There Will Be Dancing

Storytelling for Social Change with Natalie Kyriacou

• Women's Environmental Leadership Australia • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Can a story change the way we see nature? Can humour do what doom cannot? And what happens when we finally start telling the stories of the women, the weirdos, and the wildlife the world has long overlooked?

In this episode of There Will Be Dancing, Victoria, Odette and Sanaya sit down with award-winning environmentalist, author and founder of My Green World, Natalie Kyriacou OAM. A national ambassador for the Australian Conservation Foundation and a Forbes 30 Under 30 honouree, Natalie has spent more than a decade finding new ways to draw people into the environmental conversation, from building a mobile game that turned kids into virtual conservationists, to writing her acclaimed debut, Nature's Last Dance.

Together they explore storytelling as a vehicle for social change: why so many people are checking out of climate doom, how humour and curiosity can reach the audiences that policy papers never will, and what it means to write a nature book that a tradie, a bird watcher, a scientist and a school kid can all pick up and love. Natalie shares the story behind Nature's Last Dance, the quirky and unforgettable characters she met along the way and why she set out to write a love letter to the environmental community as much as a book about the natural world.

This episode also features a beautiful audio contribution from ecologist and science communicator Dr Kylie Soanes. In a piece called The Story of a Reluctant Storyteller, Kylie reflects on finding her own voice as a nature storyteller in cities, on noticing birds at bus stops and peacock spiders at the kitchen sink, and on the quiet power of telling the story only you can tell.

We hope this episode leaves you laughing, thinking, and a little more convinced that the stories we tell about nature, and about each other, are some of the most important tools we have for change.

Learn more about Natalie Kyriacou and Nature's Last Dance at nataliekyriacou.com and discover her work with My Green World at mygreenworld.org

Follow Dr Kylie Soanes and her work on urban nature at @drkyliesoanes on Instagram and TikTok

Our Hosts:

  • Victoria McKenzie-McHarg (CEO, WELA) - A strategic leader with decades of experience in climate and environmental advocacy.
  • Odette Barry (Founder, Odette & Co) - A storyteller and PR expert teaching changemakers how to tell their story.
  • Sanaya Khisty (Head of Strategy and Government Relations, 5B) - A policy and advocacy leader working in clean tech on climate solutions.

Follow us on socials (@therewillbedancingpod): Instagram | TikTok

Want to learn more about WELA? Visit wela.org.au and find us on Instagram | LinkedIn | Facebook

This episode is proudly supported by Women's Agenda, helping to amplify essential conversations at the intersection of environment, gender, and leadership.

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to There Will Be Dancing, a podcast that amplifies the voices of women and gender-diverse change makers protecting our environment and climate. Early 20th century political activist Emma Goldman once said, If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution. And we use this to remind ourselves, and you, our dear listener, that embracing joy amidst the turbulence of change making takes real courage and commitment. So let's have some fun. We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians and storytellers of these lands. And pay special recognition for the Bungelung Nations, a Rundry Country where this podcast is created. This podcast is by Women's Environmental Leadership Australia. And our thanks to Women's Agenda for supporting these essential conversations about the environment, gender, and leadership.

SPEAKER_05

Welcome to another episode of There Will Be Dancing. It's great to have you all here with us again. I'm your host, Odette Barry, and I'm joined as always by my lovely co-hosts, Sanaya Kissy and Victoria Mackenzie McCaughe. How are you both going? I'm good.

SPEAKER_03

I'm doing well. Yeah, I spent the weekend um preparing to host a 21st birthday party, and then today at a funeral of a friend's parent. And between these two, over the last three or four days, I'm like bookended by these big life moments and like reflecting on what is it to live a good life? How do you do the best you can with what you've got in the moment in a big world? So I'm in a very reflective space. Reflecting on the opportunity at that moment of the 21st when life is just full of the next and what could possibly be. And then that moment of reflection on a life, it was a beautiful service on a life very, very well lived. Um, and just reminding you what you need to reconnect with and recommit to, and um yeah, what matters.

SPEAKER_05

At the beach or the lighthouse, and when I can nail the discipline to really hold myself to what I want to do, I feel very proud of myself, and it does give me a ridiculous high. So yeah, can recommend that if anyone's wondering what makes for a good life.

SPEAKER_02

That's incredible. That sounds wonderful, and I'm not close enough to water to make that happen so easily.

SPEAKER_03

What time are you waking up to respecting my um alarm clock to make that happen?

SPEAKER_05

I mean, I can give you a little snapshot into what it takes to when you're not a morning person, but my alarm clock um goes off at 4:45, and my alarms go solidly for about half an hour, and that's how I get out of bed.

SPEAKER_02

I that is actually my my partner used to do that, and I there's actually nothing that makes me more angry.

SPEAKER_03

I'm with you. I feel that viscerally. You can't do that. You can't do that.

SPEAKER_05

So, not to lead us anywhere in particular, but I'm interested, what are your favorite nature books?

SPEAKER_02

So I have just been scanning my spreadsheet of books because I um like that and I keep uh a list of all the books that I've read with ratings and also sort of some information about the authors so that I can make sure I'm diversifying where I'm getting my information sources from. And the the ones that stand out for me are nature books. I so there's two in particular. The first Knowledges series that came out a few years ago has a book on song lines, and it was so informative for me to actually understand what song lines are in relation to country and how to think about them. It just gave me this new way of thinking about. And when I did the um the Jap Buller Trail uh on Jiawan Country a couple of years ago, having read that, it just made it made the experience so much more magical. Um, so that one is a big one. But the other one is not really about nature, but it it it had a thread of nature, which was how to do nothing, um, which it was during the rounds a couple of years ago, like right when COVID kicked off, and it was about the attention economy and the way that you can kind of escape the attention economy through nature. And I just I loved that book so much.

SPEAKER_05

Also, how does it not surprise me that you have a structured and orderly approach to categorizing the books that you wrote? And I noted that as well.

SPEAKER_02

If someone asked me for a book recommendation, I have to go back and look. You know, I need I need notes to refer back to.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I love that. What about you, Vic? Uh, I mean, I'm a huge fan of Robin Wall Camera, uh, who's a First Nations scientist from the US, and her ability to combine storytelling and cultural knowledge and that deep personal connection with nature alongside the scientific ways of knowing and recognizing those two worlds as needing to come together, I think is so powerful and beautiful. I was talking to a good friend of mine who just turned 21 yesterday, and for her birthday, she was given another one of Robin Walkamera's books, Gathering Moss. And she's not a scientist, she's not studying science. Um, and I wasn't sure how the books, those books would land for her, but she's loving them. And it's the storytelling that um hooks her in and um really resonates for her, and that was lovely. But at the moment, I'm actually reading a book by Leslie Head, who's an Australian academic uh and author. It's called Beyond Green, um, and a beautiful book, The Social Life of Australian Nature, and just challenging some of the ways that we interpret and understand what nature is and our relationship to nature, like that that it is a social relationship, not just a scientific, othered um and measurable relationship, through uh through a uh sort of a much more traditionally Western academic lens. So gorgeous book, and I'm I'm really enjoying that at the moment. What about you, Adette?

SPEAKER_05

Yes, oh well, I mean, I feel like you stole my mention. Braiding Sweetgrass is definitely the pinnacle of delightful reads for me. I think that, as you said, it's that combination of like traditional storytelling, the lyrical language that Robin Walkumera uses is just nothing short of a delight. But I guess probably on the flip side of another book that I really enjoyed was um Degrowth Communism, that is um sort of an economic environmental argument for slowing down. And I think as someone who's probably less aware of like the economic landscape, I found that really accessible and described in a way that really landed and made sense for me. And I think I read Grading Sweetgrass and um Degrowth Communism at a similar time, and the two just really perfectly helped me feel more confident to engage in these conversations and spaces.

SPEAKER_03

I also really love um when nature becomes a character in um in fictional work as well. So I've really two two of my favorite Australian authors, Tim Wynn and Richard Flanagan, both of them, nature forms just not just part of a background, but this sort of visceral character and part of the evolution. And you have this glimpse and connection to Western Australia and Tasmania through those two authors. Places that I've visited, but I've never lived in or had that personal connection, and yet they can do that through their storytelling. And I I feel that so strongly from both of their work.

SPEAKER_05

So the reason I asked is surprise, surprise, it's our theme today. Today, we're going to be talking about storytelling as a vehicle for social change, and we're really lucky to chat with the author of another one of our favorite books, Natalie Kiriyaku, who has written the fantastic Nature's Last Dance. But first, because this is a community podcast, every episode has a contribution from you. Today, that is Dr. Kylie Soames, who is reading a reflection called The Story of a Reluctant Storyteller. It's a personal narrative about reluctantly attracting attention as a growing voice in nature storytelling. Dr. Soames explores and celebrates the environment through an urban lens, highlighting the need for protection of biodiversity in cities, putting her own authentic spin and experience into the practice.

SPEAKER_00

A few years ago, if you told me I would build a public platform where I shared stories about nature in cities, made daily videos with my face in them and everything, and then put them on the internet for everyone to see, I would have been horrified. It was absolutely nightmare material for me. And I guess I had two big hangups. The first was straight-out fear. Wouldn't people think I was just arrogant and up myself, talking everywhere all the time? After all, I was raised in an era where the worst thing that a girl could do was try to get attention. Being behind the camera was much safer. Very demure. I also didn't feel like the other nature storytellers that I could see. They were either excitable young blokes or softly spoken oxygenarians, who I love, by the way. But that wasn't gonna work for me. I was noticing birds at bus stops, not traveling to fern laden forests or vast open plains. I don't even have any khaki. So I told stories in secret, I hid behind academic paywalls or I just that plane stayed quiet. And I watched. I watched as people kept talking about urban environments as if they were wastelands and good for nothing, places where nature didn't belong. I watched as people continued to miss out on the nature under their noses, as policies failed to recognize the value and protect biodiversity in cities, and as opportunities to fill our cities with nature were missed. The story that needed to be told, the one that I wanted to see, was missing. So I stopped being a horse and I told it. Simply and my way. Now thousands of people tune in to hear me talk about the awesomeness of small round birds with uh fan tails and aggressive eyebrows, or a cool moth I just saw, or the garden in the supermarket car park that's working double time to clean our stormwater. People tune in to hear stories about nature in cities, the everyday and the mundane. And the community that has formed in response has been incredible. And I think that's because it's a story that people can see themselves in. They don't have to know the scientific name for things or travel somewhere distant to be delighted and awed by nature. They can do it themselves while they're washing the dishes, which is where I saw my first peacock spider, or waiting for a train, which is where you can see a pelican ride the thermals. Or just dropping their kids off at school, which is where I saw endangered gang gang cockatoos. They write in to tell me about the cool things that they just saw and ask me if I know which bird is making that weird noise, or how they could attract blue-banded bees to their garden. And that's a really wonderful power to have given people. Because that's what it's about, right? It's about empowering these stories. Changing the way people look at nature in cities and towns gives them the power to help nature to make change. Whether it's a local politician, a city council, or just someone in their own backyard, people are realizing that they have the power to do something. So if you've ever hesitated or you felt that your voice wasn't worth adding to the fray, maybe rethink it and give it another crack. Because I promise you there are people out there who will take it as a breath of fresh air, and it will be just the thing that they needed to hear.

SPEAKER_05

What good energy on so many different different levels, yes, so many different levels, Snyer. I feel like she spoke to you on a level. As soon as I heard this, I was like, oh, oh, yes, we must reflect on this. Tell me.

SPEAKER_02

It's so true. Like the the fear of putting yourself out there, it's not just it's not just the fear of putting yourself out there, it's the feeling of like I have nothing worth saying. I I I'm not a voice to contributing to this, and I just totally resonate with that. And I also yeah, I I love how the thing that she just did on her own time for herself became that platform to share with others that resonated so strongly.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I mean, I I definitely am so grateful that you are speaking up right now and sharing your ideas and voice because it it is quite honestly such a pleasure to hear your perspective and and how you think about things. So please keep stepping forward. But I also really relate to that sense of being an outsider and watching other people be better, smarter, quicker, more capable. And I think I can apply that lens to every aspect of my life. It's one of my superpowers. But one thing that the three of us have reflected on is that you two aren't on Instagram, other than creeping up like via other people's accounts, like oh, I'm not on Instagram, but you're actually using someone else's account, and so you are actually there. But we'll park that part of the conversation. But one thing I love about social media is seeing inside other people's worlds, and and that's what she's allowed us to do is see inside of her world and bring us in, and when we see, we know we can respond, engage, understand all of those delicious things. And I just love that she's like the the I just in my head I have this picture of the plants in the supermarket car park. Like and and I I love that so deeply. That is one of the ordinary, everyday things that is so deserving of our love and cherishment, and big love to her for creating space to celebrate those spaces.

SPEAKER_03

She's also done it in her own way, and I think you know, I loved the acknowledgement of she didn't even own khaki. I don't own khaki. I am um probably a very poor environmentalist and nature lover by most people's uh most professional people's sort of assessment of that. But just saying, you know, it doesn't matter. There's not a standard you need to meet. If you love it and you've got it and you've got a connection and a story to tell, we need to hear it. I really like that permission and just making it her own way of doing it, finding the stories that were going to resonate for her and trusting someone else might need to hear this.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I think that trusting that someone else might need to hear this, but also trusting that even if no one else listens to it or sees it to do it anyway for the love and the joy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and the love and the joy of the content that she's bringing is so important too. Like it connects us in our everyday in a way where like nature is not something that you have to go to to experience.

SPEAKER_03

Nature in our cities, right? So important.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and and if I reflect on my own use of social media, I use social media as a tool for business and a lot for pleasure. Um, but the content that I get the most engagement from is always little flowers in my back garden or you know, like a sunrise, and it it's that connection to nature, those little slices of joy that we we want to see there. So yes, keep being an influencer for Mama Nature, please. Please. Well, I think it's perfect time for us to introduce our guest that we have joining us today, the wonderful author Natalie Kiriyaku. Natalie is obviously an environmentalist, but also an author. And her approach to activism, I think the thing that I enjoy the most is her sense of humor and the creativity that she brings to this work. She uses storytelling to help people fall in love with nature. And I think anyone who reads her books or hears her talk will um will feel that love that she has for it. But her efforts have recently awarded her titles, such as the National Ambassador at the Australian Conservation Foundation. She's earned a medal of order for Australia and is was nominated as a Forbes 30 under 30. A lot of her work centres around youth engagement. She actually built an app to engage young people with nature. She's made waves with the online education platform. She created My Green World. Its purpose is to champion young people and inspire activism through creativity. Natalie, I think you fall into the category of another person that I've stalked heavily online and fangirled. So um welcome to the podcast. It's very nice to finally chat with you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I think one of the things that I enjoy most about your work is the way that you tackle really horrific subject matter with such um a humorous approach. And you've really understood how to come at this work in a way to make it accessible. So very excited to unpack your approach to storytelling in this conversation today. Oh, that's very kind. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03

On that theme, Natalie, why did you write a book? Why storytelling as your pathway to, you know, raising awareness here?

SPEAKER_04

I've always loved books. So my my life growing up was nature and books. Um, I I was a big, big reader. Um, but I I wrote it and the timing for when I wrote it was interesting and because I I could see people checking out of environmental issues. Um, I could see a lot of people feeling that environmental issues were too big, too impossible for them to tackle. I was also seeing, you know, increasing division where we just, I mean, there's disagreements and division within the environmental community, but there's also increasing climate denial. And I thought um I wanted to write a book that could appeal to a mainstream audience, um, which is uncommon generally for nature books. I I wanted to um write a book that could be picked up by um a tradesman, for example, that might never have um had any interest in reading an environmental book. Um, and so it was my way of trying to bridge social divides a little bit, but also pay tribute to this incredible environmental community while um while making some of these uh seemingly niche environmental issues quite mainstream.

SPEAKER_05

I feel like your conversation on the morning show with Larry and Kylie was the perfect example of you nailing being able to chat to tradies um through the subject matter in just how well received that clip was on social media.

SPEAKER_04

And there's it's been funny, the marketing for the book, just the nature of some of the stories that I'm talking about, they're so quirky. Um, and they sound, I mean, they don't sound real. And so there have been a few little clips going around in the in the media where I'm talking about these ridiculous true stories, but it's actually helped draw attention to the book and the themes in the book. Um and so yeah, I've had I've I mean, in the news right now, there's stories of me associated with an ejaculation helmet, with fish herpees, with the clitorises of great apes. Um, and in my mind, I just think whatever I have to do to get people talking about nature and caring about nature, I'll I'll do it. So um, so yeah, it did um it it's has sp the book has sparked some really interesting conversation and um and ignited curiosity in in people that wouldn't traditionally pick up a nature book, and that's incredible. Exactly what I hoped for.

SPEAKER_02

You're obviously the perfect person for it though, because I remember when I was reading the book, there were some standout laugh out loud points. But then there were also, like you say, some examples that I was just shocked by. Like the the example of the bird that people on social media were going and taking, and like I just couldn't believe that that's a thing that's happening. And we're we're doing those kinds of things as human beings and not even questioning it. So yeah, that's one of my favorite stories.

SPEAKER_04

Um so the kakapor is um a parrot, and it is the heaviest parrot in the world, and it's from New Zealand, and it's really quirky, and they they almost look like mammals. They're um quite heavy set and and almost fluffy looking, but they're gorgeous. Um, and they're also the only parrot in the world that cannot fly. Um, and they've been besieged by a range of issues. One is that they um have had their population was um historically has been declining. Um, there's less than 250 left in the wild. Um, and unfortunately, the males have issues with reproduction. So the the male birds get together and they they waddle up a hill and then they start ballowing into the dirt. Um and they do that with the hope that they'll attract the ladies. Um but unfortunately.

SPEAKER_05

I mean what else attracts the ladies like a bellowing into the dirt? I know.

SPEAKER_04

Um but unfortunately the ladies, you know, they don't respond to that particular brand of male romance, so they just don't show up. Um and that's meant that sometimes these these males um they've started trying to mate with other things. Um, so they've been caught trying to mate with other species of bird. Um and on one occasion there was a very famous incident where BBC was in New Zealand um filming this, the Kakapoor, and the Kakapoor started mating with the head of the cameraman, the BBC cameraman. Um, and they poached your luck. Yeah, try your luck. And it's very, it's quite funny to watch, but on YouTube, um, I think YouTube, you know, the comments was something like I think it was titled Imagine Being Um Sexually Harassed by the World's Heaviest Flightless Bird, or something like that. And it went absolutely viral. Um, and it has drawn attention to some of the unusual mating habits of of this of the world's heaviest parrot. But then there was this vet, and her name's Kate McGuinness, and she's a a New Zealand vet, and um, she thought, well, you know, if the Kagapo wants a human head, then a human head he shall have. And so she went to a store and she bought a rugby helmet, and then she converted the rugby helmet into what she called um an ejaculation helmet, which was essentially a hat of condoms. And then she ventured into the forest at night and just waited to see if a cakapoor would come and mate with her head. Um, and then the cakapor did come and mate with her head. Um, and so she said, um, unfortunately though, that there was a few issues. One is that she didn't consider that it's the world's heaviest parrot, and so um, and they also have sex for a really long time. So she said she spent a few nights in the forest getting her head humped by the world's heaviest parrot for hours on end. Um, and unfortunately, not a single drop of semen was produced because the whole aim of the helmet was to collect the semen um so it could help the parrot reproduce, and it didn't work. So um it was a failed breeding aid, and now the helmet sits in the um the nearby museum.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, but I did I see a headline that they have had a cracker um humping season and they've had some good results.

SPEAKER_04

It is it is actually one of the really good news stories of the year that they are having like these breeding bonanza. Um there is there are more babies than ever being born. Um there are fewer reproductive challenges. It's um it's and it's actually been amazing to watch.

SPEAKER_05

I think one of the things that I really enjoy about your work is your very Australian self-deprecating humor. The way you are comfortable to poke fun at um yourself as well as the um the content that you're working with. And I just wondered where you learned that craft.

SPEAKER_04

It's a little bit intimidating to do it in a book because you know that um, well, not everybody's gonna find you funny. Um, most people might not understand your sense of humor. I know that the, you know, my sense of humor, which is probably a little bit more reflective of that Australian sense of humor of a reverence, might not translate well to other cultures. Um, and so it was a a little bit risky, uh, I thought, but it was also unintentional with the book. I mean, my style, I mean, for my friends and family that have read the book, they they've all said it is just it is very much my personality. It is, it is just me. Um, but um that can be I I felt quite vulnerable being that and I I didn't intend for the book to be funny. It was just I started writing and the stories were so absurd and so quirky, and also I just felt like I wanted to go there, and I and some topics are quite dark, so I I wanted to bring a little bit of light and levity to them. And so it actually wasn't really intentional, but as I as I started and I started incorporating these funny stories, that's when I realized my oh okay, this is um this is actually going to be a a really critical part of the book, and I think something that is going to enrich the book. Um, but it is, I guess that has been my style. I think um by adding a little bit of humor, it can sometimes shine a light on the absurdity of our relationship with nature or the absurdity of humans' destruction of nature or the absurdity of situations. Um and I I I want people to feel, especially when they read the book or or when I'm when I'm communicating it all, I I I want people to laugh or cry or um feel joy or feel inspired. Um those are really I think those are really important, and I want them to think, and and um, but I think people to really care, you you you need to feel something. Um and I had a conversation with a journalist more recently. Um it was interesting because he came along to this book launch I did in the UK and um I asked him why I said we're always focusing on the stories of Doom when it comes to the environment. And I I can see people checking out of that. I think we need to we we need to balance this out a bit more. We need to have a greater diversity of conversations. And he said, Well, it's just that Doom is what people click on. Um it generates the most views. And then after my um book launch, which was focused on some of these quirky stories, he came up to me and he said, You know what? I was wrong. Um, there is another mode of communication that gets views. He's like making people laugh. Um, and so I I didn't know, I didn't think about it that way before I wrote the book, but it has, it's been really effective. Like, for example, the Kakapor, that story that I told you, they have, I mean, they get a lot of support now because they have these really funny, quirky stories tied to them. And so I do think that um, I mean, we need to showcase the the stories of hardship around the world, but equally, I think we still need to help people laugh um and fall in love with these species.

SPEAKER_02

And the book, though, is a culmination of a long history of work that you have done in this space. And I am really curious about your pathway into this work. How did you how did you actually get into it?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I spent my late teen years getting rejected from every job that I had ever applied for. Um, and so I was faced with some pretty strong evidence that I was really undesirable to the entire labor market. And so I became a volunteer um because I just thought, no one's hiring me. I'm going to do things I'm really passionate about. Um, and I started volunteering, and it was there were limited career paths to the things that I wanted to do. I wanted to work in human rights and um environmental rights and um and social impact spaces. And I just when I graduated, the career paths were they just felt more limited. Um, anyway, I became a volunteer and then I became a university student, which meant that I wasn't earning an income, but I was also paying to learn. Um, and while I was at university, I studied a degree in journalism. And then after that, I started doing my master's in international relations, which was a sort of fusion of um law and politics. Um, but while I was at university, I started a passion project. Um, and it was to build a mobile game app that allowed kids to become virtual conservationists and they could support charities around the world and learn about um, you know, endangered species and build their own world fill um uh filled with wildlife, where they could clean up oil spills and compete in educational pop quizzes. And it was meant to be a passion project, but it became quite popular. Um, I became completely consumed by it. I thought I mean I still think it was such a it was such a great initiative. So that by the time I graduated for my master's, um, which I, you know, I had originally thought that I would be a foreign correspondent reporting on environmental crimes, but by the time I graduated for my master's, I was the CEO of a of a charity that was building education programs, a wildlife and environmental education programs for kids. And so um that really set me up my current path. And then from there it was I became heavily involved in the nonprofit sector, in the NGO sector, working with environmental organizations, humanitarian organizations, um, and learning how to be a better storyteller, um, you know, better working with policymakers. I worked in corporate for a bit because I wanted to um, I wanted to figure out, I wanted to understand how power works because a lot of the nonprofits that I was working with, we they had no power. And I thought, how does power work? How do these systems work? And so um, yeah, I I ended up having an unexpected career.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and it it probably all started with just randomly building a mobile game app when I had absolutely no experience and no qualifications to do so.

SPEAKER_05

Sometimes that's the best way for things to happen though, right?

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. I think so. I I learned a huge amount from it, and it was also just one of those things where I look back, it was so pure. It was just, I was so passionate about it. I sold my car, I put my life savings into it. I um I moved back home with mum and dad so I could afford it. I was running Garage sales and I was selling things to, you know, to to try to pay for for building this app. And like I would sell, I'd try to sell my family belongings and um I had little like I had a little piggy bank set up at my parents' house and at my family members' house um so that they could put coins in it and it was just to me to go to me so that I could fund my charity. Like it was just Nat's donation tin. Um so yeah, I was just I was I believed in it so much and I just I loved that feeling. And that's how I felt with my book as well, where it was just it felt so pure to do I I I loved doing it, and it was such a gift for myself, but I really, I really truly believed in it. I believed that it could make the world a better place and and I believed it did good in the world, and it was, yeah, it was a really special project. So I'm glad I got to start my environmental career out that way.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I mean, we're pretty glad you started your career that way, and that you come right through and and you know written a book that's clearly had some real gravitas. Is that sense of humour and that approach to connecting resonating beyond Australia? And and how are you seeing different audiences engage with that material? Yeah, um, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_04

It is that so far, um, so far the humor has translated. Um I think namely UK is where it's um being marketed most heavily at the moment or um or or getting the most readership. And so I think we we probably share some um, I guess it's our approach to humor um with the Brits. But um it it it's doing it's doing really well and it's getting such a um I mean I I I just never expected this to be honest. I I really didn't, and it's it's been such a joy. The people that are reaching out to me are so diverse. I mean, um school kids and teachers, I've had tradies reach out, lots of bird watchers. Um, they particularly like the final bird watching um chapter.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, it is it there is a lot of love for bird watchers in this book, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, there is, which also wasn't wasn't really intentional, but um, I think as I was writing it, I was like, God, these, I mean, they are a great source source of hope.

SPEAKER_04

But um, it's it's had and it's got like scientists read and so what I what I wanted to do and what I was m most scared about was I wanted to write a book that would do service to the environmental community, to people like you, um, that would almost pay tribute to your work, that would that could be read by scientists and you know, and they would like it, um, and which is hard because scientists agree on uh disagree on a lot of things, but there would also um be appealing to a mainstream audience. And and so far it's it's been able to achieve that. And that's what I'm I'm so proud of that because I have had people reach out that are just from that, you know, usually wouldn't read a book and especially wouldn't read an environmental book.

SPEAKER_03

I think I mean that really stood out to me in reading the book. I thought I was going to be reading a book about nature, and I got about 90 pages in and realized this book was also a love letter to the environmentalists in all their different forms and uh from five-year-olds who are volunteering to collect money to donate to people who are um, you know, creating huge systems change around the world. And the stories that you gathered are pretty amazing, and there's a lot in there that was totally new to me. But I think the thing that I um loved about this, and obviously I'm saying this as the CEO of a women and gender-diverse community of environmental leaders, but I was really surprised at how strong the gender lens was in this book. Was this a deliberate lens from you, or did this just evolve naturally in the material?

SPEAKER_04

Uh, a little bit of both. Um, it was deliberately, I mean, because it is a particular passion area of mine, but also because I'm just the nature of my work. I work with uh so many incredible women, women like you, that I I I personally feel are either underrecognized or underserved or undercredited. And um, and I also, but even just with researching the book, you can't miss it. You can't miss the fact that um there are I I was trying to find information on species and even looking at species, it it it felt sexist. There was I I couldn't get information on the females of species. Well, lucky you pulled up the snake's clitoris. I love also if you just say that with no context, it's even better.

SPEAKER_03

Excellent. Let's just leave it there then. And that's a hook, right? Audience, go read the book. Go read the book.

SPEAKER_04

It is, it's it's remarkable. The women and also just the people I was interviewing. I mean, I interviewed a 12-year-old girl who made a promise to an owl um that she would protect it, um, to the Tasmanian masked owl, and she spends her days after school walking adults through the forest to teach them about it and show them why it's important to protect. And she's also a citizen scientist for the Bob Brown Foundation. And, you know, I interviewed a woman who is a wildlife carer and rescuer, and she spent Christmas Eve dangling upside down from inside a storm water drain. Um, you know, I sp interviewed women that sued the government um to protect future generations, women that started mass movements for the environment, um, who, you know, have just dedicated their lives to caring for the community. And we don't hear these stories, we don't hear these women's names, we we don't know anything about them, um, and they often do it voluntarily. Um, and so how can I not talk about them?

SPEAKER_03

And this is what we exist to do, and your book just centered that story so powerfully.

SPEAKER_04

I think it's also it shows how we have devalued a a lot of the traits and qualities that have historically been associated with women. Um, I mean, and and and that's what I try to highlight in this book as well, because we we um when we study species, um, we we try to um associate some of their traits with with human traits. And so, like the theory of evolution, which underpins most of what we know about humanity today, that was based on, you know, Charles Darwin looking at certain species, um, but he only really looked at the male of a species, which means we've only really got this male lens and male species lens. And what these there's this new stream of female scientists are now looking at um the females of a species, and they are looking at qualities like empathy and collaboration and community building and care and knowledge sharing and saying, oh, okay, actually these qualities are crucial for a species survival. Why aren't we acknowledging them? Um, and I and I think that we're seeing this even in the care economy or with women's role in the workforce or with these um women that are wildlife carers, that they are demonstrating these extraordinary um traits that we don't value in society, but we need them as a species to survive and thrive. Um, and so I hope it makes us re-evaluate what we prioritize and what skills and qualities we prioritize in society. I don't think we're seeing enough of it at the moment.

SPEAKER_02

You've talked a little bit about how the book was an ode to environmental work and environmentalists, and and you've also talked elsewhere about how compared to other social movements, the environmental movement has been slow to gain momentum. What do you think is missing? It's it's something I completely agree with and see in this work, but I'm very curious, all the research that you've done, what what do you think are the ingredients that are missing?

SPEAKER_04

Well, I I think that fundamentally what we need for environmental progress, um, it it involves a really large scale shift of systems and a really large scale shifts in um in global power dynamics. And so um we have a few challenges. One is that um there are very powerful forces who uh do not want those systems shifts to take place um because that will mean that they are, I guess, um have a have a different or lesser role in society, according to them. Um but another is that I I I think that at times the environmental movement can almost um consume itself. It it we get um we we are very values-led, but we get caught up in perhaps um bickering with one another about what the right approach is, um, that we actually aren't able to form a really coordinated um force to um take on some of these massive challenges and challenges. So for example, we have um, you know, the f fossil fuel interests, they have a really singular strong voice. There are like five major points that come out um to to diminish the environmental movement. They do it well, they um they have lots of money behind it. They're basically all in agreement in the key points, and they have just um pushed those for decades um with with a lot of coordination. Uh and we have been um, I guess, overwhelmed, under-resourced, unsure about the different going in, you know, a myriad of different directions, people trying to tackle um different issues. So I am and what I was trying to do with this book is is really ground us in we need to focus on systems change and we also need to focus on community-led change.

SPEAKER_02

It's a really important point that you raise, though, the the sort of fragmentation that happens within the movement. I work in renewables and um it's yeah, you see it often. Um, it feels like sometimes we're battling against each other rather than the other interests on the other side.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And how often do we go to events where you'll hear um it's a room full of people who all largely agree with each other on what the major challenges are. Um, and we will listen to things like climate change is bad. Um, you know, um, and they'll and we'll listen to scientists talk about how bad things are, and then we'll talk about how important the case what the case for change is. But we are preaching to the choir. We are all sitting in a room together, agreeing with one another, telling At each other, how bad things are. And so I wonder whether there is more opportunity to bring others along. And that's not necessarily, you know, people climate deniers along, but it is people that might be on the fence or feeling disenfranchised by the environmental movement or feeling fearful that, you know, renewable energy might not be good for their livelihoods or so on. So it I just wonder if there are ways for us to embed more empathy and better communication with people that might not necessarily agree with us 100%.

SPEAKER_05

To ask something that maybe is speaking to the moment we exist in right now and the global fuel crisis and the war in the Middle East. What are your thoughts on the impacts of this moment in time and perhaps the opportunities for the climate movement?

SPEAKER_02

And storytelling in general.

SPEAKER_04

So a few things. I I think what we're seeing at the moment is a um a little bit of an unveiling, um, where we have had that there's these harmful systems in place, and we are now seeing that um, and that they've always operated the like the economy has always operated the way it does. So have um so politics, like modern politics, modern economics, um inequality has always existed. And but now I think people are actually witnessing quite just how bad it is. Um, and I think more and more people are agreeing that this situation is untenable. The economy is not working for most people. Um, the environment doesn't feel safe for most people. And so I think we have actually more people that can join the movement if we learn how to communicate to them effectively. Um, I do think there is a change in the international order, especially in the international environmental order, we are seeing the diminishing um of some of you know these key international institutions, particularly the United Nations. Um, I I think that um while I do think it is, I I don't want to see a dismantling of the UN, I do think it has been um it was overdue for um some some changes um to ensure it was having maximum impact. Um, I I think we are seeing, you know, we're going to see a rise in renewables. And I think we're seeing it, you're seeing now, I mean, some of the the big big fossil fuel organizations, they are really scrambling to change their messaging. Um, and because we are having increasing um conversation in Australia and and quite widespread support for, say, taxing taxes on gas companies, um, we're having quite widespread support for um these gas companies paying their fair share for um everyday Australians and everyday people being quite disenfranchised. Um, and there is a lot of mistrust in these sort of in big monopolies and and and big organizations. And so I I see a real shift here where people are thinking, okay, well, renewables are going to be cheaper. They are going to be less exposed to geopolitical shocks. Um, and we can find, I guess, some areas where that we can agree on with people of you know different political persuasions, and that is largely rooted in um livelihoods and living standards. So um I I do see some changes, and I'm I I I think there is promise.

SPEAKER_03

I really hope for that opportunity as well. I'm also just really aware that this has come out of a really terrible war with terrible destruction for people. And um it feels yeah, there's just this tension sitting there um around the human consequences of the process that's getting us here, as well as recognizing the crisis creates opportunity. And that's just a lot that I know a lot of communities are sitting with as well. And obviously, the slower we are in actioning, the more likely we are to see future conflicts as well. So um it's a really um, really challenging time in how all of these issues intersect with one another.

SPEAKER_04

And also, even just, I mean, war, and and something I don't think we talk about enough in general is um war. I mean, the the human costs of war and the environmental costs. So war produces obscene amounts of pollution and um the air, for example, the air in Lebanon and Iran um became a chemical weapon. So the the air turned into a chemical weapon. Black rain was falling from the sky and contamination was seeping into lungs. So this is, I mean, we're we're talking about um not not just immediate impacts from a devastating um you know attack or uh war, it's long-standing environmental damage and um and and lasting impacts on on human health. And we don't talk about how military emissions are largely invisible, that we we we don't we don't count um these these large sort of military or institutional emission uh emissions. Um so we don't really know the scale of the challenges. So um, yeah, I I I think I I think this is, I mean, trying to find opportunities. It seems grotesque to try to find opportunities or reasons for hope when you're in the midst of war, but I I mean that's all we have to hang on to, right?

SPEAKER_03

You I mean, I completely agree. And you're touching into the theme of this work and this podcast on that exact tension that we hold. How do we hold and find joy when the world around us is burning? And you know, the commitment to that is essential. Um, Natalie, it probably doesn't surprise you given the name of this podcast, that one of the ways that we think joy is often experienced is through dancing. I'm wondering, Natalie, do you dance? And if so, what is one of your best dancing experiences?

SPEAKER_04

I mean, I I would I would usually I would dance at home, either like before or after I get in the shower. So it's um I'm trying to think what my best dancing experience is. Um Do you know I used to go? I mean, I don't know, this is probably crude. I used to go to this football club when I was 18, 19 with all of my friends, and then we had these fancy dress parties, and I'm pretty sure I like I dressed up as um Tom Cruise in Risky Business. Oh yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Does that count as a dance?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Yeah, as long as you did the floor slide. I did, I did do the floor slide, and I was so injured the next day.

SPEAKER_03

Um Dance injury. We have not had enough dance injury stories. I'm glad you brought that up, Natalie, because I feel like this is going to feature a little more now.

SPEAKER_05

It doubles down on the tension of joy and discomfort as well.

SPEAKER_03

It shows the level of commitment of the dancer if they uh are unable to escape the consequences of their moves for several.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. Yeah. Okay, great. I well, I was very committed in that case.

SPEAKER_03

I also love that you're dancing in the shower on a daily basis because I feel like given the work you're doing and the heaviness that that's holding, that's probably very needed. I hope it is bringing you a lot of joy.

SPEAKER_04

Yes, there is lots of um, I like to put I have lots of laughter and lots of dancing and singing in my life that um yeah, that still persists even on the really hard days.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, well, Natalie, it's been such a joy to have you to come and have this tin wag. I know you have been battling a pretty hectic schedule with your book tour. So we really appreciate you squeezing us in for a conversation, even if you might be in a caravan park. We adore you. Really grateful for the work that you do, and we can't wait to read your next book. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it was such a privilege. Thank you for all of the work that you do, and thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_05

Well, I think it was worth the wait to pin down Natalie for the conversation. She is nothing but a joy. Um, tell me, Vic, what did you take from that conversation?

SPEAKER_03

I love that she is like the book. Her tone of voice in the book is her tone of voice when she speaks as well. The anecdotes are so real to her. The research has been really thorough. That's uh that was another part I just loved. There were so many stories. You can keep coming back to it. There's bits you can share, and um it's so authentically her. It's such a nice voice in the space, and it is hard to have hopeful positive stories that are authentic, that aren't don't feel like they're bright siding, you know, a pretty rubbish scenario. And she just does that um in celebrating nature and celebrating people so well. I just I really liked how real that felt.

SPEAKER_02

I totally agree. It really did feel like hearing her relay some of the stories in the book. I was reading it again because it you get her voice so strongly. So I understand when she says that her family and friends say the book is you.

SPEAKER_03

Like, yeah, I believe that too.

SPEAKER_02

I totally get it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah and it does make me, I mean, you know, it's a trite thing to say, isn't it? Like, oh, can't wait for your next book. But we we need these books, so I'm I am excited. What is the next one? And um, yeah, there's so much work here to be done in that storytelling space, and those voices that can connect to different audiences are pretty rare, actually.

SPEAKER_02

And I think I think one thing that she does in the book when she talks about specific examples, it's not just about hope. She also taps into this thing about feeling like I felt reading some of those examples, I felt shame for humanity. Like I was just like, why are we like this? Why do we do this? But she does it in this beautiful way where you feel that you're you're simultaneously part of the solution. And I think that is the magic of how she has crafted each of those chapters and stories.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I think there's so many um quotable quotes in her work, you know, like which makes it translatable, makes it you able to talk to someone about it at the water cooler or at the pub or at the school pickup. It's like those conversational pieces at work. And I think um she talks to that point specifically about how humans are the only species that are arguing over protecting the environment that they depend upon. And you're just like, yeah, God, this is awkward. But there's so many different like moments where I think um she also speaks to the value of community and how community is integral to how we'll get through this. And there was another quote that I'd seen in her work of um that uh we should be using our timber to build longer tables rather than higher walls. And it's just those quotes that that like being a writer by trade and having that skill to really tell stories is you know, obviously something that it is naturally a skill set. It's also something she has studied and worked incredibly hard at. And it really again speaks to how important it is for us to think very, very deeply about how we bring people into the conversation and widen the church around the movement so that people feel safe to engage and don't feel alienated.

SPEAKER_03

It's also nice to see someone just really sitting in their skill with it because, you know, we need everybody, we need all the different skills. We need people who are amazing actuaries or biologists or manufacturers and storytellers. And, you know, bring your best self, bring what you can do that no one else can. And here's someone just fully sitting in this is my bit, I can do this, and we can all like admire it because it's pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_02

And I think the the the last question that you asked, Odette, about the moment that we're living in the fuel crisis, the war in the Middle East, and Vic, your point about um you know, this is there are real human consequences, and Natalie's point about environmental consequences, we're not even counting. But when I think about movements for change, like it is those moments that you are able to really galvanize new voices and interest because there is a moment, and uh where we were at with Black Summer, I I often wonder what would have happened to that moment in Australia if COVID had not hit a couple of months later.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. Well, we saw we saw the momentum, we saw student strikes rising, those fires and that level of public concern reaching all sorts of different audiences speaking up. Yeah, and it and um COVID became the the national story, the global story.

SPEAKER_02

And that and I think like the lesson and danger is we live in such an uncertain time right now that the next thing is around the corner and we don't know what it's going to be. And if we let moments like this slip, they slip.

SPEAKER_05

Well, that's another episode behind us. Thanks to my fellow hosts, Victoria Mackenzie McCaughe and Saniaya Kistie, and thank you to our wonderful guests, Natalie Kiriaku and Dr. Kylie Soones. Today's episode of There Will Be Dancing was produced by Matt Siegel from Green Thumb Media. And podcast themed music is by Alice Ivey. Until next time, we hope you enjoy your dancing.