There Will Be Dancing
Courage, care, and climate leadership worth dancing for.
There Will Be Dancing is a podcast from Women’s Environmental Leadership Australia (WELA), amplifying the voices and leadership of women and gender-diverse changemakers working for our climate and environment.
Taking its name from the idea that movements for change must leave room for joy, the podcast weaves together personal stories, creative contributions, and thoughtful conversations to show that leadership can be hopeful, collaborative, and deeply human.
Across each episode, you’ll hear from experienced leaders and emerging voices challenging outdated norms and creating new pathways for climate and environmental action.
There Will Be Dancing
Caring for Country with Sarah Eccles
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What would it take to truly protect Country, not just in words, but in law? And what might change if we learned to listen to the oldest knowledge systems on this continent?
In this episode of There Will Be Dancing, Victoria, Odette and Sanaya catch up with special guest Sarah Eccles: co-CEO of the Wadawurrung Traditional Owners Aboriginal Corporation (WTOAC) and a leader whose work sits at the intersection of culture, Country, and climate.
As co-CEO, Sarah helps steward a growing organisation that speaks for Wadawurrung Country, stretching across the Geelong, Ballarat, and Werribee regions of Victoria.
Together, they explore what it means to care for Country in a time of climate crisis, how First Nations leadership is reshaping environmental decision-making in Australia (and who may not be happy about that) and why protecting Country isn't a separate conversation from protecting everything else we love. Sarah also shares what co-leadership looks like in practice, and why holding space for both cultural knowledge and contemporary governance is so important.
This episode also features a contribution from First Nations leader Ruth Langford: a powerful reflection on the protection of Country in law,and what it will take for our legal and political systems to recognise Country as kin, not resource.
We hope this conversation leaves you feeling challenged, hopeful, and more deeply connected to the Country beneath your feet — wherever in the world you are listening from.
Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn. Learn more about the Wadawurrung Traditional Owners Aboriginal Corporation at wadawurrung.org.au
Connect with Ruth Langford on Instagram
You can learn more about Victoria’s formal Treaty process at firstpeoplesvic.org/treaty/
Our Hosts:
- Victoria McKenzie-McHarg (CEO, WELA) - A strategic leader with decades of experience in climate and environmental advocacy.
- Odette Barry (Founder, Odette & Co) - A storyteller and PR expert teaching changemakers how to tell their story.
- Sanaya Khisty (Head of Strategy and Government Relations, 5B) - A policy and advocacy leader working in clean tech on climate solutions.
Follow us on socials (@therewillbedancingpod)
Want to learn more about WELA? Visit wela.org.au and find us on Instagram | LinkedIn | Facebook
This episode is proudly supported by Women's Agenda, helping to amplify essential conversations at the intersection of environment, gender, and leadership.
Welcome to There Will Be Dancing, a podcast that amplifies the voices of women and gender-diverse change makers protecting our environment and climate. I'm your host, Victoria Mackenzie McCart, and I'm joined by co-hosts Adeb Barry and Samatica. Early 20th century political activist Emma Goldman once said, If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution. And we use this to remind ourselves and you, our dear listener, that embracing joy amidst the turbulence of change making takes real courage and commitment. So let's listen to the function. We acknowledge and have respect to the traditional custodians and storytellers of these lands. This podcast is by Women's Environmental Leadership Australia. And thanks to Women's Agenda for supporting these essential conversations about the environment, gender, and leadership. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of There Will Be Dancing. I'm your host, Victoria Mackenzie McCog, and it's great to be back here with Odette and Saniaya. Hi, how are you?
SPEAKER_02Hi. I'm I'm actually not well. I've been sick for a million years because my child is in childcare, and that's just what happens apparently.
SPEAKER_04I was wondering how you were gonna respond to that and whether you were gonna be like, oh, so good, thanks.
SPEAKER_02No, so I'll be um I'll be muting myself between coughs.
SPEAKER_03So no fun for you on the weekend then.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, no, not at all.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Proof. Coughing on cue. Well done. What about you, Adette?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I feel like I'm much more healthful and radiant than our dear friends and I are. I am very happy to be down in Melbourne to check out Australian progress and um yeah, see some lovely humans. Yeah, it's gonna be a packed week. It's the agenda looks fantastic. It certainly does. I'm very excited. And Vic, tell us about your glorious weekend.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I did have a pretty fabulous weekend. We had both the Weller 10-year anniversary party last week, which was epic and gorgeous, and what a wonderful celebration of community. And then um finished off with over the weekend, I went and saw the latest Bangara uh performance of Flora that was in partnership with the Australian ballet. And what a beautiful representation of two different approaches to dance form. Um, this indigenous dance, contemporary dance company with a traditional ballet company, um exploring colonization, exploring nature. There was this phenomenal dance um of yams, which like just this way of connecting into nature and ecosystems, and yeah, I just loved it. It was perfect.
SPEAKER_05I I feel like um your enthusiasm for ballet in the shadow of Timothy Chameley scorning opera and ballet, um giving him giving him the big finger.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, choose your sides, friends, Timmy or me. I'm on your side, Mick. And what's on your mind this week? What's been going on in your worlds?
SPEAKER_05Well, I've actually been looking forward to getting together with you three, you two, um, to just pick your brain, particularly you, Sanaya. Um, you know, this is a question that's been like kicking off in my brain for many years, um, as I've seen different organizations achieve B Corp status. But having just seen on LinkedIn in this week that the iconic has achieved B Corp status, I'm keen to understand what this means because I find it very challenging to accept.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I it's been a very long time since I'm working for B Lab room, so I'll start with that caveat. And the standards have actually changed since then because they the standards evolve and get harder every three or so years. Um, but the founders, I think, had a very clever intent that they should not blanket ban industries because the idea was that every company can be better. And because they've got a wide range of impact areas, um, you can score really highly on one and not so highly on another, but you can still meet the threshold. Um, and the threshold is a very high bar. So when I was working for B Lab, um I think the the mid the average company would get a score of 50, and the B, you had to get 80 or 85 to become a B Corp. Um, so it is really difficult, and lots of companies will go through that process for quite a long period of time to keep improving, working with their standards assessor to improve each part of their business. So the answer is I haven't looked at their scores specifically, but I would imagine they've done really well in some areas and they've probably got plans to improve on others. But there is no blanket man on industries. Um, and that's why lots of different types of companies can become B Corps.
SPEAKER_03And so, Adette, your concern is this is a fast fashion company, is that right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. And I I feel like I've seen this over the years on multiple occasions and understood the concept of you can perform quite highly in one area and that can sort of balance the scales. But for how long is that acceptable? For how long can um we tolerate that yes, you've got like a very good thing happening over here, but then absolutely terrible things happening on the other side of your organization? Like it I find it to me, as someone who's very B Corp enthusiast, and I I like to think of myself as someone who acts as a B Corp without the certifications, um, as such a small operator, but it it just dilutes the potency of that B Corp brand and and what that kind of I know the rigor and I know how much work people um put into that um process. I I look at that and I just it it does nothing positive for me. And I feel really worried about what that does in the market.
SPEAKER_02Well, I would put it to a different way, which is what is the end goal for companies like that? Do we want companies like that to get better? Because they're not gonna go away.
SPEAKER_06I mean, are we talking about imperfect solutions or more um brutalist approaches that I might perhaps be inclined towards?
SPEAKER_02It's open to the question, it's open to you.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think there's something interesting here about like systems change as well. Like maybe there are fundamentally business models that are incompatible with life on earth. And we might have to just get okay with that and say there is no good version of that. Yeah. Or on the pathway to that uh companies improving is a positive thing. But where does a where does an entity or a um certifier like B Corp want to sit on that spectrum?
SPEAKER_02Well, I would argue that a certifier like a B Lab or any other kind of certification can't do anything to influence their community if they don't have the community. So to get the company in the door, and then it's a very B Lab message-y. No, but like again, haven't worked for them for like six years or more. Um, but again, like I was, I will say I was a bit skeptical before I started working there. And once I was working there, I could see how difficult it was to hit that bar. But I could also say like the fact that the standards change every three years means you have to keep pushing companies further and you have an ability to change how they're doing their businesses in doing that, so it's not like you hit it once and you're a B Corp for life. You have to keep pushing, and if you don't, you will no longer be a B Corp. And that is a pretty hard hit to a brand like that. Oh, we were a B Corp and today we're not because we couldn't meet the standards. So I I personally think that getting them in is a good thing. At the time that I was working at B Lab, there were no bans on industries, and the theory behind that was we want companies to get better, so we want to push them to get better, and we recognize like it's not a singular sort of sustainability-focused certification. It cuts across a variety of areas of business.
SPEAKER_03But we think maybe now it's some banned are banned sectors, so it's interesting which sectors are getting banned and which ones like fast fashion are still in the mix. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that we should get someone for B Lab to come and chat about.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, I think that's a conversation that so many people across the entrepreneurship community that I'm connected with would be very curious to listen to.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let's do it. Doing business better. So for today's episode, we're mixing up the order a little bit, and our community contribution piece, which familiar listeners will know is always a part of our podcast, is coming right up front. So we're gonna start with a contribution from a community member, Ruth Langford, the First Nations leader living on Palawa country in Lutrawita, Tasmania. Ruth's a facilitator, a songwoman, a storyteller, activist, and the founder of Neriniara. And her piece today is about the protection of law in country.
SPEAKER_01I firstly want to pay my respects to all my elders, but particularly Uncle Jimmy Everb, really a meaning matter, who has taught me and called me forth to understand law in country. All of us have a very distinct understanding that we are country and country is us. And that the very law that informs and forms us is within the living life force of country. And country is not only the land, but also all the water, the airs, and that which is seen and unseen. For me, this protection of the law in a country really is one of my basic human responsibilities. We must protect the very things that give us life. And a main priority, given what we are seeing happening across the globe, is that first people rising up to understand that we are connected across all of our different homelands and tribal boundaries through an understanding of the first law, which is the protection of water. Water is life. We are water. Our leadership is not based upon a colonial structure, which is very much around gaining power over this law and country teaches leadership is more around opening to this full-flowing force, this wise, well, loving aspects of ourselves so that we can then respond to our human responsibilities. Unlike a colonial construct, which is very much a rights-based understanding of our law in country and our connection to country and our cultural orientation is we are on the visible cultures. And when we look at the maturity level of first people, our maturity is as older custodians in relationship to all things rather than the petulant juvenile attitudes of the colonial constructors, which really is just mind mine. And that's one of the key aspects and the responsibility of first people to lead our brothers and sisters, our lost relations who have forgotten or are stubbornly refusing to awaken to understand that we have a responsibility to protect other lives. And I feel very blessed as being born as an Aboriginal woman, that we are afforded a recognition within our community. But as we walk out in country, we are learning and reclaiming all those ways of being that have been denied us, which strengthens our understanding of how to communicate, how to receive the knowledge direct from country, direct from that flowing all life. It is a passion of mine to protect old growth forests, mainly because those forests teach us the how to live within egalitarian societies, how the distribution of nutrients can be given across a broad landscape in order for the health and well-being of the whole of that landscape, not just a single tree, not just a single species, but an understanding of the dispersal of health and well-being and nutrients can go across a whole of a large landscape. An old forest teaches us that that is the way, that's the way of thriving healthy communities. The other reason why it's so imperative that we look to the protection of forests is because they call the water, they catch the water from the sky rivers and then soak the water up and then gently disperse the water in a way that is a well-managed system that ensures not only the dispersal across the larger landscape but also the slow release. Some of those old forests, you can walk within the depth of them, and the soil should be really spongy. But because of the devastating logging practices, what we're seeing is the drying up of even the old forests. It's imperative that we act now to follow our cultural responsibility and protect those very things that give us life.
SPEAKER_03Ruth's a really powerful activist and campaigner, and hearing this piece from her just really cements the incredible responsibility with which she holds her role as a leader. But some other context for this is Ruth is currently in the courts in Hobart defending peaceful actions that she has taken to protect our native forests and protecting it through this argument about her responsibility that she this is actually her responsibility to be protecting country. It's wonderful to hear her speak to this.
SPEAKER_05Dear listeners, please don't feel any pressure when you hear these absolutely stunning, articulate voices that you can only submit your own um audio story if you s speak like a silky poet, because I think the standard is really, really high with these stunning stories. I think Ruth has just such a magical voice.
SPEAKER_02Hearing her talk about the old growth forests and nutrient distribution and just breaking down the imagery of what those trees do for ecosystems was so beautiful. I could just see it in my mind.
SPEAKER_03I think the other thing I really loved about this was um she talks a lot about responsibility and uh her responsibility, but also what is a responsible culture. It's just such an important conversation at this point in time. We hear so much about rights, and I feel like there's this real obsession in our culture about my right to this and my right to that. But rights is only one side of the coin. The you you only if you pick up the coin, you've also picked up a heck of a lot of responsibility, and so many people don't want to talk to that. That's the missing piece here, and it's just so central in in her work and um her identity.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I I'm also curious to understand what the state of um play is across Australia in terms of our um old growth forests and and where we're at on protection.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I don't that is a 10-pass series series right there. Um, I mean, happily we've actually seen really big progress in the last five or so years, and just a little brag, led in many cases by Weller Alum, particularly in WA, where legislation to end um growth logging came in a couple of years ago, led by the fantastic Jess Beckling, who's since been elected to Parliament, and that's super exciting. Here in Victoria, we've seen really big progress um phasing out uh logging here as well. But of course, it's never clean cut, right? There's um there's uh carve-outs and there's shifts and change, and the industry morphs into its next ugly beast. So there's still really big threats to logging at 290 forests where where those changes have happened. Um the work continues. It it's an it's ongoing and it and it needs to be amplified.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and unfortunately, I'll ask the ginormous questions in the micro moment. So says about that.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think they're great questions, and I was immediately thinking of Jess Beckling uh when you asked that question at and perhaps we should get her on the pod because she's a force.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And the campaign that they ran for so many decades in the southwest of WA to save and protect those forests has been incredible. Um, the work continues to create really quality transitions in those communities and to make sure those um forests are properly protected. But then, of course, you layer on the next challenge of climate change and the threat that exists uh that many of these forests are and will burn. And so the work um to be protecting nature and to be the responsible citizen, as as Ruth talks to, is very much now.
SPEAKER_05It feels so frustrating that what she's saying needs to be thought in courts, that it needs to be advocated for. It's always the way that like the common sense of protecting nature and protecting our life force needs so much work.
SPEAKER_03Our guest today, and she really is the perfect person to be speaking about this theme of caring for country and centering First Nations leadership, is Sarah Eccles. Sarah is a Wadwarung woman on her father's side from Western Victoria and is involved in her people's cultural programs and governance. She's currently the co CEO of the Wadwarang. Traditional Owners Aboriginal Corporation. And I have had the pleasure of working with Sarah over the last several years because she's also a Weller alum and has been through a couple of our different programs and has contributed into our research reports and our various uh projects and activities. And yeah, Sarah, just love your energy and your wisdom and so glad that we get to have this conversation with you today.
SPEAKER_00No, no, Vic. That's uh it's a joy to be able to come and have the yarn with you and yeah, have a lot of absolute love and respect for you and what you've been doing and what well it does. So I feel quite um honoured and grateful to be able to have the yarn.
SPEAKER_03Uh well, thank you. And also, I should have started by saying a huge congratulations on the um on the co-CEO role. What's that been like to step into?
SPEAKER_00Uh it's been an absolute privilege. It's big. Um it's a big cultural responsibility, but it's also uh I get to do it with my alongside my cousin, um, Beck, who is so deadly and just we've got bring beautiful strengths to it. Um we both come from quite different, you're come from the same mob, obviously, waterung and that cultural strength, but come from quite different backgrounds. And it's so far we're uh nearly a bit over a year into it. We did interim role for about 10 months and now um we're in there for another two years and just so uh good to see post female leadership but waterung leadership uh at the uh being able to guide our organization and really listen to our people. We often joke about having 300 CEOs really uh from a community perspective, but we might be there. Um, but you know, very much it's about community and who they are and what we want for our country and our people.
SPEAKER_05It's really cool. I I'm really enjoying seeing the rise of co-CEOs and that that we're seeing the job sharing at such a senior level. I know Environmental Justice Australia have also the same setup, and there's a lot a number of other organizations, and it's it just warms my heart very deeply to see it. How have you found your way through that um job sharing setup?
SPEAKER_00We did have to do a bit of a um strong share out about how beneficial this could be, how it could work, um, even to the point of having to go, whoa, do you realize Netflix has done this and other larger companies to give a bit of uh sadly a bit of kudos, but uh also just strengthen the argument and just to be really clear about how it could work. My cousin and I had already been working together in different roles for about eight months and knew that we could work really well together. And we kind of made a bit of a commitment, I guess, as uh to each other and and to the organization. And the role was um, you know, a bit like parents of whatever form that might come. Uh, you know, you don't put it out in front of community when you're maybe not on the same uh, you know, perspective on things that always have those feelings behind the scene and and work through and be respectful about that.
SPEAKER_02I remember talking to um the co-CEOs of Environment Venture Justice Australia around the time that they took it on about how they navigate um just making it work. What does it look like day to day? Um just like the real details, I think it's something that our audience will be interested in.
SPEAKER_00Lots of hours, I've got to be honest, at the moment, we've been going through a lot of transition and um I don't think it'll always be like that because we've had the deadly opportunity to be able to employ more people, more traditional owners and more um allies of First Nations people into the organization to do the work. We always check in with each other pretty much most mornings or evenings, uh, the days are full. Um, and as I said, you know, making sure there's good open yarns around things. Uh we do really talk through most things. We don't we don't always agree uh on everything, but it's talking it through and the um, you know, having I guess we're reflecting on this the other day about the three things we're really often trying to balance if you can, is culture, care, and cash in a way, just to be sustainable in in you know, who we are in two worlds and modern-day society today. So um it that is a tricky balance, I think. The most in interacting in such a capitalist sort of society and and role in in an organization that is culturally grounded in a a community that comes from that culture. So it it isn't any easy feat. Um it's definitely not boring.
SPEAKER_03You've built this whole career out of caring for country as well. Can you tell us a bit about your work and how you how you got into caring for country? Because that's been a lot of what you have done over many years and decades now.
SPEAKER_00My father said to me some time ago, you know, you have a role, you have a journey to take and uh a path to take in your in our community. Uh and you know, perhaps I wasn't as respectful back then, years ago, and I'm like, oh yeah, sure. So what is that, Dad? You know, what is it you're asking? And he said, it will come clearer when it's time. Uh I say that because I, you know, grew up always with that uh at my derang my heart, caring for country, um, both ways, you know, have mixed identity and on mum and dad's side, and uh you know, mom's side of family uh from a farming community in Victor in Tasmania. So we did even spending time on and off country throughout my childhood, um, grow up really close to country. And so it just was, I think for me, there.
SPEAKER_03And so what does caring for country mean to you? Um, and particularly if someone is coming at this totally cold, what what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00So, you know, country is kin as well, that it's family, it's it's extended family, it's a part of who we are as identity. Um, it country is alive, it sings, it breathes like we do. And so I guess the care for country is about our continuing role culturally and our cultural responsibility to look after it, to keep it healthy so that we are healthy. You know, everything from cultural burning through to uh weed management or re-vegetation, particularly for country like my own, that's been um, you know, it's had impacts and it's been fragmented and disconnected as have some of our communities over time. So it's about really continuing to care for it as the sustenance for who it who we all are.
SPEAKER_02Can you tell us about what that means in the context of um working in the environment movement? Like being a First Nations leader, um, doing this caring for country work in the environment movement and kind of blending those two spheres together.
SPEAKER_00I guess it's being able to draw on that intergenerational knowledge that has been able to be passed on. You know, we acknowledge in our family and our mob that the elders talk about there has been hidden knowledge and for time, um, particularly across the generations that you know and around the time of stolen gens, you know, so that knowledge was hidden or was taken as people were moved away from country. Today, it is really drawing on that knowledge that has been gifted across the generations and also working with others in partnership with uh Western knowledge to make sure we get the best way of working together and looking after country in the best way we can. Today, you know, waterung have a go butter jar or caring for country team, which is growing quite a lot. We do uh yeah, you know, everything from growing um cultural species and endangered species and uh you know uh plants that belong to country um and putting them back out in areas where they've been damaged. Uh, it involves cultural burning and bringing what we call wind mirror or fire spirit back to country.
SPEAKER_05When it comes to those um those burning um plans and and what that looks like in your regions, what are those conversations looking like in community at the moment?
SPEAKER_00I get they're complex, I've got to be honest. Um, we don't our country has many in modern nowadays many different tenure. Um we don't necessarily see tenure. We see what country needs in healing and keeping it healthy. You know, the but when we go out for those cultural burns is also bringing our young ones and having our elders out there. So quite community events in themselves, but that's not always been easy because uh, you know, there's a lot of safety and um expectation and also change up in like they're slower burns, they take a lot more time. Sometimes when we're walk walking beside other, you know, land managers that it they want to get things done.
SPEAKER_05So um like how do you approach those um conversations with community though? Like, what do they look like when it when there's like division or um bringing people together? Do you have a philosophy or a an approach that you found really works?
SPEAKER_00We do a lot of work with different departments in Victoria, um, you know, that uh working to get cultural knowledge into some of the burn plans, but also really been building our own um wind merit fire team, both uh in our ability to be part of um responding to fire and bushfire and getting our community equipped to do that and building that knowledge.
SPEAKER_05There's a lot of humbike though around things like insurance and you know, there is I feel like you're you're you're really in that like that bridge position, aren't you, of like navigating bureaucracy and being on country and being able to speak different languages and and bring these worlds together.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I mean, every day is many, many meetings. So we're getting through that. Uh yeah, we're incredibly we acknowledge every day the fight that's gone on before us for as younger generations, which often chuckle at seeing myself younger, but definitely younger compared to our beautiful elders and those who've you know been fighting for so long, both broader First Nations community advocating and and our own people to have a seat in those rooms and say, look, this isn't working, this isn't the way that we would like to see things happen. Um, and we're seeing that change. There's a lot of work in advocacy in general to get some sort of understanding of what cultural burning is and uh the way we do it. A few years back now, we would have a lot of CFA and DECA and other um, you know, people who spent years doing burns and and fighting fires, but also you know, uh doing control burns or fuel reduction burns. They would stand behind us like a um a watching force, I guess. And over the years that's become less and less. So there's been building that understanding and that um, you know, I guess sadly confidence in in our ability to to burn and um you know our our determination and self-determination is this is to be leading those burns ourselves for our country and deciding what what country needs.
SPEAKER_03So, Sarah, what are some of the biggest lessons you think we uh the the broader community needs to learn about partnering with First Nations communities so that we can actually see uh real progress on these issues?
SPEAKER_00Genuinely asking what it is that uh community wants and need and what's their guidance and listening to that. Like uh you can be in a lot of meetings where there's a bit of, okay, you know, we want to engage on this and we think we need to do this, or we'll come to you here where there's um, you know, a strategy or a management plan written already. And what do you reckon? So I think first and foremost, really important to do that early engagement and really come in early and yell into people um uh from a First Nations uh or a traditional perspective. Too often we are asked about something that's well set in chain and we don't have a lot of ability to uh, you know, really influence what that look that decision making for countries looks like.
SPEAKER_03Do you think that's poor bureaucratic process that people are just sort of seeing this as an engagement consultation piece coming too late? Or do you think there's also a a fear about difference?
SPEAKER_05Or also a fear of doing it wrong and not knowing the way in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I think it can be all of those. Um and yeah, I do hear that often is just the oh, what if I don't we don't do it the right way? Um I I think if you worked with community, you know, we'll speak up and let you know whether that's the right way or not, pretty uh clearly. Um and I think, yeah, I guess often it is saying you're you're organizing five years out often for a plan or for a project or you know, a decision that will affect our people and our country, but uh you you come in when that's about to roll out. Just asking about those things much earlier on and following through.
SPEAKER_05Are we looking at a symptom of engaging with community in a meaningful way, or is that also just a like a microcosm of what's happening everywhere?
SPEAKER_00You know, what we're in essence having to work within systems and change systems. It is a colonial system that we're working within, but trying to really push what our needs are. Sometimes the cultural load is just it's heavy, you know. There's so many rooms you're in that you you're just trying to explain, and um you're often the minority in everything. Um and just thinking about that as a cultural load, it is exhausting, but we also feel the important of being there and being, as I said, our elders have fought so hard, our community members have generations of activism to even get this opportunity. So one of the things that we're really uh in the midst of in Victoria is a transition in energy to renewable energy. First Nations people have been locked out of their often, locked out of their country in resources and any equity in you know, the setup of of energy from the beginning. So this does offer an opportunity to see a bit of redistribution of wealth intergenerationally for First Nations people and for traditional owners whose country it's impacting. Um and to come to that engagement question, you know, there's lots of discussion with the proponents, and there is uh a real opportunity for you know companies and government at this stage to truly uh listen and hear and provide benefit sharing back to communities that will enable our foundations to thrive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I remember somebody actually putting it to me that this is kind of a not a once in a generation, but a once-only opportunity to have the power to address so much of exactly what you're talking about, Sarah. I I'm interested, like, do you have any sort of shining light examples of hope that you can see or um models that you're keen to replicate here?
SPEAKER_00We are at the early journey of that, I would say. Uh, but you know, referencing and seeing other First Nations, you know, Tattle Island, Canada, you know, they've they've got some really strong, uh well-negotiated examples and learning from that. Um I think that one of the real strengths in Victoria is seeing the different traditional owner groups who or nations whose country are uh you know in the renewable energy zones. Um we've been strongly coming together and advocating together and learning together around what good negotiation looks like and holding strength together with uh proponents and and government um around what our expectation is for strong, proper engagement. And you know, there is a lot more strength in that collectivity.
SPEAKER_03You talked um, Sarah, about some of these examples in Victoria, and there has been a really big movement here that potentially can open um doors to new ways of doing things, and that's with the new treaty process that you've been a huge part of securing here in Victoria. So, I mean, straight up, a huge congratulations to you and many, many generations of First Nations activists and community members who have campaigned for that. What do you think the impact of treaty is going to be here in Victoria?
SPEAKER_00It has been so deadly to see it get through government. I think we all were like, is this actually going to get enshrined? Um it is still unwritten. Like there, again, lots of learning from you know our brothers and sisters in Ruth Aurora and the Mahdi people and all forms of treaty throughout the world with First Nations people who have been um drawn from in the treaty process. It opens a way for us to really have a strong voice that is uh a guiding voice and a representative voice, both from traditional community and from broader community. That you know, the discussion and you know can be scary, I think, for for broader society in general, is nothing's off the table. So for many of us in the South, where um you know other forms of rights and recognition through new, whether it being native title or um what's been the Traditional Settlement Uh Act in Victoria have been long and difficult processes. Treaty does offer opportunity to again set foundations, you know, really self-determined foundations for community about where we want to be. It gives an opportunity for a constant voice and clarity, I think, too, like for broader society and ability to share up more culture and see that more centered in the school curriculum and you know, helping our young ones to to really have that at an early age and and learn together. Um and you know, the foundational elements for our community. And I think the foundations for economic independence, which in a way that suits culture, that really sings to who uh we are and embeds that cultural knowledge and way of being and just bringing cultural practice into the heart of even you know the government as well, and you know, that practice and ceremony in in that uh space.
SPEAKER_03Sarah, it sounds like you have a lot of hope for what treaty can create and and where this goes, but it has not been an easy process to get here, and we know the challenges are far from over. How have you coped with the sustained attacks that a lot of First Nations communities have been facing in recent years? The treaty is just the latest example. And how do you hold yourself through that individually as as well as as a community?
SPEAKER_00That's a good call out, Vic. It's not, you know, while we see change um, you know, in in lack of that engagement and some change up in the system, it's slow. And then on the other nuts side, but then there's also been particularly with the rise of social media, you know, it's difficult to even yam up to to something like this and have this yarn today because it's not a culturally safe space for many of us. Uh, you know, you look at the comments that run through post the voice, it was just like it was a kick in the guts, it was a kick in the heart, you know. Uh but you know, our old people have been here, they have fought through many different governments and changes and broken promises. We will continue to continue to stand up and stand strong. That's where we come from. That is part of what sustains us, doesn't mean it's easy by any means. And um we're very conscious, I think, of it too in Victoria as we head into a state government election this year. It's the time that it just I think really taking that time for time out and and healing, like you know, even just taking time out from from the social media at times when there's deliberate mistruths about what's going on, that part's hard. And the unpacking of you know, our history and that truth telling is a really strong part of treaty. It's a strong part of what we need to do, not to place guilt and blame, but to understand and to be able to move forward together and you know, create a society that we really all do love and value and have a place within. Um and why not? Acknowledge and uphold the oldest living culture. I mean, you know, that is our strength we continue to draw from. But I often reflect that we're all part of that culture, having grown from this country. And even if you do come from elsewhere, like country does talk and speak. We don't just see it for us. We truly know that within. And if you take the time to be with country and you know, deeply listen, it will. And it does sustain all of us. And it is the thing that is central to our well-being.
SPEAKER_03Well, an enormous, you know, congratulations again to you and your whole community for that staunch advocacy and that courage. And I think, you know, at going into this state election and beyond, there is a role and responsibility on us as the rest of the community to also be standing around First Nations community, being those strong allies, being those strong voices, lessening that load where we can. And I think that's something for us to really consciously hold in these coming months as well. For us in this podcast, Sarah, there's something else that sustains some of us, and that is dancing.
SPEAKER_06I'm wondering so much. Just so light.
SPEAKER_03So do you dance? And if so, what is one of your best dancing stories? Oh now you're going.
SPEAKER_00Uh also, you know, again to maybe be a bit classic, but uh I dance like dancing ceremony with my community and my family members, and that is always one of the most uh yeah connecting things to do. And uh, you know, also hearing our younger family members sing up in language which we haven't had ongoing fluent language speakers through our generations or in later generations, so that's incredibly powerful. Some of my favourites, I do love to dance though, I do love a good pushtof, like some do. And uh the feeling of connection of all of us in society at something like that, and perhaps one of my favorites. Um, I won't reference where it was, but on a really beautiful some someone else's country and um a really beautiful place to be, and dancing up in the rain with so many others and just saturated and just and dancing at the storm with the mud, and then you know, we ended up in um our calves to to with mud and just such joy to uh be refreshed by the rain and the dance and the music at the same time. So yeah, love to dance outside, love to really have uh country huggers while we do that together.
SPEAKER_03I cannot wait to have an opportunity to dance on your country with you, which I'm sure will happen one day. Thank you so much for being here for this conversation and just acknowledge that it, yeah, you're right, it's a big ask to constantly show up for yarns like this and to have these conversations. I also just acknowledging you commented on uh how important it is to bring language back. It's one of the pieces that's really core to your culture, your community, and what's open and possible um with treaty. And I always really um respect that whenever we're in communication, you often use language with me, and I've learnt so much through that. So I just also want to say good butter, or take care, and thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Rick, and thank you for the opportunity to have you on and for listening, everybody.
SPEAKER_02Hey, thank you, Sarah. It was so lovely to hear from you, and thank you for all of the work that you have done in Victoria for Treaty as a Victorian. I'm I'm so grateful.
SPEAKER_03What a generous discussion, hey.
SPEAKER_02So many topics, so many interesting facets of not just her work and the actual content of her work, but her leadership in there as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I feel like we probably could have spent about 17 hours with her um quite comfortably to dig into everything. But yeah, I think I I am this sounds like a very naive observation. But and also can we just maybe edit this if it's too stupid? But I think just it's really landing with me the connection to family and country and community. And like at first I was like, oh what a novelty. A cousin is a co-CEO, but then it's like, oh, of course. Like and just the the difference in um, you know, traditional organizational design versus you know community design with family and the complexity that dealing with family also brings as a layer to this. So yeah, it was um nice to land with that through that conversation, if that's not too surly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it's really important to recognize and and to hear, because I think that's one of the reasons First Nations communities are holding so many layers of leadership in all of their roles. It's not you don't step out into a um a professional space and that be different or in any way separate from your cultural responsibilities and your family responsibilities and your responsibility to country as well.
SPEAKER_05Like that's a it's a very it's kind of the pressure we need to uphold our highest selves at all times as well, right? You know, like that sort of separation of self in a corporate identity is perhaps what allows people to make decisions that they might otherwise not make.
SPEAKER_03Oh, can you imagine some of the some of the CEOs of fossil fuel companies if they were actually accountable to future generations and to country and to the and had to front up?
SPEAKER_06Like you're trying to negotiate that with your granny. Yeah. Not happening.
SPEAKER_02Also reflecting on uh kind of the the day-to-day ins and outs of we have to divide and conquer, what are our strengths, who's gonna report to us, you go do that, I'll go do this, is such a clever way of operating in a CEO, co-CEO role, and surely has the opportunity to get even better outcomes than you if you've got one brain on it. Like it's it just it makes so much sense to me that you would do that.
SPEAKER_05It's a real, it's a real reflection of where we are at with women in leadership. It's like women were allowed to exist as leaders and then they're allowed to design as leaders, you know. It it's just so um so lovely to see. And I feel like something seeing it in a lifetime in the workforce.
SPEAKER_02And it's and it's not easier, like you have to navigate a process that helps you work out where you sit on disagreements and move forward as a united front. Like that is not easy work, um, but it is a very clever way of approaching a really difficult role.
SPEAKER_05It's also keeping senior women in the workforce, allowing people to have more flexibility and expand their remit whilst also not having to step away from one of the things that I really loved is when I mean we get into that really difficult conversation around what it was like to exist through referendum and treaty campaigns, and which is just you know fundamentally unimaginable to me how much that how hard that must have been.
SPEAKER_03And you come to how you hold yourself and it comes back to country, and just recognizing that that connection to nature and connection to country is such a through line of existence and life and identity and spirituality and healing. Uh, and it just, I mean, we we see it in First Nations communities, we know it from the science, we know the benefits of nature and spending time in nature on mental health and relationships health and all sorts of things, but to know that it's so ingrained in a way of being is is so beautiful and powerful, and it's also accessible to all of us, right? Like we all to a point though, to a point.
SPEAKER_05Good point, good point. Like I'm sitting here in a tiny little box in South Bank, and the first thing that hit me when I opened the door was what was it like for people during COVID in these apartments? And what is it like for people that have busy full lives that don't have the opportunity to have access to nature? That in the way that I do that, that Sarah knows that is so integral for us to want to fight for something. That's the thing that scares me, these tiny little boxes and disconnect with nature is how do you fight for something you don't even know it exists?
SPEAKER_02The other, the other part that was very interesting, um, and I'm so glad she brought it up, was the renewables piece and First Nations communities' role in in the energy transition and the opportunity that it has to create huge economic benefit and really turning upside down the paradigm. And what they have been able to do in Canada is pretty amazing, actually. Like there are a few um communities that now develop their own projects, like they are developers in their own right. Um, and what the First Nations Clean Energy Network has been able to achieve in this term of government, federally, has been really amazing for that kind of plight, but it there's still such a far way to go.
SPEAKER_03A huge thanks to my co-host, Odette Barry and Saniah Kissy, for another um very, very powerful interview. Thank you so much. And of course, uh big thanks to our guest today, Sarah Eccles and our contributor, Ruth Langford. Your leadership and your voices are very, very greatly appreciated. If you have enjoyed this podcast, then please join us again in the next four nights and ever after. And please subscribe and share and leave friends and family. The links are all in the show notes. Then we'll be dancing as a podcast by Women's Environmental Leadership Australia.