foggy, and Litquake happens, so you're just spoiled for choice. And so I try to kind of block off time for that whole season. I try to have a less busy, work life in October. I try to not plan anything that I don't want to do on the weekends 'cause I know it's gonna fill up. I need to block those weekends for all the things I'm gonna want to do. So just having seasons maybe that you know are, like, your special seasons, like your special month where, like, you have Maybe it's your birthday month. I don't know.

Annmarie 18:35

I just think the idea of intentionally setting aside time, and obviously we all have very different schedules. You and I are self-employed. We can make our schedules. That's a great freedom. It's also a heavy lift, but it is also a freedom that we can do that, and it doesn't have to be an entire season. My husband is an academic, and he is starting his next sabbatical in the next few weeks. and we've often traveled and lived other places. We're not doing that this time. But I sat down with him last weekend and I said, "Listen, it-- what if we did this over the summer where we said we were working four hours a day and then the rest, just for the summer, just June through August," and we worked Four hours in the morning, and then we did something else in the afternoon. The something else is what's gonna be tricky 'cause, getting back to, like, living into that moment and living into, like, "Oh, we don't have to feel guilty about this. We made the decision to do this." And I have a feeling that we're both gonna get more done when we only have four hours in the day than we actually do now. And please don't tell my editor, but I've set my book aside till September 1st. Don't tell her. Uh, but that was what I had to do. Like, I wanted to focus on getting this podcast off the ground. I wanted to spend that time with my husband, but it is that. Where can you find that if it's 15 minutes in your day, if it's a half an hour, if it's Friday afternoons? So look in your life. Where is it that you can do that? Where can you protect the time? And it just makes life, the rest of it, actually easier because you've, you've filled your cup,

Kristen 20:11

Oh,

Annmarie 20:11

know, in a way that, that other things... Yes, maybe work fills your cup, and I've got a question about that for you in a few minutes. But, um, and certainly being with your kids fill your, fills your cup. But we, as women, use our children and our grandchildren as an excuse to play,

Kristen 20:30

Yep.

Annmarie 20:31

and I think we need to find ways to do that for ourselves as well.

Kristen 20:35

Yeah.

Annmarie 20:35

Not instead of, but in addition.

Kristen 20:37

Yeah, and I think that permission part and like, you know, like the time blocking is important. Like putting it on your calendar and letting it be there and be as legitimate as anything else on your calendar, I think is really, really the key.

Annmarie 20:55

I agree completely. Since we're talking about self-employment, I'm curious. The girlfriend I talked to in the last Playdate episode, also an entrepreneur, we often discuss whether work can be play

Kristen 21:07

Mm.

Annmarie 21:08

a source of fun. And so since you also own your own business, I'd like your take on that. Can work be fun?

Kristen 21:15

Oh. I mean, yes. I think-- I don't know if fun's the right word. I mean, it definitely can be fun. You and I were together at the AuthorNation Conference in November in Las Vegas, and actually I do not, find Las Vegas fun at all. I find it

Annmarie 21:31

Me neither.

Kristen 21:32

very, very draining. But it was really fun to be, at a dinner with all these people I had worked with and who were finding, you know, common things with one another. It was really fun to kind of be in rooms and, you know, just that mix of like professional learning and gossip, That is really fun. And there are other parts that are fun. I think... What is the term that I would use? I mean, I think it's like, it's rewarding. I'm really proud of the business that I've built. I'm proud of the work that I do. It's rewarding and fulfilling, and I just feel, like I'm driving the bus here, you know? I get to decide. And then I think, too, you know, one thing that I've done in recent years is I have my editing work, but I also do my own analytical and, writing work. And that is also work, but it's more... It doesn't... It has... If it has deadlines, and it actually does right now, you can see be-behind me all my papers are spread out 'cause I'm revising what is gonna be my next book. So I wouldn't call it fun, but it's it's enlivening, right? It's that combination of like, it feels like something I should be doing, it's something I'm good at, and I want to do it. It's the opposite of like soul-sapping, right? Can we ask more of work than that? I'm not sure that we can.

Annmarie 22:53

I love that answer, and I think that's maybe the answer that I've been looking for for a while. Because there are days where it does feel like fun, and there are certainly days where it does feel like play. I owned a retail business years and years ago. It's 20 years ago now, and I still remember this moment so clearly. I was three months into ownership of it, and I realized I'd forgotten to pay myself because it was fun, right? However, I do think that your definition, and you know, you're good with words, of it being enlightening and enriching and even cup-filling is maybe a better way of saying it, and we save that fun and that play piece of it for something outside of that, something that's nourishing in a different way. I kinda like that. I'm gonna let that sit in my head for a little while and see what I think about it. But let's go back to the books.

Kristen 23:47

Yeah. Always get

Annmarie 23:48

You mentioned, yes, always back to the books. You mentioned earlier that you still can read for pleasure, and I can too. I mean, my, my job isn't as intense inside the words as yours, but I don't read a book the same way. After I've published my own books, I'm always asking "How is the writer doing this?" Or, "I think maybe this book is a DNF, but I gotta see if this author can pull it out."

Kristen 24:12

Yeah.

Annmarie 24:13

Right? So I'll stick with a book that maybe somebody else wouldn't stick with, things like that. But do you consider reading part of your playtime?

Kristen 24:22

I think for me it's like reading is just life. Like, I can't not read. It's how I go to sleep. it's how I wake up. It is just all the things for me. Depending on what I'm reading in my work life and how many things I'm reading, and what genres they're in, what I generally do is I will switch genres. So I'll be working with an author and they, um... Especially if I'm doing a developmental edit, I'll ask them to tell me about some books that might be, comparative titles for them. And if I'm not familiar with them, often I'll read those kind of leading up to the edit, and I'll read those in my personal time. And so those I'll be noticing a little bit more, but then during the edit, I really intentionally read something in a totally different genre, or I'll switch to nonfiction. will do either extreme. So either I'll be reading something that is, like, very, very plot driven and page turnering, It helps me turn off the analytical brain 'cause I just, I get caught up in the, like, what's gonna happen next. Or I go to the other extreme and I read something very, very literary, very, very slow, it's so slow that I'm just bringing my mental temperature down a little bit. and I think the other couple tricks I've learned too is that save a lot of my, like, analytical thinking about books for a second read. Like, I, like, if you really

Annmarie 25:49

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kristen 25:52

read it through one time really quickly and then immediately start reading it again. You're gonna be a little bit bored, but actually, the boredom helps you notice the deeper craft stuff. my first read is more for fun, and just, like, being a reader and, noticing my instincts. And sometimes I will, I definitely highlight a lot of things. Like, "Oh, I kinda want to go back and look at this," but I try to turn off the analytical brain. then, I recently discovered, audiobooks. I listen to nonfiction a lot in audio, but just recently, have started doing... You know, for the, the books I analyze really deeply, in my, novel study work, I often will listen to it first in audio because it helps me just let the story wash over me. Just try to react to it emotionally or psychologically or, feel my fear response or whatever it is. It just helps me tap into my instincts a little bit more. And also, I can't stop and reread a sentence to see how it works. I just have to be in the story. So I've started doing that now, um, you know, if it's something I just want to experience.

Annmarie 27:08

I hadn't really ever thought about the not being able to stop and analyze the sentence.

Kristen 27:13

Yeah.

Annmarie 27:13

so that's a great tip.

Kristen 27:15

I think, too, it, like, helps you be in your body a little bit more weirdly. Like, I find

Annmarie 27:20

True.

Kristen 27:20

that I can, if I-- especially if I'm li-listening with AirPods in, I, like... One of the things I've discovered in my menopausal years is that I like sitting and laying on the floor. I did not know this about myself. It's just really deeply relaxing. And, like, you can do this outside of yoga class. It turns out you're allowed. So, I love just laying on the floor and listening to an audiobook and just, like, myself be in my body, and it just, like... I don't know. It's not like holding a book and turning the pages. It's just like- stressful, but like there is something about just having the story told to me, or just like walking, you know, or sitting outside. So like you kinda can get this like extra piece of like, you know, your body being able to relax in a different way too while you're listening.

Annmarie 28:12

You know there's some enterprising entrepreneur out there right now that is now figuring out how to do Shavasana with audiobooks. That'll be their whole one-hour class.

Kristen 28:21

I would go to that class.

Annmarie 28:23

Me too. Absolutely. And I think that part of it is it's permission, right? I think that's why we all love that Shavasana at the end of yoga because we're forced to lay there. We don't have any other choice. Switching gears a bit, have you ever given any thought to writing fiction yourself?

Kristen 28:40

I have, and that was something I played with, during COVID. Like m- like actually many... I feel like probably half of my editing business were COVID novels. Not, not like, not thematically, but like, you

Annmarie 28:54

Yes.

Kristen 28:54

had time to write, and I did too. So I actually, um, for a good year there, I spent the hour that I would've spent, getting my kids up and like herding them through breakfast and driving them to school, like I, I had that hour just... You know, the cost of that was really high but

Annmarie 29:13

Right.

Kristen 29:15

in my day, and I was like, "I don't want to just start working earlier," and I needed something for myself. And so I did, sit down, and I would come to my office and light a candle, it was usually still dark, and have my coffee. And I wrote, like the first draft of a historical mystery actually, longhand in a notebook over COVID. And then I played around with it for a while and decided it was gonna need a lot of work, and At the point where it turned from play to work,

Annmarie 29:51

Mm.

Kristen 29:51

I was like, "I don't want to work on this, and it is no longer play, and so it's time for it to just go in the drawer. And if I want to work on it again, then I can." I think I would have to, I would have to start a totally different book for it to feel like play.

Annmarie 30:14

Most authors out there, particularly people who've been trying to put out books quickly, like independently published authors who, you know, in the-- for a while there it was like a book a month, or you have to do four a year. My brain doesn't work that way. But even in that situation, I put out, I'll say six books, s-six stories 'cause there was two novellas in there, in three years. It took me a while to write the first book, but they were published in that amount of time, and I honestly think I burnt out.

Kristen 30:40

Mm.

Annmarie 30:41

it's, you know, you and I have had a lot of conversations lately about why this next book is so hard.

Kristen 30:46

Yeah.

Annmarie 30:50

to be fun for me, it had to sit on the line of play and work, and it just dumped into work. So I know exactly what you're s-talking about, and I think the message for anybody listening is pay attention in your body when that happens. When you think you're doing something for play, and all of a sudden it starts feeling like work, then you have to either reclassify it, or put it in the drawer,

Kristen 31:11

find other techniques. When I work with people who are having to do like major, major revisions of their book, like that process definitely feels like work. You know this. It can feel like a slog, you know. But you do want to try to recapture some play, because part of what play does, I think, is like it helps new ideas and new insights get into the draft. And so sometimes that means... I think it means stepping away from the words that you've already written and that are in your Microsoft Word document or your Scrivener. Go get a notebook. Go outside. Get one of those giant like artist notebooks that are totally blank and like, I don't know, so you can like do little drawings and stuff. Put all of your scenes on sticky notes or-- and like, you know, have a wall where you're moving them around. Like find some aspect of it that feels fun at all and that can let loose that of creative, playful brain and like infuse it in there. You have to work harder to find the play, but you can do it.

Annmarie 32:18

So what you're saying here is I shouldn't be forcing it all the time? You've never said that to me before.

Kristen 32:24

Ding!

Annmarie 32:25

Ding, ding, ding. She finally hears it. No, I've, I've heard it. I've heard it. I think that the concept of what you're talking about is super important as well. Play, by its very definition, is not meant to be productive. Kids are doing it so well because they are figuring out life, to your point, like figure out a new way to look at this, and they're using play to do that. But I do think it is very possible to add more joy, play, and fun to almost everything that we do. Not everything, clearly.

Kristen 32:53

Yeah.

Annmarie 32:53

most things that we do, we can find a way to say, "Okay, let's turn that a little bit and look at it a little differently." And that allows us then to, I think, move through life in an easier way and a lighter way. It doesn't have to be either/or. You can have fun and play in your work, where we started with this, and you can also have it just

Kristen 33:13

Yeah.

Annmarie 33:13

it is.

Kristen 33:14

Yeah, I think that's totally true.

Annmarie 33:16

Do you think that, you know, we've talked about several different things for you, whether it's reading or it's playing games or it's music or it's books, camping, do they feed the same parts of you? Do they feed different parts of you?

Kristen 33:29

I think they feed different parts. Until I was like 40-something, i didn't understand camping. Like, I didn't get it. I grew up in the South. It's humid. Like, the outside in the South, unless you're on a beach, is often, not nice. I don't know. I didn't grow up camping. My family doesn't camp. And then I lived in New York City, and, like, New Yorkers don't camp 'cause they don't have cars, and they don't have, closets to keep all... Like, camping is, like, there's a lot of stuff camping. And then I moved to San Francisco, and everyone around me is camping. School trips are going camping, and this makes a lot of sense 'cause our weather is, generally perfect, and, there aren't... I mean, there's some bears, but, we don't have a lot of... bugs, actually. Like, a lot of the, things that would make camping unpleasant in other places is just not true here. And, we're surrounded by this absolutely gorgeous scenery. So I got lured into it, and I just never thought of myself as, like... I mean, like, I'm a book nerd. I never thought of myself as, an outdoors-doorsy person. But when I let go of that, and I just, like, experienced camping, and I got over, the initial discomfort of what are we doing here?" There's something about being outside, being in the fresh air like 24, 48 hours, e- even longer, it just, it feels like your cells are just being replaced or something. I just feel physically really different after I've done that, and I don't know why it works. Sometimes it's... Like, camping actually can be a lot of work like especially the prep. We prep all our meals beforehand and, I have a very fussy way I do, my ice in the cooler. And there's, definitely, like, 24 hours of, like, "Why are we doing this? This is so much work." And then we get out there and, everything is prepped, and I think, the world kinda shrinks down. Like, your obligations are just hang out. Maybe you're gonna take a hike. You're gonna feed yourself. You're gonna make a fire. There's just limited stuff. You don't have electricity if you're doing it right, in my opinion. I'm a little judgy about camping. I do car camping mostly, so o- other people can judge me. People do it much more extreme ways. I think there's just... I think part of play and, any kind of good relaxation is limiting your options in a certain way, even if it's for a certain amount of time. Like, focus on this. And, when you're camping, it's kinda just, like, focus on breathing air and looking at the trees and feeding yourself every once in a while, staying warm, finding a good place to go to the bathroom. Like, there's just there's not that many things you have to do really.

Annmarie 36:14

No, I love that. We used to camp, and we got to a certain point where I'm like, "I can't sleep on the ground anymore." So I-- And I grew up camping. We tent camped. Like, I'm the same way with you. I don't want to do it if it's in an RV. That's just a tiny house, and I'll have a cabin on a lake. Thank you very much. But we got to this point where it's like we either buy cots or we just start renting rustic cabins, and we went the rustic cabins direction. But I completely agree with you with being outside and the, and just the nature realigning all bits of you. I think that's so So important and so real. But the piece I wrote down was limiting your options. And I think we think of this... Like, most of us can think we need to put our phone down more often, right? Limit that option. Don't sink into into social media all the time. Don't, don't fall into that hole. But what a great, kind of question every time you're going to do something that it should be for pure fun, pure joy, pure play, is, "Can I limit my options?" We can always make things simpler, I think. And with that, it allows us to be... It would allow me, and I guess would... I would think it would allow other people to be more present,

Kristen 37:24

Yeah,

Annmarie 37:25

type of thing.

Kristen 37:26

really the thing too is like can't... Like the-- I think one of the hallmarks of good play is like being absorbed in it, and if you limit the other things that are coming at you or that you're thinking about it, you have a better chance at sinking into that really cool, you know, absorption state that's the, the best play.

Annmarie 37:49

It is. And one of my biggest struggles in life is being in the present. I'm super good at analyzing the past. And let me tell you, I know what's gonna happen 16 years from now. But to stay in this moment. And part of that for me would be limiting the options. It would be taking away the computer, the phone, whatever it is that I think, TV even, right? Like, it just is one of those things where if I have to just sit and be and/or I'm just with paints or fabric, like I lose myself in that completely. And so to really bring back, okay, what options are you gonna take out here,

Kristen 38:22

Yeah.

Annmarie 38:22

a really positive way. So I'm gonna ask you one more question, and then I'm gonna ask for some bits of advice for the people that are listening. So the last question is, you mentioned when we first started about, like, you were playful, you weren't playful. And that obviously came through some grief and trauma with your divorce, being a single parent all of those things. And then you said you're working your way back to it again now, I think is what you said. And I'm curious about how you right the ship or how you even notice that the ship is running aground.

Kristen 38:54

Yeah. I think one of the things I'm trying really hard to get better at, and I, I did not start out being good at this, is like just really noticing my

Annmarie 39:03

Hmm.

Kristen 39:05

and paying attention to whether I'm happy or not. Like that seems like it should be really obvious, and I think often it's not. You know? I think especially for women, we're really good at getting things done, like showing up as the person we're expected to be. And I think one of the things my divorce gave me actually is that well, like that life went up in flames, and so then- The opportunity then was like, I got to figure out what was next. I'm, like, very content in my current life, and I don't want it to go up in flames, and yet need to make room for some things to be different. My kids are different ages than they were five years ago, and, the difference between, like, 17 and 12 monumental,

Annmarie 40:02

Yeah.

Kristen 40:03

And so, seeing what things can go away and, what new things can happen and just, you know, trying to pay attention to, like, what have I never thought about that I might like to try? What have I not done in a long time that I'd like to resurrect? I just got a new bike recently. We have a smart bike in our garage, and I, I use that for exercise, and I actually quite enjoy that. But I thought I was like, "I could also bike outside in this, beautiful city that I live in. Like, what would that look like? How can I make that happen?" Just continuing to think about, what new things I can try. My little immediate family, we all really love food. And so, my daughter and I were in LA recently to look at colleges and staying in Koreatown, and neither one of us had had much Korean food. So we went to this amazing place, and it had this, like, ugh, really spicy, really sour tofu soup that came in a boiling pot and came with all of these, a fried fish and a little dish of marinated tripe and, things that I didn't even know what substance it might have been. And it just was so much fun for both of us just to, like, have something brand new. So just, like, I think where I'm getting stale, right? And thinking about, "Okay, how can I mix things up here?" Not in a burn my life down kind of way, in a, gentler way.

Annmarie 41:37

Yeah, nobody wants to burn their life down. Well, most people don't want to burn their life down, but

Kristen 41:40

recommend

Annmarie 41:42

No, no, I wouldn't recommend it either. But the concept of it, of if my life burns down, there is life on the other side of it, and what will I change? When something changes, whether you quit a job or you lose a job or you get divorced or you become an empty nester,

Kristen 41:58

Yeah.

Annmarie 41:58

it is. Like, there's, in, in my mind, I'm not a parent, but I'm at the age where all my friends are fledging their kids, and it is really tough, but there's also this new sense of freedom. A- and then there's also this, "Well, who even am I now?"

Kristen 42:16

Yeah.

Annmarie 42:17

Especially as women, we define ourselves as mothers so strongly in our culture. And I do think that if we leave ourselves open to what that possibility is after the change, we can fill in with some things that maybe we haven't been giving ourselves for years. I wrote down three things as you were talking, and I think these are great pieces of advice that have been a thread through our whole conversation. First one is creating space for things. The second one is trying new things, which you started with at the very beginning. And then I oftentimes, have asked people, "What did you love to do when you were a kid?" And looking back you asked something similar "What did I used to love?" Right? And it doesn't have to be when you were a kid, but like, "Did I like to ride a bike? My last guest was like, "I loved to roller skate, and my nieces gave me roller skates one year, and I left, I've left them in the box. I'm gonna get them out." And you better believe I'm gonna follow up with her and ask, "Did you get the roller skates out?" Because I think it's really important that we, we do that, and we can think back when we were freer and there was less on our plate, what would we have spent our time doing?

Kristen 43:20

Yep.

Annmarie 43:21

Yeah. So my last questions before I let you off for the day, I want to know what you would tell a woman listening right now who's thinking, I would love to go see some live music," or, "I would love to read a book, but I can't justify spending money on concert tickets. I don't have time to read for fun anymore." What kind of advice would you give them?

Kristen 43:45

Well, I would say, like, you have to find a way. Like, there's always a way.

Annmarie 43:49

Agreed.

Kristen 43:50

Swift tickets, very expensive. New band you've never heard of that's performing in your town at a small venue, it's probably 25 bucks sometimes free.

Annmarie 44:02

Right. Hmm

Kristen 44:06

Time is like, you just have to be kind of an asshole about it. you just have to put it on your calendar and be serious about it, I think. And I think the other thing I would say is, like, I definitely, when I was, you know, even in my 20s and probably well into my 30s, I just thought that there was gonna be some moment where, I was, I was, done. I was, complete, and I was, like, a fully actualized person, and I was gonna no longer change. And I think I'm starting... I'm, like, I think I'm 52 now. I might be 53. I don't know. It gets hazy in here.

Annmarie 44:41

Mm-hmm.

Kristen 44:42

I don't think this is true. I think actually we keep changing, and we're allowed to, and it's exciting. If other people don't like it, well, F them. Give yourself permission to discover something new about yourself even in your 50s. Like I think you can. I think that's what I would say.

Annmarie 45:01

You absolutely can. And I don't know if I've ever shared this with you, but my very favorite, very favorite review I ever got on a book, it was for my very first book, So in my first book, the main female character is 44, and the main male character is 35. So she's a little bit older than he is. Scandal. I know. And the review said, "Clearly, this author doesn't understand what people in their 30s and 40s are like." And I was, let's see, I launched that book in 2020, which would've made me 51 at the time, and I giggled, I giggled so hard. And then, I don't know why, but I clicked over to, this was on Goodreads, and I clicked over to her Goodreads. And for some reason, she had her age on her Goodreads, and she was 21.

Kristen 45:51

Ah,

Annmarie 45:51

I thought it, it, it kinda broke my heart actually, 'cause she was thinking exactly what you were thinking. Like, "Oh, by the time I'm 30, by the time I'm 40, I'm gonna have my shit figured out." And no, honey, no. You might know what your shit is at that point but you don't, you're just gonna keep going through it. But that's why it's important to continue to add creativity to your life

Kristen 46:14

Yeah.

Annmarie 46:14

so that you're using those neural pathways, that you're finding the new things you love, because the things you loved at... I don't want to do the things I did at 25. I, I don't, I don't even have the stamina to do what I did at 25

Kristen 46:24

Yeah.

Annmarie 46:25

or, or the, you know, physical constitution that the tequila had to go years ago.

Kristen 46:32

Yes.

Annmarie 46:32

Anyway. Okay, so this is kinda similar, but we're gonna send people off with some actionable advice. And so my last play date, the person that I interviewed last, admitted that she's not even sure what play looks like for her anymore

Kristen 46:46

Mm.

Annmarie 46:47

where she is. So if I made you, which I'm making you, come up with three low-cost, I could do this today ideas that someone could do to add some fun, play, creativity to their life, what suggestions might you have?

Kristen 47:01

Whoa. Okay. I mean, of course, the first one's gotta be reading,

Annmarie 47:07

Yes.

Kristen 47:08

like, go find a little free library. Find your library. Libraries are magic places. Even, like, the Libby app. The Libby app is a delight. I got Yesteryear, which is, like, bestseller. I, lucked into that, and it felt like I had won the lottery. Um, and it was

Annmarie 47:24

Love it.

Kristen 47:26

free to read. Pick something that you would never pick up. Like, that's really fun. Go to a bookstore and be like, "I've never read a horror novel." might love it, who knows? Um, that's tip one. Um, the second tip is, like, collage. I've

Annmarie 47:42

The

Kristen 47:46

this, I did have this memory of being a kid and making... Because I was obsessed with music, I made mixtapes, as one did. They were, like, actually on cassette tapes, and then I would collage the, little cassette liner. I don't remember what they were called. They were...

Annmarie 48:03

cases. Yeah, the outside cases. Yeah.

Kristen 48:06

I would collage it, and that's... I would, I would give it to people. A lot of my happiest memories were just, like, being quiet late at night by myself listening to music, 'cause I was making the mixtape, and making my little collage that was gonna be on there. You can collage anything. Find old magazines, get some glue or even some tape, and, put something together. I have a sign on my office door that tells people, like, when I'm I am on video or not. So, like, I collaged a sign for that. It's

Annmarie 48:35

Love it. Love it, love it, love it.

Kristen 48:38

I have a... I, I would say for the third one, like, do something physical you haven't done in a long time. And literally, Maybe laying on the floor is it. I just, cannot recommend it enough. Y- and you don't even have to do, like, Savasana, but just, like, down and feel, like, your back and your body, and, I don't know, challenge yourself. Like, you don't have to meditate. I don't have the patience to meditate, but, like, lay there for five minutes and just see what happens.

Annmarie 49:06

So I love all of those suggestions. As a former art materials store owner, you can go get a bottle of Mod Podge and a 99 cent brush, they still exist, and collage to your heart's content. One of the little things that we did in my store as a takeaway project was I went to a Home Depot or a Lowe's or whatever you have in your part of the country, and you can get plain white square tiles for almost no money. Print off your favorite photo from your color printer, and you can Mod Podge or, you know, collage that photo onto that tile And once you put another coating of that over s- you have a coaster.

Kristen 49:50

Fun.

Annmarie 49:51

yeah, you know what? And then it's personal, and it's fun, and you did something, and there is zero skill required. And it's all for a budget for less than $10. And so those kind of things are great. So

Kristen 50:03

Love it.

Annmarie 50:05

over your hour already, so I want to say thank you very much for being my play date. And I think for the record, this is the first time you've worked on something where I didn't send you a panicked email at some point. So progress for me.

Kristen 50:22

Good job.

Annmarie 50:23

Woo-hoo. And, if you're listening and you're a writer or someone who just loves to dissect books, Kristen's books are called... Are they all Novel Study? Like do they have that title?

Kristen 50:33

So yeah, there's just one out now, but there'll be a, a new one out this fall. So yeah, novel study, and my website is The Blue Garret, so you can find me there.

Annmarie 50:41

Perfect. I'll put the link in the show notes as well. And to everyone listening, if today reminded you of something that you have been putting off, some concert you haven't bought tickets to, some game you haven't played, I mean, I'm gonna play Bananagrams in a dive bar now. I will Or some afternoon you haven't claimed, I want you to take this as your sign to get on that. And until next time, I'm Ann Marie Boyle, and I wanted you to consider this your official permission slip to go play