Ep 6: Play Date with Dr. J (a.k.a. my husband)

You've heard a lot from me about reclaiming your right to play. But what does it look like from the other side — from the person in your corner who makes that space possible?

Today I'm welcoming my husband of 26-plus years, known around here as Dr. J, to his very first Play Date. Paul (as people call him IRL) is a professor, an eternally optimistic human, a lover of the outdoors, and the person who has quietly — and not so quietly — been one of the biggest reasons I've been able to keep creativity and play at the center of my life.

We talk about what it actually means to protect your partner's right to play, how to find the Venn diagram overlap where both of your cups get filled, and why play doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing, 78 RPM kind of commitment. (Sometimes 33 is exactly right.)

Paul also answers the question I've been dying to ask on mic: what does it look like when I haven't had enough play in my life? Spoiler: he's very kind about it. And I am... less kind about myself.

If you've ever wondered how to ask for more play in your relationship — or how to be the person who shows up for someone you love — this one's for you.

In this episode:

• Why Paul defines play as a feeling and attitude before it's ever an action
• How Lego, yarn arts, and five-gallon buckets of nostalgia are doing a lot of heavy lifting in our marriage
• The "kidney question" we use to de-escalate way-too-serious moments
• Why invitations (not demands) are the secret to protecting play in a partnership
• What to ask your partner if they can't easily access joy — and how to come at it from the side

Also in the episode, the link to grab The Wonder Project: www.annmarieboyle.com/thewonderproject

www.annmarieboyle.com

Music from Uppbeat (https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/to-the-top), License code BC9SEN3G6PMABOA

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to I Used to be Fun, the podcast about remembering who you were before life got so serious. I'm Annmarie Boyle, author, creativity instigator, and recovering overachiever. And each week, we explore how reconnecting to creativity and play helps us feel more alive, inspired, and like ourselves again. So set down the to-do list, grab a cup of coffee, and let's go find some fun

Annmarie 0:39

If you've been following my author life for any length of time, today's guest probably doesn't need much of an introduction. But he does sound a little different than my usual play date guests, a little more baritone. And no, not Andrew from Love Me Like a Love Song, Andrew is a bass, not a baritone. And, um, Andrew's also fictional. But sometimes that line between real and made up can get a little fuzzy in my author brain. So if it's not Andrew, then who is it? If you've seen my social media posts, then you know him as Dr. J. If you know him outside of that, you'll likely call him Paul. But either way, he's my husband of 26-plus years. for a girl who loves change, that is one long-term commitment. But I didn't ask him on the show to talk about maintaining a relationship with, you know, a change-loving creative like me. I asked him on the show because one of the things I talk about a lot on this podcast is reclaiming your right to play, and then how hard it can be to actually do that when life keeps handing you reasons to be serious and responsible instead. And what I've realized is that one of the biggest factors in whether I actually take that time and whether I actually let myself play is having someone in my corner who genuinely believes that play and creativity and joy and wonder actually matter. And Paul is that person for me. And I thought, "What if we talked about that, not just from my perspective, but from his?" What does it look like to be the partner who shows up so the other person can have space to play? how can partners or friends figure out how to play together? And how do we stop letting it quietly get crowded out by all the serious adulting we have to do? So today, we're talking about play as something that lives inside a partnership and how you can protect it, how you can encourage it in each other, and what it gives back to both of you when you do that, or that's the goal anyway. So Paul, welcome to I Used to Be Fun. Come on in. The water's fine, I promise.

Paul 3:03

You know I love me some good water, so, I'm dipping my toe in right now, and it is just a delight to be joining you in this enterprise versus, all the others that we share. Thanks for having me

Annmarie 3:15

Paul is a water scientist. If that joke didn't hit you in the right way, that is what he's talking about. And speaking of that, and before I put you to work, I want to give people a sense of who you are. Not the resume version or CV in your academic language, but just who is Paul when he's not being Dr. Jackson?

Paul 3:39

So who is Paul? He's a lover of all things, an inquisitive, curious human. And he loves the outdoors, loves being out and discovering, and on occasion will find himself, immersed in music, in theatrical expression and enjoying those things, and just all about having a grand time in whatever the moment presents

Annmarie 4:05

If you can't tell, eternally optimistic and happy, which drives the rest of us insane. Okay, just me. It's just me.

Paul 4:13

It's my gift.

Annmarie 4:15

It's your gift to me. So let's start with the question I ask everybody. I know we're gonna take this episode in a slightly different direction, but let's get that foundation underneath us, and tell me what play means to you. I mean, if someone asked you to define it, what would you say?

Paul 4:32

I love this question because I think for me, play is more of a feeling and an attitude first, and then the actions come out of that feeling or attitude. And it's that sort of habit of mind that allows me to be immersed in something for its own sake, not for any other kinds of motivations, but just simply present in that thing. And it is all then actions that relate to exploring, discovering, enjoying, learning, doing, imagining, and it's all that kind of immersive sense of just being

Annmarie 5:04

I love the idea of play as a mindset, I also like the idea of knowing what play looks like in actuality. So tell me, were you a playful kid?

Paul 5:17

Totally. Absolutely. And I think part of it is maybe some of my mother's frustration on having three boys all very, very close together, and so as a way to perhaps give herself some time and space for whatever that enterprise looked like for her, it was, "Boys, get out. Get out, go out to the back, play, go." And it was sort of a command in some way to give her respite, but in the same sense to open up space for us to discover, and I think that's what young Paul would say about play. It would be about discovering, and I can picture myself all sticky and full of pine sap because I'm climbing the pine trees as a young kid, and just getting a different vantage point to see and experience, and part of that is then being covered in sap that you have to try and remove later, which was a bit challenging. Or it's about being out back exploring a limestone outcrop when we lived in Vermont and making up stories of all the imagined and actual items that we found along and in that outcrop. Or it was bike riding and getting out and, and seeing and experiencing just the feeling of that wind moving through you, and then what could you see, again, from a slightly different vantage point. And if I flip to what this play looked like perhaps inside, rather than it just being all wholly outside, I vividly remember the day my parents brought two five-gallon pails of Lego into the house from my uncles who had decided that they didn't want to use it anymore, or maybe it was a generous convincing of my parents to my uncles that they didn't wanna use it anymore and that their three boys would be over the moon to play and build and construct. And I love thinking about that or the board games that we played as kids or cooking and baking all had a sense of play for me so that was a lot, to cover

Annmarie 7:18

And my brain short-circuited as it always does when I think about your young mother having three boys in three years. My brain just, it just stopped.

Paul 7:26

For good reason. We were a handful

Annmarie 7:29

Before I move on to my next question Your mother sent you boys out to play

Paul 7:37

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 7:38

own rest and her own need to get probably other things done, quite frankly. But there felt like there was something in there that there might have been a value statement about what your parents thought about

Paul 7:49

Hmm. So

Annmarie 7:50

feel that way?

Paul 7:51

I think so. I think there, there was a sense that they want their children to explore something that is unguided and indeterminate, and I think play can be guided, but I love that it's indeterminate. It's what you get to create in that moment, in that time, and I think that does a lot for us as human beings to sort of think about how we make sense of the world around us through play. And I think a lot of education and a lot of sort of cultural exchange is built around sort of staged or crafted or intentionally designed experience. But there is an element of the undesigned and of just the evolving that can be really powerful in the way you see yourself and the way you see the world around you that I don't think can be replicated other ways.

Annmarie 8:46

Yeah, I've spoken a lot about how children learn through play. That is one of the primary ways that kids learn, and that's what you're talking about, is that piece of not having a script in front of you and figuring things out through play. And that leads really nicely into my next question, because I think there's this thing that happens when you become a serious adult, capital letters, and also when you become, a serious adult couple, play sort of quietly gets phased out. We've been told that play is only for kids. If you think about our relationship, are there points in our relationship where things started to feel more like logistics than just living life?

Paul 9:31

I think there has been, and it sort of ebbed and flowed. We've kept some aspect of play, I think, all through it. But there are moments that I think that feel like there were more constraints on us, at different times, and I sort of think about professionally in our, different job pathways, that there are some constraints that get put on, or we allow the constraints that get put on is probably a better way to say it. Or thinking about, oh, what does the house need anytime we're in it or around it, and thinking about, oh, is it time for this regular maintenance, or is it this project needs attending to now, and maybe we're feeling tired at the end of the day, and, ugh, just wanna veg rather than do something else. But I also think about the 17 years that we had with dogs, our lovely little Boston Terriers. And when you said, does play get phased out? And maybe I'm overthinking this, or maybe I'm underthinking it, but I'm like, maybe the dogs actually helped us maintain that play because they're living in the moment. They inserted themselves into our lives, or we invited them in to our lives. And when we were feeling tired they still needed to get out, and were off their own energies, and sometimes that was contagious, whether it was playing with them in the house or out in the yard and watching them just have zoomies for a moment. And I think about, oh, is that how sort of our play got funneled into something else? And yeah, we were taking care of our dogs but we were also enjoying those moments with them, and maybe that was just a reframing of play

Annmarie 11:13

as I've mentioned in previous episodes, Paul and I don't have children, and that both allows us freedom, but it also give us an excuse to play. Your mom sent you outside, so she had time to rest and had a million other things to do, I'm sure. But there were times, I'm guessing also, particularly maybe for your father, that having those children gave him reason to play, to take you on a bike

Paul 11:39

Oh, for sure

Annmarie 11:40

toss a football around, to do those things. And so we use the dogs, for sure, as our reminder. But one of the things I'm hoping to come out of this is that we pull out the kids, we pull out the dogs, we pull out the grandkids, and figure out what play looks like just for us. And so let's talk a little bit about what play looks like for you and I as a couple, things that we can do where we can meet that will fill both of our cups.

Paul 12:09

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 12:10

What do you think that looks like?

Paul 12:11

I think it takes a variety of forms because of just the things that we're interested in. And I think for the two of us, it's an exchange between what you're interested in, what I'm interested in and that the other sees value in that. One of those might be we both love Lego. But yet that love is emerging and expressing itself in different ways. Yes, we're doing it together. We're sitting down, and we're imaginatively building or following a set of instructions to build something collaboratively, which is just grand. But I'm, having this nostalgic flashback, I think, to childhood and just constructing and just the tangible feel of a brick in my hand. Tell me what you feel, in that moment

Annmarie 13:00

Yeah, we do come at it from different places, and you and I have actually discussed this a little bit before, is for you, it's the building, it's the nostalgia, and I didn't have Legos as a kid. The first time that I played with Legos, we were actually living in Denmark on one of your sabbaticals, it was 2020, and we all know what happened in 2020. We had planned a trip up to Billund to where the Lego headquarters are, and that trip got canceled because everything shut down because of COVID. But we did have the foresight to run down to the shopping street in Copenhagen and buy a set of Lego. It happened to be a bookstore, which, you know, speaks to me, and we had that then to do when there wasn't much else to do during COVID while we were in this foreign country where frankly, we didn't even get to know very many people because social things weren't happening And playing Lego reminded me of something that was probably my favorite thing to do as a child, which was long past the age of... Well, maybe this is part of the conditioning, but I was gonna say long past the age of playing with blocks. I would pull those blocks out. I would go to my mom's top drawer in her dresser and pull out all the hankies, and those would become my carpets, and I would build, rooms around them, and then I would take out my Fisher-Price toys that had couches and beds, and I would create rooms. I would decorate, which is still, you know, one of my great loves. But that's what Lego does for me as well, is I just am so blown away. We usually build the modular houses from the kits, and I'm so blown away by what those Lego designers are thinking to put inside the houses. And so that's a long way of saying that you're coming at it from this building aspect and this creation aspect, and I'm coming at it from this decorating aspect, but yet it fills both of our cups, which I think is a really strong lesson when you're trying to find play that works for you as a couple or as a partnership or with your BFF, is where is that, I don't know, center of that Venn diagram, let's say. Like, I love decorating. You love the concept of building. You love this nostalgia of remembering those five-gallon buckets as a kid. Where does that meet? And, now, with that in mind, what else can you say for somebody who might be listening that wants more play with their partner on finding the places where that Venn diagram intersects?

Paul 15:43

Yeah, I think part of it is knowing or recognizing what interests your partner has and thinking about how you might enter into some of that space. I know you just mentioned your love of interior design. You have an exquisite sense of color. Fabrics are super important to you. So as I sort of think about where I might enter into that could be around textiles and yaw- yarn arts. Yaw... I almost said yawn art, so that was weird. Um,

Annmarie 16:16

Freudian slip

Paul 16:17

right. So we have these yarn arts and thinking about, oh, as a, as a kid, I also did some crochet and latch hook. Oh my God, I'm dating myself. Um, but I'm thinking of... Right? But I'm thinking about that, just that tactile building in a very different way, using another medium and saying, "Oh, I could get into doing some of that again, and that actually sounds like some fun. Maybe we might do this." And I'm thinking of the Woobles, perhaps the Wooble kits that we have right now waiting for our opportunity together And thinking about what does my partner really enjoy and how might I see myself in that or even closely adjacent to it

Annmarie 16:57

I think that's great, and I try and think about it from the other direction as well. I know music is a big part of your life. Paul's an excellent singer. He plays the piano, he plays the organ, he played the trumpet at one point. And live music is something that he loves. It's very relaxing for

Paul 17:13

Hmm. True.

Annmarie 17:14

sensory issues, and

Paul 17:15

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 17:16

I have to be careful with the volume. But if you go back to my play date episode with Kristen, she taught me a few things that I could do to help with that sensory issue so that I can show up for you in a place that you love. it's just that constant curiosity about what your partner is interested in, and then what about it could be fun for each of you? What about it feels like play for each of you? And I think it's really interesting. I've noticed there's this thread of nostalgia running through everything we've talked about, whether it's Legos, and for you, that's being a kid. For me, even, you know, 2020 was six years ago, so

Paul 17:57

Totally true

Annmarie 17:58

there for me and being in Copenhagen and that connection to where Lego was created. But talking about playing with the blocks, or you told me a long time ago that, I don't know, remember if it was your mother or your grandmother now, that taught you how to crochet. And is there a way to bring some of that back? It's almost hearkening back to a simpler time, and it lets your mind sink into a place that maybe wasn't as stress-filled. Do you agree?

Paul 18:28

I think so, and I might not say a simpler time, but maybe a less electronically stimulated time,

Annmarie 18:35

sure

Paul 18:36

right, where we're actually dealing with tangible physical objects and not a joystick or a mouse or an infinite scroll loop, um, where we actually have something tangible we see and feel in our hands, and that feedback, in that space harkens back to maybe some earlier kinds of play. And now maybe this will be generationally interesting or an artifact that some folks might watch move forward through time, but I think there's something to be gained in actually the physical manipulation of something, It Gets you out of just the brain and connects the brain and body together

Annmarie 19:16

Yeah, neurologically, we know that there's a big difference between what I'm gonna call analog play and digital play,

Paul 19:22

Yeah

Annmarie 19:22

both have value. But I do think in our current environment, for many of us, we could lean into that analog

Paul 19:31

Hmm.

Annmarie 19:31

a little bit more. One of my close friends has started That's English paper piecing. It's a type of quilting, and she started it to scroll less, to do something with her hands. And I joke once in a while that she rage quilts, like, but it has become a thing that has not only kept her off her phone, her something else to do, it's connected her to other people. she will quilt with others. It is something that maybe starting as a way of putting down your phone has developed into something much deeper

Paul 20:11

Hmm

Annmarie 20:12

richer, and that's something I feel like we can lean into, which kind of leads into the next question. I wanna know from your perspective, and, you know, you can be totally honest,

Paul 20:22

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 20:24

what does it look like when I haven't had enough play in my life? then flip it around and tell me what changes about you when you haven't had enough play in your life

Paul 20:36

Oh, cool. Let's start with me, and then I'll flip to you. So when I don't have enough play in my life, I think I get too serious about everything. So

Annmarie 20:46

Yes

Paul 20:46

There's a intensity of seriousness that happens. And it probably makes me also more grouchy or irritable, if I'm being honest, that if it, that sort of seriousness then needs a break. And before I get to that break, I probably can be, more sensitive to things than I wouldn't be, and maybe life feels really heavy. And what changes about me when then I get some aspect to play, everything lightens. And I don't wanna say the serious subjects go away, 'cause that's not true. The serious subjects are there, they're just not pressing in as hard anymore because I have allowed myself to refill in some sort of way, shape, or form, through that aspect of play or through that aspect of creating, without an agenda. And I think that's the critical part, is the a- the agenda is it's just to do whatever it was, to, to embrace that mindset and idea of, "Oh, I don't have an outcome. I'm just gonna wander through and see where I go." And that's very freeing

Annmarie 21:54

I wanna just add in that Paul is very rarely crabby or in a bad mood. Again, we can hate him for that. It's okay. However, I will agree that when you haven't played, when you haven't let loose, when you haven't let down, whatever words we wanna use, you become very... The, the words that keep coming to my mind is wrapped tight,

Paul 22:15

Hmm.

Annmarie 22:15

and deadlines become almost more serious. It's kind of an odd phenomenon, but I think if we all look at ourselves for a moment here, when we haven't allowed space, whatever that space looks like for us, it is hard to not take things more seriously, it's a joke we've had since the beginning of our marriage. Paul is very serious about his job. He loves it, right? But he takes

Paul 22:43

Sure.

Annmarie 22:43

seriously, and so I would say to him, "Are you giving anybody a new kidney today?" And he would say, "No." And I'm like, "Then it's okay. You know, go and wing it. You can do this." Those are the pieces that I think play brings to your life, is you don't get to that place where I have to ask you, "Are you giving anybody a new kidney today?" Like, this is not life-threatening. And so I think that's really important, and a really important thing we can all look at is, would life be a lot more enjoyable if we gave ourselves that space? I interrupted.

Paul 23:19

No, this is perfect because it allowed me to frame it about, you know, what does it look like when you haven't played enough

Annmarie 23:26

I do get crabby.

Paul 23:27

I totally do. And you totally do.

Annmarie 23:28

human

Paul 23:30

And it's sort of like, the weight of life is clinging to you in ways that feel like your momentum has slowed. The way that you're moving through is just like walking through sticky syrup, is, probably a great way to sort of say that, that everything just feels so much harder, to do and to approach and to, and to deal with. And when you start to play again, I see that lift. I see things that move more easily, that become more, I like to say more fluid, in a really great way. And you start to have that little sparkle in your eye again, and I love seeing that captured in there

Annmarie 24:13

Nothing is better for me than laughter. I like to make people laugh. I love to laugh. And so when you're talking, I'm thinking everything you're saying is accurate, and I think it's accurate for a lot of people, it's not just me, is that it's this slogging you're

Paul 24:31

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 24:33

The piece we can take from that are two things. The first thing that came to my mind was start noticing how long it's been since you laughed.

Paul 24:41

Mm-hmm, true

Annmarie 24:42

And, you know, if you have to write it down, write it down. Like, when is the last time you laughed? And not just a small little titter, like that deep belly laugh that changes your biochemistry

Paul 24:55

mm-hmm.

Annmarie 24:56

when things start to feel really hard, instead of thinking, "Why is this so stressful?" Maybe we flip the question to, "How can I walk away from that stress for a few minutes? How can I play? How can I do something creative?"

Paul 25:14

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 25:14

We, we talk a lot about seeing the wonder in life or practicing gratitude, and sometimes that feels like too much of a slog too. But walking away for a few minutes or if you're lucky enough, half a day, a weekend, whatever it may be, and just playing noticing what it does, what it changes in your mind, in your heart, in your soul, So thanks for like making me aware of that in that way. Like I know I do it, but to be able to go, "Okay, we're gonna take a step back and go, 'Okay, maybe this really isn't as hard as I think it is. Maybe I just haven't played for a while.'" And that is so much easier than thinking about unknotting the hardness. a terrible mixed metaphor, but I think you get it.

Paul 26:02

Unknotting all the threads and ropes that feel like they're inside you? Yes.

Annmarie 26:07

know, the

Paul 26:08

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 26:08

tabs that are open in my brain that all of a sudden have, like, started to meld together in that goo. So that actually leads to another thing I wanted to chat about is if this is so important, if

Paul 26:22

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 26:22

important to reduce our stress level, to increase our health, to our marriage easier, how do we protect

Paul 26:31

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 26:32

each other's right to

Paul 26:33

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 26:33

but also make time for us to play together?

Paul 26:38

Yeah

Annmarie 26:39

me your advice, Dr. Jackson

Paul 26:41

I think first might be just recognizing what play does and the need for it, and to be able to have those conversations with each other, and then to make invitations. Invitations to play in some way, shape, or form, whether that is getting out a little project that you're doing together, or just saying to my partner, "Oh, you know, we haven't done this in a while. What do you think about doing that now or doing something like it?" And being free with those invitations and recognizing that they are an invitation, that it can be a yes or no because I don't know what's going on in your head and you might not know what's going on in your partner's head. So true. We could talk about that for a, a long time and it would be a very enlightening conversation, I am sure. But sometimes we forget that we actually have to get what's in our head out to our partner. And I am guilty of going, "Well, why don't you just mind read what I've got?" And I'm like, "Yeah, we're not there yet." And I actually shudder to think about the time where it could be. I would rather us invite each other to consider play as part of our, daily kind of being. And I think that's what I would just say is issue invitations and be okay with saying, "Oh, not right now. I'm just not in the place where, where this can work for me, but I don't want you to stop inviting."

Annmarie 28:13

I think invitations are great. I would also say for anybody listening that might have a little bit of a personality like me or, you know, I've dealt with chronic health conditions for 35 years, and you will make an invitation to me, and my first response is often, leave me alone. But the thing is that you're good at is understanding that I also need a little push,

Paul 28:39

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 28:40

right? I think you're getting really good at knowing when I need that push and when I really don't. Your invitation to me sometimes has to be multi-layered. Like it mi- have to be, here's the invitation, and maybe a little while later, here's the invitation again, because it gets really easy to get stuck in inertia for a lot of us or to feel fatigued and not realize that that play invitation is actually gonna help alleviate the fatigue. That's one thing I have to remember is it could make it better or to know where the line is of like, this isn't gonna make it better. So today I'm gonna have to say no

Paul 29:28

That has also brought up that play doesn't have to be a binary on and off, that you either have to be all in or you're all out. That there can be small pieces of play. That it doesn't have to be big chunky bits, right? That it can just be a little bit and that maybe it's, I'm up to playing at kind of like a 33% level, or I'm thinking about old school LPs and yeah, what, am I at a 33 RPM or I'm at a 78 today? And what am I wanting to do? And just even that little bit of 33 can be a good thing, and that it's okay

Annmarie 30:09

And I think understanding that I usually run at 33 and you usually run at 78,

Paul 30:14

True.

Annmarie 30:17

not letting that be a judgment

Paul 30:21

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 30:23

I think I spent a big portion of the first part of our marriage feeling a little bit like that was judgment, not from you. But I grew up with, my mother has an energy level like you do, and I grew up with that Energizer Bunny

Paul 30:37

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 30:38

level, and then I married the Energizer Bunny. It took a long time for me to realize it was okay to say no, and it was also okay to say, you to meet me at my speed today." And then also to say, "Hey, can you push me to your speed?" Which is where I was on the last point. But that's just self-acceptance and trusting that your partner cares about you enough a no isn't a judgment. It isn't telling that person their idea isn't a good idea. It's just, "I can't do that, but here's what I can do." So maybe that's what we're gonna pull out of this is instead of just saying no to w- the invitations you're talking about, is saying, "I can't take an hour walk, but what if we did 20 minutes? can't play pickleball at 3:00 in the afternoon because it's too much sun, but what if we thought about getting up and going tomorrow before we had breakfast?" You know, I know to some people that probably sounds terrible. But those are the compromises, right? Like,

Paul 31:41

For sure

Annmarie 31:41

a way to find that play in your life if you're willing to have the conversation

Paul 31:47

Yeah. Conversations see the opportunity, and I think you're right on with making it a judgment-free space. And as how you enter it is judgment-free. When you're in it, it's judgment-free. As you leave it, it's judgment-free. Super hard, I think, to do in the way we are culturally primed for moving through the world sometimes. But if you can think about it as feeding your vitality, I think that would frame it differently

Annmarie 32:16

So as a partner who does support his partner, maybe there's somebody listening right now who wants to be able to have this conversation with their partner and ask for that support, ask for that judgment-free zone, ask for ways to that person with things that they love, but they don't know quite how to ask. What would you tell them?

Paul 32:47

I would say three things. First, simply be curious about your partner. You likely already are, and maybe you just haven't expressed it in some sort of more direct, clear way. And through that curiosity, that also allows you to be present and listening, and listen deeply. So those are kind of the three pieces that package together. But I think if you lead with that curiosity, it will go a long way. And here's what I mean. I could ask you right now, tell me about a time where you felt some sort of immense joy or at a time where you feel like your energy level or your cup got refilled. What did that look like for you? How did it feel? And all of a sudden, I'm centering you in this conversation. I'm asking about a moment for you to share, and I'm asking something about how did that moment support you in some way, shape, or form through either joy or refilling your energy or something else. And I think that opens up space for us to then think about what then might come out of it or respond to what might come out of it. What do you think?

Annmarie 34:03

I think that's great. I think they're great tips, and the piece that I'm going to add is that I've dealt with some depression and anxiety on and off throughout my whole life, sometimes when you say what brings you joy, that's really hard for me to access.

Paul 34:18

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 34:18

But I can access the last time I laughed. I can access the last time I didn't feel stressed. So sometimes, as we joke, this is another thing I say to Paul all the time, Paul works in environmental education, and so sometimes talking about the environment is a subject that can be unfortunately a little tenuous, so I always say to him, "How can you come in from the side?" And I'm gonna use that exact language here. So if your partner is somebody who maybe isn't great at accessing joy or accessing those positive emotions, how can you come at it from the side? And maybe that side is when's the last time you didn't feel the negative emotion? I mean, I'd love if we could all come at this from the positive emotion, but some days that doesn't work for me. And so if you said to me, "Annmarie, when's the last time you laughed?" I can think about that. "Annmarie, when is the last time that you didn't worry about X?" Whatever it may be that I am banging on about. "When's the last time you didn't worry about book sales?" I'm like, "Never. 2017, before I published books." No, but I can think about the moments that I was so consumed with something that we were doing. Oftentimes it's physical activity, s- it's oftentimes Lego, or it's something that requires... Like sewing for me requires a lot of mental capacity. I gotta think about how I'm gonna put the pieces together. I'm gonna think about how the pattern's gonna meet. I'm gonna think about what other colors need to go with it. I don't have space to like that I'll never sell another book. And I can get to it that way. So either way you ask the question, it's first of all, it's about knowing your partner again. We're just gonna come back to that thread over

Paul 36:06

Yeah

Annmarie 36:06

again. But being curious about how your partner moves through the world will give you an answer to this. So if that person is somebody that has easy access to joy, ask that question. If that person is somebody who doesn't have easy access to that, use some of these other questions.

Paul 36:23

Yeah, and, it made me sort of think about, my own parents and my mother's love of gardening and how that was sort of passed down to me, and what is it about digging in the dirt that just makes you feel good in the midst of the mosquitoes, and the sun, and the heat, and the humidity? And there, there's something tangible. I know you're shaking your head, which is lovely, because this is not your fuel.

Annmarie 36:53

Nope

Paul 36:53

but yet your husband could be covered in dirt and probably really feel a lot of joy. And you know that about him, and yet at the same time, you can say, "Paul, what is it about touching the dirt, touching the soil, that just brings you some sort of energy?" And I might say, "Yeah, it just reminds me of being connected to the Earth." And also, have a moment of nostalgia of growing plants in the garden and maybe this is, and maybe for many of the gardeners out there, it's the planting of the seed with the hope that something grows. And I think play has a lot of hope embedded in it.

Annmarie 37:31

does

Paul 37:31

And because it's hope that is undefined as it emerges, and I think that is also kind of a cool thing that these conversations can bring up to discover about your partner and maybe discover about what are those things inside me that feel that same sort of way?

Annmarie 37:48

I love that. I wrote down while you were talking, getting joy by talking about joy.

Paul 37:53

Yeah

Annmarie 37:54

And sometimes we just need the reminder that there were things that we did enjoy, that we did love. My first play date episode with Kim Turcott she talked about how she loved to roller skate, and nieces, who are adults now, bought her a pair of roller skates, but she hadn't gotten them out of the box.

Paul 38:14

Mm.

Annmarie 38:14

I think that the... We joked a little bit about the older you get, you're like, "Am I gonna break a hip?"

Paul 38:18

Well, there's, there's that.

Annmarie 38:20

But if you can talk about the joy, if you can really think back, like me building those houses with the blocks and the

Paul 38:26

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 38:27

and the Fisher-Price furniture, my mood is already lifted. So it doesn't even have to be action sometimes.

Paul 38:37

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 38:37

memory can

Paul 38:38

Yeah

Annmarie 38:38

memory of play and freedom of, you know,

Paul 38:42

Yeah

Annmarie 38:42

that play gives us can take us there.

Paul 38:44

I love that you bring up memory, as another way to access this, and I think that could be another good point to that curiosity for a partner is to say, "Oh, tell me about a memory that you have that made you feel lighter or that made you bring a smile to your face or that just somehow showed something inside you that percolated to the surface." And I think those are super cool pieces to just invite others to share

Annmarie 39:11

Yeah, and dig deep. When you locate that memory, who were you with?

Paul 39:17

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 39:18

you? Were you playing in the dirt? It was... No. was not playing

Paul 39:22

You were not?

Annmarie 39:23

I was not playing in the dirt. I was not going anywhere there were near bugs. It's, it's not the dirt I don't like, it's the bugs.

Paul 39:30

Yeah.

Annmarie 39:31

Ask Were, were you by yourself?

Paul 39:33

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 39:33

Were you in a large group of people that made you feel supported but you weren't really talking to anybody, say, at a concert? you in a movie theater? You know, figure out where those came from and that way you know, like, oh, maybe it's the fact that I haven't connected with anybody for a

Paul 39:49

Hmm.

Annmarie 39:50

Maybe I need to call my girlfriends up and we all need to meet for a cup of coffee.

Paul 39:54

Mm-hmm

Annmarie 39:55

that's what's missing, right? Or maybe it is the solitary type of play. Okay, last question I wanna know what it's meant for you, to be in a relationship where play is something we take seriously

Paul 40:11

Being in a relationship with play helps me feel connected. I think it's that notion of connectedness that helps all of us, in some way, shape, or form, deal with the mundane, deal with the heavy. But also, on the flip side, enables us to celebrate with each other and enables us to express all the good things that are happening. And I think that connectivity is something that, I've really thought about with respect to the two of us because that feeling of connect-connectivity also allows me to do solo things. That I am connected and supported, but that doesn't mean that I have to be with you all the time or with others all the time. I can be out on my own, but I still have that feeling of connection. So I think this play space, allows me to be the best me possible. And maybe I would invite others to think about how being connected through play allows you to be the best you possible, or maybe allows you to tap into that.

Annmarie 41:19

And the connection you're speaking of is the connection between you and me or you and another

Paul 41:23

Yeah.

Annmarie 41:24

connected to the earth or

Paul 41:25

Correct.

Annmarie 41:26

to... Okay

Paul 41:27

Yeah, yeah. So the environmentalist in me goes, "Oh, of course it'll be connected to the Earth." Uh, yes, totally true. Another kind of relationship. Um, but think about play as relational. Relational to yourself and relational to others, and even, uh, even space and time around you. Okay, that's a little heady and probably academic-y

Annmarie 41:48

think so actually. I like the idea of if you're connected to another human in play it's a very different experience than being connected to that person because you're sitting on the same committee at work

Paul 42:00

True, true

Annmarie 42:01

Thinking about our connection to other people and thinking about that connection through play, that seems like a whole lot more fun to me than the connection through let's just go hang out and have a beer and talk about that PowerPoint presentation we need to give.

Paul 42:17

True

Annmarie 42:18

and you know, those things have to happen too, but I do think that there's something in there about really thinking about who you're connected to and why you're connected to them, and, and does that connection either offer you a safe space, which is what

Paul 42:30

Mm-hmm.

Annmarie 42:30

about, to then go out and do other things? that connection lift your spirits? Does it give you new ideas? Does it make you fresher in everything else you do? I could go on and on about

Paul 42:42

Yeah

Annmarie 42:42

how I feel about connection. I think it's as as vital as play. So bringing them together, it.

Paul 42:50

Love it

Annmarie 42:51

So do you have anything else you would like to add before we leave? Any final words of wisdom?

Paul 42:57

Final words of wisdom? I think you can do a lot by being curious and not having an agenda. And I think if you follow that curiosity into play, it will serve you really well

Annmarie 43:12

And if you need an agenda, if that's the kind of person you are, you can, you can make a spreadsheet about play too.

Paul 43:18

Totally you can

Annmarie 43:21

I love spreadsheets. I make 'em all the time. I, but I never follow the plan. I just have to make the spreadsheet. So I'm not gonna put down anybody who needs an agenda or a spreadsheet. So, so thank you. Thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to have this conversation with me. And I hope that whether your person is a spouse like Paul is to me, or a partner, or even your BFF, I hope that something in this conversation you permission to play a little bit more, and maybe gave the people who love you a little language for how to show up for that as well. And if you're still looking for a place to get started or how to develop that common language, I invite you to go over my website and grab The Wonder Project. four weeks, in your inbox. It's got some cute little printable permission slips, just like the one you used to fake your mom's signature on, some playful creative prompts, it will just help you reacquaint yourself with your playful spirit, and you can get that, as I mentioned, over at annmarieboyle.com/thewonderproject. And if this episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend or maybe your sister or your mom, absolutely don't forget to subscribe or follow the show. I'm gonna end this how I always do, encouraging you to go play, and I'll see you in a week